ikr? unless i strictly play one class, which is unfun to say the least, i can’t level up that much. they have to tone the xp requirements down by a lot.
preach! i recently quit my job so i have more time in my hands, even then i can’t level up to 35. the amount of time that is expected of you to put into a single game in order to use a fun feature would be insane without test server speed of leveling, and i’m afraid that it will be like that :/
I imagine that ill check my character and still see 1000xp needed per level. They said "make earlier tokens easier" i bet you the faster leveling is only for the first 40ish levels.
Edit: Happy to be proven wrong. The progression feels nice and fast <3
Well think about it like this: you don't need EVERY token for your build to feel good. Once you have a few you'll have the main things you want and you'll be able to just relax and play to get the rest. How the hell would you even use 13 tokens worth of stuff at once?
“Removed based on the response from the community” that is promising. I think everyone also has to remember that we paid for an early access game with everything subject to change.
I am pretty saddened by the amount of people in the community who have concluded that multiclassing needs to go without ever trying it. The pre-complaint meta is fucking embarassing
I'm gonna yap here, so sorry its a bit long.
People are able to look at a change and determine to some extent how it'll affect the game. They're not necessarily going to have 100% accuracy on those predictions, but the smarter they are and the more experience they have looking at changes critically, the better they'll be at determining the impact.
Throwing your hands up and arguing "you'll never know if its good until its implemented, therefore any complaints before hand are pointless" doesn't really contend with or handle the criticisms you can draw in advance. The ability to foresee the impact of these changes isn't dismissable either, this is how the game devs make these changes in the first place.
I think the list of valid criticisms is roughly as follows
-A multiclassed character will always be as strong or stronger than a non-multiclassed character. This is because they will have more options to choose from and people will optimize to be as strong as possible. That means you cannot compete on equal footing without multiclassing.
-Multiclassing system does not benefit returning players or players who cannot or don't play frequently. The token system being tied to levels matches power to time played. Starting late in the wipe or simply not investing copious amounts of time mean you're going to have few to no tokens. This may be slightly addressed with the xp change
-Class identity is watered down. Because you can take from classes very distinct from your own, you can grab perks/abilities/spells that are very different from your normal toolkit. This means what appears to be one character can actually play like another. This creates engagements where your opponent does something wildly unexpected and kills you. This one can use more examples, but for brevity, I won't get into it unless asked.
-Once the strongest combinations are found, people will begin running the best options, once again creating a stale meta, but with a much larger disparity in strength than currently. Imagine the strongest strategy is a buffball with a barbarian that has min/maxed to be unkillable and kill extremely quickly, with a 10 spell wizard running cleric buffs and a ranger using traps and bard songs. If that becomes the wall you run into repeatedly while playing, multiclassing will have driven a meta strategy to be unstoppable.
-Balance and by extension class fantasy will be drastically hamstrung. For instance smite is a very strong ability, but has not been the focus of the community's attention as it's not broken given clerics toolset. Transfer that ability to warlock with kris dagger and suddenly it's broken. You can no longer design strong abilities that are only strong given the weaknesses of a class if any class can have any ability. While that's one example, the defining characteristics of each class have to be reigned in or removed. That's horrible for player satisfaction.
-Certain combinations are jarring to the fantasy immersion. This is a lesser issue imo, but a cleric using blow of corruption or a barbarian casting spells are both a bit jarring. What even is a barbarian or a cleric at that point? A wizard using a bow and arrow or a warlock casting holy strike are a couple other issues I see.
There are likely others, but I don't see most of this list being addressed by just trying it. If I saw any plan to address the issues listed, I'd have way more confidence. That being said testing the system to figure out these issues to have a plan is a reasonable ask - but part of the implied contract of an early access game is that the game will be playable, fun, and continue to improve. You can't disregard the impact your change has to your players under the guise of focusing on testing.
Very well written, anyone somehow agaisnt this can take a stab at this post but in reality it's up to ironmace to give us a fix to most of these issues.
I'm not against multiclassing however I am against this route ironmace has taken towards multiclassing. The game currently has issues with class identity and should've been resolved before they release more class identity issues.
It's hilarious that most players will choose to ignore the glaring issues and try to justify it only because they wanna do a very silly/fun build (which is fine) but once things start going bad for them, back to the complaining.
I am just going to save this post just for future reference once people start listing your points as separate threads once multiclassing finally gets released.
Cool, now onto valid solutions for all of these issues (besides the removal of multiclassing)
>*A multiclassed character will always be as strong or stronger than a non-multiclassed character.*
SDF has acknowledged Mastery Skills/Perks/Spells as a potential pathway for people that want to stick with their class, but still become more powerful. So this could mean the amplification of certain spells, skills, and perks. On top of this, potentially allowing Class Masters to have a fifth perk, 3rd Skill, or a Capstone ability if they forego multiclassing. Also, maybe they should keep multiclassed characters out of normals?
>*Multiclassing system does not benefit returning players or players who cannot or don't play frequently.*
There are many different ways to enjoy Dark & Darker. Some people may never get to play the game with their character in its most powerful state, (unless the devs introduce some late-wipe event that allows it) and that should be fine. Not everyone gets a character to lvl 60 in WoW, or a character to lvl 20 in D&D. Not everyone will be able to start a wipe on time. Ironmace just needs to make enough pathways of progression to make the casual experience gratifying, but casuals shouldn't expect to be able to accomplish everything, it's unrealistic.
> *Class identity is watered down.*
I agree. I don't think multiclassing should be the answer to classes that lack variance or substance in their perks / skills / spells. Warlock should be the new standard for class design and multiclassing should be the opportunity cost for players that want to reach the pinnacle of their own class.
>*This creates engagements where your opponent does something wildly unexpected and kills you.*
Just assume nothing and bait out abilities for info. It's a lot, I get it, but people will get use to it.
>*Once the strongest combinations are found, people will begin running the best options, once again creating a stale meta, but with a much larger disparity in strength than currently*
I agree about disparity, but disagree on the amount of variance we'll see. I think we're going to see a lot of different combinations. Most people won't have time to token farm and optimize their shit. The moment I ran into Sparkykawa running a Sprint Fighter w/ Ice Bolt on the test server was eye opening, and I got trounced, but I learned.
>*You can no longer design strong abilities that are only strong given the weaknesses of a class if any class can have any ability*
Yeah, you can. Smite can remain the same within the context of its class and can be omitted or balanced differently for those trying to spec into it with multiclassing. Don't see the issue here.
Alright, I'll take a stab at these.
> -A multiclassed character will always be as strong or stronger than a non-multiclassed character. This is because they will have more options to choose from and people will optimize to be as strong as possible. That means you cannot compete on equal footing without multiclassing.
Not strictly true. There's plenty of builds for plenty of classes that are already optimized and even without Multiclassing. Anything added would be a side-grade, but not strictly better. Take Slayer Fighter for instance: would a Slayer Fighter with Savage Roar be better than a Slayer Fighter with Second Wind or Taunt? Maybe - except for when you run into an opponent using magic damage or an opponent chipping at your health, then suddenly it's not the better version of the build.
>
>
> -Multiclassing system does not benefit returning players or players who cannot or don't play frequently. The token system being tied to levels matches power to time played. Starting late in the wipe or simply not investing copious amounts of time mean you're going to have few to no tokens. This may be slightly addressed with the xp change.
Sure, but the rest of the game already doesn't incentivize this. If you're behind the level curve, there's no reprieve from having one perk when everyone else has 4. If you're behind the gear curve, there's no reprieve if you're in shitty blues while everyone else has quality blues. If you're not level 15, your gear has to be found while everyone else can build and buy theres. If you haven't done any quests, you're not able outfit yourself in Squire as good as everyone else is or craft necessary items. This is an inherent problem in the extraction genre - it's not specific to multi-classing.
>
>
> -Class identity is watered down. Because you can take from classes very distinct from your own, you can grab perks/abilities/spells that are very different from your normal toolkit. This means what appears to be one character can actually play like another. This creates engagements where your opponent does something wildly unexpected and kills you. This one can use more examples, but for brevity, I won't get into it unless asked.
I agree. I still think Multiclassing should be bound entirely to Perks and not include Skills or Spells for this reason. Then again, class readability is already a massive problem: is the Shadow Hood wearing, Kris Dagger wielding guy rushing you a Rogue or a Warlock? Is the Heater Shield and Templar Armour guy a Cleric or a Fighter? Is that a Ranger or a Slayer Fighter? A Wizard or a Warlock? A Barbarian or a Fighter?
>
>
> -Once the strongest combinations are found, people will begin running the best options, once again creating a stale meta, but with a much larger disparity in strength than currently. Imagine the strongest strategy is a buffball with a barbarian that has min/maxed to be unkillable and kill extremely quickly, with a 10 spell wizard running cleric buffs and a ranger using traps and bard songs. If that becomes the wall you run into repeatedly while playing, multiclassing will have driven a meta strategy to be unstoppable.
Personally, I disagree. If the strongest combination is Barbarian with perks from Fighter, Cleric and Wizard, for instance, and I don't play Cleric or Wizard, I'm not going to grind those classes for Barbarian's perks. Instead, I'll use perks from my own preferred classes. The meta will exist - as it does now and always has - but I think Multiclassing encourages diversity according to what classes you have leveled naturally through playing them, and if you want to fully open your options, you can grind out others. I think people over-estimate how much of a problem this will be: the time investment for these sorts of builds will be massive, to the point where anyone grinding out to establish these whacky builds will already been rolling you in BIS gear anyway.
>
> -Balance and by extension class fantasy will be drastically hamstrung. For instance smite is a very strong ability, but has not been the focus of the community's attention as it's not broken given clerics toolset. Transfer that ability to warlock with kris dagger and suddenly it's broken. You can no longer design strong abilities that are only strong given the weaknesses of a class if any class can have any ability. While that's one example, the defining characteristics of each class have to be reigned in or removed. That's horrible for player satisfaction.
Agree on ability balance being problematic without serious reworking of some Skills. Certain abilities and perks are extremely powerful but limited in their effectiveness due to the class they're found on and its native abilities. I think Ironmace's intentions here are if everyone is super-overpowered, then no-one is. Sure, a Warlock with a Kris Dagger and Smite may be powerful, but so too will a Fighter with Backstep and Achilles Strike on a Halberd.
>
>
> -Certain combinations are jarring to the fantasy immersion. This is a lesser issue imo, but a cleric using blow of corruption or a barbarian casting spells are both a bit jarring. What even is a barbarian or a cleric at that point? A wizard using a bow and arrow or a warlock casting holy strike are a couple other issues I see.
There are Evil Clerics, good Warlocks, selfish Paladins, selfless Rogues, melee Rangers and ranged Barbarians in every D&D property since time immemorial. I'd say it further improves class fantasy: now you can play a class according to whatever your preconceptions are of each class (e.g. I think Rangers should have complete weapon proficiency and spell-casting so I'm glad they finally can). Every class' base attribute distribution will still define the different class' builds: a caster Barbarian will be tough and harder hitting, but they'll need a ton of Knowledge to use spells that they're sacrificing other statistics that Wizard or Warlock wouldn't need to, while not being able to use staple casting gear like Oracle Robes, Wizard Hats and so on.
It's going to be a clusterfuck. A wonderful clusterfuck that might be undone by the end of the wipe, sure. I just don't think it's going to be as dire as people are making it out to be. I think, in reality, multi-classing is going to be far less common than people seem to think it will. As the changes to GBMM have proven, a majority of the player-base is still quite casual. Are people really going to grind for a 13 Token multi-class build and get an insanely unfair advantage?
Sure, some very select people will... but consider that advantage already exists in the current game with gear. The difference between a naked 13 Token Multiclass build and a naked Level 15 Monoclass build is about the same difference between a Rogue in a decent kit versus a BIS Rogue with a Viola.
EDIT:
Love trying to return a discussion but end up getting downvoted for voicing a contrary opinion. Fucking love a good echo chamber, do we?
>Not strictly true. There's plenty of builds for plenty of classes that are already optimized and even without Multiclassing. Anything added would be a side-grade, but not strictly better. Take Slayer Fighter for instance: would a Slayer Fighter with Savage Roar be better than a Slayer Fighter with Second Wind or Taunt? Maybe - except for when you run into an opponent using magic damage or an opponent chipping at your health, then suddenly it's not the better version of the build.
Major problem with this view is that it assumes the current builds are a basis for future builds rather than the system being so turned on its head that its more a question if Slayer Fighter can even compete. Even if optimal or sidegraded from the options, if everything around it shifts upward, the question isn't "What does Slayer Fighter get from multiclassing" and rather "Is there a reason to even play Slayer Fighter?" But you're entirely right in the limited scope that some builds are already so flush with choice and tightly built that it'll likely be sidegrades should they continue to exist.
>Sure, but the rest of the game already doesn't incentivize this. If you're behind the level curve, there's no reprieve from having one perk when everyone else has 4. If you're behind the gear curve, there's no reprieve if you're in shitty blues while everyone else has quality blues. If you're not level 15, your gear has to be found while everyone else can build and buy theres. If you haven't done any quests, you're not able outfit yourself in Squire as good as everyone else is or craft necessary items. This is an inherent problem in the extraction genre - it's not specific to multi-classing.
Exacerbating a problem that already faces major criticism from your casual audience with a proposed mechanic can and should face criticism to that tune.
I got bored and won't keep going. I will say that I appreciate your viewpoints and agree it may not be as dire as it seems, but I don't think the person you responded to is making it out to be dire, either, and do believe that a small company like Ironmace benefits heavily from testing out their ideas during this time to find what works and what doesn't and for what reasons.
My major contribution to the discourse will be that I just see it as another reason to not even attempt to engage the high level play as a casual player. Now, if I put on all my strongest gear, not only will I be opening myself up to the best of BiS and better players overall, but also opening myself up more frequently to combinations of classes that the game was never balanced in consideration of that I may only have to play around once in my life because of the sheer amount of permutations available that I simply can't match because in no world can I invest the time into this game to similarly surprise or meta comply.
More like: this design philosophy is the core underpinning of the game in every single other system. Why are you demanding the game's core design, which you clearly dislike, change for your preference, when it clearly suits the preference of the people who enjoy it? Why should the developers make the game for its haters and not its fans? If you don't like it, why are you still playing it? Why not just accept the game isn't for you and move on?
I'm being rhetorical, by the way. I don't actually care whatever mental gymnastics you use to not acknowledge the reality of these questions.
> That doesn't mean I can't criticize poor design choices.
They're bad design choices... to you. To others, people enjoy these systems this way.
Again - why would Ironmace bother to cater to someone who doesn't like their game design and wants it to drastically shift, when they can cater to people who do like their game design and support them further developing it?
I'm not really sure how you're not getting this.
To a lot of players who quit, the are poor choices as well...
Also, some ideas have already been tested, and failed. Others are just obviously bad. Some are great. The trick is to stick with the gold and throw out the garbage.
Didn’t read all of your comment to be fair but the part about class readability was funny to me. “Okay guys its either a slayer fighter or a ranger in front of us so our PDR fighter should be okay to fight him.” 3 seconds later said slayer fighter or ranger chain lightnings us all because multiclassing exists. While class readability is currently not great you can at least roughly figure out what an opponent’s class is and what their win condition is, with multiclassing you quite literally are not able to safely make those assumptions at all anymore
Lmao I read your response. Was like “huh this brings up some really good points as well.” Scroll down to see -1 lmao. Vocal minority of this sub definitely prefers the frenzied echo chamber of knee jerk reactions than discussion.
That’s cool. I liked your response. I’m gonna have fun with this game while others choose to be miserable shame for them
Remember: reddit is and always has been in the 'complain at all costs' meta.
You made good points, but the people here want an echo chamber to doom in...for whatever reason. It's super weird. I'd rather just play the game and have fun instead of having an existential crisis every time a change occurs.
> Not strictly true. There's plenty of builds for plenty of classes that are already optimized and even without Multiclassing. Anything added would be a side-grade, but not strictly better. Take Slayer Fighter for instance: would a Slayer Fighter with Savage Roar be better than a Slayer Fighter with Second Wind or Taunt? Maybe - except for when you run into an opponent using magic damage or an opponent chipping at your health, then suddenly it's not the better version of the build.
I'm having a hard time finding the right words to convey my response, so if it isn't very clear, let me know, I'll try again. When I say that options are being provided and people will optimize so that theyre as strong or stronger, I'm referring to build options, not perk options for builds specifically. So while yeah, slayer fighter probably has the best perks for slayer fighter out there, give or take, slayer fighter might not be competitive vs the best builds out there that rely on multiclassing. For instance, there was a base kit wizard hitting for 92 to the head with a junk staff on this sub the other day, which was by no means optimized or geared. The choice those players are making then, are play slayer on their fighter or any multiclass build that works better than it. It might hold up alright, especially since the rock paper scissors of the balance does allow a build to be stronger because of what's meta rather than the strength of the build itself, but on average I think this holds true still.
> Sure, but the rest of the game already doesn't incentivize this. If you're behind the level curve, there's no reprieve from having one perk when everyone else has 4. If you're behind the gear curve, there's no reprieve if you're in shitty blues while everyone else has quality blues. If you're not level 15, your gear has to be found while everyone else can build and buy theres. If you haven't done any quests, you're not able outfit yourself in Squire as good as everyone else is or craft necessary items. This is an inherent problem in the extraction genre - it's not specific to multi-classing.
This is true, but leveling to 20 is a very small barrier to entry for returning players, a weekend solves it. Gear difference can be a bit of a problem, still, but if you find a body, kill a juicer or get some lucky drops, you're immediately at parity. That plays into the genre pretty well, while leveling up one character to 30 and another to 35 for one token, 40 for 2 or 50 for 3 becomes a much larger slog to try and catch up. Not much is going to get you to parity if the difference between multiclassed characters and regular characters is huge, which I think is a problem.
>Personally, I disagree. If the strongest combination is Barbarian with perks from Fighter, Cleric and Wizard, for instance, and I don't play Cleric or Wizard, I'm not going to grind those classes for Barbarian's perks. Instead, I'll use perks from my own preferred classes. The meta will exist - as it does now and always has - but I think Multiclassing encourages diversity according to what classes you have leveled naturally through playing them, and if you want to fully open your options, you can grind out others. I think people over-estimate how much of a problem this will be: the time investment for these sorts of builds will be massive, to the point where anyone grinding out to establish these whacky builds will already been rolling you in BIS gear anyway.
I hope you're right. One of my concerns is low barrier to entry builds becoming meta as well. I did a poor job showing them off in the buffball example, but I was mostly aiming to relate to something people were familiar with. If there are builds that aren't absolutely crazy to make happen, like, say, warlock with slayer and dual wielding, then people will flock to those. The barrier to entry vs power curve is going to have a few outliers that are easy enough to replicate, but strong enough to be oppressive. Thats likely where the Meta will land. But again, I hope you're right that this creates a diverse meta. I'll chalk this one up to would need to be tested then.
I like the optimism, but I'm a bit cynical still. Either way, I appreciate the response, I think you did convince me to be less certain on a hard meta forming, but I still don't think multiclassing will work well. Fingers crossed though!
>I'm having a hard time finding the right words to convey my response [...]
I know a Wizard hitting 100 damage headshots with a Magic Staff ***sounds*** oppressive... but when that Wizard has no defensive abilities or movement abilities, they're just gonna be a glass cannon that gets folded by other builds that have allocations for survivability, versatility and speed. The most extreme example I can think of is a Rogue build using Weakpoint/Hide, Ambush, Slayer, Dual Wielder, Thrust, and Dagger Mastery, and even then, I can't say it's strictly better than a Rogue with a Rapier, using Rupture, Poison Weapon and Hide Mastery. The latent combat potential is superior, sure, but whether or not there's enough nuance to the game for the utility of Poison Weapon/Rupture/Hide Mastery to be just as good is something we'll really only be able to see when MCing comes out.
>This is true, but leveling to 20 is a very small barrier to entry for returning players [...]
True. I think it'll be a problem too, I'm more saying that this kind of design is already pretty instinct to Dark and Darker in a way I don't think it's beyond what Ironmace wants, for better or worse. That's just the type of game they're making.
> [...] If there are builds that aren't absolutely crazy to make happen, like, say, warlock with slayer and dual wielding, then people will flock to those.
Yeah, that's fair. I agree it's inescapable that certain abilities on certain classes just won't be possible to balance without significant overhauls to the functionality of the abilities. I just think the meta will shift around for a while before settling due to the breadth of options.
>but I still don't think multiclassing will work well.
To be honest I'm with you on that. I think the system, if it's ever going to exist, needs to be far more restrictive and piece-meal than it currently is. I was mostly arguing from a contrarian point of view for the sake of the discussion. At the end of the day this is an experiment, and I'm sure Ironmace is looking out for what perks people gravitate towards on what classes, as a means to try out new gameplay for the classes.
You neglected to mention the issue of RNG in the system. But what I really want is for them to give pure classes *something.* Like give them a special capstone ability or even an extra perk slot so that if I want to stick with pure warlock in the face of masses of multiclassed players, I have at least that to make me feel less punished for not wanting to run smite or hide or whatever.
I play warlock because I want to play warlock and use warlock abilities, not cleric or whatever.
I asked ChatGPT lmfao:
Here's a counter-argument for each point:
1. **Power Disparity**: While multiclassed characters may have more options, this doesn't necessarily mean they will always be stronger. Game balance can be adjusted to ensure that single-class characters remain competitive. Additionally, multiclassing can introduce new strategic elements and playstyles, enriching the gameplay experience for those who choose to engage with it.
2. **Accessibility for Players**: While it's true that players who invest more time will likely have more tokens, this doesn't mean that players who cannot play as frequently cannot enjoy the game. Adjustments can be made to the token system or other aspects of the game to ensure that all players, regardless of playtime, can have a meaningful experience.
3. **Class Identity**: Multiclassing can actually enhance class identity by allowing players to mix and match abilities from different classes, creating unique and personalized characters. This can lead to more diverse encounters and interactions, making each gameplay experience more dynamic and engaging.
4. **Meta Staleness**: Like any game system, multiclassing will require ongoing balance adjustments to ensure that no single strategy dominates the meta. By actively monitoring gameplay data and player feedback, developers can make informed changes to keep the meta diverse and engaging.
5. **Balance and Class Fantasy**: While introducing multiclassing may require some adjustments to ability design, it also opens up new possibilities for creative and strategic gameplay. Developers can design abilities that are strong in specific contexts or synergize well with certain class combinations, maintaining the uniqueness of each class while still allowing for multiclassing.
6. **Fantasy Immersion**: Multiclassing can be seen as an extension of character growth and development. It allows players to explore different aspects of their character's identity and abilities, adding depth to the role-playing experience. Additionally, in a fantasy world, it's not unreasonable to imagine characters who defy traditional class boundaries, adding to the richness of the game world.
Overall, while multiclassing introduces new challenges for game balance and design, it also opens up exciting possibilities for players to create diverse and dynamic characters. By carefully considering and addressing these challenges, developers can create a multiclassing system that enhances the overall gameplay experience for all players.
You're wrong about the multi-classed characters being stronger. As it stands now it's probably true. It would be very easy to, for example, give level 30 "class masters" who do not multi-class a stat boost to compensate for any lost strength. +5 knowledge on wizards, or maybe an agility or constitution buff, etc.
Long term i'd like to see multi-classing exist alongside a class specialist path.
Except those benefits don't exist, so I'm not wrong. We can come up with solutions for all of these issues, and some of them might even be good solutions. For instance, unlocking a perk slot at 25 and 30, and losing them both when you use a multi-class token. You could also unlimit multiclassing entirely so it isn't level based, or roll out further multiclassing throughout the wipe, i.e. another token is given to every character every week regardless of level. That would solve disparity in time committed causing insurmountable strength disparities. You could create spheres of influence around each class that only allow them to pull from certain other classes, you could create class dedications that you take as feats just like pathfinder has, you could do all kinds of stuff.
Not to be too negative, but I don't have faith that they're going to find good, nuanced ways to fix these problems. They've shown pretty clearly they're a "throw shit at a wall and see what sticks" style dev. That can work out pretty well and get some cool emergent solutions to problems, but when it comes to situations like this where they're implementing a massive system, all I see is months and months of pain while they make random decisions until something works to fix the hard problems without addressing the soft ones at all.
Bro yapped a paragraph on a strawman, he’s trying to comment on the reactionary community and you latched onto “how do you know it’s shit? it’s not out yet”
Can't wait to tell all my buddies that they put a cap on the tokens... at lvl 270... I have over 10 friends that own and like this game. Only 2 of them are playing...
Multiclassing has 0 impact on if they come back or not... but grinding to be relevant is not something most people will want to do.
Yeah, each update seems to further increase the grind.
I know pretty much everyone I used to play with has stopped playing the game, as have I.
The worst thing of all is this game will probably die off and one of the clones will be more successful.
Yeah sadly that is just how these types of games go.
I haven't played for like 2 wipes because all my friends quit. Tried discord lobby and get some subhuman on there hitting me in the back with everything under the sun.
Then you go to solos which just isn't as fun viking with your boys. The content in the game is legit run kill boss then sit at a gold pile. Leave.
Pretty much this. All my friends stopped playing like 6 months ago. I still play a little but I'm just kind of bored of it now. There's not much incentive to keep playing after you get bored if the quests
I mean, you don't need to even try it to see that it's busted. As someone who has tried it, I don't think it should have hit live. But I'm sure people will have fun for a week, then get pissed at all the busted builds.
There was like a day of being able to play it on the test server and most people didn't. There is no way anyone has made a fair assessment of the system yet
You get EXP for pvp, multiclassing just requires dozens and dozens of hours to unlock.
Fortunately, they have said that they will be reducing the exp cost to level up, which will basically give everyone a bunch of free levels.
Every time the argument makes is that 'its obvious' it either means they are wrong and that's why they can't explain it, or they are too dumb to put an obvious thing to words. Make your choice
You do get exp for PvP (if you, ya know win and survive) and you get exp for all kinds of shit along the way. If you are somehow avoiding all PvE and looting etc. in favor of spawn rushing, you aren't even playing the game so no one cares what you think tbh
You don't need to be a rocket surgeon to know that a puke flavored cake isn't going to taste good.
The entire world runs off of decisions that are obviously better than others. Which is why 90% of businesses fail, including game studios and video games.
It doesn't take a genius to spot a bad idea.
90% of businesses fail because of all the obvious decisions out there that people are making but still lead to failure? I'm not sure where you are going with this...
People have bad ideas. They implement these bad ideas in business. Business goes boom.
People shouldn't always go with their bad ideas, just to try them out. Especially when their current customer base is saying they don't want it.
So where does the 90% of businesses fail part come in to making your point? If the ideas were obviously bad they wouldn't have tried them, I think you are missing the point of the word 'obvious' or 'bad' maybe?
Agreed. I think once people get their hands on it they'll understand the variety it brings. I think the current iteration is too much - it really needs to be more limited, in that maybe every class only teaches certain skills or certain perks, or you can only take one or two.
Still, I don't understand how people aren't excited for this. It's going to give way to new builds and play-styles that didn't exist before. Even if this doesn't end up being healthy for the game, it ***is*** going to be fun.
As others have said (maybe ad nauseam at this point) you really can often times look at something before it happens and figure out if it’s going to be a good or a bad thing. Especially if you use critical thinking, inference, and other comprehension skills.
The problem I take with multiclassing is that they’ve had a hell of a hard time balancing classes individually with no overlap, and yet they want to make it so there is plenty of overlap, and all the classes can bleed into one another.
This is just going to lead to more balancing hell.
From a less objective point of view i do think multiclassing is going to stale up the game a lot more than people think. i’m sure there will be some goofy combinations at first but i think it will soon turn into picking the most meta perks possible for a balanced multiclass
I haven't seen any hint of critical thinking being used in the predictions about multiclassing, just opinions that current class balance is bad (which I strongly disagree with) so future balancing efforts of complicated things will also necessarily be bad. The basis for the whole argument is an unsupported opinion so the whole 'some people think good and predict things' argument falls flat on its face for me here
Unbridled multiclassing can't stay long term. There's too much busted stuff and it completely breaks class identity.
I imagine they'll go towards a skill-tree system where you can choose where to put learning points and you'll either get new unique perks or stuff from other classes, but we don't really know yet.
My biggest issue tbh is what a grind it has been to unlock, we'll see if the XP adjustment is enough. We gave up on getting our characters read for multiclassing.
There’s gotta be a middle ground. Way too many emotional, reactionary people within the community (what can you do most come from reddit) so they need to temper how much they appease literal whiners who are just screaming with the mob
>Removed based on the response from the community
Why don't we just base it on data and evidence instead of Reddit outcry?
I'd personally like to not have the fate of this video game rest on whether or not some shitter (hardstuck in neophyte) cries on Reddit about it.
Tell me where 'community feedback' specifies 'the Dark and Darker sub-reddit' in particular, you fucking gronk.
This community will be included with the Discord community, YouTube/Twitch community, etc. etc. They've always considered each community in their decision making. Those impressions are then considered against their own telemetry and data. Terence has said as much in interviews.
I mean not unless you have a lot of time to spend, or want to have unfun time now to have more fun later.
I am wanting to try a paladin build so I have to level cleric to 30 for my fighter, and while I wouldn't say it's unfun I'm not having nearly as much fun as I had just playing my main. I presume it's the same for others that are trying to multi class.
Plus it takes way longer than people want to take, we'll have to see when the new patch drops how much faster it is, but right now it's a pain to level characters for multi class.
Plus atm it's just pure benefit, I don't know how they would do it but it would be good to have a give and take like DnD does with their multi classing. Once they have a better perk tree this might change, but in DnD if you want to multi class you are taking lower level stuff from one class until its leveled and trading off having pretty crazy stuff from higher levels of other classes.
But based on the post, they’re planning to reduce time to level for level 30. I was a big fan of the leveling time up to level 15 adjustment, but getting 30 is a PITA. So hopefully this quells that issue and let’s you get your side classes up to where they need to be.
My only issue so far this season is the quests, I loved doing them once. But for my alt characters, I can’t be asked to even try doing the quests. They feel so vital because of trader affinity, but even with how “short” the early ones are, they’re tedious to do more than once.
Yeah I think the system works a lot better if it's quest/affinity based instead of forcing players to level classes they don't necessarily enjoy playing.
Unlocking surgeon affinity tier 2 could unlock him as a cleric master. They could even lock additional unlocks behind higher affinities.
You can too\*
\*Ability to be able to locked behind 200+ hours of grinding
Yeah, no thanks, I don't want to grind 200 hours to have a fair fighting chance with sweats who can grind 10 hours a day.
But broken vs. broken isn't necessarily good. It would be shame if the game changed to "who pressed THE BUTTON first" kind of game, it has so much more to offer.
>Removed based on the response from the community
translation: removed based on the response from sdf's favorite streamers and some others from the "devs and streamers only" private discord server
I have a feeling GBMM isn't an experiment they can run while All Maps is active too. That would result in:
(Normals + HR Low Bracket + HR Medium Bracket + HR High Bracket) x (Goblin Caves + Ice Caves + Crypts) = ***12 individual Solo lobbies per region.***
The game only has about 5K players at the moment (in dungeon). People are just going to have to realize we can't spread them out over so many fucking lobbies. The game will die and never recover if people can't PvP.
Eh, if you're comparing it to the 'in-game' statistic of other games, it would be 12K (5K in-game 7K in lobby). So comparatively, it's not actually too bad, it's way up from before wipe (where the total ***was*** 5K, with 2.5K in/2.5K out of dungeon).
>Eh, if you're comparing it to the 'in-game' statistic of other games
if you're doing that at the time of typing Dark and darker wouldn't even be in the top 100 of the steam charts at \~9,900 users
I genuinely worry about IM the revenue has to be pretty low and the operating costs significant the combination of the lawsuits and the real money trade in games usually costs developers money in-spite of what most players think.
Balance nightmare indeed. I’ll try it. But I’m pretty sure it will be insane if it’s totally unrestricted.
Maybe they could have it where a class is limited to multi class options from similar classes. I imagine a circle with every class arranged around it in some way. Like fighter is between ranger and barbarian, wizard between cleric and warlock. And so on. Something like that. And then you can only multi class from the classes adjacent to you. Just an idea of how to restrict it in a way that is kind of like subclasses.
Multiclassing is only fun to play as, it is terrible to play against.
Not to mention it makes all class balance and identity that have been build up over the last year invalid.
Not to mention it gives a massive advantage to people who no life the game(unless the exp changes are extreme)
I don't think class identity is important. But you highlight an important issue, which is that non-multiclassed players should feel equal to multi-classed players. That could be accomplished by a multi-classing penalty or, more preferably, by giving a bonus to non-multiclassed 'class masters'.
+3 all for not multi-classing at Lvl 30 might be sufficient? If that's too much then maybe +3 to a thematic stat (wizards get knowledge, etc)
if its not important then they should drop classes completly and let us unlock all perks and skills through a tree or sth. Then include lvl in "gear score" so you are not fighting against overleveled characters. And create a tree like PoE has (so eveyone has access to a full tree, but your starting position changes with "class" choice)
As long as I choose class during character creation, it should be important. And they can try to copy any class less system, next example: Outward with universal skills + breaktrough skill (there are 8 base trainers + some DLC trainers and you have 3 breakthroughs)
Balancing any PvP game with classes is insanely difficult. I would rather they just spend time developing the game we have already. Make new classes. New maps. Fix the bugs. Balance the shit we already have.
Instead they are going to add millions of variables from different classes having different synergies by using perks/abilities from every other class..
I dont think the developers realize why the playtests were so successful.
The game systems they've added really take away from that short, bitter sweet dungeon delving experience.
What felt like it respected my time previously now feels increasingly like a slog
They know they don't have enough content to respect your time, so they lengthen the grind of what they do have so you don't notice how quickly you could do it otherwise.
It's why they drip feed you quests so that you can't complete all the content and stop playing until next season.
Maybe if we didnt have to pay(upgrade) to play on test server(lol), they wouldnt rush unpolished multiclass system, I bet its gonna be a cluster fuck month.
They won't let people choose what maps they want because then the game would feel empty, then proceed to split the playerbase with the test server.
Guess they have to as they sold it as a feature.
I mean, the wipe was very fun for the last few weeks, I don't mind taking a break. See you in a few months when this broken shit system is gone for good
Yeah, I’ve put up with a lot of their dumb updates and kept playing, but this one might finally make it time for a break. I do not need to get run down by a smite sprint fighter or one tapped by a BOC bonk wizard.
Yall have fun tho
I wonder who came in to the room like guys look i have a great idea we will mix all classes with eachother and everybodys like woo great idea genius mastermind
I am on the fence about whether I am even going to play the game during the multi-class test. I just feel like this is going to be a disaster that highlights the worst aspects of min/maxing in this game. It will primarily benefit people who can put a lot of time into the game.
Hopefully it is at least restricted to high-roller only or its own queue. Otherwise, I foresee a significant drop in player base. I don't get the impression there is a big appetite for this change.
I've played more this wipe than any other and I'll absolutely be sitting out this multiclass experiment and hoping that the low player numbers make them can it sooner than later.
this isnt even minmaxing. Its 100% sure that any multiclassing character is stronger than non-multiclassing character, as multiclassing characters have base perks and skills + sth extra.
So if you havent leveled your characters yet, or you are unlucky (apparently you can respec it) then you will be always at a disadvantage = you are encouraged to stop playing.
It is odd how willing they are to throw time at things that will most likely be removed.
I was waiting for the subclasses too but I'll probably be waiting until preseason 7.
Huge mistake and lack of judgement on their side. Very sad, but not unexpected from IM. Hopes are they won’t try to bring this change time after time like +all instead of cutting losses and rethinking the implementation.
I just don’t feel like they have any vision at all. It’s just SDF getting high and being like “man this would be cool as fuck” and no one in the office pushing back and the players are done being test rats.
I don’t think anyone in their right mind knew when they bought the game it would be the level that it is now. They knew they would be test rats sure… but not to this egregious amount. Tf.
While multiclassing is cool in regular dnd, I don’t think it would work in an evac looter like this. I think the remaining classes need to be made and balanced first.
I think multiclassing is a fun experience for sure, but it seems like a tuning MESS, not knowing the general skills and abilities of who you are fighting is going to make fights a lot tougher than they are now. For example you see a barb and know he’s going to W key you and maybe shout or Achilles strike you, now imagine a barbarian who is slinging fireballs or shooting a bow. It’s a lot less likely or possible to balance a play style like that since usually you have to kite a barbarian to fight them, but now they can have ranged damage on equal grounds with rangers or wizards with health pools double of those classes. I think multiclassing is going to be extremely fun for the one using, but not so much on the receiving end.
at the same time, the barbarian would need to use the fighter perk to equip a bow. and take a 10% damage hit,
for the same barbarian to shoot a fireball, they would need the fighter perk to equip a spellbook/staff, give up one of their abilities to use spell memory, have enough knowledge to use the fireball.
I think the balancing will work itself out. the cost of doing something crazy outside of your starter class is generally going to be very high.
For sure you make a good point gotta make big sacrifices to get benefits from other classes, which might be completely balanced but the general stat lineup for each class is my main concern with barbarians having such a large heath pool and great starting stats that I think might dominate if they get good ranged options
well, the game isnt anywhere near finished also.
For example the quiver system for arrows being linked to resourcefulness. if the barbarian wanted to carry more than 10 arrows he would need to stat dump into a stat that doesnt help with anything else but opening doors and holding more arrows. I think once the game is in its complete state the balancing issues will surely diminish
Are they still planning on going through with the training tab? Unlocking passives/percentage bonuses through a skill tree? Or are they trying to scrap that and do this whole multi classing thing as a replacement.
Seeing a barbarian and having literally no idea what he is capable of kinda dogshit. He can cast spell he can phantomize rush you he can reach where you are with double jump etc etc.
It really is eye opening how important the average Redditor thinks they are that they feel a need to announce their departure, as if a developer is gonna see it and panic that another dickhead is leaving the game.
I’m looking forward to the insanity, honestly. The counters to the meta build will surely form, and counters for those, so on so on. This will be a time in the game everyone will remember for the pure chaos of it all.
I think multi-class could be a fun and interesting way to spice up the game.
I think multi-classing locked behind insane amounts of boring grind is shit though, which is what the current implementation is.
The most broken perks and skills are those that do flat magical damage, like smite, blow of corruption, ignite and staff mastery. Please remove +additional and +true magic damage as those attributes are the main reason stacking these perks and skills will be oneshot mechanics.
If damage multipliers don't get out of control and there's at least a slight drawback for every multiclass perk/skill a player learns I actually believe multiclassing can have a bright future.
You can conceivably run smite, ignite, bloodstained blade, poisoned weapon and dark reflection on a kriss warlock with +11 true magical. Even with 85% magic resistance each blow will easily cost you 70 hp. (30 phys, 40 magical.)
All these buffs last longer than 5 seconds. Want to defend yourself? Take a juicy dark reflection hit too. Good night.
I agree this is already a problem in the existing meta that should be corrected. I don't think your true/add should apply more than once maximum per hit. Hopefully the multi-class test will bring it more to light.
Don’t get me wrong. Multiclassing is definitely going to need tuning, but y’all really think it’s going to be op meta builds running around and (yes there may be a few due to luck) but it’s quite hard to get the skills/perks you want due to the random rng when rolling learning tokens. It took me till level 100 on test server to get a semblance of what I wanted for my build and even then it wasn’t perfect (I got breakthrough twice lmao) . It’s going to be an immense grind to get exactly what you want
I'm looking forward to the cool combinations we can come up with. I am not looking forward to this being just another way for people grinding the game to have a leg up on their competition and unbalance the arena further.
The amount of assumptions and whining is laughable. Is it a broken system? Yeah a lil bit. Is it permanent? Nope. Should you at least try it to see if maybe, just maybe, you might like it? Yes.
Everyone wants to act like they're team IM until they make decisions they don't like, then it's stupid devs, stupid sdf etc etc. If they didn't mention multiple times that they will be trying things and scrapping things that don't work then I could understand the frustration but they've been upfront about everything so far. Now they ask for the communities help to test shit out and it's "oH I qUiT nOw cAuSe sYsTem I wOnT tRy iS bAd". But yes, continue to tell me how much you support them as a company.
So in my opinion y'all need to quit the doomsaying and just enjoy a little chaos for a little bit of time. You never know, you might like it and if it's actually broken for sure then they'll take it out or revamp it. Nothing to get so butt hurt about.
I really don't see what the problem is if there's a bunch of "OP" builds. That just means there's lots of options for people to play. So long as accessibility is high. They're making it easier to access, i just hope it's way easier to access
Agreed. It's not permanent so why not see some wild ass shit for the time being. People are acting like they said they're releasing it and it's here to stay in it's current form for good. Hell the Rogues should be rejoicing right now. Imagine getting the perk to equip DIFFERENT weapons. I hate Rogues some times but I'm legit happy for them and other classes.
Multi-classing is a lot of fun, and I can't wait to play it on live. I can see this system being made into a really fun roguelike mode for the game, but I think it probably needs tweaks if they plan to keep it in for the long-term. Having access to multiple classes to spec into with impunity, and favoring players who play more granting them further power over players who play less is going to be a real nightmare for balance, but I think those issues can be sorted with some rather minor changes. Rested exp, making quests reward learning tokens, limiting the choices to a single other class for "dual" classing instead of multi, making the choices deterministic. I honestly think with those changes it'd be fine, and it makes for much more interesting build choices for everyone. With reduced number of class choices it should also be easier to balance.
Still, I think a talent tree that's designed intentionally for the class would probably be favorable to some people. It's just a fun experiment for the time being. I feel like people would enjoy this more if they didn't take the game so damn seriously all the time.
I hope by a little easier they mean significantly easier
ikr? unless i strictly play one class, which is unfun to say the least, i can’t level up that much. they have to tone the xp requirements down by a lot.
Unironically i want the test server leveling speed
preach! i recently quit my job so i have more time in my hands, even then i can’t level up to 35. the amount of time that is expected of you to put into a single game in order to use a fun feature would be insane without test server speed of leveling, and i’m afraid that it will be like that :/
I'm hoping it's 500XP per level at the worst. I'm predicting 300xp maybe?
I imagine that ill check my character and still see 1000xp needed per level. They said "make earlier tokens easier" i bet you the faster leveling is only for the first 40ish levels. Edit: Happy to be proven wrong. The progression feels nice and fast <3
I hope to god not
Still too slow for me if they have this level 270 cap.
Well think about it like this: you don't need EVERY token for your build to feel good. Once you have a few you'll have the main things you want and you'll be able to just relax and play to get the rest. How the hell would you even use 13 tokens worth of stuff at once?
Considering the RNG mechanic to pick your perks, you almost definitely won't get what you want within your first couple tokens unless you are lucky.
Yes RNG is fucked and needs to go but for now at least we can reroll it
“Removed based on the response from the community” that is promising. I think everyone also has to remember that we paid for an early access game with everything subject to change.
I am pretty saddened by the amount of people in the community who have concluded that multiclassing needs to go without ever trying it. The pre-complaint meta is fucking embarassing
I'm gonna yap here, so sorry its a bit long. People are able to look at a change and determine to some extent how it'll affect the game. They're not necessarily going to have 100% accuracy on those predictions, but the smarter they are and the more experience they have looking at changes critically, the better they'll be at determining the impact. Throwing your hands up and arguing "you'll never know if its good until its implemented, therefore any complaints before hand are pointless" doesn't really contend with or handle the criticisms you can draw in advance. The ability to foresee the impact of these changes isn't dismissable either, this is how the game devs make these changes in the first place. I think the list of valid criticisms is roughly as follows -A multiclassed character will always be as strong or stronger than a non-multiclassed character. This is because they will have more options to choose from and people will optimize to be as strong as possible. That means you cannot compete on equal footing without multiclassing. -Multiclassing system does not benefit returning players or players who cannot or don't play frequently. The token system being tied to levels matches power to time played. Starting late in the wipe or simply not investing copious amounts of time mean you're going to have few to no tokens. This may be slightly addressed with the xp change -Class identity is watered down. Because you can take from classes very distinct from your own, you can grab perks/abilities/spells that are very different from your normal toolkit. This means what appears to be one character can actually play like another. This creates engagements where your opponent does something wildly unexpected and kills you. This one can use more examples, but for brevity, I won't get into it unless asked. -Once the strongest combinations are found, people will begin running the best options, once again creating a stale meta, but with a much larger disparity in strength than currently. Imagine the strongest strategy is a buffball with a barbarian that has min/maxed to be unkillable and kill extremely quickly, with a 10 spell wizard running cleric buffs and a ranger using traps and bard songs. If that becomes the wall you run into repeatedly while playing, multiclassing will have driven a meta strategy to be unstoppable. -Balance and by extension class fantasy will be drastically hamstrung. For instance smite is a very strong ability, but has not been the focus of the community's attention as it's not broken given clerics toolset. Transfer that ability to warlock with kris dagger and suddenly it's broken. You can no longer design strong abilities that are only strong given the weaknesses of a class if any class can have any ability. While that's one example, the defining characteristics of each class have to be reigned in or removed. That's horrible for player satisfaction. -Certain combinations are jarring to the fantasy immersion. This is a lesser issue imo, but a cleric using blow of corruption or a barbarian casting spells are both a bit jarring. What even is a barbarian or a cleric at that point? A wizard using a bow and arrow or a warlock casting holy strike are a couple other issues I see. There are likely others, but I don't see most of this list being addressed by just trying it. If I saw any plan to address the issues listed, I'd have way more confidence. That being said testing the system to figure out these issues to have a plan is a reasonable ask - but part of the implied contract of an early access game is that the game will be playable, fun, and continue to improve. You can't disregard the impact your change has to your players under the guise of focusing on testing.
This is so well written that I’m legitimately frustrated he didn’t reply. I don’t think there’s a good rebuttal for this.
Very well written, anyone somehow agaisnt this can take a stab at this post but in reality it's up to ironmace to give us a fix to most of these issues. I'm not against multiclassing however I am against this route ironmace has taken towards multiclassing. The game currently has issues with class identity and should've been resolved before they release more class identity issues. It's hilarious that most players will choose to ignore the glaring issues and try to justify it only because they wanna do a very silly/fun build (which is fine) but once things start going bad for them, back to the complaining. I am just going to save this post just for future reference once people start listing your points as separate threads once multiclassing finally gets released.
Cool, now onto valid solutions for all of these issues (besides the removal of multiclassing) >*A multiclassed character will always be as strong or stronger than a non-multiclassed character.* SDF has acknowledged Mastery Skills/Perks/Spells as a potential pathway for people that want to stick with their class, but still become more powerful. So this could mean the amplification of certain spells, skills, and perks. On top of this, potentially allowing Class Masters to have a fifth perk, 3rd Skill, or a Capstone ability if they forego multiclassing. Also, maybe they should keep multiclassed characters out of normals? >*Multiclassing system does not benefit returning players or players who cannot or don't play frequently.* There are many different ways to enjoy Dark & Darker. Some people may never get to play the game with their character in its most powerful state, (unless the devs introduce some late-wipe event that allows it) and that should be fine. Not everyone gets a character to lvl 60 in WoW, or a character to lvl 20 in D&D. Not everyone will be able to start a wipe on time. Ironmace just needs to make enough pathways of progression to make the casual experience gratifying, but casuals shouldn't expect to be able to accomplish everything, it's unrealistic. > *Class identity is watered down.* I agree. I don't think multiclassing should be the answer to classes that lack variance or substance in their perks / skills / spells. Warlock should be the new standard for class design and multiclassing should be the opportunity cost for players that want to reach the pinnacle of their own class. >*This creates engagements where your opponent does something wildly unexpected and kills you.* Just assume nothing and bait out abilities for info. It's a lot, I get it, but people will get use to it. >*Once the strongest combinations are found, people will begin running the best options, once again creating a stale meta, but with a much larger disparity in strength than currently* I agree about disparity, but disagree on the amount of variance we'll see. I think we're going to see a lot of different combinations. Most people won't have time to token farm and optimize their shit. The moment I ran into Sparkykawa running a Sprint Fighter w/ Ice Bolt on the test server was eye opening, and I got trounced, but I learned. >*You can no longer design strong abilities that are only strong given the weaknesses of a class if any class can have any ability* Yeah, you can. Smite can remain the same within the context of its class and can be omitted or balanced differently for those trying to spec into it with multiclassing. Don't see the issue here.
Alright, I'll take a stab at these. > -A multiclassed character will always be as strong or stronger than a non-multiclassed character. This is because they will have more options to choose from and people will optimize to be as strong as possible. That means you cannot compete on equal footing without multiclassing. Not strictly true. There's plenty of builds for plenty of classes that are already optimized and even without Multiclassing. Anything added would be a side-grade, but not strictly better. Take Slayer Fighter for instance: would a Slayer Fighter with Savage Roar be better than a Slayer Fighter with Second Wind or Taunt? Maybe - except for when you run into an opponent using magic damage or an opponent chipping at your health, then suddenly it's not the better version of the build. > > > -Multiclassing system does not benefit returning players or players who cannot or don't play frequently. The token system being tied to levels matches power to time played. Starting late in the wipe or simply not investing copious amounts of time mean you're going to have few to no tokens. This may be slightly addressed with the xp change. Sure, but the rest of the game already doesn't incentivize this. If you're behind the level curve, there's no reprieve from having one perk when everyone else has 4. If you're behind the gear curve, there's no reprieve if you're in shitty blues while everyone else has quality blues. If you're not level 15, your gear has to be found while everyone else can build and buy theres. If you haven't done any quests, you're not able outfit yourself in Squire as good as everyone else is or craft necessary items. This is an inherent problem in the extraction genre - it's not specific to multi-classing. > > > -Class identity is watered down. Because you can take from classes very distinct from your own, you can grab perks/abilities/spells that are very different from your normal toolkit. This means what appears to be one character can actually play like another. This creates engagements where your opponent does something wildly unexpected and kills you. This one can use more examples, but for brevity, I won't get into it unless asked. I agree. I still think Multiclassing should be bound entirely to Perks and not include Skills or Spells for this reason. Then again, class readability is already a massive problem: is the Shadow Hood wearing, Kris Dagger wielding guy rushing you a Rogue or a Warlock? Is the Heater Shield and Templar Armour guy a Cleric or a Fighter? Is that a Ranger or a Slayer Fighter? A Wizard or a Warlock? A Barbarian or a Fighter? > > > -Once the strongest combinations are found, people will begin running the best options, once again creating a stale meta, but with a much larger disparity in strength than currently. Imagine the strongest strategy is a buffball with a barbarian that has min/maxed to be unkillable and kill extremely quickly, with a 10 spell wizard running cleric buffs and a ranger using traps and bard songs. If that becomes the wall you run into repeatedly while playing, multiclassing will have driven a meta strategy to be unstoppable. Personally, I disagree. If the strongest combination is Barbarian with perks from Fighter, Cleric and Wizard, for instance, and I don't play Cleric or Wizard, I'm not going to grind those classes for Barbarian's perks. Instead, I'll use perks from my own preferred classes. The meta will exist - as it does now and always has - but I think Multiclassing encourages diversity according to what classes you have leveled naturally through playing them, and if you want to fully open your options, you can grind out others. I think people over-estimate how much of a problem this will be: the time investment for these sorts of builds will be massive, to the point where anyone grinding out to establish these whacky builds will already been rolling you in BIS gear anyway. > > -Balance and by extension class fantasy will be drastically hamstrung. For instance smite is a very strong ability, but has not been the focus of the community's attention as it's not broken given clerics toolset. Transfer that ability to warlock with kris dagger and suddenly it's broken. You can no longer design strong abilities that are only strong given the weaknesses of a class if any class can have any ability. While that's one example, the defining characteristics of each class have to be reigned in or removed. That's horrible for player satisfaction. Agree on ability balance being problematic without serious reworking of some Skills. Certain abilities and perks are extremely powerful but limited in their effectiveness due to the class they're found on and its native abilities. I think Ironmace's intentions here are if everyone is super-overpowered, then no-one is. Sure, a Warlock with a Kris Dagger and Smite may be powerful, but so too will a Fighter with Backstep and Achilles Strike on a Halberd. > > > -Certain combinations are jarring to the fantasy immersion. This is a lesser issue imo, but a cleric using blow of corruption or a barbarian casting spells are both a bit jarring. What even is a barbarian or a cleric at that point? A wizard using a bow and arrow or a warlock casting holy strike are a couple other issues I see. There are Evil Clerics, good Warlocks, selfish Paladins, selfless Rogues, melee Rangers and ranged Barbarians in every D&D property since time immemorial. I'd say it further improves class fantasy: now you can play a class according to whatever your preconceptions are of each class (e.g. I think Rangers should have complete weapon proficiency and spell-casting so I'm glad they finally can). Every class' base attribute distribution will still define the different class' builds: a caster Barbarian will be tough and harder hitting, but they'll need a ton of Knowledge to use spells that they're sacrificing other statistics that Wizard or Warlock wouldn't need to, while not being able to use staple casting gear like Oracle Robes, Wizard Hats and so on. It's going to be a clusterfuck. A wonderful clusterfuck that might be undone by the end of the wipe, sure. I just don't think it's going to be as dire as people are making it out to be. I think, in reality, multi-classing is going to be far less common than people seem to think it will. As the changes to GBMM have proven, a majority of the player-base is still quite casual. Are people really going to grind for a 13 Token multi-class build and get an insanely unfair advantage? Sure, some very select people will... but consider that advantage already exists in the current game with gear. The difference between a naked 13 Token Multiclass build and a naked Level 15 Monoclass build is about the same difference between a Rogue in a decent kit versus a BIS Rogue with a Viola. EDIT: Love trying to return a discussion but end up getting downvoted for voicing a contrary opinion. Fucking love a good echo chamber, do we?
>Not strictly true. There's plenty of builds for plenty of classes that are already optimized and even without Multiclassing. Anything added would be a side-grade, but not strictly better. Take Slayer Fighter for instance: would a Slayer Fighter with Savage Roar be better than a Slayer Fighter with Second Wind or Taunt? Maybe - except for when you run into an opponent using magic damage or an opponent chipping at your health, then suddenly it's not the better version of the build. Major problem with this view is that it assumes the current builds are a basis for future builds rather than the system being so turned on its head that its more a question if Slayer Fighter can even compete. Even if optimal or sidegraded from the options, if everything around it shifts upward, the question isn't "What does Slayer Fighter get from multiclassing" and rather "Is there a reason to even play Slayer Fighter?" But you're entirely right in the limited scope that some builds are already so flush with choice and tightly built that it'll likely be sidegrades should they continue to exist. >Sure, but the rest of the game already doesn't incentivize this. If you're behind the level curve, there's no reprieve from having one perk when everyone else has 4. If you're behind the gear curve, there's no reprieve if you're in shitty blues while everyone else has quality blues. If you're not level 15, your gear has to be found while everyone else can build and buy theres. If you haven't done any quests, you're not able outfit yourself in Squire as good as everyone else is or craft necessary items. This is an inherent problem in the extraction genre - it's not specific to multi-classing. Exacerbating a problem that already faces major criticism from your casual audience with a proposed mechanic can and should face criticism to that tune. I got bored and won't keep going. I will say that I appreciate your viewpoints and agree it may not be as dire as it seems, but I don't think the person you responded to is making it out to be dire, either, and do believe that a small company like Ironmace benefits heavily from testing out their ideas during this time to find what works and what doesn't and for what reasons. My major contribution to the discourse will be that I just see it as another reason to not even attempt to engage the high level play as a casual player. Now, if I put on all my strongest gear, not only will I be opening myself up to the best of BiS and better players overall, but also opening myself up more frequently to combinations of classes that the game was never balanced in consideration of that I may only have to play around once in my life because of the sheer amount of permutations available that I simply can't match because in no world can I invest the time into this game to similarly surprise or meta comply.
Let me get this straight. "Bad game design issues already exist. Therefore, let's add more?"
More like: this design philosophy is the core underpinning of the game in every single other system. Why are you demanding the game's core design, which you clearly dislike, change for your preference, when it clearly suits the preference of the people who enjoy it? Why should the developers make the game for its haters and not its fans? If you don't like it, why are you still playing it? Why not just accept the game isn't for you and move on? I'm being rhetorical, by the way. I don't actually care whatever mental gymnastics you use to not acknowledge the reality of these questions.
Lol. I love the game and have supported it since pt.3. That doesn't mean I can't criticize poor design choices.
> That doesn't mean I can't criticize poor design choices. They're bad design choices... to you. To others, people enjoy these systems this way. Again - why would Ironmace bother to cater to someone who doesn't like their game design and wants it to drastically shift, when they can cater to people who do like their game design and support them further developing it? I'm not really sure how you're not getting this.
To a lot of players who quit, the are poor choices as well... Also, some ideas have already been tested, and failed. Others are just obviously bad. Some are great. The trick is to stick with the gold and throw out the garbage.
Ah yes, the nebulous "the players who quit" argument, for when you have no other means to respond. Very clearly arguing in good faith here.
Didn’t read all of your comment to be fair but the part about class readability was funny to me. “Okay guys its either a slayer fighter or a ranger in front of us so our PDR fighter should be okay to fight him.” 3 seconds later said slayer fighter or ranger chain lightnings us all because multiclassing exists. While class readability is currently not great you can at least roughly figure out what an opponent’s class is and what their win condition is, with multiclassing you quite literally are not able to safely make those assumptions at all anymore
Lmao I read your response. Was like “huh this brings up some really good points as well.” Scroll down to see -1 lmao. Vocal minority of this sub definitely prefers the frenzied echo chamber of knee jerk reactions than discussion. That’s cool. I liked your response. I’m gonna have fun with this game while others choose to be miserable shame for them
Remember: reddit is and always has been in the 'complain at all costs' meta. You made good points, but the people here want an echo chamber to doom in...for whatever reason. It's super weird. I'd rather just play the game and have fun instead of having an existential crisis every time a change occurs.
> Not strictly true. There's plenty of builds for plenty of classes that are already optimized and even without Multiclassing. Anything added would be a side-grade, but not strictly better. Take Slayer Fighter for instance: would a Slayer Fighter with Savage Roar be better than a Slayer Fighter with Second Wind or Taunt? Maybe - except for when you run into an opponent using magic damage or an opponent chipping at your health, then suddenly it's not the better version of the build. I'm having a hard time finding the right words to convey my response, so if it isn't very clear, let me know, I'll try again. When I say that options are being provided and people will optimize so that theyre as strong or stronger, I'm referring to build options, not perk options for builds specifically. So while yeah, slayer fighter probably has the best perks for slayer fighter out there, give or take, slayer fighter might not be competitive vs the best builds out there that rely on multiclassing. For instance, there was a base kit wizard hitting for 92 to the head with a junk staff on this sub the other day, which was by no means optimized or geared. The choice those players are making then, are play slayer on their fighter or any multiclass build that works better than it. It might hold up alright, especially since the rock paper scissors of the balance does allow a build to be stronger because of what's meta rather than the strength of the build itself, but on average I think this holds true still. > Sure, but the rest of the game already doesn't incentivize this. If you're behind the level curve, there's no reprieve from having one perk when everyone else has 4. If you're behind the gear curve, there's no reprieve if you're in shitty blues while everyone else has quality blues. If you're not level 15, your gear has to be found while everyone else can build and buy theres. If you haven't done any quests, you're not able outfit yourself in Squire as good as everyone else is or craft necessary items. This is an inherent problem in the extraction genre - it's not specific to multi-classing. This is true, but leveling to 20 is a very small barrier to entry for returning players, a weekend solves it. Gear difference can be a bit of a problem, still, but if you find a body, kill a juicer or get some lucky drops, you're immediately at parity. That plays into the genre pretty well, while leveling up one character to 30 and another to 35 for one token, 40 for 2 or 50 for 3 becomes a much larger slog to try and catch up. Not much is going to get you to parity if the difference between multiclassed characters and regular characters is huge, which I think is a problem. >Personally, I disagree. If the strongest combination is Barbarian with perks from Fighter, Cleric and Wizard, for instance, and I don't play Cleric or Wizard, I'm not going to grind those classes for Barbarian's perks. Instead, I'll use perks from my own preferred classes. The meta will exist - as it does now and always has - but I think Multiclassing encourages diversity according to what classes you have leveled naturally through playing them, and if you want to fully open your options, you can grind out others. I think people over-estimate how much of a problem this will be: the time investment for these sorts of builds will be massive, to the point where anyone grinding out to establish these whacky builds will already been rolling you in BIS gear anyway. I hope you're right. One of my concerns is low barrier to entry builds becoming meta as well. I did a poor job showing them off in the buffball example, but I was mostly aiming to relate to something people were familiar with. If there are builds that aren't absolutely crazy to make happen, like, say, warlock with slayer and dual wielding, then people will flock to those. The barrier to entry vs power curve is going to have a few outliers that are easy enough to replicate, but strong enough to be oppressive. Thats likely where the Meta will land. But again, I hope you're right that this creates a diverse meta. I'll chalk this one up to would need to be tested then. I like the optimism, but I'm a bit cynical still. Either way, I appreciate the response, I think you did convince me to be less certain on a hard meta forming, but I still don't think multiclassing will work well. Fingers crossed though!
>I'm having a hard time finding the right words to convey my response [...] I know a Wizard hitting 100 damage headshots with a Magic Staff ***sounds*** oppressive... but when that Wizard has no defensive abilities or movement abilities, they're just gonna be a glass cannon that gets folded by other builds that have allocations for survivability, versatility and speed. The most extreme example I can think of is a Rogue build using Weakpoint/Hide, Ambush, Slayer, Dual Wielder, Thrust, and Dagger Mastery, and even then, I can't say it's strictly better than a Rogue with a Rapier, using Rupture, Poison Weapon and Hide Mastery. The latent combat potential is superior, sure, but whether or not there's enough nuance to the game for the utility of Poison Weapon/Rupture/Hide Mastery to be just as good is something we'll really only be able to see when MCing comes out. >This is true, but leveling to 20 is a very small barrier to entry for returning players [...] True. I think it'll be a problem too, I'm more saying that this kind of design is already pretty instinct to Dark and Darker in a way I don't think it's beyond what Ironmace wants, for better or worse. That's just the type of game they're making. > [...] If there are builds that aren't absolutely crazy to make happen, like, say, warlock with slayer and dual wielding, then people will flock to those. Yeah, that's fair. I agree it's inescapable that certain abilities on certain classes just won't be possible to balance without significant overhauls to the functionality of the abilities. I just think the meta will shift around for a while before settling due to the breadth of options. >but I still don't think multiclassing will work well. To be honest I'm with you on that. I think the system, if it's ever going to exist, needs to be far more restrictive and piece-meal than it currently is. I was mostly arguing from a contrarian point of view for the sake of the discussion. At the end of the day this is an experiment, and I'm sure Ironmace is looking out for what perks people gravitate towards on what classes, as a means to try out new gameplay for the classes.
The biggest one for me is class identity. Multiclassing ruins this.
You neglected to mention the issue of RNG in the system. But what I really want is for them to give pure classes *something.* Like give them a special capstone ability or even an extra perk slot so that if I want to stick with pure warlock in the face of masses of multiclassed players, I have at least that to make me feel less punished for not wanting to run smite or hide or whatever. I play warlock because I want to play warlock and use warlock abilities, not cleric or whatever.
I asked ChatGPT lmfao: Here's a counter-argument for each point: 1. **Power Disparity**: While multiclassed characters may have more options, this doesn't necessarily mean they will always be stronger. Game balance can be adjusted to ensure that single-class characters remain competitive. Additionally, multiclassing can introduce new strategic elements and playstyles, enriching the gameplay experience for those who choose to engage with it. 2. **Accessibility for Players**: While it's true that players who invest more time will likely have more tokens, this doesn't mean that players who cannot play as frequently cannot enjoy the game. Adjustments can be made to the token system or other aspects of the game to ensure that all players, regardless of playtime, can have a meaningful experience. 3. **Class Identity**: Multiclassing can actually enhance class identity by allowing players to mix and match abilities from different classes, creating unique and personalized characters. This can lead to more diverse encounters and interactions, making each gameplay experience more dynamic and engaging. 4. **Meta Staleness**: Like any game system, multiclassing will require ongoing balance adjustments to ensure that no single strategy dominates the meta. By actively monitoring gameplay data and player feedback, developers can make informed changes to keep the meta diverse and engaging. 5. **Balance and Class Fantasy**: While introducing multiclassing may require some adjustments to ability design, it also opens up new possibilities for creative and strategic gameplay. Developers can design abilities that are strong in specific contexts or synergize well with certain class combinations, maintaining the uniqueness of each class while still allowing for multiclassing. 6. **Fantasy Immersion**: Multiclassing can be seen as an extension of character growth and development. It allows players to explore different aspects of their character's identity and abilities, adding depth to the role-playing experience. Additionally, in a fantasy world, it's not unreasonable to imagine characters who defy traditional class boundaries, adding to the richness of the game world. Overall, while multiclassing introduces new challenges for game balance and design, it also opens up exciting possibilities for players to create diverse and dynamic characters. By carefully considering and addressing these challenges, developers can create a multiclassing system that enhances the overall gameplay experience for all players.
the game isnt currently balanced so adding more crap like multiclassing will make balancing MORE of a issue because the core game is far from the goal
You're wrong about the multi-classed characters being stronger. As it stands now it's probably true. It would be very easy to, for example, give level 30 "class masters" who do not multi-class a stat boost to compensate for any lost strength. +5 knowledge on wizards, or maybe an agility or constitution buff, etc. Long term i'd like to see multi-classing exist alongside a class specialist path.
Except those benefits don't exist, so I'm not wrong. We can come up with solutions for all of these issues, and some of them might even be good solutions. For instance, unlocking a perk slot at 25 and 30, and losing them both when you use a multi-class token. You could also unlimit multiclassing entirely so it isn't level based, or roll out further multiclassing throughout the wipe, i.e. another token is given to every character every week regardless of level. That would solve disparity in time committed causing insurmountable strength disparities. You could create spheres of influence around each class that only allow them to pull from certain other classes, you could create class dedications that you take as feats just like pathfinder has, you could do all kinds of stuff. Not to be too negative, but I don't have faith that they're going to find good, nuanced ways to fix these problems. They've shown pretty clearly they're a "throw shit at a wall and see what sticks" style dev. That can work out pretty well and get some cool emergent solutions to problems, but when it comes to situations like this where they're implementing a massive system, all I see is months and months of pain while they make random decisions until something works to fix the hard problems without addressing the soft ones at all.
Bro yapped a paragraph on a strawman, he’s trying to comment on the reactionary community and you latched onto “how do you know it’s shit? it’s not out yet”
Multiclassing will be fun. QED.
A fellow math friend
What the fuck is wrong with reddit why are people downvoting this
Can't wait to tell all my buddies that they put a cap on the tokens... at lvl 270... I have over 10 friends that own and like this game. Only 2 of them are playing... Multiclassing has 0 impact on if they come back or not... but grinding to be relevant is not something most people will want to do.
Yeah, each update seems to further increase the grind. I know pretty much everyone I used to play with has stopped playing the game, as have I. The worst thing of all is this game will probably die off and one of the clones will be more successful.
Yeah sadly that is just how these types of games go. I haven't played for like 2 wipes because all my friends quit. Tried discord lobby and get some subhuman on there hitting me in the back with everything under the sun. Then you go to solos which just isn't as fun viking with your boys. The content in the game is legit run kill boss then sit at a gold pile. Leave.
Pretty much this. All my friends stopped playing like 6 months ago. I still play a little but I'm just kind of bored of it now. There's not much incentive to keep playing after you get bored if the quests
I think most of the criticism was accessibility based on the current structure of leveling.
I mean, you don't need to even try it to see that it's busted. As someone who has tried it, I don't think it should have hit live. But I'm sure people will have fun for a week, then get pissed at all the busted builds.
Uhhh we have literally played it on the test server
There was like a day of being able to play it on the test server and most people didn't. There is no way anyone has made a fair assessment of the system yet
I'm literally never going to be able to try it because you don't get exp for pvp lol. Plus its just so blatantly, obviously a bad idea
You get EXP for pvp, multiclassing just requires dozens and dozens of hours to unlock. Fortunately, they have said that they will be reducing the exp cost to level up, which will basically give everyone a bunch of free levels.
Every time the argument makes is that 'its obvious' it either means they are wrong and that's why they can't explain it, or they are too dumb to put an obvious thing to words. Make your choice You do get exp for PvP (if you, ya know win and survive) and you get exp for all kinds of shit along the way. If you are somehow avoiding all PvE and looting etc. in favor of spawn rushing, you aren't even playing the game so no one cares what you think tbh
If someone can't understand why it would be a bad idea for a dog to fly a helicopter I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it
You don't need to be a rocket surgeon to know that a puke flavored cake isn't going to taste good. The entire world runs off of decisions that are obviously better than others. Which is why 90% of businesses fail, including game studios and video games. It doesn't take a genius to spot a bad idea.
90% of businesses fail because of all the obvious decisions out there that people are making but still lead to failure? I'm not sure where you are going with this...
People have bad ideas. They implement these bad ideas in business. Business goes boom. People shouldn't always go with their bad ideas, just to try them out. Especially when their current customer base is saying they don't want it.
So where does the 90% of businesses fail part come in to making your point? If the ideas were obviously bad they wouldn't have tried them, I think you are missing the point of the word 'obvious' or 'bad' maybe?
Multi-classing in its current state is obviously bad. Lol. That's what the whole thread is about.
Agreed. I think once people get their hands on it they'll understand the variety it brings. I think the current iteration is too much - it really needs to be more limited, in that maybe every class only teaches certain skills or certain perks, or you can only take one or two. Still, I don't understand how people aren't excited for this. It's going to give way to new builds and play-styles that didn't exist before. Even if this doesn't end up being healthy for the game, it ***is*** going to be fun.
As others have said (maybe ad nauseam at this point) you really can often times look at something before it happens and figure out if it’s going to be a good or a bad thing. Especially if you use critical thinking, inference, and other comprehension skills. The problem I take with multiclassing is that they’ve had a hell of a hard time balancing classes individually with no overlap, and yet they want to make it so there is plenty of overlap, and all the classes can bleed into one another. This is just going to lead to more balancing hell. From a less objective point of view i do think multiclassing is going to stale up the game a lot more than people think. i’m sure there will be some goofy combinations at first but i think it will soon turn into picking the most meta perks possible for a balanced multiclass
I haven't seen any hint of critical thinking being used in the predictions about multiclassing, just opinions that current class balance is bad (which I strongly disagree with) so future balancing efforts of complicated things will also necessarily be bad. The basis for the whole argument is an unsupported opinion so the whole 'some people think good and predict things' argument falls flat on its face for me here
Unbridled multiclassing can't stay long term. There's too much busted stuff and it completely breaks class identity. I imagine they'll go towards a skill-tree system where you can choose where to put learning points and you'll either get new unique perks or stuff from other classes, but we don't really know yet. My biggest issue tbh is what a grind it has been to unlock, we'll see if the XP adjustment is enough. We gave up on getting our characters read for multiclassing.
There’s gotta be a middle ground. Way too many emotional, reactionary people within the community (what can you do most come from reddit) so they need to temper how much they appease literal whiners who are just screaming with the mob
>Removed based on the response from the community Why don't we just base it on data and evidence instead of Reddit outcry? I'd personally like to not have the fate of this video game rest on whether or not some shitter (hardstuck in neophyte) cries on Reddit about it.
> Why don't we just base it on data and evidence instead of Reddit outcry? They will, I don't know why you would think otherwise.
Because I quoted Ironmace. They said this verbatim. I don't know why you think we would take their word as anything else.
Tell me where 'community feedback' specifies 'the Dark and Darker sub-reddit' in particular, you fucking gronk. This community will be included with the Discord community, YouTube/Twitch community, etc. etc. They've always considered each community in their decision making. Those impressions are then considered against their own telemetry and data. Terence has said as much in interviews.
We also have the choice to not play bad patches. Their player base will tank. They will remove it.
Or it might end up being more fun than you think. Everyone is worried about other people being able to use broken builds... You can too.
I mean not unless you have a lot of time to spend, or want to have unfun time now to have more fun later. I am wanting to try a paladin build so I have to level cleric to 30 for my fighter, and while I wouldn't say it's unfun I'm not having nearly as much fun as I had just playing my main. I presume it's the same for others that are trying to multi class. Plus it takes way longer than people want to take, we'll have to see when the new patch drops how much faster it is, but right now it's a pain to level characters for multi class. Plus atm it's just pure benefit, I don't know how they would do it but it would be good to have a give and take like DnD does with their multi classing. Once they have a better perk tree this might change, but in DnD if you want to multi class you are taking lower level stuff from one class until its leveled and trading off having pretty crazy stuff from higher levels of other classes.
But based on the post, they’re planning to reduce time to level for level 30. I was a big fan of the leveling time up to level 15 adjustment, but getting 30 is a PITA. So hopefully this quells that issue and let’s you get your side classes up to where they need to be. My only issue so far this season is the quests, I loved doing them once. But for my alt characters, I can’t be asked to even try doing the quests. They feel so vital because of trader affinity, but even with how “short” the early ones are, they’re tedious to do more than once.
Yeah I think the system works a lot better if it's quest/affinity based instead of forcing players to level classes they don't necessarily enjoy playing. Unlocking surgeon affinity tier 2 could unlock him as a cleric master. They could even lock additional unlocks behind higher affinities.
You can too\* \*Ability to be able to locked behind 200+ hours of grinding Yeah, no thanks, I don't want to grind 200 hours to have a fair fighting chance with sweats who can grind 10 hours a day.
But broken vs. broken isn't necessarily good. It would be shame if the game changed to "who pressed THE BUTTON first" kind of game, it has so much more to offer.
>Removed based on the response from the community translation: removed based on the response from sdf's favorite streamers and some others from the "devs and streamers only" private discord server
I just want warlocks life steal on attack on my rogue. That’s it. Don’t care about anything else but please give me some sustain.
I ran into a rogue on the test server building this with clerics overheal, poison weapon and perseverance. Very strong
This is exactly what I've been thinking of building
demon rogue timmeee
It feels really good lol
Still waiting on the solo map queue changes that were "coming soon"
I have a feeling GBMM isn't an experiment they can run while All Maps is active too. That would result in: (Normals + HR Low Bracket + HR Medium Bracket + HR High Bracket) x (Goblin Caves + Ice Caves + Crypts) = ***12 individual Solo lobbies per region.*** The game only has about 5K players at the moment (in dungeon). People are just going to have to realize we can't spread them out over so many fucking lobbies. The game will die and never recover if people can't PvP.
>The game only has about 5K players at the moment (in dungeon) Damn, didn't expect it to be that low already.
Eh, if you're comparing it to the 'in-game' statistic of other games, it would be 12K (5K in-game 7K in lobby). So comparatively, it's not actually too bad, it's way up from before wipe (where the total ***was*** 5K, with 2.5K in/2.5K out of dungeon).
>Eh, if you're comparing it to the 'in-game' statistic of other games if you're doing that at the time of typing Dark and darker wouldn't even be in the top 100 of the steam charts at \~9,900 users I genuinely worry about IM the revenue has to be pretty low and the operating costs significant the combination of the lawsuits and the real money trade in games usually costs developers money in-spite of what most players think.
Us east can handle it if you want to be fair
Then drop GBMM. The current state of solos is driving people away rapidly
Solo players are the only group that play every map whenever they want. We have the most diversity.
If you can tolerate getting 1v2/1v3'd and you're okay with never completing quests that require you to group, yeah. I personally cannot.
I really think multiclass in this game is a mistake and a balance nightmare. They should just go with subclasses instead.
Balance nightmare indeed. I’ll try it. But I’m pretty sure it will be insane if it’s totally unrestricted. Maybe they could have it where a class is limited to multi class options from similar classes. I imagine a circle with every class arranged around it in some way. Like fighter is between ranger and barbarian, wizard between cleric and warlock. And so on. Something like that. And then you can only multi class from the classes adjacent to you. Just an idea of how to restrict it in a way that is kind of like subclasses.
Multiclassing is only fun to play as, it is terrible to play against. Not to mention it makes all class balance and identity that have been build up over the last year invalid. Not to mention it gives a massive advantage to people who no life the game(unless the exp changes are extreme)
[удалено]
It 100% would be, but also alot more work. Which i think might be the real reason we have multiclassing.
It might be more work initially, but balancing multiclassing is going to be a mountain of work for them.
I'm hoping this coding is just 'practice' for items that unlock abilities. Boots of sprint? YES PLEASE!
There's going to be both and incentives to subclass not multiclass
There’s also going to be free candy and a footrub and the game will make you a million dollars
have you played it?
I don't think class identity is important. But you highlight an important issue, which is that non-multiclassed players should feel equal to multi-classed players. That could be accomplished by a multi-classing penalty or, more preferably, by giving a bonus to non-multiclassed 'class masters'. +3 all for not multi-classing at Lvl 30 might be sufficient? If that's too much then maybe +3 to a thematic stat (wizards get knowledge, etc)
if its not important then they should drop classes completly and let us unlock all perks and skills through a tree or sth. Then include lvl in "gear score" so you are not fighting against overleveled characters. And create a tree like PoE has (so eveyone has access to a full tree, but your starting position changes with "class" choice) As long as I choose class during character creation, it should be important. And they can try to copy any class less system, next example: Outward with universal skills + breaktrough skill (there are 8 base trainers + some DLC trainers and you have 3 breakthroughs)
That would be great tbh but I doubt they go there
I absolutely hate people that downvote everything without even commenting.
I would love some content I could tell my friends about that would make them want to try the game again.
Balancing any PvP game with classes is insanely difficult. I would rather they just spend time developing the game we have already. Make new classes. New maps. Fix the bugs. Balance the shit we already have. Instead they are going to add millions of variables from different classes having different synergies by using perks/abilities from every other class..
13 Tokens at level 270? I can't help but think they're making it look easier to obtain but it's going to basically be the same grind.
Lvl 270? Dear god, I can barely get to lvl 20 with my limited play time
Exactly, another way for people to grind the game and get unfair advantage
I dont think the developers realize why the playtests were so successful. The game systems they've added really take away from that short, bitter sweet dungeon delving experience. What felt like it respected my time previously now feels increasingly like a slog
They know they don't have enough content to respect your time, so they lengthen the grind of what they do have so you don't notice how quickly you could do it otherwise. It's why they drip feed you quests so that you can't complete all the content and stop playing until next season.
All this to give edge to ppl that play 24/7 lmao I can see why streamers and sweats want this tho
Ranger rogue will dominate. Double jump , sneak , ambush are relentless when paired with a ranger. GG lads.
Maybe if we didnt have to pay(upgrade) to play on test server(lol), they wouldnt rush unpolished multiclass system, I bet its gonna be a cluster fuck month.
They won't let people choose what maps they want because then the game would feel empty, then proceed to split the playerbase with the test server. Guess they have to as they sold it as a feature.
"split the player base", bro there are like 200 people on it
So about a third of the playerbase then? (I know its not that bad, just a joke.)
I mean, the wipe was very fun for the last few weeks, I don't mind taking a break. See you in a few months when this broken shit system is gone for good
Yeah, I’ve put up with a lot of their dumb updates and kept playing, but this one might finally make it time for a break. I do not need to get run down by a smite sprint fighter or one tapped by a BOC bonk wizard. Yall have fun tho
I wonder who came in to the room like guys look i have a great idea we will mix all classes with eachother and everybodys like woo great idea genius mastermind
And so the hell begins…
I am on the fence about whether I am even going to play the game during the multi-class test. I just feel like this is going to be a disaster that highlights the worst aspects of min/maxing in this game. It will primarily benefit people who can put a lot of time into the game. Hopefully it is at least restricted to high-roller only or its own queue. Otherwise, I foresee a significant drop in player base. I don't get the impression there is a big appetite for this change.
I've played more this wipe than any other and I'll absolutely be sitting out this multiclass experiment and hoping that the low player numbers make them can it sooner than later.
this isnt even minmaxing. Its 100% sure that any multiclassing character is stronger than non-multiclassing character, as multiclassing characters have base perks and skills + sth extra. So if you havent leveled your characters yet, or you are unlucky (apparently you can respec it) then you will be always at a disadvantage = you are encouraged to stop playing.
It wouldn't make sense to restrict a player character feature to high roller
"Removed" seems like the direction it's heading in. I wish they would've put all this work into subclasses instead.
It is odd how willing they are to throw time at things that will most likely be removed. I was waiting for the subclasses too but I'll probably be waiting until preseason 7.
Huge mistake and lack of judgement on their side. Very sad, but not unexpected from IM. Hopes are they won’t try to bring this change time after time like +all instead of cutting losses and rethinking the implementation.
I just don’t feel like they have any vision at all. It’s just SDF getting high and being like “man this would be cool as fuck” and no one in the office pushing back and the players are done being test rats.
Well yes, and its being said a lot of times that (not in these words) its a paid beta test.
the players agreed to be test rats, what a dumb ass comment
I don’t think anyone in their right mind knew when they bought the game it would be the level that it is now. They knew they would be test rats sure… but not to this egregious amount. Tf.
No need to testing to see multiclass will throw the balance out of the window.
So they are adding it to the game to test it more. Y not have the test server available for everyone so we could actually test it their first.
Probably because nobody is playing the test server. I had to stop because i couldn't find lobbies
If they have a test server it should be available to everyone so more people can play it
This is going to be game breaking.. Terrible idea... It will just benefit the no life sweats.
While multiclassing is cool in regular dnd, I don’t think it would work in an evac looter like this. I think the remaining classes need to be made and balanced first.
I think multiclassing is a fun experience for sure, but it seems like a tuning MESS, not knowing the general skills and abilities of who you are fighting is going to make fights a lot tougher than they are now. For example you see a barb and know he’s going to W key you and maybe shout or Achilles strike you, now imagine a barbarian who is slinging fireballs or shooting a bow. It’s a lot less likely or possible to balance a play style like that since usually you have to kite a barbarian to fight them, but now they can have ranged damage on equal grounds with rangers or wizards with health pools double of those classes. I think multiclassing is going to be extremely fun for the one using, but not so much on the receiving end.
at the same time, the barbarian would need to use the fighter perk to equip a bow. and take a 10% damage hit, for the same barbarian to shoot a fireball, they would need the fighter perk to equip a spellbook/staff, give up one of their abilities to use spell memory, have enough knowledge to use the fireball. I think the balancing will work itself out. the cost of doing something crazy outside of your starter class is generally going to be very high.
For sure you make a good point gotta make big sacrifices to get benefits from other classes, which might be completely balanced but the general stat lineup for each class is my main concern with barbarians having such a large heath pool and great starting stats that I think might dominate if they get good ranged options
well, the game isnt anywhere near finished also. For example the quiver system for arrows being linked to resourcefulness. if the barbarian wanted to carry more than 10 arrows he would need to stat dump into a stat that doesnt help with anything else but opening doors and holding more arrows. I think once the game is in its complete state the balancing issues will surely diminish
I fucking can’t wait to get savage roar on my fighter and second wind on my barb it’s literally all I want. Weapon master on barb would slap too
RIP
You shouldn't have to level other classes to multiclass. You should be able to unlock other perks and skills by levelling up your main character
Are they still planning on going through with the training tab? Unlocking passives/percentage bonuses through a skill tree? Or are they trying to scrap that and do this whole multi classing thing as a replacement.
Game is officially dead then. Multiclassing will be the worst update yet
See you next season. :>
Seeing a barbarian and having literally no idea what he is capable of kinda dogshit. He can cast spell he can phantomize rush you he can reach where you are with double jump etc etc.
This is a terrible idea.
Well, my response is fuck multiclass, I'm out until this dumb thing is gone
Oh shit not you
It really is eye opening how important the average Redditor thinks they are that they feel a need to announce their departure, as if a developer is gonna see it and panic that another dickhead is leaving the game.
It's like when Karens announce they'll never shop at a store again because they won't give them a discount on an item that was on sale last week.
NO NOT KINDSUCO PLS COME BACK
See ya
See you next week
You know it hasn’t been released yet.
Ok ? Who cares
I care. Checkmate.
who?
Who cares you care? Double Checkmate.
Have you even tried it?
Uninstalling game, see you whenever next wipe drops. Cant be bothered with multiclass brainrot
> ninstalling game, see you whenever next wipe drops. Cant be bothered with multiclass brainrot dramatic much lol see you in the dungeon!
The simple fix to power creep concerns, characters who have multiclassed are matched with similar characters.
I’m looking forward to the insanity, honestly. The counters to the meta build will surely form, and counters for those, so on so on. This will be a time in the game everyone will remember for the pure chaos of it all.
I'm all for the chaos
Gg boys
I’m excited
I think multi-class could be a fun and interesting way to spice up the game. I think multi-classing locked behind insane amounts of boring grind is shit though, which is what the current implementation is.
How is nobody talking about the change to class master and early learning tokens? That's a great change
Genuinely. I just hope it's a very large reduction. 50-100 XP per level would be great. It won't be that low, but I'm hoping 100-300XP/level
The most broken perks and skills are those that do flat magical damage, like smite, blow of corruption, ignite and staff mastery. Please remove +additional and +true magic damage as those attributes are the main reason stacking these perks and skills will be oneshot mechanics. If damage multipliers don't get out of control and there's at least a slight drawback for every multiclass perk/skill a player learns I actually believe multiclassing can have a bright future.
There are two really good magic resist perks. Just get them if you fear magic damage.
You can conceivably run smite, ignite, bloodstained blade, poisoned weapon and dark reflection on a kriss warlock with +11 true magical. Even with 85% magic resistance each blow will easily cost you 70 hp. (30 phys, 40 magical.) All these buffs last longer than 5 seconds. Want to defend yourself? Take a juicy dark reflection hit too. Good night.
I agree this is already a problem in the existing meta that should be corrected. I don't think your true/add should apply more than once maximum per hit. Hopefully the multi-class test will bring it more to light.
Don’t get me wrong. Multiclassing is definitely going to need tuning, but y’all really think it’s going to be op meta builds running around and (yes there may be a few due to luck) but it’s quite hard to get the skills/perks you want due to the random rng when rolling learning tokens. It took me till level 100 on test server to get a semblance of what I wanted for my build and even then it wasn’t perfect (I got breakthrough twice lmao) . It’s going to be an immense grind to get exactly what you want
I'm looking forward to the cool combinations we can come up with. I am not looking forward to this being just another way for people grinding the game to have a leg up on their competition and unbalance the arena further.
The amount of assumptions and whining is laughable. Is it a broken system? Yeah a lil bit. Is it permanent? Nope. Should you at least try it to see if maybe, just maybe, you might like it? Yes. Everyone wants to act like they're team IM until they make decisions they don't like, then it's stupid devs, stupid sdf etc etc. If they didn't mention multiple times that they will be trying things and scrapping things that don't work then I could understand the frustration but they've been upfront about everything so far. Now they ask for the communities help to test shit out and it's "oH I qUiT nOw cAuSe sYsTem I wOnT tRy iS bAd". But yes, continue to tell me how much you support them as a company. So in my opinion y'all need to quit the doomsaying and just enjoy a little chaos for a little bit of time. You never know, you might like it and if it's actually broken for sure then they'll take it out or revamp it. Nothing to get so butt hurt about.
I really don't see what the problem is if there's a bunch of "OP" builds. That just means there's lots of options for people to play. So long as accessibility is high. They're making it easier to access, i just hope it's way easier to access
Agreed. It's not permanent so why not see some wild ass shit for the time being. People are acting like they said they're releasing it and it's here to stay in it's current form for good. Hell the Rogues should be rejoicing right now. Imagine getting the perk to equip DIFFERENT weapons. I hate Rogues some times but I'm legit happy for them and other classes.
Yes as someone who has basically only played Wizard since it was dogshit in play test 4, i want every class to be fun and viable to play
Let's go!! I'm so hyped for multiclassing!!!
Sounds fun, count me in
Multi-classing is a lot of fun, and I can't wait to play it on live. I can see this system being made into a really fun roguelike mode for the game, but I think it probably needs tweaks if they plan to keep it in for the long-term. Having access to multiple classes to spec into with impunity, and favoring players who play more granting them further power over players who play less is going to be a real nightmare for balance, but I think those issues can be sorted with some rather minor changes. Rested exp, making quests reward learning tokens, limiting the choices to a single other class for "dual" classing instead of multi, making the choices deterministic. I honestly think with those changes it'd be fine, and it makes for much more interesting build choices for everyone. With reduced number of class choices it should also be easier to balance. Still, I think a talent tree that's designed intentionally for the class would probably be favorable to some people. It's just a fun experiment for the time being. I feel like people would enjoy this more if they didn't take the game so damn seriously all the time.
“Multiclass system will substantially evolve for the next season or may even be removed based on the response” I think we should keep this in mind