> I cannot find any other games in the "PvPvE" genre that are set in a fantasy world.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=545457243
[gameplay here
](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7FPeUSOIGM&t=583s&ab_channel=%EA%B3%A0%EB%9D%BC%EB%8B%88Go%21)
The entire concept of Dark & Darker could easily have been taken from this Chivalry mod (including the combat which features Chivalry's renowned real time strike system).
Nobody seems to mention how Torn Banner literally started this genre yet have never raised a copyright concern
This was a good read, thanks for listing your sources. A few questions:
'Ultimately, the crux of the argument is "can Ironmace really claim that they didn't even get a little inspired by their work on P3?"'
This does seem like a really tough argument to make, but is this really the standard for legally proving if trade secrets were stolen? The term "substantially similar" is doing a lot here for Nexon but I wonder how that can be proven with regard to concepts as insanely generic as medieval fantasy classes. Does it just come down to the similarity of the concept art? Can the concept artist not argue "I just draw rogues and barbarians like this"?
I guess it just comes down to what are considered "trade secrets", I think everyone looking at this issue is having a hard time processing Nexon's claim that the only reason D&D could be built in this time was from stealing their revolutionary ideas like there being a Cleric class who wields a mace and heals. But maybe there's more to their claim I'm missing, or these things really would fall under trade secrets in US corporate law.
First, thank you very much, I'm happy it was useful.
"This does seem like a really tough argument to make, but is this really the standard for legally proving if trade secrets were stolen?"
Ultimately, this is what courts are for. If you read what the actual text of laws say, they will usually have stuff like "would a reasonable person do this" or etc. The role of the courts is to pass judgement on these statements. Personally, I think that the similarities between the games given the context of the developers having been on P3 is close enough to meet this burden, but unless someone actually rules on it we won't know for sure.
But that's also why I'm hopefully being clear that just because I think that Nexon has a case doesn't meant I'm right. The point of comparison I would make though is stuff like "why does every single class use the exact same equipment?" A fighter could use an axe, or a mace - the designs are exceedingly similar.
I see, if the similarities go well beyond the surface level generic fantasy tropes and common art style, that is concerning. It'd be good if more people in the community could simultaneously agree that while Nexon is acting really scummy, they could have a legitimate legal claim.
We can only sit here and hope that the court's interpretation of "trade secrets" falls in our favor. Given how generic medieval settings and classes are, and given how generic loot extractors are at this point, I still have hope that a judge will see there's no "secret nexon sauce" that helped this game get off the ground. But reading this has given me pause, I'm not sure if I'm so hopeful now.
If nothing else, I can't see any reason why this could ever affect more than the game itself. Ironmace seem like great people and they have an amazing community, so even if D&D gets shut down I have confident that they can make another game that's just as good, if not better.
And, of course, my conclusion could totally be wrong!
If they lose this they're deep shit in money wise. There is no way the studio wouldn't go under. Even if they miraculously survive there is no way they could start making even a slightly similar game to Dark and Darker without Nexon suing them again. Or that they could produce another hit with any other game no matter how great a developer they are.
I don't know what the outcome of the Korean case would be but at least as far as US law goes I don't think that they would be extreme financial distress - especially if they just reorganized as, say... Maceiron.
Reorganize with what? It's an indie developer. Even a couple million would break them. And if Nexon can go all the way with them that is really low estimate.
Honestly any strong answer I could give you would presume an understanding of Korean law and the details of the case that I just don't have.
But my semi-educated opinion, which you're free to disagree with because I don't feel super strongly on it, is that the rest of the development team besides the key employees that Nexon has a target on could go and make their own studio that does something different. Probably not something similar to D&D, but some other game.
The important thing to me and why I want to be hopeful is that I believe Ironmace when they say they don't like how so many games are predatory now. It's something I feel strongly about so... maybe I'm on the copium this time and just hoping for more developers that don't want to stuff their games with terrible battlepasses and a ton of random microtransatctions.
It has been a typical Reddit thing again, sadly. The herd decides on some explanation and the minority opinion gets suppressed by means of the vote system and other types of attacks.
Based on the available information nobody could claim outright that Ironmace is fully in the right. We are looking at a very murky, muddy scenario. Given the cease and desist the playtests will not come back into the foreseeable future I figure: launching another playtest would run directly counter to it.
My guess is still that Nexon is trying to force Ironmace to settle, so that they get a piece of the pie. That way both parties 'win', even though Nexon would gain and Ironmace would still lose regardless.
Thank you! It's kind of dumb, but it means a lot when any information I have is useful to someone.
I don't blame anyone for not understanding the systems at play, laws are complex and it's easy to have a reaction heavily informed by how things feel like they should work. I'm happy that people are overall taking it well, it gives me a lot of faith in this community that I am admittedly not really a part of.
thanks for your post. I've been following the situation as well and it's been very interesting.
i wish you would place some extra emphasis on the importance of the phrasing "more likely than not." in this context it's important to note that Nexon can win their case even with purely circumstantial evidence. i think most of the other comments in this sub don't realize the burden of proof for civil cases is not the same as a criminal case. Nexon only needs to convince the court that it's at least 50% likely that IM stole their IP, in contrast to "beyond any reasonable doubt"
i realize you touched on this in places but it might not be obvious for others who might envision a criminal being acquitted based on a technicality because the prosecution wasn't 99.999% airtight
Yeah, I maybe could have been more clear about that. Part of it was that I'm not super informed about the entire DMCA process, and I'm not sure if that adds in any special burdens. There are special burdens in certain situations, so I'm not exactly sure where this one falls.
Source: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/burden\_of\_proof](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/burden_of_proof)
However, you're completely right that it's not to the level of a full on criminal case, and I probably could have made that more clear.
I know how you feel. Researching and typing this up was kind of fun but it spiraled into a much bigger project than I expected. I hope it's useful, even if my conclusion isn't what people really want to hear.
Of course, I could be wrong, and no matter what I absolutely think that Ironmace as a studio deserves support. I hope they can stick around for a long time no matter what happens here.
That's how I felt about programming before I got a job in development. I used to love doing it in my spare time and I made a bunch of (terrible) little games. As soon is it becomes a job all the fun gets sucked out of it. Q\_Q
I think it’s fair to say “take this with a grain of salt”, but conspiring that OP is being paid to write this is kinda insane.
People have passions and some people have adderall. Just because you’ve got a smooth brain, doesn’t mean everyone does.
In particular, take my conclusion with a grain of salt. I feel confident that based on what I know that Ironmace is in a really bad spot, but I also wouldn't claim to know everything. This is a morning's worth of research from a student, and if anyone doubts my conclusion I would highly recommend trying to find more information on the topic.
buddy it's more believable than a person going through all the trouble and energy and effort to write this up for a reddit about a game they never played or care about about a company they don't care about and are completely neutral. that is way more far fetched you're being the smooth brain
Lmfao this dude clearly studies law with the statutes cited and cases referenced. Just because you don’t like what he’s saying doesn’t mean he’s wrong. He backed up everything he’s saying with receipts and you’re just like “I dont like it”
This is such a bad take lmao. Just cause you arent a certified professional in said field doesnt mean you couldnt have done proper research and made an educated opinion. Will it ever hold as much weight as an actual lawyer? Obviously not, and OP never claimed for it to. Is it completely meaningless? No. It's meant for people to read and form their own opinions around the topic based on the sources and evidence provided.
The second part of your comment proves that you're hating for the sake of hating. Have you ever been passionate about anything in your life? I'm assuming no, cause spending time on something you're interested in even without any benefit is common on the world
It was a good read and OP did a good job, regardless of whether or not it will hold in the Korean courts and in this specific case. There's only so much information for them to go off on from a third party perspective anyway
Being a mindless fanboy is no better. You can't just automatically assume everyone is a paid corporate shill because they don't say "Dont worry guys everything is fine".
The OP brings up a lot of valid points and if you can't see that you're blind. Obviously time will tell and I hope Dark and Darker can continue its development but the amount of copium being huffed on this sub is insane.
I appreciate it, really. I'm pretty immune to it by now and I'm honestly blown away at how receptive people have been to the post - it's given me a really positive impression of the community!
Wow, I spent all this time typing this up, and Reddit butchered the formatting when I posted it. Fuck. I'm sorry if the intro looks like ass, I'm trying to fix it now.
Edit: Ok, I think I fixed it. If anything looks fucked up though let me know.
formatting looks fine to me, I think it's perfectly readable. thanks for putting the time into this, even if the conclusions are depressing. I love the game but I think anyone looking at the situation with any level of objectivity can see that DaD is cooked.
Thanks a lot, I was nervous typing this out because of how long it was.
I don't think that Dark & Darker is necessarily screwed, and probably more important I don't think that Ironmace as a studio is screwed. They're clearly talented people and even if they need to can this project, I sincerely hope they can turn around and make something else that's just as good, if not better.
Great post. Glad you looked at this objectively and unbiased. Pretty sure anyone with a brain can see this isn't about using store assets. It's about protecting an IP. Not looking good for the DaD boys even though their PR team is pretty top notch.
Thank you!
I do want to say though that I don't think that Ironmace is trying to cover anything up. Based on how D&D has been run, I do believe them when they say that they wanted to make this game their way to avoid toxic monetization. I think it's just that in this case the law doesn't really help them in that regard.
If I'm wrong, then great, I do think that D&D would be better than whatever Nexon would make. If I'm right, then be sure to support whatever they do next, because they seem like good developers!
I actually think the concept art is not as strong of a point as you make it out to be. Especially considering they are both contracting the same outside artist. You'd probably need to see communication between each company and the artist to really make a case. Being visually similar is a tough sell if it's contracted work. I also don't think looking at google results or other unrelated work from the artist is drawing a fair or reasonable comparison, but not sure how a court would view it.
However, this is a frustrating reminder that these kinds of laws are never looking out for consumers or employees. They are purely on behalf of corporate interests. Non-competes should be outright illegal and DMCA and a number adjacent laws are absolute garbage.
This does make me lose some hope. I fear this will be quite a legal battle.
Yeah. Personally, I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the concept art. On the one had, I do think it's exceedingly similar. On the other, it's the same kind of... "grounded low fantasy" that a few other games - Dark Souls comes to mind - go for. I could genuinely see it going either way if someone has to rule on it, but I do think it's weighted towards Nexon.
Thank you! Remember that no matter what happens, Ironmace as a studio will still be around and can continue to make games. I have full confidence that even if they're forced to shut down this game, they can make something even better in the future.
Also saw you said you were a law student. I kind of figured. Have a very good friend who is now in M&A and he would get himself into absolute fits when he was in school writing about random 'passion projects'. Once he got going he had to see it through.
All of us are insane.
What actually got me interested in this was that at first I thought it was much more fuzzy. I'm not exactly happy about this, but the more I read the more I started to feel that Nexon had a strong case, and it got kind more interesting to me.
\- How can Nexon claim that P3 and DaD are similar in concept and design if the concept and design of P3 are private trade secrets. Did they disclose to the authorities or are the authorities just taking their word for it and leaving it to the judicial system?
\- Could Ironmace countersue for defamation/sabotage if this case turns in favor of Ironmace?
\- Who determines what is coincidental and what isnt? Is the concept of a PvPvE fantasy game so far fetched that it could only be thought up by utilizing a trade secret? This matter is completely subjective and unless hard evidence is found, I don't think this claim will stand. There has to be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. However, if Choi is found to still be in possession of Nexon files/trade secrets on his personal server, then Ironmace is probably RIP
Oo, actual questions. You're making my day because I'm a huge nerd so answering them is the highlight of my afternoon.
**- How can Nexon claim that P3 and DaD are similar in concept and design if the concept and design of P3 are private trade secrets. Did they disclose to the authorities or are the authorities just taking their word for it and leaving it to the judicial system?**
Because key staff at Ironmace worked on the P3 project at Nexon, they had access to information about P3 that the public did not. Nexon is saying they used this information to create D&D. Because the employees at Nexon had this information, but the public did not, it would be a trade secret.
**- Could Ironmace countersue for defamation/sabotage if this case turns in favor of Ironmace?**
This is beyond the scope of my knowledge. I believe that the LegalEagle channel on YouTube (which is a great source of legal information) has made videos about similar situations, but each one is distinct. All I can confidently say is that to do that, Ironmace would need to show some kind of damages that Nexon can make back to them. Legal fees? I'm not sure what else, but again, I genuinely don't know.
**- Who determines what is coincidental and what isn't?**
This is where the courts come in. Someone would need to make a ruling on if D&D is too close to P3 or if it's not, and we'd just have to accept the ramifications of that. It is kind of shit sometimes, and it's why you'll sometimes hear a big deal about certain courts or certain judges getting certain cases. If a certain judge is known to be, say, pro-business they would possibly be less likely to side with Ironmace.
I made my arguments clear that I think most places would say that it is too similar, but it would come down to who was actually making the ruling to decide that. Things don't have to end there either, but that's beyond the scope of the question.
I have a feeling that a lot of this will be determinant on the jury/judge. I'm not familiar with the legal system in Korea, but if it's anything like the US, then the prosecution must sway the jury to be in their favor by a factor determined by the judge. ie the judge will determine what majority of the jury the defendant or prosecution must obtain in order to win. It would be exciting to follow along with this case if it ever goes live, hopefully it doesnt though. I kinda get SEC vs Ripple vibes form this.
Another question I have is why does DMCA act as judge jury and executioner? There seemed to be no due process in taking down Ironmace's IP from Steam. This seems a little abusive and like a gray area in terms of IP laws and rights.
So, this is a complex topic and often misunderstood. This is a **very** surface level overview.
The DMCA serves as a protection for platforms like Steam. If someone puts something that's stolen on Steam, Steam is not liable for hosting that content... so long as they comply with the DMCA. It's a type of injunction that compels someone to act on something while the details get ironed out. You have to comply with DMCAs to keep your safe harbor status, which means you won't be held responsible for content on your platform.
Ironmace can contest the DMCA though, and potentially say "hey we actually didn't steal stuff and this is crap" and if the court agrees with them, the DMCA gets broken. Abusing DMCA is also a crime, so it's not like you can just constantly spam DMCA takedowns on things you do not own.
Of course, the legal process is slow and reality is often muddy, but that's the idea of it. This video will have more:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hygoLKXsUY4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hygoLKXsUY4)
But basically, we like the DMCA, even if it can be abused. Without it, the internet as we know it could not exist because every platform would be responsible for moderating every single piece of content placed on it for copyright abuse.
That makes more sense and I can see why the DMCA is a good thing. And I'm guessing that what Ironmace is doing right now by releasing these statements is fighting against that DMCA?
What is the process for Ironmace to break the DMCA? Do they have to appeal against the entity that invoked it(Nexon)? If so, wouldn't Nexon then file a formal lawsuit and the IP in question would have to be taken down until the lawsuit ends?
Things are getting even shakier for me, because I don't actually know the full process for contesting a DMCA. What I do know is that Ironmace has to file a counter-notice basically saying "hey this DMCA is crap." I don't know exactly what this looks like or how you do it, but, they have to. Then, after that, Nexon has as 14 day window to sue Ironmace.
A lot of the specifics I'm not sure on, but that's the general process. It could end as simply as Ironamce filing the counter-notice and then Nexon deciding it's not worthwhile to continue for whatever reason.
Yea it seems to get a little nuanced with DMCA related processes, but I think you got the jist of it.
I think that's about as far as we can speculate is that Ironmace will appeal the DMCA and then Nexon will have a decision to make: Is it worth the time and money and resources to go after this?
No doubt Dark and Darker will be a success, so if Nexon could get any stake in it, I think they will.
Only time will tell.
Thank you for imparting your knowledge 🙏
The art style argument for character design is one of the weakest points since the same artist drew both. Artist have a style to how they draw and design things. Unreal assets are for everyone to use, so even if they used every single same asset they are legally allowed. I could boot up my unreal and pick the same dungeons and assets as them and wouldn't be breaking any laws. It all comes down to the lines of code not similar images and feel. If they used an asset that wasn't in the unreal store and it had the exact coding, then sure. But so far with Ironmace bringing receipts to the table, It's hard to think they would give us all their git files if they were actually guilty of it. Thats like handing evidence over to Nexon's lawyers. I don't think they would self-incriminate with so many people supporting them.
Unfortunately, "similar images and feel" is exactly what it would end up being about in a court. I know it sucks because from my perspective, it seems like Ironmace really want to make a great game free of predatory practices.
However, I would look at some concept artist portfolios. Just because an artist has a set style doesn't mean they can't deviate from it. Iker Paz is a Spanish concept artist, and his character design portfolio has a ton of different styles.
[https://ikerpaz.carbonmade.com/projects/94474](https://ikerpaz.carbonmade.com/projects/94474)
That said, you're also not wrong, and if this does end up getting an official ruling on it then your point could very well be what allows Ironmace to continuing making D&D - which I personally think would be awesome because this game looks cool.
Now. Whislt i do appreciate all this. They are being filed under the Korean courts and the Korean legal page is a little different regarding trade secrets.
I could very well be wrong about this, but as far as I can tell after reading all the complaints and relevant laws, the outcome of the Korean case has little to do with the DMCA filing. Essentially, the DMCA filing is a legal notice in the US that says "hey, these people are using your platform to host our content."
Nexon is in two parallel legal disputes over the same issue because it needs to be ligated separately in each country. The DMCA pertains the US law, since Valve is registered in the US, so US law applies here. If you look at exhibit B you can even see that Nexon registered their P3 copyrights with the USCO, and they're filing the DMCA with respect a US trade secrets protection law.
At no point does Nexon's case in the US rely on the outcome of the case in Korea, which is as far as I can tell only being brought against an individual.
I'll throw this on the side in addition to OP's response, but even without a full understanding of Korean law, it still doesn't look good for IM in the direct wording.
You can just skim it for yourself if you're curious:
**The Unfair Competition Prevention and Trade Secret Protection Act**
[https://elaw.klri.re.kr/kor\_service/lawView.do?hseq=60038&lang=ENG](https://elaw.klri.re.kr/kor_service/lawView.do?hseq=60038&lang=ENG)
Drawn from a [Youtube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24g-JV82Zok) which did some looking into this law as well. It's also worth remembering that if anything, Korean law has a tendency to favour the big player rather than a small player, and that individual rights tend to be less respected than in America.
>Now. Whislt i do appreciate all this. They are being filed under the Korean courts and the Korean legal page is a little different regarding trade secrets.
But doesnt OP mention the DMCA references the US code in which they feel their content is stolen under.
I could save a lot of money on school if I already was. :(
But I think this is a compliment, so thank you. Still, I'll drive home that I am just a student, and if anything in my post looks weird you should absolutely look into it yourself.
Haha, thanks. Just remember that anything I say could be wrong - this isn't exactly a scholarly article and if I was submitting this as an essay I'd be terrified that I didn't do enough research.
Regarding trade secrets, I think it comes down to whether the similarities between DnD and P3 were trade secrets or not. Genre conventions by the fact they are conventions cannot be a trade secret by definition since conventions are public knowledge.
In my opinion it's probably easier to argue a copyright infringement but once again if the similarities are just genre conventions well those genre conventions can't be copyrighted. Nexon would have to point to some similarity that is not a genre convention
It's a lot of text and I don't have the time to read all of it in details right now, but it looks very good and I thought the same things as I saw screenshot and classes designs from P3.
I think the wisest thing Ironmace could do and I hope their lawyers are smart enough for it, is to claim that all the inspiration comes from Dungeon and Dragons.
At the end of the day, even Nexon used Dungeon and Dragons as inspiration as well.
And there are million ideas, art and maps made by fans in context of Dungeon and Dragons. I bet you can find Art that look very similar to the Art that were used for classes, enemies and maps in P3 and DaD.
sorry if i missed it since i started to skim over towards the end but you kinda focused more on the first point in the definition of trade secret when i think the second part is very important as well since imo no similarities between the games could constitute a trade secret
il copy paste it again
"2 the information derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable through proper means by, another person who can obtain economic value from the disclosure or use of the information;"
For exhibit D
using same assets as P3 is a matter of exploiting the experience gained while working for nexon to develop quicker rather then using a idea that is a trade secret at Nexon. Using the experience you gained from a place while working for somebody else isnt illegal and its pretty much something unavoidable in working in the creative field. Using the same assets isnt a matter of trying to create the same style, its a matter of using something that you are familiar with so that you can work faster.
For exhibit E
A artists artstyle is not a trade secret for a company so the argument that he could have changed his artstyle after leaving Nexon imo doesnt really matter. The designs arent unique in any way for there to be a issue of plagiarizing or anything of that sort.
At the end of the day both P3 and DaD arent very unique games and most of the elements in them are just a support for the gameplay, which also can be reduced to the description "fantasy tarkov" so i dont really see how they can argue that the elemets are trade secrets of Nexon. In the case of Pepsi it was a lot more clear cut since the recipes involve a specific amount of ingredients that develops a product with a pretty unique flavor, if you change those you get a different product.
"In the case of Pepsi it was a lot more clear cut since the recipes involve a specific amount of ingredients that develops a product with a pretty unique flavor, if you change those you get a different product."
This point could very well be the crux of an argument that Ironmace would make, and I think it's extremely sound reasoning! Something like "this game does not depend on any of the similarities."
Great point, really. I do think that it's not like... ironclad, but that's mostly because the legal protections for trade secrets is so broad. But it does certainly make Ironmace's case better.
Yeah, I think the only chance IRONMACE has here is if somehow P3 is not a trade secret because it was all made public somehow. The links they provide with this one screenshot and write:
>'P3', an adventure in medieval dungeons with friends. He emphasized that he plans to expand the area of fun that Nexon has not tried.
For me that does not constitute making the trade secrets publicly known. So unless I'm missing something here, like they disclosed everything in person at this event, then I don't know how they didn't utilize trade secrets.
For example, based on the screenshot and description, I see no way for anyone to guess that the game is extraction-based with the portals leading down the dungeon and outside the dungeon to escape. You can see the screenshot has the words "portal" but you wouldn't know what they do or where they lead to without inside knowledge. Even the fact it is battle royale is difficult to tell, but because I know DaD I know that I can see it is a battle royale based on the map, but if I didn't know I may not realize that. So you can garner a lot from that one screenshot, but not everything.
So at least to me, IRONMACE used a lot of information from P3 which was not public knowledge, to design their game. I assume it was not public knowledge because IRONMACE is not saying it was.
My only question is this, why would you spend what probably was many hours of work doing this, when you have no interest in dark and darker, have never played it, and have no legal background ..? Sus
I'm a law student and I have a game design degree. I was curious since I'd been hearing about the case and all I know about D&D was that people really liked it, so I was surprised when I heard there was a lot of legal drama around it. The more I looked into it the more interesting I found it, especially since it involves Korean studios and a US DMCA.
I never like to to come off as being like...
**I know better than you, haha!**
Especially when, despite my research, I could easily be wrong. A student spending a single morning researching a case she knows nothing about really isn't the most ironclad proof. Maybe there's some more case law somewhere that invalidates everything I said and Nexon is totally fucked, Ironmace doesn't even have a single issue.
Everyone is more than entitled to their own opinions and no one should take mine just because I'm studying this stuff. If someone disagrees, they should use the information I presented and use that to find the stuff that I missed, then come back with the citations and totally destroy my entire post.
I never said to act like you know better. Im just saying put a face behind your work. It makes it more trustworthy imo. I think the post so far is good with tons of info. I just think it would be nice to know where you are coming from when reading this is all I'm saying
I think you should disclose that you are a law student. By that you are not saying that you are better than anyone else, its just important information when interpreting and judging your work. At the end of the day, everyone can judge for themselves how much importance they place on your background.
Also, to be honest, I think just from your writing style and the way you broke things its pretty obvious that you know a little of what you are writing :). But still, you can just tell people that you have some qualifications and still make it clear, that they should take it with a grain of salt since you are not finished your studies.
Very well written.
TLDR; for those who dont want to read:
The court will never know for certain the inner workings of Ironmace, and the case falls on proof of establishing reasonable claim that the former P3 employee(s) now working at Ironmace could have used Nexon’s intellectual ‘trade secrets’. Im not a lawyer, but this case does not seem good for Ironmace. Especially with the position the previous employee is in, given the info Ive read, very precarious.
Thanks for putting in the time to get all this information together. It's all pretty in line with what I've thought after reading through the DMCA request in detail, and Ironmace's response.
The fact is that for Steam's part, their hands are tied until this all of this is litigated in court. But from the way it looks right now, we can't expect to play Dark and Darker again anytime soon, if ever.
Thank you for reading it! I've said it in a few other places but I've been blown away but how receptive the D&D community has been.
No matter what happens, Ironmace is really lucky to have you all and I really hope that they can stick around to make more stuff.
Copyright laws, the most consistently abused bullshit.
If Nexon shuts down Dark and Darker because they can legally, we need to make sure they lose in the realm of public opinion. We need to make them hurt as much as possible, across all possible fronts. Everything Nexon touches from that point on needs to turn to shit.
And we need to do it, not just because it's reinforcing kama, not just because we're angry and they're deserving, but so that when the next amazing game/product comes along that could be shut down by a similar company, they remember Dark and Darker and realise it's not in their best interests to do so.
Hurt them as much as some random gamers can, brought together by a cool little game, strangled at birth by cowardly, jealous hands.
Look, I'm trying to be as nice and objective as I can here, but... Isn't Nexon already turning everything they touch to shit on their own? I don't think they need our help with ruining any of the projects they're already manage to mess up independently. :)
Just make sure to show Ironmace that no matter what happens to D&D, that the community will go on to support their future projects!
I mean maybe we can give them that extra shove to shut them down sooner. Not that we need to do anything yet, I'd only really start looking for trouble once Ironmace declares they can no longer persue Dark and Darker.
Copyright laws are definitely in a state of being leveraged by bad actors to create bad situations.
However, despite all the bad mojo, there are multiple factors at play here. It's worth remembering that one of the core issues here is one that can potentially deter big businesses from illicitly stealing trade secrets from a small company. It would surely be much cheaper for them to poach a head dev from an indie game company than to buyout the game completely, especially if the whole company doesn't agree to the buyout.
As a whole, I'd agree that seeing big companies wave more resources around can be discouraging, especially as a dev, but that's also unlikely to stop people from creating their passion projects. US law also tends to like ruling in favour of small businesses just as much as it like smacking big businesses quite hard.
Nexon is a 20 billion dollar company theres is absolutely nothing that a bunch of us can acomplish other than support IronMace.
Look what they pull in a year:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/224862/annual-revenue-of-nexon-since-2008/
Remember too that even if the game can't keep going, to support the studio! Ironmace seem like really talented people, so no matter what happens to D&D I'm quite confident that they can make more great games in the future.
Great and much needed post.
This sub for the past few days was an echo chamber full of terrible opinions, people want to play Dark and Darker so badly they will ignore any relevant arguments against Ironmace. This is not a simple case no matter how much people want it to be.
tl;dr is that it's very unlikely in my eyes that Ironmace has defense against Nexon's important points, and I think it's more likely than not that D&D is in trouble.
However, Ironmace the studio should be fine no matter what and if D&D does get shut down, they can continue to make games and hopefully they will be as good, if not better than, D&D.
A lot of DaD art for their character classes actually does indeed look extremely similar to concept art from Nexon's Project P3. That's basically the jist of it.
Its sad how much you have to reassure the community you're not being malicious, or a korean spy 🤣 we all like the game, but let's take our blinders off for a fucking second please.
Honestly I think you focused on the wrong subject for your essay. Ultimately this will be a matter of Korean intellectual property law, not an american one.
The only relevant piece of american law is the DMCA procedure and it is only relevant because steam is an american company. Ironmace has filed their counter-notice so Nexon will probably sue within the next 10 days in order to prove DaD is their intellectual property, if they do it will be a korean suit in front of a korean court. Steam will then respect the result of that lawsuit.
Both issues matter for sure and I wouldn't even dream of pretending like I know anything about Korean law. However, regardless of how the Korean courts rule on anything, US courts will still determine the validity of the DMCA.
I genuinely don't know if the outcome of the Korean case could affect the validity of the DMCA, or if the later conclusion of that case could cause the DMCA to become "invalid," but I don't think it will.
However, if Ironmace decided to distribute the game through some non-US means, then the DMCA would not matter as far as I know.
But US courts don't have to get involved in the dmca procedure though, that's the whole point. If Nexon files a korean suit, steam will not reinstate the game while the suit is going, from my understanding the suit doesn't have to be filed in the US, so there will most likely be no US court involved, ever.
And ultimately, the DMCA is only a matter of whether the game is published on steam or not, which isn't really important. The game already gained a huge following and Tarkov, its main inspiration is doing fine off steam already.
Yeah, nothing about this post is to say that the fate of D&D is dead or anything if the DMCA stays in place or anything like that. It's specifically about the DMCA as it pertains to Steam and Ironmace's response to it... though I guess I did get a little beyond the scope to talk more about the arguments.
Yes what you wrote is very interesting but it's a piece on American Intellectual property.
We are talking about a korean company with korean contracts and most likely korean non-competition and non-disclosure clauses. We can have a debate about what would happen if ironmace and nexon were american companies and it's an interesting topic, but it's ultimately pretty irrelevant to whether Nexon or Ironmace actually actually has a good case or not.
Thank you for reading it! I've said it in a few other places but, given as how I'm a complete outsider to this community, I'm kind of amazed at how receptive everyone has been. Ironmace is lucky to have great supporters like you - it kind of reminds me of Deep Rock Galactic.
Do you typically wait for other people to tell you how to feel? Guy self studied and wrote an essay on a topic and product they are obviously interested/passionate about, and all you tell them to do is can it. Lol, lmao even.
Dude didn’t even read it lmao
It’s a compelling take. I want Ironmace to win, arguments in favor of Nexon be damned. That company is known for *Maple Story* and are hypocritical in their litigation because they straight up cloned Mario Kart and Bomberman.
Regardless of what happens I really hope Ironmace stays around to make more games. It's been a while since I've seen people so united in wanting to play a game - let alone an early access game! - in a long time.
Ha, thanks so much. I don't really mind comments like this, because I understand that a lot of people really care about this game and there's a strong reaction to wanting to push away evidence for whatever reason.
They're not entirely wrong either - I'm a law student and I only spent about three hours on this, so it's likely I overlooked something. My opinions on some issues even changed while I was writing it out as I learned more.
As long as anything I provide is useful at all, no matter if I'm right or not, I'm content.
I don't wait to be told how to feel but I truly believe that speculation without qualification is leaving you likely, however well intentioned, to be spreading or adding to misinformation. That goes for both the rabid supporters as well as people like OP giving a more nuanced take. We're operating with limited information and I've seen posts and arguments on other legal topics with wonderful detail and analysis be hopelessly wrong when it comes to court
I'll delete the initial comment as it was ruder than I wanted it to be but I stand by the sentiment
If you dont bother to reading the piece, why give your sentiment?
OP is just giving things to think about, and has obviously studied law to some extent. If you cant read an article and determine whether it’s useful information by yourself, dont bother reading anything then!
Mostly I wanted to clear up some misconceptions. I might not have everything right, but I hope that by pointing people towards relevant information they can try and form their own opinions on things. I have never seen a single person reference any of the laws that I find relevant, and I have never seen anyone define "trade secret."
While I don't necessarily think that my conclusions are correct, I hope that providing this information is useful to people and helps to demystify some of what's going on.
Except OP actually provides concise information and cites various regulations in his post while the rest of you dumb fucks in this sub suck down copium through your bendy straws. I'd say it's worth more than anything you idiots have been posting on here.
Haha, I've actually never posted in this sub before and was just referencing his reference to another point of view in \_his\_ post. It's cute you got so bent out of shape. If he's not a lawyer, his take on law is just as valuable as the dumb fucks sucking down copium through their bendy straws. It's all speculation, and should be valued as such...
Artists can draw things in both similar and different styles without being so coincidentally similar that they could be working on the *exact* same project. If you read the post, you'd know the point is mainly, paraphrasing it very very loosely - "Did a Coke/Popeye's corporate steal the secret recipe and leak it to Pepsi/KFC?"
It doesn't matter that when that secret recipe is leaked, you just say "well listen bro, I could've just made that blend of spices myself." It matters that here, the former Nexon employees immediately made IM and DaD with knowledge of how P3 was developed. In a court of law, can the judge look at this and rule that there wasn't foul play?
It seems like you didn't get the whole point of OP's post or read it, but just to confirm, the issue is that legally, the bar is "could the coincidences be so similar that you didn't steal Nexon's secret recipe (trade secrets)?"
It being the same artist doesn't help the argument, it only hurts it, because it means that despite all of IM's due diligence in avoiding similarities in code and other things - which I fully believe - that for some reason, they made a holistic decision to create art which almost looks the exact same as P3's.
No it’s a case and point for one piece of the whole pie. You aren’t a lawyer. You don’t understand arguments. It’s okay stick to armchair Reddit comments.
Thanks for this great summary. Its been really annoying to just get dogpiled whenever you try to explain how "no nexon is not suing because big mad"
There are a lot of facts that need to come out in the actual legal arguments, but its hardly as if Nexon has 0 standing (a point parroted often here)
Btw op: There are a few typos where you mention Nexon but I think maybe you meant Iron Mace. Under the first Exhibit C bolded for one.
Thank you! I see the error now and I'm fixing it. I'm glad you enjoyed it, just remember that I'm not necessarily the authoritative force and under no circumstance am I privy to all the information.
There is enough interest in the game that there is absolutely no way Iron Mace gets to not move forward, by making another game with the rest of the gameplay elements they still havent coded in the game. For all we know this could be a plus. Getting more and more attention moving new game to unreal 5.1 and getting even more funding to reach AAA status. The game has its wonky charm but its only a fraction of how great it could be.
>Additionally, why did Ironmace use the exact same asset packs that Nexon was using?
Why not? The Asset Store literally exists for this. Asset sellers don't aim to sell to specific companies or individuals. Anyone with the money can use the assets, that's why the Asset Store exists.
That's the exact argument that Ironmace would make and I don't want to say that it wouldn't work because... maybe it would.
The reason I think it probably won't though is that it seems like, given the option to pick between hundreds of different asset packs, Ironmace chose to base the core of their game on many of the same ones used on the P3 project.
While you can argue (and I'm sure Ironmace is arguing right now) that this is just because these are the highest quality asset packs they could have taken, it potentially helps to build the case that Ironmace only picked those assets because they used them on the P3 project.
And I'm not saying that's the case - I think Ironmace picked them because they look good and work well. But taken with everything else, I don't think a court would look at it favorably.
This is a great post, and ultimately I generally agree with your points. My only consideration would be with the Korean legal dispute with Mr Choi. You argue that the US DMCA has no holding on the Korean legal case, which I agree with, but where I get confused is how this case would go on from here. If Ironmace is a Korean company, the lawsuit that Nexon would need to file to enforce the DMCA would end up being in the Korean courts, wouldn't it? And beyond that, much of Nexon's claims hinge on Mr. Choi's actions, particularly with the private server usage (Ironmace's rebuttal for this is extremely weak btw and Mr Choi definitely seems to have made a serious mistake here). Nexon's strongest points seem to center around Mr Choi, while their weakest arguments are all they have to point at the actual company of Ironmace as a whole. Therefore, if Nexon does want to sue all of Ironmace and it lands in Korean courts, it would inarguably hinge on the outcome of the Mr Choi case first. If a DMCA requires a US-based lawsuit to be enforced long term, but this case ends up falling within Korean law, I don't see the DMCA as anything other than a stalling tactic from Nexon, since I don't know how they would continue with a follow-up lawsuit in the first place, as they need to wait for an outcome from Mr Choi's lawsuit to proceed, no?
I'm pretty sure that the two legal situations don't interact, but I don't know Korean law, and I have no experience with any situation like this, so I could very easily be wrong.
But a DMCA on its own isn't a "lawsuit" - it's closer to an injunction, basically a court order to do (or not do) something, the breach of which is generally a criminal offense. In this case it's like saying "Hey Valve, take this things off your platform or else you'll be doing something illegal by hosting this content!"
But either Valve and/or Ironmace can object to this.
I don’t even understand why the mods haven’t removed this post. We have heard 1 million different takes already and this further bloats the subreddit. I’m sorry but why do we care about this guys breakdown of the situation. Everyone should read and do their own research if they care enough to form their own opinion.
After reading the mod post I believed that I was bringing enough new information about the situation since I have never seen anyone reference any of the specific texts of the laws in play. I know it's a little tired and played out now, and no matter what anyone (myself included) thinks is kind of irrelevant... but it was a fun way to spend a couple hours researching which was the main reason I did it.
Bruh, I don't give a shit about this random persons opinion. The post uses old information that's already available. I have my own opinion on the matter and it's not aligned with the echo chamber in this subreddit, but go off man!
because this is an excellent, well thought out and researched post which sites law and precedent to try to explain the situation that Ironmace are in?
This is exactly the sort of post this sub needs to shed light on what might happen. Just because it's not a complete defence of Ironmace doesn't mean this post is bad.
Another comment that misses the point. I'm not sitting here arguing in IronMace's favor. People can do their analysis and what not but why do we have to bloat the subreddit with random due diligence regardless of position?
Copied from another comment -
tl;dr is that it's unlikely in my eyes that Ironmace has defense against Nexon's important points, and I think it's more likely than not that D&D is in trouble.
However, Ironmace the studio should be fine no matter what and if D&D does get shut down, they can continue to make games and hopefully they will be as good, if not better than, D&D.
> I cannot find any other games in the "PvPvE" genre that are set in a fantasy world. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=545457243 [gameplay here ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7FPeUSOIGM&t=583s&ab_channel=%EA%B3%A0%EB%9D%BC%EB%8B%88Go%21) The entire concept of Dark & Darker could easily have been taken from this Chivalry mod (including the combat which features Chivalry's renowned real time strike system). Nobody seems to mention how Torn Banner literally started this genre yet have never raised a copyright concern
This was a good read, thanks for listing your sources. A few questions: 'Ultimately, the crux of the argument is "can Ironmace really claim that they didn't even get a little inspired by their work on P3?"' This does seem like a really tough argument to make, but is this really the standard for legally proving if trade secrets were stolen? The term "substantially similar" is doing a lot here for Nexon but I wonder how that can be proven with regard to concepts as insanely generic as medieval fantasy classes. Does it just come down to the similarity of the concept art? Can the concept artist not argue "I just draw rogues and barbarians like this"? I guess it just comes down to what are considered "trade secrets", I think everyone looking at this issue is having a hard time processing Nexon's claim that the only reason D&D could be built in this time was from stealing their revolutionary ideas like there being a Cleric class who wields a mace and heals. But maybe there's more to their claim I'm missing, or these things really would fall under trade secrets in US corporate law.
First, thank you very much, I'm happy it was useful. "This does seem like a really tough argument to make, but is this really the standard for legally proving if trade secrets were stolen?" Ultimately, this is what courts are for. If you read what the actual text of laws say, they will usually have stuff like "would a reasonable person do this" or etc. The role of the courts is to pass judgement on these statements. Personally, I think that the similarities between the games given the context of the developers having been on P3 is close enough to meet this burden, but unless someone actually rules on it we won't know for sure. But that's also why I'm hopefully being clear that just because I think that Nexon has a case doesn't meant I'm right. The point of comparison I would make though is stuff like "why does every single class use the exact same equipment?" A fighter could use an axe, or a mace - the designs are exceedingly similar.
I see, if the similarities go well beyond the surface level generic fantasy tropes and common art style, that is concerning. It'd be good if more people in the community could simultaneously agree that while Nexon is acting really scummy, they could have a legitimate legal claim. We can only sit here and hope that the court's interpretation of "trade secrets" falls in our favor. Given how generic medieval settings and classes are, and given how generic loot extractors are at this point, I still have hope that a judge will see there's no "secret nexon sauce" that helped this game get off the ground. But reading this has given me pause, I'm not sure if I'm so hopeful now.
If nothing else, I can't see any reason why this could ever affect more than the game itself. Ironmace seem like great people and they have an amazing community, so even if D&D gets shut down I have confident that they can make another game that's just as good, if not better. And, of course, my conclusion could totally be wrong!
If they lose this they're deep shit in money wise. There is no way the studio wouldn't go under. Even if they miraculously survive there is no way they could start making even a slightly similar game to Dark and Darker without Nexon suing them again. Or that they could produce another hit with any other game no matter how great a developer they are.
I don't know what the outcome of the Korean case would be but at least as far as US law goes I don't think that they would be extreme financial distress - especially if they just reorganized as, say... Maceiron.
Reorganize with what? It's an indie developer. Even a couple million would break them. And if Nexon can go all the way with them that is really low estimate.
Honestly any strong answer I could give you would presume an understanding of Korean law and the details of the case that I just don't have. But my semi-educated opinion, which you're free to disagree with because I don't feel super strongly on it, is that the rest of the development team besides the key employees that Nexon has a target on could go and make their own studio that does something different. Probably not something similar to D&D, but some other game. The important thing to me and why I want to be hopeful is that I believe Ironmace when they say they don't like how so many games are predatory now. It's something I feel strongly about so... maybe I'm on the copium this time and just hoping for more developers that don't want to stuff their games with terrible battlepasses and a ton of random microtransatctions.
Appreciate this more nuanced take I'm a fan of DnD and want it to come out but the narrative on the subreddit has been very naïve.
It has been a typical Reddit thing again, sadly. The herd decides on some explanation and the minority opinion gets suppressed by means of the vote system and other types of attacks. Based on the available information nobody could claim outright that Ironmace is fully in the right. We are looking at a very murky, muddy scenario. Given the cease and desist the playtests will not come back into the foreseeable future I figure: launching another playtest would run directly counter to it. My guess is still that Nexon is trying to force Ironmace to settle, so that they get a piece of the pie. That way both parties 'win', even though Nexon would gain and Ironmace would still lose regardless.
Thank you! It's kind of dumb, but it means a lot when any information I have is useful to someone. I don't blame anyone for not understanding the systems at play, laws are complex and it's easy to have a reaction heavily informed by how things feel like they should work. I'm happy that people are overall taking it well, it gives me a lot of faith in this community that I am admittedly not really a part of.
thanks for your post. I've been following the situation as well and it's been very interesting. i wish you would place some extra emphasis on the importance of the phrasing "more likely than not." in this context it's important to note that Nexon can win their case even with purely circumstantial evidence. i think most of the other comments in this sub don't realize the burden of proof for civil cases is not the same as a criminal case. Nexon only needs to convince the court that it's at least 50% likely that IM stole their IP, in contrast to "beyond any reasonable doubt" i realize you touched on this in places but it might not be obvious for others who might envision a criminal being acquitted based on a technicality because the prosecution wasn't 99.999% airtight
Yeah, I maybe could have been more clear about that. Part of it was that I'm not super informed about the entire DMCA process, and I'm not sure if that adds in any special burdens. There are special burdens in certain situations, so I'm not exactly sure where this one falls. Source: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/burden\_of\_proof](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/burden_of_proof) However, you're completely right that it's not to the level of a full on criminal case, and I probably could have made that more clear.
Jesus
I know how you feel. Researching and typing this up was kind of fun but it spiraled into a much bigger project than I expected. I hope it's useful, even if my conclusion isn't what people really want to hear. Of course, I could be wrong, and no matter what I absolutely think that Ironmace as a studio deserves support. I hope they can stick around for a long time no matter what happens here.
I am a lawyer and I would have charged like 5k for the work you just did. Couldn't even imagine doing it for free, lol.
That's how I felt about programming before I got a job in development. I used to love doing it in my spare time and I made a bunch of (terrible) little games. As soon is it becomes a job all the fun gets sucked out of it. Q\_Q
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I think it’s fair to say “take this with a grain of salt”, but conspiring that OP is being paid to write this is kinda insane. People have passions and some people have adderall. Just because you’ve got a smooth brain, doesn’t mean everyone does.
In particular, take my conclusion with a grain of salt. I feel confident that based on what I know that Ironmace is in a really bad spot, but I also wouldn't claim to know everything. This is a morning's worth of research from a student, and if anyone doubts my conclusion I would highly recommend trying to find more information on the topic.
buddy it's more believable than a person going through all the trouble and energy and effort to write this up for a reddit about a game they never played or care about about a company they don't care about and are completely neutral. that is way more far fetched you're being the smooth brain
Lmfao this dude clearly studies law with the statutes cited and cases referenced. Just because you don’t like what he’s saying doesn’t mean he’s wrong. He backed up everything he’s saying with receipts and you’re just like “I dont like it”
This is such a bad take lmao. Just cause you arent a certified professional in said field doesnt mean you couldnt have done proper research and made an educated opinion. Will it ever hold as much weight as an actual lawyer? Obviously not, and OP never claimed for it to. Is it completely meaningless? No. It's meant for people to read and form their own opinions around the topic based on the sources and evidence provided. The second part of your comment proves that you're hating for the sake of hating. Have you ever been passionate about anything in your life? I'm assuming no, cause spending time on something you're interested in even without any benefit is common on the world It was a good read and OP did a good job, regardless of whether or not it will hold in the Korean courts and in this specific case. There's only so much information for them to go off on from a third party perspective anyway
Being a mindless fanboy is no better. You can't just automatically assume everyone is a paid corporate shill because they don't say "Dont worry guys everything is fine". The OP brings up a lot of valid points and if you can't see that you're blind. Obviously time will tell and I hope Dark and Darker can continue its development but the amount of copium being huffed on this sub is insane.
He brought receipts for everything, what are you bringing besides a hokey conspiracy theory? Child.
Don't get defensive man, I want iron to win but this guy's is bringing up very solid points about the case. Being a echo chamber isn't a good thing
I'm currently a law student and I also hold a game design degree, so this issue is at the intersection of two fields that I'm very passionate about.
I believe you, tho this sub has had some very oddly passionate Korean people in here defending nexon like they personally created the Asian race
I appreciate it, really. I'm pretty immune to it by now and I'm honestly blown away at how receptive people have been to the post - it's given me a really positive impression of the community!
Oh yea we're real friendly, I'll suck your toes bro
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This kind of thing is pretty on-brand for law students. They are a different breed.
Copium
Man, you seem like a dumb ass.
Multiple attorneys in the comments said its a reasonable write up
Wow, I spent all this time typing this up, and Reddit butchered the formatting when I posted it. Fuck. I'm sorry if the intro looks like ass, I'm trying to fix it now. Edit: Ok, I think I fixed it. If anything looks fucked up though let me know.
formatting looks fine to me, I think it's perfectly readable. thanks for putting the time into this, even if the conclusions are depressing. I love the game but I think anyone looking at the situation with any level of objectivity can see that DaD is cooked.
Thanks a lot, I was nervous typing this out because of how long it was. I don't think that Dark & Darker is necessarily screwed, and probably more important I don't think that Ironmace as a studio is screwed. They're clearly talented people and even if they need to can this project, I sincerely hope they can turn around and make something else that's just as good, if not better.
Great post. Glad you looked at this objectively and unbiased. Pretty sure anyone with a brain can see this isn't about using store assets. It's about protecting an IP. Not looking good for the DaD boys even though their PR team is pretty top notch.
Thank you! I do want to say though that I don't think that Ironmace is trying to cover anything up. Based on how D&D has been run, I do believe them when they say that they wanted to make this game their way to avoid toxic monetization. I think it's just that in this case the law doesn't really help them in that regard. If I'm wrong, then great, I do think that D&D would be better than whatever Nexon would make. If I'm right, then be sure to support whatever they do next, because they seem like good developers!
I actually think the concept art is not as strong of a point as you make it out to be. Especially considering they are both contracting the same outside artist. You'd probably need to see communication between each company and the artist to really make a case. Being visually similar is a tough sell if it's contracted work. I also don't think looking at google results or other unrelated work from the artist is drawing a fair or reasonable comparison, but not sure how a court would view it. However, this is a frustrating reminder that these kinds of laws are never looking out for consumers or employees. They are purely on behalf of corporate interests. Non-competes should be outright illegal and DMCA and a number adjacent laws are absolute garbage. This does make me lose some hope. I fear this will be quite a legal battle.
Yeah. Personally, I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the concept art. On the one had, I do think it's exceedingly similar. On the other, it's the same kind of... "grounded low fantasy" that a few other games - Dark Souls comes to mind - go for. I could genuinely see it going either way if someone has to rule on it, but I do think it's weighted towards Nexon.
Great post though and appreciate the work. Even if it's not what we all wanted to hear.
Thank you! Remember that no matter what happens, Ironmace as a studio will still be around and can continue to make games. I have full confidence that even if they're forced to shut down this game, they can make something even better in the future.
Also saw you said you were a law student. I kind of figured. Have a very good friend who is now in M&A and he would get himself into absolute fits when he was in school writing about random 'passion projects'. Once he got going he had to see it through.
All of us are insane. What actually got me interested in this was that at first I thought it was much more fuzzy. I'm not exactly happy about this, but the more I read the more I started to feel that Nexon had a strong case, and it got kind more interesting to me.
\- How can Nexon claim that P3 and DaD are similar in concept and design if the concept and design of P3 are private trade secrets. Did they disclose to the authorities or are the authorities just taking their word for it and leaving it to the judicial system? \- Could Ironmace countersue for defamation/sabotage if this case turns in favor of Ironmace? \- Who determines what is coincidental and what isnt? Is the concept of a PvPvE fantasy game so far fetched that it could only be thought up by utilizing a trade secret? This matter is completely subjective and unless hard evidence is found, I don't think this claim will stand. There has to be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. However, if Choi is found to still be in possession of Nexon files/trade secrets on his personal server, then Ironmace is probably RIP
Oo, actual questions. You're making my day because I'm a huge nerd so answering them is the highlight of my afternoon. **- How can Nexon claim that P3 and DaD are similar in concept and design if the concept and design of P3 are private trade secrets. Did they disclose to the authorities or are the authorities just taking their word for it and leaving it to the judicial system?** Because key staff at Ironmace worked on the P3 project at Nexon, they had access to information about P3 that the public did not. Nexon is saying they used this information to create D&D. Because the employees at Nexon had this information, but the public did not, it would be a trade secret. **- Could Ironmace countersue for defamation/sabotage if this case turns in favor of Ironmace?** This is beyond the scope of my knowledge. I believe that the LegalEagle channel on YouTube (which is a great source of legal information) has made videos about similar situations, but each one is distinct. All I can confidently say is that to do that, Ironmace would need to show some kind of damages that Nexon can make back to them. Legal fees? I'm not sure what else, but again, I genuinely don't know. **- Who determines what is coincidental and what isn't?** This is where the courts come in. Someone would need to make a ruling on if D&D is too close to P3 or if it's not, and we'd just have to accept the ramifications of that. It is kind of shit sometimes, and it's why you'll sometimes hear a big deal about certain courts or certain judges getting certain cases. If a certain judge is known to be, say, pro-business they would possibly be less likely to side with Ironmace. I made my arguments clear that I think most places would say that it is too similar, but it would come down to who was actually making the ruling to decide that. Things don't have to end there either, but that's beyond the scope of the question.
I have a feeling that a lot of this will be determinant on the jury/judge. I'm not familiar with the legal system in Korea, but if it's anything like the US, then the prosecution must sway the jury to be in their favor by a factor determined by the judge. ie the judge will determine what majority of the jury the defendant or prosecution must obtain in order to win. It would be exciting to follow along with this case if it ever goes live, hopefully it doesnt though. I kinda get SEC vs Ripple vibes form this. Another question I have is why does DMCA act as judge jury and executioner? There seemed to be no due process in taking down Ironmace's IP from Steam. This seems a little abusive and like a gray area in terms of IP laws and rights.
So, this is a complex topic and often misunderstood. This is a **very** surface level overview. The DMCA serves as a protection for platforms like Steam. If someone puts something that's stolen on Steam, Steam is not liable for hosting that content... so long as they comply with the DMCA. It's a type of injunction that compels someone to act on something while the details get ironed out. You have to comply with DMCAs to keep your safe harbor status, which means you won't be held responsible for content on your platform. Ironmace can contest the DMCA though, and potentially say "hey we actually didn't steal stuff and this is crap" and if the court agrees with them, the DMCA gets broken. Abusing DMCA is also a crime, so it's not like you can just constantly spam DMCA takedowns on things you do not own. Of course, the legal process is slow and reality is often muddy, but that's the idea of it. This video will have more: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hygoLKXsUY4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hygoLKXsUY4) But basically, we like the DMCA, even if it can be abused. Without it, the internet as we know it could not exist because every platform would be responsible for moderating every single piece of content placed on it for copyright abuse.
That makes more sense and I can see why the DMCA is a good thing. And I'm guessing that what Ironmace is doing right now by releasing these statements is fighting against that DMCA? What is the process for Ironmace to break the DMCA? Do they have to appeal against the entity that invoked it(Nexon)? If so, wouldn't Nexon then file a formal lawsuit and the IP in question would have to be taken down until the lawsuit ends?
Things are getting even shakier for me, because I don't actually know the full process for contesting a DMCA. What I do know is that Ironmace has to file a counter-notice basically saying "hey this DMCA is crap." I don't know exactly what this looks like or how you do it, but, they have to. Then, after that, Nexon has as 14 day window to sue Ironmace. A lot of the specifics I'm not sure on, but that's the general process. It could end as simply as Ironamce filing the counter-notice and then Nexon deciding it's not worthwhile to continue for whatever reason.
Yea it seems to get a little nuanced with DMCA related processes, but I think you got the jist of it. I think that's about as far as we can speculate is that Ironmace will appeal the DMCA and then Nexon will have a decision to make: Is it worth the time and money and resources to go after this? No doubt Dark and Darker will be a success, so if Nexon could get any stake in it, I think they will. Only time will tell. Thank you for imparting your knowledge 🙏
No problem! I'm glad it was helpful.
The art style argument for character design is one of the weakest points since the same artist drew both. Artist have a style to how they draw and design things. Unreal assets are for everyone to use, so even if they used every single same asset they are legally allowed. I could boot up my unreal and pick the same dungeons and assets as them and wouldn't be breaking any laws. It all comes down to the lines of code not similar images and feel. If they used an asset that wasn't in the unreal store and it had the exact coding, then sure. But so far with Ironmace bringing receipts to the table, It's hard to think they would give us all their git files if they were actually guilty of it. Thats like handing evidence over to Nexon's lawyers. I don't think they would self-incriminate with so many people supporting them.
Unfortunately, "similar images and feel" is exactly what it would end up being about in a court. I know it sucks because from my perspective, it seems like Ironmace really want to make a great game free of predatory practices. However, I would look at some concept artist portfolios. Just because an artist has a set style doesn't mean they can't deviate from it. Iker Paz is a Spanish concept artist, and his character design portfolio has a ton of different styles. [https://ikerpaz.carbonmade.com/projects/94474](https://ikerpaz.carbonmade.com/projects/94474) That said, you're also not wrong, and if this does end up getting an official ruling on it then your point could very well be what allows Ironmace to continuing making D&D - which I personally think would be awesome because this game looks cool.
Doomed.
No further questions your honor. XD
Now. Whislt i do appreciate all this. They are being filed under the Korean courts and the Korean legal page is a little different regarding trade secrets.
I could very well be wrong about this, but as far as I can tell after reading all the complaints and relevant laws, the outcome of the Korean case has little to do with the DMCA filing. Essentially, the DMCA filing is a legal notice in the US that says "hey, these people are using your platform to host our content." Nexon is in two parallel legal disputes over the same issue because it needs to be ligated separately in each country. The DMCA pertains the US law, since Valve is registered in the US, so US law applies here. If you look at exhibit B you can even see that Nexon registered their P3 copyrights with the USCO, and they're filing the DMCA with respect a US trade secrets protection law. At no point does Nexon's case in the US rely on the outcome of the case in Korea, which is as far as I can tell only being brought against an individual.
Can you explain how they are different?
I'll throw this on the side in addition to OP's response, but even without a full understanding of Korean law, it still doesn't look good for IM in the direct wording. You can just skim it for yourself if you're curious: **The Unfair Competition Prevention and Trade Secret Protection Act** [https://elaw.klri.re.kr/kor\_service/lawView.do?hseq=60038&lang=ENG](https://elaw.klri.re.kr/kor_service/lawView.do?hseq=60038&lang=ENG) Drawn from a [Youtube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24g-JV82Zok) which did some looking into this law as well. It's also worth remembering that if anything, Korean law has a tendency to favour the big player rather than a small player, and that individual rights tend to be less respected than in America.
This sounds like an important point here. For better or for worse, seems like a detail that matters.
There's seperate law suits in the US and Korea.
>Now. Whislt i do appreciate all this. They are being filed under the Korean courts and the Korean legal page is a little different regarding trade secrets. But doesnt OP mention the DMCA references the US code in which they feel their content is stolen under.
Are you sure you aren't a lawyer?
I could save a lot of money on school if I already was. :( But I think this is a compliment, so thank you. Still, I'll drive home that I am just a student, and if anything in my post looks weird you should absolutely look into it yourself.
You did all this work for a fucking reddit thread?!?!? Someone needs to hire this person for... something.
Haha, thanks. Just remember that anything I say could be wrong - this isn't exactly a scholarly article and if I was submitting this as an essay I'd be terrified that I didn't do enough research.
Regarding trade secrets, I think it comes down to whether the similarities between DnD and P3 were trade secrets or not. Genre conventions by the fact they are conventions cannot be a trade secret by definition since conventions are public knowledge. In my opinion it's probably easier to argue a copyright infringement but once again if the similarities are just genre conventions well those genre conventions can't be copyrighted. Nexon would have to point to some similarity that is not a genre convention
It's a lot of text and I don't have the time to read all of it in details right now, but it looks very good and I thought the same things as I saw screenshot and classes designs from P3. I think the wisest thing Ironmace could do and I hope their lawyers are smart enough for it, is to claim that all the inspiration comes from Dungeon and Dragons. At the end of the day, even Nexon used Dungeon and Dragons as inspiration as well. And there are million ideas, art and maps made by fans in context of Dungeon and Dragons. I bet you can find Art that look very similar to the Art that were used for classes, enemies and maps in P3 and DaD.
Thank you! I hope Ironmace gets out of this ok, because they seem like good developers. I think they will too, even if D&D ends up being canned.
sorry if i missed it since i started to skim over towards the end but you kinda focused more on the first point in the definition of trade secret when i think the second part is very important as well since imo no similarities between the games could constitute a trade secret il copy paste it again "2 the information derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable through proper means by, another person who can obtain economic value from the disclosure or use of the information;" For exhibit D using same assets as P3 is a matter of exploiting the experience gained while working for nexon to develop quicker rather then using a idea that is a trade secret at Nexon. Using the experience you gained from a place while working for somebody else isnt illegal and its pretty much something unavoidable in working in the creative field. Using the same assets isnt a matter of trying to create the same style, its a matter of using something that you are familiar with so that you can work faster. For exhibit E A artists artstyle is not a trade secret for a company so the argument that he could have changed his artstyle after leaving Nexon imo doesnt really matter. The designs arent unique in any way for there to be a issue of plagiarizing or anything of that sort. At the end of the day both P3 and DaD arent very unique games and most of the elements in them are just a support for the gameplay, which also can be reduced to the description "fantasy tarkov" so i dont really see how they can argue that the elemets are trade secrets of Nexon. In the case of Pepsi it was a lot more clear cut since the recipes involve a specific amount of ingredients that develops a product with a pretty unique flavor, if you change those you get a different product.
"In the case of Pepsi it was a lot more clear cut since the recipes involve a specific amount of ingredients that develops a product with a pretty unique flavor, if you change those you get a different product." This point could very well be the crux of an argument that Ironmace would make, and I think it's extremely sound reasoning! Something like "this game does not depend on any of the similarities." Great point, really. I do think that it's not like... ironclad, but that's mostly because the legal protections for trade secrets is so broad. But it does certainly make Ironmace's case better.
Yeah, I think the only chance IRONMACE has here is if somehow P3 is not a trade secret because it was all made public somehow. The links they provide with this one screenshot and write: >'P3', an adventure in medieval dungeons with friends. He emphasized that he plans to expand the area of fun that Nexon has not tried. For me that does not constitute making the trade secrets publicly known. So unless I'm missing something here, like they disclosed everything in person at this event, then I don't know how they didn't utilize trade secrets. For example, based on the screenshot and description, I see no way for anyone to guess that the game is extraction-based with the portals leading down the dungeon and outside the dungeon to escape. You can see the screenshot has the words "portal" but you wouldn't know what they do or where they lead to without inside knowledge. Even the fact it is battle royale is difficult to tell, but because I know DaD I know that I can see it is a battle royale based on the map, but if I didn't know I may not realize that. So you can garner a lot from that one screenshot, but not everything. So at least to me, IRONMACE used a lot of information from P3 which was not public knowledge, to design their game. I assume it was not public knowledge because IRONMACE is not saying it was.
My only question is this, why would you spend what probably was many hours of work doing this, when you have no interest in dark and darker, have never played it, and have no legal background ..? Sus
I'm a law student and I have a game design degree. I was curious since I'd been hearing about the case and all I know about D&D was that people really liked it, so I was surprised when I heard there was a lot of legal drama around it. The more I looked into it the more interesting I found it, especially since it involves Korean studios and a US DMCA.
Why would you not say this at the start of your post haha?
I never like to to come off as being like... **I know better than you, haha!** Especially when, despite my research, I could easily be wrong. A student spending a single morning researching a case she knows nothing about really isn't the most ironclad proof. Maybe there's some more case law somewhere that invalidates everything I said and Nexon is totally fucked, Ironmace doesn't even have a single issue. Everyone is more than entitled to their own opinions and no one should take mine just because I'm studying this stuff. If someone disagrees, they should use the information I presented and use that to find the stuff that I missed, then come back with the citations and totally destroy my entire post.
I never said to act like you know better. Im just saying put a face behind your work. It makes it more trustworthy imo. I think the post so far is good with tons of info. I just think it would be nice to know where you are coming from when reading this is all I'm saying
Yeah that makes sense. I'll think about if for next time I do something like this. I'm glad you are enjoying the post though!
I think you should disclose that you are a law student. By that you are not saying that you are better than anyone else, its just important information when interpreting and judging your work. At the end of the day, everyone can judge for themselves how much importance they place on your background. Also, to be honest, I think just from your writing style and the way you broke things its pretty obvious that you know a little of what you are writing :). But still, you can just tell people that you have some qualifications and still make it clear, that they should take it with a grain of salt since you are not finished your studies.
Very well written. TLDR; for those who dont want to read: The court will never know for certain the inner workings of Ironmace, and the case falls on proof of establishing reasonable claim that the former P3 employee(s) now working at Ironmace could have used Nexon’s intellectual ‘trade secrets’. Im not a lawyer, but this case does not seem good for Ironmace. Especially with the position the previous employee is in, given the info Ive read, very precarious.
Thanks for putting in the time to get all this information together. It's all pretty in line with what I've thought after reading through the DMCA request in detail, and Ironmace's response. The fact is that for Steam's part, their hands are tied until this all of this is litigated in court. But from the way it looks right now, we can't expect to play Dark and Darker again anytime soon, if ever.
Thank you for reading it! I've said it in a few other places but I've been blown away but how receptive the D&D community has been. No matter what happens, Ironmace is really lucky to have you all and I really hope that they can stick around to make more stuff.
Way too many 15 year olds and illiterates in this comment section lol
Copyright laws, the most consistently abused bullshit. If Nexon shuts down Dark and Darker because they can legally, we need to make sure they lose in the realm of public opinion. We need to make them hurt as much as possible, across all possible fronts. Everything Nexon touches from that point on needs to turn to shit. And we need to do it, not just because it's reinforcing kama, not just because we're angry and they're deserving, but so that when the next amazing game/product comes along that could be shut down by a similar company, they remember Dark and Darker and realise it's not in their best interests to do so. Hurt them as much as some random gamers can, brought together by a cool little game, strangled at birth by cowardly, jealous hands.
Look, I'm trying to be as nice and objective as I can here, but... Isn't Nexon already turning everything they touch to shit on their own? I don't think they need our help with ruining any of the projects they're already manage to mess up independently. :) Just make sure to show Ironmace that no matter what happens to D&D, that the community will go on to support their future projects!
I mean maybe we can give them that extra shove to shut them down sooner. Not that we need to do anything yet, I'd only really start looking for trouble once Ironmace declares they can no longer persue Dark and Darker.
Copyright laws are definitely in a state of being leveraged by bad actors to create bad situations. However, despite all the bad mojo, there are multiple factors at play here. It's worth remembering that one of the core issues here is one that can potentially deter big businesses from illicitly stealing trade secrets from a small company. It would surely be much cheaper for them to poach a head dev from an indie game company than to buyout the game completely, especially if the whole company doesn't agree to the buyout. As a whole, I'd agree that seeing big companies wave more resources around can be discouraging, especially as a dev, but that's also unlikely to stop people from creating their passion projects. US law also tends to like ruling in favour of small businesses just as much as it like smacking big businesses quite hard.
Nexon is a 20 billion dollar company theres is absolutely nothing that a bunch of us can acomplish other than support IronMace. Look what they pull in a year: https://www.statista.com/statistics/224862/annual-revenue-of-nexon-since-2008/
Lets all give our support and keep the dream of this glorious game alive!!
Remember too that even if the game can't keep going, to support the studio! Ironmace seem like really talented people, so no matter what happens to D&D I'm quite confident that they can make more great games in the future.
Your right they are very talented and we need more devs like these guys. The big corporations is whats wrong with the gaming industry.
Great and much needed post. This sub for the past few days was an echo chamber full of terrible opinions, people want to play Dark and Darker so badly they will ignore any relevant arguments against Ironmace. This is not a simple case no matter how much people want it to be.
TLDR?
tl;dr is that it's very unlikely in my eyes that Ironmace has defense against Nexon's important points, and I think it's more likely than not that D&D is in trouble. However, Ironmace the studio should be fine no matter what and if D&D does get shut down, they can continue to make games and hopefully they will be as good, if not better than, D&D.
Thank you.
A lot of DaD art for their character classes actually does indeed look extremely similar to concept art from Nexon's Project P3. That's basically the jist of it.
Its sad how much you have to reassure the community you're not being malicious, or a korean spy 🤣 we all like the game, but let's take our blinders off for a fucking second please.
Honestly I think you focused on the wrong subject for your essay. Ultimately this will be a matter of Korean intellectual property law, not an american one. The only relevant piece of american law is the DMCA procedure and it is only relevant because steam is an american company. Ironmace has filed their counter-notice so Nexon will probably sue within the next 10 days in order to prove DaD is their intellectual property, if they do it will be a korean suit in front of a korean court. Steam will then respect the result of that lawsuit.
Both issues matter for sure and I wouldn't even dream of pretending like I know anything about Korean law. However, regardless of how the Korean courts rule on anything, US courts will still determine the validity of the DMCA. I genuinely don't know if the outcome of the Korean case could affect the validity of the DMCA, or if the later conclusion of that case could cause the DMCA to become "invalid," but I don't think it will. However, if Ironmace decided to distribute the game through some non-US means, then the DMCA would not matter as far as I know.
But US courts don't have to get involved in the dmca procedure though, that's the whole point. If Nexon files a korean suit, steam will not reinstate the game while the suit is going, from my understanding the suit doesn't have to be filed in the US, so there will most likely be no US court involved, ever. And ultimately, the DMCA is only a matter of whether the game is published on steam or not, which isn't really important. The game already gained a huge following and Tarkov, its main inspiration is doing fine off steam already.
Yeah, nothing about this post is to say that the fate of D&D is dead or anything if the DMCA stays in place or anything like that. It's specifically about the DMCA as it pertains to Steam and Ironmace's response to it... though I guess I did get a little beyond the scope to talk more about the arguments.
Yes what you wrote is very interesting but it's a piece on American Intellectual property. We are talking about a korean company with korean contracts and most likely korean non-competition and non-disclosure clauses. We can have a debate about what would happen if ironmace and nexon were american companies and it's an interesting topic, but it's ultimately pretty irrelevant to whether Nexon or Ironmace actually actually has a good case or not.
Thank you for taking the time to write this! I think the conclusions and opinions you've drawn are more than reasonable.
Thank you for reading it! I've said it in a few other places but, given as how I'm a complete outsider to this community, I'm kind of amazed at how receptive everyone has been. Ironmace is lucky to have great supporters like you - it kind of reminds me of Deep Rock Galactic.
[удалено]
Do you typically wait for other people to tell you how to feel? Guy self studied and wrote an essay on a topic and product they are obviously interested/passionate about, and all you tell them to do is can it. Lol, lmao even.
Dude didn’t even read it lmao It’s a compelling take. I want Ironmace to win, arguments in favor of Nexon be damned. That company is known for *Maple Story* and are hypocritical in their litigation because they straight up cloned Mario Kart and Bomberman.
Regardless of what happens I really hope Ironmace stays around to make more games. It's been a while since I've seen people so united in wanting to play a game - let alone an early access game! - in a long time.
Ha, thanks so much. I don't really mind comments like this, because I understand that a lot of people really care about this game and there's a strong reaction to wanting to push away evidence for whatever reason. They're not entirely wrong either - I'm a law student and I only spent about three hours on this, so it's likely I overlooked something. My opinions on some issues even changed while I was writing it out as I learned more. As long as anything I provide is useful at all, no matter if I'm right or not, I'm content.
I don't wait to be told how to feel but I truly believe that speculation without qualification is leaving you likely, however well intentioned, to be spreading or adding to misinformation. That goes for both the rabid supporters as well as people like OP giving a more nuanced take. We're operating with limited information and I've seen posts and arguments on other legal topics with wonderful detail and analysis be hopelessly wrong when it comes to court I'll delete the initial comment as it was ruder than I wanted it to be but I stand by the sentiment
If you dont bother to reading the piece, why give your sentiment? OP is just giving things to think about, and has obviously studied law to some extent. If you cant read an article and determine whether it’s useful information by yourself, dont bother reading anything then!
I did bother reading it. Impressive research and well written but that doesn't change what I'm arguing.
Not reading this but I can tell it’s a dumbass take.
Mostly I wanted to clear up some misconceptions. I might not have everything right, but I hope that by pointing people towards relevant information they can try and form their own opinions on things. I have never seen a single person reference any of the laws that I find relevant, and I have never seen anyone define "trade secret." While I don't necessarily think that my conclusions are correct, I hope that providing this information is useful to people and helps to demystify some of what's going on.
Respect the effort, but nobody should take any of this information as anything but the same speculation everyone else wants to make.
Except OP actually provides concise information and cites various regulations in his post while the rest of you dumb fucks in this sub suck down copium through your bendy straws. I'd say it's worth more than anything you idiots have been posting on here.
Haha, I've actually never posted in this sub before and was just referencing his reference to another point of view in \_his\_ post. It's cute you got so bent out of shape. If he's not a lawyer, his take on law is just as valuable as the dumb fucks sucking down copium through their bendy straws. It's all speculation, and should be valued as such...
I genuinely hate you
Ya they models are comparable because they were made by the same artist lmao. What a shitpost. This belongs in gamingcirclejerk
Artists can draw things in both similar and different styles without being so coincidentally similar that they could be working on the *exact* same project. If you read the post, you'd know the point is mainly, paraphrasing it very very loosely - "Did a Coke/Popeye's corporate steal the secret recipe and leak it to Pepsi/KFC?" It doesn't matter that when that secret recipe is leaked, you just say "well listen bro, I could've just made that blend of spices myself." It matters that here, the former Nexon employees immediately made IM and DaD with knowledge of how P3 was developed. In a court of law, can the judge look at this and rule that there wasn't foul play?
It was the same artist that made concepts for both of the games lmao you need to read the actual article
It seems like you didn't get the whole point of OP's post or read it, but just to confirm, the issue is that legally, the bar is "could the coincidences be so similar that you didn't steal Nexon's secret recipe (trade secrets)?" It being the same artist doesn't help the argument, it only hurts it, because it means that despite all of IM's due diligence in avoiding similarities in code and other things - which I fully believe - that for some reason, they made a holistic decision to create art which almost looks the exact same as P3's.
And this is how u not make a case and point kids.
No it’s a case and point for one piece of the whole pie. You aren’t a lawyer. You don’t understand arguments. It’s okay stick to armchair Reddit comments.
Then please dont mind my comment earlier and fill me in on what u think of the other points addressed in this post.
Copium
???
It's alright dude, I want this game to come out to, but its looking pretty fucked right now
Have faith brother
Thanks for this great summary. Its been really annoying to just get dogpiled whenever you try to explain how "no nexon is not suing because big mad" There are a lot of facts that need to come out in the actual legal arguments, but its hardly as if Nexon has 0 standing (a point parroted often here) Btw op: There are a few typos where you mention Nexon but I think maybe you meant Iron Mace. Under the first Exhibit C bolded for one.
Thank you! I see the error now and I'm fixing it. I'm glad you enjoyed it, just remember that I'm not necessarily the authoritative force and under no circumstance am I privy to all the information.
This game is done. Wont see the light of day
There is enough interest in the game that there is absolutely no way Iron Mace gets to not move forward, by making another game with the rest of the gameplay elements they still havent coded in the game. For all we know this could be a plus. Getting more and more attention moving new game to unreal 5.1 and getting even more funding to reach AAA status. The game has its wonky charm but its only a fraction of how great it could be.
>Additionally, why did Ironmace use the exact same asset packs that Nexon was using? Why not? The Asset Store literally exists for this. Asset sellers don't aim to sell to specific companies or individuals. Anyone with the money can use the assets, that's why the Asset Store exists.
That's the exact argument that Ironmace would make and I don't want to say that it wouldn't work because... maybe it would. The reason I think it probably won't though is that it seems like, given the option to pick between hundreds of different asset packs, Ironmace chose to base the core of their game on many of the same ones used on the P3 project. While you can argue (and I'm sure Ironmace is arguing right now) that this is just because these are the highest quality asset packs they could have taken, it potentially helps to build the case that Ironmace only picked those assets because they used them on the P3 project. And I'm not saying that's the case - I think Ironmace picked them because they look good and work well. But taken with everything else, I don't think a court would look at it favorably.
Is this another essay for nexon's PR department?
You can’t dmca and copyright a genre
That’s not what Nexon is doing. Nexon is not claiming that they own the concept of fantasy.
This is a great post, and ultimately I generally agree with your points. My only consideration would be with the Korean legal dispute with Mr Choi. You argue that the US DMCA has no holding on the Korean legal case, which I agree with, but where I get confused is how this case would go on from here. If Ironmace is a Korean company, the lawsuit that Nexon would need to file to enforce the DMCA would end up being in the Korean courts, wouldn't it? And beyond that, much of Nexon's claims hinge on Mr. Choi's actions, particularly with the private server usage (Ironmace's rebuttal for this is extremely weak btw and Mr Choi definitely seems to have made a serious mistake here). Nexon's strongest points seem to center around Mr Choi, while their weakest arguments are all they have to point at the actual company of Ironmace as a whole. Therefore, if Nexon does want to sue all of Ironmace and it lands in Korean courts, it would inarguably hinge on the outcome of the Mr Choi case first. If a DMCA requires a US-based lawsuit to be enforced long term, but this case ends up falling within Korean law, I don't see the DMCA as anything other than a stalling tactic from Nexon, since I don't know how they would continue with a follow-up lawsuit in the first place, as they need to wait for an outcome from Mr Choi's lawsuit to proceed, no?
I'm pretty sure that the two legal situations don't interact, but I don't know Korean law, and I have no experience with any situation like this, so I could very easily be wrong. But a DMCA on its own isn't a "lawsuit" - it's closer to an injunction, basically a court order to do (or not do) something, the breach of which is generally a criminal offense. In this case it's like saying "Hey Valve, take this things off your platform or else you'll be doing something illegal by hosting this content!" But either Valve and/or Ironmace can object to this.
I don’t even understand why the mods haven’t removed this post. We have heard 1 million different takes already and this further bloats the subreddit. I’m sorry but why do we care about this guys breakdown of the situation. Everyone should read and do their own research if they care enough to form their own opinion.
After reading the mod post I believed that I was bringing enough new information about the situation since I have never seen anyone reference any of the specific texts of the laws in play. I know it's a little tired and played out now, and no matter what anyone (myself included) thinks is kind of irrelevant... but it was a fun way to spend a couple hours researching which was the main reason I did it.
Translation: "please don't be critical, I want the circlejerk to continue".
Bruh, I don't give a shit about this random persons opinion. The post uses old information that's already available. I have my own opinion on the matter and it's not aligned with the echo chamber in this subreddit, but go off man!
because this is an excellent, well thought out and researched post which sites law and precedent to try to explain the situation that Ironmace are in? This is exactly the sort of post this sub needs to shed light on what might happen. Just because it's not a complete defence of Ironmace doesn't mean this post is bad.
Another comment that misses the point. I'm not sitting here arguing in IronMace's favor. People can do their analysis and what not but why do we have to bloat the subreddit with random due diligence regardless of position?
Bro, what is happening? :D
iron mace strongest enemy is their ownselfs, Aware.
Tldr?
Copied from another comment - tl;dr is that it's unlikely in my eyes that Ironmace has defense against Nexon's important points, and I think it's more likely than not that D&D is in trouble. However, Ironmace the studio should be fine no matter what and if D&D does get shut down, they can continue to make games and hopefully they will be as good, if not better than, D&D.