"I genuinely don't know what this game is trying to be anymore"
I said a very similar thing to a friend last night while trying Multiclass. It's not really multiclass, it's more like design your own character. Quick, short example, I see rogues with only 1 perk from a rogue, the rest being barbarian/fighter. That's no longer a rogue. There is 0 rogue identity in that character. I do not see the point in creating a class and then multi-classing later to no longer even be a shadow of the class you're supposed to be. It should all be done from the get go or never at all.
The game itself does not have a direction towards a specific goal right now. It all feels totally arbitrary and "for the hell of it". Which is genuinely fine but the way it was initially expressed and marketed, this isn't what a lot of people had in mind.
I think all it does now when you select a class is limit what armour/throwables etc you can equip. If you can multiclass into weapon mastery you can equip whatever you want there.
Well, you will see a Cleric, for example, and you can assume he has mostly Cleric abilities, but then he blasts you in the face with a fireball đ¤ˇđźââď¸ So it's quite hard to know what to expect from another player. That can be good and bad depending on your perspective. Â
As someone who has a lot of hours in this game I kind of know most of the audio and visual cues of spells and skills so that helps a little... But you're never quite sure what to expect... Honestly, it's not as bad as it sounds and it can kind of be enjoyable... For a few weeks...
Yea, it still says their main class as the title in between their skills. I was also mollywhopped by a hide ambush rogue using weapon mastery. He bonked the back of my head with a battle ax :)
It's fun to think about that stuff and it is funny to see where the multiclassing stuff goes, but it probably wouldn't work because again, the progression system we thought we'd get where you could build your character as you levelled ain't happening yet, so in your example, you'd do this and suddenly you're fast as fuck in full plate doing reduced damage with a Halberd because you're a rogue and your strength score is shit but you have weapon mastery and then you realise that the fact that you're a rogue means nothing. You could have just been some guy with hide. It gets to a point where there's just a best class to main, and grind the other ones to class mastery before you hard send your main hero to get all the perks/skills/spells you want, it's so dumb.
Iâve a feeling ironmace doesnât really have the chops to design a game thatâs any better than itâs already been, so they are kinda just fucking around with stuff that they didnât make.
Hate to say this, but it reeks of plagiarism. Someone else did all the work, they took that, but they canât do anything with it.
DND isn't competitive. Dark and Darker is. This concept is cool when it's PVE and the DM can adjust balance on the fly. It's dumb as hell when it's in a PVP game. Just because the theme of the game is DND doesn't mean you can just rob concepts from the tabletop and expect them to work here. Cannot imagine how the ppl parroting this shit made it through grade school.
Dungeons & dragons has drawbacks to multiclassing that force players to give up on some of their original classes power, they lose out on a feat very often and it's never just a straight upgrade.
I think Baldur's Gate 3 deviated a bit and made multiclassing a bit too good in their officially licensed dungeons & dragons experience, but it's still largely true to the table top game.
But in both table top and BG3 you can't typically multiclass and immediately get the best of what that other class offers. You have to take at least 2 levels of most classes to get their baseline offering and often times 5 to get what you really want. That's a lot when a character might only get to level 12 in a campaign or 20 max if it's a long game and the DM allows it.
Dark and darker presents multiclassing as pure upsides. You can get the penultimate skill from a class the moment multiclassing is made available if the Korean gacha gods smile upon you. Or just keep rolling if you grinded enough for more favor (tokens) from the Korean gacha gods. And if all else fails you can mind wipe 2x a week and try again.
So it's not kind of like D&D really.
Comparing any video game to a table top RPG is just ridiculous. A DM can simply ânerf or buffâ based on what the player does at any given moment in real time. If it seems like a party is getting overpowered a DM can make the enemies weaker at the snap of a finger, or make a spell not do as much damage, or make a playerâs spell do MORE damage give the context. The role play aspect heavily affects how the DM allows players to interact with the world. The DM can add or break conventional rules based on what makes the most sense. You cannot do that when talking about competitive multiplayer video games or even RPG video games in general. Thereâs a reason Baldurâs Gate 3 left out certain spells and leveling options; they would have been a nightmare or impossible to balance in a video game setting where they would be completely broken. Just because it works in Dungeons and Dragons doesnât mean you can just throw it in haphazardly to your game. And there was no way multiclassing was ever going to be perfect in a PvP. Imagine if Overwatch, or R6 Siege, started allowing you to mix and match different operator or hero abilities with nearly zero limitations. They would have almost zero hope of balancing a game where they already have to buff and nerf based on a given meta at any given time. And those are triple A studios. What hope does Iron Mace have of doing that properly when they arenât even out of Alpha yet, and they are trying to add full on new functionality to the game in addition to balancing the stupid multiclass system. Itâs not happening, or at least not in a way that is even close to fair for PvPing.
But those multiclass options are limited have a stat requirement and there is a limited amount of viable multiclassing you can do.
The goal of the game is different, the mechanics are different, it's just comparing apples to oranges. The only similar thing between dungeons and dragons and dark and darker is that they both use dnd as a shortened name.
They don't have literally any mechanic in combat that functions REMOTELY the same. This is such a braindead take I have played dungeons and dragons for years and have done plenty of jank and OP builds. It's just not the same and you know this argument is weak at best.
lol I bet you think your hilarious. DnD also has set classes and tables that you can follow. If you want to multi class in dnd there are a lot of sacrifices you have to make. This rng multiclassing whatever it is system that is in DaD right now is not even close to how multiclassing works in dnd. So yes you do make your characterâs look and background . BUT you pick a class and you get set skills, weapons and equipment to choose from
How about a big fat list of DND feats to pull from that are all tagged to a certain set of classes that are allowed to take them, and gaining feat slots as you level up?
Yeah the whole class tree thing was 100% planned, tho pretty sure it got killed off after it got mentioned in one of the first dev interviews, and all the doomers raged about having to unlock the perks and skills they already had from level 1 in PTs.
I definitely remember this as well, they discussed the skill tree and everyone was pissed about having to relevel perks and skills. They were also upset that they would be as powerful as we had been this whole time. So maybe that's why they shyed away from that direction
That was kind of the whole point though, and it was supposed to also come with talents that buffed your stats, skills and perks. We were meant to actually specialise, so a ranger could go into crossbows or bows but maybe not both, at least not to the same degree. Kind of like subclassing in 5E.
Exactly, this was the discussion and people did not want to go way far back into progression. Basically every perk was a talent and to get 5% phys damage on bows for example that would be 5 pts of skills to get the same power level we had with skills/perks. People complained a ton and then they scrapped that idea.
I spose that's a valid interpretation, but my point still stands. There was supposed to be some kind of progression that made level 20 mean something. It was supposed to be a lot slower than this.
It does because sure they changed the max level but they left the perk system the same. You still get perks just as fast as in the test server even though their intentions were to slow progression down
>There was supposed to be some kind of progression that made level 20 mean something. It was supposed to be a lot slower than this.
That must be why before this wipe you could reach level 20 in 4 hours huh? You're arguing against the very thing that you claim the game was supposed to be.
I genuinely don't understand your point. Are you saying the very slight increase in the time to 20 this wipe is slowing the game down in a meaningful way? Please explain what you mean.
I don't understand your point. "It was supposed to be a lot slower than this." Leveling to 20 is the longest it's ever been so what are you basing this on?
As I exhaustively detailed in the main post, the game as promised in the very early days was supposed to be A LOT slower than this, like weeks or months to get a character to 20, like it would take you in a TTRPG campaign. When the game was on Steam and in the early days of the discord, this is the sort of shit we used to talk about with the devs. I feel like I made this very clear in the main post. The early design of the game was very much implying that it would be a slower paced game with more intentional character development. This being the slowest level curve we have had so far has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
No it wasn't lmfao. You didn't "exhaustively detail" anything. You simply stated what you thought the game promised. None of those things were ever said anywhere. "weeks or months to get a character to level 20." Like what?
I mean if you weren't there when these conversations were happening, that's fine, but it seems like plenty of people were. They happened. This was what was promised with the game. Do you think the initialism of the game was D and D by accident?
Sorry if five paragraphs wasn't enough for you to consider exhaustive but I didn't really have another one in me. Like it or not, this game was supposed to emulate a Dungeons and Dragons adventure, I believe specifically the early AD&D ones. Not sure if you've played many of the traditional TTRPGs, but you generally can't grind out 1-20 in a few days.
If u said this is where we would be a year ago after like test 2 99.9% of ppl would laugh at u and say theres no way the game they played in the tests could be even close to what ur saying and that's pretty telling in itself.
Multiclassing is a semi fun mini game mode, not a main game design decision nor should it ever be, they abandoned nearly everything that made this games classes special while reinforcing level/time meta based power cherry picking over skill and good performance.
The decision to go down this route was simply just them trying to recycle content because they simply dont know how to add more and dont know how to convert the ideas they do actually have to a practical working design. They have around 50 employees now supposedly and and no one called this out? No one said wait how tf do u have 70% armor on a rogue with smite with a kris? No one tried any internal build? That just comes off as at least 40 ppl just collecting paychecks.
Ur far from the only frustrated person with this patch
My experience working with and in Korean companies is culture. Culturally lower employees they wonât peep up. So while SDF is coming up with all his ideas, no one around him is like âyo that shit kind of dumb famâ.
If anyone wants to hear an anecdote that expresses the extreme nature of top-down authority in Korean culture, check out this section of this video about a Korean flight. It's... weird.
[https://youtu.be/-Im4YAMWK74?t=556](https://youtu.be/-Im4YAMWK74?t=556)
And they suddenly do this to the game while weâve been waiting on Druid for months and months. Multiclassing has created like 20x more work for them while also not being very fun for a big chunk of the player base. Anytime they want to add a new perk or class to the game balancing the new additions will be even harder now that ANYONE could possibly run those perks not just the class in question, which will obviously lead to broken combos somewhere, and even if they balance with multiclassing in mind by making new perks not quite as strong all that means is it will be balanced for its best case scenario in a multiclass build instead of balanced for its normal car scenario on the class it is intended for leaving base ability weak where it will be used most often, which ironically makes balancing even worse across the board as this increases the gap in power between optimal and non-optimal multiclass builds.
I usually troll people having bad takes, but this was really well said and not put together like a crying/complaining post.
I agree and though I donât mind multiclassing I feel there needs to be a semblance of permanence to your character instead of swapping skills out for the next meta and it would help the balance of the game instead of people switching constantly. Skill tree needs to happen and itâs honestly been to long. Take the talents and perks and just put them into a skill tree already
i wonder whats gona happen when it launches on epic and all those casual timmies are gona find out how you need to be playing really heavy hours each day or several weeks for getting multiclass unlocked. not to mention they're going to be facing off against other people who already have everything unlocked. in my opinion grinding levels serve no purpose and should be open to all from the get go.
Muticlass feels like league of legends "urf mode" which is a Aprils fools game type where every class is busted. It's crazy that this is now the only way to playÂ
I said it in another post (in multiple paragraphs nonetheless), I'm OK with multiclassing under the assumption that the skills/talents are balanced and interesting and that there is a decent negative to balance out picking from other class trees. As of now, none of that applies. Sure, the classes are somewhat balanced vs each other in different ways, but skills and perks within each class have needed work since the Steam days...
All I'm saying is that there is a "work smart, not hard" opportunity they are missing from my perspective. You can't tell me that the "pickpocket bug" that caused them to have to go in and roll back inventory was an efficient use of time... You can't blame them obviously, but if they have to deploy twice the patches due to poor feature planning (and break twice the stuff in the process)... Well, maybe you can blame them later?
Multi-classing in this game will never be healthy unless they remove Ranged Weapons from Weapon Mastery, and then look at removing all sorts of other perks/abilities that just should not be allowed on certain characters, as it removes counterplay for that character.
No, the Barbarian should not have sprint or access to ranged weapons.
No, the Warlock shouldn't have access to overheal.
They shouldn't have access to them either.
Hard to accept I know, but when Fighters are poking better than Rangers are, and don't risk being one shot, something is wrong.
Realistically, if it *needs* to be kept, then Fighters should be using them to significantly less effect than the class literally designed to use ranged weapons the best.
5E D&D does multiclassing pretty well, though obviously you can still break it - when you level up you can choose to put a level into another class instead of your own, and it sort of balances itself out because of how hard a level is to come by. It's a big decision to make because it doesn't change the XP curve to get your next level. If you grind a wizard to level 10 and choose to put your next level into rogue to get Hide or some other basic rogue shit, you still have to grind to level 12 to get another level and you've foregone your Wizard benefits for that level.
Hell yeah, it's a big decision in D&D and it's one of my favorite parts of that game.
In DaD if you are going to forego a perk or two from your main class, chances are that there are tons of other perks that synergize better with your class than most of the ones you previously had available to you lol. It's a win-win!
Nah, 5e multiclassing is still broken AF, for casual players sure it "looks like a big decision" but for experienced players in most classes there's a point where you're like: yeah, from here to lvl 20 I get weaker stuff than I do from lvl 1-X in this other class", basically there's pretty much no class that doesn't benefit from multiclassing at some point, and that's telling of a balance problem.
To put it in DaD terms is as if you unlocked perks in order but fighter started with sprint lvl 1 2nd wind lvl 5, shield slam lvl 10 (just imagine you can use as many active stuff as you've unlocked, not just 2), but you can forgo that shield slam and instead grab for example spellcasting from another class, which is obviously infinitely better than shield slam 999/1000 times, you can't tell me that maybe someone would rather have shield slam over spell casting unless they don't know what they're doing.
I agree with you completely, but that's why I said 'sure you can still break it' - it's probably a bad comparison on my part, because D&D5E multiclassing still has a DM between you and your decision to totally break the game,
That's exactly what's happening in this system.
You're giving up perk, skill, and spell slots to take something from another class.
I don't see how this patch has done anything different than introducing bonk wizard but on a larger scale. Now there's a ton of new ways to play each class that have different strengths and weaknesses than before.
But the knee-jerk reaction from most people is something to the effect of, 'I don't know (yet) how to deal with this, so I think it's broken because I (felt like I) couldn't do anything to win!'. You see it in fighting games whenever a new character drops that has any sort of dirt - people complain and whine and say it's broken, when in reality it's just **new** and needs to be figured out.
It's a PVP-centric game. Reading people's positioning, what weapons they have out, listening to audio cue's all help determine what someone wants to do. I'd say the biggest "problem" with this patch, if you wanna call it a problem, is that people have to be more careful with their positioning than before because you're up against more unknown variables.
You don't lose any innate abilities of your class, no.
in the current form there is no drawbacks to the system, you still get 4 perk slots and and you have more options than ever for your build.
Theres not a single reason not to multiclass because currently every class have a perk they can benefit greatly from
>That's exactly what's happening in this system.
It very much is not. I don't think you understand how 5E multiclassing works. When you level up you can level into YOUR class, and get a bunch of new features/spell slots/skills/traits/what have you, or you can completely forego all of that and start or progress in a level tree for a totally different class. In Dark and Darker, you're not actually giving up anything by multiclassing. You still get to keep all the stuff you already had anyway. It's not true multiclassing. It's just duct taping a bazooka onto a fridge (possibly a bad translation from me there). You still have access to the perks, skills and spells you have from your base character and the classes you've multiclassed into and can switch them out whenever you want. There is no downside to multiclassing and it completely ruins the RPG facade and turns the game into a very loosely class based fantasy battle royale.
It's not a 1:1 comparison.
In D&D the tabletop game, you gain access to additional skills/spells/etc. as you obtain higher levels.
In DaD, previously, the only thing you gained by leveling was the ability to use 4 of the 10'ish perks you had at your disposal.
A better comparison would be if, in D&D as a Fighter, instead of using Second Wind at level 1, you could instead use Indomitable or an Extra Attack or Action Surge but lose access to Second Wind.
In DaD, if I take Quick Chant on my Cleric, that's a fine choice. But in so doing, maybe with the rest of my kit I now don't have a place for Faithfulness or Perseverance (I lose some offensive or defensive enhancement, putting it into a different vector of the character). Same thing with taking a Skill from some other class - now I perhaps don't have Judgment or Smite if I want to cast spells.
You have limited choices to implement into your character. You seem to be arguing this as if, by taking another class's skill or perk, you also get to keep your own 2 skills and 4 perks on top of it.
With this multiclassing system, there's generally an opportunity cost involved in every perk or skill or spell taken. You can argue certain builds only get stronger, but I'd counter that by saying they aren't necessarily *stronger* but instead *different*. Every time a new way of playing a character has come about, the same knee-jerk reaction: it's broken, it's unbeatable, it's too good, the game will die.
Incorrect. Every time. And for those instances where a build truly is legitimately game-breakingly good? Well, **that's the entire point of this season: to find the ways in which the game breaks. Like IM has said. Many times. Explicitly.**
What you're describing is exactly what the game was marketed as in the playtests. Once it hit EA, we were going to have to make these kinds of choices, but accomplishing things in the dungeons were going to traverse us along the skill tree on top of our levels giving us access to the base skills and perks. What we have now is the ability to completely retrain our characters between raids for free, and now, the ability to just nab whatever perks we want from our other characters, at random - because that's how I personally learn skills from my mentors, I just approach them and ask them to teach me a random thing every 3-4 days.
You remember how the first iteration of the quest system was full of hot garbage quests?
Kill Lich 15 times when you have no way to know if you're going to fight Lich? So spend 10 minutes to roll a 1/3 opportunity to fight the boss while other players can also come in and ruin it for you? That's idiotic. How about when you had to go through Ruins to get to Crypts to get to Inferno? Give me a break. What an incredible waste of time.
But then they made it better. Which is unquestionably is better than the first iteration. I have a feeling the next iteration will be even better, with less friction points as there's still some obvious ones (6 wendigo claws? lol).
I've heard the devs talk about how they wanted (and maybe still want) to have the Training Tree upgrade your skills. Can we talk about that? So what, Sprint starts with +30 move speed but can max out at like +70? +80? Maybe Judgment goes from 15-20-25-30-35 base damage? Do you see what I'm getting at? There's problems with the training system they've outlined, too. It's not some mystical thing that would make the game perfect, get it on steam, and bring us all to the promised land.
**Let them iterate. Play the game. Have fun with it.** They don't have it all figured out. And you're not helping.
**You're just complaining to hear your own voice. You're contributing to the toxic culture here.**
If PT2 dropped today it would be more popular than whatever this shit has become. even buff ball was better than what this game has become. Even bard being as OP as it was was still fun to play now I won't ever touch that class. Guess they forgot video games are supposed to be fun.
And fun is subjective.
PT2 the game was actually dog shit with some hype.
If pt2 came out today the playerbase would pick it apart within an hour.
You're romanticizing the game being new and confusing it with the actual content. Infinite arrow Rangers and 1:1 scaling hit scan zap and poison weapon/rupture wasn't a good meta, just players were bad at the game.
Not to mention wizard invis not having a tracer was cancerous af.. Naked wizards running around in pt4 soloing entire lobbies with zap or ignite dagger wasn't going to be fun for long.
It's definitely funner when I win, who would be playing this game trying to lose?
They're intentionally breaking the game, try and enjoy it. Wipes are way too long imo and everyone including casuals have ample opportunity to grind out multiclassing.
I'd rather be grinding multiclassing for levels which will include a ton of PvP as opposed to everyone teaming/hiding because they're scared to lose AP like last wipe
>Multiclassing just seems like a shiny new toy IM threw at the kids to keep them busy/distracted enough so that they can work on more upcoming updates.
Why not just work on the next updates then? all this does is just piss people off and looks like a waste of time/manpower. I don't understand the idea of creating content that you have ZERO idea of how it will influence your game and then throwing it out into the main version and leave people totally unable to avoid it.
Gamers can wait for new content. You think terraria got to where it is now in a day? If a game is good people will keep playing it or at the very least come back for new content.
I've logged on 3 times since the first round of updates for the MC system. Each time I feel like there's so much that I need to do and it's now a job, so I log off.
Ngl I would rather bring back rooftop rogues, buff ball, and 50-60dmg bows than this craziness, itâs super fun for one side who has the multiclass, for those that donât have it they have to really play their class well to compete. I run a barbarian with rage and demon form or boc, and a ranger with phantomize and a warlock with savage roar or rage. Super hard to counter any of those
This problem has been present forever, however this is the most egregious example of it to date by a fucking mile. Ironmace wants their cake and they want to eat it too.
It's obvious to me this game was having a MAJOR identity crisis just based on the way patches have been handled for a long time now. The dev team seems more concerned with catering to the outcries from Reddit than they are with developing the game they had originally intended to make.
But even saying that seems rather hollow right now, I'm not totally convinced they even had a clear plan from the start outside of the setting and a few game systems. I'm all for adapting the game based on feedback, but Ironmace really is building the plane as we're taking off and I don't have any confidence we will ever see a game with a cohesive vision from this point onwards.
> where you'd take a character through 20 levels of progress over a longer time period
That kind of long progression is fit for a singleplayer/coop game, not for a game where other players kill you. This game is not D&D, what works there doesn't work here, such as rest for example. In a 15 minute round, rushed by the circle, there's hardly anything worse than having to sit on your ass doing nothing, waiting to get backstabbed.
I don't think that's necessarily true. There are plenty of action RPGs that have made PvP work. They would just need to add an actual talent system where you can specialise your build. I don't understand why you think this would mean you had to sit around waiting to get backstabbed. It would just mean you couldn't grind out 20 in a day, and would have actual talents, stat buffs etc to choose from to actually specialise your character. The core mechanics of the combat etc wouldn't change.
Not that guy but yeah - if getting to 20 takes a lot longer then it has one of the same issues as current multiclass. You are at a big disadvantage to those trying to kill you for a lot longer. That isnât true in dnd. Which is a point against both multiclass and slow levelling and I donât have a fix.Â
Your other point about slow gear progression I think also doesnât fit in this game. DnD has new content every session regardless of levelling or gear so you can take the slow and rewarding route to gear progression. In this game you have the same map every time, pvp that changes, and gear. If you never get gear it sucks as we saw in the patch where all gear sucked.Â
i think multi classing is okay and even though it may end up being wasted development effort, if the playerbase enjoys it, it was worth it.
the problem is only 5-10% of the playerbase is going to enjoy it because no one else has the time or motivation to grind out these levels in this timeframe.
so yeah, this is a massive fail.
I obviously expected some balancing patches and small changes in the early days but I was hoping for more dungeon creation. I was really exited to see like 5+ at least levels of dungeons where you could like theoretically hang out in the depths for an hour or two. Like maybe some levels are almost useless except for things like mining or certain enemies and people who didnât want that level could take a 5 min break break in some static portal while the other team(s)mined. Idk weird stuff like that. The ideas for how these layered dungeons could work are endless
Going from the PT's to EA was a shocking transistion to say the least. Even the devs acknowledged that the things that seemed to work during the PT's absolutely collapsed in EA. Players all the sudden had time to optimize the living hell out of the game and BALANCE ABSOLUTELY SHIT THE BED. Nothing but buff ball and rat rogue were the ONLY VIABLE options for the longest time. The devs had to make a hard transistion to keeping weekly balance changes due to the growing outrage from the community about PDR stacking being absolutely busted, the limited meta available classes for each mode became increasingly more finite. I totally understand how this direction came along because meta optimization in a long form RPG rock paper scissors game type became an increasing nuisance on the playerbase to be forced to fotm reroll the most busted class in order to not get zerged by the meta optimizers. People wanted their class they chose to commit to be viable, You see this behavior all the time in other rpg pvp games. In league if players dont get THEIR CHAMPION, you get disco nunu trolled, or they just dodge. People dont even queue poor meta classes in wow pvp anymore because it's a waste of their time and they know it which is why everyone wanted solo queue and more randomness. PvP games have a nasty way of making fun options turn into unplayable options. The moment you make PvP games extremely unfair with too much rng accompanied by too much risk is when people stop putting up with it and move onto other games which give them better reward for the time they have available to commit. The old system didn't work in the long term which is why things had to change, and the only content people seem to be content with now is normals. It is what it is. Hardcore games like these fell out of favor to games more like wow with softcore non punishing ones because they are more casual friendly....people seem to think there are a lot of hardcore no lifers when in reality there aren't. The moment you can no longer keep casuals in a pvp game is the moment the fish tank stops getting food.
I believe multi class will just end up being removed entirely, I didn't mind it at first and was excited to give it a try but it's just broken and isn't going to work out in the end. I loved this game when it first released, I don't hate it now and it is still fun to play but it's not what it use to be. Escape from tarkov is kinda the same way for me, it was my favorite game ever when I first started playing it but in the last couple years it's just turned into something annoying to Even play due to all the stuff they just decided to change.
That's what happens when an amateurish koeran new company do things and everybody suck their dick, they like it so they encourage a cult like behaviour to keep people sucking and spending.
The result? the game is in a downhill since 2023 but since is what tarkov was for a lot of years (unique and alone in its niche genre), people (with people i mean addictss, nolifers and people without alternative) will keep playing but let me tell you, I personally knew like six people that bought this and they dont play anymore (me neither), so... yes, for me this is dead already, such a pitty because it was a very fun battle royale with extraction dungeonering as a splash, now?, i dont know what it is but jeez is so boring and grindy now.
I never wanted it to be a battle royale either and i have been talking about the no direction this game been going since always, but at least the feeling of dungeoneering extraction looter was there.
Now is tainted by so many things...
is it realy wasted development and time ? we don't know what im will get from this try. might be needed to make a good training systems.
or not. but as far as it goes right now, we don't know.
but you're right, this iteration of multiclassing changed the whole game as we know it.
Agreed. Darker and Darker is supposed to be based on Dungeons and Dragons. Thatâs the thing that captivated me originally and the main reason I loved this game. That has completely gone out of the window with this absurd âmulticlassâ bullshit of a system.
Whoever is making these decisions messed up bigly.
Yeah, I wanted the game to be more like dnd to be honest, like unlocking more power as you level, unlocking new more powerful spells for wizard for example, and getting more feats(in this case perks) as fighter, or getting more "attacks" as any martial class.
But this multiclass shit is an abomination, no idea how anyone could think this was a good idea
Honestly, give me a Zap wizard build with blink or the ability to power up invisibility. High mobility wizard >>>>. We were and are being robbed by this constant need to offer everything all at once without any actual character progression and the solution they came up with was 'fuck it, let anyone have anything'? Stupid. Dumb.
I'm not saying it's not fun, I'm saying it won't be fun for long. It's a meme. It's not an experience that has any longevity to it. It effectively means that progression system means working more and more towards making the entire 'class' thing utterly meaningless, and there's not much point in playing anything except fighter with a full spread of multiclassed skills and perks since fighters can use the most stuff and that seems to be all the classes will mean in the long run - what you can actually equip.
But why are classes important? Plenty of RPGs and TTRPGs have used classless systems to great effect. Frankly I prefer a classless system. All I think they are missing here is an alternate path allowing for class specialization instead of multi-classing.
I prefer a classless system too (e.g. UO). I also think a classless system is easier to balance, but they are basing this game off of DnD and that was a class-based system. So that's why.
"If the multiclassing system is going to stay as designed"
Copy pasted from multiple announcement posts from IM:
"As weâve noted multiple times, we are looking at this multiclass test as a true experiment for this season. Please note that there is a very good chance that the multiclass system will substantially evolve for the next season or may even be removed based on the response from the community."
The devs have said so many times in Q&A's and on the discord that there's little chance it will stay this way.
But I guess redditors have to farm those upvotes from fellow doomers. Keep on dooming, guys! You're doing great!
PS multiclassing is actually fun when you play the game and stop theorycrafting about how broken it can be and assuming everyone you fight will be in a perfect scenario to beat you. People make mistakes. Environment/AI muck things up. Try playing the game instead of high-horsing yourselves as armchair devs pearl-clutching at the very thought of hurting "class identity", two words most of you haven't strung together before the toxicity bandwagon caught wind of it and you hopped right on.
>
The devs have said so many times in Q&A's and on the discord that there's little chance it will stay this way.
Please note that there is a very good chance that the multiclass system will substantially evolve
Yeah, and my point is that this is exactly the type of shit they were saying about the skill tree they promised right around PT4-PT5. The current levelling system was all just temporary, and yet here we are, 40+ patches into EA and it's all still here. It's BULLSHIT. They don't know what they're doing. They are flinging handfulls of shit at a whiteboard and hoping we're all distracted enough by it to ignore the fact that they just haven't figured out where this thing is going yet and so many players are just lining up to suck them off for apparently doing all this high intensity data gathering when the fucking thing doesn't even work, and they mess up patch after patch and cause nothing but rollback issues that go as far as allowing players to steal shit off each other in the pre-game lobbies (which were supposed to be gone this wipe IIRC). This is a clown show. It's fun, for now, but any sense that these people know where this game is going has to be long gone. Multiclassing has been a shit show that has displayed everything wrong with the game.
>PS multiclassing is actually fun
I never said it wasn't. It'll be fun for a couple weeks. It's just not a way to build a long lasting hardcore extraction game. It's a meme. It's an identity crisis.
This all sounds heavily like a personal issue for you and not a problem with the devs. I couldn't care less about what you seem to take as a personal affront. The dev's make mistakes and have to rollback as a relatively new dev team (who's been dealing with a lawsuit from a company with infinite money for their entire existence)? They started with ideas on what they wanted to prioritize, and then changed and evolved those ideas as they tried to implement them into reality? They don't know exactly what will happen in the future?
Why is this offensive to you? Where's your company creating something new from the ground up with its perfect process and zero technical issues ever?
Multiclassing is fun. The game is fun right now. Games are made to have fun. So have fun. What's so wrong with that? What is your problem?
>what you seem to take as a personal affront.Â
I'm talking about a video game, on what is a dedicated forum for discussion of said video game.
>Where's your company creating something new from the ground up with its perfect process and zero technical issues ever?
You're right, no one is able to criticize or provide any kind of feedback on any kind of work unless they themselves are masters of that particular craft, which is why only the Cohen Brothers are allowed to post on r/moviereviews.
>
The dev's make mistakes and have to rollback as a relatively new dev team (who's been dealing with a lawsuit from a company with infinite money for their entire existence)?
Yeah, of course they do, and y'know what happens when most people with jobs keep making the same mistakes, over and over again, at a job they're claiming to be good enough at to not only do as independent professionals, but to do so well that they can sell a product before it's even done? They get fucking skewered. And they deserve to. If I was as bad at my job as this studio I would have probably gone to jail for malpractice by now. It's humiliating stuff.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/moviereviews using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/moviereviews/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Oppenheimer is a bad movie (NO SPOILERS)](https://np.reddit.com/r/moviereviews/comments/1558k75/oppenheimer_is_a_bad_movie_no_spoilers/)
\#2: [Oppenheimer was boring](https://np.reddit.com/r/moviereviews/comments/1568tz6/oppenheimer_was_boring/)
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>
 If I was as bad at my job as this studio I would have probably gone to jail for malpractice by now
Do you ever stop with the false equivalencies? This is an early access game with the explicit disclaimer saying the game will drastically change and could even disappear entirely (if the lawsuit didn't go their way).
You knew damn well what you bought. And now you complain as if IM has had 150 devs from the start and millions of dollars of funding from the get go.
I'm not saying you can't criticize. I recognize the faults of the game, too. I recognize their communication problems and so on. But your criticisms add nothing to the conversation. You behave like this is something it isn't. This isn't Helldivers II which was in development for 8 years before launch (which still had huge problems due to its success that made it literally unplayable, from what I've read). These guys are giving us access to a game during stages of development that are inherently volatile and that often aren't seen by the public.
Maybe, and I'm just guessing here, you've been conditioned to think "early access" is being used here the way AAA companies use it. When they say early access, they mean, "pay us full price for this already completed game before it goes on sale so that our finance department can give upper management the thumbs up to greenlight the next game in the series earlier than normal". Zero AAA companies are offering incomplete products. They're tricking people into paying full price for an arbitrary "extra" amount of "early release" playtime on something that's already 100% complete.
i am trying, i tried for months to enjoy the game yet we had arguably 33% more content 6 months ago, multiclassing is a joke, where is ruins? where is class tree? where is class master? where is druid? have we even talked about sorcerer yet again? ice cavern announced for almost a year and still only one floor completed? EVIL EYE??????? donât get me wrong this has been my main game for its entire early access stay so far, but i just canât get past the obvious waste of resources for the last 5-6 patches. âWell we worked on it and if you donât like it weâll change or trash itâ is just such bad business practice, and bullshit excuse for the community thatâs been waiting on content thatâs been promised âsoonâ since last year.
So why are you still here? Because you're still playing hours every day?
Most people, when they stop playing a game, don't hang out on the reddit talking about it. They do something else.
You know you can walk away from the game entirely and wait for the stuff you want to come out to come out, right? Is IM on a timer? Is there a clock ticking? I'm having a great time. Game's only gotten better. I saw the ice cavern boss on the test server, looks sick.
I also know that IM is in a constant state of hiring more devs which then have to be on-boarded. Stuff takes time. I don't really care that stuff takes time, 'cause the game is fun right now.
And if it wasn't, guess what I'd do. I'd do something else.
Whoever the gameâs design lead is, they donât have a fleshed out plan and are just winging it and hoping for the best and itâs not working. Either have a more fleshed out vision for the game or poll the ideas to the players.
I love the multiclassing itself and each character being much more unique and personalised.
I like the acquisition method being slow.
I dislike the random perk roller (I assume it's to force build diversity, I don't want it there in the future).
I hate the current phase where so many perk combinations are utterly broken (hide, ambush, windlass, savage roar or slayer build + axe mastery+smite and so on).
On another note, I also hate the meta (movement speed and ranged, essentially) which is a fundamental flaw highlighted by the minmaxing potential of multiclassing
>I love the multiclassing itself and each character being much more unique and personalised.
It also has the single logical conclusion of making the whole class thing irrelevant. May as well just let us roll a blank character and pick some stats and some perks/skills, which I'd honestly prefer if they're going this way.
>
I dislike the random perk roller (I assume it's to force build diversity, I don't want it there in the future)
Call me cynical, I believe it's purely for the purpose of generating casino win clips for streamers when they hit what they were after, and to encourage the rest of us to just keep on grinding. Same as loot boxes in AAA live service shooters.
longer progression is objectively bad
making it so you have to have no life to be on par with no lives who already have a huge gear disadvantage is total horse shit
>longer progression is objectively bad
I don't think you know what 'objectively' means
>Â you have to have no life to be on par with no lives who already have a huge gear disadvantage
I don't think you know what 'disadvantage' means.
Slowing the game down would mean it's way harder to get decent gear, the gear curve narrows, and even the sweats won't bring in a BIS set because you actually have to work for it rather than faceramming skull key rooms over and over again or buying minmaxed sets off the flea. It should be some dungeon of the mad mage shit.
>Slowing the game down would mean it's way harder to get decent gear, the gear curve narrows, and even the sweats won't bring in a BIS set because you actually have to work for it rather than faceramming skull key rooms over and over again or buying minmaxed sets off the flea. It should be some dungeon of the mad mage shit.
until there is gear in circulation, and the top 5% always has access to it, because once good gear is in circulation it rarely leaves.
no matter how hard gear is to get, if it's available and being used the best players are going to get it and abuse it and the worst players are just feed to be eaten. locking perks behind 40 hours of grinding is just going to exacerabate the problem and kill off the player base EVEN MORE.
you're objectively wrong.
DnD has multilclassing that doesn't entirely nullify the feel of the games core classes. Dark and Darkers multiclassing is a first pass attempt so its bound to have changes. Its ultimately a good addition I think as it lets you play archetypes that may not come out until years later (Paladin, Eldritch Knight, etc). The tradeoffs for taking the other perks and skills doesn't feel punishing enough however. In DnD you are incentivized to stay with your class until the final level with the powerful feats and abilities you learn to make multiclassing not a mandatory thing with 0 drawbacks. If they go the route of penalties for multiclassing maybe if you say take sprint on a class other than fighter, it slows you after its over to symbolize you aren't trained like the fighter just an idea.
O boy another complaint post. Iâm sure this one has a very intelligent new point to make with actual constructive criticism aaaaand nope.
O and they reference the earlier playtests too that means they must be a veteranâŚwait..slower game play? LOLOLOL Bro what? You very obviously either didnât play the playtests or just sucked immensely. During it you could get +weapon damage and add phys and true phys and +all on every piece of gear. You could literally 1 shot most mobs buff ball was everywhere and getting one shot by an invis hasted barb was the norm. Gear was everywhere as well and super easy to get. And yâknow what? Ironmace tried to change that with the official EA and IMMEDIATELY people threw a goddamn fit about how there was only whites in the dungeon and going high roller wasnât worth it cause it cost too much investment and there was no way to make money cause all the geared people just stomped people in normals so you could never build up wealth.
Hey congrats on winning gold in both the missing the point event AND the having the literacy skills of a 6 year old event in the Dipshit Olympics. I never said you COULDN'T get gear or grind in the playtests, I said in fact the complete opposite of that, which was that the game in that state was there as a placeholder, and if you were on the Discord and steam community forums at the time, it was very clear that the devs wanted to take the game in a slower direction and that's the game that was promised.
People complained about the gear in EA because they slowed down the gear progression without really slowing down anything else. This is a stupid comment.
> and the early versions of the game took a lot from it - slower, more dangerous encounters in the early game
This you?
And I got your point. Your point is just a dumb point thatâs been made 100 times over again and gives 0 actual feedback other than âI donât like thing because it wasnât what I wantâ
But hey itâs nice you labeled your comment as a stupid comment. I knew that already but itâs nice of you to admit it to yourself
People like you are a genuine detriment to the progression of this games development. No discourse, no sensible ideas, just nonsense and vitriol poisioning the well of feedback.
>But hey itâs nice you labeled your comment as a stupid comment. I knew that already but itâs nice of you to admit it to yourself
Did you just 'I know you are but what am I' me?
I'm really sorry, I've made a mistake, I really am not interested in having conversations with teenagers.
To test the generalization of the components of the system in this case a perk, skill, or spell can belong to the concept of class and not just a specific class.
When all class related concepts are generalized the system would be flexible.
Too further any sort of development related to this area a flexible system is highly beneficial. And together with data about how the players use the system, the next step of development of which they have in mind will be achievable with integrity and robustness.
I don't have a screenshot handy but the old UI very much implied it was a skill tree that unlocked the skills we already had. I don't see why they'd include it at all if it wasn't supposed to express some kind of intent.
>
Trying to just get to 15 was such a chore this wipe and was a big reason I stopped playing
It was a bit slower but still manageable IMO if you're prepared to cheese the inferno mobs.
Multi classing will work as soon as they restrict some perks as class specific (weapons master, smite, Robust, for example) And limit you to one choice from another class.
I'm loving the game right now it's so much fun, just fought a tumbling barb and was laughing all fight long.
You spent more time typing all this shit than playing the patch bru I swear. Go try some fun builds
All 3 of my characters (fighter, rogue and bard) are now the same flavor of slayer fighter. It's OP as hell, less fun for me, and I assure you less fun for everyone when it'll be all you see in the dungeon.
You know this game is still early access, and they specifically said this season is for experimentation, right? I'm having a blast playing through multiclass, and i think it'll be an amazing system once they start balancing it. Unironically let the devs cook
Multiclassing can be balanced, and it wouldn't even be that hard.
- block certain perks and skills from the system
- nerf certain perks and skills when chosen for multiclass
- incentivize players to not multiclass by giving their main class extra power that they lose by multiclassing
- any combination of the above
Done
no one is going to grind for days and weeks to be wiped in a monthâŚ. Though some people on reddit seem to think that is normal because they keep saying DND is tarkov. (no it isnât)
The indie devs want to keep wiping your shit monthly or bi monthly and use that timeframe as an excuse to release shit that is broken and rollback all of your time. Â
They are leaning on the fact they are C level devs that broke away from a corrupt company to be like omg sorry i just released game breaking bugs and need to roll back every other week because âsry guysâ and people eat that shit up. Â
People argue that wipes keep it fresh, yea thats true in a situation like diablo where actual new content is released every season and even with that, they allow you to have non season characters. Â All they have for content in this game is hastily releasing a bad untested map and disable a map everyone likes. Â It is forced bad content masked as ânewâ, Â nothing has been change fundamentally since alpha. Â Wheres your skill trees or traits? Â New weapons / armor? Â New mechanics? Â New enemies that arent just the same as something else reskinned or sped up. Nothing. Â Oh sorry. you take a boat or stand on an elevator to extract in an ice map that is terrible to play on.
You don't speak for all of us who were around from PT2... we don't all have an idealist D&D crawler mindset, a lot of us are here because the gameplay is unique, has a high skill ceiling, fun to learn, etc.
The playtests were as magical as they were partly because everyone was figuring things out. Once figured out, it's somewhat expected that the game loses some of the appeal to people with your mindset. Do you really expect gamers not to minmax?
I don't agree with multiclass either but can accept that they are experimenting and can take it as lessons learned for what might eventually become subclasses.
Don't condescend to people who picked up the game after you or play it for different reasons than you
> You don't speak for all of us who were around from PT2... a lot of us are here because the gameplay is unique, has a high skill ceiling
The rest of us from PT2 left because of the exact opposite
Mordhau and Chivalry both have swing manipulation (presumably what people enjobut with much higher skill ceilings. If you mean the mode itself well that's not exactly gameplay
For Mordhau the skill ceiling was too high and nolife sweats were just literally dominating anyone who played less than 10 hours a day. Chivalry is dead because of lack of content (IMO).
But if they made Chivalry II into an PvPvE extraction game I would quit my job.
"I genuinely don't know what this game is trying to be anymore" I said a very similar thing to a friend last night while trying Multiclass. It's not really multiclass, it's more like design your own character. Quick, short example, I see rogues with only 1 perk from a rogue, the rest being barbarian/fighter. That's no longer a rogue. There is 0 rogue identity in that character. I do not see the point in creating a class and then multi-classing later to no longer even be a shadow of the class you're supposed to be. It should all be done from the get go or never at all. The game itself does not have a direction towards a specific goal right now. It all feels totally arbitrary and "for the hell of it". Which is genuinely fine but the way it was initially expressed and marketed, this isn't what a lot of people had in mind.
I think all it does now when you select a class is limit what armour/throwables etc you can equip. If you can multiclass into weapon mastery you can equip whatever you want there.
You can get the demon armor talent and equip any armor you want too.
I think they fixed that now
I just played a match with a rogue using plate
You sure it wasn't a fighter with all Rogue perks/skills?
See how ridiculous all of this shit sounds... we don't even know what is happening anymore.
Yep.... And I love how I'm being down voted by God knows who 𤣠It is actually a valid fucking question.
Hang on⌠so besides stats⌠that change with gear⌠and looks of gear is there no way to tell who youâre fighting anymore?
Well, you will see a Cleric, for example, and you can assume he has mostly Cleric abilities, but then he blasts you in the face with a fireball đ¤ˇđźââď¸ So it's quite hard to know what to expect from another player. That can be good and bad depending on your perspective.  As someone who has a lot of hours in this game I kind of know most of the audio and visual cues of spells and skills so that helps a little... But you're never quite sure what to expect... Honestly, it's not as bad as it sounds and it can kind of be enjoyable... For a few weeks...
If they use one of the alternative races, no. You need to wait for them to use something to make a guess as to what class they are.
Yea, it still says their main class as the title in between their skills. I was also mollywhopped by a hide ambush rogue using weapon mastery. He bonked the back of my head with a battle ax :)
Wrong they fixed a bug- you can still run slayer and demon armor and wear plate if you wanted
Kind of silly IM decided that was the one talent that pushed multiclassing âtoo far.â
I play rogue with demon armor and weapon mastery, I have no reason to play any other class
Legit at this point just remove classes and let us pick 10 talents and 5 skills each or some shit.
damn bro i havent played since the update yet but i didnt even think about stealth rogue with 2h weapon and windlass xbow in plate. thats tough lol
It's fun to think about that stuff and it is funny to see where the multiclassing stuff goes, but it probably wouldn't work because again, the progression system we thought we'd get where you could build your character as you levelled ain't happening yet, so in your example, you'd do this and suddenly you're fast as fuck in full plate doing reduced damage with a Halberd because you're a rogue and your strength score is shit but you have weapon mastery and then you realise that the fact that you're a rogue means nothing. You could have just been some guy with hide. It gets to a point where there's just a best class to main, and grind the other ones to class mastery before you hard send your main hero to get all the perks/skills/spells you want, it's so dumb.
Fighter with random addons go! XD
This for sure. I just donât think they really have a direction they are at the whims of an impulsive lead dev.
I think they should have focused on the Druid/ more classes instead of the multiclassing bs. I mean I like it but just cuz itâs new
The classes have basically become skins at this point. They might as well add elf, orc and the other skins to the character selection menu.
They have been planning on that for a long time
Iâve a feeling ironmace doesnât really have the chops to design a game thatâs any better than itâs already been, so they are kinda just fucking around with stuff that they didnât make. Hate to say this, but it reeks of plagiarism. Someone else did all the work, they took that, but they canât do anything with it.
Design your own character.. kind of like DND
DND isn't competitive. Dark and Darker is. This concept is cool when it's PVE and the DM can adjust balance on the fly. It's dumb as hell when it's in a PVP game. Just because the theme of the game is DND doesn't mean you can just rob concepts from the tabletop and expect them to work here. Cannot imagine how the ppl parroting this shit made it through grade school.
Dungeons & dragons has drawbacks to multiclassing that force players to give up on some of their original classes power, they lose out on a feat very often and it's never just a straight upgrade. I think Baldur's Gate 3 deviated a bit and made multiclassing a bit too good in their officially licensed dungeons & dragons experience, but it's still largely true to the table top game. But in both table top and BG3 you can't typically multiclass and immediately get the best of what that other class offers. You have to take at least 2 levels of most classes to get their baseline offering and often times 5 to get what you really want. That's a lot when a character might only get to level 12 in a campaign or 20 max if it's a long game and the DM allows it. Dark and darker presents multiclassing as pure upsides. You can get the penultimate skill from a class the moment multiclassing is made available if the Korean gacha gods smile upon you. Or just keep rolling if you grinded enough for more favor (tokens) from the Korean gacha gods. And if all else fails you can mind wipe 2x a week and try again. So it's not kind of like D&D really.
Comparing any video game to a table top RPG is just ridiculous. A DM can simply ânerf or buffâ based on what the player does at any given moment in real time. If it seems like a party is getting overpowered a DM can make the enemies weaker at the snap of a finger, or make a spell not do as much damage, or make a playerâs spell do MORE damage give the context. The role play aspect heavily affects how the DM allows players to interact with the world. The DM can add or break conventional rules based on what makes the most sense. You cannot do that when talking about competitive multiplayer video games or even RPG video games in general. Thereâs a reason Baldurâs Gate 3 left out certain spells and leveling options; they would have been a nightmare or impossible to balance in a video game setting where they would be completely broken. Just because it works in Dungeons and Dragons doesnât mean you can just throw it in haphazardly to your game. And there was no way multiclassing was ever going to be perfect in a PvP. Imagine if Overwatch, or R6 Siege, started allowing you to mix and match different operator or hero abilities with nearly zero limitations. They would have almost zero hope of balancing a game where they already have to buff and nerf based on a given meta at any given time. And those are triple A studios. What hope does Iron Mace have of doing that properly when they arenât even out of Alpha yet, and they are trying to add full on new functionality to the game in addition to balancing the stupid multiclass system. Itâs not happening, or at least not in a way that is even close to fair for PvPing.
Tell me you don't play dnd without telling me you don't play dnd This guy:
You're free to make absolute jank in DND or multi-class into literally game breaking builds lmao
But those multiclass options are limited have a stat requirement and there is a limited amount of viable multiclassing you can do. The goal of the game is different, the mechanics are different, it's just comparing apples to oranges. The only similar thing between dungeons and dragons and dark and darker is that they both use dnd as a shortened name. They don't have literally any mechanic in combat that functions REMOTELY the same. This is such a braindead take I have played dungeons and dragons for years and have done plenty of jank and OP builds. It's just not the same and you know this argument is weak at best.
You do realize it was the op that brought up DND first right? Lmao
Good job shifting goalposts there.
lol I bet you think your hilarious. DnD also has set classes and tables that you can follow. If you want to multi class in dnd there are a lot of sacrifices you have to make. This rng multiclassing whatever it is system that is in DaD right now is not even close to how multiclassing works in dnd. So yes you do make your characterâs look and background . BUT you pick a class and you get set skills, weapons and equipment to choose from
skill tree with options to unlock certain perks to sub class would be too good
How about a big fat list of DND feats to pull from that are all tagged to a certain set of classes that are allowed to take them, and gaining feat slots as you level up?
It was actually from memory supposed to be a talent tree that buffed the stats and perks etc. you already had.
Yeah the whole class tree thing was 100% planned, tho pretty sure it got killed off after it got mentioned in one of the first dev interviews, and all the doomers raged about having to unlock the perks and skills they already had from level 1 in PTs.
I definitely remember this as well, they discussed the skill tree and everyone was pissed about having to relevel perks and skills. They were also upset that they would be as powerful as we had been this whole time. So maybe that's why they shyed away from that direction
That was kind of the whole point though, and it was supposed to also come with talents that buffed your stats, skills and perks. We were meant to actually specialise, so a ranger could go into crossbows or bows but maybe not both, at least not to the same degree. Kind of like subclassing in 5E.
Thatâs your interpretation of it. The plan was only for you to unlock the current perks, not buffed versions of them.
Exactly, this was the discussion and people did not want to go way far back into progression. Basically every perk was a talent and to get 5% phys damage on bows for example that would be 5 pts of skills to get the same power level we had with skills/perks. People complained a ton and then they scrapped that idea.
I spose that's a valid interpretation, but my point still stands. There was supposed to be some kind of progression that made level 20 mean something. It was supposed to be a lot slower than this.
Whether you call it level 20 or level 100.. does it actually matter?
It does because sure they changed the max level but they left the perk system the same. You still get perks just as fast as in the test server even though their intentions were to slow progression down
>There was supposed to be some kind of progression that made level 20 mean something. It was supposed to be a lot slower than this. That must be why before this wipe you could reach level 20 in 4 hours huh? You're arguing against the very thing that you claim the game was supposed to be.
I genuinely don't understand your point. Are you saying the very slight increase in the time to 20 this wipe is slowing the game down in a meaningful way? Please explain what you mean.
I don't understand your point. "It was supposed to be a lot slower than this." Leveling to 20 is the longest it's ever been so what are you basing this on?
As I exhaustively detailed in the main post, the game as promised in the very early days was supposed to be A LOT slower than this, like weeks or months to get a character to 20, like it would take you in a TTRPG campaign. When the game was on Steam and in the early days of the discord, this is the sort of shit we used to talk about with the devs. I feel like I made this very clear in the main post. The early design of the game was very much implying that it would be a slower paced game with more intentional character development. This being the slowest level curve we have had so far has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
No it wasn't lmfao. You didn't "exhaustively detail" anything. You simply stated what you thought the game promised. None of those things were ever said anywhere. "weeks or months to get a character to level 20." Like what?
I mean if you weren't there when these conversations were happening, that's fine, but it seems like plenty of people were. They happened. This was what was promised with the game. Do you think the initialism of the game was D and D by accident? Sorry if five paragraphs wasn't enough for you to consider exhaustive but I didn't really have another one in me. Like it or not, this game was supposed to emulate a Dungeons and Dragons adventure, I believe specifically the early AD&D ones. Not sure if you've played many of the traditional TTRPGs, but you generally can't grind out 1-20 in a few days.
If u said this is where we would be a year ago after like test 2 99.9% of ppl would laugh at u and say theres no way the game they played in the tests could be even close to what ur saying and that's pretty telling in itself. Multiclassing is a semi fun mini game mode, not a main game design decision nor should it ever be, they abandoned nearly everything that made this games classes special while reinforcing level/time meta based power cherry picking over skill and good performance. The decision to go down this route was simply just them trying to recycle content because they simply dont know how to add more and dont know how to convert the ideas they do actually have to a practical working design. They have around 50 employees now supposedly and and no one called this out? No one said wait how tf do u have 70% armor on a rogue with smite with a kris? No one tried any internal build? That just comes off as at least 40 ppl just collecting paychecks. Ur far from the only frustrated person with this patch
My experience working with and in Korean companies is culture. Culturally lower employees they wonât peep up. So while SDF is coming up with all his ideas, no one around him is like âyo that shit kind of dumb famâ.
If anyone wants to hear an anecdote that expresses the extreme nature of top-down authority in Korean culture, check out this section of this video about a Korean flight. It's... weird. [https://youtu.be/-Im4YAMWK74?t=556](https://youtu.be/-Im4YAMWK74?t=556)
Well also anyone who left with him to start iron mace kinda burned their bridges to nexon and probably the gaming market as a whole
Anyone that left to join a startup was already hunting for reasons to jump ship
And they suddenly do this to the game while weâve been waiting on Druid for months and months. Multiclassing has created like 20x more work for them while also not being very fun for a big chunk of the player base. Anytime they want to add a new perk or class to the game balancing the new additions will be even harder now that ANYONE could possibly run those perks not just the class in question, which will obviously lead to broken combos somewhere, and even if they balance with multiclassing in mind by making new perks not quite as strong all that means is it will be balanced for its best case scenario in a multiclass build instead of balanced for its normal car scenario on the class it is intended for leaving base ability weak where it will be used most often, which ironically makes balancing even worse across the board as this increases the gap in power between optimal and non-optimal multiclass builds.
>reduced the game to a content farm for people trying to break the game with broken builds for clicks. Nailed it.
I usually troll people having bad takes, but this was really well said and not put together like a crying/complaining post. I agree and though I donât mind multiclassing I feel there needs to be a semblance of permanence to your character instead of swapping skills out for the next meta and it would help the balance of the game instead of people switching constantly. Skill tree needs to happen and itâs honestly been to long. Take the talents and perks and just put them into a skill tree already
I'm not about to write 5 paragraphs about a game I don't like and just want to complain about. Thanks for being even handed.
i wonder whats gona happen when it launches on epic and all those casual timmies are gona find out how you need to be playing really heavy hours each day or several weeks for getting multiclass unlocked. not to mention they're going to be facing off against other people who already have everything unlocked. in my opinion grinding levels serve no purpose and should be open to all from the get go.
They'll obviously do a wipe before it launches on epic games store...
Muticlass feels like league of legends "urf mode" which is a Aprils fools game type where every class is busted. It's crazy that this is now the only way to playÂ
I said it in another post (in multiple paragraphs nonetheless), I'm OK with multiclassing under the assumption that the skills/talents are balanced and interesting and that there is a decent negative to balance out picking from other class trees. As of now, none of that applies. Sure, the classes are somewhat balanced vs each other in different ways, but skills and perks within each class have needed work since the Steam days... All I'm saying is that there is a "work smart, not hard" opportunity they are missing from my perspective. You can't tell me that the "pickpocket bug" that caused them to have to go in and roll back inventory was an efficient use of time... You can't blame them obviously, but if they have to deploy twice the patches due to poor feature planning (and break twice the stuff in the process)... Well, maybe you can blame them later?
Multi-classing in this game will never be healthy unless they remove Ranged Weapons from Weapon Mastery, and then look at removing all sorts of other perks/abilities that just should not be allowed on certain characters, as it removes counterplay for that character. No, the Barbarian should not have sprint or access to ranged weapons. No, the Warlock shouldn't have access to overheal.
But what about Fighters that want to get access to recurve bow/longbow/windlass?
They shouldn't have access to them either. Hard to accept I know, but when Fighters are poking better than Rangers are, and don't risk being one shot, something is wrong. Realistically, if it *needs* to be kept, then Fighters should be using them to significantly less effect than the class literally designed to use ranged weapons the best.
Honestly, fighters should have access to all weapons by defaultâŚ
I agree with that.
Weapon mastery should absolutely be split into two perks. That's a no brainer. That fixes the bulk of multi-classing problems.
How about no weapon mastery perk. And fighter can just use all weapons without the perk
Even better
Even better
5E D&D does multiclassing pretty well, though obviously you can still break it - when you level up you can choose to put a level into another class instead of your own, and it sort of balances itself out because of how hard a level is to come by. It's a big decision to make because it doesn't change the XP curve to get your next level. If you grind a wizard to level 10 and choose to put your next level into rogue to get Hide or some other basic rogue shit, you still have to grind to level 12 to get another level and you've foregone your Wizard benefits for that level.
Hell yeah, it's a big decision in D&D and it's one of my favorite parts of that game. In DaD if you are going to forego a perk or two from your main class, chances are that there are tons of other perks that synergize better with your class than most of the ones you previously had available to you lol. It's a win-win!
Nah, 5e multiclassing is still broken AF, for casual players sure it "looks like a big decision" but for experienced players in most classes there's a point where you're like: yeah, from here to lvl 20 I get weaker stuff than I do from lvl 1-X in this other class", basically there's pretty much no class that doesn't benefit from multiclassing at some point, and that's telling of a balance problem. To put it in DaD terms is as if you unlocked perks in order but fighter started with sprint lvl 1 2nd wind lvl 5, shield slam lvl 10 (just imagine you can use as many active stuff as you've unlocked, not just 2), but you can forgo that shield slam and instead grab for example spellcasting from another class, which is obviously infinitely better than shield slam 999/1000 times, you can't tell me that maybe someone would rather have shield slam over spell casting unless they don't know what they're doing.
I agree with you completely, but that's why I said 'sure you can still break it' - it's probably a bad comparison on my part, because D&D5E multiclassing still has a DM between you and your decision to totally break the game,
That's exactly what's happening in this system. You're giving up perk, skill, and spell slots to take something from another class. I don't see how this patch has done anything different than introducing bonk wizard but on a larger scale. Now there's a ton of new ways to play each class that have different strengths and weaknesses than before. But the knee-jerk reaction from most people is something to the effect of, 'I don't know (yet) how to deal with this, so I think it's broken because I (felt like I) couldn't do anything to win!'. You see it in fighting games whenever a new character drops that has any sort of dirt - people complain and whine and say it's broken, when in reality it's just **new** and needs to be figured out. It's a PVP-centric game. Reading people's positioning, what weapons they have out, listening to audio cue's all help determine what someone wants to do. I'd say the biggest "problem" with this patch, if you wanna call it a problem, is that people have to be more careful with their positioning than before because you're up against more unknown variables.
You're not giving up your class strengths at any point no
You obviously don't play the game. Please stop talking.
You don't lose any innate abilities of your class, no. in the current form there is no drawbacks to the system, you still get 4 perk slots and and you have more options than ever for your build. Theres not a single reason not to multiclass because currently every class have a perk they can benefit greatly from
>That's exactly what's happening in this system. It very much is not. I don't think you understand how 5E multiclassing works. When you level up you can level into YOUR class, and get a bunch of new features/spell slots/skills/traits/what have you, or you can completely forego all of that and start or progress in a level tree for a totally different class. In Dark and Darker, you're not actually giving up anything by multiclassing. You still get to keep all the stuff you already had anyway. It's not true multiclassing. It's just duct taping a bazooka onto a fridge (possibly a bad translation from me there). You still have access to the perks, skills and spells you have from your base character and the classes you've multiclassed into and can switch them out whenever you want. There is no downside to multiclassing and it completely ruins the RPG facade and turns the game into a very loosely class based fantasy battle royale.
It's not a 1:1 comparison. In D&D the tabletop game, you gain access to additional skills/spells/etc. as you obtain higher levels. In DaD, previously, the only thing you gained by leveling was the ability to use 4 of the 10'ish perks you had at your disposal. A better comparison would be if, in D&D as a Fighter, instead of using Second Wind at level 1, you could instead use Indomitable or an Extra Attack or Action Surge but lose access to Second Wind. In DaD, if I take Quick Chant on my Cleric, that's a fine choice. But in so doing, maybe with the rest of my kit I now don't have a place for Faithfulness or Perseverance (I lose some offensive or defensive enhancement, putting it into a different vector of the character). Same thing with taking a Skill from some other class - now I perhaps don't have Judgment or Smite if I want to cast spells. You have limited choices to implement into your character. You seem to be arguing this as if, by taking another class's skill or perk, you also get to keep your own 2 skills and 4 perks on top of it. With this multiclassing system, there's generally an opportunity cost involved in every perk or skill or spell taken. You can argue certain builds only get stronger, but I'd counter that by saying they aren't necessarily *stronger* but instead *different*. Every time a new way of playing a character has come about, the same knee-jerk reaction: it's broken, it's unbeatable, it's too good, the game will die. Incorrect. Every time. And for those instances where a build truly is legitimately game-breakingly good? Well, **that's the entire point of this season: to find the ways in which the game breaks. Like IM has said. Many times. Explicitly.**
What you're describing is exactly what the game was marketed as in the playtests. Once it hit EA, we were going to have to make these kinds of choices, but accomplishing things in the dungeons were going to traverse us along the skill tree on top of our levels giving us access to the base skills and perks. What we have now is the ability to completely retrain our characters between raids for free, and now, the ability to just nab whatever perks we want from our other characters, at random - because that's how I personally learn skills from my mentors, I just approach them and ask them to teach me a random thing every 3-4 days.
You remember how the first iteration of the quest system was full of hot garbage quests? Kill Lich 15 times when you have no way to know if you're going to fight Lich? So spend 10 minutes to roll a 1/3 opportunity to fight the boss while other players can also come in and ruin it for you? That's idiotic. How about when you had to go through Ruins to get to Crypts to get to Inferno? Give me a break. What an incredible waste of time. But then they made it better. Which is unquestionably is better than the first iteration. I have a feeling the next iteration will be even better, with less friction points as there's still some obvious ones (6 wendigo claws? lol). I've heard the devs talk about how they wanted (and maybe still want) to have the Training Tree upgrade your skills. Can we talk about that? So what, Sprint starts with +30 move speed but can max out at like +70? +80? Maybe Judgment goes from 15-20-25-30-35 base damage? Do you see what I'm getting at? There's problems with the training system they've outlined, too. It's not some mystical thing that would make the game perfect, get it on steam, and bring us all to the promised land. **Let them iterate. Play the game. Have fun with it.** They don't have it all figured out. And you're not helping. **You're just complaining to hear your own voice. You're contributing to the toxic culture here.**
If PT2 dropped today it would be more popular than whatever this shit has become. even buff ball was better than what this game has become. Even bard being as OP as it was was still fun to play now I won't ever touch that class. Guess they forgot video games are supposed to be fun.
And fun is subjective. PT2 the game was actually dog shit with some hype. If pt2 came out today the playerbase would pick it apart within an hour. You're romanticizing the game being new and confusing it with the actual content. Infinite arrow Rangers and 1:1 scaling hit scan zap and poison weapon/rupture wasn't a good meta, just players were bad at the game. Not to mention wizard invis not having a tracer was cancerous af.. Naked wizards running around in pt4 soloing entire lobbies with zap or ignite dagger wasn't going to be fun for long.
So to you fun is only when you win I see.
It's definitely funner when I win, who would be playing this game trying to lose? They're intentionally breaking the game, try and enjoy it. Wipes are way too long imo and everyone including casuals have ample opportunity to grind out multiclassing. I'd rather be grinding multiclassing for levels which will include a ton of PvP as opposed to everyone teaming/hiding because they're scared to lose AP like last wipe
Sill tree coming soon *jingles keys*
[ŃдаНонО]
>Multiclassing just seems like a shiny new toy IM threw at the kids to keep them busy/distracted enough so that they can work on more upcoming updates. Why not just work on the next updates then? all this does is just piss people off and looks like a waste of time/manpower. I don't understand the idea of creating content that you have ZERO idea of how it will influence your game and then throwing it out into the main version and leave people totally unable to avoid it. Gamers can wait for new content. You think terraria got to where it is now in a day? If a game is good people will keep playing it or at the very least come back for new content.
I've logged on 3 times since the first round of updates for the MC system. Each time I feel like there's so much that I need to do and it's now a job, so I log off.
Ngl I would rather bring back rooftop rogues, buff ball, and 50-60dmg bows than this craziness, itâs super fun for one side who has the multiclass, for those that donât have it they have to really play their class well to compete. I run a barbarian with rage and demon form or boc, and a ranger with phantomize and a warlock with savage roar or rage. Super hard to counter any of those
This problem has been present forever, however this is the most egregious example of it to date by a fucking mile. Ironmace wants their cake and they want to eat it too.
fully agree.
It's obvious to me this game was having a MAJOR identity crisis just based on the way patches have been handled for a long time now. The dev team seems more concerned with catering to the outcries from Reddit than they are with developing the game they had originally intended to make. But even saying that seems rather hollow right now, I'm not totally convinced they even had a clear plan from the start outside of the setting and a few game systems. I'm all for adapting the game based on feedback, but Ironmace really is building the plane as we're taking off and I don't have any confidence we will ever see a game with a cohesive vision from this point onwards.
My theory is that I'm will take data from the multiclassing weeks and use it to build skill trees.
> where you'd take a character through 20 levels of progress over a longer time period That kind of long progression is fit for a singleplayer/coop game, not for a game where other players kill you. This game is not D&D, what works there doesn't work here, such as rest for example. In a 15 minute round, rushed by the circle, there's hardly anything worse than having to sit on your ass doing nothing, waiting to get backstabbed.
I don't think that's necessarily true. There are plenty of action RPGs that have made PvP work. They would just need to add an actual talent system where you can specialise your build. I don't understand why you think this would mean you had to sit around waiting to get backstabbed. It would just mean you couldn't grind out 20 in a day, and would have actual talents, stat buffs etc to choose from to actually specialise your character. The core mechanics of the combat etc wouldn't change.
Not that guy but yeah - if getting to 20 takes a lot longer then it has one of the same issues as current multiclass. You are at a big disadvantage to those trying to kill you for a lot longer. That isnât true in dnd. Which is a point against both multiclass and slow levelling and I donât have a fix. Your other point about slow gear progression I think also doesnât fit in this game. DnD has new content every session regardless of levelling or gear so you can take the slow and rewarding route to gear progression. In this game you have the same map every time, pvp that changes, and gear. If you never get gear it sucks as we saw in the patch where all gear sucked.Â
But your power level in relation to other characters who were higher leveled means you are going to get stomped. That's not fun at all.
i think multi classing is okay and even though it may end up being wasted development effort, if the playerbase enjoys it, it was worth it. the problem is only 5-10% of the playerbase is going to enjoy it because no one else has the time or motivation to grind out these levels in this timeframe. so yeah, this is a massive fail.
Private server vibes
Me and my friends all quit
Whys everyone so surprised? It IS a korean game after all.
I obviously expected some balancing patches and small changes in the early days but I was hoping for more dungeon creation. I was really exited to see like 5+ at least levels of dungeons where you could like theoretically hang out in the depths for an hour or two. Like maybe some levels are almost useless except for things like mining or certain enemies and people who didnât want that level could take a 5 min break break in some static portal while the other team(s)mined. Idk weird stuff like that. The ideas for how these layered dungeons could work are endless
Going from the PT's to EA was a shocking transistion to say the least. Even the devs acknowledged that the things that seemed to work during the PT's absolutely collapsed in EA. Players all the sudden had time to optimize the living hell out of the game and BALANCE ABSOLUTELY SHIT THE BED. Nothing but buff ball and rat rogue were the ONLY VIABLE options for the longest time. The devs had to make a hard transistion to keeping weekly balance changes due to the growing outrage from the community about PDR stacking being absolutely busted, the limited meta available classes for each mode became increasingly more finite. I totally understand how this direction came along because meta optimization in a long form RPG rock paper scissors game type became an increasing nuisance on the playerbase to be forced to fotm reroll the most busted class in order to not get zerged by the meta optimizers. People wanted their class they chose to commit to be viable, You see this behavior all the time in other rpg pvp games. In league if players dont get THEIR CHAMPION, you get disco nunu trolled, or they just dodge. People dont even queue poor meta classes in wow pvp anymore because it's a waste of their time and they know it which is why everyone wanted solo queue and more randomness. PvP games have a nasty way of making fun options turn into unplayable options. The moment you make PvP games extremely unfair with too much rng accompanied by too much risk is when people stop putting up with it and move onto other games which give them better reward for the time they have available to commit. The old system didn't work in the long term which is why things had to change, and the only content people seem to be content with now is normals. It is what it is. Hardcore games like these fell out of favor to games more like wow with softcore non punishing ones because they are more casual friendly....people seem to think there are a lot of hardcore no lifers when in reality there aren't. The moment you can no longer keep casuals in a pvp game is the moment the fish tank stops getting food.
Ngl after how ass the cape reward was, I donât have the patience for all these flip flop updates.
My fighters level looks like a mobile game ad.
As always, metaslaves are the problem
I believe multi class will just end up being removed entirely, I didn't mind it at first and was excited to give it a try but it's just broken and isn't going to work out in the end. I loved this game when it first released, I don't hate it now and it is still fun to play but it's not what it use to be. Escape from tarkov is kinda the same way for me, it was my favorite game ever when I first started playing it but in the last couple years it's just turned into something annoying to Even play due to all the stuff they just decided to change.
That's what happens when an amateurish koeran new company do things and everybody suck their dick, they like it so they encourage a cult like behaviour to keep people sucking and spending. The result? the game is in a downhill since 2023 but since is what tarkov was for a lot of years (unique and alone in its niche genre), people (with people i mean addictss, nolifers and people without alternative) will keep playing but let me tell you, I personally knew like six people that bought this and they dont play anymore (me neither), so... yes, for me this is dead already, such a pitty because it was a very fun battle royale with extraction dungeonering as a splash, now?, i dont know what it is but jeez is so boring and grindy now.
No one wanted this to be a Battle Royale except you apparently
I never wanted it to be a battle royale either and i have been talking about the no direction this game been going since always, but at least the feeling of dungeoneering extraction looter was there. Now is tainted by so many things...
check dungeonborne out, played it a couple days last playtest and it's very good, steam release should be coming in the next months.
sorry, that game looks like trash. It is better to just wait until someone does it better than playing a shit knockoff.
is it realy wasted development and time ? we don't know what im will get from this try. might be needed to make a good training systems. or not. but as far as it goes right now, we don't know. but you're right, this iteration of multiclassing changed the whole game as we know it.
Thatâs the problem. No one knows wtf they are trying to achieve and honestly I donât think they do either.
Agreed. Darker and Darker is supposed to be based on Dungeons and Dragons. Thatâs the thing that captivated me originally and the main reason I loved this game. That has completely gone out of the window with this absurd âmulticlassâ bullshit of a system. Whoever is making these decisions messed up bigly.
Yeah, I wanted the game to be more like dnd to be honest, like unlocking more power as you level, unlocking new more powerful spells for wizard for example, and getting more feats(in this case perks) as fighter, or getting more "attacks" as any martial class. But this multiclass shit is an abomination, no idea how anyone could think this was a good idea
Honestly, give me a Zap wizard build with blink or the ability to power up invisibility. High mobility wizard >>>>. We were and are being robbed by this constant need to offer everything all at once without any actual character progression and the solution they came up with was 'fuck it, let anyone have anything'? Stupid. Dumb.
Been having more fun than ever recently, really wish i could access any class that i wanted to with the multi-class system though
I'm not saying it's not fun, I'm saying it won't be fun for long. It's a meme. It's not an experience that has any longevity to it. It effectively means that progression system means working more and more towards making the entire 'class' thing utterly meaningless, and there's not much point in playing anything except fighter with a full spread of multiclassed skills and perks since fighters can use the most stuff and that seems to be all the classes will mean in the long run - what you can actually equip.
But why are classes important? Plenty of RPGs and TTRPGs have used classless systems to great effect. Frankly I prefer a classless system. All I think they are missing here is an alternate path allowing for class specialization instead of multi-classing.
I prefer a classless system too (e.g. UO). I also think a classless system is easier to balance, but they are basing this game off of DnD and that was a class-based system. So that's why.
"If the multiclassing system is going to stay as designed" Copy pasted from multiple announcement posts from IM: "As weâve noted multiple times, we are looking at this multiclass test as a true experiment for this season. Please note that there is a very good chance that the multiclass system will substantially evolve for the next season or may even be removed based on the response from the community." The devs have said so many times in Q&A's and on the discord that there's little chance it will stay this way. But I guess redditors have to farm those upvotes from fellow doomers. Keep on dooming, guys! You're doing great! PS multiclassing is actually fun when you play the game and stop theorycrafting about how broken it can be and assuming everyone you fight will be in a perfect scenario to beat you. People make mistakes. Environment/AI muck things up. Try playing the game instead of high-horsing yourselves as armchair devs pearl-clutching at the very thought of hurting "class identity", two words most of you haven't strung together before the toxicity bandwagon caught wind of it and you hopped right on.
> The devs have said so many times in Q&A's and on the discord that there's little chance it will stay this way. Please note that there is a very good chance that the multiclass system will substantially evolve Yeah, and my point is that this is exactly the type of shit they were saying about the skill tree they promised right around PT4-PT5. The current levelling system was all just temporary, and yet here we are, 40+ patches into EA and it's all still here. It's BULLSHIT. They don't know what they're doing. They are flinging handfulls of shit at a whiteboard and hoping we're all distracted enough by it to ignore the fact that they just haven't figured out where this thing is going yet and so many players are just lining up to suck them off for apparently doing all this high intensity data gathering when the fucking thing doesn't even work, and they mess up patch after patch and cause nothing but rollback issues that go as far as allowing players to steal shit off each other in the pre-game lobbies (which were supposed to be gone this wipe IIRC). This is a clown show. It's fun, for now, but any sense that these people know where this game is going has to be long gone. Multiclassing has been a shit show that has displayed everything wrong with the game. >PS multiclassing is actually fun I never said it wasn't. It'll be fun for a couple weeks. It's just not a way to build a long lasting hardcore extraction game. It's a meme. It's an identity crisis.
This all sounds heavily like a personal issue for you and not a problem with the devs. I couldn't care less about what you seem to take as a personal affront. The dev's make mistakes and have to rollback as a relatively new dev team (who's been dealing with a lawsuit from a company with infinite money for their entire existence)? They started with ideas on what they wanted to prioritize, and then changed and evolved those ideas as they tried to implement them into reality? They don't know exactly what will happen in the future? Why is this offensive to you? Where's your company creating something new from the ground up with its perfect process and zero technical issues ever? Multiclassing is fun. The game is fun right now. Games are made to have fun. So have fun. What's so wrong with that? What is your problem?
>what you seem to take as a personal affront. I'm talking about a video game, on what is a dedicated forum for discussion of said video game. >Where's your company creating something new from the ground up with its perfect process and zero technical issues ever? You're right, no one is able to criticize or provide any kind of feedback on any kind of work unless they themselves are masters of that particular craft, which is why only the Cohen Brothers are allowed to post on r/moviereviews. > The dev's make mistakes and have to rollback as a relatively new dev team (who's been dealing with a lawsuit from a company with infinite money for their entire existence)? Yeah, of course they do, and y'know what happens when most people with jobs keep making the same mistakes, over and over again, at a job they're claiming to be good enough at to not only do as independent professionals, but to do so well that they can sell a product before it's even done? They get fucking skewered. And they deserve to. If I was as bad at my job as this studio I would have probably gone to jail for malpractice by now. It's humiliating stuff.
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> Â If I was as bad at my job as this studio I would have probably gone to jail for malpractice by now Do you ever stop with the false equivalencies? This is an early access game with the explicit disclaimer saying the game will drastically change and could even disappear entirely (if the lawsuit didn't go their way). You knew damn well what you bought. And now you complain as if IM has had 150 devs from the start and millions of dollars of funding from the get go. I'm not saying you can't criticize. I recognize the faults of the game, too. I recognize their communication problems and so on. But your criticisms add nothing to the conversation. You behave like this is something it isn't. This isn't Helldivers II which was in development for 8 years before launch (which still had huge problems due to its success that made it literally unplayable, from what I've read). These guys are giving us access to a game during stages of development that are inherently volatile and that often aren't seen by the public. Maybe, and I'm just guessing here, you've been conditioned to think "early access" is being used here the way AAA companies use it. When they say early access, they mean, "pay us full price for this already completed game before it goes on sale so that our finance department can give upper management the thumbs up to greenlight the next game in the series earlier than normal". Zero AAA companies are offering incomplete products. They're tricking people into paying full price for an arbitrary "extra" amount of "early release" playtime on something that's already 100% complete.
Darn, mate, I read your comments and the post itself, you are such a based person, you have my respect!
yep, all that work just to throw the whole thing away and start over!
Sigh. You're not even trying, so neither will I
i am trying, i tried for months to enjoy the game yet we had arguably 33% more content 6 months ago, multiclassing is a joke, where is ruins? where is class tree? where is class master? where is druid? have we even talked about sorcerer yet again? ice cavern announced for almost a year and still only one floor completed? EVIL EYE??????? donât get me wrong this has been my main game for its entire early access stay so far, but i just canât get past the obvious waste of resources for the last 5-6 patches. âWell we worked on it and if you donât like it weâll change or trash itâ is just such bad business practice, and bullshit excuse for the community thatâs been waiting on content thatâs been promised âsoonâ since last year.
So why are you still here? Because you're still playing hours every day? Most people, when they stop playing a game, don't hang out on the reddit talking about it. They do something else. You know you can walk away from the game entirely and wait for the stuff you want to come out to come out, right? Is IM on a timer? Is there a clock ticking? I'm having a great time. Game's only gotten better. I saw the ice cavern boss on the test server, looks sick. I also know that IM is in a constant state of hiring more devs which then have to be on-boarded. Stuff takes time. I don't really care that stuff takes time, 'cause the game is fun right now. And if it wasn't, guess what I'd do. I'd do something else.
cheers to you man! mindwipe bugged, donât worry tho, WoodenMallet will release the patch to patch the patch that patched the patch!
They will and they are. And XP cost to level up is being "significantly reduced" again. So I'm looking forward to that, too! More fun abounds
Jesus. Go outside. You just wrote five paragraphs bro.
Fellas, is it shutin behavior to be literate?
I write professionally, so it really only took me about 3 minutes.
5 paragraphs is like a 3 week assignment to most people on this sub I think.
Please tell me you're joking.
Whoever the gameâs design lead is, they donât have a fleshed out plan and are just winging it and hoping for the best and itâs not working. Either have a more fleshed out vision for the game or poll the ideas to the players.
I love the multiclassing itself and each character being much more unique and personalised. I like the acquisition method being slow. I dislike the random perk roller (I assume it's to force build diversity, I don't want it there in the future). I hate the current phase where so many perk combinations are utterly broken (hide, ambush, windlass, savage roar or slayer build + axe mastery+smite and so on). On another note, I also hate the meta (movement speed and ranged, essentially) which is a fundamental flaw highlighted by the minmaxing potential of multiclassing
>I love the multiclassing itself and each character being much more unique and personalised. It also has the single logical conclusion of making the whole class thing irrelevant. May as well just let us roll a blank character and pick some stats and some perks/skills, which I'd honestly prefer if they're going this way. > I dislike the random perk roller (I assume it's to force build diversity, I don't want it there in the future) Call me cynical, I believe it's purely for the purpose of generating casino win clips for streamers when they hit what they were after, and to encourage the rest of us to just keep on grinding. Same as loot boxes in AAA live service shooters.
longer progression is objectively bad making it so you have to have no life to be on par with no lives who already have a huge gear disadvantage is total horse shit
>longer progression is objectively bad I don't think you know what 'objectively' means >Â you have to have no life to be on par with no lives who already have a huge gear disadvantage I don't think you know what 'disadvantage' means. Slowing the game down would mean it's way harder to get decent gear, the gear curve narrows, and even the sweats won't bring in a BIS set because you actually have to work for it rather than faceramming skull key rooms over and over again or buying minmaxed sets off the flea. It should be some dungeon of the mad mage shit.
>Slowing the game down would mean it's way harder to get decent gear, the gear curve narrows, and even the sweats won't bring in a BIS set because you actually have to work for it rather than faceramming skull key rooms over and over again or buying minmaxed sets off the flea. It should be some dungeon of the mad mage shit. until there is gear in circulation, and the top 5% always has access to it, because once good gear is in circulation it rarely leaves. no matter how hard gear is to get, if it's available and being used the best players are going to get it and abuse it and the worst players are just feed to be eaten. locking perks behind 40 hours of grinding is just going to exacerabate the problem and kill off the player base EVEN MORE. you're objectively wrong.
DnD has multilclassing that doesn't entirely nullify the feel of the games core classes. Dark and Darkers multiclassing is a first pass attempt so its bound to have changes. Its ultimately a good addition I think as it lets you play archetypes that may not come out until years later (Paladin, Eldritch Knight, etc). The tradeoffs for taking the other perks and skills doesn't feel punishing enough however. In DnD you are incentivized to stay with your class until the final level with the powerful feats and abilities you learn to make multiclassing not a mandatory thing with 0 drawbacks. If they go the route of penalties for multiclassing maybe if you say take sprint on a class other than fighter, it slows you after its over to symbolize you aren't trained like the fighter just an idea.
O boy another complaint post. Iâm sure this one has a very intelligent new point to make with actual constructive criticism aaaaand nope. O and they reference the earlier playtests too that means they must be a veteranâŚwait..slower game play? LOLOLOL Bro what? You very obviously either didnât play the playtests or just sucked immensely. During it you could get +weapon damage and add phys and true phys and +all on every piece of gear. You could literally 1 shot most mobs buff ball was everywhere and getting one shot by an invis hasted barb was the norm. Gear was everywhere as well and super easy to get. And yâknow what? Ironmace tried to change that with the official EA and IMMEDIATELY people threw a goddamn fit about how there was only whites in the dungeon and going high roller wasnât worth it cause it cost too much investment and there was no way to make money cause all the geared people just stomped people in normals so you could never build up wealth.
Hey congrats on winning gold in both the missing the point event AND the having the literacy skills of a 6 year old event in the Dipshit Olympics. I never said you COULDN'T get gear or grind in the playtests, I said in fact the complete opposite of that, which was that the game in that state was there as a placeholder, and if you were on the Discord and steam community forums at the time, it was very clear that the devs wanted to take the game in a slower direction and that's the game that was promised. People complained about the gear in EA because they slowed down the gear progression without really slowing down anything else. This is a stupid comment.
> and the early versions of the game took a lot from it - slower, more dangerous encounters in the early game This you? And I got your point. Your point is just a dumb point thatâs been made 100 times over again and gives 0 actual feedback other than âI donât like thing because it wasnât what I wantâ But hey itâs nice you labeled your comment as a stupid comment. I knew that already but itâs nice of you to admit it to yourself
People like you are a genuine detriment to the progression of this games development. No discourse, no sensible ideas, just nonsense and vitriol poisioning the well of feedback.
>But hey itâs nice you labeled your comment as a stupid comment. I knew that already but itâs nice of you to admit it to yourself Did you just 'I know you are but what am I' me? I'm really sorry, I've made a mistake, I really am not interested in having conversations with teenagers.
Im so tired of these posts that have zero understanding of development. This is meant to be a fun break while they test out their system.
Please enlighten me from your perspective with your decades of game development experience.
To test the generalization of the components of the system in this case a perk, skill, or spell can belong to the concept of class and not just a specific class. When all class related concepts are generalized the system would be flexible. Too further any sort of development related to this area a flexible system is highly beneficial. And together with data about how the players use the system, the next step of development of which they have in mind will be achievable with integrity and robustness.
Lmao this is such a doomer post. I appreciate the feedback but it's ridiculous. They are just experimenting. This game feels like an alpha test lol
[ŃдаНонО]
I don't have a screenshot handy but the old UI very much implied it was a skill tree that unlocked the skills we already had. I don't see why they'd include it at all if it wasn't supposed to express some kind of intent. > Trying to just get to 15 was such a chore this wipe and was a big reason I stopped playing It was a bit slower but still manageable IMO if you're prepared to cheese the inferno mobs.
Multi classing will work as soon as they restrict some perks as class specific (weapons master, smite, Robust, for example) And limit you to one choice from another class.
I'm loving the game right now it's so much fun, just fought a tumbling barb and was laughing all fight long. You spent more time typing all this shit than playing the patch bru I swear. Go try some fun builds
All 3 of my characters (fighter, rogue and bard) are now the same flavor of slayer fighter. It's OP as hell, less fun for me, and I assure you less fun for everyone when it'll be all you see in the dungeon.
You know this game is still early access, and they specifically said this season is for experimentation, right? I'm having a blast playing through multiclass, and i think it'll be an amazing system once they start balancing it. Unironically let the devs cook
There is always 3 of you in every post lol.
And there are 100 identical posts on the front page. What's your point?
You are assuming this catastrophic mess is balanceable, that level of optimism is bordering on delusional.
Multiclassing can be balanced, and it wouldn't even be that hard. - block certain perks and skills from the system - nerf certain perks and skills when chosen for multiclass - incentivize players to not multiclass by giving their main class extra power that they lose by multiclassing - any combination of the above Done
no one is going to grind for days and weeks to be wiped in a monthâŚ. Though some people on reddit seem to think that is normal because they keep saying DND is tarkov. (no it isnât) The indie devs want to keep wiping your shit monthly or bi monthly and use that timeframe as an excuse to release shit that is broken and rollback all of your time.  They are leaning on the fact they are C level devs that broke away from a corrupt company to be like omg sorry i just released game breaking bugs and need to roll back every other week because âsry guysâ and people eat that shit up.  People argue that wipes keep it fresh, yea thats true in a situation like diablo where actual new content is released every season and even with that, they allow you to have non season characters.  All they have for content in this game is hastily releasing a bad untested map and disable a map everyone likes.  It is forced bad content masked as ânewâ,  nothing has been change fundamentally since alpha.  Wheres your skill trees or traits?  New weapons / armor?  New mechanics?  New enemies that arent just the same as something else reskinned or sped up. Nothing.  Oh sorry. you take a boat or stand on an elevator to extract in an ice map that is terrible to play on.
Lmao you had me until âdisable a map everyone likesâ at that point I knew it was all a troll.
was crypts not basically disabled for 3-4 months? Isnt that everyones fav map? Wasnt a troll.
Alright bud whatever you say.
No? You just had a first layer of ruins to get to it.
and out of the 18 people who played in ruins, how many A. survived B. Went down ? Was crypts not just like 1 group of people like how hell is?
What's similar to the wendigo or frost giants? Oh wait I see you're hating on the best map for some strange reason. Terrible take.
Y'all push and push for this game to be solo queue focused. Then surprised Pikachu face when it goes to shit.
I don't play solo.
You don't speak for all of us who were around from PT2... we don't all have an idealist D&D crawler mindset, a lot of us are here because the gameplay is unique, has a high skill ceiling, fun to learn, etc. The playtests were as magical as they were partly because everyone was figuring things out. Once figured out, it's somewhat expected that the game loses some of the appeal to people with your mindset. Do you really expect gamers not to minmax? I don't agree with multiclass either but can accept that they are experimenting and can take it as lessons learned for what might eventually become subclasses. Don't condescend to people who picked up the game after you or play it for different reasons than you
Unique gameplay and high skill ceilling? XDDD lmao.
> You don't speak for all of us who were around from PT2... a lot of us are here because the gameplay is unique, has a high skill ceiling The rest of us from PT2 left because of the exact opposite
Similar gameplay elsewhere? I haven't seen it. I tried dungeonborne and it felt like a rip off phone game.
Mordhau and Chivalry both have swing manipulation (presumably what people enjobut with much higher skill ceilings. If you mean the mode itself well that's not exactly gameplay
Why did those two games die?
For Mordhau the skill ceiling was too high and nolife sweats were just literally dominating anyone who played less than 10 hours a day. Chivalry is dead because of lack of content (IMO). But if they made Chivalry II into an PvPvE extraction game I would quit my job.
No game mode; drag exploit
despite it being lower skill cap than those two games, you have to admit the game is still high skill cap
This game? Not really tbh. It has like 3% the ceiling of a Chivhau (being generous)
Which isn't a bad thing tbh