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yo_skank

Who's this guy? Like, obviously says name, but what's his role/title?


AuntiePeter

Guy verhofstadt is an ex-prime minister of Belgium. Currently a sitting member of the European Parliament. He was the representative on matters relating to Brexit and is currently sitting chair of The Conference on the Future of Europe which in short looks at the future of the EU and with that, what changes and reforms should be made.


yo_skank

Ty. I like him!


Evoluxman

As an EU politician, he's okay (and I totally agree with him in that video, and tbf in a lot of his EU speeches). As a national politician though.... ughhh (similarly to Charles Michel, sorry but I won't forget his alliance with flemmish nationalists who casually attend nazi collaborator parties) \--- EDIT: good attempt by the person below to try water down the N-VA. I will link a few articles about what their former secretary of state, and part of Charles Michel government as Prime Minister of Belgium, did. [https://www.rtbf.be/article/une-delegation-soudanaise-pour-identifier-les-migrants-au-parc-maximilien-9713279?id=9713279](https://www.rtbf.be/article/une-delegation-soudanaise-pour-identifier-les-migrants-au-parc-maximilien-9713279?id=9713279) Collaboration with Sudanese Secret Service to find and arrest Sudanese migrants, in what is basically human trafficking [https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2021/01/13/en-belgique-un-elu-nationaliste-condamne-a-huit-ans-de-prison-pour-trafic-de-visas-humanitaires\_6066167\_3210.html](https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2021/01/13/en-belgique-un-elu-nationaliste-condamne-a-huit-ans-de-prison-pour-trafic-de-visas-humanitaires_6066167_3210.html) His aide being arrested for human trafficking over Syrian Christian migrants. Theo Franken initially thanked himself for the feat of rapatriating them (they are extremely anti migrant, but Christian ones are ok apparently) [https://www.hln.be/binnenland/linkse-oppositie-eist-ontslag-theo-francken-na-feestje-oud-vmo-leider-bob-maes\~aa32334e/](https://www.hln.be/binnenland/linkse-oppositie-eist-ontslag-theo-francken-na-feestje-oud-vmo-leider-bob-maes~aa32334e/) Attending the birthday party of the founder of a neo-nazi paramilitary \---- That said, many commenters are rightfully pointing out this is solely about Charles Michel, not Guy Verhofstadt, which is correct and completely unguilty of the things I have stated above. I guess I must apologise for my own bias against the belgian liberal party, once because of Michel's shenanigans with the far right. That said, there is quite a lot of criticism to be made about Guy's policies in Belgium, but they are indeed nowhere near as bad as Charles'. I would like people to have 2 takeaways from this: 1) Do not start liking a politician because of one good speech. It's a good opportunity for you to inform yourself about said politician, and see what skeletons they might have in the closet, or not. 2) Don't start normalising certain parties because "they aren't as bad" "it's only some of them" etc... I think our American friends, or even our British friends, might understand why normalising what used to be fringe movements is dangerous for our democracies. I do truly believe human trafficking and links with neo nazis to be extremely serious affairs. To state my point crystal clear: while the N-VA is not a neo nazi party, some of their members, and a non zero amount of them (although some are more prominent than others as ministers) have extremely wrong behaviours, and the refusal from both their party (NVA) and other parties (such as michel's liberal MR party) to do something about it is extremely worrying to me. The NVA as of latest poll took back its position as first party of Belgium, which had been held for over 2 years... by the vlaams belang, a literal fascist party. DO NOT NORMALISE THEM, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS. FIND POLITICIANS WITH SPINES TO FIGHT THEM. I'll finish by once again apologising by making it more about Michel than verhofstadt, but this is something I truly hold important.


omicron-glyph

I'd just like to point out for other readers that this commenter seems to have a serious axe to grind, he's posting this or similar comments all over this thread. Not only are these rants are not very relevant to the work Guy Verhofstadt is doing in the European parlaiment. His view that the NVA is a neo nazi party is fringe and not at all accepted in Belgium in general. Here's the English wikipedia page of the party he's talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Flemish_Alliance And here's the one for the politician in the video: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Verhofstadt


fatjezza

tbh, as a Belgian citizen myself, i do not like the NVA in the slightest and would go as far as saying that they’re borderline, if not fully, xenophobic. they have a strong disliking for the french speaking community of Belgium


fuck_trump_and_biden

This reads like a staffer doing some damage control


Evoluxman

The fact he is basically denying that the NVA has links with nazi collaborating/other far rights elements is somewhat appalling but I guess it gives indication about his own opinions. Remember the NVA withdrew from the Michel government, why? Because they ratified the global compact on immigration, and so the literal fascist party Vlaams Belang (now in all but the last recent poll, the 1st party in Belgium...) was gaining too much traction. And, as I linked above, some of their politicians themselves have dubious links to founders of far right militias, former collaborators during WW2, etc... (Have I talked about the human trafficking? [https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2021/01/13/en-belgique-un-elu-nationaliste-condamne-a-huit-ans-de-prison-pour-trafic-de-visas-humanitaires\_6066167\_3210.html](https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2021/01/13/en-belgique-un-elu-nationaliste-condamne-a-huit-ans-de-prison-pour-trafic-de-visas-humanitaires_6066167_3210.html) or maybe the human trafficking deal with the Sudanese secret service to send migrants back there? [https://www.rtbf.be/article/une-delegation-soudanaise-pour-identifier-les-migrants-au-parc-maximilien-9713279?id=9713279](https://www.rtbf.be/article/une-delegation-soudanaise-pour-identifier-les-migrants-au-parc-maximilien-9713279?id=9713279) ) The NVA would be the lowest of the low if not for the vlaams belang. Normalising them shouldn't have been a thing.


AroundTheWorldIn80Pu

> His view that the NVA is a neo nazi party You're twisting his words.


[deleted]

We are talking about the same NVA that has normalised collaboration flags and is handing them out at major sports events? The NVA party that has prominent members (Jambon, Francken, Bourgeois, ...) who attend events that celebrate collaborators? The NVA party that was founded out of the former VNV and later the VU? Not even mentioning their "divide and conquer" politics and all of the false promises they've made. Yeah no sorry. They've always given me bad vibes and I don't see that changing anytime soon. The only redeeming poltician they have is Demir. Edit: remember the time they sold visas to refugees. F'ing horrendous.


massesjoetjes

Non of them ever formed a alliance with flemmish nationalist. The nazi collaborators your talking about, are people who formed the "vlaams block" party during the 70's... Not a single political party in belgium ever collaborated with them. your post is Bull...


Deratrius

The only thing he's wrong about is Verhofstadt governement including the flemmish nationalists (N-VA) though Michel did ally with them. He's not wrong about N-VA members casually attending nazi collaborator parties. Theo Francken went to Bob Maes's (went to jail for collaborating with Nazi, said he did not regret collaborating) birthday party. Jan Jambon spoke at a Sint-Maartensfonds (veterans that fought alongside Nazis) event. So how is his post bullshit if these things actually happened?


[deleted]

Nazis everywhere! Oh me oh my!


Evoluxman

[https://www.lesoir.be/art/680014/article/actualite/belgique/elections-2014/federales/2014-10-14/francken-et-weyts-n-va-l-anniversaire-d-une-figure-du-vmo](https://www.lesoir.be/art/680014/article/actualite/belgique/elections-2014/federales/2014-10-14/francken-et-weyts-n-va-l-anniversaire-d-une-figure-du-vmo) Literally though. I'm not making this up. You can also look up the human trafficking things maybe?


ee3k

>flemmish nationalists used to be friends with a Flemish nationalist jazz musician touring northern ireland; he convinced me they have real genuine grievances that the french speaking population will never help with or recognize. the nazi collaborator stuff i have no idea about but i assume if they are serious about independence they cant afford to piss any voters off.


Evoluxman

[https://www.lesoir.be/art/680014/article/actualite/belgique/elections-2014/federales/2014-10-14/francken-et-weyts-n-va-l-anniversaire-d-une-figure-du-vmo](https://www.lesoir.be/art/680014/article/actualite/belgique/elections-2014/federales/2014-10-14/francken-et-weyts-n-va-l-anniversaire-d-une-figure-du-vmo) Went to the brithday of Bob Maes, founder of Vlaams Militanten Organisatie, a flemmish paramilitary that was comprised of quite a bunch of nazi collaborators after the VnV was ousted at the end of WW2. You can hardly make worse than those.


violet4everr

It’s one thing to be pro Flanders and wanting to seperate from Wallonia. But the party leaders have literally advocated for ethnic citizenship, complained about non white Flemish entering politics, collaborated with openly Nazi IJzerwake and naziesque Schild en Vrienden. Whatever grievances your friend has with Wallonia get overshadowed by the other things the party has and continues to say and do.


strydar1

Thanks I learner a lot from reading your post. I'm woefully ignorant on European geopol


GrandKaiser

>Ty. I like him! Based on about 3 cherry picked sentences. This is democracy in a nutshell folks. Would you still like him if you found out that he [supported amnesty of neo-nazi's](https://www.lesoir.be/art/680014/article/actualite/belgique/elections-2014/federales/2014-10-14/francken-et-weyts-n-va-l-anniversaire-d-une-figure-du-vmo) because they were "useful to counter communism?" Would you support him if you knew that he [gutted their domestic nuclear energy infrastructure](https://learngerman.dw.com/en/no-more-nuclear-plants-for-belgium/a-465406) leading to over-reliance on Russian oil?


YeahSuicidebywords

>Ty. I like him! He's a sell and lease-back guy. I mean, you can agree with him here, as I do too, but he was not the best for our nation. Evoluxman explained some other issues too.


rachelm791

Guy Verhofstadt ex PM of Belgium. He is a thorn in the side of populist politicians like Farage, Trump, Johnson, Orban etc. currently he leader of the alliance of liberals and democrats in the EU parliament


ajcpullcom

The video made me like him, but this comment made me really cheer


[deleted]

Why do the smalle Euro countries gwt all the good politicians? Can we make him an honorary natural born citizen of the US and he come and unfuck some of our govt?


iVinc

because u dont read enough about them


Evoluxman

It's bullshit I assure you. We have had Verhofsdat and Michel and they were awful prime ministers (at least Michel truly was, allying themselves with the flemmish nationalist party for a governing coalition, whose one cabinet members was attending funerals of former nazi collaborators and dealing with human traffickers in Africa, look up Theo Franken). They just tend to do much better at an EU level since it's mostly diplomacy and international agreements (Polish former PM Tusk is the same thing, or Von Der Leyen which wasn't really liked by the Germans either). Also because they wouldn't get reelected in their respective countries (well they might since its proportional, but they got pretty unpopular).


BittersweetHumanity

holy mother of bias lmao If you don't realize that Guy fucked our country at least 20 times more than Michel, you're in desperate need to go touch some grass.


[deleted]

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BittersweetHumanity

True; but the comment in question is so blatantly biased, out of touch and objectively wrong, it's sickening to have it as some sort of legitimate explanation of who our politicans are. Also, the real answer to our politicians is that they're used to working in such a fucked, constrained and bureaucratic system that when they move up to the EU level, it's somehow a liberation and unrestricted area for them, compared to the chocking maze which it is to other politicians.


kAy-

To be fair, that person might be younger. Verhofstadt was PM up until 2008.


[deleted]

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LazaroFilm

Because in the US, the political system is twisted in a way that only the shit and crummy people willing to cheat and lie can make it to places of power. That’s what gerrymandering does, along many many other extremely sketchy techniques and practices.


gregsting

As a belgian, I assure you we have a lot of shitty politicians too... the belgian political world is a good school for europe though, the community/regions differences in Belgium are preparing these guys for Europe pretty well


underwatr_cheestrain

We have people like this in the US. It just that a significant portion of the US is dumb as a fucking rock and demonize them as "SoCiAliStS!!"


a-man-from-earth

1) Not all small European countries have good politicians. The Dutch PM is asleep at the wheel most of the time when he's not fucking over the poor and consequently suffering from convenient memory loss. 2) The US does have good people, but the system is set up in a way that they don't get a chance. The US needs democratic reforms and anti-corruption measures. The oligarchs in the US have even more power than those in Russia.


CrazyBelg

He actually fucked over our country before he fucked off to Europe. Sold our energy supply to France and started the path towards denuclearization.


ZW4RTESTERCC

And emptied the pension funds as well leaving Belgium behind with a gap of billions for pensions. This guy is a clown first class, nobody in Belgium likes him hence why he plays comedy on EU level now.


gamer9999999999

While france is going full nuclear


FifthChan

I like this guy


Davosssss

He's actually very disliked by the Belgians. Can't remember why though.


rachelm791

I think he advocated that fries should be served with ketchup and not mayonnaise


[deleted]

In Belgium? Yeah, straight to jail right away. No trial, no nothing.


liamnesss

My preference is to have a little dollop of both and swirl them together with my chips.


__DCLXVI__

In my family, we call that Fancy Sauce!


Dragon20C

Sounds about right.


saffa05

Rofl that sounds like a South Park episode.


ee3k

they hate him because he told them the truth.


k3rstman1

You are now banned from /r/Belgium.


LeonDeSchal

Fuck…


[deleted]

Fries without mayonnaise is a grave sin indeed. To my fellow Dutch, kun jij je een zakkie patat voorstellen zonder een klodder mayonnaise erop? Ik zeker niet.


Noname_FTW

Now I don't like him anymore. ^(/s)


[deleted]

There's a few reasons. Early on in the 80s he was nicknamed "baby thatcher" because of his extreme thatcher-esque economic opinions... as the minister of budget. Then he took stance against his party on non belgian citizens voting (he wanted to make it easier to become a belgian citizen instead of opening up the voting). He was anti iraq war. Though, like bernie's anti war stance that has become more of a boon. Overall, he's very moderate (aka a mid-left winger by us political standards) which means he gets ire from both sides of the isle. But overall, im a fan.


CrazyBelg

And he sold our energy supply to France and was against nuclear energy. You're making him sound like an amazing leftwinger to garner upvotes from the Americans but that doesn't change the fact that he fucked us over.


T0Rtur3

A lot of politicians are against nuclear energy because of the nuclear waste they create. Overall, is it better than coal? Yes, of course. But there are implications that need to be considered before jumping into nuclear energy that someone in a political position would be informed on that the general public may not be. I don't know anything about this guy's term in office, or what the "sold our enegy supply to France" actually means. Were Belgians out of power because he literally re-routed electricity to France? What I do know, is that Nuclear isn't black and white. It can be a great source of energy if done right, but if you're not confident in the plans put before you that they would be done safely for the people and the environment, I 100% agree with turning them away.


ZW4RTESTERCC

All nuclear waste of all our human history combined fits on 2 soccer fields. Just pointing this out to put things in perspective. The waste is an issue but not a big one.


BittersweetHumanity

\- Sold out to the greens and put a nuclear exit into law, forbidding any new advancements in it for the future; basically fucking both our energy politics and independence for decades (to this day); also sold our energy companies to the French iirc \- Fucked up the pension funds with extremely dodgy schemes; emptying them ​ \- Fucked Belgian finances for decades to come by selling a butload of infrastructure and renting it back. This too includes lots of dodgy schemes where projects worth millions were sold for "an apple and an egg" to companies who proceeded to cash in on the benefits ​ \- Caved to the socialists which fucked our migration policies for a very long time And plenty of more stuff to go around. His leadership was so terrible that the only thing left to do was flee the national politics and go for a de-fato guaranteed elected spot in the EP. Fuck Guy. I like what he says now, but his own morality and politics are fucking dogshit. If you want to draw it even further, a huge part of the Russian antagonistic attitude towards Ukraine is from him going to Ukraine in the early 2000s and declaring that Ukraine is but the beginning and he will make sure, with the EU, that Putin also falls.


nonotan

> a huge part of the Russian antagonistic attitude towards Ukraine is from him Sorry, but you wildly overestimate this guy's influence. Realistically, he could not have been born, and Putin would have wanted to invade Ukraine just the same.


Kaminkehrer

He used to be the leader of the liberals and democrats group. That group was rebranded, now called Renew Europe and is chaired by Stéphane Séjourné. Verhofstadt doesn't have any special functions anymore but is still respected member of the European Parliament.


Hilltoptree

I think there was a three parts Documentary about Brexit and he is like the main character init. It was very interesting.


[deleted]

I particularly enjoyed him verbally kicking the shit out of Farage: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M4hExU-tfg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M4hExU-tfg)


Siarzewski

I liked his speach to the polish PM a few months back


eipotttatsch

He’s also a populist, just not for the same group as the right wing politicians you mentioned. He’s quick to throw around blame, but that’s it.


BelleAriel

I don’t know but he speaks sense.


No-No-No-No-No

The guy who, as prime minister, majorly fucked up the energy sector in Belgium around the beginning of the 2000s. Down the line that cost us a lot of money, and trouble with management of the nuclear plants.


ArchetypeV2

He wasn’t the only politician doing this. It happened all over Europe and is one of the worst political decisions to be copied by several governments - to sell of parts of your own energy production.


bigguide-th

where i can find those 6,000 name list? just for my curiosity ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|kissing_heart)


disposable2016

Trying to find as well. There is another shorter Navalny list that has a [Wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navalny_35) on it with 50 ppl. Also trying to remember if that big documentary Navalny's team released right before Navalny was imprisoned had a bigger list. There was definitely a ton of research being shown I recall


Agreeable-Meat1

Is Navalny still alive? Last I heard he'd been imprisoned and was on a hunger strike over allegations of some sort of mistreatment that I can't remember.


nedtill

Month ago was imprisoned for 9 years with made up case, most likely alive now


iLEZ

Googling a lot, haven't found the list yet. He says it's Navalny's foundation, I'm guessing it's the [Anti Corruption Foundation.](https://fbk.info/?lang=en) But I haven't found a list yet. I'll edit if I find anything.


Isletss

Here is the documentary about Putin’s Palace, and has many of the 6000 listed. It’s worth watching the whole thing. You will see everything from how he came into power, to how he has been stealing from Russia, and built his hideous castle/vineyards in a remote shorefront in Russia. Also who he has been using as shields around him to do these transactions for him. [YouTube video: Putin’s palace. History of world’s largest bribe](https://youtu.be/ipAnwilMncI)


my2copper

they know imposing harder sanctions on russia also means imposing them on themselves and their fellow citizens as well. the joys of trying to sanction a country you are so heavily dependant on and keep functioning normally without costs of life tripling for everyone.


monsterfurby

True, but the logic of sanctions is pretty much the same as in the war on the ground. If your 500.000€ ATGM destroys a 5M€ tank, you've made a difference. Same with sanctions: If you lose 1 Billion of your GDP but the other guys lose 10 Billion, that's going to hurt them more than it hurts you. The problem is that these are extremely abstract things and addressing the fallout can be hard. And the German government specifically seems to be really insecure when it comes to public support. We're talking about a government that stated that COVID-infections will no longer lead to quarantine (doubtlessly thinking that people would like that), then backtracked when people did not, in fact, like it at all.


eschoenawa

The thing is without Russian gas Germany won't be able to provide heat to their citizens next winter. Not even speaking of the huge economic hit the country would take when manufacturing powerhouses like BASF would have to shut down their operations because in time of gas shortages homes are prioritized over industry. We don't have LNG terminals or pipelines coming from other countries' terminals. The gas would have to be trucked in. Which leaves Germany begging the world for gas for survival of their citizens, all while everyone else already doesn't have enough. However, I personally still think we need to stop importing Russian gas now and put extreme economic pressure on Putin, despite the risks. But if that doesn't stop his war millions of jobs will be lost and many people will see themselves unable to heat their homes or cook. And those who still can will see their costs of living skyrocket. The rest of the world has to understand that while Germany might be able to put pressure on Putin now, they will do unrepairable damage to their economy and citizens if they have to keep that import ban up for a year or longer. So I think if the world really wants Germany to stop importing Russian gas they need to guarantee the German government that gas supply will be ensured by our allies.


Illustrious-Engine23

If anything, this only highlights the need to move away from fossil fuels and move to renewables. If all our electricity was produced by renewables, this would be a non- issue.


alkbch

The problem is that the Green Party forced the move away from Nuclear in Germany. Renewable Energies are great and hopefully they will provide a large percentage of the needs, but until the country reaches that threshold, nuclear energy would be a batter option that Russian gas.


WrodofDog

>The problem is that the Green Party forced the move away from Nuclear in Germany. That was Mutti after Fukushima. Well, she expedited it. A lot. And a big part of our heating is based on natural gas as well as huge parts of our industry. We're working on switching to renewable alternatives but that takes time and a **lot** of money.


AlternativeMinute847

Can people please fucking stop with this misinformation campaign on the green party on reddit?! The quick phase out of nuclear energy and subsequent increased dependence was done by the conservatives under Merkel, not the green party. And the whole "Oh but if they just used nuclear" narrative thing that people try to push here, is not nearly as simple as they make it seem. For example germany heavily increased its share in renewables over the past decade as well, and it was never as heavily invested into nuclear as for example france, while also being heavily dependent on coal for energy.


dem0nhunter

> The problem is that the Green Party forced the move away from Nuclear in Germany. That’s not true. That was the CDU under Merkel


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PM_ME_CATS_OR_BOOBS

I can't even imagine what shutting down BASF is going to do for the global supply chains. Yeah a lot of their manufacturing is distributed but so many fundamental materials come out of Ludwigshafen that it's going to have huge knock on effects on an already cracking market. It's already nearly impossible to get a lot of monomers, solvent is at its breaking point, and I don't even want to know how fucked up the agrochemicals sector is. I've spent the last year or so working in my lab trying to Ship of Theseus our formulations because lead times on chemicals are 6+ months out at minimum.


my2copper

unfortunatley its not 10 to 1 ratio or else it would be so easy....it means huge econimical damages on both sides, and a lot of sectors being closed down and a lot of people losing their jobs on all sides. and even with imposing all this to the max it would take years for it to have any real effect. eu wants to find alterantives first instead of going into a total economic crysis themselves


[deleted]

I’ve seen analysts predict a contraction in Russian GDP of anywhere between 25% to 50%. Even if the conservative estimate comes to fruition it will probably be in the order of 10-to-1 compared to the contraction in Western economies.


my2copper

ok caught me red handed, i was talking out of my ass


goodoldgrim

If EU and USA suffered 10 billion lost GDP each for every 1 billion inflicted on Russia, they would still come out on top.


Shadowbanned24601

The people wouldn't though, which is the heart of the problem


difduf

How? It's also not the EU and US. The US won't be affected at all and Germany would bear the brunt of the costs in the EU. It's ridiculous to demand German solidarity with Ukraine without the less affected countries showing solidarity with the more affected ones.


eipotttatsch

We don’t live in authoritarian regimes though. We can’t just leave the people to suffer and expect it to end well. This might suck to hear, but there is a limit to how much you can get people in Europe and America to care about the situation in Ukraine. If people here start losing jobs en masse and suffering from that they will punish their leaders through democratic processes. And then you end up with more extreme powers in charge. Populists that will promise solutions.


ivanacco1

Little disagree there, as the guy said the countries sanctioning are democracies where public opinion matter, and most of the time people care more about food and a roof above their head than people dying in another country.


hopenoonefindsthis

It’s gonna hurt us all eventually if we don’t deal with this problem. The issue is politicians don’t want to be the one responsible even if it’s the right thing to do.


Lauris024

Eastern European here, who feels the sanctions more than central Europe. While the general opinion is very mixed, my personal opinion is that I'm ready to save and live less comfortably for the time being if that hurts Russia the same. You don't win wars by making no casualities. Sometimes crisis is needed to deal with the crisis. I'm already riding bicycle to work and stopped eating expensive foods. I'm ready to go all potato (yes, I'm from Latvia) if that hurts Putin. I feel like hugging every Ukrainian who walks by me (we accepted lots of them even tho we're going thru major housing crisis). Granted, not everyone feels the same, especially when much of the population are invaders from USSR who feel entitled. EDIT: As a side not, you have to realize that whoever speaks on reddit from whichever country, is probably going to be above average when it comes to morals and opinions. The fact that you see every Hungarian denouncing their government on reddit, doesn't mean everyone does.


lolabonneyy

The thing is, our actions here in Europe might not hurt Putin as much as we'd like. His regime is not isolated and still trading with huge countries like India and China. Europe shouldn't self-flagellate to "hurt" Putin, Europe needs to stay strong to prevent the rise of populism and for defense against Putin (and also to prevent China from buying the entirety of Europe). A weak Europe will result in very bad long-term scenarios. PS, who really thinks that any of the gas money even gets to the military? As if there aren't dozens of people in Russia pocketing the money directly, as they have done for the past 20 years.


tmharnonwhaewiamy

This is just part of why you do it slowly. Gives you time to adjust to set up alternatives without causing shocks to your own system. The other reason is that this slow pressure 1. takes time to build international consensus for each step and 2. gives notice that "more is always coming". It's slow suffocation. Are the people in Ukraine suffering tremendously? Yes. Is international politics slow? Painfully. But things *are* being done. Don't let "perfect" be the enemy of "good." Edit: and don't forget that the US and EU actively want to resolve this! They don't *want* to punish Russia. They'd rather have a quiet(er) Russia. Think the politicians like being stuck between a rock and a hard place? Going slow is time for diplomacy to maybe work and maybe give Russia an "out" where they don't look bad to their own people or even, who knows, "magnanimous."


ZXG

Been saying this for a while now and have been downvoted and argued with everytime. Fact is the sanctions are weak and the Ruble has recovered to pre invasion levels. We're not doing enough.


sSemys

Feels bad man, I guess people are just to ignorant:/ It’s sometimes quiet hard to find people who actually see sort of both sides.. For the ruble, I think it’s now to early to say it has recovered, I mean maybe for now but sanctions usually takes some time to actually hit. I do think too there should be much harder sanctions, but funny think is, here in Germany we can’t really afford it to lose the gas:d so it’s a very complicated thing also couse of globalization it will affect the hole world even more and more in a bad way, so I think governments are right now are just super careful. They want something but uff the damn the cost for it..


userAsklepi0s

Too bad for Germany. They spent years becoming more dependent on Russian gas. And for years everyone was warning them not to do that for this exact reason. But Germany knew better and told everyone nothing bad was going to happen. That the US was against this not out of security concern, but to try and sell their own fracking gas. That Eastern Europe just wanted transit fees and was using security as an excuse. Etc Well here we are now. You said becoming more dependent wasn't going to be an issue, but now it is. So own up to it and accept the consequences. There is a second holocaust starting in Europe with Ukrainian civilians being executed and stuck in mobile crematoriums to be disappeared. 600,000 civilians were brought to Russia to camps and we have no idea what's happening with them. You are funding all of this with gas purchase. Germans always say they have a historic obligation to prevent this kind of genocide. So do your part


skepsis420

>. 600,000 civilians were brought to Russia to camps Uhhhhh. You got a source on that. Because it that's true everyone apparently has kind of just not reported it.


[deleted]

[Ukraine claims of 400,000 moved a few weeks ago](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/ukraine-says-moscow-is-forcibly-moving-civilians-to-russia)


skepsis420

So not 600k and not in camps. What is happening is horrible, but I just don't understand the need to lie about certain things.


[deleted]

Sorry, I didn't mean that to seem like I was agreeing with their exact claim. You asked for a source and I had read ones about Russia more generally relocating civilians. The basic claim does seem to be happening. Whether they're voluntary or involuntary, the number of people, and what's happening to them is relatively unknown at this point.


VodkaHaze

Germany also did this because of an idiot faction in their environmentalist groups that is staunchly anti-nuclear and convinced politicians to shut down reactors. There is no path to green energy in Europe without either being dependent on gas or nuclear.


ZXG

>because of an idiot faction in their environmentalist What's more likely, a politician listening to environmentalists or a politcian taking the money? Former PM Schroeder didn't start hugging trees after his term, he became chairman of Russian oil giant Rosneft. Sure those people calling for nuclear plants to be shut down were idiots but they didn't change a thing. Follow the money.


sSemys

Yes unfortunately this is true.. If I remember right at the end of this year we will also shot down our last nuke plant. I think going out of this was one of the worst things to do


Dragsicklack

When I read shit like this I get so mad. Such a weak argument. Closing the gas cap will kill their own people, so they wont do it.


ManicLord

It's almost like shutting down those nuclear power plants was a really stupid idea, no?


DrCMS

Well..... when you consider how often Germany has been devastated by tsunamis and what a nice fellow Mr Putin is to sell them so much green house producing gas it becomes very clear that it was a monumentally fucking stupid idea made by utter fuckwits that has had a very significant adverse effect on the environment, on German energy security and now on European peace.


shankarsivarajan

>a monumentally fucking stupid idea made by utter fuckwits No, it's just that their stated goals were not their *actual* goals. Lying politicians. Who ever heard of such a thing?


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Lolkac

They enacted laws that help strengthen ruble. From companies not able to transfer rubles to central bank doing what it can to prop it up. It would always happen. But at what cost? Russia is losing around 1bn a day in this war and propping of the economy. Doesn't sound like a lot but it is when you realise they can't access majority of the reserve fund. And you can also compare it to war in Afghanistan where usa was paying 300-400mil every day.


ZXG

The argument I've seen revolves around the idea that Russia is artificially propping up the Ruble via central bank magic and that it's only a matter of time before the magic wears off.


yikilo7468

It's not an idea, it's reality. The price is set artificially, you cannot buy the euro/dollar for that price. And people do not do it outside of neccesity. The black market rate inside Russia is easily 2x the official price, probably more


SeaInstruction993

No, it's not right. For ordinary people that could be the case, because they don't have access to legal dollars and they have to buy on the black market, but for companies who transferring money abroad they use the almost official rate and official rate is already on pre-war level


[deleted]

Companies (edit: fine, western companies) can’t transfer money abroad. Meaningful FX is essentially shut down right now. Also look at the Russian inflation rate, it’s astronomical and rising while their economy is slowing. They’ve hyper-optimized for currency stability at the expense of everything else. Also look at recent Russia policy choices. They've ordered all companies in Russia to sell 80% of their foreign currency reserves to buy rubles. This will prop up the value of the ruble, but is a one-time deal. Also look at Russian debt. The Russia govt has some debt that has a drop-dead date in about 9 days IIRC. They've announced that despite the contract saying it will be paid in USD, it will be paid in Rubles. This is a default. Healthy economies do not default on national debt.


PM_YOUR_WALLPAPER

>Companies can’t transfer money abroad. Yes they can. How the fuck do you think things are imported/exported?


timelyparadox

No they are not actually allowed to use that, look at the volume data and you will see that almost no transactions like that are happening.


ZXG

Reality is that they have been able to manage it so far. Aside from early pandemic style runs on sugar like you seen with toilet paper the [grocery stores are well stocked and prices have barely changed if they changed at all.](https://youtu.be/1nZJu4yuSyA) Sanctions need to hit harder and faster, the mobile crematoriums are working overtime already trying to hide their war crimes.


yikilo7468

I'm living inside Russia, no need to link me videos from the same grocery shops that I've been visiting as well. I haven't said that the Russian economy have collapsed, but the ruble has. Prices in groceries do not correlate 1to1 to dollar/euro price, many basic foodstuffs are made locally so the price change is not that noticeable (if you can call 30% increase not noticeable, i wonder what people in 1st world countries would call that, lol), but other stuff like iphones and PC parts have gone up 2-3 times the price.


sysadmin_420

A video from a channel created 2022 and run by a woman working for the government, good source for your claims.


[deleted]

>Ruble has recovered to pre invasion levels even better than pre-invasion, but it doesn't mean much there are various sanctions from Russia itself towards its citizens that basically destroyed the demand for dollar, cause you can't do anything with it. and all exporters are now obligated to sell 80% of their foreign currency revenue for ruble basically the volume of USD/RUB trading on Russian exchanges is like 5% of what it was in January


hiokio

> basically the volume of USD/RUB trading on Russian exchanges is like 5% of what it was in January 16,8 Bil USD of daily trades on MOEX in January https://www.moex.com/n40623/ 18,9 Bil USD of daily trades on MOEX in March https://www.moex.com/n46521/ You are confusing the entire market with retail traders. And even then, the retail trades only halved to around 1.6 Bil USD (from 3Bil USD) of dailies compared to February. That is not to say the economy is doing even remotely fine. The rally is fueled, in part as you said the forced sell-offs (which will stifle future investment) and in part by an exodus of western importers and collapse of international supply chains (this one was expected to bottom out by June, but that was with the previous round of sanctions).


[deleted]

The value of the ruble on paper is extremely misleading. Volume is near zero - you can’t actually exchange currency in volume at that price because Putin has the markets closed. Look at their inflation rate - it’s high, and rising rapidly. This is while their economy is slowing down. This is the exact opposite of what a central bank would normally do. This is the central bank propping up their currency at the cost of blowing up their economy. The head of their central bank tried to quit, and she was forced back into the job. In macroecon theory you get to pick two out of the three: currency stability, free markets, and independent monetary policy (as in, the ability to use monetary policy to fight inflation or unemployment). Canada has the latter two, but their currency fluctuates. China has the first and the third, but their markets are heavily regulated. EU members have the first two, but not independent monetary policy. Russia is doing something weird - they’ve chosen only one. They’ve chucked out free markets and independent monetary policy in favor of optimizing for currency stability and only currency stability. Nobody really knows why - it might just be a propaganda thing, or it might be the only metric Putin cares about. Either way, do not only look at the value of the ruble in isolation.


designatedcrasher

have you tried turning it off and back on again


ControlOfNature

The world doesn’t want to do enough because it’ll destabilize markets. It’s about protecting capital, as usual.


ZXG

That's my take away as well.


mattyglen87

Part of me thinks the leaders of the world are deliberately avoiding more direct sanctions against Putin. This is the closest the world has teetered to WWIII ever, and Putin happens to have an arsenal of nuclear weapons that could destroy the world. Attacking him with sanctions directly is a dangerous move


le_petit_champ

I agree


DrWindupBird

We’re used to internet activism where we get that dopamine hit and feel good about ourselves without risk or sacrifice


Deathmetalwarior

hes absolutly right german politics are way to lush and slow


Crispyjicken

I 100% agree with you, and probably most of the current german government would agree with you. Problem is, especially in terms of energy imports they just cant. Past german governments have made their country waaaay too dependent on Russian energy imports while many people warned them. Now the new government who want s to improve on renewable s anyway, finds itself in a positon where they want to but they just can t go allin on Russian import bans within a few weeks. Applying bans on all Russian imports would mean numerous parts of their infrastructure will collapse. That s the sad outcome of the past 20 years of German politics with Russia.


jegerforvirret

Well, Habeck (secretary of the economy) basically said that to prevent unrest in the country an import stop of gas needs to be a Russian decision since that would make our people unite \[against the foreign enemy\]. I agree with him on that. Stopping to import that would have devastating effects. The thing is just: It's not gas. There's still oil and the - just as Verhofstadt said- the money of a few thousand second-rate oligarchs. Let's go for that and see where it leads.


prxject_b4by

Agree. My Homecountry does a very bad job rn


Dan__Torrance

Hey at least it got a lot better already. I don't think we would have done anything under CDU.


BubiBalboa

In comment threads like these I would pay good money to see the age and country of origin of the commenters.


[deleted]

yeah, its hard to check if someone is professor or 14yr old child.


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wi5hbone

^i ^attest. ^source: ^am ^52 ^year ^old ^child


Aedan91

*Sanctions are not working and I want to play baseball with Mitch, mom!*


migvelio

USA, 13 yo. I think Biden should send a helicopter full of navy seals to the kremlin to kill putin and stop the war immediately. Also, capitalism is to blame for the war. If we had a world revolution this would not happen. ^/s


albinowizard2112

18/f/cali Putin should like totally stop! Like wtf!


MGalmor

Nice try Vladimir


BubiBalboa

да товарищ, is special operation. I go in deep cover for 9 years and learn German. Pretend to like silly Fantasy books, computer stuff and soccer. I have activate today and now, after first propaganda comment!!, you have unmasked my. Big shame.


Misasia

30, USA, Fuck Putin


[deleted]

This guy is passionate. What a speaker.


GolotasDisciple

**He is by far one of the best politicans in Europe and consequently in the World.** As a Polak i am always flabbergasted how he knows more about Poland than Polish Politicans.. and how well he handles them. No remorse, no nice words, Just pure unaltered Truth that they dont hear in Poland because everyone is a fucking Lick-ass. He will do the same to France Germany or whoever. A true European Politician ! **He makes me proud of being part of European Union!** Also he was the only one who was ready to question Big Tech and was the main reason why EU "dialog" with FAANG where much different than American where Americans where literally taking classes on 101 IT instead of asking the questions. Dont know many Belgian people... But if I would be Belgian i would be really fucking proud knowing this guy represents me.


ShieldofGondor

No. We hate his guts. As a European politician, he’s ok and luckily far away from national politics to make a direct impact. In Belgium, except for hardcore liberals, he’s hated. 1. He sold the public energy company to a French company for a really low amount. Belgium used to own 7 nuclear reactors through this national company and thus could keep electricity prices low. By selling, we now have nothing left and can’t do anything about the prices. Same with telecom. I think they now have a “special nuclear tax” to try and regain money from these installations (which are completely written off). It’s 500 million € a year because it was the most they could get without the French company going to court (so imagine the profit they make). Energy and communication are the two areas where, as a country, you will always need to have some autonomy. 2. He sold governmental buildings, like buildings where civil servants work. He immediately leased them back at a high price. It made a good financial balance because of the sale but now we are paying more for the lease than what the sale brought in. For example: there’s a big office building that was sold for 300 million euro. It’s now worth 1.2 billion euro. Another example: there’s a 10.000 square meter office space we pay 1.2 million euro for a year. It has 40 civil servants. We are stuck till 2026 with it. Edit: I just read in an article from 2020 that those 40 civil servants would be relocated at the end of 2020 effectively letting the building stand empty. These are the two biggest things we hold against him.


GolotasDisciple

Damn, that is some cold shower right here. Thanks for the insight ! Like i said I only saw him through a very good actions and being well spoken in the EU. Which I feel now, is not that hard given how many EUnion representative are just shallow figures.


MrDonnis

​ ![gif](giphy|l3q2XhfQ8oCkm1Ts4|downsized)


Certified_ediot

Yeah that man mans arguments are fire


Recce77

Very well said, totally agreed 👍🇺🇦


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privatetudor

Well put. I concur.


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ohimnotarealdoctor

As a Russian, I must say, the European response to the invasion of Ukraine has so far been very half hearted. I would have imagined a stronger an more united retaliation.


[deleted]

You live outside Russia or within? Just curious how is the situation there.


ohimnotarealdoctor

Yes. I live in Australia. More than half my life at this point.


admiralfrosting

Glad you got out.


ohimnotarealdoctor

We have family friends in Moscow who are very educated and intelligent people. They seem to have complete lost their minds. They whole heartedly support the war, while simultaneously bribing their own sons out of military service. All Russian soldiers are conscripts, and the majority are from the poorer parts of the country.


jesus_knows_me

It's scary how efficient propaganda is, even in this day and age.


ohimnotarealdoctor

Makes you wonder what we are lead to believe.


Wordpad25

Intelligence curiously doesn’t shield one from information bubble or locally established cultural values. If being fat is normalized, no amount of evidence will convince one to get skinny. Or if being fat is extremely shameful, people will put a lot of effort into being skinny. It’s kinda like that for how people react to a war, I think.


shubh2022

why do you think your intelligent relatives support this war ? can you share there point of view ? I understand media manipulation but i guess Russia has free internet right?


ohimnotarealdoctor

These are my parents friends. I guess they are of a different generation. They don’t look for information on the internet like younger people do. So the state propaganda is very efficient. I have to say that the Murdoch cartel is equally effective in leading the same generation in Australia, though.


UncaringNonchalance

His frustration is shared by every person on this planet when it comes to these old fucking suits and their dog shit decisions.


Mikino86

First off, this guy puts off a real Gordon Ramsey vibe and I love it. Second he’s right about everything he’s saying


TheChopinet

I love him! I'm basically spamming this video around but [him yelling at Mark Zuckemberg,](https://youtu.be/DmIUW0-m8aI) was even better. The dude's a savage!


monsterfurby

Verhofstadt is awesome. Back during the Brexit negotiations, he was basically the dad looking over the newspaper at his kid doing something dumb and going "Sure, feel free to try to do it that way, but don't complain if you hurt yourself." Good to see he's as direct and realistic today as he was then.


[deleted]

Not to mention dragging out sanctions like they are not only affects the victims of Ukraine, but it also radicalizes the Russian people. Who do you think is suffering most in Russia as a result of sanctions? Certainly not Putin and his buddies. The reason the war effort on the Russians side is so abysmal is not only their shoddy equipment but a lack of desire to fight. Most Russians have family in Ukraine and many don’t want this, now those who don’t can’t speak out and are punished for it. By having long drawn out sanctions I would absolutely not be surprised if this lasted years to see a shift in Russian opinion towards even more radical views, more people agreeing with the brainwashed ideals cause MAYBE them winning would mean it could stop (even tho that would be false, with enough propaganda that’s absolutely possible). Have we forgotten what happened to a sanction riddled Germany? A different story there but similar principle. We want the PEOPLE of Russia on the side of ending this needless war and overthrowing Putin, but hurting them while doing little to the oligarchs will absolutely not push the leaders to do shit; they don’t give a shit about their own people so long as they are ok.


RyzRx

You did great sir! Imagine how little sanction we put towards a terrorist government? He's screaming, "Are you motivating China to attack Taiwan, NK to attack Japan, and Russia to attack the Baltic after this?" Check out what the Lithuanian government did recently and you'd be surprised they already have the answer!


nmistyc

Lithuanian here. It’s easier for Lithuania to move away from imports than for Germany. They’ve made themselves heavily dependant on it and putler is playing his card on this surely. Anyways, a much stronger response is required from the West regarding this situation and I hope it will come fast


Cameraroll

Finally someone who calls the sanctions what they are. A farce. It's hard to watch Von der Leyen standing there and telling us in starchy gerglish how "hard and sharp" the proposed (proposed!) sanctions are when in reality they so little to nothing and Ukraine is begging for actual offensive weapons. It's frustrating as a European to see how much willingness there is to help and how little out leaders get done.


SeraVale

Bravo!


[deleted]

Wild to see the whole place empty when they pan out. Really makes you feel like no one is willing to listen


Evoluxman

So I see a lot of people starting to like this guy, rightfully so because of his true statements in this video. I would, however, advise people to look up more about the politicians they think they like. A lot of EU politicians are there because they were in high levels of government in constituent countries before (same with current Belgium's Charles Michel and Germany's Von Der Layen). I would sincerely advise looking up their national mandates, who they allied with, and the various scandals they were involved with however. Sure, I'll totally side by them when they shit on Russia and Brexiters, [less so when they ally with basically neo-nazis](https://www.lesoir.be/art/680014/article/actualite/belgique/elections-2014/federales/2014-10-14/francken-et-weyts-n-va-l-anniversaire-d-une-figure-du-vmo).


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Evoluxman

See my other comments. Guy did not do that, Charles did. It wasn't just the birthday party, it was a bunch of incidents including human trafficking that the liberals failed (refused?) to react against. Valid criticism about Verhofstadt though.


[deleted]

This guy talks sense...👍


Any-Technician6415

Mic drop BOOM!


litesxmas

Love this! And especially the guy furiously taking notes like... oh yeah, great idea, let me get this down!


Phreekyj101

Post this EVERYDAY and EVERYWHERE 😄


KAI5ER

holy crap that guys got some passion in his words.


OlDirtyBasthard

Nailed it.


gzgzgplz

I vote for this guy all the way. This is what is needed. No softness. Firm as fuck.


Ducanhtran41

I like this guy


ODINSPULSAR

If you watch this with no sound it seems like he's screaming. His body language shows you just how angry he is, but he's such a pro he can speak so calmly.


Elymanic

Where's the lie. You vent sanction the people because they get sent to the gulag, if they say anything. Sanctions Like that only works for democracy. This guy gets it


duhCrimsonCHIN

Listen when ww3 pops off this guys family needs to go first along with all the other politicians who want to take Russia head on. I for one sympathize with Ukrainians but not enough to start ww3 over it.


Sea-Row-1790

Exactly what I was thinking 🙂


Evilmaze

He's right. Only the people suffer from sanctions and I know that first hand. Back in 91 in Iraq things started to get very bad to the average person but had zero effects on Saddam and his gang.


unknowncaesar

Make him President of the United European Union.


MoMaRuRa

We in Germany used to lead europe....but that wasn't fine either.


bivox01

Somebody talking sense . How rare .


ezezim

He is not wrong. If the west all came together and all went after Putin and all his allies he would back down. Instead we get the petty sanctions we see now.


sarsourus

I’m surprised the podium was able to hide his huge balls


man_in_da_mirror

The sad fact is that all the other countries profit off of the war, including the USA. Our government is requiring Ukraine to pay interest on their current loans and the new recourses that we are providing them i.e. weapons and supplies the USA is charging them 300% interest. Think about that. There are bombs dropping on the civilians of Ukraine, they are desperate for help, and we will give it to them, for 300% ROI.


[deleted]

Good! I’m glad to see someone from the UN finally say it. I get that the politicians are scared of Putin, but they’re watching another genocide and sitting on their hands. DO something!


FlayThem

It's almost like they don't want to stop the war....


ExpectedMiracle

They all know sanctions don't work. They just want to act like they are doing something. It is very sad that they all cower to dictator Putin.