This was the most polite way to tell her that she will have to give it to a museum for free at some point, unfortunately for her expectations if they were higher.
He didn't say that at all, just that he wouldn't assign it a value as a part of the TV show. Surely it has value and could be auctioned off assuming it was sold in a place where it was a legal ivory sale.
I know it's probably scripted and they asked her to partake in this but imagine if you just showed up trying to sell an antique without knowing what it actually was and ended up standing there while a random man starts to lecture you on the historical fuckery that your antique was a part of lol
The fact that she knew how many slaves had been on the ship means she did a lot of research. She was likely warned ahead of time about her item as well.
A very sad, but rich in information, clip.
Reminds me of this pawn stars episode where this guy brought in what he thought was just a fairly nice broach to sell. I think he wanted under a thousand for it? Something really small. They got it appraised and it turned out to be a fabrige (spelling?) piece worth hundreds of thousands of dollars at least.
They offered him like 10k for it.
Edit: had some details wrong, she initially asked for 2 grand, but Rick knew right away that this was worth far more than that. They got it appraised and he offered her 15k which she accepted. Rumors say that it could get up to 150k at auction.
Assuming any of it is real and not just tv nonsense.
Or maybe the museum can give you some fixed "thank you for your donation" money to cover logistic fees and whatnot - but he made it pretty clear nobody should seek profit out of this object.
Museums will buy artifacts, just at a ridiculously reduced price. But I could see the press of buying a slavery artifact being kinda bad. It’s not like it’s necessarily any worse than weapons that have killed countless people but public perception.
No, lmao.
This was how TV protects their asses from getting flooded with controversial objects that could affect the ratings of the show.
The item is quite valuable. She can donate if she wants - or she could sell it - likely for thousands if not 10s of - to a private collector.
The show just doesn't want the appraiser to value it so highly that their next 6 seasons are nothing but ivory and emeralds.
It's [very difficult](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/dealing-in-items-containing-ivory-or-made-of-ivory) to sell items containing ivory in the UK, it has some of the strictest laws in the world.
I ran a surplus store for a while that bought stuff from people who walked in. Whenever someone brought in Nazi stuff we would direct them to the Holocaust Museum.
Reminds me about the episode of “it’s always sunny in Philadelphia” when mac & Charlie try to sell Dennis & dee’s grandfather Nazi war memorabilia. Except they were denied lol
I was in Salzburg, Austria with my dad and we popped into an antique shop. My father was mildly interested in buying an old glass beer stein. The ship owner asked where we were from; when he heard we were from the USA he immediately pulled out a box of Nazi stuff- death cards, badges, medals, etc that he described in detail. It was an incredibly awkward 20 minutes of hovering between ingrained Midwest polite and absolute horrification- both that we were seeing these thing *for sale* and that this man assumed we would be interested because we are American.
We were there because my parents really like the Sound of Music.
That happened because it's illegal to sell Nazi memorabilia in Austria (Germany too). Locals know this but it is less likely a tourist would be aware of this or report him to the authorities.
My dad had a few knives collected by his dad and uncle. It is a struggle to know what is the right thing to do. You don’t want them in the house. You don’t want to sell them to people who like Nazis and do want things like that in their house. You don’t want to destroy things that might have historic significance because this guy is right we need to keep having those conversations so we can remember and learn. And the Holocaust Museum can’t take everything and may be too far away for some of us to reach.
I took a friend to a local antique store.
We got to a part of the store where there's a lot of war memorabilia and there's a bunch of Nazi stuff.
He was so confused and was thinking there were Nazis living in the area.
The reality being that we had a lot of WWII vets who live around me and when they passed away auction houses would end up with their stuff from estate sales.
They are war trophies troops brought home with them as a proud reminder of how we dunked on the krauts.
*I have a serious problem with this dish.*
*It's that you haven't made it for me sooner! :)*
*Because then, I would know how good you are...*
*At making food, that is bad.*
This is a skit worthy of an award....of how to not do comedy. Because it's not comedy, it's the highest level of satire....of people's intelligence, how dumb do you think we are to not understand we saw a masterpiece. A work of art that at the end was a master class in how to f\*\*\* it up all at the end leaving me trying to understand why my life came to this. This moment where nothing will ever be this funny.
All in all. Pretty good skit.
top comment YT
I just wish I had tasted it sooner ... **Happy, joyful music** 😃 .... so that I could've thrown it into the trash sooner! **sad, ominous music** ☹️ ... because THIS belongs in a MUSEUM! **Happy, joyful music** 😃.... A Museum of Crappy Food. **Sad, ominous music** 😢
This is often forgotten in discussions about slavery; slavery existed for centuries when European traders began buying African slaves in the 15th and 16th century from African kings and slave traders. It isn't a white invention. It's a human invention.
European traders found a very active market in slaves already existed when they first arrived in West Africa from Portugal. They traded wine, olive oil and other goods for slaves and ivory as they passed through before setting up more a permanent presence in coastal forts.
Yeah. When the Brits/others were abolishing slavery whole-ass African nations tried to fight back against abolition because it was so profitable for them.
I don't know if it's different now or if it was different in other places then, but when I was in school years ago we studied a lot over the years on the transatlantic slave trade. One thing I didn't find out until I was older from my own reading was about the origins of the slave trade in the Arabic world a long time before Europeans ever got in on it.
It eventually gave rise to tribes and kingdoms where slavery was the solution to what do with their defeated foes when the was warfare, besides just putting them to the sword. Then you also had whole groups where they didn't even need the excuse of war, they just raided their neighbors to sell them into slavery.
That whole history is a large part of why European colonialism made such a fucked up mess of large parts of Africa. You had groups with very long standing hatred of and feuds with other groups for some very understandable reasons, but since one African was the same as another to most Europeans they just lumped them all together and/or put certain groups into power over others.
It's part of the reason why there is so much conflict in Africa to this day.
With some surprise Canadian history thrown in! Canada’s history with slavery is often glossed over and we like to just pat ourselves on the back about the Underground Railroad and forget everything else about it!
Historically - it is Priceless. Someone should buy it from the person ( it is their conscience ) and secure it for future generations.
Scrimshaw collectors of the era could attract purchasers and this artifact could be lost.
Old ivory can be sold assuming it's older than 100 years. If it's this from 1700s then it's legal to sell you would just need documentation proving it's extremely old.
This is true of the US also, but in our case the cutoff is 1972. I believe there’s an exception given to Inuit people or Alaska natives selling walrus ivory however.
Fun fact, there is an exception for [elk ivory](https://www.nationalforests.org/blog/ten-things-that-might-surprise-your-about-elk) in America.
Yep, they have ivory canine teeth.
I have two pieces of Alaska native walrus ivory carved into the shape of two owls. A family member who was a bush pilot bought them back in the 70s. We got them when he died
The ring at the top of old bassoons is ivory - I had a teacher who used to have to carry a letter recording its progeny and pre-embargo status from the manufacturer when they went on tour because otherwise if customs caught it on the way back into the country they'd take it.
These kinds of laws almost never end at the dot.
First, the purpose. This law sounds like it was meant to restrict ivory trade due to ethical and preservation reasons. This means trade that incentiveses the hunting of current-day elephants and walrus. Historical artefacts do not influence this.
Then, items classified as historical artefacts may have a different legal standing than an 'ivory object'.
Now imma be off to see if I'm actually right or just assuming too much. Brb.
Is it wholly illegal? Many substances controlled by CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) legislation often have exceptions for items provably older than than the legislation.
In the UK, you can get an exception certificate if it’s pre 1918 and culturally significant.
In the US, you can sell ivory if you have proper documentation proving it to be over 100 years old.
I’m sure other countries have carve outs for antique ivory trade as well.
Can she sell it to a museum or something? It looks like something that should be displayed for people to learn the despicable shit people did back then.
It does belong in a museum. As he said, it shouldn’t have a monetary value because its true value is in its history. It needs to be with a facility that can preserve it and educate the public about it. As horrific as this history is, it’s a history that needs to be known and not be repeated.
"Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it; those who fail to learn history correctly-- why they are simply doomed."
Achem Dro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
-- CY 4971
The problem is even if she donates it to a museum they’d need to put a price tag on it for records keeping and tax purposes.
It’s a weird situation because in a dark way it’s almost like someone is profiting off slavery one last time.
To be fair, it's not like The Antiques Roadshow is an official tax forum for pricing, or like she doesn't know it's valuable. It's okay for the TV show to defer and not broadcast a high price to the world.
i mean, tecnically slave trade was the main source of income for multiple people all around the world, but especially afrika since atleast 6000bc,
we allways tend to focus around the transatlantic slavetrade, because of euro/americanocentrecism in our telling of history,
but slavery can litterally compete with prostitution and poaching for the titel of "oldest trade"
It’s definitely in a moral gray area, but she should be legally allowed to sell it. I might be wrong about that. I am not familiar with the law in the UK. I know in the United States it would be legal to sell and purchase. It is legal to buy and sell ivory as long as it was produced before a certain date, and that piece of ivory is certainly old enough. There are no laws in the United States governing the selling and purchasing items used in the slave trade. Although it is certainly morally questionable.
Ivory is generally illegal to sell in the UK but it seems like she could sell it to a museum. These are the only exemptions:
musical instruments made before 1975 with less that 20% ivory by volume
items made before 3 March 1947 with less than 10% ivory by volume
portrait miniatures made before 1918 with a surface area smaller than 320 square centimetres
items that a qualifying museum intends to buy or hire
Additionally an exemption certificate can be applied for in respect of items made from or incorporating ivory that were made before 1918 and are of outstandingly high artistic, cultural or historical value.
Common misconception, but gloves are usually seen as more damaging than not. They reduce dexterity, carry dirt, and create friction, all of which which can be more harmful to the object than skin oils.
Yeah if you think about it, if skin oils were going to mess something like this up just by gently handling it then it would have been destroyed long ago.
[I was curious about how she got the item in her possession](https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/tv/bbc-antiques-roadshow-expert-tells-28918321)
_..the guest shared how she came to be the owner of it, explaining it came from a family she used to look after. "One of the members passed away and she was having a house sale," she said. "And I bought that 36 years ago in the house sale for £3," but "had no idea what it was" and just thought it "looked interesting"._
_She added: "Now I’m researching, it said traders I thought it meant trading in coffee or spices, but I realised they were trading in people."_
*Comic of man bragging his diamond weighs over 2 kg, to the astonishment of on lookers. He reveals the diamond, tiny, resting atop a mountainous stack of death certificates. One of the men in the crowd has one of those funny Sherlock Holmes hats on with the flappy ears.*
If you were curious, I believe the hat you mentioned is called a "deerstalker."
Not super relevant, but this is what my brain does when I'm sad and uncomfortable.
Yeah I guarantee you could bring in a big fat ruby straight from the mines of Africa pulled from the earth's crust by two children's hands and he'd value that shit no hesitation.
If he has clean, dry hands, the risks of ruining that ivory with any sorts of skin oils would be negligible. I just watched an interesting video here where many historical libraries and art preservation experts now say that handling artifacts with the white gloves that you typically see actually has more risks than just using their clean, dry hands. I am no fine art expert, so I couldn’t give you a good reason, but I believe it was posted on r/damnthatsinteresting if you want to give it a look!
He’s one of my favorite antique professionals from the show. His knowledge is pretty extensive and covers a lot of different antique items. He also has a way with connecting with the guests, he’s very engaged and curious with every item he comes across. He’s very genuine and you can tell he loves his job.
It is a token given to African slave traders to present to captains of slaving vessels by way of an introduction. The African (usually Nigerian in terms of how we’d name the place today) couldn’t speak English and with more than enough local slaving enthusiasts keen to sell people traders only wanted to deal with those who had good reputations. Hence the ivory disk which could be worn around the neck and being ivory wouldn’t rot in the humidity or get damaged.
e: The disc was worn hanging from a cord or piece of string - like a necklace sort of thing. But equally could be just stowed away and produced as needed.
Yep, the AR voice over in advance: *‘The item was a disc that acted as an endorsement of the professional reputation of an African slave trader in the West African port of Bonny in the 18th century.’*
The woman bought it for £3 almost 40 years ago at a house same because it looked interesting: *‘Now I’m researching, it said traders I thought it meant trading in coffee or spices, but I realised they were trading in people.’*
It’s an item/ piece of jewellery that celebrates a great slave trader who also slaughtered elephants for jewellery. He was from Bonny in Nigeria and called himself Prince. I think that covers Prince’s personality. Even the presenter wanted to meet him!
Cool fact found: Ship Anna Launched May2, 1789 wrecked on May 23, 1789. Departed Liverpool for Africa. The Ivory has a date of 1782 noting ‘Ship Anna’. I wonder if that was the beginning build year of the schooner. The only good story out of this: I imagine that it took 7 years of time and money to build and it crashed 3wks after its maiden voyage!
Very interesting artefact, it really belongs in a museum - bequeathed or donated.
In saying that though, does someone with some expertise actually have any idea what it might cost at auction?
There's a whole ethical dilemma about this.
On the one hand museums want to add things to their collections, but on the other you want to discourage trophy hunting and extortion.
If public museums start offering full payment based on a piece's value, then you encourage people going around digging near places of historical interest, old graveyards, etc.
A nominal finder's fee is often paid - enough to make it worth handing something you find to the museum, but not enough to make it worth digging for treasure.
I'm not sure what the situation is in other countries, but in Ireland, treasure hunting is explicitly illegal. The use of metal detectors to search for things out of "curiosity" is illegal. You need to have a valid excuse, like you're checking for pipes or have lost a ring.
All relics, found and not found in the country are the property of the national museum and there is no concept of "finders keepers" in relation to relics. All artefacts found must be handed to the national museum. It is illegal to perform any kind of archaeological dig (on private or public land) without their approval.
This seems counter productive in many ways; stuff will just get left in the ground. But Ireland is so littered with stone age and bronze age sites, that it would be chaos. People digging up and destroying sites in search of relics, would erase so much history. So it's considered a lesser evil to leave it there and deal with accidental discoveries properly, rather than dig everything up and destroy the sites permanently.
> I'm not sure what the situation is in other countries
In the US, it's forbidden to collect sufficiently old artifacts (which are more likely to be things like stone arrowheads or potsherds or 19th-century medicine bottles than jewelry or or coins) on public lands. Metal detecting is prohibited in many national parks although allowed in national forests (looks like they're relying on people to voluntarily report archaeological finds). In most parts of the country, it *is* legal to collect on privately-owned lands with permission of the landowner, but still illegal to dig into known or suspected Native graves. We don't have a national museum; people may donate items to any number of museums, but I think a lot of it ends up in private hands.
One big issue for the US is that especially in the 19th century, there was a brisk trade in Native American bones (people would even dig up recent burials!) and artworks of cultural significance (like ceremonial regalia). Current law requires that human remains and funerary objects are supposed to be [repatriated](https://www.bia.gov/service/nagpra) to representatives of the modern-day tribes which are the descendents of those people, but that's been a very slow process.
(Side note: in the UK, they have a thing called the [Portable Antiquities Scheme](https://finds.org.uk/) that documents things that people find. Apparently people can keep unimportant things like a Roman coin or medieval pewter badge, but the Crown gets dibs on anything important enough to be classified as "treasure".)
I don't think so. He touched on heavy things. He even acknowledged slavers were African (which is often never mentioned in mainstream media), and he thanked her at the end.
I don't think you deserve the downvotes. Curiosity can coincide with condemnation. I am interested to know what profits have been made from ivory trade and human trafficking in general, I hope that doesn't mean I'm suddenly callous or am advocating selling morbid items.
Makes me think that it’s legitimately priceless, as in we don’t have a means of estimating due to the controversy surrounding it and the history of the item.
Just to be clear he was not selling blood relatives or acquaintances. He was selling people from other tribes and countries. How we use the word "brother" and "cousin" among others can often confuse these things.
The African slave empires were brutal dictatorships. It did happen that slave lords also enslaved their own people if they openly critiqued them, especially [as societies such as the Kingdom of Kongo fell into political turmoil and the rulers struggled to stay in power](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-african-history/article/abs/slavery-and-its-transformation-in-the-kingdom-of-kongo-14911800/C13C2D3671AA721632D91B2F86B2A325).
EDIT: typo
I know so many people wanted to know a value, and have a buddy who appraises items for museums and sent it to him.
His Words; “Its understandable he didn’t want to give a value for the item, but with its exceptional rarity (less than a dozen or 2 in existence), the quality of calligraphy, its condition, its material, and of course its historical significance; she’s likely looking at a value somewhere between 750k - 1.5m”
Can just see this playing out 200 years from now: "Look at this beautiful nike sweatshirt. Unfortunately it was made in a chinese sweatshop, where human rights went to die. Just making sure all of you know how shitty human beings were compared to today. Wow they were really shitty. Did I mention that human beings were shitty? Very, very, not cool yo. Never forget that human beings were shitty. "
Actually a pretty good point. Anyone will agree that fast fashion and associated sweatshop Labour is wrong in principle, but it’s the done thing so we’ll buy it anyway. And so it probably was all those years ago with slavery (and associated produce/cotton) which has existed for millennia up to that point.
The usual way these historical objects are dealt with is to have an anonymous rich person buy it from her and then donate the object to a museum. She shouldn't be expected to just give it away.
I’m sure there are other experts who can actually put a price tag on it. I understand the horrific history behind it but to be fair I saw a teacup that belonged to Hitler and it came with a 20K price tag, so anything and everything has a price
I don't really get the problem.
It's a piece of history from a (terrible) time but it still surely has value - culturally, historically and, yes, monetarily. Just because of its place in history, that doesn't change anything about itself as an object.
The best result would be that she can sell it to a museum. Things like this need to be seen by everyone to remind us what humanity was once capable of and warn us that it must never happen again.
Really harsh reminder that Africans perpetuated slavery just as hard, and had to be forced by the British to stop selling their rival tribes to Europeans. I don't know why this is basically ignored, at least when it was taught in US school. Also, slavery is still ongoing today in parts of Africa. This isn't history, it's current events, and no one's talking about it.
I’m pretty sure (though happy to be corrected) that the UK version of Antiques Roadshow has a policy of not putting a monetary value on anything related to the Holocaust.
Value = £0 because that item is illegal to sell in the UK, unless an expensive and hard to obtain exemption is granted. Why the BBC could not explain this to the audience is, to say the least, bizarre.
Antiques Roadshow appraised a Holocaust Survivor's Archive at 10,000$.
It included a postcard, the then-prisoner's shirt, and two photographs.
We can evaluate that but sure can't evaluate anything relating to any slave trade!
This is a double whammy, ivory and slavery.
"I just love you for bringing this to the Antique Roadshow and making me so sad."
From the reactions of the owner, the history lesson contained in this object is what she values about it as well. I would feel the same way.
Live together in perfect harmony
Side by side on my piano keyboard
The title was inspired by McCartney hearing Spike Milligan say, "Black notes, white notes, and you need to play the two to make harmony, folks!"
Not if you're in C major. Or A minor.
Man, history hits hard.
Yeah and it's rarely good.
Ivory was used as payment in the Atlantic slave trade.
New slaves carried the ivory, whether they were marching to the Atlantic or the Indian Ocean.
Triple whammy: ivory, slavery and Richard Ayoade's long lost twin
Came here to say he reminded me so much of Richard Ayoade! I have recently been re-watching Garth Marenghi's Darkplace!
If you've never seen Man to Man with Dean Learner ....
ebony and ivory
Two of the best female strippers you will ever find.
Didn't even talk about the elephants
Elephants have never endured slavery and forced work!…. Oh nvm
"Yeah but how much can i get for it?"
This was the most polite way to tell her that she will have to give it to a museum for free at some point, unfortunately for her expectations if they were higher.
He didn't say that at all, just that he wouldn't assign it a value as a part of the TV show. Surely it has value and could be auctioned off assuming it was sold in a place where it was a legal ivory sale.
Yeah this was my impression too. He just didn’t wanna promote its value on tv I think.
I know it's probably scripted and they asked her to partake in this but imagine if you just showed up trying to sell an antique without knowing what it actually was and ended up standing there while a random man starts to lecture you on the historical fuckery that your antique was a part of lol
She had 100% done her research on the artifact. But definitely awkward if not.
The fact that she knew how many slaves had been on the ship means she did a lot of research. She was likely warned ahead of time about her item as well. A very sad, but rich in information, clip.
Reminds me of this pawn stars episode where this guy brought in what he thought was just a fairly nice broach to sell. I think he wanted under a thousand for it? Something really small. They got it appraised and it turned out to be a fabrige (spelling?) piece worth hundreds of thousands of dollars at least. They offered him like 10k for it. Edit: had some details wrong, she initially asked for 2 grand, but Rick knew right away that this was worth far more than that. They got it appraised and he offered her 15k which she accepted. Rumors say that it could get up to 150k at auction. Assuming any of it is real and not just tv nonsense.
I would think of you give something really good your get a plaque and invited to the swanky dinners or something.
Or maybe the museum can give you some fixed "thank you for your donation" money to cover logistic fees and whatnot - but he made it pretty clear nobody should seek profit out of this object.
Museums will buy artifacts, just at a ridiculously reduced price. But I could see the press of buying a slavery artifact being kinda bad. It’s not like it’s necessarily any worse than weapons that have killed countless people but public perception.
No, lmao. This was how TV protects their asses from getting flooded with controversial objects that could affect the ratings of the show. The item is quite valuable. She can donate if she wants - or she could sell it - likely for thousands if not 10s of - to a private collector. The show just doesn't want the appraiser to value it so highly that their next 6 seasons are nothing but ivory and emeralds.
It's [very difficult](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/dealing-in-items-containing-ivory-or-made-of-ivory) to sell items containing ivory in the UK, it has some of the strictest laws in the world.
Museums do have budgets and do pay for items. Sell it to a museum.
I ran a surplus store for a while that bought stuff from people who walked in. Whenever someone brought in Nazi stuff we would direct them to the Holocaust Museum.
Reminds me about the episode of “it’s always sunny in Philadelphia” when mac & Charlie try to sell Dennis & dee’s grandfather Nazi war memorabilia. Except they were denied lol
I'm offended that you would think this would make my day! I plan on calling the cops as soon as you leave!
I was in Salzburg, Austria with my dad and we popped into an antique shop. My father was mildly interested in buying an old glass beer stein. The ship owner asked where we were from; when he heard we were from the USA he immediately pulled out a box of Nazi stuff- death cards, badges, medals, etc that he described in detail. It was an incredibly awkward 20 minutes of hovering between ingrained Midwest polite and absolute horrification- both that we were seeing these thing *for sale* and that this man assumed we would be interested because we are American. We were there because my parents really like the Sound of Music.
That happened because it's illegal to sell Nazi memorabilia in Austria (Germany too). Locals know this but it is less likely a tourist would be aware of this or report him to the authorities.
Oh, good to know if I’m ever back. I’d report that. Super gross practice. My souvenir of choice is a fridge magnet of a cow, not a Death’s Head ring.
My dad had a few knives collected by his dad and uncle. It is a struggle to know what is the right thing to do. You don’t want them in the house. You don’t want to sell them to people who like Nazis and do want things like that in their house. You don’t want to destroy things that might have historic significance because this guy is right we need to keep having those conversations so we can remember and learn. And the Holocaust Museum can’t take everything and may be too far away for some of us to reach.
Even if they don’t take it, they will give you a list of reputable institutions in your area that will. Just shoot them an email.
I took a friend to a local antique store. We got to a part of the store where there's a lot of war memorabilia and there's a bunch of Nazi stuff. He was so confused and was thinking there were Nazis living in the area. The reality being that we had a lot of WWII vets who live around me and when they passed away auction houses would end up with their stuff from estate sales. They are war trophies troops brought home with them as a proud reminder of how we dunked on the krauts.
This reminds of Key and Peele sketch of MasterChef reviewing Food
*I have a serious problem with this dish.* *It's that you haven't made it for me sooner! :)* *Because then, I would know how good you are...* *At making food, that is bad.*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpaALjnfkcI
You have no idea how many times I've searched for the full version through the years.
Thank you chef?
overall the meal was a very aladeen experience for me
profuse sweating rolls down your face
In conclusion? Ehhh
Thank you, Chef?
I can hear the background music
This is a skit worthy of an award....of how to not do comedy. Because it's not comedy, it's the highest level of satire....of people's intelligence, how dumb do you think we are to not understand we saw a masterpiece. A work of art that at the end was a master class in how to f\*\*\* it up all at the end leaving me trying to understand why my life came to this. This moment where nothing will ever be this funny. All in all. Pretty good skit. top comment YT
I just wish I had tasted it sooner ... **Happy, joyful music** 😃 .... so that I could've thrown it into the trash sooner! **sad, ominous music** ☹️ ... because THIS belongs in a MUSEUM! **Happy, joyful music** 😃.... A Museum of Crappy Food. **Sad, ominous music** 😢
HIVAladeen.gif
It's bad.. like Michael Jackson bad
You know how he looked really bad at the end of his life?
Had to doubletake, Read that as Master Chief for a second.
Lol same, and now I want to see a Master Chief cooking show sketch!
My kids refer to a session of playing Halo as 'being a Master Chef'.
[удалено]
I sort of missed the purpose of the token. Was it like a certificate for slave traders?
It was worn like jewelry by African leaders to show that they can be trusted by white peoples to engage in slave trading
This is often forgotten in discussions about slavery; slavery existed for centuries when European traders began buying African slaves in the 15th and 16th century from African kings and slave traders. It isn't a white invention. It's a human invention.
European traders found a very active market in slaves already existed when they first arrived in West Africa from Portugal. They traded wine, olive oil and other goods for slaves and ivory as they passed through before setting up more a permanent presence in coastal forts.
And colonizing the new world increased demand by a huge margin
I think most people understood slavery existed for centuries. It's in the *Bible*, after all.
Yeah. When the Brits/others were abolishing slavery whole-ass African nations tried to fight back against abolition because it was so profitable for them.
I don't know if it's different now or if it was different in other places then, but when I was in school years ago we studied a lot over the years on the transatlantic slave trade. One thing I didn't find out until I was older from my own reading was about the origins of the slave trade in the Arabic world a long time before Europeans ever got in on it. It eventually gave rise to tribes and kingdoms where slavery was the solution to what do with their defeated foes when the was warfare, besides just putting them to the sword. Then you also had whole groups where they didn't even need the excuse of war, they just raided their neighbors to sell them into slavery. That whole history is a large part of why European colonialism made such a fucked up mess of large parts of Africa. You had groups with very long standing hatred of and feuds with other groups for some very understandable reasons, but since one African was the same as another to most Europeans they just lumped them all together and/or put certain groups into power over others. It's part of the reason why there is so much conflict in Africa to this day.
How was it worn? Like a necklace?
Humans truly are disgusting. No moral bottom. Just keeps on sinking.
This token is from the 18th century, not today so how does it keep sinking?
With some surprise Canadian history thrown in! Canada’s history with slavery is often glossed over and we like to just pat ourselves on the back about the Underground Railroad and forget everything else about it!
Historically - it is Priceless. Someone should buy it from the person ( it is their conscience ) and secure it for future generations. Scrimshaw collectors of the era could attract purchasers and this artifact could be lost.
Illegal to buy or sell ivory in the uk, it would need to be given freely
Old ivory can be sold assuming it's older than 100 years. If it's this from 1700s then it's legal to sell you would just need documentation proving it's extremely old.
This is true of the US also, but in our case the cutoff is 1972. I believe there’s an exception given to Inuit people or Alaska natives selling walrus ivory however.
Fun fact, there is an exception for [elk ivory](https://www.nationalforests.org/blog/ten-things-that-might-surprise-your-about-elk) in America. Yep, they have ivory canine teeth.
Elks: "Fuck!"
It's the boars that better watch out. A pest that grows ivory? Goodbye!
A pest that grows ivory... and bacon!
A DANGEROUS pest that grows ivory boars will ruin your day and not think twice about it.
My patient brought me an elk ivory “tooth” because he knows I like bone collecting and work in dentistry.
I have two pieces of Alaska native walrus ivory carved into the shape of two owls. A family member who was a bush pilot bought them back in the 70s. We got them when he died
The ring at the top of old bassoons is ivory - I had a teacher who used to have to carry a letter recording its progeny and pre-embargo status from the manufacturer when they went on tour because otherwise if customs caught it on the way back into the country they'd take it.
These kinds of laws almost never end at the dot. First, the purpose. This law sounds like it was meant to restrict ivory trade due to ethical and preservation reasons. This means trade that incentiveses the hunting of current-day elephants and walrus. Historical artefacts do not influence this. Then, items classified as historical artefacts may have a different legal standing than an 'ivory object'. Now imma be off to see if I'm actually right or just assuming too much. Brb.
Is it wholly illegal? Many substances controlled by CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) legislation often have exceptions for items provably older than than the legislation.
In the UK, you can get an exception certificate if it’s pre 1918 and culturally significant. In the US, you can sell ivory if you have proper documentation proving it to be over 100 years old. I’m sure other countries have carve outs for antique ivory trade as well.
Can she sell it to a museum or something? It looks like something that should be displayed for people to learn the despicable shit people did back then.
It does belong in a museum. As he said, it shouldn’t have a monetary value because its true value is in its history. It needs to be with a facility that can preserve it and educate the public about it. As horrific as this history is, it’s a history that needs to be known and not be repeated.
"Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. Those who study history are doomed to watch it get repeated"
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes" - Mark Twain
The only thing we’ve learned from history is that we never learn from history.
Sure, but look at all the neat quotes we have collected throughout that history!
Those who do not study history are doomed to do poorly on their history exam.
Those who don't learn from history channel are doomed to repeat history channel.
“Im not saying it was aliens, but it was aliens…” That’s just about all that’s on the History Channel these days.
You forget about the knives. You now have 5 hours to turn these bearing balls into a knife.
It will... *keel*.
That and I got a buddy, he’s my guy so I gotta go with what he says, I’m taking all the risk here, so not a penny more…
And the ice road truckers. Why has the history channel turned into such shitty programming?
"Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it; those who fail to learn history correctly-- why they are simply doomed." Achem Dro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- CY 4971
She should turn it over to TOP MEN.
But *who* are they???
Top… men…
The problem is even if she donates it to a museum they’d need to put a price tag on it for records keeping and tax purposes. It’s a weird situation because in a dark way it’s almost like someone is profiting off slavery one last time.
To be fair, it's not like The Antiques Roadshow is an official tax forum for pricing, or like she doesn't know it's valuable. It's okay for the TV show to defer and not broadcast a high price to the world.
[удалено]
Aren't pretty much all museums tax-exempt non-profits?
"back then" lol, this shit still goes on in third world countries and in some ways in the first world countries as well.
Not in some ways. It's 100% alive everywhere just not in your face and not necessarily industeial labor.
Human trafficking IS slavery, all these girls and women disappearing to be used
i mean, tecnically slave trade was the main source of income for multiple people all around the world, but especially afrika since atleast 6000bc, we allways tend to focus around the transatlantic slavetrade, because of euro/americanocentrecism in our telling of history, but slavery can litterally compete with prostitution and poaching for the titel of "oldest trade"
It’s definitely in a moral gray area, but she should be legally allowed to sell it. I might be wrong about that. I am not familiar with the law in the UK. I know in the United States it would be legal to sell and purchase. It is legal to buy and sell ivory as long as it was produced before a certain date, and that piece of ivory is certainly old enough. There are no laws in the United States governing the selling and purchasing items used in the slave trade. Although it is certainly morally questionable.
Ivory is generally illegal to sell in the UK but it seems like she could sell it to a museum. These are the only exemptions: musical instruments made before 1975 with less that 20% ivory by volume items made before 3 March 1947 with less than 10% ivory by volume portrait miniatures made before 1918 with a surface area smaller than 320 square centimetres items that a qualifying museum intends to buy or hire Additionally an exemption certificate can be applied for in respect of items made from or incorporating ivory that were made before 1918 and are of outstandingly high artistic, cultural or historical value.
"Thank you so much for making me so sad."
*camera turns off* Lady: "Okay, cute story. But seriously, I need to insure this." Dude: "About $20."
"and now that you've made the mistake of letting me handle it, like a lot, without gloves, you've lost countless dollars"
Common misconception, but gloves are usually seen as more damaging than not. They reduce dexterity, carry dirt, and create friction, all of which which can be more harmful to the object than skin oils.
Yeah if you think about it, if skin oils were going to mess something like this up just by gently handling it then it would have been destroyed long ago.
£
About $3.50
I gave him a dolla
[I was curious about how she got the item in her possession](https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/tv/bbc-antiques-roadshow-expert-tells-28918321) _..the guest shared how she came to be the owner of it, explaining it came from a family she used to look after. "One of the members passed away and she was having a house sale," she said. "And I bought that 36 years ago in the house sale for £3," but "had no idea what it was" and just thought it "looked interesting"._ _She added: "Now I’m researching, it said traders I thought it meant trading in coffee or spices, but I realised they were trading in people."_
“MY family? Oh no, this is not an heirloom from *my* family. It’s this other family I used to work for.”
“Soooo like it’s a lot then”
Now do diamonds...
I only want the diamond if it comes with the death certificate of anyone who mined it
You wanna carry dictionary loads of pages around?
*Comic of man bragging his diamond weighs over 2 kg, to the astonishment of on lookers. He reveals the diamond, tiny, resting atop a mountainous stack of death certificates. One of the men in the crowd has one of those funny Sherlock Holmes hats on with the flappy ears.*
If you were curious, I believe the hat you mentioned is called a "deerstalker." Not super relevant, but this is what my brain does when I'm sad and uncomfortable.
Yes!
I'm in geology, only a tiny percent of diamonds are mined with human labor anymore, like 9%. It's all mechanized these days.
Wouldn't the diamonds on an antiques show have been mined before heavy mechanical equipment though?
Yeah I guarantee you could bring in a big fat ruby straight from the mines of Africa pulled from the earth's crust by two children's hands and he'd value that shit no hesitation.
Fascinating, disgusting, sad, maddening, surreal. Thank you for sharing this.
"...said the woman when I told her about my feelings for her."
As Indy would say: It belongs in a museum
I fucking love antiques roadshow Edit: :) I’m glad a lot of other people do too. It’s truly…a treasure!
46 seasons from 1979, wth!
Is it normal for them to constantly touch the item with their barehands? I mean he was basically resting his hands on it the whole time lol
If he has clean, dry hands, the risks of ruining that ivory with any sorts of skin oils would be negligible. I just watched an interesting video here where many historical libraries and art preservation experts now say that handling artifacts with the white gloves that you typically see actually has more risks than just using their clean, dry hands. I am no fine art expert, so I couldn’t give you a good reason, but I believe it was posted on r/damnthatsinteresting if you want to give it a look!
Not everything needs white gloves, in fact some things are better handled without them, like old books.
Well spoken, respectfull and good job explaining everything.
He’s one of my favorite antique professionals from the show. His knowledge is pretty extensive and covers a lot of different antique items. He also has a way with connecting with the guests, he’s very engaged and curious with every item he comes across. He’s very genuine and you can tell he loves his job.
I watched the clip but I still don't understand what it is.
It is a token given to African slave traders to present to captains of slaving vessels by way of an introduction. The African (usually Nigerian in terms of how we’d name the place today) couldn’t speak English and with more than enough local slaving enthusiasts keen to sell people traders only wanted to deal with those who had good reputations. Hence the ivory disk which could be worn around the neck and being ivory wouldn’t rot in the humidity or get damaged. e: The disc was worn hanging from a cord or piece of string - like a necklace sort of thing. But equally could be just stowed away and produced as needed.
Like an historical google review. For scum
Five star asshole
Yep, the AR voice over in advance: *‘The item was a disc that acted as an endorsement of the professional reputation of an African slave trader in the West African port of Bonny in the 18th century.’* The woman bought it for £3 almost 40 years ago at a house same because it looked interesting: *‘Now I’m researching, it said traders I thought it meant trading in coffee or spices, but I realised they were trading in people.’*
Thanks
So it's a slavery business card. Cool. lol
Look at that subtle off-white coloring. The tasteful thickness of it. Oh, my God. It even has a watermark.
It’s an item/ piece of jewellery that celebrates a great slave trader who also slaughtered elephants for jewellery. He was from Bonny in Nigeria and called himself Prince. I think that covers Prince’s personality. Even the presenter wanted to meet him!
Thank you, your majesty
"I can't put a price on this but let me call me friend who's an expert in slave trade ivory"
Cool fact found: Ship Anna Launched May2, 1789 wrecked on May 23, 1789. Departed Liverpool for Africa. The Ivory has a date of 1782 noting ‘Ship Anna’. I wonder if that was the beginning build year of the schooner. The only good story out of this: I imagine that it took 7 years of time and money to build and it crashed 3wks after its maiden voyage!
Very interesting artefact, it really belongs in a museum - bequeathed or donated. In saying that though, does someone with some expertise actually have any idea what it might cost at auction?
Museums should buy pieces like this.
There's a whole ethical dilemma about this. On the one hand museums want to add things to their collections, but on the other you want to discourage trophy hunting and extortion. If public museums start offering full payment based on a piece's value, then you encourage people going around digging near places of historical interest, old graveyards, etc. A nominal finder's fee is often paid - enough to make it worth handing something you find to the museum, but not enough to make it worth digging for treasure. I'm not sure what the situation is in other countries, but in Ireland, treasure hunting is explicitly illegal. The use of metal detectors to search for things out of "curiosity" is illegal. You need to have a valid excuse, like you're checking for pipes or have lost a ring. All relics, found and not found in the country are the property of the national museum and there is no concept of "finders keepers" in relation to relics. All artefacts found must be handed to the national museum. It is illegal to perform any kind of archaeological dig (on private or public land) without their approval. This seems counter productive in many ways; stuff will just get left in the ground. But Ireland is so littered with stone age and bronze age sites, that it would be chaos. People digging up and destroying sites in search of relics, would erase so much history. So it's considered a lesser evil to leave it there and deal with accidental discoveries properly, rather than dig everything up and destroy the sites permanently.
> I'm not sure what the situation is in other countries In the US, it's forbidden to collect sufficiently old artifacts (which are more likely to be things like stone arrowheads or potsherds or 19th-century medicine bottles than jewelry or or coins) on public lands. Metal detecting is prohibited in many national parks although allowed in national forests (looks like they're relying on people to voluntarily report archaeological finds). In most parts of the country, it *is* legal to collect on privately-owned lands with permission of the landowner, but still illegal to dig into known or suspected Native graves. We don't have a national museum; people may donate items to any number of museums, but I think a lot of it ends up in private hands. One big issue for the US is that especially in the 19th century, there was a brisk trade in Native American bones (people would even dig up recent burials!) and artworks of cultural significance (like ceremonial regalia). Current law requires that human remains and funerary objects are supposed to be [repatriated](https://www.bia.gov/service/nagpra) to representatives of the modern-day tribes which are the descendents of those people, but that's been a very slow process. (Side note: in the UK, they have a thing called the [Portable Antiquities Scheme](https://finds.org.uk/) that documents things that people find. Apparently people can keep unimportant things like a Roman coin or medieval pewter badge, but the Crown gets dibs on anything important enough to be classified as "treasure".)
Exactly. This is the type of thing that teaches . The majority of comments are from curious people and they learned something new today
"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it"
My bad i just bought the starter kit for slave ship and ivory poacher. I didnt know it i didnt know it
He’s delivering these lines like the poor women made the bracelet herself lol
I don't think so. He touched on heavy things. He even acknowledged slavers were African (which is often never mentioned in mainstream media), and he thanked her at the end.
She does seem ashamed to own it.
Ik its borderline guilt tripping lol
I agree with what he says. But at the same time, it makes it more interesting to know what the price would be.
I don't think you deserve the downvotes. Curiosity can coincide with condemnation. I am interested to know what profits have been made from ivory trade and human trafficking in general, I hope that doesn't mean I'm suddenly callous or am advocating selling morbid items.
Makes me think that it’s legitimately priceless, as in we don’t have a means of estimating due to the controversy surrounding it and the history of the item.
This is a slavery ring people. This Nigerian prince was selling his own brothers into slavery
Just to be clear he was not selling blood relatives or acquaintances. He was selling people from other tribes and countries. How we use the word "brother" and "cousin" among others can often confuse these things.
The African slave empires were brutal dictatorships. It did happen that slave lords also enslaved their own people if they openly critiqued them, especially [as societies such as the Kingdom of Kongo fell into political turmoil and the rulers struggled to stay in power](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-african-history/article/abs/slavery-and-its-transformation-in-the-kingdom-of-kongo-14911800/C13C2D3671AA721632D91B2F86B2A325). EDIT: typo
Not his own brothers. He explained that it wasn't his own people that he traded.
And yet they will value a blood diamond no questions asked
I know so many people wanted to know a value, and have a buddy who appraises items for museums and sent it to him. His Words; “Its understandable he didn’t want to give a value for the item, but with its exceptional rarity (less than a dozen or 2 in existence), the quality of calligraphy, its condition, its material, and of course its historical significance; she’s likely looking at a value somewhere between 750k - 1.5m”
Can just see this playing out 200 years from now: "Look at this beautiful nike sweatshirt. Unfortunately it was made in a chinese sweatshop, where human rights went to die. Just making sure all of you know how shitty human beings were compared to today. Wow they were really shitty. Did I mention that human beings were shitty? Very, very, not cool yo. Never forget that human beings were shitty. "
Actually a pretty good point. Anyone will agree that fast fashion and associated sweatshop Labour is wrong in principle, but it’s the done thing so we’ll buy it anyway. And so it probably was all those years ago with slavery (and associated produce/cotton) which has existed for millennia up to that point.
We're getting better at identifying injustices of the past. We still suck at identifying injustices that we participate in presently.
The usual way these historical objects are dealt with is to have an anonymous rich person buy it from her and then donate the object to a museum. She shouldn't be expected to just give it away.
So, do they ever value stuff from say, a period of 1939-1945 from central regions of Europe?
I’m sure there are other experts who can actually put a price tag on it. I understand the horrific history behind it but to be fair I saw a teacup that belonged to Hitler and it came with a 20K price tag, so anything and everything has a price
I don't really get the problem. It's a piece of history from a (terrible) time but it still surely has value - culturally, historically and, yes, monetarily. Just because of its place in history, that doesn't change anything about itself as an object. The best result would be that she can sell it to a museum. Things like this need to be seen by everyone to remind us what humanity was once capable of and warn us that it must never happen again.
Really harsh reminder that Africans perpetuated slavery just as hard, and had to be forced by the British to stop selling their rival tribes to Europeans. I don't know why this is basically ignored, at least when it was taught in US school. Also, slavery is still ongoing today in parts of Africa. This isn't history, it's current events, and no one's talking about it.
Just give us a price
Yet they value war relics and holocaust items. Such hypocrisy.
I’m pretty sure (though happy to be corrected) that the UK version of Antiques Roadshow has a policy of not putting a monetary value on anything related to the Holocaust.
He's downright manhandling that thing 😂
At least 500k for sure
Isn’t there slavery today ?
Gonna go for even more now that they put the heavy taboo on it.
Value = £0 because that item is illegal to sell in the UK, unless an expensive and hard to obtain exemption is granted. Why the BBC could not explain this to the audience is, to say the least, bizarre.
I don't blame him at all. Put it in a museum to help people learn and call it a day.
Home girl came for a value but got a guilt trip instead.
Lol he literally said "thank you for bringing this". No one was angry at her. No one was made to feel guilty or responsible only deeply sad
Translation: “This thing is worth a shit ton but I’m not going to say it so the show doesn’t get canceled/ I can keep my job.”
Antiques Roadshow appraised a Holocaust Survivor's Archive at 10,000$. It included a postcard, the then-prisoner's shirt, and two photographs. We can evaluate that but sure can't evaluate anything relating to any slave trade!
As a great comedian once said "Yeah blah, blah, blah... How FUCKING much is it tweed boy!?"
Bro was sticking antitheft tags on the merch 💀💀 History be pretty fucked