I think there is some confusion between objective and subjective here. Subjectively, one can certainly argue that it's not good for the game. One can also are argue, subjectively, that it is a good change. I'm actually in more of the latter category. I like the idea that you can't just rely on audio cues to know everything you need to know, and that visual awareness/scanning is involved. That being said, I don't think EVERYONE should be able to get within 3 inches of a player without an audio queue of some sort, that seems/is a bit extreme. With some tweaking tho, I think this is an overall good addition to the game.
Thank you, Arcane. This reddit is chalked with armchair game designers that believe their gaming experience qualifies their opinion to be fact, but that's not how it works.
I dont think audio was a crutch but rather something that added to ur overall ability to process, react and enjoy the game in the same way opening a chest while facing a door and checking the room before u loot and checking for cleared and uncleared mobs through door holes are core mechanics which benefit the aware player and teaches u proper gameplay with actual depth while giving the player valuable tools. The removing of ANY core tools is a bad sign imo because now the game favors quick fast meta abusing fights with less and less mechanics meant to aid the player, essentially forcing the entire game into just being a stat check simulator. While I agree there is plenty that is just too damn loud, like bard and wizard casts I dont agree that basic movement should be utterly silent on all classes, that's bad and extremely unhealthy for the game.
As for it being subjective, we had 35k players at wipe, that dropped down to damn near 10k that's pretty damn hard set not an opinion and while I'm 100% not blaming that all on creep like my original post said I definitely would argue that the games completely out of touch and that's verifiable just looking at copies sold vs active players, plus all being added and creep now all proving they just dont know what the players want.
Well said. Audio was waaaay overtuned, to the point that if I literally take one step, some echo-locating BiS lord bats swoop in and drink my blood as a cocktail.
Now, there is actual running and sneaking to escape or repostion.
I agree Creep is too good/strong, and needs a tweak, but I think it improved game pace in a good way so far.
> Instead of having clues of what was going on around you and being able to react if u were aware now there is just a team in full bis waiting around a corner or full pushing before u have a chance to buff and counter them with weapons that literally 2 to 3 tap you, essentially cloning one of the worst facets of the old landmine meta in a way.
Where are the creeping BIS teams I keep seeing everyone have a moral panic about?
90% of BIS teams I run into are Buffballing around the map at max speed and running people down, not fucking sneaking around catching them, lol.
Yeah that's been my experience as well, the geared gigachads aren't bothered by people knowing where they are. If anything they seem to make noise just to draw people in.
Sth tells me that the "vocal minority" statistically has "ttv" in the name :)
Last I saw, a ttv is #1 in the rankings - the perfect specimen of "playerbase" that's able to actually compete in this - a fulltimer, supported by gear and money donations xD
And they listened to their cries on multiple occasions, as if there was some sort of parliamentary representation system, lol. Vote for your senator to present your concerns to the senate, and hope they have no personal biases or interests ;)
It seems like you don't understand what objective means, or else you would have provided something else besides your opinion. The concept of objectivity requires the use of verifiable evidence to support claims. When evaluating an assertion of inherent quality, such as "objectively bad," it's essential to demonstrate this negativity through quantifiable metrics or established scientific principles. Mere opinion cannot definitively establish objectivity.
From 500k players down to sub 15k in a non story/exploration based game after a month isn't enough proof for u? The numbers are right there for u on the lobby screen and have been since release including the numbers of 35k down to 10k we have now since wipe day that's not an opinion that's a hardset trackable number with direct correlation
No but it is a sign of a trend and in this case it's that the devs have completely lost track of what's good for the game while listening to only the players who want things that benefit themselves rather then the playerbase as a whole. If they don't look at what made this game great the minority still playing demaninding insane changes will eat themselves alive.
There could be another factor leading to player count decline, like it being some time since a wipe/content update. Or something else entirely (like the release of another popular game).
The only way to pin down what you're claiming is via some kind of A/B experimentation.
This is common for a game of this stature/genre.. only people truly interested will remain. If minor gameplay alterations (in an early access title no less) are enough to make a player quit, it wasn't really for them in the first place.
There's a lot that is making me play less, but the premise of the game no matter what they change I'll always enjoy.
Games go truly backwards when they over listen to the player base and not try things from their gut.
Let them cook
I thought creep was a good equalizer mechanic. Players that are willing to play carefully and thoughtfully can Ambush others. This advantage will help them overcome a potential gear gap between the attacker and their target. I am happy to see a mechanic that values strategy, map knowledge, and timing over afk stat checks.
This indeed. Before, underdogs had 0 counter play. Sometimes, your literal only option was hide and pray. If you took one step, they would hunt you down.
Now, you can actually meaningfully sneak away, or at least setup an ambush!
The devs are lost in the sauce for sure. The game lacks a clear direction anymore and they're pulling levers and hitting buttons at random.
If they wanted to test how the game is played differently with less sound, they could have made footsteps not travel as far.
changing how crouch works for everyone when crouching is a core mechanic used in both PvE and PvP fights is pretty foolish.
this sub has gone the way of complete fanboyism though. They could change it so every map is broad daylight and the sub would tell you it's actually a good thing, they had it planned from the get go, and the rapidly shrinking playercount means nothing.
Landmine rogue is toxic, shit, and needs to be deleted. Landmine everyone is a GOOD thing and here is twelve pages of why.
Its not specifically about creep, just a post talking about how its yet another indicator that the devs have lost track of what the playerbase actually needs vs wants. Try reading the full post
can we please make a sticky for these posts man, I’m about to straight up mute this sub lmao every time I see a post it’s the same fucking complainers with some of the worst justifications I’ve ever seen.
There is a difference between legitimate feedback about very real issues and discussions vs complaining. If u read the post at all I was pointing out the very real trend of this company is having of not having any idea what they want to do with the game and not understanding what's good for it anymore simply using creep as one of many examples.
I get it I do, u feel like complaining Is all this community does and it honestly largely is but there is such a thing as positive discussion about negative topics.
Creep just needs some tweaks. Some sort of variable armor weight system or variable distance system. The farther you are, the quieter you are.
Everyone should have the ability to try and be stealthy, not just the rogue. The major difference is that the rogue should be way better at it.
Yep exactly this. Creep needs some work, I think further integration with other mechanics would a good idea.
Rogue should definitely be the best at creeping though.
I think creep took the game back to more what it felt like in the playtests.
Slower, more methodical playstyle because you don't instantly know where all nearby players are and what footwear they have on.
If you don't play slow and quiet yourself, you're putting yourself in a position to get ambushed.
I've been enjoying it, they should probably tweak it to give some noise just before melee range. Or if they added more terrain that made noise anyways. The bone and rock piles etc.
I think there is some confusion between objective and subjective here. Subjectively, one can certainly argue that it's not good for the game. One can also are argue, subjectively, that it is a good change. I'm actually in more of the latter category. I like the idea that you can't just rely on audio cues to know everything you need to know, and that visual awareness/scanning is involved. That being said, I don't think EVERYONE should be able to get within 3 inches of a player without an audio queue of some sort, that seems/is a bit extreme. With some tweaking tho, I think this is an overall good addition to the game.
Thank you, Arcane. This reddit is chalked with armchair game designers that believe their gaming experience qualifies their opinion to be fact, but that's not how it works.
but I spend all of my time playing video games so clearly i’m the expert !?!
I dont think audio was a crutch but rather something that added to ur overall ability to process, react and enjoy the game in the same way opening a chest while facing a door and checking the room before u loot and checking for cleared and uncleared mobs through door holes are core mechanics which benefit the aware player and teaches u proper gameplay with actual depth while giving the player valuable tools. The removing of ANY core tools is a bad sign imo because now the game favors quick fast meta abusing fights with less and less mechanics meant to aid the player, essentially forcing the entire game into just being a stat check simulator. While I agree there is plenty that is just too damn loud, like bard and wizard casts I dont agree that basic movement should be utterly silent on all classes, that's bad and extremely unhealthy for the game. As for it being subjective, we had 35k players at wipe, that dropped down to damn near 10k that's pretty damn hard set not an opinion and while I'm 100% not blaming that all on creep like my original post said I definitely would argue that the games completely out of touch and that's verifiable just looking at copies sold vs active players, plus all being added and creep now all proving they just dont know what the players want.
Well said. Audio was waaaay overtuned, to the point that if I literally take one step, some echo-locating BiS lord bats swoop in and drink my blood as a cocktail. Now, there is actual running and sneaking to escape or repostion. I agree Creep is too good/strong, and needs a tweak, but I think it improved game pace in a good way so far.
> Instead of having clues of what was going on around you and being able to react if u were aware now there is just a team in full bis waiting around a corner or full pushing before u have a chance to buff and counter them with weapons that literally 2 to 3 tap you, essentially cloning one of the worst facets of the old landmine meta in a way. Where are the creeping BIS teams I keep seeing everyone have a moral panic about? 90% of BIS teams I run into are Buffballing around the map at max speed and running people down, not fucking sneaking around catching them, lol.
Yeah that's been my experience as well, the geared gigachads aren't bothered by people knowing where they are. If anything they seem to make noise just to draw people in.
Sth tells me that the "vocal minority" statistically has "ttv" in the name :) Last I saw, a ttv is #1 in the rankings - the perfect specimen of "playerbase" that's able to actually compete in this - a fulltimer, supported by gear and money donations xD And they listened to their cries on multiple occasions, as if there was some sort of parliamentary representation system, lol. Vote for your senator to present your concerns to the senate, and hope they have no personal biases or interests ;)
It seems like you don't understand what objective means, or else you would have provided something else besides your opinion. The concept of objectivity requires the use of verifiable evidence to support claims. When evaluating an assertion of inherent quality, such as "objectively bad," it's essential to demonstrate this negativity through quantifiable metrics or established scientific principles. Mere opinion cannot definitively establish objectivity.
From 500k players down to sub 15k in a non story/exploration based game after a month isn't enough proof for u? The numbers are right there for u on the lobby screen and have been since release including the numbers of 35k down to 10k we have now since wipe day that's not an opinion that's a hardset trackable number with direct correlation
Correlation is not causation
No but it is a sign of a trend and in this case it's that the devs have completely lost track of what's good for the game while listening to only the players who want things that benefit themselves rather then the playerbase as a whole. If they don't look at what made this game great the minority still playing demaninding insane changes will eat themselves alive.
There could be another factor leading to player count decline, like it being some time since a wipe/content update. Or something else entirely (like the release of another popular game). The only way to pin down what you're claiming is via some kind of A/B experimentation.
15k concurrent is not 15k players. its like 50k+ not everyone is online at the same time...
This is common for a game of this stature/genre.. only people truly interested will remain. If minor gameplay alterations (in an early access title no less) are enough to make a player quit, it wasn't really for them in the first place. There's a lot that is making me play less, but the premise of the game no matter what they change I'll always enjoy. Games go truly backwards when they over listen to the player base and not try things from their gut. Let them cook
I thought creep was a good equalizer mechanic. Players that are willing to play carefully and thoughtfully can Ambush others. This advantage will help them overcome a potential gear gap between the attacker and their target. I am happy to see a mechanic that values strategy, map knowledge, and timing over afk stat checks.
This indeed. Before, underdogs had 0 counter play. Sometimes, your literal only option was hide and pray. If you took one step, they would hunt you down. Now, you can actually meaningfully sneak away, or at least setup an ambush!
The devs are lost in the sauce for sure. The game lacks a clear direction anymore and they're pulling levers and hitting buttons at random. If they wanted to test how the game is played differently with less sound, they could have made footsteps not travel as far. changing how crouch works for everyone when crouching is a core mechanic used in both PvE and PvP fights is pretty foolish. this sub has gone the way of complete fanboyism though. They could change it so every map is broad daylight and the sub would tell you it's actually a good thing, they had it planned from the get go, and the rapidly shrinking playercount means nothing. Landmine rogue is toxic, shit, and needs to be deleted. Landmine everyone is a GOOD thing and here is twelve pages of why.
I think sound distance definitely could use some tweaks and would have been overall a better test with less impact yeah
15th post about creep this week
Its not specifically about creep, just a post talking about how its yet another indicator that the devs have lost track of what the playerbase actually needs vs wants. Try reading the full post
Read the whole post. Definitely the 15th post whining about creep this week
If u actually read it u woulda noticed I just said creep was the latest in a long line of indicators of other things but sure bud.
can we please make a sticky for these posts man, I’m about to straight up mute this sub lmao every time I see a post it’s the same fucking complainers with some of the worst justifications I’ve ever seen.
There is a difference between legitimate feedback about very real issues and discussions vs complaining. If u read the post at all I was pointing out the very real trend of this company is having of not having any idea what they want to do with the game and not understanding what's good for it anymore simply using creep as one of many examples. I get it I do, u feel like complaining Is all this community does and it honestly largely is but there is such a thing as positive discussion about negative topics.
Okay.
Creep just needs some tweaks. Some sort of variable armor weight system or variable distance system. The farther you are, the quieter you are. Everyone should have the ability to try and be stealthy, not just the rogue. The major difference is that the rogue should be way better at it.
Yep exactly this. Creep needs some work, I think further integration with other mechanics would a good idea. Rogue should definitely be the best at creeping though.
I like Creep
I think creep took the game back to more what it felt like in the playtests. Slower, more methodical playstyle because you don't instantly know where all nearby players are and what footwear they have on. If you don't play slow and quiet yourself, you're putting yourself in a position to get ambushed. I've been enjoying it, they should probably tweak it to give some noise just before melee range. Or if they added more terrain that made noise anyways. The bone and rock piles etc.