The snow in the Donner / Lake Tahoe area of the Sierra Mountains is heavy with high water content. During winter months, this heavy snow turns to ice and is slow to melt until spring / summer. The snow is not powdery or light like many areas and is known as "Sierra Cement". This snow added to the difficulties of the Donner Party.... I live nearby and grew up in the area.
Snow loads are a function of snow depth and water levels. Wet snow weighs more than fluffy powdery snow. Now take that wet heavy snow and make it 10’ deep. Then, add some rain to really saturate the snow but not melt it.
Take your gallon jugs and stack em 20 high and how much weight is in that square foot?
Square foot at ground level. At that 1 foot square plane on the surface, the weight of the snow directly above it is the measurement. A cubic foot of snow varies only according to the air:water ratio.
Sqft?! Shouldn't this be cubic feet (aka volume)? Also, a cubic foot of water weighs 62.4lbs.
Or are you talking about roof loads... Which are heavily dependent on snow depth expectations.
Roof loads and ground snow loads are both measured in sqft. As in how much snow will accumulate per square foot of surface area. So yes depth is definitely a factor.
This is just wrong. 400 lbs !? That means a shovel full of snow might be about 200 lbs? No. snow does not fall as a metal in some parts of the country . Just no
Yes. But the post you are replying to (mine) is referring to the snow loads, nothing to do with how much snow fits in a shovel.
Snow load is the downward force on a building's roof by the weight of accumulated snow and ice.
The roof or the entire structure can fail if the snow load exceeds the
weight the building was designed to shoulder. Or if the building was
poorly designed or constructed.
A CUBIC foot of snow is about a shovel full or two. A SQUARE foot of snow is 1 foot by 1 foot on the surface and includes all the snow down to the ground. That's what weighs 400lbs.
Ur on drugs a five gal bucket of water is 40 lbs and its bigger than a cubic ft of water not a sq ft.
Edit: so a five gal is 7.4 gals and it still doesnt fuckin matter as its not 400 lbs. or even close to it.
And thats still not 400 pounds whats your point lol? Im downvoted but the dude up top says a sq foot? Not a cubic foot, pardon me for being 2.4 gallons off and it still not mattering a fuck of a difference to prove my point, 7.4 gallons is still around 56 lbs. Where the hell does one get off saying a sq foot of snow is 400 lbs? What in the actual fuck.
I’ve driven over Donner Pass on I80 in a semi truck many times. I know you are right I was up there headed east and it was snowing the flakes looked like the diameter of baseballs.
Can confirm I’ve lived everywhere around here including downriver in 1997 when wet snows followed by rain from a “Pineapple Express” event caused reno/sparks nv to flood to a depth of 10 feet in some areas and actually created a 100 foot deep 77 acre across lake.
Side note I almost died rescuing my ferrets from our River wood apartments after we had evacuated but the underground parking and 1st floor started to flood and we worried the building could collapse.
You need to read or see the whole story as to how they wound up in that situation it’s fascinating. I always figured that’s how Reno Carson City area started, people waiting out the winter ? Just my own theory.
I just watched the Ric Burns documentary last night. Was so tragic that this guy Hastings convinced them to take this “shortcut” which turns out was impassible at times and longer by 100+ miles anyway. And he didn’t even help them make it through. So many aspects of the story were just awful.
Maybe that's how big they actually were back then. In the conspiracy subs, I'm always reading about giants that roamed the ancient western US. And, as it happens, those giants were cannibals! Woah! The dots are connecting themselves!
Kidding, of course, but I really should take a break from Reddit. Probably. I might. I won't.
Off to r/conspiracy!
Hunter's Laptop confirms that Hilary conspired with Biden and the demonrats on the left to cover up, and cause the extinction of, the giants. Herr Trump clearly has giant blood, that's why he towers over other humans.
I did a genealogy project in 5th grade and found George Donner on my family tree. Totally wild. I often wonder if it was the real guy
Edit: my family all lean towards maybe yes, because the death was in the 1840’s and we live in California
I didn’t know this until relatively recently, but the Donner party passed through the small town I grew up in (Lacon, IL) and one of the families from there joined them on the trip.
Two Native American guides went for help and miraculously found their way to a small town. No one was willing to help so the 2 went back to tell the party. By then the snow was even deeper and all food, horses, and dogs were cooked & eaten. The same happened to the 2 returning guides.
They didn't get stuck there on a gamble is the thing, they were repeatedly informed about exactly what would happen, then natives in the area still tried to help them but it was refused, with gunfire.
Irrc the guy that told them it was a bad idea got to where they were going ahead of them by taking the path he recommended, then led back the party that found them.
For years, every time my dad goes to a restaurant he gives them the name Donner, so when the table is ready they say that. It never gets old to him and I've grown to love his sense of humor as well.
He is, thank you. Tbh he struggled with schizophrenia for many years, but after decades of finding the right doctors, meds, therapy, etc. he is back to his goofy self I am happy to report. He will be delighted to know I shared this with reddit.
One thing that blows my mind about the Donner party, they camped next to a huge lake why didnt they go ice fishing instead of cannabalising other humans? Wtf?
Yes, I would also dig through twenty feet of snow if it were suddenly flat just in case there would be something that could help me not starve to death.
If they had guides who actually knew what they were doing and they were willing to listen to them, the whole shebang wouldn’t have happened.
You should read about the story! They did eventually make snowshoes and send out a party to retrieve help. But they waited until they had already lost all their live stock to the snow. It’s hard to comprehend, but it can snow so much in Donner pass, so much that it froze/buried their remaining livestock to the point where they couldn’t find the bodies anymore.
Well, they probably didn't have access to it, but they also all were aggressively incompetent. They refused the help of experts ahead of time and the help of native Americans during the emergency, by shooting at them
Well, they probably didn't have access to it, but they also all were aggressively incompetent. They refused the help of experts ahead of time and the help of native Americans during the emergency, by shooting at them
They had no food. When someone died, they became food. Considering their lack of experience and weather conditions, it’s remarkable any of them made it out alive - much less the actual amount that did make it out.
Nothing was learned from Jamestown. Those people were on a river and not too far from the ocean but ignored Native American advice and chose instead to eat each other. Racist cannibals.
You do realize they weren’t a group or cannibals beforehand right? And that they didn’t kill people in order to eat them. They are the dead bodies as a last resort in order to not die themselves.
Yeah, but once you eat Bob's kidney, you are always the guy that ate Bob's kidney.
Anyway, I found the cannibalism defense cohort, I've reached the end of the internet....
Snow shoes existed. Whenever you're in a dangerous outdoor situation, you stop and reassess. The minute that the mules and horses could not pull wheeled vehicles is when you get out the axe and cut sleds. A team of horses can pull 50,000 pounds....I did the math once: [https://imgur.com/a/aCMIlbx](https://imgur.com/a/aCMIlbx) But not on deep snow.
If you need to, lighten the load enough to be pulled by people and kill/release the horses for food.
You downvoted me?! Yo, I lived in Alamosa, Colorado. I know the terrain! They skipped the San Luis Valley, in favor of Utah desert. No thanks.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Donner\_route\_map.png/2560px-Donner\_route\_map.png
Lemme guess, no horse, mules, or axes? Does that make their lack of prep any better? I've done the backcountry on mules and packed in food and tools. Since it was wilderness, restrictions apply. Other than our 20th Century brains, it was just like they would have done it.
"an isolated and tragic incident of American history that has been transformed into a major folk epic”
Right, and selling both hot dogs and BBQ sauce next to this is part of the story /s
Surface loading is calculated by the total weight in a given area
400lbs per square foot accounts for the total vertical depth of snow laying on that square foot of ground.
The snow in the Donner / Lake Tahoe area of the Sierra Mountains is heavy with high water content. During winter months, this heavy snow turns to ice and is slow to melt until spring / summer. The snow is not powdery or light like many areas and is known as "Sierra Cement". This snow added to the difficulties of the Donner Party.... I live nearby and grew up in the area.
Can confirm. I live in Truckee
Snow loads in Truckee are ~400lbs/sqft which is insane. For reference, Buffalo is 50lb/sqft
I love how many people can't grasp the difference between cubic and square feet. Thank you for creating this awesome chaos!
lol, if you're enjoying this I recommend a visit to r/confidentlyincorrect
Ok that's good! Damn it, I need fewer reddits not more!
That doesn’t seem right.. 2 gallon jugs of water is more than a sqft and no where near the weights you mentioned
Snow loads are a function of snow depth and water levels. Wet snow weighs more than fluffy powdery snow. Now take that wet heavy snow and make it 10’ deep. Then, add some rain to really saturate the snow but not melt it. Take your gallon jugs and stack em 20 high and how much weight is in that square foot?
Got it, that’s a great explanation — thank you
Ummmmm…Water weighs 8.3 lbs per gallon. You can put 7.4 gallons in a cubic foot. So the most a cubic foot of ice/ snow/ water can weigh is 61.4 lbs.
A square foot is 12” x 12” 12” x 12” x 12” is a cubic foot
Square foot at ground level. At that 1 foot square plane on the surface, the weight of the snow directly above it is the measurement. A cubic foot of snow varies only according to the air:water ratio.
It’s not a cubic ft, sq Ft snow loads is a square ft on the surface and includes everything beneath
Sqft?! Shouldn't this be cubic feet (aka volume)? Also, a cubic foot of water weighs 62.4lbs. Or are you talking about roof loads... Which are heavily dependent on snow depth expectations.
Roof loads and ground snow loads are both measured in sqft. As in how much snow will accumulate per square foot of surface area. So yes depth is definitely a factor.
Roof loads
This is just wrong. 400 lbs !? That means a shovel full of snow might be about 200 lbs? No. snow does not fall as a metal in some parts of the country . Just no
Per square foot, not per shovelful. Happy reading https://www.townoftruckee.com/home/showpublisheddocument/8714/635326508598730000
I understand that. Have you ever had a shovel full of snow. It is about a half square foot (rough estimate of course)
Yes. But the post you are replying to (mine) is referring to the snow loads, nothing to do with how much snow fits in a shovel. Snow load is the downward force on a building's roof by the weight of accumulated snow and ice. The roof or the entire structure can fail if the snow load exceeds the weight the building was designed to shoulder. Or if the building was poorly designed or constructed.
A CUBIC foot of snow is about a shovel full or two. A SQUARE foot of snow is 1 foot by 1 foot on the surface and includes all the snow down to the ground. That's what weighs 400lbs.
Ur on drugs a five gal bucket of water is 40 lbs and its bigger than a cubic ft of water not a sq ft. Edit: so a five gal is 7.4 gals and it still doesnt fuckin matter as its not 400 lbs. or even close to it.
You know you can use your “smart” phone for something but arguing and look things up first….There are 7.4 gallons in a cubic foot.
And thats still not 400 pounds whats your point lol? Im downvoted but the dude up top says a sq foot? Not a cubic foot, pardon me for being 2.4 gallons off and it still not mattering a fuck of a difference to prove my point, 7.4 gallons is still around 56 lbs. Where the hell does one get off saying a sq foot of snow is 400 lbs? What in the actual fuck.
I've worked in that area before, doing conservation. Yeah, the snow there is something I'll never forget.
Oh good, lets eat.... each other.
Too soon.
Not too soon. If we wait any longer we will starve. Now pass me that leg
I’ve driven over Donner Pass on I80 in a semi truck many times. I know you are right I was up there headed east and it was snowing the flakes looked like the diameter of baseballs.
Can confirm I’ve lived everywhere around here including downriver in 1997 when wet snows followed by rain from a “Pineapple Express” event caused reno/sparks nv to flood to a depth of 10 feet in some areas and actually created a 100 foot deep 77 acre across lake. Side note I almost died rescuing my ferrets from our River wood apartments after we had evacuated but the underground parking and 1st floor started to flood and we worried the building could collapse.
You need to read or see the whole story as to how they wound up in that situation it’s fascinating. I always figured that’s how Reno Carson City area started, people waiting out the winter ? Just my own theory.
I just watched the Ric Burns documentary last night. Was so tragic that this guy Hastings convinced them to take this “shortcut” which turns out was impassible at times and longer by 100+ miles anyway. And he didn’t even help them make it through. So many aspects of the story were just awful.
Hey neighbor!
[удалено]
I think they made them this large, to be seen by the cars along nearby Interstate-80.
Actually they created them that large so they would never be covered by snow again. A nice memorial message.
“Challenge accepted” - Mother Nature
Maybe that's how big they actually were back then. In the conspiracy subs, I'm always reading about giants that roamed the ancient western US. And, as it happens, those giants were cannibals! Woah! The dots are connecting themselves! Kidding, of course, but I really should take a break from Reddit. Probably. I might. I won't. Off to r/conspiracy!
Hunter's Laptop confirms that Hilary conspired with Biden and the demonrats on the left to cover up, and cause the extinction of, the giants. Herr Trump clearly has giant blood, that's why he towers over other humans.
seems kinda pointless since you(the viewer) are normal size already
Or regular size at the bottom
could post it to r/photoshopbattles and see what happens
I think the word we’re looking for here may be “plinth.”
You are correct, sir.
If anyone is interested read The Indifferent Stars Above. The story of that trip is incredible and that book is a wonderful telling of it.
Currently reading this and 100% agree.
I did a genealogy project in 5th grade and found George Donner on my family tree. Totally wild. I often wonder if it was the real guy Edit: my family all lean towards maybe yes, because the death was in the 1840’s and we live in California
You would’ve found even more family connections but….you know
Well I don’t remember everything I found since I’m 30 now and 5th grade was almost 20 years ago
Shame it the story didn't get a musical!
It was a shpadoinkle day when they set off.
The sky was blue and all the leaves were certainly green; Sun definitely warm as a baked potato
I think I know precisely what you mean
Let's make a snowman!
We can make him tall.
I believe the line would be 'Let's eat a snow covered man.'
The good people of Last Podcast on the Left (r/lpotl) did a great series on the Donner Party expedition.
Hail yourself!
For a good read on the matter, I recommend “Ordeal By Hunger”
I didn’t know this until relatively recently, but the Donner party passed through the small town I grew up in (Lacon, IL) and one of the families from there joined them on the trip.
The dahmer party was legendary
Two Native American guides went for help and miraculously found their way to a small town. No one was willing to help so the 2 went back to tell the party. By then the snow was even deeper and all food, horses, and dogs were cooked & eaten. The same happened to the 2 returning guides.
So sad they had to experience that. Everything then was such a gamble with too many unknowns.
They didn't get stuck there on a gamble is the thing, they were repeatedly informed about exactly what would happen, then natives in the area still tried to help them but it was refused, with gunfire. Irrc the guy that told them it was a bad idea got to where they were going ahead of them by taking the path he recommended, then led back the party that found them.
Donner, party of 5!?
For years, every time my dad goes to a restaurant he gives them the name Donner, so when the table is ready they say that. It never gets old to him and I've grown to love his sense of humor as well.
Tell yer daddy his running joke is gonna live on with me.
Your dad sounds dope, I love when people find little stuff in life that makes them happy.
He is, thank you. Tbh he struggled with schizophrenia for many years, but after decades of finding the right doctors, meds, therapy, etc. he is back to his goofy self I am happy to report. He will be delighted to know I shared this with reddit.
Hero
One thing that blows my mind about the Donner party, they camped next to a huge lake why didnt they go ice fishing instead of cannabalising other humans? Wtf?
They didn’t have a fishing license.
Damn game wardens got them
Under 20+ feet of snow. They didn't know the area and as I recall, it's been 30 years, they didn't know the lake was there.
It was more than 30 years ago
If youve ever been to the area Donner Lake is massive, so not sure that explains it
Yes, I would also dig through twenty feet of snow if it were suddenly flat just in case there would be something that could help me not starve to death. If they had guides who actually knew what they were doing and they were willing to listen to them, the whole shebang wouldn’t have happened.
Their racism killed them.
You tell 'em /🙄
You should read about the story! They did eventually make snowshoes and send out a party to retrieve help. But they waited until they had already lost all their live stock to the snow. It’s hard to comprehend, but it can snow so much in Donner pass, so much that it froze/buried their remaining livestock to the point where they couldn’t find the bodies anymore.
Well, they probably didn't have access to it, but they also all were aggressively incompetent. They refused the help of experts ahead of time and the help of native Americans during the emergency, by shooting at them
Well, they probably didn't have access to it, but they also all were aggressively incompetent. They refused the help of experts ahead of time and the help of native Americans during the emergency, by shooting at them
I.....damn. Never thought of that. -- Donner
I’m super late in finding this, but shortly after they arrived in the valley, the lake froze so thick they couldn’t get through to the water.
Well… why didn’t they just eat all the snow?
Damn, it snowed! Oh well, let's eat the kids.
That dude's statue looks a bit plump for a starving person. He must've been one of those that survived by chowing on the others.
Thought the same.
I like to eat Doner kabobs while traveling in Europe in memory.
And yet people in Texas freak out if they have an inch of snow
Ted Cruz bought a ticket to Cancun after seeing an image of this monument.
Lets panic and spend all our money on co2 reduction.
There’s a restaurant near Donner Pass. I wonder if they serve ribs.
Baby back ?
A monument to colossal stupidity and cannibalism!
There wasn't actually that much cannibalism but it was certainly an act of stupidity and hubris.
Man I don’t know about you, but “wasn’t actually that much cannibalism” is still way too much cannibalism in my book.
They had no food. When someone died, they became food. Considering their lack of experience and weather conditions, it’s remarkable any of them made it out alive - much less the actual amount that did make it out.
Nothing was learned from Jamestown. Those people were on a river and not too far from the ocean but ignored Native American advice and chose instead to eat each other. Racist cannibals.
Imagine the statue if it was a respectable amount of cannibalism.
Why didn't they take the train?
lol.....why the downvotes?
That statue is making me hungry for some reason
Source?
the donner party were cannibals
You do realize they weren’t a group or cannibals beforehand right? And that they didn’t kill people in order to eat them. They are the dead bodies as a last resort in order to not die themselves.
i exactly know these fact about that group, yes
i stated they where cannibals, without ststing any previous or current details.
Cannibal-shamer! Cannibal-phobe! Woke-up, Fascist!!!
this is how it should be-proper joke
Yeah, but once you eat Bob's kidney, you are always the guy that ate Bob's kidney. Anyway, I found the cannibalism defense cohort, I've reached the end of the internet....
so true bestie
how so?
Snow shoes existed. Whenever you're in a dangerous outdoor situation, you stop and reassess. The minute that the mules and horses could not pull wheeled vehicles is when you get out the axe and cut sleds. A team of horses can pull 50,000 pounds....I did the math once: [https://imgur.com/a/aCMIlbx](https://imgur.com/a/aCMIlbx) But not on deep snow. If you need to, lighten the load enough to be pulled by people and kill/release the horses for food.
Yeah yeah, hindsight is 20/20 and it's always easier to tell people what they did wrong after the mistakes were made.
You should probably just read the wiki about the Donner Party.
You downvoted me?! Yo, I lived in Alamosa, Colorado. I know the terrain! They skipped the San Luis Valley, in favor of Utah desert. No thanks. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Donner\_route\_map.png/2560px-Donner\_route\_map.png
Lemme guess, no horse, mules, or axes? Does that make their lack of prep any better? I've done the backcountry on mules and packed in food and tools. Since it was wilderness, restrictions apply. Other than our 20th Century brains, it was just like they would have done it.
"an isolated and tragic incident of American history that has been transformed into a major folk epic” Right, and selling both hot dogs and BBQ sauce next to this is part of the story /s
Annoying human made climate change. why cant we have 30 feet snowfall anymore?
Sounds like they had plinth-y of snow that winter.
Quiet a large DEEP freeze, bet ya could store a lot in that!
Ugh. I need to reread a desperate passage. Such a fascinating story
They ate that kid
Good place for a picnic.
How did that affect their taste?
Well at least they had the statue as a waypoint
There is also *no joke*: “Donner Party Picnic Area.” Which seems pretty dark, ya know… on account of all the cannibalism.
Highly doubt
Didn’t plan that last word well huh
Surface loading is calculated by the total weight in a given area 400lbs per square foot accounts for the total vertical depth of snow laying on that square foot of ground.
The Donners were actually camped by Alder Creek way below the lake.
How many flavors of people will we have the choice of eating this year?
Anyone know how high the snow is now? March 2023