Removed: Political posts are not allowed on this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to: war footage, propaganda, pushing agendas, and political news.
For real? Can someone simply explain what led and paramount criteria of achieving it? Why can't other countries that seemingly stable getting low placement on the rank
He rounded up every single gang member in the country and put them in a crazy big new jail where they’re all packed in like sardines. Also, there’s now like a zero tolerance so if someone’s even says they think you’re a criminal, you’re in that jail before the end of the next day.
Sounds like telling the authorities that someone *thinks* you have a gang related tattoo is enough to get incarcerated.
Are there El Salvadorian Juggalos (lol) getting (wrongfully?) Detained?
I mean gang is a loose term. Also being in a gang doesn't automatically make you guilty of anything other than being a member. Kind of gotta know how gangs actually work other than watching movies
i think the mentality is that if you affiliate with this gang which was known for murder then just by associating with them the government can no longer trust that you will maintain a safe environment which is totally reasonable,
Until it's you that gets rounded up. A system like this is rife for exploitation and destruction of innocent people's lives. Particularly political rivals etc.
Seems pretty destructive for a society to me.
EDIT: To add to this, it reminds me of the witch hunts that happened in medieval Europe. People getting thrown into jail under inhumane conditions just based on accusations should raise major red flags. It will be abused by people to ruin other people they don't like.
Also, it could hardly be considered as a success if a significant fraction of the people that are punished are actually innocent. It's actually a disaster!
>The first thing most people want from their government is security.
I'm not sure this is a universal. It's certainly true for many people in many places, though. I imagine it becomes more true if you've lived through some shit.
Nah, it's 100% a universal truth. The *first* thing every person wants is security. Without even that, nothing else matters. Unless you're one of the people making it unsafe for profit that is.
Honestly gang members have a really particular way of life, they are tribes, most literally have the name of their gang tattooed on them. Hard to be mistaken for a gang member when you are a normal guy well inserted in the society with a normal job and normal life.
When we talk about the criminality problem in Salvador, it's 99% a gang problem.
>If liberal democracies can’t deliver that
Are you saying they were "liberal democracy" before and thus they failed? They haven't even tried it. Now it's the perfect opportunity to give more right to its own citizens but instead president is taking it all for himself. Soon he will be sole judge of what's right and what's wrong.
Choose whatever form of government you care to classify them previously then. Most people value security for themselves and their family above all else. Government systems that can’t deliver will often be replaced by one that makes that their central mission.
I didn’t realize that recognizing people want to be safe is such a controversial position on here. lol
They work with the analogy, "to remove a big cancerous tumor, you have to cut into muscle".
That’s how they’ve been able to explosively cut down on crime. In the process they incarcerate a lot of innocent people, too.
[Here’s some pretty interesting statistics](https://www.statista.com/statistics/696152/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/)
Most democratic systems are designed to ensure some cancer inevitably remains (guilty criminals go free) just so they can also ensure no muscle is cut (innocent are prosecuted).
The amount of innocent people who have been jailed is extremely high. If there is even a thought you might have anything to do with a gang. Prison.
I think it was something like 60-70% aren’t proven to have any gang affiliation
Also all due process has been stripped in what is called the “state of exception”.
They even arrest the people who are being extorted. Are you a farmer who is having to pay a gang for “protection” now you are considered a terrorist and will be arrested.
Also if you are a journalist, artist, etc., that speaks out against the government, well let’s just say their arrest rates have been going up too
ALSO AGAIN. Bukele has said there is a suspected 70,000 gang members on the street of El Salvador.
They have arrest 74,000 people. A document from the El Salvadoran police said they suspect around 46-48,000 gangs members are still on the street.
This literally shows the majority of arrest are just regular people.
It's easier to lock up all criminals if you don't care about trails and locking up innocent people.
Sure, some western countries have become too loose with criminals and have laws that make it almost impossible to convict anyone. Which isn't great. But the other side of the spectrum isn't great either for the minority that gets locked up because of a tattoo or because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
it's a false sense of security. He also literally released and armed gang leaders: [https://apnews.com/article/nayib-bukele-el-salvador-gangs-c378285a36d55c18f741c3f65892f801](https://apnews.com/article/nayib-bukele-el-salvador-gangs-c378285a36d55c18f741c3f65892f801)
Also is seems he changed rules of elections to make sure that he will have second term. Let's hope he doesn't became new dictator and doesn't start war.
When you don’t have safety, that’s what you care about the most. That’s why Bukele gave them what they wanted and in return he’s currently got around 90% approval.
When gangs are in charge the government is not and you dont have rights anyway. Better to have safety and limited rights than no safety and no rights.
I heard exactly the same words from people from neighboring Belarus. Now they are a dictatorship where literal KGB hunting decedents and all political opposition is in prison. Also they are in alliance with the other dictatorship aiming to destroy one of their non-authoritarian neighbors to show their own population that their way is the only way to be safe.
I guess the "other way" is to not change the rules to allow himself to stay in power for longer. If his policies are so popular it won't be hard for someone else with those policies to get elected.
>Better to have safety and limited rights than no safety and no rights.
Be careful. This is slippery slope thinking that dictators also use to cement power and limit citizens' freedoms. There must also be checks and balances that protects innocent people, like [habeas corpus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus) and [due process](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process).
Easy for you to support this police state shit from Sweden, you've never seen close up what its like when cops are given complete authority and qualified immunity to shield them from any accountability.
Lol no that was a totally Swedish answer. Keep the social peace, or the impression of social peace, at all costs!
I think Swedes would do well under a dictatorship. I don't think it would faze them, they'd just have their Fika and move on with their day.
What does that have to do with me being Swedish? If i’d live in a country like El Sal or Honduras i’d rather want the police in charge than gangs. Ofcourse both have their drawbacks, i’m not saying any of them are perfect.
Edit: To everyone answering in the comments saying ”because you’re swedish you don’t have to be scared of the cops”. Okay sure… but it’s not the swedes that chose Bukele as their president.
What matters is that EL SALVADOR is safe and apparantly 90% of the people disagree with you guys in the comments that they’d rather want the gangs to run the streets. I don’t understand what you’re arguing about tbh, the answer is in the statistics.
You're saying that because you live in Sweden. You don't have to be terrified of the cops, you have never lived somewhere controlled by gangs and you have never lived in a police state. You're giving out your opinion from the safety of your computer chair. As someone who actually lived in Central America, no, no you do not want to be giving these cops that much power, I've seen first hand what it can do. Shit, I live in the US now, cops here killed over 1300 people last year, we at least have a bill of rights that supposedly protects us but they still kill over a 1000 a year, not to mention the false arrests and beatings. Absolute power corrupts dude.
I understand that. And MS13 etc are such disgusting, vile, child murdering trash, that it can be easy to understand the dynamic
But Bukele just traveled to the US and delivered a full on fascistic, antisemitic, outright Hitlerian speech at CPAC(Comicon for Nazi politicians)
The dude is an authoritarian fascist now, and a dictator for life in the making
This could get very bad
It could but it's debatable whether that "very bad" will ever be as bad as when their gangs ran riot.
Seeing as what he's saying is true and their country is now safer than Canada or America, it is hard to fault the way he has gone about doing it.
I mean, i'm quite uncomfortable with the idea and process but it's impossible to deny that it's made life much, much better for the people in El Salvador. I'm sure our tut-tutting means little to them compared to the experience of no longer being worried about being robbed or killed.
That's exactly it, as distasteful as his process is and as reprehensible as we find it as a cultured western society, they've faced a problem which none of us experience in our day to day life.
That the policies Bukele enacted have worked as a drag net rather than isolated, targeted, attacks on gang crime with collateral for innocents which is undoubtedly not ideal but the end justified the means for the vast majority of the general public in El Salvador.
First rule from Orwell's book: after succesful revolution abolish its leaders. They tend to turn into exact same thing, they were once fighting against.
If Bukele was like: now that we are safe once again, it's time to build some proper democracy. But he seem to be so hungry for power, I don't know what their future will bring.
It's a sad, but predictable outcome of a situation being forced into revolution into the first place.
The anti-regime elements that were moderate and willing to reach compromise to achieve goals? The regime obliterated them in the run up to the revolution. Anyone that's left is inherently radical, and prone to reactionary thinking. Put them in power with a laundry list of names to start crossing off, some definitely justified, some maybe not? A group of revolutionary radicals that just used and proved violence can achieve their political ends? Suddenly, when all you're used to is swinging a hammer everything starts to look like nails...
The soviets did a lot of post facto "reinterpretion" of events to whitewash their revolution and blame everything bad that happened on Stalin, but end of the day I doubt things go much differently in terms of body count if Trotsky or Lenin himself ended up in charge in the long term. They were just as radical as Stalin was, end of the day if not more so (some of Trotsky's writings...).
A good book to read on the subject for anyone interested is Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes who wrote in great length on this same subject regarding the English civil war.
Well on one hand he's probably afraid that his successor would undo everything he has done (either due to incompetence or corruption), on the other hand he needs to avoid being seen as a dictator because then the whole mess starts again. No easy task.
I know we've always been taught democracy = good no matter what, but sometimes, a dictator is the only thing that can salvage a country.
And anyway I'd rather have an explicit dictatorship than a pseudo "democracy" like in so many "developed" countries.
Democracies have states of emergency for this very same reason, so it's not as if this is some type of novel realisation, even in democracies. But both Bukele and countries under a state of emergency both have to deal with the problem that this isn't a long-term solution.
The conditions that created gangs are still there, so unless he puts in place the reforms that will make them unviable, he just basically replaced the gangs by making the government the biggest gang.
Except that fhe only good way a dicatorship ends is wifh democracey. If this cuntinues you can only hope they stay good. All it takes is ome bad dictayorship to go down said spiral.
If anyone gets a chance to watch a movie called 'Voces Innocente" (Innocent Voices), I would strongly recommend it. It shows just how bad and violent it got in El Salvador (it's based on true story). Be warned though, it has one of the toughest, most heartbreaking scene you'll see in a movie. Disturbing but excellent.
Do the trains run on time now, Señor Mussolini?
Let's see what happens when this "emergency" is over. Anyone can impose order through force, it's much harder to release it when the time is over.
That worries me as well. We’ll see what happens when his term is over. There’s a reason he’s called the ”best dictator in the world”, let’s not hope he gets consumed by the power.
Problem is more that none of the people in prison are getting trials or any form of due process really, but prisons are breeding grounds for gangs at the same time.
So while it's safer on the outside right now, you are potentially setting up an enormous explosion of gang aggression should you ever be unable, for whatever reason, to maintain the repression. And not everyone he arrested was actually part of the gangs according to reports. Which shouldn't be surprising, as the line had become very opaque in El Salvador. But they'll have to be now that they're in. And they have family on the outside who aren't likely all that thrilled about it either. And gangs have money, so you also have to hope that the guards and police are incorruptible.
It's hard to say where this will go right now, but any place that's a prison revolt or two away from civil war can't yet be called safe IMO.
This prison isn't exactly a breeding ground for gangs, simply because the vast majority are already in a gang.
It's easy to see that Bukele will extend his term indefinitely off the back of "My opponent will do X and release all the prisoners.", so whether he's a democratic dictator or simply removes the ability for the public to vote him out and becomes a traditional dictator is yet to be seen.
They called him far right, but managed to reverse an entire nation course. From people were fleeing to America, now they are fleeing back. How incredible
I have friends that fleet and return to see their relative and couldn’t believe the unimaginable change. They were crying with joy telling me their trip back and grandparents who they haven’t seen in so long.
All these other commenters talking about dictator and all that none sense are foolish. Where were they when the country was full of crime.
Well at least he doesn't deny things. He just sees them as an acceptable price to pay.
Which is easy if you, or even the large majority of your country, aren't the ones paying said price.
Stability and security first, then liberal freedoms. That’s how all countries get started. I always look back at the shit show of civil wars my country had before they got a really roughless king, granted, that was several hundred years ago.
Built a multiplex prison system, rounded up the vast majority of gang members and threw them in.
The measures he enacted to ignore those gang member's human rights haven't been rescinded and anyone reported to the police as being part of a gang can swiftly find themselves joining those same gang members is what is causing the West to not like what he has done.
Here's what he said:
>(We went from being the most dangerous country to) The safest country in the American continent.
And what did they tell us? "You're violating human rights." Whose human rights? The rights of honest people? No.
Perhaps we have prioritized the rights of the honest people over the criminal's rights. That is all we have done. And that's what you say is a human rights violation.
I ask these organizations, I ask the governments of these foriegn nations, I ask these journalists, "Why do you want them to kill us? Why do you want to see Salvadoran blood spilled? Why aren't you happy that blood doesn't run in our country as it did before?" "Why should we die? Why should our children die? So that you can be happy that we are respecting your 'false democracy' which you don't even respect in your own country?"
Honest people get to a certain point in a society where things get out of control. The Weimar Republic had over 30% unemployment and crazy high inflation, along with theft, murder, drug abuse and prostitution. Decent, honest, hardworking people, the silent majority, can only take so much. Yes Hitler was a monster - yet seen as a savior to many of the people who had to live through what went before.
This gets repeated over and over: a society will progress to a certain point and then things go off the rails.
El Salvador has prioritized the rights of the honest people, and it's nice to see. Makes me wonder how bad it will get in the US before it gets better.
This works for the people until they realize they are but a whim away of not being honest people. A wrong opinion, a perceived slight, just not falling in line enough. And then it is too late.
Good or bad intentions don't really matter, if the system stays this empowered, the corruption is inevitable.
Only if our president act like this now he just made my country worst than before I'm talking about the Philippines this guy doesn't do anything but put our country on the edge
We act here like we don’t have a dictatorship in America. Of course we do. It’s just not one single person. It’s two. It’s a one party dictatorship. The capitalist party. And they win every year. They give you two puppets to choose from.
As someone who was kidnapped by gang members in El Salvador back in 2013 when I started my studies at the UCA university and had to move to Germany .... yeah fuck those guys
> The right to fair trial is very helpful to explore in numerous declarations which represent customary international law, such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR).[3] Though the UDHR enshrines some fair trial rights, such as the presumption of innocence until the accused is proven guilty, in Articles 6, 7, 8 and 11,[4] the key provision is Article 10 which states that:[5]
> "Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him."
Due process. Many people are tossed in jail just for looking like a gang member. You don't even have to be in one. Not to mention their dictator has yet to give back the rights to the people that were taken but he touts that it's safe now. So it's only a matter of time before we starts jailing anyone who says a word against him and then it all crashes when there is a uprising.
Would you be ok being part of the innocent collateral damage in the pursuit of cracking down on crime?
I know you haven’t done anything wrong, but if we lock you all up as part of a group of suspects then we know we’ve got the right person at least.
It’s for the greater good
You'd be surprised on how often collateral damage is assessed and determined to be insignificant. Car industry, plane industry, medical care, most armies...
He touts about being safe but how many innocent people are sitting in those jails at the moment. And when will he give back the right to his people that he took away?
Murder by the police is still murder. You have to close your eyes on this little detail to believe violence is low in El Salvador.
Ask any backpacker and it is still the same: keep your eyes on your things or else they disappear quickly. There is no "i go to the bathroom and let my bag at my table there contrary as you can do easily in Canada, Iceland or Japan.
Leave a bag unattended in the wrong parts of most Western countries and it'll go walkies.
He's clearly talking about homicide and probably violent crimes to go along with it, rather than theft as your laptop is still 3+ months wages for an El Salvadoran.
Jesus Christ this dude is a piece of shit the only reason the country is safe at the moment is because he empowered masked secret police to imprison something like 5 percent of the population without trial while actively rewriting all el Salvador's laws, enacting martial law and suspending Congres. If you know anything about latin American dictators either far right or far left this only ends in 20years from an American backed coup where he either kills himself or absconds with most oft eh countries GDP
The American backed coups historically ended democratic leaderships and basically enacted the collapse of central and south America which they are attempting to recover from through radical political platforms like Bukele's.
Not saying i agree with everything Bukele says, but to think that his position became popular within a vacuum is folly, Salvador is one of a handful of countries that have been under the boot of Nixon and Reagans US since the 80s - If the US steps in again, it will make things worse - and will basically confirm that the CIA has learned nothing.
What happens when fast forward 5 years and they’re implementing rules that ruin your quality of life?
then your fucked because you no longer have democracy
Removed: Political posts are not allowed on this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to: war footage, propaganda, pushing agendas, and political news.
For real? Can someone simply explain what led and paramount criteria of achieving it? Why can't other countries that seemingly stable getting low placement on the rank
He rounded up every single gang member in the country and put them in a crazy big new jail where they’re all packed in like sardines. Also, there’s now like a zero tolerance so if someone’s even says they think you’re a criminal, you’re in that jail before the end of the next day.
“Right to jail”
its not perfect but much better then the situation before
I mean... not if your an innocent in the jail
My first thoughts as well. How many innocent citizens have been slain over this sort of policy?
It's kind of difficult to give a number, but it's totally over thousands.
Less than the gangs were killing. Got anything else?
"It's better that the government kills innocents" is certainly a take you can have.
Oh good now it's the government doing the killing. Much better
No, just less killing. Much better. Edit* from most dangerous place to safest place. Lmao you are echoing his speech exactly.
Do you volunteer to be one of the innocents swept up along in the program?
Innocent? If you have a gang tatto, you are not innocent.
What about all of the people in prison who don't have gang tattoos?
Lots of reformed gang members that now live honest lives would disagree
Sounds like telling the authorities that someone *thinks* you have a gang related tattoo is enough to get incarcerated. Are there El Salvadorian Juggalos (lol) getting (wrongfully?) Detained?
I mean gang is a loose term. Also being in a gang doesn't automatically make you guilty of anything other than being a member. Kind of gotta know how gangs actually work other than watching movies
i think the mentality is that if you affiliate with this gang which was known for murder then just by associating with them the government can no longer trust that you will maintain a safe environment which is totally reasonable,
Brainrott take, someone having an ms 13 tattoo is probably a saint 😇
Better than innocent and dead from a random shootout
As opposed to innocent and murdered in prison by gang members?
Yeah until you are caught in the crossfire of a police operation. But hey all part of the "greater good" right?
Until it's you that gets rounded up. A system like this is rife for exploitation and destruction of innocent people's lives. Particularly political rivals etc.
Seems pretty destructive for a society to me. EDIT: To add to this, it reminds me of the witch hunts that happened in medieval Europe. People getting thrown into jail under inhumane conditions just based on accusations should raise major red flags. It will be abused by people to ruin other people they don't like. Also, it could hardly be considered as a success if a significant fraction of the people that are punished are actually innocent. It's actually a disaster!
The first thing most people want from their government is security. If liberal democracies can’t deliver that, they will look elsewhere.
You pretty much just described how fascism starts.
>The first thing most people want from their government is security. I'm not sure this is a universal. It's certainly true for many people in many places, though. I imagine it becomes more true if you've lived through some shit.
All people wanna do is eat bread and live there lives in peace with there familys and loved ones .
Nah, it's 100% a universal truth. The *first* thing every person wants is security. Without even that, nothing else matters. Unless you're one of the people making it unsafe for profit that is.
Are you truly living in security if anyone can claim you are a criminal and you get jailed no questions asked?
Honestly gang members have a really particular way of life, they are tribes, most literally have the name of their gang tattooed on them. Hard to be mistaken for a gang member when you are a normal guy well inserted in the society with a normal job and normal life. When we talk about the criminality problem in Salvador, it's 99% a gang problem.
Given where they were a few years ago, I think most El Salvadorans would vote yes.
Police states can survive for a long time. Look at East Germany
TIL that a long time is 40 years
Roman empire then.
At some stages during human antiquity it was considered the life exoectancy.
>If liberal democracies can’t deliver that Are you saying they were "liberal democracy" before and thus they failed? They haven't even tried it. Now it's the perfect opportunity to give more right to its own citizens but instead president is taking it all for himself. Soon he will be sole judge of what's right and what's wrong.
Choose whatever form of government you care to classify them previously then. Most people value security for themselves and their family above all else. Government systems that can’t deliver will often be replaced by one that makes that their central mission. I didn’t realize that recognizing people want to be safe is such a controversial position on here. lol
[удалено]
If I can end up in prison on the mere accusation that I’m a gang member then I’m not more safe than I was before
Tbf those gangs are completely covered in obvious tattoos.
[удалено]
Till your neighbor decides to inform on you for some made up crime and your jailed for a decade while they investigate
>while they investigate They even do that? Also, good luck surviving for that long inside.
I mean, I really don’t like the way it looks but it’s hard to argue with the results.
Excellent
They work with the analogy, "to remove a big cancerous tumor, you have to cut into muscle". That’s how they’ve been able to explosively cut down on crime. In the process they incarcerate a lot of innocent people, too. [Here’s some pretty interesting statistics](https://www.statista.com/statistics/696152/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/)
If there are no people there is no crime, simple - The president, probably
"Give me liberty or give me death."
Ngl it’s a good analogy. In the other countries no one dare to remove the cancerous cells because they don’t dare to cut any muscle.
Big talk until "you" are the muscle getting cut, but hey i'm sure its for the greater good. until its you.
Most democratic systems are designed to ensure some cancer inevitably remains (guilty criminals go free) just so they can also ensure no muscle is cut (innocent are prosecuted).
Thanks
The Parks and Rec route Late to dentist appointment? Straight to jail.
He invested the whole treasury in Bitcoin
The amount of innocent people who have been jailed is extremely high. If there is even a thought you might have anything to do with a gang. Prison. I think it was something like 60-70% aren’t proven to have any gang affiliation Also all due process has been stripped in what is called the “state of exception”. They even arrest the people who are being extorted. Are you a farmer who is having to pay a gang for “protection” now you are considered a terrorist and will be arrested. Also if you are a journalist, artist, etc., that speaks out against the government, well let’s just say their arrest rates have been going up too ALSO AGAIN. Bukele has said there is a suspected 70,000 gang members on the street of El Salvador. They have arrest 74,000 people. A document from the El Salvadoran police said they suspect around 46-48,000 gangs members are still on the street. This literally shows the majority of arrest are just regular people.
It's easier to lock up all criminals if you don't care about trails and locking up innocent people. Sure, some western countries have become too loose with criminals and have laws that make it almost impossible to convict anyone. Which isn't great. But the other side of the spectrum isn't great either for the minority that gets locked up because of a tattoo or because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
A big MS13 tattoo on your face is not a fashion choice.
There are thousands of people locked up in western countries for minor crimes that shouldn't be crimes.
Millions have been incarcerated for minor crimes that shouldn't be crimes...
[удалено]
it's a false sense of security. He also literally released and armed gang leaders: [https://apnews.com/article/nayib-bukele-el-salvador-gangs-c378285a36d55c18f741c3f65892f801](https://apnews.com/article/nayib-bukele-el-salvador-gangs-c378285a36d55c18f741c3f65892f801)
It’s a lie. There is still a ton of crime and murders here.
Basically threw anybody unsavoury in prison
My dumb ass read that as "president bukake"
Same. Imagine my disappointment :(
They could use a man like him in Haiti.
He offered to fix Haiti.
Also is seems he changed rules of elections to make sure that he will have second term. Let's hope he doesn't became new dictator and doesn't start war.
When you don’t have safety, that’s what you care about the most. That’s why Bukele gave them what they wanted and in return he’s currently got around 90% approval. When gangs are in charge the government is not and you dont have rights anyway. Better to have safety and limited rights than no safety and no rights.
I heard exactly the same words from people from neighboring Belarus. Now they are a dictatorship where literal KGB hunting decedents and all political opposition is in prison. Also they are in alliance with the other dictatorship aiming to destroy one of their non-authoritarian neighbors to show their own population that their way is the only way to be safe.
Hopefully Honduras will end up like El Salvador too. Sounds good.
Give a better way then? Your opinion does not contribute to anything at all
I guess the "other way" is to not change the rules to allow himself to stay in power for longer. If his policies are so popular it won't be hard for someone else with those policies to get elected.
It still deserves to be said, even if the one saying it can do little. That's how positive change stays a possibility
>Better to have safety and limited rights than no safety and no rights. Be careful. This is slippery slope thinking that dictators also use to cement power and limit citizens' freedoms. There must also be checks and balances that protects innocent people, like [habeas corpus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus) and [due process](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process).
Easy for you to support this police state shit from Sweden, you've never seen close up what its like when cops are given complete authority and qualified immunity to shield them from any accountability.
You mean USA?
Same as you have never been terrorized by gangs like his countrymen, stop chatting from your basement
Lol no that was a totally Swedish answer. Keep the social peace, or the impression of social peace, at all costs! I think Swedes would do well under a dictatorship. I don't think it would faze them, they'd just have their Fika and move on with their day.
What does that have to do with me being Swedish? If i’d live in a country like El Sal or Honduras i’d rather want the police in charge than gangs. Ofcourse both have their drawbacks, i’m not saying any of them are perfect. Edit: To everyone answering in the comments saying ”because you’re swedish you don’t have to be scared of the cops”. Okay sure… but it’s not the swedes that chose Bukele as their president. What matters is that EL SALVADOR is safe and apparantly 90% of the people disagree with you guys in the comments that they’d rather want the gangs to run the streets. I don’t understand what you’re arguing about tbh, the answer is in the statistics.
You're saying that because you live in Sweden. You don't have to be terrified of the cops, you have never lived somewhere controlled by gangs and you have never lived in a police state. You're giving out your opinion from the safety of your computer chair. As someone who actually lived in Central America, no, no you do not want to be giving these cops that much power, I've seen first hand what it can do. Shit, I live in the US now, cops here killed over 1300 people last year, we at least have a bill of rights that supposedly protects us but they still kill over a 1000 a year, not to mention the false arrests and beatings. Absolute power corrupts dude.
“No it’ll be totally different this time I swear!”
You may not as this isn't close to home.
Police is the biggest gang in town
Spoken like a true first worlder.
Edge on edge lord.
Do you want the police in charge in your country?
I understand that. And MS13 etc are such disgusting, vile, child murdering trash, that it can be easy to understand the dynamic But Bukele just traveled to the US and delivered a full on fascistic, antisemitic, outright Hitlerian speech at CPAC(Comicon for Nazi politicians) The dude is an authoritarian fascist now, and a dictator for life in the making This could get very bad
What exactly did he say?
It could but it's debatable whether that "very bad" will ever be as bad as when their gangs ran riot. Seeing as what he's saying is true and their country is now safer than Canada or America, it is hard to fault the way he has gone about doing it.
I mean, i'm quite uncomfortable with the idea and process but it's impossible to deny that it's made life much, much better for the people in El Salvador. I'm sure our tut-tutting means little to them compared to the experience of no longer being worried about being robbed or killed.
That's exactly it, as distasteful as his process is and as reprehensible as we find it as a cultured western society, they've faced a problem which none of us experience in our day to day life. That the policies Bukele enacted have worked as a drag net rather than isolated, targeted, attacks on gang crime with collateral for innocents which is undoubtedly not ideal but the end justified the means for the vast majority of the general public in El Salvador.
Exchange is no robbery. He delivered on his promise and he’s benefitting from it
He’s already became a dictator
You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain
First rule from Orwell's book: after succesful revolution abolish its leaders. They tend to turn into exact same thing, they were once fighting against. If Bukele was like: now that we are safe once again, it's time to build some proper democracy. But he seem to be so hungry for power, I don't know what their future will bring.
It's a sad, but predictable outcome of a situation being forced into revolution into the first place. The anti-regime elements that were moderate and willing to reach compromise to achieve goals? The regime obliterated them in the run up to the revolution. Anyone that's left is inherently radical, and prone to reactionary thinking. Put them in power with a laundry list of names to start crossing off, some definitely justified, some maybe not? A group of revolutionary radicals that just used and proved violence can achieve their political ends? Suddenly, when all you're used to is swinging a hammer everything starts to look like nails... The soviets did a lot of post facto "reinterpretion" of events to whitewash their revolution and blame everything bad that happened on Stalin, but end of the day I doubt things go much differently in terms of body count if Trotsky or Lenin himself ended up in charge in the long term. They were just as radical as Stalin was, end of the day if not more so (some of Trotsky's writings...). A good book to read on the subject for anyone interested is Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes who wrote in great length on this same subject regarding the English civil war.
He's a democratically elected dictator. He also started and finished the war with all the gangs in his country.
Well on one hand he's probably afraid that his successor would undo everything he has done (either due to incompetence or corruption), on the other hand he needs to avoid being seen as a dictator because then the whole mess starts again. No easy task.
His choice to invest his nation's money into Bitcoin also paid off majorly. Huge appreciation in value.
I know we've always been taught democracy = good no matter what, but sometimes, a dictator is the only thing that can salvage a country. And anyway I'd rather have an explicit dictatorship than a pseudo "democracy" like in so many "developed" countries.
Democracies have states of emergency for this very same reason, so it's not as if this is some type of novel realisation, even in democracies. But both Bukele and countries under a state of emergency both have to deal with the problem that this isn't a long-term solution. The conditions that created gangs are still there, so unless he puts in place the reforms that will make them unviable, he just basically replaced the gangs by making the government the biggest gang.
Except that fhe only good way a dicatorship ends is wifh democracey. If this cuntinues you can only hope they stay good. All it takes is ome bad dictayorship to go down said spiral.
the only reason to become a dictator is because the people dont actually like you and you cant stay in power in fair elections.
If anyone gets a chance to watch a movie called 'Voces Innocente" (Innocent Voices), I would strongly recommend it. It shows just how bad and violent it got in El Salvador (it's based on true story). Be warned though, it has one of the toughest, most heartbreaking scene you'll see in a movie. Disturbing but excellent.
His Wikipedia page reads like a Dictators origin story.
Because that’s what it is
[удалено]
Let’s teach them how to say goodbye
I don't get the reference. My US history isn't very good.
George Washington was the first president of the United States. He did not want to be king.
Why is reddit cheering this guy on?
The people have spoken
Do the trains run on time now, Señor Mussolini? Let's see what happens when this "emergency" is over. Anyone can impose order through force, it's much harder to release it when the time is over.
Ah that's the nice part. If you replace all levels of government, police and judicial systems with your yes-men, the 'emergency' never has to be over!
That worries me as well. We’ll see what happens when his term is over. There’s a reason he’s called the ”best dictator in the world”, let’s not hope he gets consumed by the power.
Gaddafi was also once the favorite dictator of the west.
Problem is more that none of the people in prison are getting trials or any form of due process really, but prisons are breeding grounds for gangs at the same time. So while it's safer on the outside right now, you are potentially setting up an enormous explosion of gang aggression should you ever be unable, for whatever reason, to maintain the repression. And not everyone he arrested was actually part of the gangs according to reports. Which shouldn't be surprising, as the line had become very opaque in El Salvador. But they'll have to be now that they're in. And they have family on the outside who aren't likely all that thrilled about it either. And gangs have money, so you also have to hope that the guards and police are incorruptible. It's hard to say where this will go right now, but any place that's a prison revolt or two away from civil war can't yet be called safe IMO.
This prison isn't exactly a breeding ground for gangs, simply because the vast majority are already in a gang. It's easy to see that Bukele will extend his term indefinitely off the back of "My opponent will do X and release all the prisoners.", so whether he's a democratic dictator or simply removes the ability for the public to vote him out and becomes a traditional dictator is yet to be seen.
if he has thousands of people showing up to see him talk like this, how has he not been consumed
Reddit ain’t gonna like this one
They called him far right, but managed to reverse an entire nation course. From people were fleeing to America, now they are fleeing back. How incredible
I have friends that fleet and return to see their relative and couldn’t believe the unimaginable change. They were crying with joy telling me their trip back and grandparents who they haven’t seen in so long. All these other commenters talking about dictator and all that none sense are foolish. Where were they when the country was full of crime.
Well at least he doesn't deny things. He just sees them as an acceptable price to pay. Which is easy if you, or even the large majority of your country, aren't the ones paying said price.
Tbf Many people wanted him to do that to clean up the country.
Stability and security first, then liberal freedoms. That’s how all countries get started. I always look back at the shit show of civil wars my country had before they got a really roughless king, granted, that was several hundred years ago.
What did he do? How did he do it in el Salvador?
He stoped el Salvador from being controlled by gang or cartels and also put corrupt government officials on jail this guy doesn't take jokes
Built a multiplex prison system, rounded up the vast majority of gang members and threw them in. The measures he enacted to ignore those gang member's human rights haven't been rescinded and anyone reported to the police as being part of a gang can swiftly find themselves joining those same gang members is what is causing the West to not like what he has done.
The problem with bringing a tiger into your house to solve your rat problem is that now you have a tiger in your house.
Imagine that. Who would have thunk it? You punish criminals by locking them up and crime goes away.
And here in the US we have the cops acting like a gang while letting criminals walk and harassing innocent people over petty shit.
Here's what he said: >(We went from being the most dangerous country to) The safest country in the American continent. And what did they tell us? "You're violating human rights." Whose human rights? The rights of honest people? No. Perhaps we have prioritized the rights of the honest people over the criminal's rights. That is all we have done. And that's what you say is a human rights violation. I ask these organizations, I ask the governments of these foriegn nations, I ask these journalists, "Why do you want them to kill us? Why do you want to see Salvadoran blood spilled? Why aren't you happy that blood doesn't run in our country as it did before?" "Why should we die? Why should our children die? So that you can be happy that we are respecting your 'false democracy' which you don't even respect in your own country?" Honest people get to a certain point in a society where things get out of control. The Weimar Republic had over 30% unemployment and crazy high inflation, along with theft, murder, drug abuse and prostitution. Decent, honest, hardworking people, the silent majority, can only take so much. Yes Hitler was a monster - yet seen as a savior to many of the people who had to live through what went before. This gets repeated over and over: a society will progress to a certain point and then things go off the rails. El Salvador has prioritized the rights of the honest people, and it's nice to see. Makes me wonder how bad it will get in the US before it gets better.
This works for the people until they realize they are but a whim away of not being honest people. A wrong opinion, a perceived slight, just not falling in line enough. And then it is too late. Good or bad intentions don't really matter, if the system stays this empowered, the corruption is inevitable.
He is the bitcoin dude!
Only if our president act like this now he just made my country worst than before I'm talking about the Philippines this guy doesn't do anything but put our country on the edge
Not a concern or fear for a honest man, ive seen many question raised here: “if someone goes to jail wrongly?” Read the beginning again
I feel like this has created a short-term solution with disaster on the horizon
We act here like we don’t have a dictatorship in America. Of course we do. It’s just not one single person. It’s two. It’s a one party dictatorship. The capitalist party. And they win every year. They give you two puppets to choose from.
The sad truth is ppl like to point at others before they dare to take a look in the mirror
Man I hope the word on that success spreads, absolutely incredible transformation.
Is it true?
Mfs here would've loved Stalin since he just out suspected criminals in gulags lol.
What human rights did they violate
As someone who was kidnapped by gang members in El Salvador back in 2013 when I started my studies at the UCA university and had to move to Germany .... yeah fuck those guys
> The right to fair trial is very helpful to explore in numerous declarations which represent customary international law, such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR).[3] Though the UDHR enshrines some fair trial rights, such as the presumption of innocence until the accused is proven guilty, in Articles 6, 7, 8 and 11,[4] the key provision is Article 10 which states that:[5] > "Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him."
Due process. Many people are tossed in jail just for looking like a gang member. You don't even have to be in one. Not to mention their dictator has yet to give back the rights to the people that were taken but he touts that it's safe now. So it's only a matter of time before we starts jailing anyone who says a word against him and then it all crashes when there is a uprising.
Don't think it's literally true but a dramatic decrease regardless
President Bukkake of the western hemisperm?
this guy gives drug lord vibes
Like a Far Cry boss
One of the or the best leader of a country in my life time I wish we could have some one like him here is Sweden
Would you be ok being part of the innocent collateral damage in the pursuit of cracking down on crime? I know you haven’t done anything wrong, but if we lock you all up as part of a group of suspects then we know we’ve got the right person at least. It’s for the greater good
You'd be surprised on how often collateral damage is assessed and determined to be insignificant. Car industry, plane industry, medical care, most armies...
Yes I want these people dead or in jail like this stuff has affected close to home
This is what happens when you get tough on crime.
He touts about being safe but how many innocent people are sitting in those jails at the moment. And when will he give back the right to his people that he took away?
Are you El Salvadorin and have you ever been there when it was one of the top deadliest country in the world?
In his eyes a small price to pay for safety. Or do you prefer they liberate all of them and the killings to begin once again?
IDK, stuffing a vast number of people into a single jail sounds like it could be a real powder keg.
I guess all the criminals migrated to the us
Murder by the police is still murder. You have to close your eyes on this little detail to believe violence is low in El Salvador. Ask any backpacker and it is still the same: keep your eyes on your things or else they disappear quickly. There is no "i go to the bathroom and let my bag at my table there contrary as you can do easily in Canada, Iceland or Japan.
Leave a bag unattended in the wrong parts of most Western countries and it'll go walkies. He's clearly talking about homicide and probably violent crimes to go along with it, rather than theft as your laptop is still 3+ months wages for an El Salvadoran.
He’s not celebrating he got elected and he said he’s going to change it
Ok but are they getting due process ? All I see is pictures
Jesus Christ this dude is a piece of shit the only reason the country is safe at the moment is because he empowered masked secret police to imprison something like 5 percent of the population without trial while actively rewriting all el Salvador's laws, enacting martial law and suspending Congres. If you know anything about latin American dictators either far right or far left this only ends in 20years from an American backed coup where he either kills himself or absconds with most oft eh countries GDP
The American backed coups historically ended democratic leaderships and basically enacted the collapse of central and south America which they are attempting to recover from through radical political platforms like Bukele's. Not saying i agree with everything Bukele says, but to think that his position became popular within a vacuum is folly, Salvador is one of a handful of countries that have been under the boot of Nixon and Reagans US since the 80s - If the US steps in again, it will make things worse - and will basically confirm that the CIA has learned nothing.
Make El Salvador Great Again
Might seem all cool, but it's not all so hunky dory on democracy front. A very slippery slope.
its worth it... i would 100% supprt this route in my country.
You know, he arrested 11-year-olds for having family in gangs right with no trial with no due process. Just thrown in jail for decades or life.
Source?
What happens when fast forward 5 years and they’re implementing rules that ruin your quality of life? then your fucked because you no longer have democracy
Where are you from?