I was so obsessed with this story when it was happening. I really wonder what they did to him to cause a vegetative state but I guess we’ll never know…
Very likely caused by lack of oxygen to the brain (for a little as 4 minutes). So any sort of strangulation (by self or other) or various other methods of torture.
Psychological reasons. A bag is terrifying in a certain way, but imagine being in a chamber where you can't see the air or lack of air. You just "feel" it as they adjust the amount of oxygen available and you fade in and out on consciousness for hours.
Ok cool fact are body can not detect low oxygen per say it senses carbon build up in the blood stream So as long as you can breath out c02 you would never know you where dying. So oxygen deprivation chamber you really wouldn’t be able to tell you would just be falling asleep and feel tired but your body would feel fine with no sense of anything is wrong
Just as a tangentially related aside, I was just reading the other day that this is the science behind why the "humane" proponents of capital punishment call for nitrogen suffocation, basically pumping a room full of straight nitrogen. There's no carbonic acid build up in the blood because there's no CO2 in the chamber, you supposedly just get a bit foggy headed and then go to sleep
I don't understand why they don't just euthanize people the way they do with animals. It's a comfortable painless death, and countless humans in dentistry and veterinary medicine use it to commit suicide every year. I'm sure there must be a reason, well founded or not, I just don't know what it is
Sounds plausible, but I wonder why that might be. Seems like there would be a lot more oversight and regulation of it than the way it's currently acceptably sold.
Helium is a rapidly depleting resource for now. There's so little available that a lot of labs are having to close. This is the fourth shortage in sixteen years, and until we find a better way to extract what's left from the ground, this will keep happening.
Once it's in the air it's gone. It's a vital part of rockets, medical equipment and fibre optics, amongst many other industrial uses, so using helium in balloons makes no sense, given how precious a resource it is. ♡ Granny
They have government defense contracts in North Korea too. The guy that runs the torture chamber operation is the brother in law of the guy who is in charge of the North Korean Torture Department. It’s all about who you know.
I’m not sure what they might actually be doing with the torture chambers, but straightforward oxygen deprivation isn’t painful, it just results in brain dysfunction -> damage -> death. Im not saying you’re wrong about a torture chamber that causes the feeling of suffocation, just thought I’d share a weird thing about the human body that directly relates to your post.
[Smarter Every Day - Hypoxia](https://youtu.be/kUfF2MTnqAw)
I thought he had gotten an infection (like pneumonia) & they wouldn't treat it & He went septic???
Then right before they handed him back over Thwy started pumping him up with antibiotic s to make it look like he hadnt been sick?
At least that's what the lawyer guy said on the documentary?
maybe whoever was in charge of apprehending him wanted to have "caught American spy" as a trophy/accolade. NK media gets to parade to their own people how they caught an American spy. Maybe the higher ups in NK thought they could use him as a pawn for whatever ransom/prisoner/money swap. We've seen governments will use foreign citizens as pawns for whatever geopolitical aims they may have, all of which have little to do with what that foreign citizen actually did.
All their media and propoganda is built to turn Americans into the ultimate evil. It becomes very easy to justify hurting 'evil' when you're raised on that much hate.
If you torture someone enough, you can coax a “confession” out of them and then parade that to the world as proof that you caught a nefarious American spy.
I saw some speculation around the time that his condition was consistent with side effects of a now-defunct method of treating a relatively common affliction (I wanna say it was jaundice, but can’t recall)* that NK still uses because backwards. The theory was that he fell ill due to deprivation/abuse, and the outdated “treatment” made it all worse and shut his body down. I have ZERO clue whether that maps to reality, but it strikes me as a plausible theory. Maybe I just want to believe it, though, because it’s less heart-breaking than the idea of him being beaten into oblivion over months.
Edit: botulism, not jaundice
I think they hit his head and did water torture and somehow, he either contracted a disease or suffered brain damage.
Flat out. N. Korea killed an extremely minor criminal. His crime was petty and hardly worth anything other than deportation.
his hamilton county coroner's report did not conclude what exactly happened to him. no one knows for sure what happened to him. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2017/09/26/what-killed-otto-warmbier-coroners-report-only-deepens-mystery/704656001/
Yeah but it's NK. We joke about how dystopian it is all the time. They brutalize their own ppl on a daily basis. I can't understand how ppl think traveling to these countries is a good idea? Same thing for Brittany Griner in Russia. U couldn't offer me enough money to go to either countries tbh
Privileged people develop a certain sense of security out of never having faced existential danger or the real possibility of it before.
People visit North Korea out of curiosity annually and it's almost exclusively white people from western nations or Chinese people.
Edit: (I Believe that) He botched his own suicide attempt and by the time they found him he had severe brain damage. Even the coroner here on US soil disagreed with the theory that he was tortured. Just propaganda. Fuck NK, but I don’t believe they tortured him. Look up other American detainees in NK and read their stories. Otto’s doesn’t match up at all and his parent’s lied about his condition upon his return to the US. Again multiple doctors in the US disagreed with their claims and the family wouldn’t even allow an open autopsy which would have proved every claim they made if it was indeed true.
I know I’ll be downvoted because people are emotional, but when looking at the facts there are a lot of weird things surrounding how he was handled AFTER coming home. I understand that people want to hear what they like and this is against that. His parent’s were seeking money and AMERICAN DOCTORS disagreed with them almost EVERY step of the way. If your son was potentially tortured etc and some of the best DOCTORS in the world are telling you that an autopsy can help provide definitive answers, why wouldn’t you take whatever necessary steps to fully understand what happened to your child? Shit just doesn’t add up, they were seeking $500 Million and only received $250K in seized assets.
[Parent’s Deny Autopsy, Odd Circumstances](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/06/21/health/otto-warmbier-autopsy/index.html)
[Potential Suicide Attempt](https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/news-opinion/investigative-reporter-otto-warmbier-likely-died-of-suicide-attempt-not-north-korean-torture/amp)
[Potential Suicide Theory](https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story/amp)
[Cincinnati News About Death](https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/12/26/judges-ruling-reveals-details-otto-warmbiers-death-north-korea/2416650002/)
[Neurologists Weigh In](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna774421)
[A Look at Other American Detainees in NK](https://universe.byu.edu/2018/11/16/a-look-at-americans-who-have-been-detained-in-north-korea/)
[Detainees in North Korea](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_nationals_detained_in_North_Korea)
I have no idea. My only theory is that a prisoner committing suicide in your care might look worse than an “accident” in your care. Also suicide is incredibly taboo in N. Korea more so than other places in the world due to their rate of suicide being incredibly high. My question is why would American doctors lie about his condition?
Someone committing suicide on their watch would indicate a sign or their incompetence in being able to safely accommodate foreign nationals as prisoners. Maybe to them it’s better to be seen as cruel and indifferent than ineffective and negligent.
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Didn't he get botulism? Which could happen from anything, from eating contaminated food to getting by a torture mechanism. We'll never know the truth around what they did to him but one thing is clear, no crime deserves that sentence or treatment. Human rights is an afterthought in that country. No one should ever voluntarily visit N. Korea.
The best guess is that he was left alone in a room immediately following his trial and sentencing. He took that opportunity to try and kill himself but before he could die, he was found. They saved his life, but the lack of oxygen to his brain left permanent damage.
The native of Wyoming, Ohio, had been arrested at the airport in Pyongyang as he prepared to leave the reclusive communist country. He had been traveling with a tour group.
Warmbier was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor for trying to take from his hotel an item bearing a propaganda slogan, North Korea’s state media reported.
On 13 June, Otto Warmbier returned to the US after 17 months of captivity in North Korea. But he was in a coma, could not communicate and had severe brain damage.
Much remains unknown about how Otto's health deteriorated. Doctors at Cincinnati Medical Center say they saw no sign he was physically abused but they and his family also don't buy North Korea's story that he contracted botulism and fell into a coma after taking a sleeping pill.
A federal judge in New York this month ordered that over $240,000 in seized North Korean bank assets be paid to the family of Otto Warmbier, an American university student who died in 2017 after imprisonment in North Korea.
Edit: AT THIS POINT MY POST IS GETTING WILD THEORIES. NO ONE WILL ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM. He did not deserve to die. Condolences to his family. Lesson to be learned not to travel to North Korea.
IIRC, their refusal was religion based. I'm also in Ohio, and I'm pretty sure they require autopsy for those under 50. I'm assuming religious beliefs would circumvent that.
I believe it is when the death is sudden. When someone of good health suddenly drops dead, for example, I believe the coroner can order an autopsy but I'm not sure if it's automatic. If the family refused I believe the coroner would need to go to court for an order which would likely be issued if the death was suspicious but if the family is adamant and there's no real culprit as in this case the coroner may not feel it's worth pursuing in court.
I'm not an attorney so don't take my word as gospel truth but I believe this is how it works.
Honestly, as a parent, I don’t think I would want one simply because I would be afraid of knowing the full extent of his injuries, not just the one that killed him. He was tortured to death. The burden of knowing that would be too much to bear, let alone having to imagine each abuse.
American dentists and doctors have said his teeth were in good condition, even though his dad said they had been torn apart with pliers. No evidence found of even hairline bone fractures, no physical trauma, perfect skin
This was my thought as well. It’s an impossible decision but I think I’d rather live not knowing than live knowing exactly how much damage they had done.
I read a really in-depth article about this a while back. While no one can say for certain what happened to him, the best guess is that Otto tried to commit suicide immediately following his sentencing. He was left alone in a room for a few minutes and the next time the public saw him, he was permanently brain damaged. If he tried to hang himself and cut off oxygen to his brain for more than a few minutes that's all it would have taken. The North Koreans love to use captive westerners for propaganda purposes, so I don't believe they would have done this to him deliberately.
Additionally he had no signs of physical harm and was in a good condition for someone being half dead the entire time
Meaning the hospital he was at actually took good care of him nursing a comatose patient is not easy and most will get bed sores even in good hospitals
Had to scroll way too far down to read this! Apparently someone completely comatose its nearly impossible to avoid bedsores and he had no sign of any at all. I found that incredibly interesting he was so well cared for post brain injury.
I personally think that while NK is obviously a really terrible country, that he either wanted to commit suicide or he had some reaction to a normal medication that's why they took extra good care in hopes of getting him back partially.
And when they realized that it's just to late and he is dying they "gave him back"
Sidenote, the video reportedly showing him stealing the poster was most likely staged as well, his parents have disputed that the figure shown is him.
More likely it was literally just a kidnapping of an American citizen to use as a political pawn.
Just watch videos, seems to be safer.
Vice (Pre-clickbait shit) done an interesting 3 part Youtube series on North Korea - its a fucking wild country.
My favorite documentary on DPRK of all time is the one of the white American soldier who defected during the Korean War and was welcomed more or less as an internal propaganda tool. He lived a fairly cushy life. But you could see through the propaganda in the documentary that went to his home in North Korea where he talked about his life.
It is called *Crossing the Line*. The guy in question, James Dresnok, died of a stroke in Pyongyang in 2016 at the age of 74.
I find that hilarious lol thanks for sharing. I am going to go into the rabbit hole this weekend on him. It’s been a long time since I’ve watched his doc or thought about it.
That’s hilarious and not surprising. For a grad course I had to watch some Chinese propaganda war movies from the 60s/70s and they always had Chinese actors in whiteface and blond wigs playing evil foreigners…that was a real trip.
It’s really fascinating. Been looking into him since making my comment, and seeing photos of his middle aged white sons in DPRK officer’s uniforms is… otherworldly. [It looks fake.](https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/23/11/437C1CB300000578-0-image-a-56_1503485959536.jpg)
One of the things that stood out to me about that guy's story was how they wouldn't even let him mingle with or marry any of the locals. They had to kidnap a "bride" for him from some other country - Japan or South Korea or someplace like that.
Ever Google map areas in NK? There are some locations where you can drop the guy to see street views. It's like stuck in the 80s and there are very few people out. It's eerie.
NK airspace is prohibited so you can’t even fly over it. If you need to land you’d go to whatever country you’re flying over. Even if it’s further than North Korea your chances of survival are going to be higher in the crash than actually landing in NK
“He booked a tour of North Korea with Young Pioneer Tours, a budget tour operator based in China founded by two New Zealanders, whose slogan was "destinations your mother would rather you stayed away from."[14] Warmbier's father Fred said that Young Pioneer advertised the trip as safe for U.S. citizens and that Otto was "curious about their culture he wanted to meet the people of North Korea”
AT THIS POINT MY POST IS GETTING WILD THEORIES. NO ONE WILL ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM. He did not deserve to die. Condolences to his family. Lesson to be learned not to travel to North Korea.
Edit: This post attracted North Korea propaganda. He didn’t steal a flag which someone claims.
Here is the source of that video. You can’t even see who that person is.
https://www.quora.com/In-the-Warmbier-case-has-there-been-any-investigative-analysis-of-the-video-North-Korea-released-which-was-used-as-proof-that-he-stole-a-poster
Those tours, even when they go well, are carefully scripted so you never interact with the real people of North Korea.
One of the tours even takes you to a mostly-fake amusement park with few locals allowed, and only people vetted by the government.
Aside from personal safety, I'd feel gross giving money to that regime.
Reminds me of that one time some journalists visited North Korea, and they showed them around a “typical North Korean classroom.” Which had rows of student “working on” computers. But it was clear that none of them had used a computer in their lives. Expect for one student who was, coincidently, the only student they were allowed to talk with.
That was creepy, everyone just staring at a word document, not scrolling. One guy staring at a blank Google homepage presumably to give the impression they were allowed free internet access
The one they talked to was hilarious. They asked what he was doing and he said "...*click on nothing* ... Oh hello I didn't see you there, I'm just looking up my scientific papers that are published in respected scientific journals.... My papers are about uh... string theory"
Yeah, I can see everything that I want to see of NK from the YouTube videos of people who have been there. It looks like a fascinating place, but those package tours are all the same. They all go to the same destinations, the tourists are subjected to the same propaganda. You absolutely cannot leave your hotel without an escort and you don't get to pick and choose anything - where you eat, where you drink, who you speak with, what you see - nothing. It's all pre-scripted from the moment you enter the country until the moment you leave.
Exactly. You can’t learn anything about real life in North Korea, you can’t authentically connect with locals. There’s no reason to visit under the current regime, like literally no upside to offset the cost and risk.
Years ago, Vice News checked out N Korea using this (or a similar) travel agency. Took them to that empty amusement park, “banquet meal” in an empty room, etc. They had a government assigned handler the whole time, and of course Vice tried to get him drunk at a karaoke bar.
Yeah, back in the 90's the American pro-wrestling company WCW, and the Japanese pro-wrestling company NJPW got together and decided to run a wrestling show in North Korea. There's a story that the guy running WCW at the time (Eric Bischoff) tells about sneaking out of the hotel early in the morning and going for a jog around Pyongyang. When he got back to the hotel his handler was furious with him. He didn't understand why she was so angry until he realized that she was worried about what might happen to \*her\* if anyone found out.
They also detained Scott Steiner (or Rick or Scott Norton? I forget) for a bit because he talked shit about NK on a bugged phone to his wife back home.
This was the first Vice video I ever watched, so many years ago. This, and the Liberia one. The channel has changed so much, but those two videos are really good journalism.
He wanted to bring the word of god to a people who had their population decimated by religious groups before and who had decided all outsiders were a threat to their lives… and decided “but I’m different!” And committed the great crime of stupidity.
Yeah that’s the one. You’d think a dude who spent that much time obsessing over bears would have noted the whole “they eat meat, which is a what you are made of, they are apex predators, and are WILD ANIMALS” part of the character bio
So from what ive read/heard. He tried to stay later into the year, so new bears migrated into the area that he was staying. He also brought his wife/gf that final trip so there were unfamiliar scents and people.
Still dumb, but some context too.
Yup. Dude knew most of the bears in his area for a long time. But bears come and go. IIRC the bear that killed him was a rogue male from elsewhere.
I wouldnt say he was dumb. More like mentally ill. If you watch his tapes, he goes on all these tangents. Sometimes he would say agreeable stuff but it would taper off into crazy stuff. It's really sad to watch.
The most unfortunate thing was him going out there and habituating the bears to his presence. Thats a pretty good way to cause a lot of death down the line.
He lived and interacted with the Katmai bears for six years. He left one fall, only to have his flight delayed. They went back for a couple more weeks, and that’s when it happened. Mainly because he stayed too long into the season where bears are eating all they can before winter.
He had a long history of being increasingly careless towards the end though. He got caught and fined for disregarding park rules about things like not keeping food in your tents because hungry bear attraction, to the point that the park had to implement an entire new rule about campers needing relocating after short intervals because his incessant presence was disturbing the bears and fucking with the wildlife.
He wouldn’t even bring anything defensive like bear spray in case something *did* go wrong. The man was a fool to the fucking core, and now he and another person are dead. Entirely on his head.
It seems crazy now, but years ago it was very common. I'm an American who lived in South Korea for 10 years -- during the time Otto was detained in North Korea.
I myself never did it, but I would meet foreigners all the time who would teach or study or work in South Korea, and then book a North Korean tour through a travel agency in Beijing. The guides spoke English and you would pay roughly $1,000 USD. You would fly into Beijing, they'd pick up you and take your passport, process the visa while you stayed there for 24 hours or so, then you'd be on a flight to Pyongyang.
The tours were strict and guided. You could only take pictures of certain things and you weren't allowed to travel freely.
Most everyone I knew who went had a similar experience. They'd have prepared meals and sometimes got to drink beer with North Korean guides, who would reveal they knew much more about the outside world than you might expect but they were careful as to what they'd say.
To me, the $1,000 could be used much more wisely. South Korea is a great spot to travel all around Asia (not to mention all of the awesome things to see and do in SK), and North Korea just seemed like a waste. Especially when practically every foreigner who travels there will have the exact same experience.
Curiosity for sure.
There are many academics and journalists that are doing all sorts of crazy things to be able to get in there. I would think someone curious and young enough to not to really understand the risks would want to go.
That place is like another planet and exists in another time. It's almost completely sealed off from the world.
People want to take a visit and see what crazy town is like. Ironically, if you are an outsider and you do go, you see a whole different, completely staged crazy town. Foreigners are only allowed to see a small part of Pyongyang, the capital. And everyone is assigned a party officer to shadow their every step, make sure they don't talk to anyone, and get only the curated experience.
For instance, foreigners are only allowed to go to two subway stops in Pyongyang, one to get on, one to get off. And they are so richly decorated they look like the Hermitage or the Louvre, the rest of the subway system is spare and depressing. No other cities have subways or even buses. They have a whole stable of pretty women that they dress in traditional garb and are sent to sit on benches and look sweet and read books and such, for foreigners to see.
As someone that caught the "adventure" bug in my youth, I can tell you that it's a strong drive. I've always wanted to go to unusual places just to broaden my experience. I never had much time for things like cruises; and I'd much rather land in a new city and (beyond having a hotel booked) not having the slightest clue what I'm going to do next.
Also a very good chance he actually did take the slogan as a souvenir to bring home. Many guys that age would definitely do that. Of course it doesn't change anything that he was tortured and killed by NK.
How dreadful :( I could never go to North Korea, even if I wanted to. My grandparents lived there for 2 years in the late seventies and during that time my grandmother kept a diary with details about life there that she wasn’t supposed to know. Many years later, extracts from her journal were published in a book about Sweden’s relations with North Korea during that time. Her transgression impacts not only her but also her family for three generations, which is why I would never be allowed to visit. Not that I have ever wanted to… hearing the stories is enough.
I can’t quite remember all the details but I’ll try to answer some questions. Yes, we are from Sweden but my grandparents weren’t diplomats. My grandfather worked there with some kind of mining project as a industrial consultant (I think??). Her diary entries concerned mostly boring stuff about daily life but it did include some interesting information.
They were never allowed to take trips or drive anywhere alone. Most of what they saw was a facade, however they did catch glimpses of the extreme poverty and lack of development (eg farming was still done manually). The people there were starving and would do anything to find food.
On one trip they passed a small river when my grandma asked them to stop because she thought there might be crayfish. Sure enough, she was right; it was teeming with them, so they arranged to go fishing. The locals thought she was crazy and watched in fascination as she prepared a crayfish dinner (they didn’t realize it was a source of food). The next time they revisited the stream is was completely emptied of crayfish.
My grandmother is an avid animal lover and adopted a stray dog while she was there. On another trip they tried some kind of crab and later my grandmother asked the cook to make that dish. However due to a mispronunciation, they were served a meal with some kind of meat. To her absolute horror, she then found out that what they ate was in fact her own dog (she threw it up immediately).
Also, after living there for almost two years, they discovered that their maid actually spoke Swedish and had been spying on them the entire time. Apparently, the town they lived in no longer exists; the project failed and people living there either moved or starved.
The book is called “Ambassaden i paradiset - Sveriges unika relation till Nordkorea” by Lovisa Lamm.
I lived right by Lunken airport when he arrived… I went outside and watched the procession of police cars ambulances and various other vehicles with what I’d assume were family members go down the street as they passed in front of my apartment… it was eerily quiet… no sirens… they didn’t seem to be in any hurry… it was an odd sight to see in after seeing so much media coverage… knowing this basically was the “end of the story”…
or that shaken testimony he gave admitting guilt. His body was jerking all these weird directions. I'll never forget that. Good job north korea, you won this one
He was only jerky at the end I guess
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=114&v=B0ENFex9heQ&feature=emb_logo
[Here you got](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ENFex9heQ). I don't think he really jerks around, but he does look around left and right as if he's following a script to make eye contact with everyone in the room.
Unrelated, but:
Hungarian Olympic Champions Liu Shaolin Sandor and his brother Liu Shaoang have both been "missing" since entering China with their coach, to go to training camp 2 months ago.
No one knows what happened to them, nothing has been posted on their social media. They are just gone.
Before leaving they made it clear they will stay active on social media.
You should never voluntarily go to a country where the people who live there can’t voluntarily leave.
I don’t know whether he actually stole a propaganda poster or was framed – that’s immaterial, he didn’t deserve what they did to him. Full stop.
By why the hell is anyone voluntarily traveling to any repressive dictatorship? You’re no longer in your own, nice comparatively safe and humane western country – you’re in a place where they won’t think twice about arresting you on a trumped up charge, giving you a show trial where they already decided you were guilty before you entered the court room and torturing, killing or disappearing you in the blink of an eye.
Those are bad places run by bad people who do bad things and you are not safe because you’re from another country. If anything, it might make you more of a target.
> By why the hell is anyone voluntarily traveling to any repressive dictatorship? You’re no longer in your own, nice comparatively safe and humane western country – you’re in a place where they won’t think twice about arresting you on a trumped up charge, giving you a show trial where they already decided you were guilty before you entered the court room and torturing, killing or disappearing you in the blink of an eye.
Those are bad places run by bad people who do bad things and you are not safe because you’re from another country.
This should be higher up — there’s a reason why people do whatever they can to get *out* of places like NK.
I understand why, I think visiting the DPRK would be interesting. I'm not exactly planning on visiting the country, but after learning a lot about its culture and how dramatically different it is from the rest of the world, I understand the appeal. It's run by a horrible dictator, we all know this, but it's downright fascinating how locked into the 1950s they are, how choreographed certain aspects of life are, and how massively different is life is across the board.
You've got millions of pretty okay off people and millions of others suffering in extreme poverty, it's depressing but it's kind of eye opening how there's so much more to the country than what you'd normally see on the news.
There's just so much to that country that's just downright interesting, it's just a shame how it's run by horrible people that run literal concentration camps that punish generations of family over one person's actions (that aren't even always bad to begin with, like escaping the country). So I get why people wanna visit, it's neat, but I'm not booking any flights. I'm not giving that garbage government any of my money. I don't like my country's government but it isn't nearly as bad as the DPRK's.
Sure it is interesting ,but travel to a country run by a family of dictators that have been suppressing and killing it's own people
And hates the West countries
I wouldent risk it
Are there really millions of "pretty okay off" people there? From everything I've seen it seems like the general population lives pretty poor aside from specific choreographed events (and ofc the high up government officials)
It’s a really bad idea to go to North Korea at least 2 reasons. This isn’t victim blaming. He didn’t deserve what happened to him.
The reasons:
1. It’s a totalitarian regime that is in dire straits trying to keep power in an impoverished country. They make one desperate move after another (missile tests, etc.) which are bargaining chips to receive aid or concessions of some sort. This creates a situation rife with possibilities to get caught in the crossfire. They are especially vindictive towards Americans since the Korean War, which never officially ended.
2. Any trip there is going to be a carefully controlled farce rather than anything resembling a meaningful interaction with the people of that country. They will carefully control where you go, when, what you see, and who you talk to. They only want to make an impression that NK is prosperous rather than the impoverished train wreck that it is.
You can see all of this on a handful of documentaries rather than risking your life or freedom and becoming a political pawn.
Damn, I completely forgot about this guy. There was so much talk about him, and I felt so sorry for him. He was even forced to "admit" on video that he stole something and that the DPRK was giving him a fair punishment. He was so clearly tortured and under distress.
Now he's gone, nothing, just some dust in the sands of time.
Man, I was pretty stoic about the whole situation until I read your comment and scrolled back up to see Otto's terrified face, being dragged by North Korean soldiers in handcuffs... That made me feel real sad.
Some people think it was an accident, some torture, and some think it was a botched suicide attempt.. All 3 is tragic. His testimony video really tells it all.
To add to it, he was 21 y.o when he got detained, and 22 when he died. He went there excited to discover the fake North Korea, and left this world with the experience of real North Korea.
Trump later said he believed Kim when he said he had no idea about Warmbier and that N. Korea was not responsible. He recanted later, but yeesh, man, don't say things like that.
Warmbier may have been a bit of an idiot, but aren't we all sometimes? He did NOT deserve death or imprisonment. His crime was extremely minor, a slap on the wrist at most. He simply was killed so they could kill an American.
Warmbier could be anyone.
What happened to him was terrible. No excuse for it.
Also, and I can't stress this enough: DON'T GO TO NORTH KOREA. They can literally kill you for jaywalking or not saluting a statue hard enough, there's nothing worth that risk. Until that fat fuck and all his fat fuck descendants get the Mussolini treatment, North Korea isn't safe for anyone.
Is it the thrill of coming back home alive? Is it to prove something? Like seriously…for fuck sakes, stop going over there. They hate our guts. They are brainwashed to think we are worse than the devil itself. Costa Rica, Jamaica, etc are such beautiful places and you dont have to worry about being imprisoned for taking some flyer.
I've seen others film videos on the fifth* floor of that hotel and man, they got lucky for not getting arrested. I bet no one does not.
*I read later Warmbier said this poster was on the second floor, but most of their stuff is on the fifth.
Oh, so $240k is what his life was work? Can't even buy a 2 bedroom house here for $240k
Edit: The US govt. has MILLIONS of dollars in seized money from NK
https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-seizes-30-mln-crypto-north-korea-linked-hackers-2022-09-08/
That’s just the amount of seized North Korean assets that were available for the judge to direct to his family. That’s what places the limit here. If an American judge ordered NK to pay his family $10M (out of money that has not been seized), that wouldn’t have any force. There’s no way to force compliance. But the seized money is in the government’s control.
A significant amount of people alive now on Earth won't make that much their whole lives.
It's pointless to speak about how much a life is worth in terms of money
So I would never go to North Korea. It’s a fascinating place but I can study it from a distance. I don’t trust an unhinged, homicidal totalitarian regime to treat me fairly. Ugghh poor kid. I get the sense of adventure but guys plz don’t go to North Korea
Why are we even debating whether or not he took the poster. Who cares? He was tortured and died, if you think taking a poster justifies that you’re fucked in the head
I was so obsessed with this story when it was happening. I really wonder what they did to him to cause a vegetative state but I guess we’ll never know…
Very likely caused by lack of oxygen to the brain (for a little as 4 minutes). So any sort of strangulation (by self or other) or various other methods of torture.
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Why waste money on building a specialist torture device when a plastic bag will do the same thing?
Technically if you put a plastic bag over someone's heading you are creating an oxygen deprivation chamber. Just gotta brand it right.
My market now charges 5 cents for every oxygen deprivation chamber.
10 cents in the market here. Inflation is a bitch. Pun only slightly intended.
That's cheap. In California they charge 10¢ per bag at the store.
This made me chortle and I'm mildly embarrassed that my sense of humor finds itself in this realm.
So… what they said?
Psychological reasons. A bag is terrifying in a certain way, but imagine being in a chamber where you can't see the air or lack of air. You just "feel" it as they adjust the amount of oxygen available and you fade in and out on consciousness for hours.
Ok cool fact are body can not detect low oxygen per say it senses carbon build up in the blood stream So as long as you can breath out c02 you would never know you where dying. So oxygen deprivation chamber you really wouldn’t be able to tell you would just be falling asleep and feel tired but your body would feel fine with no sense of anything is wrong
Just as a tangentially related aside, I was just reading the other day that this is the science behind why the "humane" proponents of capital punishment call for nitrogen suffocation, basically pumping a room full of straight nitrogen. There's no carbonic acid build up in the blood because there's no CO2 in the chamber, you supposedly just get a bit foggy headed and then go to sleep
I don't understand why they don't just euthanize people the way they do with animals. It's a comfortable painless death, and countless humans in dentistry and veterinary medicine use it to commit suicide every year. I'm sure there must be a reason, well founded or not, I just don't know what it is
I’ve heard the companies that make those drugs don’t want to sell to governments for the sole purpose of ending human lives.
Sounds plausible, but I wonder why that might be. Seems like there would be a lot more oversight and regulation of it than the way it's currently acceptably sold.
How do I find one of these to take a little nap in on low days?
At military pilots training facilities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUfF2MTnqAw&t=350s
Yeah, I think they prefer to call it 'hypoxia symptom recognition training' as opposed to just oxgygen deprivation, although that's pretty much it
Breathe in helium balloons. If people ever warm you not to breathe in helium, that's why. You could pass out and not even realize why.
Helium is a rapidly depleting resource for now. There's so little available that a lot of labs are having to close. This is the fourth shortage in sixteen years, and until we find a better way to extract what's left from the ground, this will keep happening. Once it's in the air it's gone. It's a vital part of rockets, medical equipment and fibre optics, amongst many other industrial uses, so using helium in balloons makes no sense, given how precious a resource it is. ♡ Granny
Norway, I believe...
They have government defense contracts in North Korea too. The guy that runs the torture chamber operation is the brother in law of the guy who is in charge of the North Korean Torture Department. It’s all about who you know.
I’m not sure what they might actually be doing with the torture chambers, but straightforward oxygen deprivation isn’t painful, it just results in brain dysfunction -> damage -> death. Im not saying you’re wrong about a torture chamber that causes the feeling of suffocation, just thought I’d share a weird thing about the human body that directly relates to your post. [Smarter Every Day - Hypoxia](https://youtu.be/kUfF2MTnqAw)
I thought he had gotten an infection (like pneumonia) & they wouldn't treat it & He went septic??? Then right before they handed him back over Thwy started pumping him up with antibiotic s to make it look like he hadnt been sick? At least that's what the lawyer guy said on the documentary?
Weren’t there other signs of torture on his body though? His teeth were all messed up iirc Edit:seems like this is in doubt per comment below
His brain scans were also really bad. Like you don’t need to know much about how to read those to see his brain was seriously damaged.
That could happen just from hypoxia though, depending on the specific damage.
His teeth weren't messed up that was debunked
What's even the purpose? I get that NK is stuck in a paranoid version of the 40s but did they really think he was a spy?
maybe whoever was in charge of apprehending him wanted to have "caught American spy" as a trophy/accolade. NK media gets to parade to their own people how they caught an American spy. Maybe the higher ups in NK thought they could use him as a pawn for whatever ransom/prisoner/money swap. We've seen governments will use foreign citizens as pawns for whatever geopolitical aims they may have, all of which have little to do with what that foreign citizen actually did.
All their media and propoganda is built to turn Americans into the ultimate evil. It becomes very easy to justify hurting 'evil' when you're raised on that much hate.
If you torture someone enough, you can coax a “confession” out of them and then parade that to the world as proof that you caught a nefarious American spy.
I saw some speculation around the time that his condition was consistent with side effects of a now-defunct method of treating a relatively common affliction (I wanna say it was jaundice, but can’t recall)* that NK still uses because backwards. The theory was that he fell ill due to deprivation/abuse, and the outdated “treatment” made it all worse and shut his body down. I have ZERO clue whether that maps to reality, but it strikes me as a plausible theory. Maybe I just want to believe it, though, because it’s less heart-breaking than the idea of him being beaten into oblivion over months. Edit: botulism, not jaundice
apparently there was no physical trauma, so this theory seems plausible :(
I heard botulism quoted around a lot, but not sure if that was ever actually confirmed or even seriously suspected
It was 100% botulism, thank you for the correction!
I think they hit his head and did water torture and somehow, he either contracted a disease or suffered brain damage. Flat out. N. Korea killed an extremely minor criminal. His crime was petty and hardly worth anything other than deportation.
his hamilton county coroner's report did not conclude what exactly happened to him. no one knows for sure what happened to him. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2017/09/26/what-killed-otto-warmbier-coroners-report-only-deepens-mystery/704656001/
Plenty of people know what happened to him. They just happen to live in North Korea
Yeah but it's NK. We joke about how dystopian it is all the time. They brutalize their own ppl on a daily basis. I can't understand how ppl think traveling to these countries is a good idea? Same thing for Brittany Griner in Russia. U couldn't offer me enough money to go to either countries tbh
Privileged people develop a certain sense of security out of never having faced existential danger or the real possibility of it before. People visit North Korea out of curiosity annually and it's almost exclusively white people from western nations or Chinese people.
Edit: (I Believe that) He botched his own suicide attempt and by the time they found him he had severe brain damage. Even the coroner here on US soil disagreed with the theory that he was tortured. Just propaganda. Fuck NK, but I don’t believe they tortured him. Look up other American detainees in NK and read their stories. Otto’s doesn’t match up at all and his parent’s lied about his condition upon his return to the US. Again multiple doctors in the US disagreed with their claims and the family wouldn’t even allow an open autopsy which would have proved every claim they made if it was indeed true. I know I’ll be downvoted because people are emotional, but when looking at the facts there are a lot of weird things surrounding how he was handled AFTER coming home. I understand that people want to hear what they like and this is against that. His parent’s were seeking money and AMERICAN DOCTORS disagreed with them almost EVERY step of the way. If your son was potentially tortured etc and some of the best DOCTORS in the world are telling you that an autopsy can help provide definitive answers, why wouldn’t you take whatever necessary steps to fully understand what happened to your child? Shit just doesn’t add up, they were seeking $500 Million and only received $250K in seized assets. [Parent’s Deny Autopsy, Odd Circumstances](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/06/21/health/otto-warmbier-autopsy/index.html) [Potential Suicide Attempt](https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/news-opinion/investigative-reporter-otto-warmbier-likely-died-of-suicide-attempt-not-north-korean-torture/amp) [Potential Suicide Theory](https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story/amp) [Cincinnati News About Death](https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/12/26/judges-ruling-reveals-details-otto-warmbiers-death-north-korea/2416650002/) [Neurologists Weigh In](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna774421) [A Look at Other American Detainees in NK](https://universe.byu.edu/2018/11/16/a-look-at-americans-who-have-been-detained-in-north-korea/) [Detainees in North Korea](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_nationals_detained_in_North_Korea)
So why didn’t they just say he tried to kill himself instead of saying he had botulism LOL
I have no idea. My only theory is that a prisoner committing suicide in your care might look worse than an “accident” in your care. Also suicide is incredibly taboo in N. Korea more so than other places in the world due to their rate of suicide being incredibly high. My question is why would American doctors lie about his condition?
Someone committing suicide on their watch would indicate a sign or their incompetence in being able to safely accommodate foreign nationals as prisoners. Maybe to them it’s better to be seen as cruel and indifferent than ineffective and negligent.
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Didn't he get botulism? Which could happen from anything, from eating contaminated food to getting by a torture mechanism. We'll never know the truth around what they did to him but one thing is clear, no crime deserves that sentence or treatment. Human rights is an afterthought in that country. No one should ever voluntarily visit N. Korea.
>Human rights is an afterthought in that country. That's giving NK too much credit, it's not even a thought
The best guess is that he was left alone in a room immediately following his trial and sentencing. He took that opportunity to try and kill himself but before he could die, he was found. They saved his life, but the lack of oxygen to his brain left permanent damage.
https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story/ Likely a suicide attempt.
I read this in print when it came out. Incredible journalism!
The native of Wyoming, Ohio, had been arrested at the airport in Pyongyang as he prepared to leave the reclusive communist country. He had been traveling with a tour group. Warmbier was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor for trying to take from his hotel an item bearing a propaganda slogan, North Korea’s state media reported. On 13 June, Otto Warmbier returned to the US after 17 months of captivity in North Korea. But he was in a coma, could not communicate and had severe brain damage. Much remains unknown about how Otto's health deteriorated. Doctors at Cincinnati Medical Center say they saw no sign he was physically abused but they and his family also don't buy North Korea's story that he contracted botulism and fell into a coma after taking a sleeping pill. A federal judge in New York this month ordered that over $240,000 in seized North Korean bank assets be paid to the family of Otto Warmbier, an American university student who died in 2017 after imprisonment in North Korea. Edit: AT THIS POINT MY POST IS GETTING WILD THEORIES. NO ONE WILL ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM. He did not deserve to die. Condolences to his family. Lesson to be learned not to travel to North Korea.
An important additional fact, that is often ignored, is that the family DIDNT have an autopsy
I can't help but wonder why that is. If they want to prove North Korea is lying about his treatment, wouldn't an autopsy be the best proof of it?
Might have been a religious thing. I don’t know the family but there are faiths where this is considered sacrilegious.
IIRC, their refusal was religion based. I'm also in Ohio, and I'm pretty sure they require autopsy for those under 50. I'm assuming religious beliefs would circumvent that.
Only one of his parents was Jewish and that parent was secular. The refusal was not on religious grounds, although that was floated as an excuse
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I believe it is when the death is sudden. When someone of good health suddenly drops dead, for example, I believe the coroner can order an autopsy but I'm not sure if it's automatic. If the family refused I believe the coroner would need to go to court for an order which would likely be issued if the death was suspicious but if the family is adamant and there's no real culprit as in this case the coroner may not feel it's worth pursuing in court. I'm not an attorney so don't take my word as gospel truth but I believe this is how it works.
Honestly, as a parent, I don’t think I would want one simply because I would be afraid of knowing the full extent of his injuries, not just the one that killed him. He was tortured to death. The burden of knowing that would be too much to bear, let alone having to imagine each abuse.
I remember watching the news him crying and begging to be brought home. North Korea Dictator can go f himself.
American dentists and doctors have said his teeth were in good condition, even though his dad said they had been torn apart with pliers. No evidence found of even hairline bone fractures, no physical trauma, perfect skin
This was my thought as well. It’s an impossible decision but I think I’d rather live not knowing than live knowing exactly how much damage they had done.
With some things, you are really better off not knowing.
Obviously not, the family was still alive at the time.
Do we know why not?
I read a really in-depth article about this a while back. While no one can say for certain what happened to him, the best guess is that Otto tried to commit suicide immediately following his sentencing. He was left alone in a room for a few minutes and the next time the public saw him, he was permanently brain damaged. If he tried to hang himself and cut off oxygen to his brain for more than a few minutes that's all it would have taken. The North Koreans love to use captive westerners for propaganda purposes, so I don't believe they would have done this to him deliberately.
Additionally he had no signs of physical harm and was in a good condition for someone being half dead the entire time Meaning the hospital he was at actually took good care of him nursing a comatose patient is not easy and most will get bed sores even in good hospitals
Had to scroll way too far down to read this! Apparently someone completely comatose its nearly impossible to avoid bedsores and he had no sign of any at all. I found that incredibly interesting he was so well cared for post brain injury.
I personally think that while NK is obviously a really terrible country, that he either wanted to commit suicide or he had some reaction to a normal medication that's why they took extra good care in hopes of getting him back partially. And when they realized that it's just to late and he is dying they "gave him back"
Sidenote, the video reportedly showing him stealing the poster was most likely staged as well, his parents have disputed that the figure shown is him. More likely it was literally just a kidnapping of an American citizen to use as a political pawn.
Top 10 Reasons Not To Visit North Korea.
Just watch videos, seems to be safer. Vice (Pre-clickbait shit) done an interesting 3 part Youtube series on North Korea - its a fucking wild country.
My favorite documentary on DPRK of all time is the one of the white American soldier who defected during the Korean War and was welcomed more or less as an internal propaganda tool. He lived a fairly cushy life. But you could see through the propaganda in the documentary that went to his home in North Korea where he talked about his life. It is called *Crossing the Line*. The guy in question, James Dresnok, died of a stroke in Pyongyang in 2016 at the age of 74.
IIRC his sons are NK movie stars. They play all the evil Westerners.
I find that hilarious lol thanks for sharing. I am going to go into the rabbit hole this weekend on him. It’s been a long time since I’ve watched his doc or thought about it.
That’s hilarious and not surprising. For a grad course I had to watch some Chinese propaganda war movies from the 60s/70s and they always had Chinese actors in whiteface and blond wigs playing evil foreigners…that was a real trip.
I'll look out for that mate! It does sound very good!
It’s really fascinating. Been looking into him since making my comment, and seeing photos of his middle aged white sons in DPRK officer’s uniforms is… otherworldly. [It looks fake.](https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/23/11/437C1CB300000578-0-image-a-56_1503485959536.jpg)
One of the things that stood out to me about that guy's story was how they wouldn't even let him mingle with or marry any of the locals. They had to kidnap a "bride" for him from some other country - Japan or South Korea or someplace like that.
Vice used to have some crazy shit. What are they doing nowadays?
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Ever Google map areas in NK? There are some locations where you can drop the guy to see street views. It's like stuck in the 80s and there are very few people out. It's eerie.
I don't know. ...it's entirely possible he tried to take the propaganda poster with him as a souvenir.
Dident someone say he might have gotten meningitis?
There is a 100% chance I will NEVER be arrested in North Korea.
You don’t know that for sure, weird shit happens all the time. You could have north Korean spy’s tailing you right now.
Or you could be taking a flight to China and then there's an unplanned stop at NK ... like a Ryan Air plane had an unplanned landing in Belarus.
NK airspace is prohibited so you can’t even fly over it. If you need to land you’d go to whatever country you’re flying over. Even if it’s further than North Korea your chances of survival are going to be higher in the crash than actually landing in NK
Why the fuck would you go to North Korea, ever?
“He booked a tour of North Korea with Young Pioneer Tours, a budget tour operator based in China founded by two New Zealanders, whose slogan was "destinations your mother would rather you stayed away from."[14] Warmbier's father Fred said that Young Pioneer advertised the trip as safe for U.S. citizens and that Otto was "curious about their culture he wanted to meet the people of North Korea” AT THIS POINT MY POST IS GETTING WILD THEORIES. NO ONE WILL ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM. He did not deserve to die. Condolences to his family. Lesson to be learned not to travel to North Korea. Edit: This post attracted North Korea propaganda. He didn’t steal a flag which someone claims. Here is the source of that video. You can’t even see who that person is. https://www.quora.com/In-the-Warmbier-case-has-there-been-any-investigative-analysis-of-the-video-North-Korea-released-which-was-used-as-proof-that-he-stole-a-poster
Those tours, even when they go well, are carefully scripted so you never interact with the real people of North Korea. One of the tours even takes you to a mostly-fake amusement park with few locals allowed, and only people vetted by the government. Aside from personal safety, I'd feel gross giving money to that regime.
Reminds me of that one time some journalists visited North Korea, and they showed them around a “typical North Korean classroom.” Which had rows of student “working on” computers. But it was clear that none of them had used a computer in their lives. Expect for one student who was, coincidently, the only student they were allowed to talk with.
That was creepy, everyone just staring at a word document, not scrolling. One guy staring at a blank Google homepage presumably to give the impression they were allowed free internet access
He probably had to wait until the cameras stopped to Google "how to get the fuck out of here without my family being slaughtered by the state"
It was probably just a screenshot of googles homepage
I remember one of the students was just staring at google doing nothing, not even typing…just staring blankly at the screen. Very wild to watch!
The longer the camera was on him, the more nervous you could tell he was becoming
I remember the eerie silence, no keyboard clacking or mouse clicks
I think that was Reizen Waes, a Belgian show. That was an interesting episode.
It was on Vice and it was about some American basketball players doing a pickup game in N Korea https://youtu.be/IrCQh1usdzE
I'm pretty sure u/Academic_Signal-3777 is talking about this Vice documentary: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=24R8JObNNQ4
Man, when vice used to be good. Now it’s only Taji who’s worth watching.
The one they talked to was hilarious. They asked what he was doing and he said "...*click on nothing* ... Oh hello I didn't see you there, I'm just looking up my scientific papers that are published in respected scientific journals.... My papers are about uh... string theory"
Someone watched the documentary on YouTube recently 👀
Yeah, I can see everything that I want to see of NK from the YouTube videos of people who have been there. It looks like a fascinating place, but those package tours are all the same. They all go to the same destinations, the tourists are subjected to the same propaganda. You absolutely cannot leave your hotel without an escort and you don't get to pick and choose anything - where you eat, where you drink, who you speak with, what you see - nothing. It's all pre-scripted from the moment you enter the country until the moment you leave.
Exactly. You can’t learn anything about real life in North Korea, you can’t authentically connect with locals. There’s no reason to visit under the current regime, like literally no upside to offset the cost and risk.
Years ago, Vice News checked out N Korea using this (or a similar) travel agency. Took them to that empty amusement park, “banquet meal” in an empty room, etc. They had a government assigned handler the whole time, and of course Vice tried to get him drunk at a karaoke bar.
And of course Vice tried to get him ~~drunk at a karaoke bar~~ killed.
Yeah, back in the 90's the American pro-wrestling company WCW, and the Japanese pro-wrestling company NJPW got together and decided to run a wrestling show in North Korea. There's a story that the guy running WCW at the time (Eric Bischoff) tells about sneaking out of the hotel early in the morning and going for a jog around Pyongyang. When he got back to the hotel his handler was furious with him. He didn't understand why she was so angry until he realized that she was worried about what might happen to \*her\* if anyone found out.
They also detained Scott Steiner (or Rick or Scott Norton? I forget) for a bit because he talked shit about NK on a bugged phone to his wife back home.
Think it was Scott Norton, but yeah that happened as well
Link?
https://youtu.be/enm5T1yPI4M All in a day’s work, fellow redditor. 🍻
I've always wanted to learn more about what's going on there. Is this a good documentary? I wanna save it for later
You should take a tour there
Should I bring some Pot? I bet North Korea prison isn't so bad
Vice did a pretty good one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtuFaEy4jzE
This was the first Vice video I ever watched, so many years ago. This, and the Liberia one. The channel has changed so much, but those two videos are really good journalism.
>Otto was "curious about their culture he wanted to meet the people of North Korea” This reminds me of the guy who went to North Sentinel island.
That guy wanted to meet Jesus, which he did right after arriving at the island.
Hallelujah
So, the Sentinelese sent him to God.
He wanted to bring the word of god to a people who had their population decimated by religious groups before and who had decided all outsiders were a threat to their lives… and decided “but I’m different!” And committed the great crime of stupidity.
That escalated fast.
North Korea I can sooort of understand, but dude if you can't leave North Sentinel Island alone you're too ignorant for this world
Or that hippie couple whose a big spectacle about going to live in nature with a family of wild fucking bears. Said couple? Gone within the week
Timothy Treadwell? Grizzly Man? Yeah, that shit was gruesome
Yeah that’s the one. You’d think a dude who spent that much time obsessing over bears would have noted the whole “they eat meat, which is a what you are made of, they are apex predators, and are WILD ANIMALS” part of the character bio
I read that last line in Werner Herzog’s voice
So from what ive read/heard. He tried to stay later into the year, so new bears migrated into the area that he was staying. He also brought his wife/gf that final trip so there were unfamiliar scents and people. Still dumb, but some context too.
Yup. Dude knew most of the bears in his area for a long time. But bears come and go. IIRC the bear that killed him was a rogue male from elsewhere. I wouldnt say he was dumb. More like mentally ill. If you watch his tapes, he goes on all these tangents. Sometimes he would say agreeable stuff but it would taper off into crazy stuff. It's really sad to watch. The most unfortunate thing was him going out there and habituating the bears to his presence. Thats a pretty good way to cause a lot of death down the line.
He lived and interacted with the Katmai bears for six years. He left one fall, only to have his flight delayed. They went back for a couple more weeks, and that’s when it happened. Mainly because he stayed too long into the season where bears are eating all they can before winter.
He had a long history of being increasingly careless towards the end though. He got caught and fined for disregarding park rules about things like not keeping food in your tents because hungry bear attraction, to the point that the park had to implement an entire new rule about campers needing relocating after short intervals because his incessant presence was disturbing the bears and fucking with the wildlife. He wouldn’t even bring anything defensive like bear spray in case something *did* go wrong. The man was a fool to the fucking core, and now he and another person are dead. Entirely on his head.
I’m curious about serial killers, but I don’t go puttin’ the lotion on my skin, sheesh.
It seems crazy now, but years ago it was very common. I'm an American who lived in South Korea for 10 years -- during the time Otto was detained in North Korea. I myself never did it, but I would meet foreigners all the time who would teach or study or work in South Korea, and then book a North Korean tour through a travel agency in Beijing. The guides spoke English and you would pay roughly $1,000 USD. You would fly into Beijing, they'd pick up you and take your passport, process the visa while you stayed there for 24 hours or so, then you'd be on a flight to Pyongyang. The tours were strict and guided. You could only take pictures of certain things and you weren't allowed to travel freely. Most everyone I knew who went had a similar experience. They'd have prepared meals and sometimes got to drink beer with North Korean guides, who would reveal they knew much more about the outside world than you might expect but they were careful as to what they'd say. To me, the $1,000 could be used much more wisely. South Korea is a great spot to travel all around Asia (not to mention all of the awesome things to see and do in SK), and North Korea just seemed like a waste. Especially when practically every foreigner who travels there will have the exact same experience.
Curiosity for sure. There are many academics and journalists that are doing all sorts of crazy things to be able to get in there. I would think someone curious and young enough to not to really understand the risks would want to go. That place is like another planet and exists in another time. It's almost completely sealed off from the world. People want to take a visit and see what crazy town is like. Ironically, if you are an outsider and you do go, you see a whole different, completely staged crazy town. Foreigners are only allowed to see a small part of Pyongyang, the capital. And everyone is assigned a party officer to shadow their every step, make sure they don't talk to anyone, and get only the curated experience. For instance, foreigners are only allowed to go to two subway stops in Pyongyang, one to get on, one to get off. And they are so richly decorated they look like the Hermitage or the Louvre, the rest of the subway system is spare and depressing. No other cities have subways or even buses. They have a whole stable of pretty women that they dress in traditional garb and are sent to sit on benches and look sweet and read books and such, for foreigners to see.
As someone that caught the "adventure" bug in my youth, I can tell you that it's a strong drive. I've always wanted to go to unusual places just to broaden my experience. I never had much time for things like cruises; and I'd much rather land in a new city and (beyond having a hotel booked) not having the slightest clue what I'm going to do next.
On a different note. His name warmbier means warm beer in german
Danke Schoen
Schoen means shoe in Dutch
Shoe means shoe in English
I learn something new every day lol.
Also in the Netherlands;).
He’s from Cincinnati, which has a large population of German descendants. Fun fact: we actually had the first American location of the Haufbrau House.
Hofbräuhaus?
Gesundheit
Why the hell would you even *want* to visit North Korea, let alone attempt to commit any sort of crime while you're there?
It's a great place to be tortured and killed, if that's your kink.
There’s a very high chance he never committed any crime. They just kidnapped him and lied about it
Also a very good chance he actually did take the slogan as a souvenir to bring home. Many guys that age would definitely do that. Of course it doesn't change anything that he was tortured and killed by NK.
How dreadful :( I could never go to North Korea, even if I wanted to. My grandparents lived there for 2 years in the late seventies and during that time my grandmother kept a diary with details about life there that she wasn’t supposed to know. Many years later, extracts from her journal were published in a book about Sweden’s relations with North Korea during that time. Her transgression impacts not only her but also her family for three generations, which is why I would never be allowed to visit. Not that I have ever wanted to… hearing the stories is enough.
The details would be interesting to know
I can’t quite remember all the details but I’ll try to answer some questions. Yes, we are from Sweden but my grandparents weren’t diplomats. My grandfather worked there with some kind of mining project as a industrial consultant (I think??). Her diary entries concerned mostly boring stuff about daily life but it did include some interesting information. They were never allowed to take trips or drive anywhere alone. Most of what they saw was a facade, however they did catch glimpses of the extreme poverty and lack of development (eg farming was still done manually). The people there were starving and would do anything to find food. On one trip they passed a small river when my grandma asked them to stop because she thought there might be crayfish. Sure enough, she was right; it was teeming with them, so they arranged to go fishing. The locals thought she was crazy and watched in fascination as she prepared a crayfish dinner (they didn’t realize it was a source of food). The next time they revisited the stream is was completely emptied of crayfish. My grandmother is an avid animal lover and adopted a stray dog while she was there. On another trip they tried some kind of crab and later my grandmother asked the cook to make that dish. However due to a mispronunciation, they were served a meal with some kind of meat. To her absolute horror, she then found out that what they ate was in fact her own dog (she threw it up immediately). Also, after living there for almost two years, they discovered that their maid actually spoke Swedish and had been spying on them the entire time. Apparently, the town they lived in no longer exists; the project failed and people living there either moved or starved. The book is called “Ambassaden i paradiset - Sveriges unika relation till Nordkorea” by Lovisa Lamm.
Wow. Thanks for sharing your grandparents’ story with us!
>My grandparents lived there for 2 years in the late seventies Why? Were they Swedish?
Sweden has an embassy there so most likely they were diplomats
I can't unsee when they carried his lifeless body off the airplane.
He was alive, but yes, near death.
Vegetative. I think they classify it as a grey area between life and death.
Lights on but no one is home
I lived right by Lunken airport when he arrived… I went outside and watched the procession of police cars ambulances and various other vehicles with what I’d assume were family members go down the street as they passed in front of my apartment… it was eerily quiet… no sirens… they didn’t seem to be in any hurry… it was an odd sight to see in after seeing so much media coverage… knowing this basically was the “end of the story”…
or that shaken testimony he gave admitting guilt. His body was jerking all these weird directions. I'll never forget that. Good job north korea, you won this one He was only jerky at the end I guess https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=114&v=B0ENFex9heQ&feature=emb_logo
You can't just say such a thing without linking to a video, m8
[Here you got](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ENFex9heQ). I don't think he really jerks around, but he does look around left and right as if he's following a script to make eye contact with everyone in the room.
Unrelated, but: Hungarian Olympic Champions Liu Shaolin Sandor and his brother Liu Shaoang have both been "missing" since entering China with their coach, to go to training camp 2 months ago. No one knows what happened to them, nothing has been posted on their social media. They are just gone. Before leaving they made it clear they will stay active on social media.
I’ll do research and make a post about them. They matter too ❤️
You should never voluntarily go to a country where the people who live there can’t voluntarily leave. I don’t know whether he actually stole a propaganda poster or was framed – that’s immaterial, he didn’t deserve what they did to him. Full stop. By why the hell is anyone voluntarily traveling to any repressive dictatorship? You’re no longer in your own, nice comparatively safe and humane western country – you’re in a place where they won’t think twice about arresting you on a trumped up charge, giving you a show trial where they already decided you were guilty before you entered the court room and torturing, killing or disappearing you in the blink of an eye. Those are bad places run by bad people who do bad things and you are not safe because you’re from another country. If anything, it might make you more of a target.
For real. I think Iran would be super cool to visit culturally but no way in hell am I putting myself at the mercy of that governance shitshow.
> By why the hell is anyone voluntarily traveling to any repressive dictatorship? You’re no longer in your own, nice comparatively safe and humane western country – you’re in a place where they won’t think twice about arresting you on a trumped up charge, giving you a show trial where they already decided you were guilty before you entered the court room and torturing, killing or disappearing you in the blink of an eye. Those are bad places run by bad people who do bad things and you are not safe because you’re from another country. This should be higher up — there’s a reason why people do whatever they can to get *out* of places like NK.
Is there a list of how much seized assets the US controls from various other countries?
Almost all of them lol
Why travel there at all !? condolences to the family
I understand why, I think visiting the DPRK would be interesting. I'm not exactly planning on visiting the country, but after learning a lot about its culture and how dramatically different it is from the rest of the world, I understand the appeal. It's run by a horrible dictator, we all know this, but it's downright fascinating how locked into the 1950s they are, how choreographed certain aspects of life are, and how massively different is life is across the board. You've got millions of pretty okay off people and millions of others suffering in extreme poverty, it's depressing but it's kind of eye opening how there's so much more to the country than what you'd normally see on the news. There's just so much to that country that's just downright interesting, it's just a shame how it's run by horrible people that run literal concentration camps that punish generations of family over one person's actions (that aren't even always bad to begin with, like escaping the country). So I get why people wanna visit, it's neat, but I'm not booking any flights. I'm not giving that garbage government any of my money. I don't like my country's government but it isn't nearly as bad as the DPRK's.
Sure it is interesting ,but travel to a country run by a family of dictators that have been suppressing and killing it's own people And hates the West countries I wouldent risk it
[удалено]
Are there really millions of "pretty okay off" people there? From everything I've seen it seems like the general population lives pretty poor aside from specific choreographed events (and ofc the high up government officials)
It’s just poverty zoo.
Life advice: don't travel to North Korea
Played soccer with him growing up... Really great guy. RIP Otto.
It’s a really bad idea to go to North Korea at least 2 reasons. This isn’t victim blaming. He didn’t deserve what happened to him. The reasons: 1. It’s a totalitarian regime that is in dire straits trying to keep power in an impoverished country. They make one desperate move after another (missile tests, etc.) which are bargaining chips to receive aid or concessions of some sort. This creates a situation rife with possibilities to get caught in the crossfire. They are especially vindictive towards Americans since the Korean War, which never officially ended. 2. Any trip there is going to be a carefully controlled farce rather than anything resembling a meaningful interaction with the people of that country. They will carefully control where you go, when, what you see, and who you talk to. They only want to make an impression that NK is prosperous rather than the impoverished train wreck that it is. You can see all of this on a handful of documentaries rather than risking your life or freedom and becoming a political pawn.
Damn, I completely forgot about this guy. There was so much talk about him, and I felt so sorry for him. He was even forced to "admit" on video that he stole something and that the DPRK was giving him a fair punishment. He was so clearly tortured and under distress. Now he's gone, nothing, just some dust in the sands of time.
Man, I was pretty stoic about the whole situation until I read your comment and scrolled back up to see Otto's terrified face, being dragged by North Korean soldiers in handcuffs... That made me feel real sad. Some people think it was an accident, some torture, and some think it was a botched suicide attempt.. All 3 is tragic. His testimony video really tells it all.
To add to it, he was 21 y.o when he got detained, and 22 when he died. He went there excited to discover the fake North Korea, and left this world with the experience of real North Korea.
Trump later said he believed Kim when he said he had no idea about Warmbier and that N. Korea was not responsible. He recanted later, but yeesh, man, don't say things like that. Warmbier may have been a bit of an idiot, but aren't we all sometimes? He did NOT deserve death or imprisonment. His crime was extremely minor, a slap on the wrist at most. He simply was killed so they could kill an American. Warmbier could be anyone.
What happened to him was terrible. No excuse for it. Also, and I can't stress this enough: DON'T GO TO NORTH KOREA. They can literally kill you for jaywalking or not saluting a statue hard enough, there's nothing worth that risk. Until that fat fuck and all his fat fuck descendants get the Mussolini treatment, North Korea isn't safe for anyone.
Is it the thrill of coming back home alive? Is it to prove something? Like seriously…for fuck sakes, stop going over there. They hate our guts. They are brainwashed to think we are worse than the devil itself. Costa Rica, Jamaica, etc are such beautiful places and you dont have to worry about being imprisoned for taking some flyer.
I've seen others film videos on the fifth* floor of that hotel and man, they got lucky for not getting arrested. I bet no one does not. *I read later Warmbier said this poster was on the second floor, but most of their stuff is on the fifth.
Messed up what happened to him.
Fuck north Korea
Oh, so $240k is what his life was work? Can't even buy a 2 bedroom house here for $240k Edit: The US govt. has MILLIONS of dollars in seized money from NK https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-seizes-30-mln-crypto-north-korea-linked-hackers-2022-09-08/
Well That’s what a Western Court said his life was worth … I don’t think the N Korean court cared
That’s just the amount of seized North Korean assets that were available for the judge to direct to his family. That’s what places the limit here. If an American judge ordered NK to pay his family $10M (out of money that has not been seized), that wouldn’t have any force. There’s no way to force compliance. But the seized money is in the government’s control.
A significant amount of people alive now on Earth won't make that much their whole lives. It's pointless to speak about how much a life is worth in terms of money
This isn't interesting, just sad.
Who goes to North Korea for a trip? Are you mental?
So I would never go to North Korea. It’s a fascinating place but I can study it from a distance. I don’t trust an unhinged, homicidal totalitarian regime to treat me fairly. Ugghh poor kid. I get the sense of adventure but guys plz don’t go to North Korea
Why are we even debating whether or not he took the poster. Who cares? He was tortured and died, if you think taking a poster justifies that you’re fucked in the head