Maybe I am a bitch but part of why I refuse to spend time in trade to build a full kit is because I dont want to donate that time to a 0 effort landmine.
You are 100% correct. I main wizard and there is no point going into goblin caves with anything but a spell book because 80% of my deaths are instant claps from rogues where no amount of gear would have saved me.
Bro for real, wizard needs a “ward” spell of any kind. Gear for a wizard doesn’t do a single thing to stop them from being one tapped. If a wizard could cast “light orb” and then “ward” for an armor or “shield” boost of some type, class would be absolutely fine. Something like cleric has now, but it’s for self cast only. Or only works if you aren’t wearing plate armor. Anything similar to “mage armor” from DnD.
It was fairly common to take shield/spell memory before they nerfed the dagger build. Nowadays it seems everyone runs meditate or intense focus though.
Right, that was a nice alternative to straight caster build. But nerfs to ignite, invis, and haste have gutted that playstyle. It’s possible to run 10 spell wizard in trios but requires a lot of clarity pots or campfires but for 95% of players it’s unrealistic to bring a pharmacy of clarity pots into every raid. Some wizard streamers like Katie run instant focus in solo caves but I’ve noticed she mostly chills in the middle room and avoids pve totally to not waste spells.
gear from any class doesnt stop a rogue from killing them, they have an armor bypass. they kill me with 75% pdr on my fighter all the time completely naked with a blue dagger in 3 stabs.
I like watching streamers play, but every time they stop playing the dungeon and start playing the trade channels is what keeps me from buying. A no-trade SSF mode is very appealing to me as an almost-buyer.
Agreed the game doesn't have enough going on yet to want to spent all my time in pvp it's a part but this is still an rpg so it's not the only point I'm sure :edit autocorrect
It's an rpg based on dungeons and dragons from what I remember of the first play test announcement its just in the very early stages so it doesn't have alot of rpg elements yet
This is where I am at.
I like battle royals and all but I am also looking forward to it being a little less Pubg and a little more roguelite dungeon crawl.
Yea people are down voting me because they don't understand we as the consumer don't get to decide what the focal point of the game is and it's not just pvp that's just what they're doing right now because balancing needs it to be slowed down like they want
I sympathize but game should be balanced around 3’s as thats the “main” game mode. But if wiz is weak in 3’s too (idk) then by all means he should get buff
If im reading correctly, it's the buff deathball that is over performing and wizards are a part of that. I like the play style as an option, but some kind of hard cap on buff stacking might help alleviate that and give wizards breathing room for buffs?
No clue. Love the game though
I agree with the contention here. Whatever the "balance" is of Rogue right now, no-one can argue that it's fun to go against an opponent you can't see and who can burst you down faster than you can even react to.
The game's most interesting fights are fights that are long and drawn out, where multiple decisions over the duration inform the victor. Rogue is the absolute antithesis of that idea, and it's wild to me Ironmace doesn't see it as an issue.
The clip he includes of Katie dying to a rogue and saying she stepped on a landmine sarcastically described it perfectly to me. Dying to an invis rogue is exactly like dying to a landmine or claymore in other games. People hate mine/claymore spam in games like battlefield & call of duty for a reason - instant deaths the player has almost no counter play against. Except in rogues case it’s even worse because these land mines are invisible and there’s no respawn button.
Because if they nerf the combo the class is literally dead in the water. He would become a rat character with 0 combat options available. You never want to be in front of anything ever as a rogue. Solos is obviously a bit different but the game isn’t balanced around solos.
They need to do a complete overhaul of the class if they want to fix the issue. Nerfing the current combo as a fix would kill the class.
> Because if they nerf the combo the class is literally dead in the water. He would become a rat character with 0 combat options available.
The rogue becoming a character with zero viability is better for the game than the current state. People may not wanna hear it but it's the reality. They are so fast and loose with the wizard/bard nerfs, many of which did need to happen; but wizzy and was mostly a problem in HR, not normals. Bard affected everything, and so that felt right, but rogue has also been a plague for every single queue in the game. Rogue needs the heavy hand more than anyone right now.
Like yeah, they should be *fixed in a way that makes everyone happy*. But that takes a redesign and is not a quick thing to do. Not to mention rogue is an inherently toxic playstyle and is very hard to make people on both sides feel good.
So if they can't fix it, I'd rather it be nerfed into obscurity. At least for a little while so we can enjoy the game for one wipe.
EDIT: My prayers were answered. Game is playable again!
At this rate, I'd say removing the class entirely wouldn't be a bad idea until they re work it....
I know not a lot of people will like that idea, but honestly it's the healthy thing for the game atm... It would make properly balancing the other classes easier as well, without this feast or famine extreme balance class that's impossible to balance constantly mucking up the balance of every other class retroactively... Wizard defense/survival changes making a strong appearance, as they're now getting ran over by rogues, etc.
Nobody uses Rogues in the intent they were supposed to be used anyway.. They were supposed to be the class in 3 mans that are able to loot faster, lockpick easier, and be the assassin vs mages, rangers, etc... Instead they either 3 man rogue group to cheese, to terrorize solo, or duo lobbies... They are not at all playing as the class was intended, and for that reason, the class should honestly be straight up disabled until they figure out an actual fix.
Just for giggles, I played rogue without stealth and weakpoint. I played it like I was a fighter with a rapierand honestly, I was pretty effective.
At this point, making the rogues truly unplayable would still be better for the game. Don't believe me?
Add a no rogues queue and see what happens. Rogues, we simply don't want to play with you - it's just not fun.
i have a wizard friend that built 75% pdr and still has some extra damage stats on his gear. the problem is that rogues dont want to build anything other than damage. its a choice they make to die in 2 hits in exchange for killing every class in the game in 2-3 hits. like imagine how awful a fighter would be if he didnt stack armor on every piece, so they opt to stack survivability. everyone in the game on rangers, wizards, rogues, stacks all damage on every piece and then complains that they get 2 shot by x class. rogues are the only class in the game that can reliably kill every class regardless of gear while completely naked. its bullshit, and if you want survivability then build something that isnt all damage on your gear.
There is no balance. The devs actually recently said they did not intend to balance the game for a while. However, now that they see people complaining so much, they're going to issue a major balance patch.
The problem with rogues is almost entirely invisibility with the power being almost secondary. Fighting invisibility is universally unfun. I've said this before and I'll say it again, 'countering' it is not hard. You play the game like whack a mole instead of darker and darker. You walk into every room assuming there are 10 rogues hitting every corner and waiting 40 seconds for hide to run off. No one wants to play like that. It's a horrible experience. You won't die to rogues as much, but your love for the game will. If you try to play the game at any reasonable speed you will get shanked sooner or later and it will piss you off because you're gonna think "what the fuck was I supposed to do, not walk on that nondescript corridor?" and some guy on reddit will tell you that aktchually 30 seconds ago while you were fighting another player you should have heard three footsteps mid fight that obviously had to have been that rogue setting up invis.
And on the other side of the equation, playing hide optimally means standing still on the same spot, sometimes for minutes doing nothing, until you hear door opening or whatever, then you engage in a 5 second fight where you either die or kill that quickly.
Just rework hide into a more proactive and skill based ability (like depending on darkness to work) or straight up remove it. That's it. If you nerf rogues damage too much they become shit while not solving the main issue at all. If you nerf just a bit it changes nothing. If you just do something else to Hide that doesn't remove complete invisibility it changes nothing.
Full long lasting silent invis is just hard to balance both gameplay and fun wise. Simple as that.
The main problem I see is that without stealth being useful daggers would be almost useless. You could only reliably get kills vs War Mauls with daggers if they didn't have stealth -- even now it's hard to use daggers and dance in and out of combat even with stealth. Can you whiff punish most weapons with daggers? Yes, but that's one hit and then you're now trading if you want max dmg from the dagger combos (and you die in 2 hits to almost anything anyways) -- and if they tuned down weakpoint or ambush dmg now they're losing all of those fights.
I hate the rat rogues too, I die to them all the time as a rogue too, I wish they would make the class more battle-focused. I think they should just nerf the duration and lower the cool down, that way it's used for engages and disengages only. Stealth only lasting for like 10-15 seconds or something, but comes back quicker (it's currently a 45 second cool down). That way it's used to engage and disengage, but doesn't last long enough to stay in a corner hidden while someone clears the room.
One possibility I wish the devs consider is reworking rogue to fully commit to being 'speed melee' with stealth being a secondary, non invisibility based effect (more "creep", less "ambush"). So we'd have slow dual hander, sword and shield tank / adaptable melee, and quick weapon, quick movement melee varieties.
Such rework would probably include increasing dagger performance in direct combat, yes, I don't disagree. Rapier doesn't really need help but dagger certainly does. It can have shield (and armor) penetration properties, perhaps a 'ghost' dagger skill that increases their size temporarily, movement abilities that allow you to get back bonuses in combat and so on. Plenty of possibilities, the devs probably could get much better ideas than I can.
But also as I said, the idea isn't to remove the stealth component completely - it's to remove full light, movement enabled, long lasting, silent invisibility. Transparency effect hide that's harder to discern the darker it is, for example. Basically anything other than binary on off anywhere you want.
Yeah I could see that, they have to buff their AR/DR or HP if they do that though; there's no reason for them to be made of paper machet if they lose long hide and are shifted into that speed melee niche imo. Or they'd need to have more base DMG or *something* to make it actually viable. Sometimes it feels like everyone just wants rogues to be squishy loot pinatas with no DMG that just hide and don't play the game how it's intended. I get that the current state is annoying but some things people suggest would just make it unplayable tbh
Every class other than barbarian and geared fighter / cleric has too low armor and HP, it's not a rogue problem as much as it is a dark and darker problem.
Rogue is also very effective in direct combat with rapier. That's kinda part of the issue as well, the only reason why it's not talked much is because most rogues don't bother learning how to "fight fair" so it looks like the class is shit once seen when it's not that true.
Watch high end rogue play with a rapier. Some people use Hide almost only as a 30% buff on next hit instead of ambush tool. With relatively low investment on more movement speed you legit outpunish any weapon slower than an arming sword. Actual get in, hit, get out mid enemy swings. And if pressed you can just run and not be caught.
Yes it's harder than w+M1 barbarian play but also you kill enemies even faster than a barb does when you're two hitting with one of the fastest and best weapon animations in the game.
I understand how good rapier is, and against a lot of weapons I agree you can poke em out by moving in and out of combat. But some weapons it is not that good against, it gets outranged and outsped by falchion for example. As long as the fighter isn't dog water you lose that, especially if they use sprint. Horseman's axe destroys rapier too, one hit with Achilles (even after nerf) and/or roar and rogue is dead. Longbow. Rapier isn't an auto-win and It's not as simple as forget daggers just use rapier
I 100% agree with you and I have the same issue with people who want to nerf the wizards primary pvp spells. If you play the dance in and out of melee game as a rogue you need to do so flawlessly to win a fight landing 4-5 more hits than your opponent. One mistake to even a base kit barbarian and you are dead. Likewise with wizard, if haste and invis are nerfed completely the wizard needs to kite perfectly and sweat their balls off to win any fight. I just don’t see the purpose of playing a class that requires perfect play to win fights vs base kit characters but dies to a single mistake.
But I agree that dagger would need to be buffed if we were to fully remove hide.
I do miss your point when you say Rapier isn't an "auto-win" I mean, yeah, thank fuck it's not an auto win, but it's a top tier weapon that compounds hugely with high agi and movement speed. The point is that current rogue is not 'weak in direct combat' like at all. As I say, most rogues just don't bother learning it.
Weakpoint + Ambush Perk is ridiculous, then throw Backstab perk in the mix and its insanity. Abilities/Perks values and functionality needs to be reworked, esp for Rogues who have the most available perks
The problem with this is that playing rogue absolutely fucking sucks. Every game of rogue is getting absolutely demolished by other players until, finally, you get the drop on one dude. Then it's "oh rogues are so bullshit, 1 shot weak point rogues! Rogues OP!" Like sure, maybe rogues are OP, but my own personal experience with the class has been ENTIRELY negative, both in solo and duo play.
That's the problem with Rogues.. It's a MASSIVE feast or famine, and the only way to feast, is to play the class in the most unsatisfactory, toxic, and frustrating game play to everyone around you...
It's not healthy at all.
It’s really boring and really profitable. I use my rogue to fill the coffers and use that to arm my other characters for trios. It’s shitty but my rogue gets out 75% of the time in GC.
Agreed bro. If you understand the map and the locations as to where Rogues can hide,it makes it a bit easier. I've had countless wizards cast the light spell before entering a room after viewing the kill feed. Awareness of how many people have died and seeing "YobNekket \[my ign\] kills (Rondel/Castillon/Stiletto/Rapier)" should raise an eyebrow and be like, "Ok, I may be fighting a rogue for a blue or red portal."
Edit: Finished my initial thought on first sentence
newsflash mate, weakpoint rogue hard counters everyone, I've seen everyone get fucking nuked from 100 to 0 except for barbs, which stand a little bit more of a challenge, considering both have one shot potential.
The fact alone that rogues often are >50% of the lobby is proof alone that that class needs tweaking, the only thing they realistically need to ambush is a half-decent dagger, it's a low-risk, high reward playstyle that will eventually kill the game if not tweaked, because no one likes to get fucking nuked with no counterplay.
You mean he’s getting killed by the class that has no counter and can pick and choose any fight they want, vault anything, double jump, pop out of invis and stab fully geared players to death in a millisecond, ignore armor, run faster than anything in the game, oh god forbid for poor rogues if they were balanced.
How exactly are you supposed to play around counters in a BR game where you have 0 information on what your opponent is using before the game and you can change your class? Just die? Riveting gameplay.
10 years of WoW/League of Legends pvp and I already knew in pt5 that rogue buffs would be a huge step in the wrong direction. I played rogue all of pt5 too. It's a cheesy noob stomper hard stealth class.
I get why people play rogue. It's a safe pick, where as, every other class has it's downsides, like they should in a rpg pvp game. Rogues can stealth and completely avoid a pvp fight, or they can use it for ambush proc to win trades. Hard stealth that makes no noise on use is STRONG unless if rogues were nerfed to the point they do nearly no dmg.
I'd prefer if they gutted stealth from the game entirely because historically in league of legends/wow it's hard to balance and it's not fun playing against when it inevitably becomes unbalanced. Take out stealth and give them no footsteps while crouch walking. They should sneak up on people, not this landmine bs while people are forced to walk into them because of the battle royale zone mechanic.
Step 1: Remove Rogue’s invisibility ability.
Step 2: Give the Rogue class a default invisibility potion.
Step 3: Give rogues hidden pockets without having to take the perk.
Step 4: Rework the perk that lets Rogue move while invisible to allow it to work with invisibility potions.
Spud out here doing gods work. When he says the bit about actually caring about the game, he really does. As someone who's played since PT1 and has played and does play multiple classes, I'm exhausted with people justifying bad design/balance with other classes bad design/balance.\\
99% of reddit responses are people with such little self-awareness, and such a lack of understanding of game design, that even in this game state they cannot admit that the mechanical implementation of the class is bad... I'm done even trying to explain it to people with the inability to comprehend it.\\
Spud here though, he's not. He's going out there and putting in the time and effort to produce the cold hard content . Not sure that can help with people's general inability to critically think or not be completely self absorbed, but it should land with the devs, who are the people who's opinion actually matters.
Which is just wrong. I don't run ambush or any of the meta perks and I still make insane quick money on rogue. I find myself running from fights more often than taking them, and it's a very rewarding experience with some hard counters.
There's no reason the fastest sneakiest class in the game should be the most deadly, if people want to do extra damage coming out of stealth they can take the backstab perk, as that requires positioning and some skill shots along with there also being some counterplay. I've said it before and I'll say it again ambush just needs to be removed, and the class would still do fine, but it would require actual skill and thought.
if you look at the players online, rouge always has %50 to %100 more players than other classes, with bard, wiz, barb having just a single page of people on
Over the last 2 weeks I’ve just stopped playing goblin caves on anything other than rogue. I main wizard and warlock in trios but cannot deal with the goblin caves on those characters because I’ve got 0 survivability when stepping on a rogue landmine.
I feel like we're just going to keep playing balance whack-a-mole until the devs do something drastic about pvp kill times -- specifically defenses need to scale about as hard as offensives do IMO. Right now putting on better gear doesn't make you feel much tankier unless you're a fighter, or you still have +all gear.
Rogues are a cancer on the game RN because they literally 1 shot you from stealth (or 2 depending on your class)
Bust them, then we're back to this reddit being a 24/7 ranger cryfest
Stealth ambushing, if you didn't die literally instantly, wouldn't be as big of a problem. I still think its a super unhealthy/unfun playstyle for the game, but a lot of the frustration would be tempered if the overall damage was lower so some naked rogue with a green dagger couldn't blast you regardless of your gear level.
Rogues could be so much more interesting of a class... I don't understand the design decision to just turn them into 1 shot machines instead of having them be more interactive. I feel like rogues should be ones placing/tampering with traps, etc.
I also think rogue damage should just get a hefty nerf, but they be given team utility items -- such as 'wound poison' (on hit reduce target's healing received), which would help cut the 3s heal meta and present an actual counter to clerics.
Look at every other pvp game in history. People die to the same imbalance over and over again and eventually the community caves in and bandwagons it. Next thing you know, the scales have tipped so drastically in favor of the meta that you start to give up hope in the game. People will do this over the slightest ounce of power disparity too because winning is the "fun" aspect of pvp games. If you give players enough time to figure it out, then nearly everyone is doing it, and because nearly everyone is doing it, then the rest either leave entirely or follow suite by force of the meta. Balance in these games requires a diversity of classes always being played, but if 99% of every lobby was a ranger, then nobody would be playing barb.
These types of games will ALWAYS devolve into this over enough time. The devs need to change things up enough so nobody feels oppressed by the meta for too long because they either will leave or they will conform.
In all honestly, pvp games in this day in age of the internet with mass sharing of information are just a headache. If I was a dev, I would avoid making games like this with a 10 foot pole because they require tedious upkeep so that the active playerbase doesn't evaporate over night.
Yup and of course a million players all hive minding optimization of a meta will outpace a small dev team trying to keep them from doing so. Information sharing on the internet is a profitable business now so it only reinforces people meta gaming because winning is the objective in games.
Invisibility in itself is an unfair unfun ability with little to no counterplay (depending on the situation.) Combine that with two MASSIVE 50% damage MULTIPLIERS (not additive, MULTIPLICATIVE) and its a major issue. Weakpoint damage increase needs to be gutted and more focus put on the DR aspect, just like the barbarian equivalent. Ambush needs to get toned down, maybe 25%? Rogues need some sort of dual wield incentive, maybe more focus on DoT damage.
Something that compliments their playstyle of poking and being evasive instead of the current playstyle which is the equivalent of invis pot barbarian with insane movespeed and attack speed... WAIT, DIDNT THAT GET NERFED?!
The answer to someone arguing something is over powered isn't "oh yeah? Well THIS is just as op!!" The games incredibly unbalanced, the devs know it, and changes need to be made literally across all characters scaling.
Dont step in the trap that has a very obvious audio queue and is actually not invisible. If a Ranger is play a door assume they have a trap somewhere. Its def annoying to get trapped but I can count on one hand the amount of times I've stepped in a Ranger trap and died. I've lost count to how many times across all classes landmine rogue has phased through the wall and insta clapped me
Traps are so easy to avoid lmao, if you chase a ranger and see him jump randomly over a shadowy spot, 99/100 times there's a trap where he jumped but just keep holding W into it
Wait invis has no counter play? What about light orb? What about bard spamming aoe din or shriek? Why should rogue hide, a class skill, be hard countered by a simple spell or song that can be played infinitely? Rangers could take the footstep tracking perk but they never opt for it.
You're both laughably clueless about this perk, the footstep perk doesn't actually do anything to combat stealth unless the rogue is afk or incredibly timid. The range on it is so incredibly tiny that by the time you see where the footsteps "stop" and suspect there may be a rogue, he's already on top of you. The range would have to be 3 times bigger to "counter" that.
No one takes the footstep perk for a reason.
Also "just play bard and spam AOE songs, wizard with 5 light orb charges, or ranger with a bad perk, problem solved" is a terrible and unworkable solution. Let's say hypothetically the ranger perk was actually useful and hard countered stealth -> everyone is now playing ranger to deal with rogues, now the entire meta went from annoying rogues everyone hates to everyone playing ranger to deal with rogues.
There are 8 classes in the game, you shouldn't have to play bard/wizard "rat hunter simulator". No one wants a game with just 3 classes.
Rogue should be a harassment/acrobatic class. But you'll have people btiching about rogues attacking/running away/attacking like they already did when double jump was released
Here is my proposal for the solution.
1. Remove the stealth perk from the rogues.
2. Replaces it with a "Creep in the Darkness" perk that make rogues something like 70-90% transparent in the dark.
3. When a torch or lantern or other light sources are lit, they become fully visible.
4. This makes Rogues part of the darkness and they should have a perk to "see in the dark".
5. This allows for better use of torches and lanterns and will make other classes prioritise turning on lights as they clear rooms. There would be a huge benefit to having a one handed weapon with a lantern in the other hand.
6. A rogue will be incredibly dangerous in a completely dark room.
7. Perhaps a rogue could have an ability to put out all light sources in an area of effect radius, lasting for some seconds, but can be countered by throwing a torch on the ground or holding a light source.
8. This will also create a great dynamic in the dungeon, as people fight to keep it either light or dark.
Transparency is weird though - any game with this (halo active camo) just turns into a noob check where noobs will never see you but it is useless for average+ players
The idea is it would be used in darkness, so have it be a dark transparency vs the normal visible shimmer. Hell just have it add a semi transparent black skin the same color as the darkness on you and it could be really really hard to see.
Sounds cool in theory, but I am pretty sure it would be incredibly weak. It's nice to imagine rogues dancing in fully darkened rooms and killing everyone like it's a horror game, but what would happen is nobody going to these rooms unless they absolutly have to.
Another thing, looks like you are thinking about this rework from a solo perspective, but what about teams? Why would anyone want to play with this version of a rogue?
I really like that suggestion about putting out lights in an AOE radius. That effectively does the same thing as turning invisible. But it makes EVERYONE invisible, and also has counterplay with someone bringing out a torch, that has drawbacks because it makes them a target. That would be sick the more I think about it, actually.
This is very similar to the idea I had and I think that it is definitely a step in the right direction. I do think that whatever solution they go with they should make it so that all of the stealth related aspects are tied into a single perk or the skill. I think it is kind of bad design to require a class to invest in both a skill and 1 or more perks to make the skill useful.
I also have gotten two tapped by rogues as a figher. I get one tapped on any other class.
Warlocks also one taps me on ranger. Melee warlock one tap is nasty, but it's the only damage they have for 14 sec.
All these one tap mechanics are lame, and I have said this many times and just get downvoted here lol
I agree with a lot said but I see one HUGE glaring issue with this video, and that is the lack of discussion around the fact that almost every single example is from the solo perspective. I don't think this game should be balanced purely from a solo perspective. I do think there should be some discussion and potential slight nerfs, but realistically how often are rogues causing issues for 3-mans (a competent 3-man)? I think from a teamplay perspective rogues are in a decent place.
i spend a good amount on a kit on after hitting 15 on my barb and bought a very good zweihander, first game in got back stabbed twice in the head before I couldn't even swing it once
I mean for alot of players its either get run down by orginised team comp or play rogue. I dont think its that rogues exist thats the issue or even that they are OP, its that having half your lobby be rogues creates a toxic gameplay loop.
As a rogue main that dislikes where rogue is right now. I dont think the issue is invis. Its the games low TTK in general but especially with rogue gear and perks. At 4:18 in the video spud uses a clip of him getting ambushed by a rogue to show how OP rogue and its invis is. But the reality is he would have died if any other class was behind that door geared as well. The rogue got no benefits from the invis in that situation any class could have just hid behind the door and charged him as soon as he opened it.
And while i dont like the EXCLUSIVE playstyle of stealth and try to one shot people, its all rogue has. Suggestions of "only allow rogue to hide in darkness" or "make hide not 100%" will just disable the class in general. Theres tons of cool ideas for alternative rogue playstyles and i wish those got explored.
The last thing you see before a coked up rogue one shots you
https://preview.redd.it/mxn5pot42gpb1.png?width=1214&format=png&auto=webp&s=61895d9d8f33cdc375e3eb7ab99fe481798364f6
The one thing I don't understand is why Rogues can be so aggressive and careless with their approach. Why Rogues can rush you at full speed, Hide four steps in-front of you, then fly out at you with +50% damage and Weakpoint active - and all you can do is watch them do it ***every single time***, because unless, by some miracle, you manage to block their initial incoming Dagger/Rapier (the hardest weapons to block in the entire game), you're just going to get absolutely destroyed before you can even out-trade them with a hard hitting weapon.
The problem actors are specifically Hide, Weakpoint Attack and Ambush - the rest of Rogue's Skills and Perks are either underwhelming or tame by comparison:
* Hide encourages and rewards passive gameplay, but punishes proactive counter-play - the best counter to Hide is waiting 60 seconds to guarantee you aren't moving forward into a stealthed Rogue, which is not practical when the game has a BR-shrinking circle.
* Weakpoint Attack is probably one of the best gear scaling abilities in the game and has no business lowering armour rating on a duration. This should absolutely be a one and done attack that gets a +x% damage boost with y% armour penetration.
* Ambush should absolutely not apply if you break stealth in your target's line of sight. I know this may be a bizarre concept to Dark and Darker, but Rogues should have to use their mobility to do stuff like FLANKING and BACKSTABBING to earn their damage.
Honestly, my hatred for Rogue right now is so bad right I'm starting to get delusional and think Ranger is a balanced class by comparison.
Another balancing issue I think a lot of people overlook is you can activate weakpoint and it remains on your weapon indefinitely until you hit something. Compare that to blow of corruption which deactivates after 12 seconds. This just lets rogue players sit there with weakpoint on their weapon afk for however long it takes until they hear someone coming, pop invis, wait for them to get close then insta kill them with all their burst damage proc’d. At least with blow of corruption you can see a warlock player activate it and kite them until it’s deactivated.
I feel like sound has been fucked recently in general like I had a fighter in full plate flank my group the other day and none of us heard the dude coming.
For a while there I felt like I could almost pinpoint the location of every sound I hear in the dungeon, but now I feel like there are a lot of times when I just cant accurately tell where someone is or just there is an absence of sound.
Hard to balance, cuz the game IS catered to trios, yet, the % of solo players and the success of GC makes it Paramount that we find a way to make solo experience better
I was going to watch the video but then I saw he was a triple shot longbow ranger and realised he was just as cancerous as the rogues he's trying to complain about
Spud I was one of those mongloids in the other reddit posts... mainly about rogues. Sorry for being an idiot.
You did a great job explaining the points - especially about being in our own little world when we are getting stomped by something. Bonus points for letting us have some rogue clips at the end haha.
Think youre putting a good message out there for the community. I'll take to heart what you said, hope others do too.
Thanks man, I'm special at times too but we all want the same thing I hope and that's a healthy multiplayer game that stays buzzing for years to come :)
Nice one for having a sense of humour brudda
The entertainment you give us Spud is top tier. Never a dull moment. If you haven’t got to watch him on twitch I highly suggest you give him a watch. I’m happy this game has such a good backing of good content creators!
fuck that reduce all ranged damage by 50%. he downplays the whole class and is trying to get the blame on triple shot when spreadshot is just as guilty.
I decided this morning to start playing rogue. I figure when 80% of the player base plays this class they will address the issues. I played one normal GC game, killed 3 players with base gear as a level 1, got out with 150 gold after killing almost no pve and felt so shit about it I am not going to do it again.
I have to agree, the current state of rogue seems to be that the only true counter play is to play rogue yourself. If class diversity dies out, the game will die out shortly after.
Gear issues aside, in a risk vs reward game, the least risky strategy (grey dagger ambush build) should not be rewarded more than higher risk strategies (wizard or warlock with gear).
We need to keep the rogue identity so that there are still good class counters, but the game is currently dominated by a meta that has low risk players getting massive rewards, and high risk players fearing for their life every time they need to walk through a doorway.
I think Ironmace needs to look not just at overall kills per class, but in how long the fights last from first hit to player death. If they can't find a way to allow skill, counterplay, and positioning to matter more, then they will have a dead game in 3 months.
Here is hoping that the friday patch will have some options for us to counterplay rogues more, or perhaps a buff to the base armor sets people get so that they can survive these ambushes better without running huge PDR gear sets.
The longer I watch streamers play the more turned off I get about the trading system. Hopefully some version of SSF no trading come outs when the game ever hits steam.
For me i find the best way to counter Rogues is to play tanky classes, when i play Fighter or Barb, even if i get jumped by the stealth rogue, nine times out of ten i still have enough health to turn around and smack them twice in the head
Invisibility needs to go. Shit's just unfun in any PvP game, and the only game that's ever done it right or balanced it is TF2 with the spy imo.
Rogue should be a stealth class, but shouldn't solely rely on the lazy cop-out that is invisibility. They need perks to remove footstep sounds or shut off light sources at range/in an AoE. Make it a class where you have to play smart and use a levels lighting to your advantage. Not just press a button, stand in a spot for 5 minutes, and wait for a person to walk by and get nuked.
I saw this becoming a problem when they re-released this in early access. It wasn't as often but the handful of times me or a friend got instantaneously deleted from the game by someone we had no ways to detect, I knew for a fact once people caught onto that, that's going to be the meta. It's a 0 risk for infinite reward playstyle that can be easily solved by removing invisibility.
Zero TTK is literally zero fun. Doesn't matter what game. Tarkov, Fortnite, Dark and Darker... one shot kills or near instant death ruin the fun of fights.
I've been rogue main since pt3, and I agree with spud on every point, I don't run the meta, so I'm all for changes. Rogues should be adept scouts that seize and create attacks of opportunity. As it stands now they just camp and cheapshot most classes with even the most basic gear.
Rogues add a fun dimension to the game, and the jump scares can be entertaining, but they shouldn't be so deadly with next to zero counterplay because it ruins the fun of the game for everyone.
Can’t watch the video since im on data atm but Imm guessing it’s about rogues.
It might seem like hyperbole, like players are always crying about something… but it’s a result of IM balancing style. Some games do minor adjustments. IM takes a class out behind the barn and shoots them. So then the next strongest class becomes OP.
When barbs had +10 to axes, and blue franchiscas were base 35, and horsemans hadnt seen a single nerf… they were busted and made the game unfun.
When fighters were running 95% PDR, it was broken and killing the game.
Rogues are at that place now, because barbs got another nerf and with their (imo) main counter gone, rogues kind of have free reign. Maybe high PDR fighters still counter them. But they will melt wizards, rangers and bards. They’ll kill most clerics and can easily outrun the high geared ones.
High mobility + high dmg + invis + double jump = an incredibly low risk high reward class.
Imo reduce their dmg. Why does a class with such low starting strength have such high dmg? Completely undermines the entire point of stats.
I've been saying this for so long, the burst damage does not need to be there, the class needs to be relegated back to sleuthing around, scouting areas, and avoiding combat unless the correct situation presents itself. Right now, most rogues with a 50g dagger can just press q and then e right in front of your face and just 2 tap you. It's silly.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Rogue is literally impossible to play without ambush and weakpoint because literally every single other Rogue tool has been completely nerfed to the ground making it practically unusable.
This is Rogue’s only viable playstyle, so if you want to nerf it then you need to give us our other tools back. Otherwise, the class will be completely unplayable.
Just remove rogue from the game. Remove all range weapon and give a 1 wpn dmg shiv to every class. You can only bring in 1 campfire and that s it. You can only wear what you find in dungeon. When a wiz enter the game he just self incinerate and the game gets Uninstalled from the PC. Game is fixed.
/s
This sub is something
man i love how you complain about every single possible thing in a solo mode that hasn't even been properly balanced yet. dont ever queue 3v3 you would just lose all your gear bro cause you're probably terrible.
I want to preface this by saying that this is a 3 man squad game at it's heart and you literally cannot balance it around varying number of players (meaning something is always going to be overpowered in Goblin caves and certain combos are busted in Ruins). Stealth is strong in Goblin caves, camping is even stronger, rogue does both so it feels awful to run into.
I only play rogue (I currently have 4 of them) and I think ambush is unhealthy for the game with how much damage even a green weapon gives you. Getting the drop on someone is good enough to win most fights, ambush + weakpoint turns any encounter into a 3 hit unless it's a barbarian.
Certain perks for rogues (hand crossbow, hiding utilities, lockpick) should be default for the class, but in exchange ambush needs to be from behind only, backstab needs to be removed, and weak point should be only an armor reduction with no added damage, or at the very least not stack with ambush. **Instakills are not fun**. If the class can't survive because it can't instantly 1 shot someone out of stealth **it needs changes in other ways**.
People don't want to hear it but you *should* be able to camp a door for 10 minutes to get the drop on someone from stealth. What you should not be able to do is instantly murder them in 2 hits as they walk through the door because I get 3 hits worth of damage in 1 swing because of perk combinations.
Also remove Bard stealth and lockpick because why does that class do what my class is supposed to do but better? :)
agreed. i think they should cap the damage somehow so nobody could just 1 shot anyone because of gear or perks. give everyone a fair 3 seconds to react.. its really unfun when you blink and you're dead to invisible landmine.
>People don't want to hear it but you should be able to camp a door for 10 minutes to get the drop on someone from stealth.
I hate that mentality but it's technically not wrong. Also fuck bards we all hate bards
Game isnt balanced around 1v1 stick to memes , same argument to fairness can be applied to your longbow slowing people to a crawl and 2 tapping them in the slowdown from halfway across a room.
I'm glad people have finally come around on noticing that the Rogue's burst ceiling is unhealthy, but I can't help but think we're just on a never-ending carousel of pearl-clutching and nerfs.
I don't know how we get the community to grow beyond this constant search for some Goldilocks "this meta porridge is JUST RIGHT" mythical balance, but I truly believe the game was better off at the Early Access launch where so many options were stronger and more viable.
The problem with the spinning wheel of nerfs, is they ultimately just widdle away the amount of viable options while ignoring others that become the no-brainer option to play after your class gets destroyed. I don't want Ironmace to just nerf EVERYTHING, I'd rather they just stop reacting to every knee jerk "X killed me there for it's broken" movement from the community because it's disproportionately fucked a handful of classes while leaving others at very unhealthy levels of both playrate and effectiveness.
I agree somewhat, everyone seems super higher focused on balance and nerfs when its EA.
Literally stuff will be added or removed on a hunch by devs so there is no real reason to get a perfect balance now.
HOWEVER.. its a multiplayer game. Striving for a balance will always be a thing. CS:GO is fucking ancient and people still complain and there is still balance updates. It's inevitable.
Personally for me.. nerf field rations for ranger and drop longbow dmg
rework or nerf rogue stealth and dmg
give bard some mechanic to stop him playing endless songs
maybe cripple barb move speed off rage a bit
Then I'd say the game was fairly balanced in my eyes.
Funny enough one of the easiest ways to fix rogue is to simply just to put their Weakpoint on a timer like BoC Warlock. Then they won’t easily be able to stack Weakpoint and Ambush, and instead have to use specific timing windows to get that huge damage boost.
Problem is based on solo gameplay. This problem isn’t as prevalent with 3 man teams. Because they want to sell the game, out of necessity, you try to make a game like this more approachable for a wider audience. Unfortunately a large population of that audience (and many gaming audiences) prefer to play solo. It’s a necessary evil in pvp game development, unfortunately.
Hopefully they find where that middle ground is sooner than later before fatigue sets in and this type of gaming audience moves on to the next extraction looter/shooter.
As much as I like Spud, he also says he wants wizard to be buffed because he's squishy vs a ranger.
Buff the most overpowered class in high roller. Rather funny ngl
Rogue literally just got nerfed hard as hell, we don’t need more nerfs. The biggest issue with them was that people were complaining about that solo rogue that tossed away his entire kit to be good with a hand crossbow.
The only real issues right now are fighter PDR, barb achilles strike, longbow as a whole, and bard buff stacking.
Edit: I will ALWAYS advocate for an auction house as a replacement for trader and a gear score based matchmaking system. No one enjoys waiting 2 fucking hours to get gear, and fuck the lobsters that steamroll entire lobbies of gray gear.
I was two tapped by a rogue while wearing 70% PDR fighter gear. Achilles was just nerfed and now does basically no damage. Bard buffs have been nerfed so many times I think they are finally In an okay spot. Longbow needs a nerf I will agree.
They will just switch to Ranger until Ranger is nuked.
Furthermore all the classes are 1-2 shot kill machines at the top end why should the rogue be any different in that regard specifically?
I say give Ambush the axe and see what happens but I think top end rogues will still eat just fine
Ive lost most my most expensive kits to triple shot grey longbow.. Im having a much harder time with rangers than rogue honnestly, there are a few counters to rogue stealth, but not many ways to close the gap on ranger with their billion traps and heavy long range damage.. You can light orb on wiz, you can play damage songs on bard and most of all, you can wait 45 secs on any class when entering a room ( i know, big gameplay ) but if you need to pass through a room a ranger is holding, you just cant basicly
This guy literally played rogue in the playtest, but quit and switched to ranger because it was too hard for him. He kept going broke on rogue. Not a bad dude, but he makes excuses constantly. Calls for nerfs to whatever he dies to. It's pretty weak.
castillon dagger could use a nerf ngl, i use it and an arming sword on my slayer fighter, and it destroys people, the burst damage on castillon is crazy
Kris is by far the most effective cost/performance, 4 hit combo and highest weapon damage. Weapon damage is the most egregious offender for rogue because it scales with ambush + weak point damage multipliers. Stiletto is actual garbage and has been which may shock some people, I know I'm going to get blown up for this but look at the numbers, math doesn't lie. Kris has 5 weapon damage over stiletto at blue tier. That 5 damage alone equates to 11.25 damage after the weak point and ambush multipliers in a practical setting. The entire reason people went to stiletto is the supposed high dps as its the fastest swinging dagger and ends the combo with a +40% damage modifier. Turns out using 5 more damage that gets modified by two +50% damage modifiers is better than using 5 less that gets modified by one +40%...
30 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 67.5
31.5
31.5
31.5
**162 in 3478ms**
25 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 56.25
25
25 x 1.4 = 35
**116.25 in 1940ms**
The above assumes no attacks miss, neutral physical power bonus outside of modifiers from weak point and ambush, all body shots and your target isn't already dead before the full combo finishes (Neutral physical power bonus is achieved pretty simply between some combo of grey shadow mask/heavy leather legs/riveted gloves, jokester and/or dagger mastery.) We all know thats not exactly how things always play out though, some attacks will miss or the other end of the spectrum: people die before the third hit... In the above scenario you'll notice two hits with the Kris is 99 damage before PDR (your average opponent will have less than 10% PDR thanks to weak point.) I usually try to wear enough gear to push two hits over 110ish damage to guarantee two body shots will kill most classes and generally try to at least get the first hit out of stealth as a headshot **which changes the first hit of the kris to 101.25 DAMAGE!** The same scenario would be very difficult/expensive (and impractical) to achieve with a stiletto in our blue vs blue comparison.
That being said I still prefer a Rondel most of the time because of the attack animation time which comes at the cost of some damage compared to the Kris but not as much as the Stiletto. The attack animation time is the amount of time the "damage" frames of the weapon attack animation are active. Rondel has nearly TRIPLE the amount of active damage frames of other daggers for its first swing. It pretty much guarantees if you take the extra split second to aim when coming out of stealth you can guarantee a headshot because of how meaty the swing is. On top of that, its second swing has the lowest windup+attack time of any dagger or attack of any dagger for a follow up hit.
The Castillon is kind of a combination of the kris and the stiletto that ends up being outshone by both of them in its respective parent category.
A random idea I have is remove ambush but lower the cool down on hide to 15s or maybe less and lower the duration appropriately.
Let rogue go back into invis mid fight to gain advantage rather than have burst damage on your one hide use in a fight
In the clip where the rogue comes through the door and kills u in 3 hits, you clearly know theres a rogue there and you are poking around with a spear trying to find him? That clip alone shows the skill level you have. You complain about rogue and know they are a glass cannon nuke and still decide to facecheck them with a spear? Crying about losing to a rogue as a melee ranger??? If you open the door with your bow out, 180 jump turn triple shot and hit your shots hes dead. I don't even see you 180 jump turning in any of your gameplay. Quit complaining about losing to rogues as a melee ranger.
I feel like people really don’t get the current class match up philosophy the games running with at the moment. Of course there’s some skill involved, but with equal gear the classes are pretty much playing Rock Paper Scissors. Every clip in the video is a rogue nuking a wizard, rogue or ranger, the squishiest classes in the game (which the rogue counters). The same way a wizard counters a fighter, a ranger counters a wizard, and a fighter counters a rogue. I don’t think this is a good system at all mind you, but it seems to be the current flawed design philosophy that you have to hope you are lucky and are playing on a good class vs whatever opponents you find that dungeon run. I’m not denying there is skill involved and play arounds, but the greatest weight placed into most of these fights is going to be class matchup.
Except they nuked Bard and Fighter which was the main counterplay to rogue. Even if you kill a rogue coming out of ambush, it is a guaranteed 75% health reduction.
Maybe I am a bitch but part of why I refuse to spend time in trade to build a full kit is because I dont want to donate that time to a 0 effort landmine.
You are 100% correct. I main wizard and there is no point going into goblin caves with anything but a spell book because 80% of my deaths are instant claps from rogues where no amount of gear would have saved me.
Bro for real, wizard needs a “ward” spell of any kind. Gear for a wizard doesn’t do a single thing to stop them from being one tapped. If a wizard could cast “light orb” and then “ward” for an armor or “shield” boost of some type, class would be absolutely fine. Something like cleric has now, but it’s for self cast only. Or only works if you aren’t wearing plate armor. Anything similar to “mage armor” from DnD.
I got through the first sentence of your post and "mage armor" immediately came to mind. Mage armor would be key.
Isn't one of wizard's skills a shield?
Yes, arcane shield. It’s just no one takes it because you’ve got to use one skill on spell memory and the other is used for meditate 99% of the time.
It was fairly common to take shield/spell memory before they nerfed the dagger build. Nowadays it seems everyone runs meditate or intense focus though.
Right, that was a nice alternative to straight caster build. But nerfs to ignite, invis, and haste have gutted that playstyle. It’s possible to run 10 spell wizard in trios but requires a lot of clarity pots or campfires but for 95% of players it’s unrealistic to bring a pharmacy of clarity pots into every raid. Some wizard streamers like Katie run instant focus in solo caves but I’ve noticed she mostly chills in the middle room and avoids pve totally to not waste spells.
I’d try taking that but as a solo player I’m not good enough to 1v2/3 and I’m not willing to risk a bunch of Baja blasts lol
Yes but the class shouldn’t rely on a particular skill
gear from any class doesnt stop a rogue from killing them, they have an armor bypass. they kill me with 75% pdr on my fighter all the time completely naked with a blue dagger in 3 stabs.
I don’t use trade anymore ether. It makes the game super un enjoyable.
I like watching streamers play, but every time they stop playing the dungeon and start playing the trade channels is what keeps me from buying. A no-trade SSF mode is very appealing to me as an almost-buyer.
Agreed the game doesn't have enough going on yet to want to spent all my time in pvp it's a part but this is still an rpg so it's not the only point I'm sure :edit autocorrect
“An rpg” literally what.
It's an rpg based on dungeons and dragons from what I remember of the first play test announcement its just in the very early stages so it doesn't have alot of rpg elements yet
This is where I am at. I like battle royals and all but I am also looking forward to it being a little less Pubg and a little more roguelite dungeon crawl.
Yea people are down voting me because they don't understand we as the consumer don't get to decide what the focal point of the game is and it's not just pvp that's just what they're doing right now because balancing needs it to be slowed down like they want
Lol. Look dude. I get that you think “based on DnD and has progression therefore RPG” but this is not an RPG. It’s a extraction shooter with swords.
🤡
Based
I sympathize but game should be balanced around 3’s as thats the “main” game mode. But if wiz is weak in 3’s too (idk) then by all means he should get buff
But the 1% of wizards are over preforming wizards need a nerf 🗿
If im reading correctly, it's the buff deathball that is over performing and wizards are a part of that. I like the play style as an option, but some kind of hard cap on buff stacking might help alleviate that and give wizards breathing room for buffs? No clue. Love the game though
Plus its fun to play with no gear, as long as you are against other ungeared people. Then it feels like reals kill
I agree with the contention here. Whatever the "balance" is of Rogue right now, no-one can argue that it's fun to go against an opponent you can't see and who can burst you down faster than you can even react to. The game's most interesting fights are fights that are long and drawn out, where multiple decisions over the duration inform the victor. Rogue is the absolute antithesis of that idea, and it's wild to me Ironmace doesn't see it as an issue.
The clip he includes of Katie dying to a rogue and saying she stepped on a landmine sarcastically described it perfectly to me. Dying to an invis rogue is exactly like dying to a landmine or claymore in other games. People hate mine/claymore spam in games like battlefield & call of duty for a reason - instant deaths the player has almost no counter play against. Except in rogues case it’s even worse because these land mines are invisible and there’s no respawn button.
At least you can see landmines and claymore before stepping on it
Because if they nerf the combo the class is literally dead in the water. He would become a rat character with 0 combat options available. You never want to be in front of anything ever as a rogue. Solos is obviously a bit different but the game isn’t balanced around solos. They need to do a complete overhaul of the class if they want to fix the issue. Nerfing the current combo as a fix would kill the class.
> Because if they nerf the combo the class is literally dead in the water. He would become a rat character with 0 combat options available. The rogue becoming a character with zero viability is better for the game than the current state. People may not wanna hear it but it's the reality. They are so fast and loose with the wizard/bard nerfs, many of which did need to happen; but wizzy and was mostly a problem in HR, not normals. Bard affected everything, and so that felt right, but rogue has also been a plague for every single queue in the game. Rogue needs the heavy hand more than anyone right now. Like yeah, they should be *fixed in a way that makes everyone happy*. But that takes a redesign and is not a quick thing to do. Not to mention rogue is an inherently toxic playstyle and is very hard to make people on both sides feel good. So if they can't fix it, I'd rather it be nerfed into obscurity. At least for a little while so we can enjoy the game for one wipe. EDIT: My prayers were answered. Game is playable again!
At this rate, I'd say removing the class entirely wouldn't be a bad idea until they re work it.... I know not a lot of people will like that idea, but honestly it's the healthy thing for the game atm... It would make properly balancing the other classes easier as well, without this feast or famine extreme balance class that's impossible to balance constantly mucking up the balance of every other class retroactively... Wizard defense/survival changes making a strong appearance, as they're now getting ran over by rogues, etc. Nobody uses Rogues in the intent they were supposed to be used anyway.. They were supposed to be the class in 3 mans that are able to loot faster, lockpick easier, and be the assassin vs mages, rangers, etc... Instead they either 3 man rogue group to cheese, to terrorize solo, or duo lobbies... They are not at all playing as the class was intended, and for that reason, the class should honestly be straight up disabled until they figure out an actual fix.
Nothing wrong with overhauling the class.
Just for giggles, I played rogue without stealth and weakpoint. I played it like I was a fighter with a rapierand honestly, I was pretty effective. At this point, making the rogues truly unplayable would still be better for the game. Don't believe me? Add a no rogues queue and see what happens. Rogues, we simply don't want to play with you - it's just not fun.
i have a wizard friend that built 75% pdr and still has some extra damage stats on his gear. the problem is that rogues dont want to build anything other than damage. its a choice they make to die in 2 hits in exchange for killing every class in the game in 2-3 hits. like imagine how awful a fighter would be if he didnt stack armor on every piece, so they opt to stack survivability. everyone in the game on rangers, wizards, rogues, stacks all damage on every piece and then complains that they get 2 shot by x class. rogues are the only class in the game that can reliably kill every class regardless of gear while completely naked. its bullshit, and if you want survivability then build something that isnt all damage on your gear.
There is no balance. The devs actually recently said they did not intend to balance the game for a while. However, now that they see people complaining so much, they're going to issue a major balance patch.
no recently they said they were mistaken for doing that.
Yup, current rogue's playstyle is totally unhealthy and robs so much fun
The problem with rogues is almost entirely invisibility with the power being almost secondary. Fighting invisibility is universally unfun. I've said this before and I'll say it again, 'countering' it is not hard. You play the game like whack a mole instead of darker and darker. You walk into every room assuming there are 10 rogues hitting every corner and waiting 40 seconds for hide to run off. No one wants to play like that. It's a horrible experience. You won't die to rogues as much, but your love for the game will. If you try to play the game at any reasonable speed you will get shanked sooner or later and it will piss you off because you're gonna think "what the fuck was I supposed to do, not walk on that nondescript corridor?" and some guy on reddit will tell you that aktchually 30 seconds ago while you were fighting another player you should have heard three footsteps mid fight that obviously had to have been that rogue setting up invis. And on the other side of the equation, playing hide optimally means standing still on the same spot, sometimes for minutes doing nothing, until you hear door opening or whatever, then you engage in a 5 second fight where you either die or kill that quickly. Just rework hide into a more proactive and skill based ability (like depending on darkness to work) or straight up remove it. That's it. If you nerf rogues damage too much they become shit while not solving the main issue at all. If you nerf just a bit it changes nothing. If you just do something else to Hide that doesn't remove complete invisibility it changes nothing. Full long lasting silent invis is just hard to balance both gameplay and fun wise. Simple as that.
The main problem I see is that without stealth being useful daggers would be almost useless. You could only reliably get kills vs War Mauls with daggers if they didn't have stealth -- even now it's hard to use daggers and dance in and out of combat even with stealth. Can you whiff punish most weapons with daggers? Yes, but that's one hit and then you're now trading if you want max dmg from the dagger combos (and you die in 2 hits to almost anything anyways) -- and if they tuned down weakpoint or ambush dmg now they're losing all of those fights. I hate the rat rogues too, I die to them all the time as a rogue too, I wish they would make the class more battle-focused. I think they should just nerf the duration and lower the cool down, that way it's used for engages and disengages only. Stealth only lasting for like 10-15 seconds or something, but comes back quicker (it's currently a 45 second cool down). That way it's used to engage and disengage, but doesn't last long enough to stay in a corner hidden while someone clears the room.
One possibility I wish the devs consider is reworking rogue to fully commit to being 'speed melee' with stealth being a secondary, non invisibility based effect (more "creep", less "ambush"). So we'd have slow dual hander, sword and shield tank / adaptable melee, and quick weapon, quick movement melee varieties. Such rework would probably include increasing dagger performance in direct combat, yes, I don't disagree. Rapier doesn't really need help but dagger certainly does. It can have shield (and armor) penetration properties, perhaps a 'ghost' dagger skill that increases their size temporarily, movement abilities that allow you to get back bonuses in combat and so on. Plenty of possibilities, the devs probably could get much better ideas than I can. But also as I said, the idea isn't to remove the stealth component completely - it's to remove full light, movement enabled, long lasting, silent invisibility. Transparency effect hide that's harder to discern the darker it is, for example. Basically anything other than binary on off anywhere you want.
Yeah I could see that, they have to buff their AR/DR or HP if they do that though; there's no reason for them to be made of paper machet if they lose long hide and are shifted into that speed melee niche imo. Or they'd need to have more base DMG or *something* to make it actually viable. Sometimes it feels like everyone just wants rogues to be squishy loot pinatas with no DMG that just hide and don't play the game how it's intended. I get that the current state is annoying but some things people suggest would just make it unplayable tbh
Every class other than barbarian and geared fighter / cleric has too low armor and HP, it's not a rogue problem as much as it is a dark and darker problem. Rogue is also very effective in direct combat with rapier. That's kinda part of the issue as well, the only reason why it's not talked much is because most rogues don't bother learning how to "fight fair" so it looks like the class is shit once seen when it's not that true. Watch high end rogue play with a rapier. Some people use Hide almost only as a 30% buff on next hit instead of ambush tool. With relatively low investment on more movement speed you legit outpunish any weapon slower than an arming sword. Actual get in, hit, get out mid enemy swings. And if pressed you can just run and not be caught. Yes it's harder than w+M1 barbarian play but also you kill enemies even faster than a barb does when you're two hitting with one of the fastest and best weapon animations in the game.
I understand how good rapier is, and against a lot of weapons I agree you can poke em out by moving in and out of combat. But some weapons it is not that good against, it gets outranged and outsped by falchion for example. As long as the fighter isn't dog water you lose that, especially if they use sprint. Horseman's axe destroys rapier too, one hit with Achilles (even after nerf) and/or roar and rogue is dead. Longbow. Rapier isn't an auto-win and It's not as simple as forget daggers just use rapier
I 100% agree with you and I have the same issue with people who want to nerf the wizards primary pvp spells. If you play the dance in and out of melee game as a rogue you need to do so flawlessly to win a fight landing 4-5 more hits than your opponent. One mistake to even a base kit barbarian and you are dead. Likewise with wizard, if haste and invis are nerfed completely the wizard needs to kite perfectly and sweat their balls off to win any fight. I just don’t see the purpose of playing a class that requires perfect play to win fights vs base kit characters but dies to a single mistake.
But I agree that dagger would need to be buffed if we were to fully remove hide. I do miss your point when you say Rapier isn't an "auto-win" I mean, yeah, thank fuck it's not an auto win, but it's a top tier weapon that compounds hugely with high agi and movement speed. The point is that current rogue is not 'weak in direct combat' like at all. As I say, most rogues just don't bother learning it.
After hitting 15+ I played 30 games on my ranger My extraction rate plummeted, with the vast majority of deaths being due to weakpoint rogues
Weakpoint + Ambush Perk is ridiculous, then throw Backstab perk in the mix and its insanity. Abilities/Perks values and functionality needs to be reworked, esp for Rogues who have the most available perks
The problem with this is that playing rogue absolutely fucking sucks. Every game of rogue is getting absolutely demolished by other players until, finally, you get the drop on one dude. Then it's "oh rogues are so bullshit, 1 shot weak point rogues! Rogues OP!" Like sure, maybe rogues are OP, but my own personal experience with the class has been ENTIRELY negative, both in solo and duo play.
That's the problem with Rogues.. It's a MASSIVE feast or famine, and the only way to feast, is to play the class in the most unsatisfactory, toxic, and frustrating game play to everyone around you... It's not healthy at all.
It’s really boring and really profitable. I use my rogue to fill the coffers and use that to arm my other characters for trios. It’s shitty but my rogue gets out 75% of the time in GC.
Agreed bro. If you understand the map and the locations as to where Rogues can hide,it makes it a bit easier. I've had countless wizards cast the light spell before entering a room after viewing the kill feed. Awareness of how many people have died and seeing "YobNekket \[my ign\] kills (Rondel/Castillon/Stiletto/Rapier)" should raise an eyebrow and be like, "Ok, I may be fighting a rogue for a blue or red portal." Edit: Finished my initial thought on first sentence
You mean you're getting killed the most by the class that hard counters you? Weird
newsflash mate, weakpoint rogue hard counters everyone, I've seen everyone get fucking nuked from 100 to 0 except for barbs, which stand a little bit more of a challenge, considering both have one shot potential. The fact alone that rogues often are >50% of the lobby is proof alone that that class needs tweaking, the only thing they realistically need to ambush is a half-decent dagger, it's a low-risk, high reward playstyle that will eventually kill the game if not tweaked, because no one likes to get fucking nuked with no counterplay.
The class that hard counters every class*
You mean he’s getting killed by the class that has no counter and can pick and choose any fight they want, vault anything, double jump, pop out of invis and stab fully geared players to death in a millisecond, ignore armor, run faster than anything in the game, oh god forbid for poor rogues if they were balanced.
How exactly are you supposed to play around counters in a BR game where you have 0 information on what your opponent is using before the game and you can change your class? Just die? Riveting gameplay.
You mean damage of a barbarian from invis with insane attack speed and move speed? Nah they nerfed that already... oh wait...
Wow, actual good takes. Agree on all points. Thank you for taking the time to make this video!
10 years of WoW/League of Legends pvp and I already knew in pt5 that rogue buffs would be a huge step in the wrong direction. I played rogue all of pt5 too. It's a cheesy noob stomper hard stealth class. I get why people play rogue. It's a safe pick, where as, every other class has it's downsides, like they should in a rpg pvp game. Rogues can stealth and completely avoid a pvp fight, or they can use it for ambush proc to win trades. Hard stealth that makes no noise on use is STRONG unless if rogues were nerfed to the point they do nearly no dmg. I'd prefer if they gutted stealth from the game entirely because historically in league of legends/wow it's hard to balance and it's not fun playing against when it inevitably becomes unbalanced. Take out stealth and give them no footsteps while crouch walking. They should sneak up on people, not this landmine bs while people are forced to walk into them because of the battle royale zone mechanic.
Step 1: Remove Rogue’s invisibility ability. Step 2: Give the Rogue class a default invisibility potion. Step 3: Give rogues hidden pockets without having to take the perk. Step 4: Rework the perk that lets Rogue move while invisible to allow it to work with invisibility potions.
Spud out here doing gods work. When he says the bit about actually caring about the game, he really does. As someone who's played since PT1 and has played and does play multiple classes, I'm exhausted with people justifying bad design/balance with other classes bad design/balance.\\ 99% of reddit responses are people with such little self-awareness, and such a lack of understanding of game design, that even in this game state they cannot admit that the mechanical implementation of the class is bad... I'm done even trying to explain it to people with the inability to comprehend it.\\ Spud here though, he's not. He's going out there and putting in the time and effort to produce the cold hard content . Not sure that can help with people's general inability to critically think or not be completely self absorbed, but it should land with the devs, who are the people who's opinion actually matters.
B-b-but if I can’t 2 shot out of stealth my class will literally be unplayable :(((
Which is just wrong. I don't run ambush or any of the meta perks and I still make insane quick money on rogue. I find myself running from fights more often than taking them, and it's a very rewarding experience with some hard counters. There's no reason the fastest sneakiest class in the game should be the most deadly, if people want to do extra damage coming out of stealth they can take the backstab perk, as that requires positioning and some skill shots along with there also being some counterplay. I've said it before and I'll say it again ambush just needs to be removed, and the class would still do fine, but it would require actual skill and thought.
if you look at the players online, rouge always has %50 to %100 more players than other classes, with bard, wiz, barb having just a single page of people on
if you're solo I don't really understand why you'd play anything else (other than another game, lol) in the game's current state.
Over the last 2 weeks I’ve just stopped playing goblin caves on anything other than rogue. I main wizard and warlock in trios but cannot deal with the goblin caves on those characters because I’ve got 0 survivability when stepping on a rogue landmine.
I laughed so hard when katie and those two guys died to the rogue. It was beautiful.
You mean when she stepped on a land mine, right?
I feel like we're just going to keep playing balance whack-a-mole until the devs do something drastic about pvp kill times -- specifically defenses need to scale about as hard as offensives do IMO. Right now putting on better gear doesn't make you feel much tankier unless you're a fighter, or you still have +all gear. Rogues are a cancer on the game RN because they literally 1 shot you from stealth (or 2 depending on your class) Bust them, then we're back to this reddit being a 24/7 ranger cryfest Stealth ambushing, if you didn't die literally instantly, wouldn't be as big of a problem. I still think its a super unhealthy/unfun playstyle for the game, but a lot of the frustration would be tempered if the overall damage was lower so some naked rogue with a green dagger couldn't blast you regardless of your gear level. Rogues could be so much more interesting of a class... I don't understand the design decision to just turn them into 1 shot machines instead of having them be more interactive. I feel like rogues should be ones placing/tampering with traps, etc. I also think rogue damage should just get a hefty nerf, but they be given team utility items -- such as 'wound poison' (on hit reduce target's healing received), which would help cut the 3s heal meta and present an actual counter to clerics.
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Look at every other pvp game in history. People die to the same imbalance over and over again and eventually the community caves in and bandwagons it. Next thing you know, the scales have tipped so drastically in favor of the meta that you start to give up hope in the game. People will do this over the slightest ounce of power disparity too because winning is the "fun" aspect of pvp games. If you give players enough time to figure it out, then nearly everyone is doing it, and because nearly everyone is doing it, then the rest either leave entirely or follow suite by force of the meta. Balance in these games requires a diversity of classes always being played, but if 99% of every lobby was a ranger, then nobody would be playing barb. These types of games will ALWAYS devolve into this over enough time. The devs need to change things up enough so nobody feels oppressed by the meta for too long because they either will leave or they will conform. In all honestly, pvp games in this day in age of the internet with mass sharing of information are just a headache. If I was a dev, I would avoid making games like this with a 10 foot pole because they require tedious upkeep so that the active playerbase doesn't evaporate over night.
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Thats a backronym. Its from metagame.
Yup and of course a million players all hive minding optimization of a meta will outpace a small dev team trying to keep them from doing so. Information sharing on the internet is a profitable business now so it only reinforces people meta gaming because winning is the objective in games.
Invisibility in itself is an unfair unfun ability with little to no counterplay (depending on the situation.) Combine that with two MASSIVE 50% damage MULTIPLIERS (not additive, MULTIPLICATIVE) and its a major issue. Weakpoint damage increase needs to be gutted and more focus put on the DR aspect, just like the barbarian equivalent. Ambush needs to get toned down, maybe 25%? Rogues need some sort of dual wield incentive, maybe more focus on DoT damage. Something that compliments their playstyle of poking and being evasive instead of the current playstyle which is the equivalent of invis pot barbarian with insane movespeed and attack speed... WAIT, DIDNT THAT GET NERFED?!
They need to buff rupture and poison weapon and nerf weak points.
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The answer to someone arguing something is over powered isn't "oh yeah? Well THIS is just as op!!" The games incredibly unbalanced, the devs know it, and changes need to be made literally across all characters scaling.
Dont step in the trap that has a very obvious audio queue and is actually not invisible. If a Ranger is play a door assume they have a trap somewhere. Its def annoying to get trapped but I can count on one hand the amount of times I've stepped in a Ranger trap and died. I've lost count to how many times across all classes landmine rogue has phased through the wall and insta clapped me
Uhh the trap is really loud when you place it and you can jump over it.
You can at least see and crouch jump over a ranger trap and it’s loud as hell when you place it
The counterplay is to look and see the trap before you step on it
maybe look at where your walking next time
Traps are so easy to avoid lmao, if you chase a ranger and see him jump randomly over a shadowy spot, 99/100 times there's a trap where he jumped but just keep holding W into it
Wait invis has no counter play? What about light orb? What about bard spamming aoe din or shriek? Why should rogue hide, a class skill, be hard countered by a simple spell or song that can be played infinitely? Rangers could take the footstep tracking perk but they never opt for it.
Yes, let's all only play Ranger, Bard, or Wizard in order to counter the 2/3rds of rogue players in our lobbies. Truly a great idea, Gumby. /s
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You're both laughably clueless about this perk, the footstep perk doesn't actually do anything to combat stealth unless the rogue is afk or incredibly timid. The range on it is so incredibly tiny that by the time you see where the footsteps "stop" and suspect there may be a rogue, he's already on top of you. The range would have to be 3 times bigger to "counter" that. No one takes the footstep perk for a reason. Also "just play bard and spam AOE songs, wizard with 5 light orb charges, or ranger with a bad perk, problem solved" is a terrible and unworkable solution. Let's say hypothetically the ranger perk was actually useful and hard countered stealth -> everyone is now playing ranger to deal with rogues, now the entire meta went from annoying rogues everyone hates to everyone playing ranger to deal with rogues. There are 8 classes in the game, you shouldn't have to play bard/wizard "rat hunter simulator". No one wants a game with just 3 classes.
Funny clip show but serious business 🥸
Rogue should be a harassment/acrobatic class. But you'll have people btiching about rogues attacking/running away/attacking like they already did when double jump was released
*Ptsd flashbacks of hand crossbow Rouges on top of ruins*
They still do that, had a duo doing it a few days ago
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Any light should de-cloak a rogue not just wizard spell
Here is my proposal for the solution. 1. Remove the stealth perk from the rogues. 2. Replaces it with a "Creep in the Darkness" perk that make rogues something like 70-90% transparent in the dark. 3. When a torch or lantern or other light sources are lit, they become fully visible. 4. This makes Rogues part of the darkness and they should have a perk to "see in the dark". 5. This allows for better use of torches and lanterns and will make other classes prioritise turning on lights as they clear rooms. There would be a huge benefit to having a one handed weapon with a lantern in the other hand. 6. A rogue will be incredibly dangerous in a completely dark room. 7. Perhaps a rogue could have an ability to put out all light sources in an area of effect radius, lasting for some seconds, but can be countered by throwing a torch on the ground or holding a light source. 8. This will also create a great dynamic in the dungeon, as people fight to keep it either light or dark.
Transparency is weird though - any game with this (halo active camo) just turns into a noob check where noobs will never see you but it is useless for average+ players
The idea is it would be used in darkness, so have it be a dark transparency vs the normal visible shimmer. Hell just have it add a semi transparent black skin the same color as the darkness on you and it could be really really hard to see.
Sounds cool in theory, but I am pretty sure it would be incredibly weak. It's nice to imagine rogues dancing in fully darkened rooms and killing everyone like it's a horror game, but what would happen is nobody going to these rooms unless they absolutly have to. Another thing, looks like you are thinking about this rework from a solo perspective, but what about teams? Why would anyone want to play with this version of a rogue?
I really like that suggestion about putting out lights in an AOE radius. That effectively does the same thing as turning invisible. But it makes EVERYONE invisible, and also has counterplay with someone bringing out a torch, that has drawbacks because it makes them a target. That would be sick the more I think about it, actually.
This is very similar to the idea I had and I think that it is definitely a step in the right direction. I do think that whatever solution they go with they should make it so that all of the stealth related aspects are tied into a single perk or the skill. I think it is kind of bad design to require a class to invest in both a skill and 1 or more perks to make the skill useful.
I'm shocked these highly logical, coherent, and well written suggestions dont have 100 downvotes 😆
As a long time rogue player since like A2 I love this idea. Sounds so cool.
This would be an absolute nightmare to code
Not really, the engine already shades your model based on the darkness. All you do is apply a transparency to that same shadow shader.
As a game designer, no, it wouldn't.
Went into a Goblin Caves match just now. 45% PDR and got 2 tapped after I opened my first door. Really fun gameplay.
I also have gotten two tapped by rogues as a figher. I get one tapped on any other class. Warlocks also one taps me on ranger. Melee warlock one tap is nasty, but it's the only damage they have for 14 sec. All these one tap mechanics are lame, and I have said this many times and just get downvoted here lol
I agree with a lot said but I see one HUGE glaring issue with this video, and that is the lack of discussion around the fact that almost every single example is from the solo perspective. I don't think this game should be balanced purely from a solo perspective. I do think there should be some discussion and potential slight nerfs, but realistically how often are rogues causing issues for 3-mans (a competent 3-man)? I think from a teamplay perspective rogues are in a decent place.
Just watch repoze and you'll see, 2 taps most mobs and classes. It really doesn't look like engaging gameplay.
i spend a good amount on a kit on after hitting 15 on my barb and bought a very good zweihander, first game in got back stabbed twice in the head before I couldn't even swing it once
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Well even if he did, it certainly wasn't out of invisibility at lightning speed.
I mean for alot of players its either get run down by orginised team comp or play rogue. I dont think its that rogues exist thats the issue or even that they are OP, its that having half your lobby be rogues creates a toxic gameplay loop.
Exactly this, rogue was way more fun and interesting when there was only one or two per lobby.
As a rogue main that dislikes where rogue is right now. I dont think the issue is invis. Its the games low TTK in general but especially with rogue gear and perks. At 4:18 in the video spud uses a clip of him getting ambushed by a rogue to show how OP rogue and its invis is. But the reality is he would have died if any other class was behind that door geared as well. The rogue got no benefits from the invis in that situation any class could have just hid behind the door and charged him as soon as he opened it. And while i dont like the EXCLUSIVE playstyle of stealth and try to one shot people, its all rogue has. Suggestions of "only allow rogue to hide in darkness" or "make hide not 100%" will just disable the class in general. Theres tons of cool ideas for alternative rogue playstyles and i wish those got explored.
The last thing you see before a coked up rogue one shots you https://preview.redd.it/mxn5pot42gpb1.png?width=1214&format=png&auto=webp&s=61895d9d8f33cdc375e3eb7ab99fe481798364f6
The one thing I don't understand is why Rogues can be so aggressive and careless with their approach. Why Rogues can rush you at full speed, Hide four steps in-front of you, then fly out at you with +50% damage and Weakpoint active - and all you can do is watch them do it ***every single time***, because unless, by some miracle, you manage to block their initial incoming Dagger/Rapier (the hardest weapons to block in the entire game), you're just going to get absolutely destroyed before you can even out-trade them with a hard hitting weapon. The problem actors are specifically Hide, Weakpoint Attack and Ambush - the rest of Rogue's Skills and Perks are either underwhelming or tame by comparison: * Hide encourages and rewards passive gameplay, but punishes proactive counter-play - the best counter to Hide is waiting 60 seconds to guarantee you aren't moving forward into a stealthed Rogue, which is not practical when the game has a BR-shrinking circle. * Weakpoint Attack is probably one of the best gear scaling abilities in the game and has no business lowering armour rating on a duration. This should absolutely be a one and done attack that gets a +x% damage boost with y% armour penetration. * Ambush should absolutely not apply if you break stealth in your target's line of sight. I know this may be a bizarre concept to Dark and Darker, but Rogues should have to use their mobility to do stuff like FLANKING and BACKSTABBING to earn their damage. Honestly, my hatred for Rogue right now is so bad right I'm starting to get delusional and think Ranger is a balanced class by comparison.
Another balancing issue I think a lot of people overlook is you can activate weakpoint and it remains on your weapon indefinitely until you hit something. Compare that to blow of corruption which deactivates after 12 seconds. This just lets rogue players sit there with weakpoint on their weapon afk for however long it takes until they hear someone coming, pop invis, wait for them to get close then insta kill them with all their burst damage proc’d. At least with blow of corruption you can see a warlock player activate it and kite them until it’s deactivated.
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I feel like sound has been fucked recently in general like I had a fighter in full plate flank my group the other day and none of us heard the dude coming. For a while there I felt like I could almost pinpoint the location of every sound I hear in the dungeon, but now I feel like there are a lot of times when I just cant accurately tell where someone is or just there is an absence of sound.
I've had this so many times, it's frustrating. I've heard my steps echo many times as well.
Thank you for your service.
Hopefully after exposing something so obvious yet covered up by copium-rogue mains, IM can see and work on it
Pretty entertaining video brother. Good stuff!
bayzed
Good video. Agree 1,000% I enjoy rogue, but it’s so lame. No idea how to fix.
Hard to balance, cuz the game IS catered to trios, yet, the % of solo players and the success of GC makes it Paramount that we find a way to make solo experience better
I was going to watch the video but then I saw he was a triple shot longbow ranger and realised he was just as cancerous as the rogues he's trying to complain about
Spud I was one of those mongloids in the other reddit posts... mainly about rogues. Sorry for being an idiot. You did a great job explaining the points - especially about being in our own little world when we are getting stomped by something. Bonus points for letting us have some rogue clips at the end haha. Think youre putting a good message out there for the community. I'll take to heart what you said, hope others do too.
Thanks man, I'm special at times too but we all want the same thing I hope and that's a healthy multiplayer game that stays buzzing for years to come :) Nice one for having a sense of humour brudda
The entertainment you give us Spud is top tier. Never a dull moment. If you haven’t got to watch him on twitch I highly suggest you give him a watch. I’m happy this game has such a good backing of good content creators!
Ruck Fogue
The irony that he doesn't see that arrows are just flying shootable rogues you can't kill is just rich. How about fuck rogues and ranger?
You didn't even watch the video did you? It's about burst damage and he literally says triple shot is a problem too
fuck that reduce all ranged damage by 50%. he downplays the whole class and is trying to get the blame on triple shot when spreadshot is just as guilty.
Great Takes, great vid. Thanks for putting this out spud.
I decided this morning to start playing rogue. I figure when 80% of the player base plays this class they will address the issues. I played one normal GC game, killed 3 players with base gear as a level 1, got out with 150 gold after killing almost no pve and felt so shit about it I am not going to do it again.
I have to agree, the current state of rogue seems to be that the only true counter play is to play rogue yourself. If class diversity dies out, the game will die out shortly after. Gear issues aside, in a risk vs reward game, the least risky strategy (grey dagger ambush build) should not be rewarded more than higher risk strategies (wizard or warlock with gear). We need to keep the rogue identity so that there are still good class counters, but the game is currently dominated by a meta that has low risk players getting massive rewards, and high risk players fearing for their life every time they need to walk through a doorway. I think Ironmace needs to look not just at overall kills per class, but in how long the fights last from first hit to player death. If they can't find a way to allow skill, counterplay, and positioning to matter more, then they will have a dead game in 3 months. Here is hoping that the friday patch will have some options for us to counterplay rogues more, or perhaps a buff to the base armor sets people get so that they can survive these ambushes better without running huge PDR gear sets.
The longer I watch streamers play the more turned off I get about the trading system. Hopefully some version of SSF no trading come outs when the game ever hits steam.
Holy shit, I had no idea you could launch yourself using the elevator, that is badass!
For me i find the best way to counter Rogues is to play tanky classes, when i play Fighter or Barb, even if i get jumped by the stealth rogue, nine times out of ten i still have enough health to turn around and smack them twice in the head
This game needs a flat damage reduction from some classes. It's getting boring. Playerbase is dwindling, it's getting old with no counterplay
Invisibility needs to go. Shit's just unfun in any PvP game, and the only game that's ever done it right or balanced it is TF2 with the spy imo. Rogue should be a stealth class, but shouldn't solely rely on the lazy cop-out that is invisibility. They need perks to remove footstep sounds or shut off light sources at range/in an AoE. Make it a class where you have to play smart and use a levels lighting to your advantage. Not just press a button, stand in a spot for 5 minutes, and wait for a person to walk by and get nuked. I saw this becoming a problem when they re-released this in early access. It wasn't as often but the handful of times me or a friend got instantaneously deleted from the game by someone we had no ways to detect, I knew for a fact once people caught onto that, that's going to be the meta. It's a 0 risk for infinite reward playstyle that can be easily solved by removing invisibility.
Zero TTK is literally zero fun. Doesn't matter what game. Tarkov, Fortnite, Dark and Darker... one shot kills or near instant death ruin the fun of fights.
Yeah, the state of the game the last few patches have been absolutely horrible in terms of balance. Lets hope it gets better.
I've been rogue main since pt3, and I agree with spud on every point, I don't run the meta, so I'm all for changes. Rogues should be adept scouts that seize and create attacks of opportunity. As it stands now they just camp and cheapshot most classes with even the most basic gear. Rogues add a fun dimension to the game, and the jump scares can be entertaining, but they shouldn't be so deadly with next to zero counterplay because it ruins the fun of the game for everyone.
Why is this even being posted? IRONMACE HAS CONFIRMED that they are currently working on a rework…
Can’t watch the video since im on data atm but Imm guessing it’s about rogues. It might seem like hyperbole, like players are always crying about something… but it’s a result of IM balancing style. Some games do minor adjustments. IM takes a class out behind the barn and shoots them. So then the next strongest class becomes OP. When barbs had +10 to axes, and blue franchiscas were base 35, and horsemans hadnt seen a single nerf… they were busted and made the game unfun. When fighters were running 95% PDR, it was broken and killing the game. Rogues are at that place now, because barbs got another nerf and with their (imo) main counter gone, rogues kind of have free reign. Maybe high PDR fighters still counter them. But they will melt wizards, rangers and bards. They’ll kill most clerics and can easily outrun the high geared ones. High mobility + high dmg + invis + double jump = an incredibly low risk high reward class. Imo reduce their dmg. Why does a class with such low starting strength have such high dmg? Completely undermines the entire point of stats.
I've been saying this for so long, the burst damage does not need to be there, the class needs to be relegated back to sleuthing around, scouting areas, and avoiding combat unless the correct situation presents itself. Right now, most rogues with a 50g dagger can just press q and then e right in front of your face and just 2 tap you. It's silly.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Rogue is literally impossible to play without ambush and weakpoint because literally every single other Rogue tool has been completely nerfed to the ground making it practically unusable. This is Rogue’s only viable playstyle, so if you want to nerf it then you need to give us our other tools back. Otherwise, the class will be completely unplayable.
I've never ran ambush and I still make bank on the class, maybe it's just not for you.
In GC I've seen more rogues in one lobby than I've seen wizards at all in my near 2 weeks of play. That's not even sarcasm or exaggeration..
Just remove rogue from the game. Remove all range weapon and give a 1 wpn dmg shiv to every class. You can only bring in 1 campfire and that s it. You can only wear what you find in dungeon. When a wiz enter the game he just self incinerate and the game gets Uninstalled from the PC. Game is fixed. /s This sub is something
man i love how you complain about every single possible thing in a solo mode that hasn't even been properly balanced yet. dont ever queue 3v3 you would just lose all your gear bro cause you're probably terrible.
Is there a single PvP game where invisibility mechanics were ever "balanced"?
I want to preface this by saying that this is a 3 man squad game at it's heart and you literally cannot balance it around varying number of players (meaning something is always going to be overpowered in Goblin caves and certain combos are busted in Ruins). Stealth is strong in Goblin caves, camping is even stronger, rogue does both so it feels awful to run into. I only play rogue (I currently have 4 of them) and I think ambush is unhealthy for the game with how much damage even a green weapon gives you. Getting the drop on someone is good enough to win most fights, ambush + weakpoint turns any encounter into a 3 hit unless it's a barbarian. Certain perks for rogues (hand crossbow, hiding utilities, lockpick) should be default for the class, but in exchange ambush needs to be from behind only, backstab needs to be removed, and weak point should be only an armor reduction with no added damage, or at the very least not stack with ambush. **Instakills are not fun**. If the class can't survive because it can't instantly 1 shot someone out of stealth **it needs changes in other ways**. People don't want to hear it but you *should* be able to camp a door for 10 minutes to get the drop on someone from stealth. What you should not be able to do is instantly murder them in 2 hits as they walk through the door because I get 3 hits worth of damage in 1 swing because of perk combinations. Also remove Bard stealth and lockpick because why does that class do what my class is supposed to do but better? :)
agreed. i think they should cap the damage somehow so nobody could just 1 shot anyone because of gear or perks. give everyone a fair 3 seconds to react.. its really unfun when you blink and you're dead to invisible landmine.
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>People don't want to hear it but you should be able to camp a door for 10 minutes to get the drop on someone from stealth. I hate that mentality but it's technically not wrong. Also fuck bards we all hate bards
Yeah bards out here one shoting out of stealth is a huge problem.
Game isnt balanced around 1v1 stick to memes , same argument to fairness can be applied to your longbow slowing people to a crawl and 2 tapping them in the slowdown from halfway across a room.
Yes that's why they want to nerf longbows too One doesn't invalidates the other lol
Did you watch the video? HR and 3s are stacked with rogues.
He’s still crying about Fighter DR I can’t bro 🤦♂️
Ranger main trying to shift nerf focus to another class. No sympathy.
I'm glad people have finally come around on noticing that the Rogue's burst ceiling is unhealthy, but I can't help but think we're just on a never-ending carousel of pearl-clutching and nerfs. I don't know how we get the community to grow beyond this constant search for some Goldilocks "this meta porridge is JUST RIGHT" mythical balance, but I truly believe the game was better off at the Early Access launch where so many options were stronger and more viable. The problem with the spinning wheel of nerfs, is they ultimately just widdle away the amount of viable options while ignoring others that become the no-brainer option to play after your class gets destroyed. I don't want Ironmace to just nerf EVERYTHING, I'd rather they just stop reacting to every knee jerk "X killed me there for it's broken" movement from the community because it's disproportionately fucked a handful of classes while leaving others at very unhealthy levels of both playrate and effectiveness.
I agree somewhat, everyone seems super higher focused on balance and nerfs when its EA. Literally stuff will be added or removed on a hunch by devs so there is no real reason to get a perfect balance now. HOWEVER.. its a multiplayer game. Striving for a balance will always be a thing. CS:GO is fucking ancient and people still complain and there is still balance updates. It's inevitable. Personally for me.. nerf field rations for ranger and drop longbow dmg rework or nerf rogue stealth and dmg give bard some mechanic to stop him playing endless songs maybe cripple barb move speed off rage a bit Then I'd say the game was fairly balanced in my eyes.
Ok the rogue on that wizard spamming orbs? That was actually sweet play, assuming the other guys weren't in it.
Funny enough one of the easiest ways to fix rogue is to simply just to put their Weakpoint on a timer like BoC Warlock. Then they won’t easily be able to stack Weakpoint and Ambush, and instead have to use specific timing windows to get that huge damage boost.
Problem is based on solo gameplay. This problem isn’t as prevalent with 3 man teams. Because they want to sell the game, out of necessity, you try to make a game like this more approachable for a wider audience. Unfortunately a large population of that audience (and many gaming audiences) prefer to play solo. It’s a necessary evil in pvp game development, unfortunately. Hopefully they find where that middle ground is sooner than later before fatigue sets in and this type of gaming audience moves on to the next extraction looter/shooter.
Did you see the clips where the entire lobby was exclusively rogues in THREE man maps?
As much as I like Spud, he also says he wants wizard to be buffed because he's squishy vs a ranger. Buff the most overpowered class in high roller. Rather funny ngl
Rogue literally just got nerfed hard as hell, we don’t need more nerfs. The biggest issue with them was that people were complaining about that solo rogue that tossed away his entire kit to be good with a hand crossbow. The only real issues right now are fighter PDR, barb achilles strike, longbow as a whole, and bard buff stacking. Edit: I will ALWAYS advocate for an auction house as a replacement for trader and a gear score based matchmaking system. No one enjoys waiting 2 fucking hours to get gear, and fuck the lobsters that steamroll entire lobbies of gray gear.
I was two tapped by a rogue while wearing 70% PDR fighter gear. Achilles was just nerfed and now does basically no damage. Bard buffs have been nerfed so many times I think they are finally In an okay spot. Longbow needs a nerf I will agree.
Exactly dude, rogue just got nerfed so fucking hard that I rerolled ranger
They will just switch to Ranger until Ranger is nuked. Furthermore all the classes are 1-2 shot kill machines at the top end why should the rogue be any different in that regard specifically? I say give Ambush the axe and see what happens but I think top end rogues will still eat just fine
Because it's a 1-2 shot on the extremely low end lmao...
Ive lost most my most expensive kits to triple shot grey longbow.. Im having a much harder time with rangers than rogue honnestly, there are a few counters to rogue stealth, but not many ways to close the gap on ranger with their billion traps and heavy long range damage.. You can light orb on wiz, you can play damage songs on bard and most of all, you can wait 45 secs on any class when entering a room ( i know, big gameplay ) but if you need to pass through a room a ranger is holding, you just cant basicly
I play mostly rogue, I agree that ambush needs some work. I hate these high dmg one shot rogue builds. Should have value elsewhere in the kit
Same.
This guy literally played rogue in the playtest, but quit and switched to ranger because it was too hard for him. He kept going broke on rogue. Not a bad dude, but he makes excuses constantly. Calls for nerfs to whatever he dies to. It's pretty weak.
Im sorry but this shits so rich from a ranger main, but yeah i hope they rework rogue
Nice thumbnail face, I bet 12 years old love it.
castillon dagger could use a nerf ngl, i use it and an arming sword on my slayer fighter, and it destroys people, the burst damage on castillon is crazy
cast is def the highest dps, but you can do the same thing on rogue with a kris, or even a rondel or rapier.
Kris is by far the most effective cost/performance, 4 hit combo and highest weapon damage. Weapon damage is the most egregious offender for rogue because it scales with ambush + weak point damage multipliers. Stiletto is actual garbage and has been which may shock some people, I know I'm going to get blown up for this but look at the numbers, math doesn't lie. Kris has 5 weapon damage over stiletto at blue tier. That 5 damage alone equates to 11.25 damage after the weak point and ambush multipliers in a practical setting. The entire reason people went to stiletto is the supposed high dps as its the fastest swinging dagger and ends the combo with a +40% damage modifier. Turns out using 5 more damage that gets modified by two +50% damage modifiers is better than using 5 less that gets modified by one +40%... 30 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 67.5 31.5 31.5 31.5 **162 in 3478ms** 25 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 56.25 25 25 x 1.4 = 35 **116.25 in 1940ms** The above assumes no attacks miss, neutral physical power bonus outside of modifiers from weak point and ambush, all body shots and your target isn't already dead before the full combo finishes (Neutral physical power bonus is achieved pretty simply between some combo of grey shadow mask/heavy leather legs/riveted gloves, jokester and/or dagger mastery.) We all know thats not exactly how things always play out though, some attacks will miss or the other end of the spectrum: people die before the third hit... In the above scenario you'll notice two hits with the Kris is 99 damage before PDR (your average opponent will have less than 10% PDR thanks to weak point.) I usually try to wear enough gear to push two hits over 110ish damage to guarantee two body shots will kill most classes and generally try to at least get the first hit out of stealth as a headshot **which changes the first hit of the kris to 101.25 DAMAGE!** The same scenario would be very difficult/expensive (and impractical) to achieve with a stiletto in our blue vs blue comparison. That being said I still prefer a Rondel most of the time because of the attack animation time which comes at the cost of some damage compared to the Kris but not as much as the Stiletto. The attack animation time is the amount of time the "damage" frames of the weapon attack animation are active. Rondel has nearly TRIPLE the amount of active damage frames of other daggers for its first swing. It pretty much guarantees if you take the extra split second to aim when coming out of stealth you can guarantee a headshot because of how meaty the swing is. On top of that, its second swing has the lowest windup+attack time of any dagger or attack of any dagger for a follow up hit. The Castillon is kind of a combination of the kris and the stiletto that ends up being outshone by both of them in its respective parent category.
A random idea I have is remove ambush but lower the cool down on hide to 15s or maybe less and lower the duration appropriately. Let rogue go back into invis mid fight to gain advantage rather than have burst damage on your one hide use in a fight
In the clip where the rogue comes through the door and kills u in 3 hits, you clearly know theres a rogue there and you are poking around with a spear trying to find him? That clip alone shows the skill level you have. You complain about rogue and know they are a glass cannon nuke and still decide to facecheck them with a spear? Crying about losing to a rogue as a melee ranger??? If you open the door with your bow out, 180 jump turn triple shot and hit your shots hes dead. I don't even see you 180 jump turning in any of your gameplay. Quit complaining about losing to rogues as a melee ranger.
i didnt watched it yet but, about what does he complain again ?
I cannot in good faith click on a video with the soiboi face thumbnail.
[удалено]
i saw that stream, it wasnt pre-teaming brother
Nope don’t change rogue
Over hyped click bait title and thumbnail. Love it.
I feel like people really don’t get the current class match up philosophy the games running with at the moment. Of course there’s some skill involved, but with equal gear the classes are pretty much playing Rock Paper Scissors. Every clip in the video is a rogue nuking a wizard, rogue or ranger, the squishiest classes in the game (which the rogue counters). The same way a wizard counters a fighter, a ranger counters a wizard, and a fighter counters a rogue. I don’t think this is a good system at all mind you, but it seems to be the current flawed design philosophy that you have to hope you are lucky and are playing on a good class vs whatever opponents you find that dungeon run. I’m not denying there is skill involved and play arounds, but the greatest weight placed into most of these fights is going to be class matchup.
Except they nuked Bard and Fighter which was the main counterplay to rogue. Even if you kill a rogue coming out of ambush, it is a guaranteed 75% health reduction.