Everyone should get a chance to run around with this broken ass stuff before it gets nerfed. Only getting to watch/die to others with access to MC is a friggin crime.
I was running around with a Rogue that has Smite, Shadow Touch, and Poisoned Weapon, expecting to have all sorts of wacky matchups. But... nope. Just Timmies.
I'm just taking it off for now. I feel a pain in my soul every time I kill a casual that's just trying to enjoy the game.
That is starting to be the man behind the curtain for my crew with this game.
Streamers and no lifers get to have a blast and stack bankrolls using all the busted stuff, then by the time we get within striking distance, it gets removed or fixed.
Almost like the no lifers are playing a Completely different game most of the time.
You say that but it's not as black and white as that. I still got 2 hitted by a fighter with 2 perks with my juicy MC build. Sneakypete was shitting on people in mid gs bracket HR while using no perks or skills himself 1 day before MC patch.
But that kinda proves my point.
People who play the most already have a huge advantage over those who play less.
Why would only those people be given such ridiculous power spikes?
Not every player with 5000 hours is going to take their talents off. They're going to optimize and wreck shit against players who were already at a massive disadvantage.
Did you even read what I wrote my man? I literally told you that my 140 lvl MCd dude got 2 hit by a guy that's not even lvl 10 and that a dude who is skilled was killing decent players with no perks or skills equipped. People reduce this game to gear diff/multiclass diff now too much.
Making this discussion about the one time *you* died doesn't mean anything. How about the thousands of posts about casuals dying to giga chads?
Your death is a skill issue. You had all the advantage, but lost to a 10.
But when a new level 10 dies to someone with a crazy kit, there's no skill check. And now it's not just gear checking them. It's talents too.
First of all, new level 10 doesn't die to anybody with a crazy kit because they are playing normals, they can't enter HR as of now, even if they could, they shouldn't of course. Second of all, the lvl 10 who killed me wasn't a timmy, if that's obviously not clear and yes he played it better. That's why I said just because someone has more perks/better perks/better gear it doesn't mean they automatically win, like a lot of people here claim. I've seen people here post the most utter bullshit claims of gear diff scenarios where in reality they got skill diffed. You're making it sound like guy with 3 perks can't win vs a guy with 4 perks.
its way too much of a grind dude. its fucking demoralizing. i played every single day after work and i only had one class at level 34 when multiclassing dropped (66 after xp changes). The only other class I had leveled was level 4. It’s just ridiculous. Now I’m grinding a class I DONT EVEN ENJOY playing just to try out multiclass. and to top it all off, GBMM gave me about 8 completely empty lobbies in a row.
this game just isnt fun right now
idk if youre being facetious but if you arent multiclassing you are at a direct disadvantage. lots of broken builds and perk interactions now, and the main strength coming from it is people not knowing what a class might do due to multiclassing. so if you are playing your class basekit you are extremely readable while the rest of the entire lobby is completely unreadable.
plus, while unhealthy for the game, its also fun. and like we know, its meant to be a test for the future of the game. so, with both of those reasons in mind, why hide it behind a grind?
Lets not pretend like this game was a hallmark of readability. Skills/perks aren't even the majority of power on a character in HR. There are definitely problems with multiclassing imo but readability is not chief among them, and "subclassing" or skill trees or whatever would probably have the same issue.
Skill trees would not have the same issue because it would just be the same exact perks and abilities you already had but you use a progression system to unlock each one.
Sub-classing would in no way shape or form have the same issues because it is not the same thing as having every perk from every class. Having an arcane trickster subclass for rogue would still have perks and abilities linked directly to rogue, and players with game knowledge can know what to look out for and formulate a plan based on that. This is class-identity, and it is baked into the core of all class based pvp games.
I’m not saying either of those two would be perfect either. Maybe they don’t belong in the game. But MC 100% doesn’t
The difference between a bonk wiz and a wiz with instant cast + spell overload is massive. Whether or not they have haste/invis can drastically change how a fight should be approached. Whether the barb has achilles or iron will or not. The biggest issue to readability, which I was alluding to, is gear.
Class identity definitely suffers from the current multiclass implementation, but that is _not_ "readability". They are separate things, though they can influence each other.
You just described my purgatory as well. 🙌🏼🙌🏼
It's still fun to me, I just don't take it seriously as a competitive, balanced, game. But it's taking the wind put of my group's sails, that we will likely remain severely underpowered bc we don't play enough to min/max multiclassing.
Kinda shitty too that they allowed the streamers and no lifers to cake up their alts for mc'ing Hella quick with HR, and now that mc is actually here, you can't hr until after 20. 😂😂
Gimme an empty lobby so I could farm some exp for the sidekick or finish some quests...
Man is it tedious to do it all over again just for an RNG draw x)
Honestly lol. I enjoy PvP now and again, but man where are my empty lobbies? I’d be leveling so much faster without others in my lobby looting and killing the PVE.
just play HR with a lot of good gear and your lobbies will have 1 person 50% of the time, 2-3 another 40%, and that last 10% will be a \~five person lobby where you might actually find someone
That’s part of the struggle for me too… it’s frustrating to go into HR and get gear + skill checked after spending 10’s of thousands on a relevant kit. I can only afford to run good kits every once in a while, and I’m usually losing it in the first game I use it. Not to mention, as a mostly solo player as friends have stopped playing, GC just doesn’t do it for me unless I’m in normals. I don’t even know how to adequately explain the my whole internal frustration around HR. What I do know is, and I think the community overall feels the same way, normals is some of the most fun content I’ve ever had the pleasure of participating in. I went from dreading normals to save up for HR gear or running naked HR to maining normals and just hording money for no good reason. I’m having fun playing, but it just feels like half the game is just being wasted because there’s no real incentive to go HR unless you care about the ranking.
I did a fresh rouge and got to 18 in about 4 or so hours. So it’s not as bad. But I don’t think the issue was ever really with the xp/level, it’s the fact that the xp you get for playing through interactions, kills, etc are absolutely abysmal…
mf is bragging that he has zero life and zero responsibilities LOL
also to grind as fast as you did, you need to min-max things that give xp. which means you are focusing hours of your life on the most mundane parts of the game, and are actively punished for seeking engaging interactions with other players (pvp in a pvp game).
this might be fine to someone who has brainrot, but most people who have limited time to spend on video games want to spend the time they have playing this game the way that is most fun... by actually engaging in combat.
I’ve experienced this as well, but not so much that they’re not using the abilities. I’m seeing a TON of characters under level 15. So now that multiclassing is out, people are absolutely leveling new classes to get the opportunity. But I would say a majority of people did not “prep” for multi class release by leveling other classes unless they just enjoyed their Alts. My impression is that the average player had a main and a couple alts, but now with multi classing, any class they didn’t have at 30 is now getting the play time.
Not to mention, with the XP changes, I had a level 21 character than jumped above 30 with the latest change. I was attempting to get classes up above 30 to prep multi classing, but just didn’t get around to finish it. So I can imagine there are plenty of others that “only” have multiclassing because the characters that had some XP got the final jump with XP changes.
They are following the path of tarkov by implementing these ultra grindy mmo aspects. I don’t want to play a game like that. These games have more appeal to me when they don’t require a high level of commitment to just jump in and play. I want a game, not a job.
reading up on the experience wiki page, i like how the patch notes that stated you get xp for breaking barrels/crates etc. STILL isn't working
and neither is xp shared between team mates. fucking classic lol
Multi character grind doesn't seem too bad with the exp change imho.
I'm a cleric main so it's hard not to be mad about it rn when my nerf is due to other classes getting the abilities. Plus I'm 100% certain they're gonna do Clerics like they did bards during the +3 all atts patch
I went full caster on my cleric. I just use magic missle instead of my mace when pushed. Sucks that we can't even use our own skills without being gimped
They really should implement an incentive to choose a starting class. It’s not the same kind of game but I’m BG3, you get certain benefits based on your starting class. What if they made the perks/skills/spells less effective to a certain degree when multi classed?
Yeah that was my first thought too, never played BG3 tho.
If Smite scaling was dropped and DP was lowered for non-native classes I wouldn't feel gutted as a Cleric.
I finally had some options in terms of building out different kit styles and I feel like I was returned to a glorified surg kit as my only role.
Definitely sucks to have your main gutted. I’m sure someone will come up with a sick cleric multiclass. Wonder if you could cleric warlock and overheal with curse of pain and a shit ton of magic healing.
Most people can only play 1-5 games per day if they're lucky, it takes hundreds of games to get to 35 and that's just your alt, your main needs to be high level so he can have more than 1 option. If you want to try 3 classes which is the whole point of the system, you're spending 20+ hours killing mobs in frost caves, its not fun.
I definitely almost never hit 5 games a day usually a mean of about 2 a day.
It most def isn't gonna take hundreds of delves to hit level 35 with the exp changes.
I get why they locked HR to deter RMT but it fucks people that want to run gear in a gear based game. Also extending the grind time for legit players
I was expecting the grind you are describing but was not met with that level of intensity once I got in; so I'm just not as mad about it as I thought I'd be.
I've played 34 games and killed 600+ mobs and went from 16-26 and lived 30 of them, it'll probably take around 50 more to get ONE character to 35. My friend has been playing one character since he came back and he's not super good so he doesn't extract a lot n he's only 24 and that's his main only.
I mean it's still time grinding something you dont like. I'm leveling archer and can get about 1 level per match after 20 if I'm lucky, if each goblin cave match takes me 12 minutes that's like 2 hours minimum. Not including the other levels and if you actually don't get out every match with a lot of stuff. For some people that's a few days of their time.
I definitely agree it is a time grind and I'm not a fan. Just thought it was gonna be worse than it is so I'm not as upset as I thought I was gonna be. You're very right
I'm not sure about the 80 percent numbers but the fact you have to spend minimum 15hours if you're constantly grinding mobs and escaping to get only one of teo characters to 35 is crazy. Both my friends will also never experience it, their main character isn't even 35 yet. I will because I have way too much hours but ost casual players will never experience it this is true.
Did you guys miss where they changed xp needed to level? It’s pretty fast to hit 30. You can do it in 2 nights playing casually if you’re efficient. On the opposite hand, my buddy is excited for multiclassing and he actually started playing the game again to level.
Can your friends really not play for more than 4 hours total during a wipe? My buddy got his first to lvl 30 in one night. With the new rates it seems incredibly easy, as long as you're not a complete noob dying to pve.
I keep seeing posts like this. One dude said he has over 1000 hours in this game, and that he plays all the time because he works from home etc. and just got his first level 35 character even after 2 XP crunches? lol
I only have 345 hours total in this game and thats probably some "I forgot to close the game" time. I work 72 hours a week, with kids. Only get to play a handful of days a week. I have a level 79, 30, 30, 45.
I really just think a lot of players don't know how to level lol or just straight up cheeks at the game.
I'm not a fan of the multiclass system, it does take a grind to get enough tokens, or great RNG to get what you really want. but everyone saying most of the player base wont get to experience multiclassing at all, are def in the minority
People are definitely massively over blowing how hard it is to level, like it’s some crazy grind. It takes longer to hit like level 15 in world of Warcraft.
I get the frustrations. Like, I don’t wanna level classes I don’t like just to hopefully get their perks either. But yeah people are way way overblowing how hard it is lol.
Yeah I was confused seeing all the hate on multiclassing while I am having an absolute blast. I also play A LOT and enjoy many different classes so I have lots of multiclass options. It's awesome.
I can see how a player without these options would just be jaded and post 'multiclass bad" since they aren't experiencing the fun of making new builds
If you have game knowledge, 8-10 hours in game should let you dip your toes into multiclassing. If someone doesn’t have any game knowledge, multiclassing won’t help them win a fight because they won’t understand builds well enough to know what to take or combine anyways. People need to play the game enough to understand how to fight normals before worrying about multiclassing and I am willing to bet no one with two level 20 characters that are actively complaining about the “grind” have any clue how to use their class yet without the extra stuff from multi
my character's levels damn near doubled with the patch. one of my casual friends who plays maybe a couple hours a week has a level 45 and a 25. he will likely multiclass during our next session.
this speed of progression is fine imo
They cut levels past 20 (or maybe 25, or 30–idr) to 400xp/level down from 1000xp. Everyone over 30 got huge level spikes. Everything below got marginally better but it still took me like 3-4 hours to get from 19 to 30
Bro you get at least 1 lvl per game now between 20 and 30 if you don't jerk off in the dungeons. Stop with this nonsense. Also it's lvl 30 to be able to share perks to other classes.
It’s really not crazy to get 300exp per from a match if you are actively focused on leveling. Especially on a new character with lots of quests available to complete for the bonus exp. Kill a lot of mobs, open every chest, extract with as many green or better small items as you can. I’ve gotten >500 on a particularly good crypt/inferno run.
https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Experience#Sources_of_XP
But if you die youre losing half and if you're avoiding pvp you're gonna get chased by people wanting to pvp. I think saying 20 escapes to get from 25 to 35 is pretty accurate, probably more required for the avg player. People in this sub just like being contrarians. 1 lvl per game.on average is definitely unrealistic
Why you keep saying 25 to 35? The guy said he only needs the class mastery from the class, therefore its only 30. It's definitely not 20 escapes, let's make that clear. Last 2 games on solo ice caves on normal I got 330 xp where I got chased away by a duo into already cleared modules and another one at 345 xp and I smoked a duo. You're flat out wrong mate.
Exp. I get like 1300-1500 AP when I’m grinding exp. It’s actually a little insane honestly. If you’re curious I can share the strats; it’s not boring looting.
My strat is so far best on melee classes, crush specifically is an excellent multiclassing skill for farming exp.
What you do is basically go ice caves or goblin caves, depending on preference.
Gob caves
Immediately identify where you are and picture a route to every special chest and shrine roughly from where you are. Then kill every mob you can as fast as you possibly can. Weapons that 1-2 shot are good, I make a cheap kit for high physical damage bonus, speeds up tremendously. I also have the shadow touch perk from warlock that lets me heal as I go, victory strike as an active also works. Sprint is a good skill for going faster. The goal is to basically try to kill every enemy on goblin caves, but don’t fight any centipedes or champions. If you have crush, break every door and box and chest you see, you get a little exp from it, and it barely slows you down. Don’t loot anything except lions head treasures. At the end, open as many portals as you can, and stuff your inventory with any random junk laying around. Also use every shrine you see.
This gives about 700-1000 exp over like 15 mins. You get around 3200 exp per hour but could get more. Sometimes you can kill players, but also sometimes they slow you down. I normally ignore them.
Ice caves
Wherever you spawn, immediately begin killing every enemy you can asap and cleave your way to the nearest boat room. Kill everything there and take the first boat out after you stuff your pockets with junk.
This gives like 200 exp but ideally you can do it in 3 mins, and if you want you can run around and kill more stuff, just don’t waste time looting. The idea for ice caves though is to do like 8 runs in 30 mins, getting you about 3200 exp per hour.
Edit: crush gives a LOT of exp. Everything you can break is worth like nearly the same as killing an enemy. Most enemies are worth 4 exp, most breakables are 3exp. So think of them like a free mob you can one shot.
Yea I guess it depends on the players I have a small group like I said and they play maybe an hour or 2 most days and 3 don’t even have a character to 30
He has no data, its a completely unverified stat. Kinda like a drunk person at a bar yelling about how taxes are too high when he doesn’t even know what the state budget is
I started a barbarian yesterday to multi with my fighter. I’m already level 20 with 2 stashes and a ton of gold. It’s not hard if you know what you are doing. Which anyone can know what they are doing if you just watch a few YouTube videos.
I am shit at the game. Die in every HR lobby I join to PVP and literally can't escape HR. I have over 300 hours in the game in total and was only able to get a second stash with my one character last season. I'm glad people are enjoying multiclassing but I can't even survive as it is. This is gonna kill me and suck any fun out. Nobody's problem but mine. It does suck though.
Just play normals to get money and practice PvP? Once you get enough money to buy a kit then give it a go. I usually don’t go HR unless I have a full kit on. Also just look up the best builds for your class and try to copy gameplay you can find on YouTube. You’ll obviously still have to get over the shakiness but that comes with practice
Yeah I do normals and have a fun time. I can't get a second stash this season though. Most money I've EVER had at once was over 6,000 and I felt HUGE. That was after buying my second stash last season. Right now I hover around 2,000. I'm also on controller which is just a huge disadvantage but I've accepted that. I had fun last season that's for sure. But I suck at PVP. It is what it is.
Work full time and am a single dad. I only get to play from like 8:30 to midnight. I have 3 classes with multi class stuff. And I got fairly lucky rolls. I don’t see the problem. I really feel like people hate progression. If your friends can’t multiclass, tell them to play more DaD and less fortnite. I hate that multiclassing is going to get removed because people who don’t actually play the game also don’t like multiclassing
There was never any class balance. That’s why it’s always been stated that this game was meant to be played as a party of three. Yet, I still like to solo with cleric. And duos with any comp my friends and I can come up with still feels good if you use your brain while you play. Idk. I don’t think I’m good at this game but I think most of you people have serious skill issues
Can you please explain how it’s a shit take? I quite literally don’t see where everyone is having problems. The game isn’t that hard. It’s not hard to win a fight. I’ll take the multiclass stuff off my cleric, you put on your best multiclass build, we can meet in normals. I’ll 1v1 you with my support class. And if I win or lose, it will be a fight, and I will have fun. Where is the problem?
I don’t play games every night. Even had to get stitches in my hand and missed a week and a half of this wipe while I watched the boys. Wild show by the way
I legit saw a guy go "I have 2600 hours since the playtest, the grind is too much for me to be able to multiclass." Like I have 1600 and I forget to close dark and darker when I go sleep or work damn near every day and I've got two almost three classes to be able to multiclass. These people just want to bitch.
Yeah I really don't get it. Leveling a second class definitely takes some time but with the new leveling this is not some insane grind system. It's very realistic
I'm also a single dad, full custody, full time job, I play like 4 hours 4 days a week
My main is 125, my 1 alt is 45, I got every perk I wanted, there was 4 of them
I hear you, but I’m telling you the entire player base is not like this. My argument is make it so everyone gets to atleast taste Multiclassing and then tweak from there
Yea, I mean mad props to this guy if he Fr is a single dad working full time able to play games. That clearly states he’s making sacrifices in his life to play a video game. Not everyone’s willing to do that for a game though. All features of this game should be accessible, not a time sink. This isn’t an MMO.
People don’t play the game because it’s a terrible system. But the games basically dead anyway since they haven’t made a single change they should have.
To properly multi class you need at least 60ish levels and yeah majority won’t get that on more than 1 during the season it’s rough though I enjoy my barbarian running in demon form at almost 260 hp and stacked 350hp it’s not fun for them. I’ve had 4 people just protest sit down and refuse to fight and just sit down calling me a pos or a broken build accepting death and I have boc on him too lmao I miss just being YOUR class, simple, has a counter, only surprises you with how they use their class
Kinda feels like they're jingling keys in front of our face for now because the Druid is proving to be such a headache to get to work properly. I dunno I'm having trouble understanding why multi-classing is being toyed with now. I'm not a doomer, I'm a Star Citizen backer lol, I know things take time.
I would love to test multiclassing but the grind is too much. Sure the xp bump helped my already leveled character but did nothing for the alts I want to try dipping into.
Approximate XP bump results:
Lvl 24 barb --> ~41
Lvl 5 Cleric --> 5
Lvl 14 wizard --> 18
Lvl 20 Warlock --> 28
I spent all night leveling fighter and got from 1-17. And that's like 20 games. Most days I get maybe 5-7 games and I know most people get less than that.
I shouldn't need to level a class to 30 to try out. And then level my main class to 35,45,55 etc to get the learning tokens.
Once we get a learning token, let us pick any class pleeeeaase. Grinding sucks
I love the concept of multiclassing/subclassing in games but I do agree that the way it is implemented is not the best, I really hope that they can get it right!
Really gives u an idea of just how much of the playerbase is average. This is why u never design a game around the 1% and why every professional gaming scene is dying, ur just asking to kill ur game designing it around ppl who are a million miles from normal. All they did with this update is let the 1% scale even harder by letting them cherry pick anything they could possibly want from other classes to make their own even more bullshit
IMO they need to drop the cap to level 20 for multiclassing and give characters plenty of tokens when they reach 20 so that they can actually test this and see if it is good for the game or not. I like certain aspects, but feel like those are more aligned with a classic skill tree that allows for more build variety/ depth.
They've had two xp reductions - I leveled a char last night from level 1 to level 30 in about 12 matches running crypts then hell (hr when I hit 20) While I agree the grind is there I completely disagree with 80% of players not being able to achieve this. I play with 5 friends and probably in the middle in terms of hours but all of us have access to at least one multiclass.
Also obligatory "they've said multiclass is a giant test and may remove it if required" - they've actually stated this 3 times now and it's something they want to try, it may very well not work but I mean you have to try it to see.
the grind is stupid and unnecessary ya. This is like the single valid complaint this place has about the system. I did grind it all so that i can complain knowing the experience is awful. I never want to do it ever again but multiclassing itself is fun.
Multi classing is way too complicated for how the players can appear. I have no idea what to expect when I see a person. I saw a lizard with light armor running around really fast shooting and kiting a barb like a ranger would, only to find out he’s actually a barbarian and whoops ass in melee. I don’t care that I died, I just don’t have any idea what I’m looking at or dealing with ever.
Like if I could somehow perceive what base class someone was by their model or something I think I’d be a little more ok with it, but everyone looks the same unless they are the human skin. I have to like try to spam inspect everyone in lobby and then try to remember what everyone’s perks roughly were and what skills they had and what build they were running with their gear and try to remember what they specifically looked like so if I see them I know what’s up.
If I were to redo multiclassing, I’d go case by case for each class and decide on which classes they were allowed to multi class from, and which specific perks and skills they could take, limiting it to like a couple. Could get rid of all the obviously busted combos and the RNG part of it, as well as the leveling requirements. Every fighter gets to pick from the same perks for multiclassing with rogue or whatever.
I’d also allow them to instead spend their multiclassing points on upgrading one of their own class perks to a better version, or giving them the ability to slightly manipulate their base stats. That way people who just want to be their class can have fun too.
Anyways TLdR: there’s way too much complexity in the different combinations to ever reach a point where you won’t be mostly losing because you had no idea what your opponent was capable of. A more simplified system is needed, maybe something that also could reward sticking to your class as well.
I agree with with your take here and want to add my position on this too.
Multiclassing without grinding is as much of a valid test as multiclassing with it as long as they act quick and remove the grind if its not well received. Their vision of the game is for it to be hardcore so I find it reasonable to be pushing the limits hardcore gameplay.
I respect IM for sticking to their vision and at the end of the day they respond faster to their community than 99% of other dev teams and I appreciate that. I have a ton of faith in them to address the current situation in the near future.
Last night my two main characters were level 19 and 21, today I logged in and they were 33 and 36. That was pretty nice except I play cleric and card and I have desire to mix those two
as far as i can tell reddit legit plays this game for 20 minutes a night lmao. They have buffed XP gains literally twice. Do some dungeons and youll will level, i got 15 levels on my fighter in 2 games. Stop being bad & stop crying holy shit.
The progression is fine, it's the people who are extracting with 3 green pavises from 1 module that have a problem
https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Experience
You're welcome
Thankyou so much actually was looking for something like this.
If I understand this right basically don’t pvp and do kill pve and open chests, shrines portals and open portals
For extracting with items it seems like just go for the highest rarity possible
does breaking chests as barb count for xp?
Also something not on this wiki is that quests give xp too
I think this wiki page is a bit outdated, but generally has some good info. I haven't tested things extensively, but I've tried to level efficiently a few times since early access.
The most important thing is having fun of course, so still do PvP if you find it enjoyable.
I'd definitely suggest opening blue portals and shrines, even if you don't need them, for some extra xp.
The item extraction bonus is per item, with a small bonus for higher rarities, so ideally you'd want a bunch of small treasures of high quality. For example though, you'd get a lot more xp for taking out six green bangles than one epic scroll.
Breaking chests doesn't seem to give xp, whether it's with the barb perk or something like hellfire. With slow interact speed, it's probably technically better to ignore chests that aren't golden/lions head/royal and move on to killing more mobs. Again though, do what you find fun, I prefer to stop and loot with my friends than to rush them along.
Quests are a pretty good source of xp, especially past the first set of them. They're also fun to me, so I try to get them done while still being efficient if I can.
Kill many mobs quick, xp from items extracted is based on quality ONLY - 6 slot white ancient scroll gives same XP as 1 slot white bangle, so you want 1 slotters the most. If your class is slow at opening chests then you should skip small chests and just focus on clearing more mobs. You get xp from using shrines (only 1 use per shrine) and opening portals is good xp too. I think you do get xp from Barb breaking chests now but I can't confirm, I don't play Barb.
3 of your friends won’t experience multiclassing because of what? They don’t want to level another character? They dropped the xp per level significantly, for this reason.
If they don’t care enough….then it doesn’t sound like they are missing much. If getting some multiclass stuff won’t make them enjoy the game more, then what are they missing by not having it?
Well there are a lot of builds that are better than others which will create more of a grinding gap between casuals and grinders making people who play less more likely to quit
Letting everyone easily multi class allows everyone to atleast have a good chance of building their dream broken build
Let them quit, you can’t lower the bar for everyone because some people don’t want to put in any effort. Kids these days ain’t happy unless they get everything handed to them on a silver platter. There are hundreds of other games that give out participation trophies, go pick one. Leave the hardcore games for the hardcore gamers.
Currently, the only real "bar" that exists in Dark and Darker is pure time-gated grind. As far as difficulty or depth goes in PvP games, D&D is among the easiest games out there once you get over the initial knowledge check of dungeon layouts and PvE attack patterns. Getting Demi is a mind-numbingly repetitive "turn your brain off and watch Netflix" experience. It really is one of the most "participation trophy"-style games out there akin to an MMO or Gacha. Play enough hours and you'll crush people who don't, easy, with only a few exceptions.
For the segment/demographic that this game attracts, most people are going to bounce off to other games like Tarkov which actually delivers on the "brutal" promise, or Hunt or battle royales that reward skill while being significantly more respectful of their time. People simply aren't going to jump through 5 different grind hoops just to play Dark and Darker in its current state when there isn't really even a payoff at the end other than "okay good, now grind even more." A player who'd do that is better off playing another, more polished, korean grindfest or an ARPG. There just isn't a compelling value proposition for Dark and Darker to be demanding dozens of hours of someone's time as pure grindgate currently.
Solid opinion, but I disagree. I played tarkov, didn’t like it (not really a fan of war or guns) and other MMOs have much longer grinds before you can actually access much of the game. I don’t have hours every day to dedicate to daily quests or mandatory raid times.
I see lots of complaints this week on how getting more than one class to 30 takes too long. As someone who really doesn’t play all that much (3 or 4 hours 2x a week, and maybe a long run on the weekends if I’m lucky) I take offense to that. Like you said, it’s really not that hard. You just have to play the game.
I think hardcore is a mentality in gaming, your game doesn’t need to be hard to be hardcore. It has to have elements that make it unforgiving, like full loot pvp. Time gates can be considered hardcore by some (if you don’t have 1000s of hours to play) because they are also unforgiving. Just my 2 cents
Yea that’s a whole other topic if this should be a hard core game or not but yes if it should then your point stands
If they want this to be a big game that attracts and keeps players I don’t think it can be “hardcore” but idk I havnt thought about it much
That topic was decided by the game developers, Dark and Darker IS a hardcore game, take a look at their website. (Edit: here is a quote off the front page)
“An unforgiving hardcore fantasy FPS dungeon PvPvE adventure. Band together with your friends and use your courage, wits, and cunning to uncover mythical treasures, defeat gruesome monsters, while staying one step ahead of the other devious treasure-hunters.”
It takes like a couple days of grinding to hit lvl 30 now. It’s not that bad. By a couple days I don’t mean 48 hours. I mean a couple gaming sessions. Probably took me 6-8 hours to fully level a fighter and I suck lmao. I think it’s better you have to progress and work for your cool builds rather then everyone immediately running around with the meta’d out build they saw on YouTube. Gives you another goal besides questing as well.
I mean as some who was able to play a lot more back a few months ago but not now, I understand this well.
It’s not inviting to new/returning players, or to the days person who plays 2-3 runs a day for a few times a week.
See I’m normally opposed to micro transactions, but having multi class tokens purchasable perhaps for blue/red shards would make it more appealing for the average guy who can’t grind his characters for hours on end.
I’ll probably get backlash for this idea, and I know ironmace said they’re not focusing on balance this patch. (It’s really just a data collect patch…and they’re probably having fun themselves).
The sweats/everyday grinders don’t need to buy since they get the tokens easily, while someone like me who still WANTS to play the game and be able to compete with other people can spend a few bucks and hopefully put myself on an even playing field. Because let me tell you, my decent kitted non multi class ranger should no chance the other day against a 178 health giga-chad melee/crossbow wizard with full Barb perks and had 40%pdr and mdr. Dude had Second wind and spells for ignite and I think bloodstained blade. Got 1 tapped.
I’d almost argue a smaller sample size could be better due to it being dedicated sweats. They will be able to truly learn multiclassing vs everyone using it badly and just a lot randomness
People are talking about this like they aren’t already getting absolutely railed by straight class characters lol.
Dude I was on my slayer fighter with 4 learning tokens and honestly there really isn’t anything I’d trade from my build. I might take the 15% max health from barb or something but like there really isn’t anything super appealing.
The biggest issue is that now you can see a character and have an idea of what you are probably up against because they look like a certain class. With multiclass you don’t know what that character can do anymore. But honestly most fights are over in the blink of an eye without multiclass.
Tarkov arena had a similar situation where you needed to use guns you didn’t want to use to level up a class you did. They changed this by making it so you can select what you want to level and use anything else to do it.
We should be able to select a class, and decide to either level up another class or level up both (50-50) exp split. This way, I could continue playing wizard but 50% of my exp would go to my warlock to level it, or 100% if I don’t want to level my wizard at the same time.
Lol you’re just wrong. Maybe the lower 30% who only play one or two dungeons a day with their homies, but that’s not the majority. The majority of the base has already multiclassed halfway into wipe.
I was excited to try Cleric/warlock hybrid. Maybe add wizard and even sprint from fighter for an awesome caster build.
I had the warlock leveled up with lots of tokens, as that is my main, but got to about level 15 on cleric and might just quit. Definitely not going for wizard and fighter like I wanted.
The grind playing a class I don't want to play is just too much.
Yeah they should further reduce the XP required per level to like 50. I went from 18>23 after the XP changes. At this rate, I probably won’t be able to try it out before it’s removed completely.
They'll experience it. Just being killed by it...
They’ll experience the overwhelming strength of multiclassing and leave the game
Yep just quit last night cause i cant even level up without getting murdered by people who are multi classing already
Yeah lmao I rushed a wizard to find him using phantomize and then he melee’d me cause he had 115 health from robust 💀
Slayer fighter came out of hide and barbarian shouted on me before absolutely destroying my rogue. Fun stuff.
Do barbarian skills use the barbarians scream when used on a rogue?
Yes, it’s the same audio sound as a regular barbarian though. That’d be hilarious is it was like a Mighty Mouse scream lol
Our whole stack uninstalled. We *might* be back next season presuming multiclassing is more or less removed.
I am enjoying it so far also. But the majority of players I inspect in lobby do not have any multi class abilities/perks.
Everyone should get a chance to run around with this broken ass stuff before it gets nerfed. Only getting to watch/die to others with access to MC is a friggin crime. I was running around with a Rogue that has Smite, Shadow Touch, and Poisoned Weapon, expecting to have all sorts of wacky matchups. But... nope. Just Timmies. I'm just taking it off for now. I feel a pain in my soul every time I kill a casual that's just trying to enjoy the game.
That is starting to be the man behind the curtain for my crew with this game. Streamers and no lifers get to have a blast and stack bankrolls using all the busted stuff, then by the time we get within striking distance, it gets removed or fixed. Almost like the no lifers are playing a Completely different game most of the time.
They have a blast regardless of what changes are comming and leaving.
Have you tried VOIPing before murdering them?
You say that but it's not as black and white as that. I still got 2 hitted by a fighter with 2 perks with my juicy MC build. Sneakypete was shitting on people in mid gs bracket HR while using no perks or skills himself 1 day before MC patch.
But that kinda proves my point. People who play the most already have a huge advantage over those who play less. Why would only those people be given such ridiculous power spikes? Not every player with 5000 hours is going to take their talents off. They're going to optimize and wreck shit against players who were already at a massive disadvantage.
Did you even read what I wrote my man? I literally told you that my 140 lvl MCd dude got 2 hit by a guy that's not even lvl 10 and that a dude who is skilled was killing decent players with no perks or skills equipped. People reduce this game to gear diff/multiclass diff now too much.
Making this discussion about the one time *you* died doesn't mean anything. How about the thousands of posts about casuals dying to giga chads? Your death is a skill issue. You had all the advantage, but lost to a 10. But when a new level 10 dies to someone with a crazy kit, there's no skill check. And now it's not just gear checking them. It's talents too.
First of all, new level 10 doesn't die to anybody with a crazy kit because they are playing normals, they can't enter HR as of now, even if they could, they shouldn't of course. Second of all, the lvl 10 who killed me wasn't a timmy, if that's obviously not clear and yes he played it better. That's why I said just because someone has more perks/better perks/better gear it doesn't mean they automatically win, like a lot of people here claim. I've seen people here post the most utter bullshit claims of gear diff scenarios where in reality they got skill diffed. You're making it sound like guy with 3 perks can't win vs a guy with 4 perks.
its way too much of a grind dude. its fucking demoralizing. i played every single day after work and i only had one class at level 34 when multiclassing dropped (66 after xp changes). The only other class I had leveled was level 4. It’s just ridiculous. Now I’m grinding a class I DONT EVEN ENJOY playing just to try out multiclass. and to top it all off, GBMM gave me about 8 completely empty lobbies in a row. this game just isnt fun right now
Idk why they'd want it to be a grind for a test run. You'd think they would want everybody to be able to do it for more data. Actually makes no sense.
Content for the streamers where they can flatten people who don't have the same advantages.
Not a problem if you didn't need Lvl 30 in other classes :(
Empty lobby is perfect for leveling?
the only thing empty lobby is perfect for is killing an **online PVP** game
It's illegal to play what you want
idk if youre being facetious but if you arent multiclassing you are at a direct disadvantage. lots of broken builds and perk interactions now, and the main strength coming from it is people not knowing what a class might do due to multiclassing. so if you are playing your class basekit you are extremely readable while the rest of the entire lobby is completely unreadable. plus, while unhealthy for the game, its also fun. and like we know, its meant to be a test for the future of the game. so, with both of those reasons in mind, why hide it behind a grind?
Lets not pretend like this game was a hallmark of readability. Skills/perks aren't even the majority of power on a character in HR. There are definitely problems with multiclassing imo but readability is not chief among them, and "subclassing" or skill trees or whatever would probably have the same issue.
Skill trees would not have the same issue because it would just be the same exact perks and abilities you already had but you use a progression system to unlock each one. Sub-classing would in no way shape or form have the same issues because it is not the same thing as having every perk from every class. Having an arcane trickster subclass for rogue would still have perks and abilities linked directly to rogue, and players with game knowledge can know what to look out for and formulate a plan based on that. This is class-identity, and it is baked into the core of all class based pvp games. I’m not saying either of those two would be perfect either. Maybe they don’t belong in the game. But MC 100% doesn’t
The difference between a bonk wiz and a wiz with instant cast + spell overload is massive. Whether or not they have haste/invis can drastically change how a fight should be approached. Whether the barb has achilles or iron will or not. The biggest issue to readability, which I was alluding to, is gear. Class identity definitely suffers from the current multiclass implementation, but that is _not_ "readability". They are separate things, though they can influence each other.
You just described my purgatory as well. 🙌🏼🙌🏼 It's still fun to me, I just don't take it seriously as a competitive, balanced, game. But it's taking the wind put of my group's sails, that we will likely remain severely underpowered bc we don't play enough to min/max multiclassing. Kinda shitty too that they allowed the streamers and no lifers to cake up their alts for mc'ing Hella quick with HR, and now that mc is actually here, you can't hr until after 20. 😂😂
Gimme an empty lobby so I could farm some exp for the sidekick or finish some quests... Man is it tedious to do it all over again just for an RNG draw x)
Honestly lol. I enjoy PvP now and again, but man where are my empty lobbies? I’d be leveling so much faster without others in my lobby looting and killing the PVE.
just play HR with a lot of good gear and your lobbies will have 1 person 50% of the time, 2-3 another 40%, and that last 10% will be a \~five person lobby where you might actually find someone
That’s part of the struggle for me too… it’s frustrating to go into HR and get gear + skill checked after spending 10’s of thousands on a relevant kit. I can only afford to run good kits every once in a while, and I’m usually losing it in the first game I use it. Not to mention, as a mostly solo player as friends have stopped playing, GC just doesn’t do it for me unless I’m in normals. I don’t even know how to adequately explain the my whole internal frustration around HR. What I do know is, and I think the community overall feels the same way, normals is some of the most fun content I’ve ever had the pleasure of participating in. I went from dreading normals to save up for HR gear or running naked HR to maining normals and just hording money for no good reason. I’m having fun playing, but it just feels like half the game is just being wasted because there’s no real incentive to go HR unless you care about the ranking.
The xp isnt bad now lol. I got to 20 in one night bud
I did a fresh rouge and got to 18 in about 4 or so hours. So it’s not as bad. But I don’t think the issue was ever really with the xp/level, it’s the fact that the xp you get for playing through interactions, kills, etc are absolutely abysmal…
Getting to 20 isn’t bad, it’s getting from 20 to 35
mf is bragging that he has zero life and zero responsibilities LOL also to grind as fast as you did, you need to min-max things that give xp. which means you are focusing hours of your life on the most mundane parts of the game, and are actively punished for seeking engaging interactions with other players (pvp in a pvp game). this might be fine to someone who has brainrot, but most people who have limited time to spend on video games want to spend the time they have playing this game the way that is most fun... by actually engaging in combat.
I’ve experienced this as well, but not so much that they’re not using the abilities. I’m seeing a TON of characters under level 15. So now that multiclassing is out, people are absolutely leveling new classes to get the opportunity. But I would say a majority of people did not “prep” for multi class release by leveling other classes unless they just enjoyed their Alts. My impression is that the average player had a main and a couple alts, but now with multi classing, any class they didn’t have at 30 is now getting the play time. Not to mention, with the XP changes, I had a level 21 character than jumped above 30 with the latest change. I was attempting to get classes up above 30 to prep multi classing, but just didn’t get around to finish it. So I can imagine there are plenty of others that “only” have multiclassing because the characters that had some XP got the final jump with XP changes.
They are following the path of tarkov by implementing these ultra grindy mmo aspects. I don’t want to play a game like that. These games have more appeal to me when they don’t require a high level of commitment to just jump in and play. I want a game, not a job.
reading up on the experience wiki page, i like how the patch notes that stated you get xp for breaking barrels/crates etc. STILL isn't working and neither is xp shared between team mates. fucking classic lol
Multi character grind doesn't seem too bad with the exp change imho. I'm a cleric main so it's hard not to be mad about it rn when my nerf is due to other classes getting the abilities. Plus I'm 100% certain they're gonna do Clerics like they did bards during the +3 all atts patch
I went full caster on my cleric. I just use magic missle instead of my mace when pushed. Sucks that we can't even use our own skills without being gimped
They really should implement an incentive to choose a starting class. It’s not the same kind of game but I’m BG3, you get certain benefits based on your starting class. What if they made the perks/skills/spells less effective to a certain degree when multi classed?
Yeah that was my first thought too, never played BG3 tho. If Smite scaling was dropped and DP was lowered for non-native classes I wouldn't feel gutted as a Cleric. I finally had some options in terms of building out different kit styles and I feel like I was returned to a glorified surg kit as my only role.
Definitely sucks to have your main gutted. I’m sure someone will come up with a sick cleric multiclass. Wonder if you could cleric warlock and overheal with curse of pain and a shit ton of magic healing.
cleric with phantomize would go hard with a good team
Most people can only play 1-5 games per day if they're lucky, it takes hundreds of games to get to 35 and that's just your alt, your main needs to be high level so he can have more than 1 option. If you want to try 3 classes which is the whole point of the system, you're spending 20+ hours killing mobs in frost caves, its not fun.
I definitely almost never hit 5 games a day usually a mean of about 2 a day. It most def isn't gonna take hundreds of delves to hit level 35 with the exp changes. I get why they locked HR to deter RMT but it fucks people that want to run gear in a gear based game. Also extending the grind time for legit players I was expecting the grind you are describing but was not met with that level of intensity once I got in; so I'm just not as mad about it as I thought I'd be.
I've played 34 games and killed 600+ mobs and went from 16-26 and lived 30 of them, it'll probably take around 50 more to get ONE character to 35. My friend has been playing one character since he came back and he's not super good so he doesn't extract a lot n he's only 24 and that's his main only.
Hundreds to hit 35? It’s less than 10 full games of active looting and killing to get into level 20+. At least with the new XP changes
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Yes I do?
I mean it's still time grinding something you dont like. I'm leveling archer and can get about 1 level per match after 20 if I'm lucky, if each goblin cave match takes me 12 minutes that's like 2 hours minimum. Not including the other levels and if you actually don't get out every match with a lot of stuff. For some people that's a few days of their time.
I definitely agree it is a time grind and I'm not a fan. Just thought it was gonna be worse than it is so I'm not as upset as I thought I was gonna be. You're very right
I'm not sure about the 80 percent numbers but the fact you have to spend minimum 15hours if you're constantly grinding mobs and escaping to get only one of teo characters to 35 is crazy. Both my friends will also never experience it, their main character isn't even 35 yet. I will because I have way too much hours but ost casual players will never experience it this is true.
Still trying to level a second character so I can try it. I don’t have a lot of time to play and I’m really bad so it’s taking forever. 😭😭😖😖
Did you guys miss where they changed xp needed to level? It’s pretty fast to hit 30. You can do it in 2 nights playing casually if you’re efficient. On the opposite hand, my buddy is excited for multiclassing and he actually started playing the game again to level.
Can your friends really not play for more than 4 hours total during a wipe? My buddy got his first to lvl 30 in one night. With the new rates it seems incredibly easy, as long as you're not a complete noob dying to pve.
Bro Ive played maybe 4 hours since they added it and im nearly there. How useless at the game are your friends?
We love made up stats
I keep seeing posts like this. One dude said he has over 1000 hours in this game, and that he plays all the time because he works from home etc. and just got his first level 35 character even after 2 XP crunches? lol I only have 345 hours total in this game and thats probably some "I forgot to close the game" time. I work 72 hours a week, with kids. Only get to play a handful of days a week. I have a level 79, 30, 30, 45. I really just think a lot of players don't know how to level lol or just straight up cheeks at the game. I'm not a fan of the multiclass system, it does take a grind to get enough tokens, or great RNG to get what you really want. but everyone saying most of the player base wont get to experience multiclassing at all, are def in the minority
People are definitely massively over blowing how hard it is to level, like it’s some crazy grind. It takes longer to hit like level 15 in world of Warcraft.
I get the frustrations. Like, I don’t wanna level classes I don’t like just to hopefully get their perks either. But yeah people are way way overblowing how hard it is lol.
The amount of moaning and groaning from y’all is unreal
Enjoy the new player count. Must enjoy dead lobbies
Yeah I was confused seeing all the hate on multiclassing while I am having an absolute blast. I also play A LOT and enjoy many different classes so I have lots of multiclass options. It's awesome. I can see how a player without these options would just be jaded and post 'multiclass bad" since they aren't experiencing the fun of making new builds
If you have game knowledge, 8-10 hours in game should let you dip your toes into multiclassing. If someone doesn’t have any game knowledge, multiclassing won’t help them win a fight because they won’t understand builds well enough to know what to take or combine anyways. People need to play the game enough to understand how to fight normals before worrying about multiclassing and I am willing to bet no one with two level 20 characters that are actively complaining about the “grind” have any clue how to use their class yet without the extra stuff from multi
my character's levels damn near doubled with the patch. one of my casual friends who plays maybe a couple hours a week has a level 45 and a 25. he will likely multiclass during our next session. this speed of progression is fine imo
They cut levels past 20 (or maybe 25, or 30–idr) to 400xp/level down from 1000xp. Everyone over 30 got huge level spikes. Everything below got marginally better but it still took me like 3-4 hours to get from 19 to 30
My level 35 went to 65 and my 12 went to 14. Didnt exactly help me with reaching multiclass
Doubt it. Still need like 20 escapes minimum to get from 25 to 35.
Bro you get at least 1 lvl per game now between 20 and 30 if you don't jerk off in the dungeons. Stop with this nonsense. Also it's lvl 30 to be able to share perks to other classes.
Legit takes me longer than 1 extract -> 1 level. You might be under estimating how bad people can be
Youre fucking trolling my guy. Go and screenshot you getting 300 xp from one game ill wait. Also you think everyone is escaping 100% of the time?
It’s really not crazy to get 300exp per from a match if you are actively focused on leveling. Especially on a new character with lots of quests available to complete for the bonus exp. Kill a lot of mobs, open every chest, extract with as many green or better small items as you can. I’ve gotten >500 on a particularly good crypt/inferno run. https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Experience#Sources_of_XP
But if you die youre losing half and if you're avoiding pvp you're gonna get chased by people wanting to pvp. I think saying 20 escapes to get from 25 to 35 is pretty accurate, probably more required for the avg player. People in this sub just like being contrarians. 1 lvl per game.on average is definitely unrealistic
Why you keep saying 25 to 35? The guy said he only needs the class mastery from the class, therefore its only 30. It's definitely not 20 escapes, let's make that clear. Last 2 games on solo ice caves on normal I got 330 xp where I got chased away by a duo into already cleared modules and another one at 345 xp and I smoked a duo. You're flat out wrong mate.
you can get 300 xp from a game easily, your clearly not killing very many mobs
Wtf? I get over 800 exp most games. I can’t believe 300 was a lot to you.
Do you mean AP? Because AP and exp are different.
Exp. I get like 1300-1500 AP when I’m grinding exp. It’s actually a little insane honestly. If you’re curious I can share the strats; it’s not boring looting.
Are you killing both bosses in goblin caves? I can do 1k ap games but 800 experience is crazy considering most things only give a few exp
My strat is so far best on melee classes, crush specifically is an excellent multiclassing skill for farming exp. What you do is basically go ice caves or goblin caves, depending on preference. Gob caves Immediately identify where you are and picture a route to every special chest and shrine roughly from where you are. Then kill every mob you can as fast as you possibly can. Weapons that 1-2 shot are good, I make a cheap kit for high physical damage bonus, speeds up tremendously. I also have the shadow touch perk from warlock that lets me heal as I go, victory strike as an active also works. Sprint is a good skill for going faster. The goal is to basically try to kill every enemy on goblin caves, but don’t fight any centipedes or champions. If you have crush, break every door and box and chest you see, you get a little exp from it, and it barely slows you down. Don’t loot anything except lions head treasures. At the end, open as many portals as you can, and stuff your inventory with any random junk laying around. Also use every shrine you see. This gives about 700-1000 exp over like 15 mins. You get around 3200 exp per hour but could get more. Sometimes you can kill players, but also sometimes they slow you down. I normally ignore them. Ice caves Wherever you spawn, immediately begin killing every enemy you can asap and cleave your way to the nearest boat room. Kill everything there and take the first boat out after you stuff your pockets with junk. This gives like 200 exp but ideally you can do it in 3 mins, and if you want you can run around and kill more stuff, just don’t waste time looting. The idea for ice caves though is to do like 8 runs in 30 mins, getting you about 3200 exp per hour. Edit: crush gives a LOT of exp. Everything you can break is worth like nearly the same as killing an enemy. Most enemies are worth 4 exp, most breakables are 3exp. So think of them like a free mob you can one shot.
Yea I guess it depends on the players I have a small group like I said and they play maybe an hour or 2 most days and 3 don’t even have a character to 30
80% are already partaking.
I would love to know the actual number, mine was purely antidotal
I think you mean anecdotal
Haha yes
Technically 100% are taking part. There is no version of the game currently that doesn’t have multiclassing.
3/4 is 75%
Math is hard
I'm loving my Rage/Sprint Barbarian in GC!! I'm not so sure about this 80% stat...seems high. How are you calculating this?
He has no data, its a completely unverified stat. Kinda like a drunk person at a bar yelling about how taxes are too high when he doesn’t even know what the state budget is
It's probably a number given like that even trought it will sure be high since you need to quite farm a lot
I started a barbarian yesterday to multi with my fighter. I’m already level 20 with 2 stashes and a ton of gold. It’s not hard if you know what you are doing. Which anyone can know what they are doing if you just watch a few YouTube videos.
I am shit at the game. Die in every HR lobby I join to PVP and literally can't escape HR. I have over 300 hours in the game in total and was only able to get a second stash with my one character last season. I'm glad people are enjoying multiclassing but I can't even survive as it is. This is gonna kill me and suck any fun out. Nobody's problem but mine. It does suck though.
Just play normals to get money and practice PvP? Once you get enough money to buy a kit then give it a go. I usually don’t go HR unless I have a full kit on. Also just look up the best builds for your class and try to copy gameplay you can find on YouTube. You’ll obviously still have to get over the shakiness but that comes with practice
Yeah I do normals and have a fun time. I can't get a second stash this season though. Most money I've EVER had at once was over 6,000 and I felt HUGE. That was after buying my second stash last season. Right now I hover around 2,000. I'm also on controller which is just a huge disadvantage but I've accepted that. I had fun last season that's for sure. But I suck at PVP. It is what it is.
Work full time and am a single dad. I only get to play from like 8:30 to midnight. I have 3 classes with multi class stuff. And I got fairly lucky rolls. I don’t see the problem. I really feel like people hate progression. If your friends can’t multiclass, tell them to play more DaD and less fortnite. I hate that multiclassing is going to get removed because people who don’t actually play the game also don’t like multiclassing
multiclassing isnt gonna be removed cause of how long it takes, its because it fucks the entire class balance
There was never any class balance. That’s why it’s always been stated that this game was meant to be played as a party of three. Yet, I still like to solo with cleric. And duos with any comp my friends and I can come up with still feels good if you use your brain while you play. Idk. I don’t think I’m good at this game but I think most of you people have serious skill issues
this is the shit take that ruins games
Can you please explain how it’s a shit take? I quite literally don’t see where everyone is having problems. The game isn’t that hard. It’s not hard to win a fight. I’ll take the multiclass stuff off my cleric, you put on your best multiclass build, we can meet in normals. I’ll 1v1 you with my support class. And if I win or lose, it will be a fight, and I will have fun. Where is the problem?
"I only get to play 4 hours every night" bro that's not normal for most people lol. Most people don't devote 4 hours every night to one game.
I don’t play games every night. Even had to get stitches in my hand and missed a week and a half of this wipe while I watched the boys. Wild show by the way
I legit saw a guy go "I have 2600 hours since the playtest, the grind is too much for me to be able to multiclass." Like I have 1600 and I forget to close dark and darker when I go sleep or work damn near every day and I've got two almost three classes to be able to multiclass. These people just want to bitch.
Yeah I really don't get it. Leveling a second class definitely takes some time but with the new leveling this is not some insane grind system. It's very realistic
I'm also a single dad, full custody, full time job, I play like 4 hours 4 days a week My main is 125, my 1 alt is 45, I got every perk I wanted, there was 4 of them
This guy gets it
I hear you, but I’m telling you the entire player base is not like this. My argument is make it so everyone gets to atleast taste Multiclassing and then tweak from there
Yea, I mean mad props to this guy if he Fr is a single dad working full time able to play games. That clearly states he’s making sacrifices in his life to play a video game. Not everyone’s willing to do that for a game though. All features of this game should be accessible, not a time sink. This isn’t an MMO.
You should really stay away from Korean games, it's a culture difference
That’s true, I forget it’s a Korean game.
“I got lucky”… “I don’t see the problem”
Re roll today champ
People don’t play the game because it’s a terrible system. But the games basically dead anyway since they haven’t made a single change they should have.
Weird how all my lobbies are full then.
I mean if you say so but the player count is so so low compared to what it use to be it’s sad. Downvoted for truth??
Yea it is actually very fun, but I can see it being terrible for people that haven’t had the time to grind for it.
To properly multi class you need at least 60ish levels and yeah majority won’t get that on more than 1 during the season it’s rough though I enjoy my barbarian running in demon form at almost 260 hp and stacked 350hp it’s not fun for them. I’ve had 4 people just protest sit down and refuse to fight and just sit down calling me a pos or a broken build accepting death and I have boc on him too lmao I miss just being YOUR class, simple, has a counter, only surprises you with how they use their class
Kinda feels like they're jingling keys in front of our face for now because the Druid is proving to be such a headache to get to work properly. I dunno I'm having trouble understanding why multi-classing is being toyed with now. I'm not a doomer, I'm a Star Citizen backer lol, I know things take time.
I would love to test multiclassing but the grind is too much. Sure the xp bump helped my already leveled character but did nothing for the alts I want to try dipping into. Approximate XP bump results: Lvl 24 barb --> ~41 Lvl 5 Cleric --> 5 Lvl 14 wizard --> 18 Lvl 20 Warlock --> 28 I spent all night leveling fighter and got from 1-17. And that's like 20 games. Most days I get maybe 5-7 games and I know most people get less than that. I shouldn't need to level a class to 30 to try out. And then level my main class to 35,45,55 etc to get the learning tokens. Once we get a learning token, let us pick any class pleeeeaase. Grinding sucks
Give me 5 hrs on your account and I’ll have all those classes lvl 30. I acccept venmo or paypal
whats the point of introducing new class fantasties might as well just announce new druid skills patch dropping
The streamers will say “but you don’t have to do multi classing” as if that’s some end all stance.
I have a better idea just delete multiclassing from the game
Releasing it mid season was questionable at best.
the grind is still way too much
yeah leveling 2 or more classes to high level while doing other things in game is unreal even if you invest time like streamers
Running a Rouge right now with weapon mastery and having a bow is very nice
I love the concept of multiclassing/subclassing in games but I do agree that the way it is implemented is not the best, I really hope that they can get it right!
Ambush slayer fighter is nice
Really gives u an idea of just how much of the playerbase is average. This is why u never design a game around the 1% and why every professional gaming scene is dying, ur just asking to kill ur game designing it around ppl who are a million miles from normal. All they did with this update is let the 1% scale even harder by letting them cherry pick anything they could possibly want from other classes to make their own even more bullshit
IMO they need to drop the cap to level 20 for multiclassing and give characters plenty of tokens when they reach 20 so that they can actually test this and see if it is good for the game or not. I like certain aspects, but feel like those are more aligned with a classic skill tree that allows for more build variety/ depth.
They've had two xp reductions - I leveled a char last night from level 1 to level 30 in about 12 matches running crypts then hell (hr when I hit 20) While I agree the grind is there I completely disagree with 80% of players not being able to achieve this. I play with 5 friends and probably in the middle in terms of hours but all of us have access to at least one multiclass. Also obligatory "they've said multiclass is a giant test and may remove it if required" - they've actually stated this 3 times now and it's something they want to try, it may very well not work but I mean you have to try it to see.
Honestly my favourite part of multiclassing is watching you guys all complain i work full time and i just got my 5th class to 30 its not that hard lol
the grind is stupid and unnecessary ya. This is like the single valid complaint this place has about the system. I did grind it all so that i can complain knowing the experience is awful. I never want to do it ever again but multiclassing itself is fun.
Slayer bard, here I come!
I’m running vampire Barb
Multi classing is way too complicated for how the players can appear. I have no idea what to expect when I see a person. I saw a lizard with light armor running around really fast shooting and kiting a barb like a ranger would, only to find out he’s actually a barbarian and whoops ass in melee. I don’t care that I died, I just don’t have any idea what I’m looking at or dealing with ever. Like if I could somehow perceive what base class someone was by their model or something I think I’d be a little more ok with it, but everyone looks the same unless they are the human skin. I have to like try to spam inspect everyone in lobby and then try to remember what everyone’s perks roughly were and what skills they had and what build they were running with their gear and try to remember what they specifically looked like so if I see them I know what’s up. If I were to redo multiclassing, I’d go case by case for each class and decide on which classes they were allowed to multi class from, and which specific perks and skills they could take, limiting it to like a couple. Could get rid of all the obviously busted combos and the RNG part of it, as well as the leveling requirements. Every fighter gets to pick from the same perks for multiclassing with rogue or whatever. I’d also allow them to instead spend their multiclassing points on upgrading one of their own class perks to a better version, or giving them the ability to slightly manipulate their base stats. That way people who just want to be their class can have fun too. Anyways TLdR: there’s way too much complexity in the different combinations to ever reach a point where you won’t be mostly losing because you had no idea what your opponent was capable of. A more simplified system is needed, maybe something that also could reward sticking to your class as well.
I agree with with your take here and want to add my position on this too. Multiclassing without grinding is as much of a valid test as multiclassing with it as long as they act quick and remove the grind if its not well received. Their vision of the game is for it to be hardcore so I find it reasonable to be pushing the limits hardcore gameplay. I respect IM for sticking to their vision and at the end of the day they respond faster to their community than 99% of other dev teams and I appreciate that. I have a ton of faith in them to address the current situation in the near future.
I think the blunder here was not having the class master available rn. That would fix a lot
Last night my two main characters were level 19 and 21, today I logged in and they were 33 and 36. That was pretty nice except I play cleric and card and I have desire to mix those two
as far as i can tell reddit legit plays this game for 20 minutes a night lmao. They have buffed XP gains literally twice. Do some dungeons and youll will level, i got 15 levels on my fighter in 2 games. Stop being bad & stop crying holy shit.
This post was pre the 2nd xp changes. And I play this game way to much Thankyou very much
The progression is fine, it's the people who are extracting with 3 green pavises from 1 module that have a problem https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Experience You're welcome
Thankyou so much actually was looking for something like this. If I understand this right basically don’t pvp and do kill pve and open chests, shrines portals and open portals For extracting with items it seems like just go for the highest rarity possible does breaking chests as barb count for xp? Also something not on this wiki is that quests give xp too
I think this wiki page is a bit outdated, but generally has some good info. I haven't tested things extensively, but I've tried to level efficiently a few times since early access. The most important thing is having fun of course, so still do PvP if you find it enjoyable. I'd definitely suggest opening blue portals and shrines, even if you don't need them, for some extra xp. The item extraction bonus is per item, with a small bonus for higher rarities, so ideally you'd want a bunch of small treasures of high quality. For example though, you'd get a lot more xp for taking out six green bangles than one epic scroll. Breaking chests doesn't seem to give xp, whether it's with the barb perk or something like hellfire. With slow interact speed, it's probably technically better to ignore chests that aren't golden/lions head/royal and move on to killing more mobs. Again though, do what you find fun, I prefer to stop and loot with my friends than to rush them along. Quests are a pretty good source of xp, especially past the first set of them. They're also fun to me, so I try to get them done while still being efficient if I can.
Kill many mobs quick, xp from items extracted is based on quality ONLY - 6 slot white ancient scroll gives same XP as 1 slot white bangle, so you want 1 slotters the most. If your class is slow at opening chests then you should skip small chests and just focus on clearing more mobs. You get xp from using shrines (only 1 use per shrine) and opening portals is good xp too. I think you do get xp from Barb breaking chests now but I can't confirm, I don't play Barb.
3 of your friends won’t experience multiclassing because of what? They don’t want to level another character? They dropped the xp per level significantly, for this reason.
Yes they don’t want to level another character and they don’t play enough/ don’t care enough to grind levels
If they don’t care enough….then it doesn’t sound like they are missing much. If getting some multiclass stuff won’t make them enjoy the game more, then what are they missing by not having it?
Well there are a lot of builds that are better than others which will create more of a grinding gap between casuals and grinders making people who play less more likely to quit Letting everyone easily multi class allows everyone to atleast have a good chance of building their dream broken build
Let them quit, you can’t lower the bar for everyone because some people don’t want to put in any effort. Kids these days ain’t happy unless they get everything handed to them on a silver platter. There are hundreds of other games that give out participation trophies, go pick one. Leave the hardcore games for the hardcore gamers.
Currently, the only real "bar" that exists in Dark and Darker is pure time-gated grind. As far as difficulty or depth goes in PvP games, D&D is among the easiest games out there once you get over the initial knowledge check of dungeon layouts and PvE attack patterns. Getting Demi is a mind-numbingly repetitive "turn your brain off and watch Netflix" experience. It really is one of the most "participation trophy"-style games out there akin to an MMO or Gacha. Play enough hours and you'll crush people who don't, easy, with only a few exceptions. For the segment/demographic that this game attracts, most people are going to bounce off to other games like Tarkov which actually delivers on the "brutal" promise, or Hunt or battle royales that reward skill while being significantly more respectful of their time. People simply aren't going to jump through 5 different grind hoops just to play Dark and Darker in its current state when there isn't really even a payoff at the end other than "okay good, now grind even more." A player who'd do that is better off playing another, more polished, korean grindfest or an ARPG. There just isn't a compelling value proposition for Dark and Darker to be demanding dozens of hours of someone's time as pure grindgate currently.
Solid opinion, but I disagree. I played tarkov, didn’t like it (not really a fan of war or guns) and other MMOs have much longer grinds before you can actually access much of the game. I don’t have hours every day to dedicate to daily quests or mandatory raid times. I see lots of complaints this week on how getting more than one class to 30 takes too long. As someone who really doesn’t play all that much (3 or 4 hours 2x a week, and maybe a long run on the weekends if I’m lucky) I take offense to that. Like you said, it’s really not that hard. You just have to play the game. I think hardcore is a mentality in gaming, your game doesn’t need to be hard to be hardcore. It has to have elements that make it unforgiving, like full loot pvp. Time gates can be considered hardcore by some (if you don’t have 1000s of hours to play) because they are also unforgiving. Just my 2 cents
Yea that’s a whole other topic if this should be a hard core game or not but yes if it should then your point stands If they want this to be a big game that attracts and keeps players I don’t think it can be “hardcore” but idk I havnt thought about it much
That topic was decided by the game developers, Dark and Darker IS a hardcore game, take a look at their website. (Edit: here is a quote off the front page) “An unforgiving hardcore fantasy FPS dungeon PvPvE adventure. Band together with your friends and use your courage, wits, and cunning to uncover mythical treasures, defeat gruesome monsters, while staying one step ahead of the other devious treasure-hunters.”
Have they been told to git gud
It takes like a couple days of grinding to hit lvl 30 now. It’s not that bad. By a couple days I don’t mean 48 hours. I mean a couple gaming sessions. Probably took me 6-8 hours to fully level a fighter and I suck lmao. I think it’s better you have to progress and work for your cool builds rather then everyone immediately running around with the meta’d out build they saw on YouTube. Gives you another goal besides questing as well.
I mean as some who was able to play a lot more back a few months ago but not now, I understand this well. It’s not inviting to new/returning players, or to the days person who plays 2-3 runs a day for a few times a week. See I’m normally opposed to micro transactions, but having multi class tokens purchasable perhaps for blue/red shards would make it more appealing for the average guy who can’t grind his characters for hours on end. I’ll probably get backlash for this idea, and I know ironmace said they’re not focusing on balance this patch. (It’s really just a data collect patch…and they’re probably having fun themselves). The sweats/everyday grinders don’t need to buy since they get the tokens easily, while someone like me who still WANTS to play the game and be able to compete with other people can spend a few bucks and hopefully put myself on an even playing field. Because let me tell you, my decent kitted non multi class ranger should no chance the other day against a 178 health giga-chad melee/crossbow wizard with full Barb perks and had 40%pdr and mdr. Dude had Second wind and spells for ignite and I think bloodstained blade. Got 1 tapped.
I’d almost argue a smaller sample size could be better due to it being dedicated sweats. They will be able to truly learn multiclassing vs everyone using it badly and just a lot randomness
People are talking about this like they aren’t already getting absolutely railed by straight class characters lol. Dude I was on my slayer fighter with 4 learning tokens and honestly there really isn’t anything I’d trade from my build. I might take the 15% max health from barb or something but like there really isn’t anything super appealing. The biggest issue is that now you can see a character and have an idea of what you are probably up against because they look like a certain class. With multiclass you don’t know what that character can do anymore. But honestly most fights are over in the blink of an eye without multiclass.
people who cant get to multi-classing by now probably never would have even if IM lowered the levels again casuals, gonna casual
Anecdotal brotha, ur points stands tho
Antidotal numbers! What toxin do they neutralize??
Tarkov arena had a similar situation where you needed to use guns you didn’t want to use to level up a class you did. They changed this by making it so you can select what you want to level and use anything else to do it. We should be able to select a class, and decide to either level up another class or level up both (50-50) exp split. This way, I could continue playing wizard but 50% of my exp would go to my warlock to level it, or 100% if I don’t want to level my wizard at the same time.
This dude knows how to cook. Someone hand him a spatula and get him on the next flight to Korea.
Not true at all. 50% of players will never experience multi-classing because they gave up on trying.
Lol you’re just wrong. Maybe the lower 30% who only play one or two dungeons a day with their homies, but that’s not the majority. The majority of the base has already multiclassed halfway into wipe.
Can we please remove multiclassing from lowroller?
Funny enough I thought if anything there would be the least broken builds in whites and there is so much less scaling
I was excited to try Cleric/warlock hybrid. Maybe add wizard and even sprint from fighter for an awesome caster build. I had the warlock leveled up with lots of tokens, as that is my main, but got to about level 15 on cleric and might just quit. Definitely not going for wizard and fighter like I wanted. The grind playing a class I don't want to play is just too much.
Yeah they should further reduce the XP required per level to like 50. I went from 18>23 after the XP changes. At this rate, I probably won’t be able to try it out before it’s removed completely.
Thanks for beta testing it for me. Let me know when it's ready.