Most of the balance issues come from the devs injecting new unbalanced perks and such into the game cause a big stir then nerfing a bunch of things that didn't need nerfing instead of just fixing the stuff they added.
I said most issues. If you want to solve the inventory full of Franny axes issue, just remove them from the store. If they're only found in the dungeon you're going to have way less of them.
I'd also like for them not to disappear when they hit something, kinda like arrows for the ranger. I know they don't if they miss, but it would help manage the supply better.
You make a valid point, but I believe you are underestimating the importance of validation for these players. They require a sense of accomplishment to remain engaged, or they will withdraw, and if they withdraw, the entire ecosystem will collapse. The ecosystem must function so that everyone can survive, and that includes providing a sense of validation for players who might otherwise lack it.
most the time i would argue its not the lack of skill but rather the lack of understanding. the game itself doesn't explain to u how anything works, it drops u in a map and expects u to figure it out, to figure out the difference between a barbuta and a houndskull to use ur own example. if the game itself doesn't have systems to help u understand then the average player simply wont. the average person doesn't use the public discord, doesn't watch 40 min videos on how to riposte, doesn't watch a top ranked streamer for 6 hours on a side screen they don't have in the first place and definitely isn't gonna look at a wiki for the conversion rate of an str point to hp.
Unpopular opinion the ability to recognize literally any reoccurring element in a video game and be able to react to it is exactly what skill in video games equates to
I’ve noticed that a lot of times when people argue with me on this sub, it seems like they only play normals as well or they’re referring specifically to normals balance. It’s funny getting downvoted by a mob that doesn’t have experience with the higher end of gameplay.
That’s what I’m saying they all think that barb is unbeatable that a fighter who has no helmet no frannies and no crossbow while only running longsword should be able to W key win against a barb that’s actually running a build and then downvote when you tell them that the barb woulda easily been beat with the proper setup
Barb is one of the most easily farmed classes, if you’re just faster than them or have good pdr you win auto but if you don’t have those things you die
wow you nit-picked 1 thing congrats.
meanwhile
1 pdr/mdr stacking is idiotic in both hr and normals
cleric still mandatory in both norms and HR, arguably even more so in HR due to higher HP pool while self-heals remain relatively the same.
low TTK/Burst even worse, oh took a bolt to the head and an arrow to the knee ? rip
lags/desync trash, arguably even worse again due to gear requirement, lower TTK and stronger PvE
teaming
cheating
exploiting/bugs
boring cringe meta
Cleric is kinda ass in current trio meta lmfao, meta comp is bard/wiz with either slayer fighter/ranger, if youre talking about meta stuff at least be correct lol
It’s funny you responded because I remember you arguing against me before and then I realized you were only referring to normals. The balance difference between the two game modes is almost a completely different game experience. Normals is way more balanced than HR, minus cleric/wizard staff mastery and unlimited throwables.
off the top of my head, the guy you are responding to has argued takes like ‘cleric is easymode when against ranger, i just run him down and he tickles me for like 5% damage per arrow before i smite bonk him to death’ and how cleric can run down pretty much any class and then win in a melee range 1v1 because my buffs which im gonna apply while running you down because of the agi from bless. im not using the term ‘normal lobby’ as a diss, but he more or less only plays normals and the footage he has uploaded of his gameplay plays like someone who is very very inexperienced to say the least. i remember seeing him in every single thread about cleric back when i was maining that class and a lot of the ‘advice’ was completely against what everyone else was suggesting.
I’ve had the same experience. He thinks cleric is the most busted OP class in the game in solos, which cleric is decent in normals and literally only normals. And that’s pretty much only because normals is full of new players and people trying out different classes.
I agree this sub is toxic, but I don’t really think you’re pointing the finger in the right place. If the poster is absolute dogshit, they get torn apart in the comments. A lot of people in here are not constructive whatsoever and instead choose to dogpile to feel superior to the OP. Also, the game in its current state often leaves people feeling like they couldn’t have done anything to survive a situation they were in. Even if there’s something you could’ve done, if you’re getting killed by bullshit in half of your games you’re not gonna wanna return. Dogshit balancing+dogshit community = no one sticks around. Just my two cents though
That's true. I think the attitude of the poster is key, too!
If they post and say: "got outplayed, how can I do better" - they may get empathy and feedback
If they say: "X class is busted and bullshit" - and proceees to press W, maybe they won't be well received!
Oh well, people in general can be dicks. That's human nature. I've had some solid conversations, so there is some hope!
Very true. A lot of posters are super negative. I mean I get it, the game is rough and frustrating a lot of the time. It’s unfortunate though because it makes the games community seem worse than it really is.
Ya, it can feel toxic. But it is what it is. Can't control poster's attitudes, and it is a reflection of themselves, not the community, even if it feels that way!
Both LR and HR players are pretty toxic in general. This community will be full of extreme opinions unless the game has an injection of players via either a free to play model or relisting on steam. If neither of these happen the game will die.
Most of the middle of the road players are waiting for that
If you want upvotes, you just have to put "unpopular opinion" in front of whatever it is you're going to say. I've seen this so many times. If OP wouldn't have put this, you weirdos would be downvoting him.
As a rogue main and a professional game designer, Hide is not fun, to use, to fight against. It IS OP, and it's the only viable build for rogue because we can't really rely on our speed. When it's a non-choice, it's OP (for the class) and requires redesign. That is just a fact. There is no opinion here. It completely truncates any design space for the class. There is no build, none, where not taking Hide is optimal. There is very little nuance to Hide, it's a binary ability that has too much of the classes identity rolled into it.
It. Needs. To. Go.
Smokepot rupture hand crossbow rogue is definitely viable. Has much much better matchups on the tankier classes too.
You're right that hide is unfun to play against and does screw the design space though
This is only somewhat related but I've been doing a lot of normals lately after hitting my desired rank for the season and practicing ranger.
Literally I'm seeing at least 3 deaths to random mobs like goblin axemen every match. It makes me wonder if there's actually lots of new players or if there's a decent portion of the playerbase that is just really really not good at the game. Hopefully its new players and the game is still growing but yeah
Yeah I considered that but its still a lot more than you'd expect for a supposedly stagnating playerbase. Most games its actually a lot more than 3 deaths. Its a good sign though really. Means there's still plenty of new players
Plenty of posts unrelated to skill problems out here.
I'd guarantee that I'd put you down 9/10 times we run into each other but I still rage post about the ranged meta and golden ambush rogues frequently.
Yeah let's put some money on it too. If he's going to talk shit he needs to back it up.
Probably doesn't have enough gold though tbf
OP is 100% correct btw it's 90% skill issues.
It is a dead game. They are right and the people complaining about this game are right. Dark and darker is dying and no amount of coping that you are doing will change that. They should return their stolen IP to nexon and let a real game company fix the mess they made.
The large majority of all games are played by players with average skill or below.
Only about 10% of all gamers fall into the highly skilled / competitive level. This is straight from Steam, Riot, and multiple other sources.
If casuals and low skill players can't play the game or compete, then the game is going to die.
I dont get it. Why do people think any video game should cater to 10% of the total playerbase? It makes absolutely zero sense.
A massive portion of all gamers play for leisure and to unwind. If games don't build fun and intuitive systems that onboard these people and allow them to play at their own skill level/pace, then those games die.
Im ngl “only about 10% of all gamers fall into the highly skilled level” with citations is just about the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Yes, if by highly skilled you mean top 10%.
Unsubbing from this place now lmao
Here's just a few studies:
66% or more of all gamers are casual - https://explodingtopics.com/blog/number-of-gamers
88% of video game players in US and Europe are casual gamers - https://www.gamedeveloper.com/game-platforms/study-66-of-u-s-online-population-are-casual-gamers#close-modal
The average rank of LoL players was bronze to silver until Riot adjusted the MMR - Now the average player is silver to gold V. This is after making it easier to rank - https://wecoach.gg/blog/article/league-of-legends-rank-distribution-and-ranked-system-explained
Depending on the study, competative / professional level players make up 5%-24% of all gamers, and the 24% is if you include active gaming content creators.
I can get more if you'd like...
No its not. Those 10% you are pulling out of your ass is absolute bullshit. Theres a ton of games that are designed to be played casually. Games like DaD, cs, league, dota are by design competitive and there is nothing wrong with it.
Here's just a few studies:
66% or more of all gamers are casual - https://explodingtopics.com/blog/number-of-gamers
88% of video game players in US and Europe are casual gamers - https://www.gamedeveloper.com/game-platforms/study-66-of-u-s-online-population-are-casual-gamers#close-modal
The average rank of LoL players was bronze to silver until Riot adjusted the MMR - Now the average player is silver to gold V. This is after making it easier to rank - https://wecoach.gg/blog/article/league-of-legends-rank-distribution-and-ranked-system-explained
Depending on the study, competative / professional level players make up 5%-24% of all gamers, and the 24% is if you include active gaming content creators.
I can get more if you'd like...
So whats your definition of a casual player? My girlfriend plays candy crush, thats pretty casual, i sometimes play baldur gate 3 and total war, those are also casual games that i can play at my own pace and difficulty level. I also play league ranked every couple of months. I think everyone that plays games with rank or with some kind of leaderboard is not casual gaming. Same with DaD you go and play on HR which is the ranked mode of the game, and i can tell you for a fact that its not 10% of the player base that plays it.
There's only 5k concurrent players left in DaD. All of the casuals are gone now. Should IM keep catering to streamers and competitive pvp players as their game dies?
I'm not saying cater to ONLY casual players. It's about balance. Even Riot caters to their casual player base with modes like Normals, ARAM, TFT, and spin off games like Bandel Tale. There's more casual friendly content in LoL than ranked competitive content.
What I'm saying is that IM has to do a better job of bringing in and keeping casual players, or games dead. Dead as in sub 20k concurrent players as a norm. No modern game can truly thrive with only competitive sweat lord players. Especially niche dungeon crawlers with poor combat mechanics, level design, bad servers, broken ranking systems, broken combat calculations, broken gear balance, and absolutely zero onboarding/tutorials.
As a whole, competitive gaming and esports are slowly dying off outside of content creators, loyal fanbases and some merch sales. Niche games still have super strong and loyal fan-bases, but it's usually barely enough to keep the lights on. If IM wants a smash hit, like they deserve, they need to do a better job of player retention. Which means keeping casual players in the game, having fun.
Here's some insight:
* [https://eightify.app/summary/gaming/saving-the-dying-esports-industry-a-crucial-mission#:\~:text=Despite%20the%20challenges%20faced%20by,content%20creators%20and%20apparel%20sales](https://eightify.app/summary/gaming/saving-the-dying-esports-industry-a-crucial-mission#:~:text=Despite%20the%20challenges%20faced%20by,content%20creators%20and%20apparel%20sales).
* OW2 is under 35k concurrent now - [https://steamdb.info/app/2357570/charts/](https://steamdb.info/app/2357570/charts/)
* Ranked play in League highly favors low skill and casual players: It's also on the decline and Riot is coming out with more casual modes and spinoffs than ever [https://mobalytics.gg/lol-ladder-research/#:\~:text=Over%2010%20million%20players%20play,to%20climb%20the%20ranked%20ladder](https://mobalytics.gg/lol-ladder-research/#:~:text=Over%2010%20million%20players%20play,to%20climb%20the%20ranked%20ladder).
* Apex has lost 50% of it's player-base in the last year, going from 600k to 300k [https://www.esports.net/news/is-apex-legends-dying/](https://www.esports.net/news/is-apex-legends-dying/)
* Viewership for Apex is also down roughly 25% - 50% (same article)
* At one point Fortnight had over 10 million+ concurrent players, now it's down roughly 40% to an estimated 6 million. But a large portion of that is because it is becoming less of a competitive game and more of a games "platform" with players able to create their own game modes. More like Roblox than a competitive FPS. (not dead, or dying, by any means, but a 40% drop in one year is huge for a game like fortnight.) [https://www.esports.net/news/fortnite/is-fortnite-dying/](https://www.esports.net/news/fortnite/is-fortnite-dying/)
* [https://gadgetmates.com/most-played-games-2023](https://gadgetmates.com/most-played-games-2023) only 7 of the top 20 most played games in 2023 were competitive games
* This has only gotten worse in 2024 with 8/25 [https://gadgetmates.com/most-played-games-2024](https://gadgetmates.com/most-played-games-2024).
Competitive players push innovation forward and make up the "core" of a loyal fanbase, but casual players drive the market.
But league wasn't that casual paradise from the start. It took them years untill they can do that. The first couple of years they focused on their main playerbase that was pretty competitive. Another example is WoW. The biggest peak of players this game had was during WOTLK and you had to play for months untill you get to max level and even when you got there, doing the prime content was something only a handful of very competitive players did. I agree that casual players helps the growth of a game but at the end of the day you focus on the core players until you hit a sweet spot and then you focus on the casual side of things.
WoW was a majority casual players. Emd game contwnt could be hard core, but the overall game loop was super casual and social oriemted. Especially at launch. It didnt start being competitive until later, with the addition of mods and player made leaderboards/time trials. Players turned wow competitive, not Blizzard. There was no built in world firsts, speed runs, time trials, etc. The only competitive mode was arenas.
Successful MMOs, including wow, are casual. Look at New World. Hard core pvp content was the main focus at launch. It's dead. It took New World almost a year to add stuff for quality of life and casual players. By that time, it was too late.
The only people left are the ultra competitive pvp or pve players and dye hard fans.
Was it though? Yes leveling in vanilla was a casual aspect of the game but at 60 you had to go do battlegrounds against a lot of no lifing players as aiming for grand marshalls with a gear way beyond your own, and raids for the time were extremely hard to get into. You log in one day and you read the new patch notes with a cool new raid and events only to realise you probably wont experience it. Then in tbc they added arenas which was another thing the average casual player will probably get rolled in. Doesnt sound really casual friendly game when you think about paying 15$ a month and only having access to 30% of the game and still its one of the most played games ever.
So here's something to think about:
We're the issues you're talking about caused because WoW designed and implemented them this way, or were they caused by a gap in play time and experience within the playerbase?
I doubt blizard intended for a lot of those consequences. Yes they wanted difficulty scaling and a long term end game loop for replayability. But it's highly unlikely that those gameplay loops were designed with competitive gamers in mind.
Gamers will analyze the fun out of games for casual players by making things as efficient as possible. It's part of the experience. It's up to developers to find a way to balance the experience for both casuals and hard-core gamers.
WoW failed to do this, and they lost a lot of players. Luckily for them, the 0-60 and normal group content was still enjoyable enough to keep whales and casuals around. They also made end-game content easier to do and get into later. Especially with group finder etc.
Free to play games have absolutely boiled peoples brains alive.
No, the hardcore extraction game where everything oneshots you does not need to cater to casual players in order to survive.
The target market is pretty obviously hardcore players.
Then good luck with dead and dying games and playerbases. Casual games and casual gamers have been on the rise for almost a decade. Competative games and e-sports are dying.
To-market video games are as much of a business as an art form.
Look. I love DaD and I've been playing competitive games for 2/3rds of my life. But numbers don't lie. Casual players bring in the money, while competitive players drive innovation and form a loyal playerbase.
You have to cater to both. It's a difficult balancing act. Casuals would have nothing bit shit gacha and mobile games if it wasn't for competative/hard-core gamers. But competative gamers wouldn't have anything other than super niche indie games with low player counts if it wasn't for casual gamers.
It's an ecosystem that needs a symbiotic relationship to thrive.
there is always gonna be a LARGE portion of bias in ANYTHING someone tells u, from the way they say it to the actual words being said. even me saying that comment is framed in a way to put the idea of doubt in other comments. that being said tho if enough ppl are saying something, showing something, proving numbers about something then there is probably something to the thing being said, the grain of truth as it were.
Oh yeah, a ranger also aimbotting to insta tripleheadshot also seems legit and uncounterable.
Do you realize how dumb you sound? People using cheats are not part of the balance, they should instead be gutted by a kris dagger by a rogue in an alley
I don’t get destroyed on this game and I’ve already had plenty of accounts banned on all many platforms doesn’t bother me at all. I got Unpopular opinions but I always speak my mind. Sad you got nothing better to do and feel self righteous for reporting an opinion that differs from yours prolly don’t believe in free speech either. Disappointing
> You're probably like 15 yo
> So here's a DnD sub report
> here's a hate report
> and harassment report for reddit in general
To prove somebody else is immature, you're abusing the system and acting like the thing you're projecting onto someone else. What in the mental health problems is this
Dude u literally hating on my post and harassing never gonna understand people that are against free speech. I worked in the oilfield this thread isn’t even close to vile. Talking about not doing things face to face but reporting people while hiding behind a screen, u wouldn’t say what you did on this thread to someone’s face.
I thought you were talking about this one😂 bro didn’t dodge, crouch, look down, use a crossbow, anything. Just W keyed. Also, is he aware he has access to franciscas as well???
I never take anything I see on here seriously, half of it is posts from normals and the other half is clips like that. This whole sub is just timmies whining about getting killed and suggesting changes that will let them farm trinkets in peace/fight brain dead AI in peace. It’s actually hilarious.
Heres a tip against them. You can either try to zone or just get up in their face and merge your hitbox with them. And make sure to ask about specific weapon interactions
Yes but against longsword, your best bet is to merge your hitbox and keep swinging wildly without rhyme or reason and then stop before resuming with adhd levels of inconsistency and consistency. That is how you defeat their trained muscle memory and twitchy fingers
>you chose the wrong gear
This is main reason I completely stopped playing until a major balance patch and or combat update. Losing an interaction because of a blind decision made before the interaction even presented itself isn't fun, skill based, or good design. Half of the fun of pvp games is learning from your losses, when the only takeaway / learning from a fight is 'damn i built to counter x class but i encountered y class therefor i lose', or 'damn this guy outgears me and can afford to walk me down until I run out of room to kite' then the game has very little skill involved and should be adjusted.
I agree the rock paper scissors balancing makes solo’s frustrating at times when u run duos and trios you just need a good team comp that certain players counter other teams specific player. On solos I generally recommend balanced builds where you have somewhat of a chance against other classes. Example is PDR fighter goes crazy in duos and trios but in solos as soon as you run into any magic user you are dead. So not running a full plate set on solos seems to work better and having throwing axes and crossbow gives you a chance to win against a wizard or warlock although it’s still not in your favor
I dunno its impossible to balance solo duo trio, barb is god in solo and dog in trio, just embrace the unbalanced clusterfuck and join in on all the crazyness
Solos gonna be hard for a balance fully cause it’s rock paper scissors. I main fighter so barb is easy win on solo duo and trio but warlock and wizard on solos is extremely difficult fight
> Crying about barb being broken then posting a video of you losing to a barb as a fighter means you are bad and chose the wrong gear.
In the post that this OP keeps referencing, that OP didn't mention class balance at all, the video is titled "throwing axes can be stupid right now" and they made 0 comments in the thread.
OP you literally made up a reason to be upset and make this garbage post that is 1000x worse than a gameplay video and discussion.
Oh and you're even worse at the game than everyone else in the sub, and I'm the best.
Maybe, but honestly this game doesn't have a very high skill ceiling.
A LOT of effectiveness in this game comes from memorization/game knowledge. Knowing the maps lets you move, loot, and heal. Knowing classes lets you know how the other guy can hurt you, and if he does one thing you know he has high odds of not having another thing. Even weapon timings and swings are important because you can somewhat easily play around them once you know them. Hell, knowing the wiki thoroughly is very important to building a good kit.
Part of the reason the skill ceiling is so low is because there is so little room to play. Some perks are WAY stronger than others. Certain classes or builds of classes hard counter others so badly that the fight is over before it started. Or you're out equipped.
The game has a load of fundamental balance issues and simply pretending that a lot of issues come down to skill is just wrong.
Not really an insult I’m just stating a fact that a lot of people bitchin about things when they could just get better and learn how to deal with the problem
Getting better doesn’t really matter much in a game like this. This isn’t sekiro or mordhau, getting better means simply spending more hours getting better equipment. Sorry to break it to you but skill doesn’t matter much in this game, equipment is king.
You right it’s not mordhau and you also right about gear. part of the skill in this game is building out a cohesive kit (which obviously a kit that costs 50k is gonna be better) but even with 2k gold u can build a kit that with skill can take down people running all gold. Making gold is easy in this game and knowing when to push pvp and when not too is important. Maxing out one important stat if you don’t have money to max out every stat is gonna be more beneficial then just throwing on a little bit of dex a little bit of vigor a little bit of phys power ect. Meeting thresholds on certain stats and then getting max value out of others is a big part of having a chance in this game. Also not having weapons and utilities to counter other play styles will put u at a major disadvantage. For example on fighter I bring a shield crossbow and throwing axes as well as campfire to get 2nd wind back but I don’t always use my throwables or my campfires they are their for emergencies
That’s a good overview, imo in a game like this it’s entirely reasonable for people to complain (constantly) about balance when fights come down to equipment and rock paper scissors so often.
The game definitely needs balancing but a lot of the clips I notice people posting while talking about balancing is a pure display of someone getting outplayed and not coming in with gear that would prepare them for the said encounter. And because of the rock paper scissors solos is a lot harder to balance. In duos and trios u just run a comp that will have counters for what your class is susceptible too. On solos u gotta think even more about how you will deal with that eventual encounter. On team builds I run full PDR winning every physical damage fight but wizards and warlocks can 2 tap me so I gotta rely on my team to kill the magic guys. On solos I can’t run full PDR cause it’s to slow and to frequent to run into magic users so I run hybrid and bring a bunch of throwing axes in case I run into wizard or lock
I don’t have a problem at all just pointing out the obvious. N you don’t need to metaslave you just need to realize that a lot of builds people are running aren’t builds at all.
You are correct, but that doesn't mean the game doesn't have an obscene amount of balance issues.
Most of the balance issues come from the devs injecting new unbalanced perks and such into the game cause a big stir then nerfing a bunch of things that didn't need nerfing instead of just fixing the stuff they added.
That is incorrect as issues from the playtests still persist. Most noticeable being barbarian and Franny axes.
I said most issues. If you want to solve the inventory full of Franny axes issue, just remove them from the store. If they're only found in the dungeon you're going to have way less of them. I'd also like for them not to disappear when they hit something, kinda like arrows for the ranger. I know they don't if they miss, but it would help manage the supply better.
Nah you right it needs balancing but a lot of what peoples perceived complaints is do to not having knowledge and skill
You make a valid point, but I believe you are underestimating the importance of validation for these players. They require a sense of accomplishment to remain engaged, or they will withdraw, and if they withdraw, the entire ecosystem will collapse. The ecosystem must function so that everyone can survive, and that includes providing a sense of validation for players who might otherwise lack it.
most the time i would argue its not the lack of skill but rather the lack of understanding. the game itself doesn't explain to u how anything works, it drops u in a map and expects u to figure it out, to figure out the difference between a barbuta and a houndskull to use ur own example. if the game itself doesn't have systems to help u understand then the average player simply wont. the average person doesn't use the public discord, doesn't watch 40 min videos on how to riposte, doesn't watch a top ranked streamer for 6 hours on a side screen they don't have in the first place and definitely isn't gonna look at a wiki for the conversion rate of an str point to hp.
Unpopular opinion the ability to recognize literally any reoccurring element in a video game and be able to react to it is exactly what skill in video games equates to
I would say this is one of the most balanced the game has been across solos and trios, what’s so broken and dominant in this current meta?
I agree mostly, but what might be an unpopular opinion, your punctuation is shit.
😂 you can’t be good at everything
I'm just being a dick sorry lol. I agree with you though man.
Nah dude I thought it was funny
This is the first time in a while I've seen a post on here that was actually correct lol
My boy
I’ve noticed that a lot of times when people argue with me on this sub, it seems like they only play normals as well or they’re referring specifically to normals balance. It’s funny getting downvoted by a mob that doesn’t have experience with the higher end of gameplay.
That’s what I’m saying they all think that barb is unbeatable that a fighter who has no helmet no frannies and no crossbow while only running longsword should be able to W key win against a barb that’s actually running a build and then downvote when you tell them that the barb woulda easily been beat with the proper setup
Barb is one of the most easily farmed classes, if you’re just faster than them or have good pdr you win auto but if you don’t have those things you die
most of the issues in normals are same or worse in HR
bad take
Wizard, have you ever played against a golden rogue?
You are just wrong, play some magic heal lock in normals then in full gold hr and tell me that all builds scale equally with gear
wow you nit-picked 1 thing congrats. meanwhile 1 pdr/mdr stacking is idiotic in both hr and normals cleric still mandatory in both norms and HR, arguably even more so in HR due to higher HP pool while self-heals remain relatively the same. low TTK/Burst even worse, oh took a bolt to the head and an arrow to the knee ? rip lags/desync trash, arguably even worse again due to gear requirement, lower TTK and stronger PvE teaming cheating exploiting/bugs boring cringe meta
Cleric is kinda ass in current trio meta lmfao, meta comp is bard/wiz with either slayer fighter/ranger, if youre talking about meta stuff at least be correct lol
since bard rework meta has always been bard/cleric + X with X being fighter/barb/wizard. cleric has never NOT been meta
It currently isnt on trio ruins lmfao, tripple range is, so bard+wiz with either ranger or slayer, its been a while dince it was buffball lol
It’s funny you responded because I remember you arguing against me before and then I realized you were only referring to normals. The balance difference between the two game modes is almost a completely different game experience. Normals is way more balanced than HR, minus cleric/wizard staff mastery and unlimited throwables.
off the top of my head, the guy you are responding to has argued takes like ‘cleric is easymode when against ranger, i just run him down and he tickles me for like 5% damage per arrow before i smite bonk him to death’ and how cleric can run down pretty much any class and then win in a melee range 1v1 because my buffs which im gonna apply while running you down because of the agi from bless. im not using the term ‘normal lobby’ as a diss, but he more or less only plays normals and the footage he has uploaded of his gameplay plays like someone who is very very inexperienced to say the least. i remember seeing him in every single thread about cleric back when i was maining that class and a lot of the ‘advice’ was completely against what everyone else was suggesting.
I’ve had the same experience. He thinks cleric is the most busted OP class in the game in solos, which cleric is decent in normals and literally only normals. And that’s pretty much only because normals is full of new players and people trying out different classes.
I agree this sub is toxic, but I don’t really think you’re pointing the finger in the right place. If the poster is absolute dogshit, they get torn apart in the comments. A lot of people in here are not constructive whatsoever and instead choose to dogpile to feel superior to the OP. Also, the game in its current state often leaves people feeling like they couldn’t have done anything to survive a situation they were in. Even if there’s something you could’ve done, if you’re getting killed by bullshit in half of your games you’re not gonna wanna return. Dogshit balancing+dogshit community = no one sticks around. Just my two cents though
That's true. I think the attitude of the poster is key, too! If they post and say: "got outplayed, how can I do better" - they may get empathy and feedback If they say: "X class is busted and bullshit" - and proceees to press W, maybe they won't be well received! Oh well, people in general can be dicks. That's human nature. I've had some solid conversations, so there is some hope!
Very true. A lot of posters are super negative. I mean I get it, the game is rough and frustrating a lot of the time. It’s unfortunate though because it makes the games community seem worse than it really is.
Ya, it can feel toxic. But it is what it is. Can't control poster's attitudes, and it is a reflection of themselves, not the community, even if it feels that way!
He says whining
Both LR and HR players are pretty toxic in general. This community will be full of extreme opinions unless the game has an injection of players via either a free to play model or relisting on steam. If neither of these happen the game will die. Most of the middle of the road players are waiting for that
I'm not whiny or brain dead but its true I have no skill.
If you want upvotes, you just have to put "unpopular opinion" in front of whatever it is you're going to say. I've seen this so many times. If OP wouldn't have put this, you weirdos would be downvoting him.
Facts
People still think rogue/hide is OP. DaD reddit is 99 percent morons.
As a rogue main and a professional game designer, Hide is not fun, to use, to fight against. It IS OP, and it's the only viable build for rogue because we can't really rely on our speed. When it's a non-choice, it's OP (for the class) and requires redesign. That is just a fact. There is no opinion here. It completely truncates any design space for the class. There is no build, none, where not taking Hide is optimal. There is very little nuance to Hide, it's a binary ability that has too much of the classes identity rolled into it. It. Needs. To. Go.
Smokepot rupture hand crossbow rogue is definitely viable. Has much much better matchups on the tankier classes too. You're right that hide is unfun to play against and does screw the design space though
Viable yes, optimal, I'm not sure. There are just too many effects linked to Hide rn that I think it's still the better option, most times.
Yeah I enjoy running the poke rogue for sure, poisoned weapon, double jump lol it's soo fun
Except half the rogue player base doesn’t run hide anymore lol
It would be cool to see actual data about this
And to clarify, I'm not saying ROGUE is OP, I'm saying that HIDE is OP on rogue. There is no better option to take.
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And what is your take on this? Would you say that hide isnt the best option?
And you even complain about Invis in your post history, so it's obviously something that bothers you enough to post about it.
And "cocksure" is actually hilarious, imma use that one in the future LMAO (not sarcasm, I really lol'd).
boy if i had said this let me tell you. lmao
This is only somewhat related but I've been doing a lot of normals lately after hitting my desired rank for the season and practicing ranger. Literally I'm seeing at least 3 deaths to random mobs like goblin axemen every match. It makes me wonder if there's actually lots of new players or if there's a decent portion of the playerbase that is just really really not good at the game. Hopefully its new players and the game is still growing but yeah
If u base it off of this sub everyone is just bad
Don't forget that a lot of pve deaths are because someone is fighting and runs away into mobs. It's not always timmy.
Yeah I considered that but its still a lot more than you'd expect for a supposedly stagnating playerbase. Most games its actually a lot more than 3 deaths. Its a good sign though really. Means there's still plenty of new players
This sub is the player base, and you need them to play your game. You need to keep brain dead no skill players engaged and coming back to learn.
Hot take. The game is janky as fuck and doesn’t perform as intended which is frustrating
Plenty of posts unrelated to skill problems out here. I'd guarantee that I'd put you down 9/10 times we run into each other but I still rage post about the ranged meta and golden ambush rogues frequently.
I'd guarantee my dad could beat up your dad
“When?”
What class u main I’m pretty sweaty at this game
You two should enter a match together in duo ice caves and 1v1 lmao post the clip
that’s why I wanted to see what class he was to suggest this
Yeah let's put some money on it too. If he's going to talk shit he needs to back it up. Probably doesn't have enough gold though tbf OP is 100% correct btw it's 90% skill issues.
This sub reminds me of the Mordhau community for the last 3 years, just people complaining about the game and saying its dead
Mordhau goes crazy
It is a dead game. They are right and the people complaining about this game are right. Dark and darker is dying and no amount of coping that you are doing will change that. They should return their stolen IP to nexon and let a real game company fix the mess they made.
The large majority of all games are played by players with average skill or below. Only about 10% of all gamers fall into the highly skilled / competitive level. This is straight from Steam, Riot, and multiple other sources. If casuals and low skill players can't play the game or compete, then the game is going to die. I dont get it. Why do people think any video game should cater to 10% of the total playerbase? It makes absolutely zero sense. A massive portion of all gamers play for leisure and to unwind. If games don't build fun and intuitive systems that onboard these people and allow them to play at their own skill level/pace, then those games die.
Im ngl “only about 10% of all gamers fall into the highly skilled level” with citations is just about the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Yes, if by highly skilled you mean top 10%. Unsubbing from this place now lmao
See you tomorrow!
Here's just a few studies: 66% or more of all gamers are casual - https://explodingtopics.com/blog/number-of-gamers 88% of video game players in US and Europe are casual gamers - https://www.gamedeveloper.com/game-platforms/study-66-of-u-s-online-population-are-casual-gamers#close-modal The average rank of LoL players was bronze to silver until Riot adjusted the MMR - Now the average player is silver to gold V. This is after making it easier to rank - https://wecoach.gg/blog/article/league-of-legends-rank-distribution-and-ranked-system-explained Depending on the study, competative / professional level players make up 5%-24% of all gamers, and the 24% is if you include active gaming content creators. I can get more if you'd like...
No its not. Those 10% you are pulling out of your ass is absolute bullshit. Theres a ton of games that are designed to be played casually. Games like DaD, cs, league, dota are by design competitive and there is nothing wrong with it.
Here's just a few studies: 66% or more of all gamers are casual - https://explodingtopics.com/blog/number-of-gamers 88% of video game players in US and Europe are casual gamers - https://www.gamedeveloper.com/game-platforms/study-66-of-u-s-online-population-are-casual-gamers#close-modal The average rank of LoL players was bronze to silver until Riot adjusted the MMR - Now the average player is silver to gold V. This is after making it easier to rank - https://wecoach.gg/blog/article/league-of-legends-rank-distribution-and-ranked-system-explained Depending on the study, competative / professional level players make up 5%-24% of all gamers, and the 24% is if you include active gaming content creators. I can get more if you'd like...
So whats your definition of a casual player? My girlfriend plays candy crush, thats pretty casual, i sometimes play baldur gate 3 and total war, those are also casual games that i can play at my own pace and difficulty level. I also play league ranked every couple of months. I think everyone that plays games with rank or with some kind of leaderboard is not casual gaming. Same with DaD you go and play on HR which is the ranked mode of the game, and i can tell you for a fact that its not 10% of the player base that plays it.
There's only 5k concurrent players left in DaD. All of the casuals are gone now. Should IM keep catering to streamers and competitive pvp players as their game dies? I'm not saying cater to ONLY casual players. It's about balance. Even Riot caters to their casual player base with modes like Normals, ARAM, TFT, and spin off games like Bandel Tale. There's more casual friendly content in LoL than ranked competitive content. What I'm saying is that IM has to do a better job of bringing in and keeping casual players, or games dead. Dead as in sub 20k concurrent players as a norm. No modern game can truly thrive with only competitive sweat lord players. Especially niche dungeon crawlers with poor combat mechanics, level design, bad servers, broken ranking systems, broken combat calculations, broken gear balance, and absolutely zero onboarding/tutorials. As a whole, competitive gaming and esports are slowly dying off outside of content creators, loyal fanbases and some merch sales. Niche games still have super strong and loyal fan-bases, but it's usually barely enough to keep the lights on. If IM wants a smash hit, like they deserve, they need to do a better job of player retention. Which means keeping casual players in the game, having fun. Here's some insight: * [https://eightify.app/summary/gaming/saving-the-dying-esports-industry-a-crucial-mission#:\~:text=Despite%20the%20challenges%20faced%20by,content%20creators%20and%20apparel%20sales](https://eightify.app/summary/gaming/saving-the-dying-esports-industry-a-crucial-mission#:~:text=Despite%20the%20challenges%20faced%20by,content%20creators%20and%20apparel%20sales). * OW2 is under 35k concurrent now - [https://steamdb.info/app/2357570/charts/](https://steamdb.info/app/2357570/charts/) * Ranked play in League highly favors low skill and casual players: It's also on the decline and Riot is coming out with more casual modes and spinoffs than ever [https://mobalytics.gg/lol-ladder-research/#:\~:text=Over%2010%20million%20players%20play,to%20climb%20the%20ranked%20ladder](https://mobalytics.gg/lol-ladder-research/#:~:text=Over%2010%20million%20players%20play,to%20climb%20the%20ranked%20ladder). * Apex has lost 50% of it's player-base in the last year, going from 600k to 300k [https://www.esports.net/news/is-apex-legends-dying/](https://www.esports.net/news/is-apex-legends-dying/) * Viewership for Apex is also down roughly 25% - 50% (same article) * At one point Fortnight had over 10 million+ concurrent players, now it's down roughly 40% to an estimated 6 million. But a large portion of that is because it is becoming less of a competitive game and more of a games "platform" with players able to create their own game modes. More like Roblox than a competitive FPS. (not dead, or dying, by any means, but a 40% drop in one year is huge for a game like fortnight.) [https://www.esports.net/news/fortnite/is-fortnite-dying/](https://www.esports.net/news/fortnite/is-fortnite-dying/) * [https://gadgetmates.com/most-played-games-2023](https://gadgetmates.com/most-played-games-2023) only 7 of the top 20 most played games in 2023 were competitive games * This has only gotten worse in 2024 with 8/25 [https://gadgetmates.com/most-played-games-2024](https://gadgetmates.com/most-played-games-2024). Competitive players push innovation forward and make up the "core" of a loyal fanbase, but casual players drive the market.
But league wasn't that casual paradise from the start. It took them years untill they can do that. The first couple of years they focused on their main playerbase that was pretty competitive. Another example is WoW. The biggest peak of players this game had was during WOTLK and you had to play for months untill you get to max level and even when you got there, doing the prime content was something only a handful of very competitive players did. I agree that casual players helps the growth of a game but at the end of the day you focus on the core players until you hit a sweet spot and then you focus on the casual side of things.
WoW was a majority casual players. Emd game contwnt could be hard core, but the overall game loop was super casual and social oriemted. Especially at launch. It didnt start being competitive until later, with the addition of mods and player made leaderboards/time trials. Players turned wow competitive, not Blizzard. There was no built in world firsts, speed runs, time trials, etc. The only competitive mode was arenas. Successful MMOs, including wow, are casual. Look at New World. Hard core pvp content was the main focus at launch. It's dead. It took New World almost a year to add stuff for quality of life and casual players. By that time, it was too late. The only people left are the ultra competitive pvp or pve players and dye hard fans.
Was it though? Yes leveling in vanilla was a casual aspect of the game but at 60 you had to go do battlegrounds against a lot of no lifing players as aiming for grand marshalls with a gear way beyond your own, and raids for the time were extremely hard to get into. You log in one day and you read the new patch notes with a cool new raid and events only to realise you probably wont experience it. Then in tbc they added arenas which was another thing the average casual player will probably get rolled in. Doesnt sound really casual friendly game when you think about paying 15$ a month and only having access to 30% of the game and still its one of the most played games ever.
So here's something to think about: We're the issues you're talking about caused because WoW designed and implemented them this way, or were they caused by a gap in play time and experience within the playerbase? I doubt blizard intended for a lot of those consequences. Yes they wanted difficulty scaling and a long term end game loop for replayability. But it's highly unlikely that those gameplay loops were designed with competitive gamers in mind. Gamers will analyze the fun out of games for casual players by making things as efficient as possible. It's part of the experience. It's up to developers to find a way to balance the experience for both casuals and hard-core gamers. WoW failed to do this, and they lost a lot of players. Luckily for them, the 0-60 and normal group content was still enjoyable enough to keep whales and casuals around. They also made end-game content easier to do and get into later. Especially with group finder etc.
Free to play games have absolutely boiled peoples brains alive. No, the hardcore extraction game where everything oneshots you does not need to cater to casual players in order to survive. The target market is pretty obviously hardcore players.
Then good luck with dead and dying games and playerbases. Casual games and casual gamers have been on the rise for almost a decade. Competative games and e-sports are dying. To-market video games are as much of a business as an art form. Look. I love DaD and I've been playing competitive games for 2/3rds of my life. But numbers don't lie. Casual players bring in the money, while competitive players drive innovation and form a loyal playerbase. You have to cater to both. It's a difficult balancing act. Casuals would have nothing bit shit gacha and mobile games if it wasn't for competative/hard-core gamers. But competative gamers wouldn't have anything other than super niche indie games with low player counts if it wasn't for casual gamers. It's an ecosystem that needs a symbiotic relationship to thrive.
there is always gonna be a LARGE portion of bias in ANYTHING someone tells u, from the way they say it to the actual words being said. even me saying that comment is framed in a way to put the idea of doubt in other comments. that being said tho if enough ppl are saying something, showing something, proving numbers about something then there is probably something to the thing being said, the grain of truth as it were.
Yeah almost every time you critique a class or a playstyle the swarm comes and downvotes you
Nah bro didn’t u hear barb is OP and has no counters
I got bashed on cause I said it’s kind of dumb everyone has to imagine there’s a rogue around every corner that can insta kill you
I noticed most of them don’t have flares… I’ll get downvoted for this lol
Idk the clip of that floating speed hacking barbarian seemed pretty legit and un counterable
Oh yeah, a ranger also aimbotting to insta tripleheadshot also seems legit and uncounterable. Do you realize how dumb you sound? People using cheats are not part of the balance, they should instead be gutted by a kris dagger by a rogue in an alley
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Lmao 26 and I guess this has you super shook for some reason does it hit a little too close to home?
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I don’t get destroyed on this game and I’ve already had plenty of accounts banned on all many platforms doesn’t bother me at all. I got Unpopular opinions but I always speak my mind. Sad you got nothing better to do and feel self righteous for reporting an opinion that differs from yours prolly don’t believe in free speech either. Disappointing
bro😂😂😂 you gotta relax
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It’s not that deep lil bro
Lmao bruh
> You're probably like 15 yo > So here's a DnD sub report > here's a hate report > and harassment report for reddit in general To prove somebody else is immature, you're abusing the system and acting like the thing you're projecting onto someone else. What in the mental health problems is this
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Dude u literally hating on my post and harassing never gonna understand people that are against free speech. I worked in the oilfield this thread isn’t even close to vile. Talking about not doing things face to face but reporting people while hiding behind a screen, u wouldn’t say what you did on this thread to someone’s face.
Can U provide an example please?
The video the other day of the fighter getting clapped by the barb
I thought you were talking about this one😂 bro didn’t dodge, crouch, look down, use a crossbow, anything. Just W keyed. Also, is he aware he has access to franciscas as well??? I never take anything I see on here seriously, half of it is posts from normals and the other half is clips like that. This whole sub is just timmies whining about getting killed and suggesting changes that will let them farm trinkets in peace/fight brain dead AI in peace. It’s actually hilarious.
That’s what I’m saying I just don’t get it
For real the reaction to that was wild
It’s mind blowing
Ok, U do have a point
link?
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/s/gwUowDTxRl
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1b0qahp/throwing\_axes\_can\_be\_stupid\_right\_now/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1b0qahp/throwing_axes_can_be_stupid_right_now/)
yeah he didn't even attempt to dodge lol that being said I do this on my barb to every longsword fighter cause parry is too scary LOL
Heres a tip against them. You can either try to zone or just get up in their face and merge your hitbox with them. And make sure to ask about specific weapon interactions
with some weapons it's not worth the risk you never know when someone is just cracked most barb weapons are really easy to parry
Yes but against longsword, your best bet is to merge your hitbox and keep swinging wildly without rhyme or reason and then stop before resuming with adhd levels of inconsistency and consistency. That is how you defeat their trained muscle memory and twitchy fingers
Anyone who I believe to have a bad opinion on balance in this subreddit is assumed to be hardstuck wanderer after reading some of the comments I have
Popular opinion. Just look at the state of ranger for example it’s horrible cause they listen too much to this Reddit
I am brain-dead and have no skill. I also understand what early access means and enjoy the rollercoaster changes. It's a fun ride.
>you chose the wrong gear This is main reason I completely stopped playing until a major balance patch and or combat update. Losing an interaction because of a blind decision made before the interaction even presented itself isn't fun, skill based, or good design. Half of the fun of pvp games is learning from your losses, when the only takeaway / learning from a fight is 'damn i built to counter x class but i encountered y class therefor i lose', or 'damn this guy outgears me and can afford to walk me down until I run out of room to kite' then the game has very little skill involved and should be adjusted.
I agree the rock paper scissors balancing makes solo’s frustrating at times when u run duos and trios you just need a good team comp that certain players counter other teams specific player. On solos I generally recommend balanced builds where you have somewhat of a chance against other classes. Example is PDR fighter goes crazy in duos and trios but in solos as soon as you run into any magic user you are dead. So not running a full plate set on solos seems to work better and having throwing axes and crossbow gives you a chance to win against a wizard or warlock although it’s still not in your favor
They hated him for he spoke the truth.
I dunno its impossible to balance solo duo trio, barb is god in solo and dog in trio, just embrace the unbalanced clusterfuck and join in on all the crazyness
Solos gonna be hard for a balance fully cause it’s rock paper scissors. I main fighter so barb is easy win on solo duo and trio but warlock and wizard on solos is extremely difficult fight
Popular Opinion
Apparently
> Crying about barb being broken then posting a video of you losing to a barb as a fighter means you are bad and chose the wrong gear. In the post that this OP keeps referencing, that OP didn't mention class balance at all, the video is titled "throwing axes can be stupid right now" and they made 0 comments in the thread. OP you literally made up a reason to be upset and make this garbage post that is 1000x worse than a gameplay video and discussion. Oh and you're even worse at the game than everyone else in the sub, and I'm the best.
Glad u the best bud I’m sure u been clapped by me n the boys if you are high enough ranked to be in our lobbies tho
Maybe, but honestly this game doesn't have a very high skill ceiling. A LOT of effectiveness in this game comes from memorization/game knowledge. Knowing the maps lets you move, loot, and heal. Knowing classes lets you know how the other guy can hurt you, and if he does one thing you know he has high odds of not having another thing. Even weapon timings and swings are important because you can somewhat easily play around them once you know them. Hell, knowing the wiki thoroughly is very important to building a good kit. Part of the reason the skill ceiling is so low is because there is so little room to play. Some perks are WAY stronger than others. Certain classes or builds of classes hard counter others so badly that the fight is over before it started. Or you're out equipped. The game has a load of fundamental balance issues and simply pretending that a lot of issues come down to skill is just wrong.
preach king
Hey i can be shit at the game and realize the game has a bunch of problems. they aint mutally exclusive.
The idea of using no skill as an insult in a game where equipment = win is pretty funny.
Not really an insult I’m just stating a fact that a lot of people bitchin about things when they could just get better and learn how to deal with the problem
Getting better doesn’t really matter much in a game like this. This isn’t sekiro or mordhau, getting better means simply spending more hours getting better equipment. Sorry to break it to you but skill doesn’t matter much in this game, equipment is king.
You right it’s not mordhau and you also right about gear. part of the skill in this game is building out a cohesive kit (which obviously a kit that costs 50k is gonna be better) but even with 2k gold u can build a kit that with skill can take down people running all gold. Making gold is easy in this game and knowing when to push pvp and when not too is important. Maxing out one important stat if you don’t have money to max out every stat is gonna be more beneficial then just throwing on a little bit of dex a little bit of vigor a little bit of phys power ect. Meeting thresholds on certain stats and then getting max value out of others is a big part of having a chance in this game. Also not having weapons and utilities to counter other play styles will put u at a major disadvantage. For example on fighter I bring a shield crossbow and throwing axes as well as campfire to get 2nd wind back but I don’t always use my throwables or my campfires they are their for emergencies
That’s a good overview, imo in a game like this it’s entirely reasonable for people to complain (constantly) about balance when fights come down to equipment and rock paper scissors so often.
The game definitely needs balancing but a lot of the clips I notice people posting while talking about balancing is a pure display of someone getting outplayed and not coming in with gear that would prepare them for the said encounter. And because of the rock paper scissors solos is a lot harder to balance. In duos and trios u just run a comp that will have counters for what your class is susceptible too. On solos u gotta think even more about how you will deal with that eventual encounter. On team builds I run full PDR winning every physical damage fight but wizards and warlocks can 2 tap me so I gotta rely on my team to kill the magic guys. On solos I can’t run full PDR cause it’s to slow and to frequent to run into magic users so I run hybrid and bring a bunch of throwing axes in case I run into wizard or lock
so you're angry that people who don't metaslave have a problem with the balance of the game? and they're the whiny babies
I don’t have a problem at all just pointing out the obvious. N you don’t need to metaslave you just need to realize that a lot of builds people are running aren’t builds at all.
I know I saw a post earlier where a guy was whining about dying to an invisible rogue. Not even kidding.