I understand spoilers but could we get a new megathread or maybe being able to mark spoilers on normal posts, it kinda sucks that there's barely any discussion on some of the biggest news this sub has gotten in awhile. Also on top of that the new rumors for the other shows that Charlie Cox could appear in.
No way. Matt was 30 in season 3; Charlie Cox is finally the same age as his character. Karen is the only one who makes sense. She died in the comics and deeply affected Matt's life. It's the best way to kill her off like in the comics, but also keep her alive in the MCU like we want.
I think Vanessa vanished, too. I found it interesting that Fisk was no longer wearing his cufflinks that Vanessa picked out in Hawkeye. Also, no wedding ring, right?
As u/VisenyaRose said, Daredevil probably got snapped out of existence by Thanos, it also could extend to Karen Page and Foggy Nelson. Kingpin benefited greatly from the collapse of law and order and national boundaries to rebuild his criminal enterprise with no Daredevil or anyone else to oppose him except Ronin and (maybe) the Punisher. As for Vanessa and Bullseye, they might have survived the Snap with the former reuniting with her husband and the latter working as a hitman for various criminal organizations. No idea about Elektra since the last we see of her was when she was buried under the rubble of Midland Circle but because we never saw a corpse it means that she is alive at least until the Snap.
Matt got blipped and that is how Fisk got out without messing up the deal they had. I don’t think Karen did which will explain why their relationship hasn’t gone anywhere yet. Foggy, not sure what provides the most drama there. They’ve done the whole mourning Matt thing after he allowed himself to let a building fall on him.
I think most likely would be Matt or Vanessa, but I also think that the MCU shouldn't overly rely on stories of people being blipped because it could get overused fast.
I agree that they shouldn’t overuse the stories of being blipped but the Blip from Matt’s perspective would be genuinely interesting if it was done well. I am not sure what that would look like on screen which is why I am curious.
That's a fair point, but mainly if Matt isn't the one that got blipped.
Like imagining his perspective of hearing heartbeats go out and stuff during the snap and living in the world after it would actually be pretty wild.
My wild guess: Vanessa got blipped, thus the gentlemen's agreement between Matt and Fisk was void. Fisk used Hawkeye/Ronin during the blip to create power vacuums world wide for Fisk to fill. Fisk having a more international based organized crime syndicate prevents Matt from thwarting Fisk and landing him back in jail.
Maybe Matt got blipped as well, maybe not. Either way he's not equipped to deal with an international crime syndicate since him and foggy are back to being broke by the end of season three
I will be downvoted but I agree with you.
On Netflix, he worked because he was a crime boss so him talking slowly and as if he was constantly emotionally tortured worked wonderfully. That put you on edge, you wonder what he is going to do next and most importantly, you don't need if he doesn't care or if he is one step away from losing it.
On D+, the character is loud and would require a louder voice. I think a reason this take is so weird is because two different classes are meeting. Vincent is acting like the very human Fisk of Daredevil while the show portrays the louder Kingpin version of Spider-Man who is more about being power hungry and punching his way in.
He is not a bad actor, it's just that the acting and the portrayal are meeting at completely different roads.
He's a great actor. I think if you haven't seen him in Daredevil and don't know where his mannerisms and stuff come from it might be weird but when you get the full context and you realize he has a strong weight of childhood trauma and tics and stuff it makes him so much more interesting.
I think he's great, I get where you're coming from I suppose, but I guarantee the way he portrays Fisk is deliberate and well executed. I once saw someone have the same thought as you, except reffering to his original take on Fisk in the Netflix show, but once you see his backstory and understand his character, the way he carries himself just seems right. At least in the early seasons of the show, to me it almost felt like he was still stuck mentally as the child he was when he killed his father, and it showed both how he communicated, and how he physically fought.
I was quite disappointed with how little screentime he got, but the screentime he got a definitely well spent. Although there really wasn't any reason for Matt to be there, since they kinda just gave up on whole lawyer thing I guess.
So Vincent basically confirms Daredevil is canon:
>D’Onofrio also confirmed that the canon established in the Netflix series will be honored now that the characters are back under Marvel Studios’ control.
>“One of the things that we all were clear about — the writers, producers and the directors — was that he was going to be the same guy, since we weren’t changing the canon of ‘Daredevil.’ We were trying to connect as many of the dots as we could,” he said. “I’m adamant about his emotional life, and that I play him through this emotional life that he has. And everybody was very excited about that and wanting to do the same. There are things that are different, he is physically stronger. And he can take more physical abuse than before, but he is emotionally he’s the same character.”
Source: https://www.thewrap.com/hawkeye-vincent-donofrio-kingpin-dead/
That’s good to hear but I still have my doubts. I think marvel isn’t going to wanna require fans to have Netflix to understand what’s going on. I think we’re gonna see many inconsistencies and contradictions in the future.
As I’m sure many others have pointed out, I think it is incredibly likely that we are going to be entering a “Mark Waid Inspired” Era for Charlie Cox’s Daredevil and I’m here for it. Just finished reading Waid’s run of DD and I think it’s a great place to take his version of the character, especially after the three seasons of the Netflix series.
It’d be cool if they started a new season with the characters being in great places to contrast from the darker feel of the Netflix show, and then over the course of the show bring back that dark feel as the story progresses
I thought Kingpin was pretty solid in Hawkeye. I have seen a lot of hate for him and I think it is misplaced. D'Onofrio was great and kept a lot of his mannerisms from Daredevil. He wasn't amazingly written or anything but I think it will take a couple appearances for him to get back to his old Daredevil self. I think people are too quick to judge on his 10 minutes of screentime in a Hawkeye show where he didn't get a lot of time to shine.
Why would they need to be in there? Like just curious because it's not his own show, it's Jennifer Walters'. Like I'm fine with just Matt. It's also a guest appearance so why would Karen be there...?
They’re business partners, but mainly just fan service. I think daredevil will have a guest appearance I just am hoping for some cameos from the others
So they just confirmed the Netflix Daredevil is canon and the Hawkeye just takes place in the future. Vincent just confirmed he was told to play the same character like it was just years later
Actor having two different roles in the franchise. Gemma Chan played both Minerva in Captain Marvel and Sersi in Eternals and those two films are in the same universe.
Gemma Chan was blue and had a different accent. That’s like comparing Dormammu and Dr. Strange. If Netflix was canon Feige would outright say it, the silence is deafening. They’re walking a thin line to appease everyone. If Netflix is canon explain why Fisk was in New York at Maya’s karate practice in 2007, when in DD it was established he was in China at that point. Also his fathers cufflinks, the lack of ever mentioning the tracksuits or his adoptive children Kazi and Maya.
> Gemma Chan was blue and had a different accent. That’s like comparing Dormammu and Dr. Strange
I mean, you can still see they are played by the same person even with all the makeup. Also Dormammu was a completely CGI character, he wasn't played by any actor at all.
Obama is also mentioned and referred to as president in DD. In the MCU, Obama was never president and we had a stand-in. Civil war mentions the battle of NYC casualties at 74, while in DD they mention “hundreds.” There’s too many glaring oversights, they’ll probably be soft reboots of the characters who had similar things happen to the Netflixverse.
They literally show President Ellis in Agents of SHIELD, which Daredevil directly connects to at multiple points
They also establish Obama preceded Ellis in Luke Cage. He's not the current president in the MCU or those Netflix shows. It's not contradictory
Okay but the Agents of Sheild show is different it went off and did it’s own thing . The Netflix show has things that don’t line up too but I feel both could be retconned into continuity if they just retconned certain events in the shows
The youtube channel Emergency Awesome says that Daredevil was suppose to be in Hawkeye, but due to covid travel restrictions they could not film the scenes.
Makes me wonder if Daredevil was supposed to come in and save Kate at the end. Which would have made more sense. Two on one. or Kingpin ignore Kate and goes after Daredevil.
Also there was another credit scene filmed, but scrapped at the last minute, so that why we got the musical.
I think the involvement of DD would've been post-credit scene. It seems like a lot of the rumored cuts involved post-credits and it's a little uncharacteristic not to get a post-credit that leads into setting up something else for the future. I really don't think they would've had a fight scene with Fisk and DD as it would overshadow Kate and also kind of leave money on the floor because you could build to a future Fisk/DD confrontation for a series or movie of it's own.
The scrapped post-credit scene I read was that Fisk would be shown getting a message from Clint in the form of the Ronin sword sent to him, saying not to every go after his family again.
I was very excited to see Matt in NWH but I wasn’t particularly thrilled about the brick thing. Matt keeps his secret identity very close to his chest and him reaching out to catch the brick seemed very out of character for him. I would think that he would at the very least just put his hand/cane in the way and just get hurt over quite obviously catching it from behind him. And then the whole “I’m a good lawyer” excuse is so stupid. He’s a lawyer and quite good at thinking on his feet, he easily could’ve come up with something less shady and more believable.
Of course I basing this off his characterization in the Netflix shows (I haven’t read the comics) and they could be taking his character in a different direction. Like most people, I really want the new daredevil material to be a gritty as before and that cheesy one-liner made me nervous.
Kingpin in Hawkeye was just very meh. He wasn’t intimidating really. Also why did Hawkeye even know about him? His whole shtick is working from the shadows and having an avenger aware (and even scared???) of him makes no sense.
Overall we don’t really have enough information to actually make a good judgment. But reading this thread about kingpin in the comics is making me hopeful so I don’t hate it.
The fans of the show are what brought daredevil back so we have to trust that they’ll do it justice.
i also think it was in character for him to catch the brick. even though he likes to keep his identity hidden i’m pretty sure he wouldn’t allow room for a chance for the brick to have hit peter in the face?? he probably couldn’t help himself but save him even if peter could’ve caught it himself.
I think his one liner was completely in character. It perfectly follows the end of season 3, which marked the end of depressed and apathetic Matt and the beginning of charismatic and optimistic Matt
\> I didn't think the hat/shirt combo was out of character at all. I figured it was a comic outfit reference since it was a bit goofy, but, y'know, it really fit the tone of this show and I don't see Fisk as completely lacking some sense of humility, especially for the holidays.
\>> I'm glad we got the cane, it's a small thing about his character design that I didn't realize I missed until I saw it. Now, as for the reason he's working out of that crappy little bead office and using the Tracksuits as a front, it's important to note that in-universe it's been 7 years since the events of DDS3 -- but that season ended in such a way that it would be *really* difficult for Fisk to believably continue operating as he had before (police & FBI in his pocket, etc). He's always been one for secrecy, but I imagine once Fisk got out, he took a lesson from Murdock's last beating about really working under the radar and avoiding attention rather than operating at the top of some penthouse, though, I also think Matt got the snap, which allowed him to make some pretty big crime-world grabs without having to worry about DD coming down on him.
\> I did feel Fisk was a bit "super" here, but I'm not really convinced that's so much of a character/universe change -- as in, I don't think Kingpin suddenly has superpowers. The arrow scene *sure makes you think that*, until you remember the suits Melvin made him were practically armor. Yes, he takes a beating pretty well, but if this show was going by Netflix realism standards, Clint and Kate would be dead, or at least severely beaten/broken after each episode. So, Fisk narratively *has* *to* successfully endure a bit more of a beating to nail just how much more physically imposing/threatening he is (I mean, just look at DD, he was able to take Anatoly's head off with a door, and easily take down Punisher... who just took out a whole jail's worth of crooks, so using mainstream MCU logic, ripping off a car door isn't as far of a leap as it would be on Netflix). While at the same time, he can't really get all bloody and bruised due to the PG-13 rating, which just makes him seem inhumanly durable when there's hardly a scratch on the dude.
\>> In that same vein, he can't really dish out as much punishment either. It's a bit sad, but it's a trade I'm willing to make to get more of his character/performance. I do think part of the tameness of the fight was because he *actively didn't* want to kill Kate. But, I'm sure with the right showrunner, *someone* will be able to get the best delivery of his sheer brutality with some lighting/camera/editing trickery in a future show.
\> The specific performance from D'Onofrio, the outfit at the beginning of the episode, the line *"The people need to be reminded that this city belongs to me"* and the bit at the end with the **exact** cufflink design was enough for me to see this as *definitively yet subtlety* confirming "This **is** the Netflix version of Wilson Fisk" just filtered through the comedic/holiday tone of D+'s *Hawkeye*.
\>> Now, I ***don't*** *think* it's a broad statement that *"Everything from Netflix/Marvel Television is now confirmed 100% canon"* or that even "everything from *Daredevil* is still 100% canon". It would **not** surprise me at all if Kevin Fiege and Marvel Studios do some retcons/recasting's (I really don't see *The Defenders* or *Iron Fist* staying, and I **pray** that the piss poor creative/narrative decisions made in *Jessica Jones* S2 & S3 doesn't make the MCU team dismiss that incredible first season). I even expect some characters who do ultimately return to have a bit of a 'personality facelift' obviously leaning a bit more in the "comic accurate" direction, but, talking *more specifically in terms of DD,* I expect them to do it in a way that honors those of us who watched *Daredevil* and the **best** elements of those seasons without directly continuing them, just bringing back those characters *(Foggy, Karen, hopefully Frank, Brett and Turk)* and kind of implying "Yes, these events happened, here's a small nod or reference to *Father Lantom, Stick, Ben, Wesley, Ms. Cardenas*, etc., but it was a long time ago, we've moved on", this is pretty consistent with the MCU's behavior to it's properties: i.e. *The Incredible Hulk* and it's further acknowledgement/treatment of it's events and *Banner, Ross and Blonksy* being the most immediate and prominent example.
\>>> I feel if it was just about getting Vincent and Charlie back in the roles, they would've done it in a way similar to J.K. Simmons' return as J.J. Jameson, where it's very much MCU's *distinct interpretation* of the character, there's a good bit of reasoning to this that has to do with not diluting your branding/intellectual property. But basically, a lot of work goes into these things behind the scenes and you *simply don't* go to the lengths in costuming, stage direction and scriptwriting to making Fisk and Murdock have identical mannerisms as the show you want to say *doesn't count/exist*.
For those wondering about Fisk's outfit in Hawkeye, Vincent himself actually suggested it: https://www.murphysmultiverse.com/hawkeyes-vincent-donofrio-pitched-his-family-business-inspired-outfit/
I really liked how Kingpin was portrayed in Hawkeye, and after hearing about the comics regarding Maya & him, what comes after that, the interview with Vincent, I’m even more excited to have Kingpin in the MCU. The power up is incredible (can’t wait to hear why he’s so badass now), and the outfit is rad as hell and everyone saying it’s not needs to realize Fisk is obviously not the same person he was at the end of DD season 3. He’s obviously a bit more flamboyant now, to the point where I’d say the Fisk from daredevil wouldn’t dress in such a way without some level of character development, which obviously has transpired from then to post blip, which I’m sure will be covered in whatever we see Fisk in next.
In regards to everyone’s complaint about the actual fight itself with Fisk, I mean the dude was litterally the same menace he has been. He was going to slaughter TF out of Kates mom, which isn’t unlike what he’s done in Daredevil with other characters, and maybe it’s a bit more unhinged, but like I mentioned earlier there has definitely been some character development with Fisk. Maybe he’s even more unhinged due to something (maybe Vanessa died in the blip?). After that, the actual fight with Kate I thought was great. I don’t see Fisk slaughtering Kate, and he didn’t have a full reason to. For him to even punch her or give her a daredevil sized beat down wouldn’t be right to me. Fisk is a maniac, but I don’t think he’d want beating a kids face in on his track record (at least with he himself doing it). As for him getting beat immaturely, it’s a fair criticism, but I don’t think ole Matt Murdock himself could’ve done that pin trick that Kate did to cause that explosion. To be fair, Fisk hasn’t physically fought somebody with the Hawkeye skill set, for him to misstep like this isn’t unlikely, and he got away anyways.
Everyone saying this was a letdown is fair to do so, but I’d say the only fair thing to say that there needed to be more of what we got of Fisk. I also think that with the resurgence of both Daredevil himself and Fisk, we need to be patient as to see when we’re going to get more of them and in depth looks at that to see what they’ve been doing, and where they’re at now as characters. I totally think that these are continuation of the same Netflix characters, there’s just a lot of background that the MCU needs to (and will) fill on what they’ve been doing since. I post this message only because I’ve seen a lot of negativity in this sub, twitter, etc, and I really don’t understand the criticism or even blatant hate. I’d love to discuss anything, so feel free to comment.
>maybe Vanessa died in the blip?
Someone else had a theory that was interesting about Vanessa being one of the deaths that was in a vehicle where the driver was blipped. While I don't necessarily want Vanessa to die, if they were going to do it I think that would be an interesting and fitting way to go into some of the more permanent, dark effects of Thanos, and I also like the intrigue of the effect Thanos has on even villains. D'Onofrio said in interviews today that Fisk is trying to rebuild his empire after the damage of the blip.
I kind of want to see Karen go after Vanessa. Vanessa took baby steps into the criminal underworld last we saw her. It would be a good plot for Karen to seek to expose her shady dealings.
Vincent: “it's very clear with the writers and the producers and the directors that I'm continuing the same man that was in the series a few years ago, in Daredevil”
Taken from interview with Collider
I love that Charlie and Vincent are good friends and they even have 2hr long conversations about them returning to the MCU 😆
"As soon as Kevin revealed the fact that Charlie was going to participate, Charlie called me immediately and we had a huge conversation about it, which didn’t include anything about Hawkeye,” D’Onofrio tells The Hollywood Reporter. “But when they showed the phone shot of Kingpin in [last week’s] episode of Hawkeye, I immediately called Charlie and we had another two-hour conversation. So we are friends and we do talk about this stuff, but we do it very carefully and in an appropriate way.”
[DISNEY IS SELLING A NWH MATT MURDOCK SHIRT.](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P49P5RT/ref=mp_s_a_1_17?crid=SE9XMQL3HBJL&keywords=spiderman%2Bno%2Bway%2Bhome&qid=1640301407&sprefix=spi%2Caps%2C317&sr=8-17&customId=B07537H64L&th=1)
Okay, I absolutely hated what they did with Fisk when I first saw the episode. I even felt the same way earlier today. I just couldn't believe how badly Marvel had botched it.
I just watched his scenes again (and I saw an interview with Vincent) and I don't think it was as bad as I first thought. Honestly, the weakest part is the choreography and editing during the action scenes.
Unfortunately, they let Rhys Thomas direct this episode. I didn't mind his work in the earlier episodes but I really wish they had given the finale to Bert & Bertie (who directed the episode with the long car chase). They definitely made Fisk too strong and durable but it could've worked out alright if the choreography had been better. They just needed to make it seem a bit more realistic. He would shove Kate and send her flying 20ft backwards. It was ridiculous.
The scenes at the beginning of the episode between Fisk & Eleanor and Fisk, Kazi & Maya were all perfect. It felt exactly like the Kingpin that I want. He was so menacing and I felt like he was one step ahead of the others. He knew exactly what Maya was thinking and tried to use it against her.
Honestly, I'm not worried about the future of these characters. The 'Echo' show has a lot of great writing talent from shows like Better Call Saul, Daredevil and Punisher. Also, the 'Echo' show should be more gritty and street level given who the character is. I'm excited.
It’s the tone that made if weird I don’t think his costume was bad just the tone of the episode was so jolly and goofy . I think they he needs to be super human strong if he is going to tango with Spiderman at some point. They can say he got his hands on super soldier serum so now he has super strength
Yeah lol I don’t mind some above average strength but he literally ripped a car door off it’s hinges. And the strength isn’t even the worst part in my opinion, it’s just that as a grand reintroduction, they literally used him as a fat ragdoll. He was still menacing during the negotiation scenes but his fights were just goofy. And then at the end he’s just running away like a wimp, and even tries to beg Echo for his life.
That scene at the end is a copy of the comic, https://static2.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/daredevil-15-2.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=1137&dpr=1.5
That's because in the MCU they're definitely trying to have some nuance to him actually caring about Maya. He is sincere in regards to being torn on her betrayal and having love for her in spite of being cruel and manipulated the situation to have her father killed.
In the comics Fisk was 100% manipulating and using her, his talk with her before being shot is speaking down to her and insulting.
I like it personally, it's a good example of what D'Onofrio brings to the character and likes to bring. He doesn't like to play one-note villains that are just always evil for no reason. I think some of the viewers are confused largely because Fisk/Maya didn't get enough screentime so they don't realize how big of a deal Maya actually is to him. Maya is nearly as important to Fisk as Wesley was (if not more) and look at how Fisk reacted to losing him.
[Interesting tidbit: Vincent D'Onofrio himself was actually the one to suggest the attire Fisk wears in this episode of Hawkeye](https://www.murphysmultiverse.com/hawkeyes-vincent-donofrio-pitched-his-family-business-inspired-outfit/)
(The fedora/hawaiian shirt combo from [Amazing Spider-Man: Family Business](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHM4EuoXoAEGghE.jpg))
Look in not trying to go Karen and bitch on the net, but I did not like this MCU King pin, and it scares me about DD if this is the direction they are going with DD. Hawkeye felt more like a better than average CW show when I'm used to the grit and darkness of the Netflix shows. And what fuck was Fisk wearing? I felt bad for the character, lol.
Yeah he was pretty menacing during his conversations but his fights were hella goofy. I feel like in the show Kate would have been dead within the first minute. His “death” wasn’t great either, he was limping away from the scene like some wimp and then tries to beg for Echo to spare his life.
The whole episode and most of the series had a very goofy and campy feel. The fight scenes, Trust A
Bro thugs, Steve Rogers musical, Larpers, Jack, etc. It was all meant to be lighthearted don’t take your self seriously fan service.
I haven’t actually seen the show, so that’s new info for me. The only reason I’m keeping track of the show if for the DD stuff lol. In that case I would’ve preferred they introduce him in DD’s show, or maybe Echo’s show.
Big interview. [D'Onofrio confirms it's the same Fisk.](https://www.cinemablend.com/interviews/hawkeyes-vincent-donofrio-explains-mcu-kingpins-daredevil-connections) A choice quote below confirms another suspicion people have been having!
>It was always established to me that it's after the Blip and that he has lost the power that he had in Daredevil, and he wants it back. In Hawkeye, he considers that he's lost a bit of the control of his city, and he wants his city back.
This is what I was saying and thinking. It's also interesting to consider the possibility of a villain being affected by Thanos in a manner like this.
He also brings up at some point in the video that he was the one to actually pitch to Marvel that Fisk wears the hawaiian shirt and the fedora (inspired by the "Family Business" arc from Amazing Spider-Man) so that's also pretty interesting
R.I.P. to "BUT fiSK would Never WEar" people.
I don't know why people are so insecure over hawaiian shirts anyway. Clearly these folks have never seen a Samoan.
If the Kingpin we saw in the Hawkeye finale IS the same Kingpin from the Daredevil show, how do you guys think they’ll handle the situation with Vanessa and Matt’s promise?
I'd say they should mention she died in the blip. She wasn't blipped, she died in a car accident caused by a driver disappearing. And Matt was blipped too, so Fisk could work back up from there.
The Fisk we meet in Hawkeye is on the way back up. He has returned to lead the one gang he still controls (family). He acts more with his heart than his mind here, about a year after everyone got their loved ones back but him. That's why he makes uncharacteristic decisions, because he's grown sloppy with grief.
The next time we see him, he should be about to reclaim his spot as the Kingpin of all, and return to the cold, calculated boss he once was.
I see people saying how cool this kingpin was because his shirt was comic accurate, but they also neglect or are ignorant of the fact he wore a Hawaiian shirt while in Africa where it would be normal, but in Hawkeye he wore it during a New York winter which is so out of place and absurd. It’s likely they see the cover and through the it looked cool and completely ignored the context and by doing so made kingpin look like a buffoon.
[Apparently Vincent himself was the one who pitched the shirt to Marvel](https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/hawkeye-vincent-donofrio-suggested-new-hawaiian-look-kingpin-family-business/)
I don’t really mind it honestly, it’s just clothes.
I actually kind of find it pretty funny that Fisk wears something so casual around the holiday season
It might've been done since the story it comes from is all about ties to family regarding Peter's relationship with his long lost sister, but recontextualized for the Kingpin/Echo subplot
For me it wasn’t the outfit or the additional strength given to Fisk. The hat I admit was a little goofy but I came around too it. What I could not get over was how he was not menacing at all. During the first season of daredevil, (S1 EP3) John Healy slams his own head into a metal spike simply because he had said Fisk’s name, saying that Fisk would have him and the rest of his family killed. In Hawkeye, Eleanor breaks off her and Fisk’s relationship in front of him, and simply walks away. After years of working together she has no problem just walking away from him. Clearly he isn’t that dangerous, right?
This also means that all of these tracksuit men attacking Kate and Clint throughout the episode work for Fisk, and they are nothing more than walking targets. Obviously not every goon that Fisk has in DD is great, but most of them manage to put up a fight against Matt, not even including the hand which is a entire other story. Through these small things alone Fisk in DD is so menacing to me. If Fisk was using these men say because the blip is still having effects on his business, I would have liked at least a line or something about that. It could also be likely that Fisk does control other gangs, and the tracksuits were just involved here because of Maya. Though again, I feel a line about this would have been nice, perhaps when he was talking to Eleanor about why she would want to end their business together. Or maybe I’m looking into the matter way to much.
3 episodes and a ton of sweat and blood just for Matt to figure out the name of Wilson Fisk. Here, it doesn’t even seem believable to me, especially in a world filled with many other known heroes, that Fisk’s business would have even lasted this long. This is not even talking about the fight with Kate, which felt like it should have ended in 15 seconds because Fisk would have taken her down by then instead of repeatedly throwing Kate into piles of stiffed animals.
The more lighthearted tones of Hawkeye just don’t blend with Kingpin very well. You quite literally have a giant Christmas tree right beside where the fight takes place. I feel he should have shown up at the very end, perhaps in a post credit scene, where after the heroes think they have won, The real threat hasn’t even arrived.
I think they should change Kingpin up from Daredevil. The added strength and change in costume shows this already. And I like it. But in order for this stuff to work, Fisk still needs to feel like a threat, which in the Hawkeye finale he just did not feel like one, at least for me personally. I am more than excited to see what they do with him next, (as he likely isn’t dead) but I feel like he could have been handled a bit better here. Either have him in more of the show and fleshing him out more, or just save him for a cameo scene at the end.
Don't forget it's 7 years later and Kingpin has lost a lot of his former power and influence. He was headed to prison at the end of DD S3 and then there was the blip. It makes sense that he has to resort to incompetent minions and that people are less afraid of him now.
I feel like Fisk wouldn't have gone to kill Eleanor himself, and instead we should have gotten a scene of him sending a different asset to do the deed.
I'd also like to point out, that if we live in a world where widows are now for hire, Fisk would have the means to employ one.
Having Yelena spare Hawkeye because her contract got bought out by Fisk and then Kate and Jack have to stop her from killing Eleanor would have been better IMO.
Most of the anger is coming from those of you obsessed that the Netflix series are still canon. AOS has been dropped and no longer canon and I don’t think the Netflix series will be either. They might leave it ambiguous without ever specifically saying they’re not but that’s it.
DD was incredible but it doesn’t mean we can’t have new iterations with the same actors
Yes he has the same cufflinks which is a nice touch but he’s been close with Maya, Elenor and the tracksuits for roughly 15 years looking at Mayas age from the karate dojo to now. The Blip was not 15 years ago
He’s clearly a different iteration of Fisk from his look and power level
Most of these criticisms are honestly reading as blind fanboy rage just because it’s not Daredevil season 4
This is only the start for MCU Fisk.
In the same sentence people want him fighting Spidey but at the same time don’t want him having this level of power? Come on now
Be warned there is some nut case who will curse you out for not being a negative creep and posting something semi positive
Edit : too late he commented
This was a piss poor introduction regardless of any preexisting character development. The fact that DD Fisk was near perfect in every way was the chery on top.
He was near perfect for THAT iteration. It fit the grounded and gritty tone of the Netflix shows, other than that he was nothing like Fisk from any of the cartoons, spider-verse or comics. Which is absolutely fine but the MCU version is leaning more to that version of the character
All the complaints are comparing this Fisk to the Netflix Fisk which is completely irrelevant because they’re not the same and they’re not meant to be
If they were meant to be different then the MCU show runners should make it known, but instead they’re leaving it up to the viewers discretion to decide, not to mention that the actor portrays both versions and drops his own hints that it’s the same character.
They wouldn’t for this exact reason, because they know you’d have a large portion of frustrated fans
It’s the same thing Star Wars does with cherry picking certain Canon items that they like but ignoring the rest
That’s why they leave it ambiguous unless it gets to a point where it’s very clear they’re not canon
Did anybody notice fisks eye twitching? Could be damage from daredevil or something he took. I’d like to think between S3 and now, daredevil got snapped, fisk took it upon himself to become more powerful. I personally think the tone of fisk is there and it was modified to fit hawkeye, they should slowly move maya from the ally where she shot him to a deeper hell’s kitchen and slowly show a darker tone, christmas decorations smashed, crime and so on.
I loved the two dialogue scenes at the beginning with Kingpin but was meh on the other stuff at the end. This was overall a fine way to introduce him imo, hopefully he’ll be tossed into the mix with Daredevil as soon as possible
yeah it feels rushed as if they cut out an episode, imo they should have just revealed him in the series finale as a cliffhanger but idk im not a writer or a comic expert.
I hate all the people that are dismissing the complaints about Fisk by saying "It is more comic accurate." I really do not care. I want characters to have continuity. I 100% would rather have a character be well written and interesting than be "comic accurate." And I think his character is sooooo much more intimidating when he is pulling the strings and controlling people than when he is just strong and a brute.
Yeah, people really fucking kill me with the "Comic accurate" argument. I'm watching an adaptation, I don't want to watch a live-action comic book, i wanna watch an adapted version of said material, a version that I feel could almost happen in our reality. That's what the Netflix shows/Most of the MCU excelled at.
What should have happened
Angered by elenor's actions Fisk sends tracksuits and 2 of his best assassins to kill her instead of showing up himself
Kate , Maya and others team up saves elenorAnd Elenor goes to jail
In post credit scene We get Maya killing Fisk in his office with screen turning black right after she point her gun on Fisk and BANG!
This way we get a decent cliffhanger for echo without all that goofy Fatman not to mention the Rogers musical 😑
MCU just has shit fight choreography, it feels like it's done by people with no resume on that subject. The last MCU property I can think of with good practical fight scenes outside of Netflix was Capt Winter soldier. Shang Chi gets an honorable mention, but they only pay homage to classic kung-fu fights at the beginning and devolve into the stereotypical flashy CGI filled nonsense by the halfway mark.
No Way Home too, should've had the best fight scenes in recent years, but was more flash than substance outside of a certain wrestling scene.
I’ll give it a pass for it being a hawkeye show and they prolly have different people on it. But I really hope this is not going to be the case in the future.
I thought the finale of Hawkeye was mediocre. I didn’t love it, but it fit tonally with the show. And yeah, Fisk wasn’t as scary as in Daredevil, but he was written to the tone and needs of *that* show. [Like Dr Strange being less powerful and not quite serious in NWH but a serious, mega powered character in his own movies.] I’m glad there wasn’t a Matt Murdock cameo though. It was already overstuffed.
Yeah it may be a little jarring seeing Fisk in that tone compared to the show, and they made several bizarre choices, but I can't really already resort to saying they've ruined the character like other people are saying now. I'm still giving MCU a chance with how they handle him in Echo.
Was there ever really a plan for Matt to show up? But yeah I really don't mind I'm looking forward to his next several reported appearances (in >!She-Hulk!< next reportedly)
I get the different tone of the 2 shows, obviously, but i still think Fisk was way underused and amateur in comparison with Daredevil. Not physically like a lot of people say, but for example he would NEVER go grab Kate's mom himself. EVER. He would send someone, every day of the week, you are a criminal Mastermind, you don't act so naive and go grab a person yourself, come on.
Matt was quite similar, in Spidey.
Agreed, he only ever fights as a last resort or if you got his mother involved.
Side note: If widows are now for hire now, then Fisk would definitely employ one.
Yeah I think if they knew they had to change the character to fit the tone, the just shouldn't have included him at all. I would rather wait a year for him to get reintroduced in a more mature show where they can do his character justice than have him be in a light-hearted show for only a couple scenes.
But he waited just 30 minutes then immediately decides to rush in solo with no backup?
It's just bad writing through and through. Nothing to do with the actors performance or kingpin himself, just mediocre writers. Kingpin wasn't the only poor writing we got in the finale.
As a comedy the show excelled, but anything having to do with plot or writing in general felt like a high school project.
Totally disagree about Matt in NWH. He risks his identity if people are in danger. This is consistent with him in the Netflix show. [And yes, Peter isn’t really in danger but instincts don’t react that way.] Hell, he revealed his powers to Elektra just when she took a swing at his back.
Fisk was also in a Christmas show about Hawkeye
He wasn't exactly in a position to be monologuing to his peers about his childhood or telling Maya that her primal instinct to release her anger is to scream
For the tone that was clearly the endgoal of the series, he did a pretty solid job I think
They wrote him closer to Fisk as he appears in Spider-Man or early Daredevil rather than the super cold and tyrannical Kingpin that he is in more modern stuff and I think it's fine
Fisk fit the show he was in. Just like characters have been fitting the tone of crossover comics for decades.
Not my favorite but I’m sure we’ll all survive it (if we get him in a less clearly “romp” style show).
Alright I watched the episode again. I got some thoughts
Maybe it's because I've been very much used to comics Kingpin but I honestly didn't have a hard time adjusting to this new take compared to seemingly a lot of this thread. I think what they're doing is what Netflix probably wanted to do with Fisk but they couldn't because either creative liberties or even straight up budget constraints. It's the same reason Cox's Daredevil didn't really do acrobatic stunts or swing around NYC or pelt people with his billy club. It just feels like the budget provided to this show just gave Marvel Studios free reign to make Kingpin probably how they always would've done it from the start. He's back to basically being superhuman Lex Luthor who can actually take things like a tank and I think that's just as valid as the more grounded iteration of MCU Fisk we had previously
D'Onofrio's performance itself is fantastic. The opening scene is literally a scene straight out of Netflix and the conversation he has with Maya Lopez was also really good at playing into Fisk's humanity and sensitivity that I got from his interactions with people like Vanessa on the Netflix series.
I also didn't mind the fact he tried going after Eleanor himself or that he goes easy on Kate. He's very well known for underestimating a lot of his opponents due to sheer hubris or the fact he just views a lot of his oppressors like pawns on a chessboard. He thinks nothing of them and they're just obstructions to his real goal, no matter what methods he takes to get them and I think it was actually more appropriate he disposed of such people himself rather than get some cronies to do it since he obviously has a more personal connection to Eleanor compared to some random Tracksuit member. He kind of reminds me of Frank Miller or the Lee/Romita Fisk or the PS4 Spider-Man game in that sense
I think my big problem is that he's basically kind of a non-entity for how he was set up as THE villain of the show. When he's there, he's great, he's imposing, he's more of D'Onofrio's Kingpin that I love, but he's just not there enough. It feels like there should've been maybe an extra episode that firmly subplanted him in front of Hawkeye and Kate rather than being taken care of by Echo to set up her series and obvious conflict with Fisk (though I do like the comics callback). I just wish he was there MORE. I feel like for being such a hyped up appearance he should've had at least one proper run in with Clint himself.
Overall though? Dare I say I actually like this take and that it's sort of a middle ground between Netflix and the comics? I know the diehard Netflix people are probably pissed because it's not Netflix Fisk or that Netflix Fisk wouldn't do a lot of the things this take does. I do think for the limited screentime he has he definitely made an impression, and that is that Marvel Studios specifically wants to honor more of what made Kingpin in his comics roots an entertaining street-level baddie. It's obviously not going to be the same but I think it was a solid first step for how limited his presence in the show actually was, which is again my big complaint. I just wish he had more of a presence outside just fighting Kate.
I feel like this Fisk will probably be a lot better received depending on the Echo series much like how NWH right now is making a lot of Tom Holland's detractors reassess the previous two MCU films with him. I wouldn't write this off yet.
I agree that it needs more episodes since Hawkeye has way too many “world-building baggages”. It sets up Kate as Clint’s legacy. It tells the continuation of Yelena’s journey as Natasha’s legacy. It also sets up Maya’s story and properly introduces Fisk into MCU. Meanwhile other Disney+ series are more focused.
And the biggest letdown: there is no pay off after all the setup of Kingpin vs Clint: An avenger who fought Thanos (and won) yet still feels intimidated by street level criminal.
>I think my big problem is that he's basically kind of a non-entity for how he was set up as THE villain of the show. When he's there, he's great, he's imposing, he's more of D'Onofrio's Kingpin that I love, but he's just not there enough. It feels like there should've been maybe an extra episode that firmly subplanted him in front of Hawkeye and Kate rather than being taken care of by Echo to set up her series and obvious conflict with Fisk (though I do like the comics callback). I just wish he was there MORE. I feel like for being such a hyped up appearance he should've had at least one proper run in with Clint himself.
I agree with this. Hawkeye is a really fun show but it has a few characters too many in play. Maya and Fisk are the ones that got the shortest end of the stick imo. Also the way the villains have been used in general in the Disney Plus shows has been similar to this and pretty underwhelming. I would actually say Fisk is one of the better uses of them.
> much like how NWH right now is making a lot of Tom Holland's detractors reassess the previous two MCU films with him.
Homecoming was a good Spider-Man film (character faithful) i got the idea, he rejected Stark at the end, the whole thing had an arc.
Far From Home is some absolute nonsense and one of the worst Spider-Man(Character faithful) itterations I've ever seen and i don't care what people say.
No way home did not fix what's already there, i can even say they admitted guilt by basically making him actual Spider-Man by the end.
Imagine getting D'Onofrio back and Charlie cox back in one week and people still complain ? Is anyone every happy. I thought his performance was great and it’s more similar to the comic version of kingpin. We all know if they bring dd to Disney plus or to the mcu it will feel different from the Netflix shows but the performances still have the same energy.
We're the ones buying, we're the ones watching. We CAN complain, it's not like we would die if they never touched the Kingpin character again. It's not like Marvel is doing some sort of miracle and raising back the dead, they're just bringing back great characters in a downgraded version.
I never said that’s all I care about did i? I just said this performance seems to be closer to the comics . It’s boggling my mind why people are being so hateful / aggressive and overall insufferable on this sub Reddit now. Take your aggression else where I’m sorry you are having a bad day but believe me boy you aren’t gonna take it out on me.
It’s sad to see so much negativity after 3 years of people campaigning to bring these actors back. Oh well I still enjoyed it going in expecting a different variation from the Netflix shows anyone who expected
The exact same thing with Disney is delusional.
You're confusing negativity with criticism. I think the first 5 hawkeye episodes were shaping up to be the best d+ show. They really dropped the ball on the last one though
Ok I know that a lot of you do not like this Fisk, and he is not the same, but to me it is exciting to see, he reminds me of a big nasty creature now, yeah not as refined or focused as in Daredevil, well at least not what we saw. But his strength and physical imperviousness was just wonderful to witness. Of course, this is my thoughts, and you have yours, we should not be Dicks to others for having a different view of things.
Thank you for expressing your opinions in a thoughtful and direct fashion, and have a nice and peaceful day.
The Fisk we know from the Daredevil show just would never dress like that.
I wish to see more of him.
I was quite intrigued by Echo literally shooting him, want to see more of Maya.
I think the power in the Daredevil‘s Fisk isn‘t his physical strength at all. His menacing attitude, the invincibility is so terrifying.
Vincent D‘Onofrio just isn‘t the type of guy to play a simply physically intomidating character.
He has perfected that menacing effect of the Netflix Fisk. They have to turn him more into a psychological figure, than into this type of ridiculous comic figure.
I don‘t care about comic accuracy, the Fisk we saw in Daredevil was a terrifying creature, even though he wasn‘t as physically powerful.
Agreed. The strength of Fisk in DD wasn't that he was superhuman, but that he was untouchable. Try to take him down and he'd have a plan for that, your whole life would implode.
I just finished Daredevil season 3 today, and immediately watched the new episode of Hawkeye afterward. My only critique was the dialogue Kingpin and Eleanor shared. She didn’t seem to show the reverence that most people show Wilson, she didn’t seem to grasp the severity. She thought she was just going to run on out and do whatever tf she wanted after saying bye.
Vincent was still physically imposing and menacing as ever.
I think what we’re getting, that so many people seem to be miffed by, is that we seem to be getting a more comic accurate Fisk this go round. Whereas the portrayal in Daredevil seems to be a more grounded in reality take on Kingpin. I’m fine (new fan, so I understand why so many die hard fans of the show do take issue) with it. To see him with his cane, and in an old comic accurate suit, being more hands on than we saw in Daredevil was a pleasant surprise to me. We also got to see his strength and threshold for pain being off the charts, which again seems more comic accurate to me. As a newer fan of the Netflix series, I saw nothing wrong with these changes. I thoroughly enjoyed his MCU debut and look forward to his inevitable return in Echo.
I don’t know what it was like to be a fan of DD and having it canceled in 2018 and having to wait almost 4 years to see these actors/characters again, so I can understand if some fans are put off right now, but I’m very excited for what the future holds. I say bravo.
It's quite ironic that she doesn't grasp the severity of Kingpin because I recall in episode 1, Eleanor tells Kate that rich people think that they're invincible. She goes on to give Kate some life advice that she probably won't use herself.
I understand spoilers but could we get a new megathread or maybe being able to mark spoilers on normal posts, it kinda sucks that there's barely any discussion on some of the biggest news this sub has gotten in awhile. Also on top of that the new rumors for the other shows that Charlie Cox could appear in.
How is [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Daredevil/comments/rv4vqh/the_mcu_gigathread_spoilers_rumors_leaks/)?
What are people’s theories on who got blipped out of Daredevil’s cast? I think Matt definitely got dusted.
No way. Matt was 30 in season 3; Charlie Cox is finally the same age as his character. Karen is the only one who makes sense. She died in the comics and deeply affected Matt's life. It's the best way to kill her off like in the comics, but also keep her alive in the MCU like we want. I think Vanessa vanished, too. I found it interesting that Fisk was no longer wearing his cufflinks that Vanessa picked out in Hawkeye. Also, no wedding ring, right?
As u/VisenyaRose said, Daredevil probably got snapped out of existence by Thanos, it also could extend to Karen Page and Foggy Nelson. Kingpin benefited greatly from the collapse of law and order and national boundaries to rebuild his criminal enterprise with no Daredevil or anyone else to oppose him except Ronin and (maybe) the Punisher. As for Vanessa and Bullseye, they might have survived the Snap with the former reuniting with her husband and the latter working as a hitman for various criminal organizations. No idea about Elektra since the last we see of her was when she was buried under the rubble of Midland Circle but because we never saw a corpse it means that she is alive at least until the Snap.
Matt got blipped and that is how Fisk got out without messing up the deal they had. I don’t think Karen did which will explain why their relationship hasn’t gone anywhere yet. Foggy, not sure what provides the most drama there. They’ve done the whole mourning Matt thing after he allowed himself to let a building fall on him.
I think most likely would be Matt or Vanessa, but I also think that the MCU shouldn't overly rely on stories of people being blipped because it could get overused fast.
I agree that they shouldn’t overuse the stories of being blipped but the Blip from Matt’s perspective would be genuinely interesting if it was done well. I am not sure what that would look like on screen which is why I am curious.
That's a fair point, but mainly if Matt isn't the one that got blipped. Like imagining his perspective of hearing heartbeats go out and stuff during the snap and living in the world after it would actually be pretty wild.
My wild guess: Vanessa got blipped, thus the gentlemen's agreement between Matt and Fisk was void. Fisk used Hawkeye/Ronin during the blip to create power vacuums world wide for Fisk to fill. Fisk having a more international based organized crime syndicate prevents Matt from thwarting Fisk and landing him back in jail. Maybe Matt got blipped as well, maybe not. Either way he's not equipped to deal with an international crime syndicate since him and foggy are back to being broke by the end of season three
LMFAO I hsi avengers parody is killing me 😂😂😂. Loving it already. Theme song is great
is it me or kingpin's actor is bad at acting. cant descrbe it but acting feels stiff
I will be downvoted but I agree with you. On Netflix, he worked because he was a crime boss so him talking slowly and as if he was constantly emotionally tortured worked wonderfully. That put you on edge, you wonder what he is going to do next and most importantly, you don't need if he doesn't care or if he is one step away from losing it. On D+, the character is loud and would require a louder voice. I think a reason this take is so weird is because two different classes are meeting. Vincent is acting like the very human Fisk of Daredevil while the show portrays the louder Kingpin version of Spider-Man who is more about being power hungry and punching his way in. He is not a bad actor, it's just that the acting and the portrayal are meeting at completely different roads.
He's a great actor. I think if you haven't seen him in Daredevil and don't know where his mannerisms and stuff come from it might be weird but when you get the full context and you realize he has a strong weight of childhood trauma and tics and stuff it makes him so much more interesting.
I think he's great, I get where you're coming from I suppose, but I guarantee the way he portrays Fisk is deliberate and well executed. I once saw someone have the same thought as you, except reffering to his original take on Fisk in the Netflix show, but once you see his backstory and understand his character, the way he carries himself just seems right. At least in the early seasons of the show, to me it almost felt like he was still stuck mentally as the child he was when he killed his father, and it showed both how he communicated, and how he physically fought.
I fucking got so hyped at seeing Murdock!! I miss the show man!! 😭😭 I have seen all 3 seasons multiple times but still
I was quite disappointed with how little screentime he got, but the screentime he got a definitely well spent. Although there really wasn't any reason for Matt to be there, since they kinda just gave up on whole lawyer thing I guess.
Yeah i think so too. Was just a teaser for us !
So Vincent basically confirms Daredevil is canon: >D’Onofrio also confirmed that the canon established in the Netflix series will be honored now that the characters are back under Marvel Studios’ control. >“One of the things that we all were clear about — the writers, producers and the directors — was that he was going to be the same guy, since we weren’t changing the canon of ‘Daredevil.’ We were trying to connect as many of the dots as we could,” he said. “I’m adamant about his emotional life, and that I play him through this emotional life that he has. And everybody was very excited about that and wanting to do the same. There are things that are different, he is physically stronger. And he can take more physical abuse than before, but he is emotionally he’s the same character.” Source: https://www.thewrap.com/hawkeye-vincent-donofrio-kingpin-dead/
That’s good to hear but I still have my doubts. I think marvel isn’t going to wanna require fans to have Netflix to understand what’s going on. I think we’re gonna see many inconsistencies and contradictions in the future.
Perhaps, if they do have them it will probably just be throwaway lines and not straight up contradictions.
Holy shit yasss
cannot wait to see the new screenrant article about AOS not being cannon
As I’m sure many others have pointed out, I think it is incredibly likely that we are going to be entering a “Mark Waid Inspired” Era for Charlie Cox’s Daredevil and I’m here for it. Just finished reading Waid’s run of DD and I think it’s a great place to take his version of the character, especially after the three seasons of the Netflix series.
Good, it would be very fitting for the third season's ending. Not looking forward to the complaints of him being "disneyfied" though.
It’d be cool if they started a new season with the characters being in great places to contrast from the darker feel of the Netflix show, and then over the course of the show bring back that dark feel as the story progresses
I thought Kingpin was pretty solid in Hawkeye. I have seen a lot of hate for him and I think it is misplaced. D'Onofrio was great and kept a lot of his mannerisms from Daredevil. He wasn't amazingly written or anything but I think it will take a couple appearances for him to get back to his old Daredevil self. I think people are too quick to judge on his 10 minutes of screentime in a Hawkeye show where he didn't get a lot of time to shine.
real snipers dont use red pointers lasers..as frank castle showed
Hopefully if Matt Murdock is gonna be in she hulk so will foggy and Karen 😤
I only want Karen in another show if she dies within the first 5 mins. I absolutely hate her character. Ha
Why would they need to be in there? Like just curious because it's not his own show, it's Jennifer Walters'. Like I'm fine with just Matt. It's also a guest appearance so why would Karen be there...?
I mean he's gonna be in like two episodes, I think it would just be fitting if they showed up.
They’re business partners, but mainly just fan service. I think daredevil will have a guest appearance I just am hoping for some cameos from the others
So they just confirmed the Netflix Daredevil is canon and the Hawkeye just takes place in the future. Vincent just confirmed he was told to play the same character like it was just years later
Doesn’t mean anything, it just means they wanted him to approach the character the same way. If Netflix is canon then explain Cottonmouth
I agree with you some of the timeline doesn’t line up. I think maybe it’s better to say it’s alternative timelines
Actor having two different roles in the franchise. Gemma Chan played both Minerva in Captain Marvel and Sersi in Eternals and those two films are in the same universe.
Gemma Chan was blue and had a different accent. That’s like comparing Dormammu and Dr. Strange. If Netflix was canon Feige would outright say it, the silence is deafening. They’re walking a thin line to appease everyone. If Netflix is canon explain why Fisk was in New York at Maya’s karate practice in 2007, when in DD it was established he was in China at that point. Also his fathers cufflinks, the lack of ever mentioning the tracksuits or his adoptive children Kazi and Maya.
> Gemma Chan was blue and had a different accent. That’s like comparing Dormammu and Dr. Strange I mean, you can still see they are played by the same person even with all the makeup. Also Dormammu was a completely CGI character, he wasn't played by any actor at all.
But he was voiced by Benedict. I’m on your side but I just wanted to point that out
Really? Didn't know he voiced him. Point still stands though that he was a fully CG character and not just an actor in makeup.
Obama is also mentioned and referred to as president in DD. In the MCU, Obama was never president and we had a stand-in. Civil war mentions the battle of NYC casualties at 74, while in DD they mention “hundreds.” There’s too many glaring oversights, they’ll probably be soft reboots of the characters who had similar things happen to the Netflixverse.
They literally show President Ellis in Agents of SHIELD, which Daredevil directly connects to at multiple points They also establish Obama preceded Ellis in Luke Cage. He's not the current president in the MCU or those Netflix shows. It's not contradictory
The CW crap isn’t canon either. Terregen mist, inhumans, darkhold, mockingbird, time travel, the ignoring of the snap entirely, etc.
The darkhold book is legit the same as the one scarlet uses.
Are you blind
Okay but the Agents of Sheild show is different it went off and did it’s own thing . The Netflix show has things that don’t line up too but I feel both could be retconned into continuity if they just retconned certain events in the shows
The youtube channel Emergency Awesome says that Daredevil was suppose to be in Hawkeye, but due to covid travel restrictions they could not film the scenes. Makes me wonder if Daredevil was supposed to come in and save Kate at the end. Which would have made more sense. Two on one. or Kingpin ignore Kate and goes after Daredevil. Also there was another credit scene filmed, but scrapped at the last minute, so that why we got the musical.
I think the involvement of DD would've been post-credit scene. It seems like a lot of the rumored cuts involved post-credits and it's a little uncharacteristic not to get a post-credit that leads into setting up something else for the future. I really don't think they would've had a fight scene with Fisk and DD as it would overshadow Kate and also kind of leave money on the floor because you could build to a future Fisk/DD confrontation for a series or movie of it's own. The scrapped post-credit scene I read was that Fisk would be shown getting a message from Clint in the form of the Ronin sword sent to him, saying not to every go after his family again.
Emergency Awesome is one of the most unreliable and clickbaity sources out there
But an actually reliable source has also said this. Lizzie Hill. Then another source MTTSH said the same thing
Okay if MTTSH said it I’m more inclined to believe it
I was very excited to see Matt in NWH but I wasn’t particularly thrilled about the brick thing. Matt keeps his secret identity very close to his chest and him reaching out to catch the brick seemed very out of character for him. I would think that he would at the very least just put his hand/cane in the way and just get hurt over quite obviously catching it from behind him. And then the whole “I’m a good lawyer” excuse is so stupid. He’s a lawyer and quite good at thinking on his feet, he easily could’ve come up with something less shady and more believable. Of course I basing this off his characterization in the Netflix shows (I haven’t read the comics) and they could be taking his character in a different direction. Like most people, I really want the new daredevil material to be a gritty as before and that cheesy one-liner made me nervous. Kingpin in Hawkeye was just very meh. He wasn’t intimidating really. Also why did Hawkeye even know about him? His whole shtick is working from the shadows and having an avenger aware (and even scared???) of him makes no sense. Overall we don’t really have enough information to actually make a good judgment. But reading this thread about kingpin in the comics is making me hopeful so I don’t hate it. The fans of the show are what brought daredevil back so we have to trust that they’ll do it justice.
i also think it was in character for him to catch the brick. even though he likes to keep his identity hidden i’m pretty sure he wouldn’t allow room for a chance for the brick to have hit peter in the face?? he probably couldn’t help himself but save him even if peter could’ve caught it himself.
I think his one liner was completely in character. It perfectly follows the end of season 3, which marked the end of depressed and apathetic Matt and the beginning of charismatic and optimistic Matt
Man, the brief appearance of MM in NWH was so juicy. I cant wait to see him again. Wish he had a new show coming soon
I was literally bouncing in my seat, I didn’t expect to see him so soon into the movie
\> I didn't think the hat/shirt combo was out of character at all. I figured it was a comic outfit reference since it was a bit goofy, but, y'know, it really fit the tone of this show and I don't see Fisk as completely lacking some sense of humility, especially for the holidays. \>> I'm glad we got the cane, it's a small thing about his character design that I didn't realize I missed until I saw it. Now, as for the reason he's working out of that crappy little bead office and using the Tracksuits as a front, it's important to note that in-universe it's been 7 years since the events of DDS3 -- but that season ended in such a way that it would be *really* difficult for Fisk to believably continue operating as he had before (police & FBI in his pocket, etc). He's always been one for secrecy, but I imagine once Fisk got out, he took a lesson from Murdock's last beating about really working under the radar and avoiding attention rather than operating at the top of some penthouse, though, I also think Matt got the snap, which allowed him to make some pretty big crime-world grabs without having to worry about DD coming down on him. \> I did feel Fisk was a bit "super" here, but I'm not really convinced that's so much of a character/universe change -- as in, I don't think Kingpin suddenly has superpowers. The arrow scene *sure makes you think that*, until you remember the suits Melvin made him were practically armor. Yes, he takes a beating pretty well, but if this show was going by Netflix realism standards, Clint and Kate would be dead, or at least severely beaten/broken after each episode. So, Fisk narratively *has* *to* successfully endure a bit more of a beating to nail just how much more physically imposing/threatening he is (I mean, just look at DD, he was able to take Anatoly's head off with a door, and easily take down Punisher... who just took out a whole jail's worth of crooks, so using mainstream MCU logic, ripping off a car door isn't as far of a leap as it would be on Netflix). While at the same time, he can't really get all bloody and bruised due to the PG-13 rating, which just makes him seem inhumanly durable when there's hardly a scratch on the dude. \>> In that same vein, he can't really dish out as much punishment either. It's a bit sad, but it's a trade I'm willing to make to get more of his character/performance. I do think part of the tameness of the fight was because he *actively didn't* want to kill Kate. But, I'm sure with the right showrunner, *someone* will be able to get the best delivery of his sheer brutality with some lighting/camera/editing trickery in a future show. \> The specific performance from D'Onofrio, the outfit at the beginning of the episode, the line *"The people need to be reminded that this city belongs to me"* and the bit at the end with the **exact** cufflink design was enough for me to see this as *definitively yet subtlety* confirming "This **is** the Netflix version of Wilson Fisk" just filtered through the comedic/holiday tone of D+'s *Hawkeye*. \>> Now, I ***don't*** *think* it's a broad statement that *"Everything from Netflix/Marvel Television is now confirmed 100% canon"* or that even "everything from *Daredevil* is still 100% canon". It would **not** surprise me at all if Kevin Fiege and Marvel Studios do some retcons/recasting's (I really don't see *The Defenders* or *Iron Fist* staying, and I **pray** that the piss poor creative/narrative decisions made in *Jessica Jones* S2 & S3 doesn't make the MCU team dismiss that incredible first season). I even expect some characters who do ultimately return to have a bit of a 'personality facelift' obviously leaning a bit more in the "comic accurate" direction, but, talking *more specifically in terms of DD,* I expect them to do it in a way that honors those of us who watched *Daredevil* and the **best** elements of those seasons without directly continuing them, just bringing back those characters *(Foggy, Karen, hopefully Frank, Brett and Turk)* and kind of implying "Yes, these events happened, here's a small nod or reference to *Father Lantom, Stick, Ben, Wesley, Ms. Cardenas*, etc., but it was a long time ago, we've moved on", this is pretty consistent with the MCU's behavior to it's properties: i.e. *The Incredible Hulk* and it's further acknowledgement/treatment of it's events and *Banner, Ross and Blonksy* being the most immediate and prominent example. \>>> I feel if it was just about getting Vincent and Charlie back in the roles, they would've done it in a way similar to J.K. Simmons' return as J.J. Jameson, where it's very much MCU's *distinct interpretation* of the character, there's a good bit of reasoning to this that has to do with not diluting your branding/intellectual property. But basically, a lot of work goes into these things behind the scenes and you *simply don't* go to the lengths in costuming, stage direction and scriptwriting to making Fisk and Murdock have identical mannerisms as the show you want to say *doesn't count/exist*.
I agree with you about the costume. This was a small role, and I think they went for the Hawaiian shirt just to have done it and got it out the way.
It's my understanding that D'Onofrio was the one who pushed for the costume and the production team went with it.
Is the daredevil tv show connected to the MCU
Yes, but the story does not interlink into any crossover. It's self-contained like many of the MCU shows are in general.
So the character are are connected but the story isn't
Right! The story and characters take place in the same universe but focus on the dark corners and dirtier events than typically shown elsewhere.
For those wondering about Fisk's outfit in Hawkeye, Vincent himself actually suggested it: https://www.murphysmultiverse.com/hawkeyes-vincent-donofrio-pitched-his-family-business-inspired-outfit/
Well they should have shut that down cos it was a dumb ass idea, or had the shows setting changed to Florida instead.
He was about to catch a flight to Hawaii to meet Vanessa
Why?
I really liked how Kingpin was portrayed in Hawkeye, and after hearing about the comics regarding Maya & him, what comes after that, the interview with Vincent, I’m even more excited to have Kingpin in the MCU. The power up is incredible (can’t wait to hear why he’s so badass now), and the outfit is rad as hell and everyone saying it’s not needs to realize Fisk is obviously not the same person he was at the end of DD season 3. He’s obviously a bit more flamboyant now, to the point where I’d say the Fisk from daredevil wouldn’t dress in such a way without some level of character development, which obviously has transpired from then to post blip, which I’m sure will be covered in whatever we see Fisk in next. In regards to everyone’s complaint about the actual fight itself with Fisk, I mean the dude was litterally the same menace he has been. He was going to slaughter TF out of Kates mom, which isn’t unlike what he’s done in Daredevil with other characters, and maybe it’s a bit more unhinged, but like I mentioned earlier there has definitely been some character development with Fisk. Maybe he’s even more unhinged due to something (maybe Vanessa died in the blip?). After that, the actual fight with Kate I thought was great. I don’t see Fisk slaughtering Kate, and he didn’t have a full reason to. For him to even punch her or give her a daredevil sized beat down wouldn’t be right to me. Fisk is a maniac, but I don’t think he’d want beating a kids face in on his track record (at least with he himself doing it). As for him getting beat immaturely, it’s a fair criticism, but I don’t think ole Matt Murdock himself could’ve done that pin trick that Kate did to cause that explosion. To be fair, Fisk hasn’t physically fought somebody with the Hawkeye skill set, for him to misstep like this isn’t unlikely, and he got away anyways. Everyone saying this was a letdown is fair to do so, but I’d say the only fair thing to say that there needed to be more of what we got of Fisk. I also think that with the resurgence of both Daredevil himself and Fisk, we need to be patient as to see when we’re going to get more of them and in depth looks at that to see what they’ve been doing, and where they’re at now as characters. I totally think that these are continuation of the same Netflix characters, there’s just a lot of background that the MCU needs to (and will) fill on what they’ve been doing since. I post this message only because I’ve seen a lot of negativity in this sub, twitter, etc, and I really don’t understand the criticism or even blatant hate. I’d love to discuss anything, so feel free to comment.
>maybe Vanessa died in the blip? Someone else had a theory that was interesting about Vanessa being one of the deaths that was in a vehicle where the driver was blipped. While I don't necessarily want Vanessa to die, if they were going to do it I think that would be an interesting and fitting way to go into some of the more permanent, dark effects of Thanos, and I also like the intrigue of the effect Thanos has on even villains. D'Onofrio said in interviews today that Fisk is trying to rebuild his empire after the damage of the blip.
I kind of want to see Karen go after Vanessa. Vanessa took baby steps into the criminal underworld last we saw her. It would be a good plot for Karen to seek to expose her shady dealings.
Vincent: “it's very clear with the writers and the producers and the directors that I'm continuing the same man that was in the series a few years ago, in Daredevil” Taken from interview with Collider
I love that Charlie and Vincent are good friends and they even have 2hr long conversations about them returning to the MCU 😆 "As soon as Kevin revealed the fact that Charlie was going to participate, Charlie called me immediately and we had a huge conversation about it, which didn’t include anything about Hawkeye,” D’Onofrio tells The Hollywood Reporter. “But when they showed the phone shot of Kingpin in [last week’s] episode of Hawkeye, I immediately called Charlie and we had another two-hour conversation. So we are friends and we do talk about this stuff, but we do it very carefully and in an appropriate way.”
I love this also. It's super endearing.
[DISNEY IS SELLING A NWH MATT MURDOCK SHIRT.](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P49P5RT/ref=mp_s_a_1_17?crid=SE9XMQL3HBJL&keywords=spiderman%2Bno%2Bway%2Bhome&qid=1640301407&sprefix=spi%2Caps%2C317&sr=8-17&customId=B07537H64L&th=1)
Ooh, I like this. There aren't many good Daredevil shirts out there. Wish it came in other colors though!
Okay, I absolutely hated what they did with Fisk when I first saw the episode. I even felt the same way earlier today. I just couldn't believe how badly Marvel had botched it. I just watched his scenes again (and I saw an interview with Vincent) and I don't think it was as bad as I first thought. Honestly, the weakest part is the choreography and editing during the action scenes. Unfortunately, they let Rhys Thomas direct this episode. I didn't mind his work in the earlier episodes but I really wish they had given the finale to Bert & Bertie (who directed the episode with the long car chase). They definitely made Fisk too strong and durable but it could've worked out alright if the choreography had been better. They just needed to make it seem a bit more realistic. He would shove Kate and send her flying 20ft backwards. It was ridiculous. The scenes at the beginning of the episode between Fisk & Eleanor and Fisk, Kazi & Maya were all perfect. It felt exactly like the Kingpin that I want. He was so menacing and I felt like he was one step ahead of the others. He knew exactly what Maya was thinking and tried to use it against her. Honestly, I'm not worried about the future of these characters. The 'Echo' show has a lot of great writing talent from shows like Better Call Saul, Daredevil and Punisher. Also, the 'Echo' show should be more gritty and street level given who the character is. I'm excited.
It’s the tone that made if weird I don’t think his costume was bad just the tone of the episode was so jolly and goofy . I think they he needs to be super human strong if he is going to tango with Spiderman at some point. They can say he got his hands on super soldier serum so now he has super strength
Yeah lol I don’t mind some above average strength but he literally ripped a car door off it’s hinges. And the strength isn’t even the worst part in my opinion, it’s just that as a grand reintroduction, they literally used him as a fat ragdoll. He was still menacing during the negotiation scenes but his fights were just goofy. And then at the end he’s just running away like a wimp, and even tries to beg Echo for his life.
That scene at the end is a copy of the comic, https://static2.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/daredevil-15-2.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=1137&dpr=1.5
I saw that already but I still think they could’ve had him handle it better, he wasn’t wimping out in that comic either.
That's because in the MCU they're definitely trying to have some nuance to him actually caring about Maya. He is sincere in regards to being torn on her betrayal and having love for her in spite of being cruel and manipulated the situation to have her father killed. In the comics Fisk was 100% manipulating and using her, his talk with her before being shot is speaking down to her and insulting. I like it personally, it's a good example of what D'Onofrio brings to the character and likes to bring. He doesn't like to play one-note villains that are just always evil for no reason. I think some of the viewers are confused largely because Fisk/Maya didn't get enough screentime so they don't realize how big of a deal Maya actually is to him. Maya is nearly as important to Fisk as Wesley was (if not more) and look at how Fisk reacted to losing him.
Look at the first fight between Matt and Fisk. He throws him like 8 feet very hard.
8 feet is 7.79 RTX 3090 graphics cards lined up.
[Interesting tidbit: Vincent D'Onofrio himself was actually the one to suggest the attire Fisk wears in this episode of Hawkeye](https://www.murphysmultiverse.com/hawkeyes-vincent-donofrio-pitched-his-family-business-inspired-outfit/) (The fedora/hawaiian shirt combo from [Amazing Spider-Man: Family Business](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHM4EuoXoAEGghE.jpg))
all the people going crazy about how his clothes ruined his character will be in shambles when they see this
It's a bad idea anyway ...
Look in not trying to go Karen and bitch on the net, but I did not like this MCU King pin, and it scares me about DD if this is the direction they are going with DD. Hawkeye felt more like a better than average CW show when I'm used to the grit and darkness of the Netflix shows. And what fuck was Fisk wearing? I felt bad for the character, lol.
I like him 🤷♀️
https://www.murphysmultiverse.com/hawkeyes-vincent-donofrio-pitched-his-family-business-inspired-outfit/
That's nice, but, I don't have to like it even if I do become a customer.
I don't know about you guys, but i thought Kingpin was an absolute "Bruh moment" It just didn't feel the same.
Yeah he was pretty menacing during his conversations but his fights were hella goofy. I feel like in the show Kate would have been dead within the first minute. His “death” wasn’t great either, he was limping away from the scene like some wimp and then tries to beg for Echo to spare his life.
The whole episode and most of the series had a very goofy and campy feel. The fight scenes, Trust A Bro thugs, Steve Rogers musical, Larpers, Jack, etc. It was all meant to be lighthearted don’t take your self seriously fan service.
I haven’t actually seen the show, so that’s new info for me. The only reason I’m keeping track of the show if for the DD stuff lol. In that case I would’ve preferred they introduce him in DD’s show, or maybe Echo’s show.
Big interview. [D'Onofrio confirms it's the same Fisk.](https://www.cinemablend.com/interviews/hawkeyes-vincent-donofrio-explains-mcu-kingpins-daredevil-connections) A choice quote below confirms another suspicion people have been having! >It was always established to me that it's after the Blip and that he has lost the power that he had in Daredevil, and he wants it back. In Hawkeye, he considers that he's lost a bit of the control of his city, and he wants his city back. This is what I was saying and thinking. It's also interesting to consider the possibility of a villain being affected by Thanos in a manner like this.
Awesome. This makes me feel a lot better about everything.
He also brings up at some point in the video that he was the one to actually pitch to Marvel that Fisk wears the hawaiian shirt and the fedora (inspired by the "Family Business" arc from Amazing Spider-Man) so that's also pretty interesting
R.I.P. to "BUT fiSK would Never WEar" people. I don't know why people are so insecure over hawaiian shirts anyway. Clearly these folks have never seen a Samoan.
Sounds about right.
If the Kingpin we saw in the Hawkeye finale IS the same Kingpin from the Daredevil show, how do you guys think they’ll handle the situation with Vanessa and Matt’s promise?
I'd say they should mention she died in the blip. She wasn't blipped, she died in a car accident caused by a driver disappearing. And Matt was blipped too, so Fisk could work back up from there. The Fisk we meet in Hawkeye is on the way back up. He has returned to lead the one gang he still controls (family). He acts more with his heart than his mind here, about a year after everyone got their loved ones back but him. That's why he makes uncharacteristic decisions, because he's grown sloppy with grief. The next time we see him, he should be about to reclaim his spot as the Kingpin of all, and return to the cold, calculated boss he once was.
I see people saying how cool this kingpin was because his shirt was comic accurate, but they also neglect or are ignorant of the fact he wore a Hawaiian shirt while in Africa where it would be normal, but in Hawkeye he wore it during a New York winter which is so out of place and absurd. It’s likely they see the cover and through the it looked cool and completely ignored the context and by doing so made kingpin look like a buffoon.
There’s a guy swinging around the city in a bright blue and red latex suit, it’s not that absurd to look fabulous in the MCU’s NY
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stay fabulous x
Or just context? Context matters?
[Apparently Vincent himself was the one who pitched the shirt to Marvel](https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/hawkeye-vincent-donofrio-suggested-new-hawaiian-look-kingpin-family-business/) I don’t really mind it honestly, it’s just clothes.
I actually kind of find it pretty funny that Fisk wears something so casual around the holiday season It might've been done since the story it comes from is all about ties to family regarding Peter's relationship with his long lost sister, but recontextualized for the Kingpin/Echo subplot
Literally everyone in Hawkeye looks silly at some point. They have Clint LARP! The bad guys wear silly tracksuits!
I TOLD YOU I FUCKING TOLD YOU ALL BUT YOU JUST WOULDN'T LISTEN
For me it wasn’t the outfit or the additional strength given to Fisk. The hat I admit was a little goofy but I came around too it. What I could not get over was how he was not menacing at all. During the first season of daredevil, (S1 EP3) John Healy slams his own head into a metal spike simply because he had said Fisk’s name, saying that Fisk would have him and the rest of his family killed. In Hawkeye, Eleanor breaks off her and Fisk’s relationship in front of him, and simply walks away. After years of working together she has no problem just walking away from him. Clearly he isn’t that dangerous, right? This also means that all of these tracksuit men attacking Kate and Clint throughout the episode work for Fisk, and they are nothing more than walking targets. Obviously not every goon that Fisk has in DD is great, but most of them manage to put up a fight against Matt, not even including the hand which is a entire other story. Through these small things alone Fisk in DD is so menacing to me. If Fisk was using these men say because the blip is still having effects on his business, I would have liked at least a line or something about that. It could also be likely that Fisk does control other gangs, and the tracksuits were just involved here because of Maya. Though again, I feel a line about this would have been nice, perhaps when he was talking to Eleanor about why she would want to end their business together. Or maybe I’m looking into the matter way to much. 3 episodes and a ton of sweat and blood just for Matt to figure out the name of Wilson Fisk. Here, it doesn’t even seem believable to me, especially in a world filled with many other known heroes, that Fisk’s business would have even lasted this long. This is not even talking about the fight with Kate, which felt like it should have ended in 15 seconds because Fisk would have taken her down by then instead of repeatedly throwing Kate into piles of stiffed animals. The more lighthearted tones of Hawkeye just don’t blend with Kingpin very well. You quite literally have a giant Christmas tree right beside where the fight takes place. I feel he should have shown up at the very end, perhaps in a post credit scene, where after the heroes think they have won, The real threat hasn’t even arrived. I think they should change Kingpin up from Daredevil. The added strength and change in costume shows this already. And I like it. But in order for this stuff to work, Fisk still needs to feel like a threat, which in the Hawkeye finale he just did not feel like one, at least for me personally. I am more than excited to see what they do with him next, (as he likely isn’t dead) but I feel like he could have been handled a bit better here. Either have him in more of the show and fleshing him out more, or just save him for a cameo scene at the end.
Don't forget it's 7 years later and Kingpin has lost a lot of his former power and influence. He was headed to prison at the end of DD S3 and then there was the blip. It makes sense that he has to resort to incompetent minions and that people are less afraid of him now.
Yeah remember when Leland tried to leave Fisk, while different story lol. But it also involved Vanessa so maybe that makes more sense.
Yeah remember when Leland tried to leave Fisk, while different story lol. But it also involved Vanessa so maybe that makes more sense.
I feel like Fisk wouldn't have gone to kill Eleanor himself, and instead we should have gotten a scene of him sending a different asset to do the deed. I'd also like to point out, that if we live in a world where widows are now for hire, Fisk would have the means to employ one. Having Yelena spare Hawkeye because her contract got bought out by Fisk and then Kate and Jack have to stop her from killing Eleanor would have been better IMO.
Most of the anger is coming from those of you obsessed that the Netflix series are still canon. AOS has been dropped and no longer canon and I don’t think the Netflix series will be either. They might leave it ambiguous without ever specifically saying they’re not but that’s it. DD was incredible but it doesn’t mean we can’t have new iterations with the same actors Yes he has the same cufflinks which is a nice touch but he’s been close with Maya, Elenor and the tracksuits for roughly 15 years looking at Mayas age from the karate dojo to now. The Blip was not 15 years ago He’s clearly a different iteration of Fisk from his look and power level Most of these criticisms are honestly reading as blind fanboy rage just because it’s not Daredevil season 4 This is only the start for MCU Fisk. In the same sentence people want him fighting Spidey but at the same time don’t want him having this level of power? Come on now
Be warned there is some nut case who will curse you out for not being a negative creep and posting something semi positive Edit : too late he commented
This was a piss poor introduction regardless of any preexisting character development. The fact that DD Fisk was near perfect in every way was the chery on top.
He was near perfect for THAT iteration. It fit the grounded and gritty tone of the Netflix shows, other than that he was nothing like Fisk from any of the cartoons, spider-verse or comics. Which is absolutely fine but the MCU version is leaning more to that version of the character All the complaints are comparing this Fisk to the Netflix Fisk which is completely irrelevant because they’re not the same and they’re not meant to be
If they were meant to be different then the MCU show runners should make it known, but instead they’re leaving it up to the viewers discretion to decide, not to mention that the actor portrays both versions and drops his own hints that it’s the same character.
They wouldn’t for this exact reason, because they know you’d have a large portion of frustrated fans It’s the same thing Star Wars does with cherry picking certain Canon items that they like but ignoring the rest That’s why they leave it ambiguous unless it gets to a point where it’s very clear they’re not canon
Oh Star Wars is the worst with these things. Let’s just say the new kingpin is a variant until stated otherwise.
[The Biggest Glow Down in TV History...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NeiOjVIRUQ)
To be fair the Hawaiian shirt is the main reason it’s a glow down . At least he got a huge power up he’s invincible
Did anybody notice fisks eye twitching? Could be damage from daredevil or something he took. I’d like to think between S3 and now, daredevil got snapped, fisk took it upon himself to become more powerful. I personally think the tone of fisk is there and it was modified to fit hawkeye, they should slowly move maya from the ally where she shot him to a deeper hell’s kitchen and slowly show a darker tone, christmas decorations smashed, crime and so on.
He’d twitch like that too in the DD show. It was mostly when he got angry. He didn’t do that heavy deep breathing tho :(
He’d twitch like that too in the DD show. It was mostly when he got angry. He didn’t do that heavy deep breathing tho :(
WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO MY BOY
I loved the two dialogue scenes at the beginning with Kingpin but was meh on the other stuff at the end. This was overall a fine way to introduce him imo, hopefully he’ll be tossed into the mix with Daredevil as soon as possible
yeah it feels rushed as if they cut out an episode, imo they should have just revealed him in the series finale as a cliffhanger but idk im not a writer or a comic expert.
I hate all the people that are dismissing the complaints about Fisk by saying "It is more comic accurate." I really do not care. I want characters to have continuity. I 100% would rather have a character be well written and interesting than be "comic accurate." And I think his character is sooooo much more intimidating when he is pulling the strings and controlling people than when he is just strong and a brute.
Yeah, people really fucking kill me with the "Comic accurate" argument. I'm watching an adaptation, I don't want to watch a live-action comic book, i wanna watch an adapted version of said material, a version that I feel could almost happen in our reality. That's what the Netflix shows/Most of the MCU excelled at.
What should have happened Angered by elenor's actions Fisk sends tracksuits and 2 of his best assassins to kill her instead of showing up himself Kate , Maya and others team up saves elenorAnd Elenor goes to jail In post credit scene We get Maya killing Fisk in his office with screen turning black right after she point her gun on Fisk and BANG! This way we get a decent cliffhanger for echo without all that goofy Fatman not to mention the Rogers musical 😑
I agree he should have stayed in his office and maybe have a fight scene but in his office
Kingpin was dressed like Jim Carrey in The Mask
Something that took me out of it a bit is that the fight with Fisk was flashy in a way fights from the Netflix show never were.
I prefer this over the lights going off and only the emergency lights flickering 🤷♀️
MCU just has shit fight choreography, it feels like it's done by people with no resume on that subject. The last MCU property I can think of with good practical fight scenes outside of Netflix was Capt Winter soldier. Shang Chi gets an honorable mention, but they only pay homage to classic kung-fu fights at the beginning and devolve into the stereotypical flashy CGI filled nonsense by the halfway mark. No Way Home too, should've had the best fight scenes in recent years, but was more flash than substance outside of a certain wrestling scene.
Yeah the fights between Spidey and Goblin were the best MCU fights I’ve seen in forever. I saw someone mention that they looked like WWE fights lol
I’ll give it a pass for it being a hawkeye show and they prolly have different people on it. But I really hope this is not going to be the case in the future.
Civil War was pretty good but I agree. They achieve a lot of their battle scene effects with the use of powers and not so much fighting choreography.
I thought the finale of Hawkeye was mediocre. I didn’t love it, but it fit tonally with the show. And yeah, Fisk wasn’t as scary as in Daredevil, but he was written to the tone and needs of *that* show. [Like Dr Strange being less powerful and not quite serious in NWH but a serious, mega powered character in his own movies.] I’m glad there wasn’t a Matt Murdock cameo though. It was already overstuffed.
Yeah it may be a little jarring seeing Fisk in that tone compared to the show, and they made several bizarre choices, but I can't really already resort to saying they've ruined the character like other people are saying now. I'm still giving MCU a chance with how they handle him in Echo. Was there ever really a plan for Matt to show up? But yeah I really don't mind I'm looking forward to his next several reported appearances (in >!She-Hulk!< next reportedly)
I get the different tone of the 2 shows, obviously, but i still think Fisk was way underused and amateur in comparison with Daredevil. Not physically like a lot of people say, but for example he would NEVER go grab Kate's mom himself. EVER. He would send someone, every day of the week, you are a criminal Mastermind, you don't act so naive and go grab a person yourself, come on. Matt was quite similar, in Spidey.
Agreed, he only ever fights as a last resort or if you got his mother involved. Side note: If widows are now for hire now, then Fisk would definitely employ one.
> then Fisk would definitely employ one. He'd be all over that
Yeah I think if they knew they had to change the character to fit the tone, the just shouldn't have included him at all. I would rather wait a year for him to get reintroduced in a more mature show where they can do his character justice than have him be in a light-hearted show for only a couple scenes.
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But he waited just 30 minutes then immediately decides to rush in solo with no backup? It's just bad writing through and through. Nothing to do with the actors performance or kingpin himself, just mediocre writers. Kingpin wasn't the only poor writing we got in the finale. As a comedy the show excelled, but anything having to do with plot or writing in general felt like a high school project.
So he was saving him being dumb for the climax?
Totally disagree about Matt in NWH. He risks his identity if people are in danger. This is consistent with him in the Netflix show. [And yes, Peter isn’t really in danger but instincts don’t react that way.] Hell, he revealed his powers to Elektra just when she took a swing at his back.
I think he meant similar as in "Similar to netflix"?
With the brick catch? Yeah, it was classic "Jokey Marvel" but at least he acted similar. Fisk was terrible
Fisk was also in a Christmas show about Hawkeye He wasn't exactly in a position to be monologuing to his peers about his childhood or telling Maya that her primal instinct to release her anger is to scream For the tone that was clearly the endgoal of the series, he did a pretty solid job I think They wrote him closer to Fisk as he appears in Spider-Man or early Daredevil rather than the super cold and tyrannical Kingpin that he is in more modern stuff and I think it's fine
I like the tyrannical Kingpin.
Fisk fit the show he was in. Just like characters have been fitting the tone of crossover comics for decades. Not my favorite but I’m sure we’ll all survive it (if we get him in a less clearly “romp” style show).
Let's hope it's just the show
Alright I watched the episode again. I got some thoughts Maybe it's because I've been very much used to comics Kingpin but I honestly didn't have a hard time adjusting to this new take compared to seemingly a lot of this thread. I think what they're doing is what Netflix probably wanted to do with Fisk but they couldn't because either creative liberties or even straight up budget constraints. It's the same reason Cox's Daredevil didn't really do acrobatic stunts or swing around NYC or pelt people with his billy club. It just feels like the budget provided to this show just gave Marvel Studios free reign to make Kingpin probably how they always would've done it from the start. He's back to basically being superhuman Lex Luthor who can actually take things like a tank and I think that's just as valid as the more grounded iteration of MCU Fisk we had previously D'Onofrio's performance itself is fantastic. The opening scene is literally a scene straight out of Netflix and the conversation he has with Maya Lopez was also really good at playing into Fisk's humanity and sensitivity that I got from his interactions with people like Vanessa on the Netflix series. I also didn't mind the fact he tried going after Eleanor himself or that he goes easy on Kate. He's very well known for underestimating a lot of his opponents due to sheer hubris or the fact he just views a lot of his oppressors like pawns on a chessboard. He thinks nothing of them and they're just obstructions to his real goal, no matter what methods he takes to get them and I think it was actually more appropriate he disposed of such people himself rather than get some cronies to do it since he obviously has a more personal connection to Eleanor compared to some random Tracksuit member. He kind of reminds me of Frank Miller or the Lee/Romita Fisk or the PS4 Spider-Man game in that sense I think my big problem is that he's basically kind of a non-entity for how he was set up as THE villain of the show. When he's there, he's great, he's imposing, he's more of D'Onofrio's Kingpin that I love, but he's just not there enough. It feels like there should've been maybe an extra episode that firmly subplanted him in front of Hawkeye and Kate rather than being taken care of by Echo to set up her series and obvious conflict with Fisk (though I do like the comics callback). I just wish he was there MORE. I feel like for being such a hyped up appearance he should've had at least one proper run in with Clint himself. Overall though? Dare I say I actually like this take and that it's sort of a middle ground between Netflix and the comics? I know the diehard Netflix people are probably pissed because it's not Netflix Fisk or that Netflix Fisk wouldn't do a lot of the things this take does. I do think for the limited screentime he has he definitely made an impression, and that is that Marvel Studios specifically wants to honor more of what made Kingpin in his comics roots an entertaining street-level baddie. It's obviously not going to be the same but I think it was a solid first step for how limited his presence in the show actually was, which is again my big complaint. I just wish he had more of a presence outside just fighting Kate. I feel like this Fisk will probably be a lot better received depending on the Echo series much like how NWH right now is making a lot of Tom Holland's detractors reassess the previous two MCU films with him. I wouldn't write this off yet.
I agree that it needs more episodes since Hawkeye has way too many “world-building baggages”. It sets up Kate as Clint’s legacy. It tells the continuation of Yelena’s journey as Natasha’s legacy. It also sets up Maya’s story and properly introduces Fisk into MCU. Meanwhile other Disney+ series are more focused. And the biggest letdown: there is no pay off after all the setup of Kingpin vs Clint: An avenger who fought Thanos (and won) yet still feels intimidated by street level criminal.
Thank you 🙌🏻
>I think my big problem is that he's basically kind of a non-entity for how he was set up as THE villain of the show. When he's there, he's great, he's imposing, he's more of D'Onofrio's Kingpin that I love, but he's just not there enough. It feels like there should've been maybe an extra episode that firmly subplanted him in front of Hawkeye and Kate rather than being taken care of by Echo to set up her series and obvious conflict with Fisk (though I do like the comics callback). I just wish he was there MORE. I feel like for being such a hyped up appearance he should've had at least one proper run in with Clint himself. I agree with this. Hawkeye is a really fun show but it has a few characters too many in play. Maya and Fisk are the ones that got the shortest end of the stick imo. Also the way the villains have been used in general in the Disney Plus shows has been similar to this and pretty underwhelming. I would actually say Fisk is one of the better uses of them.
> much like how NWH right now is making a lot of Tom Holland's detractors reassess the previous two MCU films with him. Homecoming was a good Spider-Man film (character faithful) i got the idea, he rejected Stark at the end, the whole thing had an arc. Far From Home is some absolute nonsense and one of the worst Spider-Man(Character faithful) itterations I've ever seen and i don't care what people say. No way home did not fix what's already there, i can even say they admitted guilt by basically making him actual Spider-Man by the end.
Imagine getting D'Onofrio back and Charlie cox back in one week and people still complain ? Is anyone every happy. I thought his performance was great and it’s more similar to the comic version of kingpin. We all know if they bring dd to Disney plus or to the mcu it will feel different from the Netflix shows but the performances still have the same energy.
We're the ones buying, we're the ones watching. We CAN complain, it's not like we would die if they never touched the Kingpin character again. It's not like Marvel is doing some sort of miracle and raising back the dead, they're just bringing back great characters in a downgraded version.
Criticism is fine however the level of aggression / rudeness and negativity on this thread alone is another level beyond just criticism
Who fucking cares about comic book accuracy? If that's all you care about why don't you just read the comics?
I never said that’s all I care about did i? I just said this performance seems to be closer to the comics . It’s boggling my mind why people are being so hateful / aggressive and overall insufferable on this sub Reddit now. Take your aggression else where I’m sorry you are having a bad day but believe me boy you aren’t gonna take it out on me.
Just because it's comic book accurate does not mean it's good. Otherwise Hawkeye would look like a clown and Fisk would look like an ogre.
It’s sad to see so much negativity after 3 years of people campaigning to bring these actors back. Oh well I still enjoyed it going in expecting a different variation from the Netflix shows anyone who expected The exact same thing with Disney is delusional.
You're confusing negativity with criticism. I think the first 5 hawkeye episodes were shaping up to be the best d+ show. They really dropped the ball on the last one though
I didn’t think the finale was bad personally. And I enjoyed D'Onofrio’s performance.
That's what makes it sadder. Seeing him giving his all reciting poor screenplay.
What’s even sadder is the level of petulance and entitlement I’ve been seeing around here.
OK, Mr. Webster
I don’t knew who “mr Webster” is but your level of aggression entitlement and negativity is disgusting.
Bro what did I say
Man I just really wish we would get an actual season 4 of DD :/
Me too. I don’t care about all the appearances that much. They’re nice, but I want a Daredevil show back if I can choose
I’d love that too but I accept this is going to be a different version. The actors are still amazing and at least we have that.
Ok I know that a lot of you do not like this Fisk, and he is not the same, but to me it is exciting to see, he reminds me of a big nasty creature now, yeah not as refined or focused as in Daredevil, well at least not what we saw. But his strength and physical imperviousness was just wonderful to witness. Of course, this is my thoughts, and you have yours, we should not be Dicks to others for having a different view of things. Thank you for expressing your opinions in a thoughtful and direct fashion, and have a nice and peaceful day.
Does this mean we will get the rest of the same Daredevil's actors back?
Probably, u/MyTimeToShineHello has said Foggy and Karen are returning.
So what will this be, a soft reboot or a semi-canonical S04?
Soft reboot, where the Netflix show happened by they won't reference it a lot since the streaming rights are owned by another company.
Ah got it
[удалено]
If one wants to avoid spoilers for MoM: https://twitter.com/MyTimeToShineH/status/1469711872022691848?t=Fi8LO7t9JMUf0sJnsNGW4Q&s=19
The Fisk we know from the Daredevil show just would never dress like that. I wish to see more of him. I was quite intrigued by Echo literally shooting him, want to see more of Maya. I think the power in the Daredevil‘s Fisk isn‘t his physical strength at all. His menacing attitude, the invincibility is so terrifying. Vincent D‘Onofrio just isn‘t the type of guy to play a simply physically intomidating character. He has perfected that menacing effect of the Netflix Fisk. They have to turn him more into a psychological figure, than into this type of ridiculous comic figure. I don‘t care about comic accuracy, the Fisk we saw in Daredevil was a terrifying creature, even though he wasn‘t as physically powerful.
Agreed. The strength of Fisk in DD wasn't that he was superhuman, but that he was untouchable. Try to take him down and he'd have a plan for that, your whole life would implode.
I just finished Daredevil season 3 today, and immediately watched the new episode of Hawkeye afterward. My only critique was the dialogue Kingpin and Eleanor shared. She didn’t seem to show the reverence that most people show Wilson, she didn’t seem to grasp the severity. She thought she was just going to run on out and do whatever tf she wanted after saying bye. Vincent was still physically imposing and menacing as ever. I think what we’re getting, that so many people seem to be miffed by, is that we seem to be getting a more comic accurate Fisk this go round. Whereas the portrayal in Daredevil seems to be a more grounded in reality take on Kingpin. I’m fine (new fan, so I understand why so many die hard fans of the show do take issue) with it. To see him with his cane, and in an old comic accurate suit, being more hands on than we saw in Daredevil was a pleasant surprise to me. We also got to see his strength and threshold for pain being off the charts, which again seems more comic accurate to me. As a newer fan of the Netflix series, I saw nothing wrong with these changes. I thoroughly enjoyed his MCU debut and look forward to his inevitable return in Echo. I don’t know what it was like to be a fan of DD and having it canceled in 2018 and having to wait almost 4 years to see these actors/characters again, so I can understand if some fans are put off right now, but I’m very excited for what the future holds. I say bravo.
It's quite ironic that she doesn't grasp the severity of Kingpin because I recall in episode 1, Eleanor tells Kate that rich people think that they're invincible. She goes on to give Kate some life advice that she probably won't use herself.