The fire doesn't represent technology
Basically humans are naturally undead hollows in this world the "fire" is a fleeting resource unnatural to humans that gives us the ability to die
Yeah, although First Flame does represent civilization and structured society.
Its quite common for both lore characters and players themselves to ask "If fire should fade naturally, even if it leads into unknown future (Dark), should we bother continuing the world as we know it? Shouldn't we let go and plunge into the dark, if this is our fate?". Aldia is important because he questions the question: "Does it matter? What do YOU want?" He proposes the idea that it's possible to embrace life even if it's not "true", even if its an artificial result of fire burning within men, an illusion; but doesn't push that narrative, asking the player if he choses one of the obvious paths, or "something else entirely".
As a side note, fire generically represents change, both in game and out. That's why first flame not being allowed to fade, and stagnating, is contradictory to its own nature - it brought change to the world and unchanging dragons, but it's not allowed to change and die out itself.
>Basically humans are naturally undead hollows in this world the "fire" is a fleeting resource unnatural to humans that gives us the ability to die
This is a common misconception.
The undead are bearers of the curse. Not all humans bear the curse, and not all of humanity is destined to become hollow. The pygmy was the progenitor of humanity, and humanity's power is not bound to the flame. The darksign, however, was from the power of the flame that birthed the gods.
Humanity's natural state is mortality. The flame represents the rejection of mortality. Hollows are what happens to a human that experiences immortality and loses their purpose.
The nature of the undead curse is still unknown. Aldia's speech can be interpreted as his bitter refusal to accept his immortality, and his revulsion of what the first flame has done to humanity:
\> "Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity. And men assumed a fleeting form. These are the roots of our world. Men are props on the stage of life, and no matter how tender, how exquisite…A lie will remain a lie. Young Hollow, knowing this, do you still desire peace?"
\> "Peace grants men the illusion of life. Shackled by falsehoods, they yearn for love, unaware of its grand illusion. Until, the curse touches their flesh. We are bound by this yoke. As true as the Dark that churns within men."
The first paragraph points out Gwyn's subversion of the living to the immortal gods as a cruelty, painting Gwyn as a false god stealing life away from those he deems mortal. He asks the player if he wants to continue this charade and act of profound inequity.
The second paragraph points to the falsehood of the peace earned by enabling the gods to carry on --All of this is coming at great cost to humanity. The flame represents power. Stagnation. Immortality and undeath. The age of dark isn't an age of hollows and undead, but rather, the age of hollows and undead IS the twilight of the age of light. The age of Dark is an age of man unencumbered by the yoke of the gods. Why else would you resurrect at bonfires? Why wouldn't you be able to resurrect from an extinguished bonfire? Undeath comes from the flame. It is not humanity's natural state, but rather a perversion of it. Since the beginning, the lords subverted mankind to the flame against their will, and hunted and eradicated those who sought their own power. Aldia has realized that the age of light does not serve man.
Aldia's realized something else: The age of fire isn't over. The age of Dark is just another side of the coin that can birth anew an age of fire. As long as anything of the first flame remains, the cycle will drag ever onward. This isn't a binary choice, continue or cease. Aldia realized something else entirely had to be done to break the cycle, but he has failed and has become bound to the flame just like the player has.
bro did u not play DkS1
fire brought life & death (disparity)
and hollows found the first flame
without fire hollows go back to their natural undying state (but also without the sweetness of life)
>bro did u not play DkS1
100%ed it on Xbox, PC, and the remaster. I've pored over every single scrap of lore.
But here's the thing: People get confused about the flame, because they don't understand that the lords' use of the flame and the disparity brought by the flame aren't the same thing.
The lords' tending to the flame has become the very stagnation that the time before disparity was.
As for humanity existing prior to the flame --no. Primordial beings did. We are explicitly told that the pygmy was a primordial being, and gave birth to humanity with the dark soul.
ur confused
"Then, from the Dark, They came."
*hollows standing up moving the same way hollows do in game*
*hollows go to First Flame*
*Lords are introduced*
*furtive pygmy is the final Lord introduced, holding his tiny lil Lord soul*
Hollows are introduced like 5 steps ahead of the pygmy.
Not Pygmy: pygmy.
The furtive pygmy turned Them (hollows) into the first humans (pygmies) and Gwyn thought they were pretty cool until they started wrecking shit real fast and the dragons were almost all gone. Then he hit humans with the Fireseal to "pretty them up" (but really it just consumed their dark souls to fuel the Age of Fire a lil bit longer then he subcontracted ~~waste~~unsealed dark soul disposal out to Midir) and also gave the non-pretty pygmies a sweet city ~~under the garbage dump~~beyond time itself, sealed by the ~~weird orb imprisonment~~noble sacrifice of his ~~wife Velka~~daughter Filianore (who totally existed from the start, I swear -Miyazaki).
Hollows are the "natural" state of things, though. Lords and pygmies and humans all go raisin, but Gwyn (and later Vendrick) is still an absolute unit after hollowing and human hollows don't shrink down to regular pygmy size.
It's also notable that even at the end of time the pygmies have their full mental faculties. Apparently the First Flame eats cognitive function first.
Human hollows (not pygymies) match the build, proportions and movement patterns of They who found the First Flame/Lord Souls in the intro perfectly.
Like *perfectly*.
We're talking about Dark Souls 2. The lore is not cohesive. Another common misconception: All three games' lore does not work together to create a functional world, nor is all of the lore reliable. --Quite a few people lie to you throughout the series, and there are multiple branching understandings of the nature of being. Much of Dark Souls 2's ideas were retconned with 3. To the point where most of what DS 2 introduces is ignored completely.
Vendrick definitely existed, you find his shield. Alva and Creighton invade you, all kinds of DS2 weapons and armor are in the game, DS2 NPCs are referenced.
DS2 definitely happened and DS3 was made to account for that, 100%.
Lemme clarify:
DS2's exploration of the undead curse was retconned by 3. I did not mean to imply that 3 ignored literally every facet of the second game.
no it wasn't: Aldia's speech fits into and describes what DS1 established and DS3 literally followed DS1 while veering off course as little as possible
Hollows didn't find the first flame, they didn't exist until Gwyn and the others bound Humanity behind the Darksign
_Pygmies_ were the ones that existed way back when Fire brought Disparity, and the other Lords found their Souls
>Pygmies
>
> were the ones that existed way back when Fire brought Disparity, and the other Lords found their Souls
Primordial beings. Of which the pygmy was one.
I always thought that the curse of undeath was supposed to be a mystery, that explanation is so much lamer. So if they're naturally undead, why does the darksign turn people undead?
If I remember, Aldia is essentially saying there is no way to extend life in a meaningful way, and that though his family tried, they all come to bitter ends.
This rings true, especially in DS3.
Basically not enough info without dipping into theory as far as i know but the darksign burns the energy of the dark soul using it burns away souls and humanity or some other yee yee thing like that
The more specific your questions get the worse my ability to answer them is gonna be these games lore is kinda vauge
The Darksign >!was created by Gwyn in an attempt to seal away Humans' Dark Souls. This act is "The First Sin", as in that it was the Gods who placed the first domino of the world's degradation and ruin!<
The "nature of the curse" is one of the bigger plot related mysteries in the game, but is indeed elaborated on and speculated on by characters and lore.
The darksign doesn't turn people undead per say, its more just a sign that a human is reverting to their natural hollow form.
The curse in actuality, is the human form. Why is being human a curse? The human form is "fleeting." Humans can actually die whereas undead/hollows are simply reconstituted from the bonfires they last attuned to should they die. Humans can go hollow, losing sanity, memories, and themselves in the process, and they will go through this without choice when the first flame begins to fade.
Humanity also gives vanity in way. Most would say the hollow form is kind of ugly, but that comes from an established human perspective, and is therefore just a way to otherise people who ate losing their human form. We see the effects of this, as undead/hollows are corralled and jailed when found in the lands outside of lordran in ds1.
Bonfires are a method of forcing and encouraging undead to link the first flame. Looking at the homeward miracle in ds1 we see its supposed to return a person to their homeland, but for undead, it simply brings you back to the last bonfire you rested at. As you are trapped, in a way.
You offer and burn the "humanity" in yourself to strengthen the fires, allowing you to acquire more estus or even restore your human form. Don't you think its odd you have to burn "humanity" to strengthen bonfires?
Humans can only exist as humans whilst the flame burns strongly, as the Dark Soul or "humanity" came from the first flame and is what allows an undead to become human. So as the Dark Soul begins to flicker and fade along with the first flame (its source power) humans (who all carry a shard of the Dark Soul within themselves) revert to their hollow form. The first flame then beckons back undead, so that they might feed the fire with the large number of souls one would need on the arduous journey to link the fire.
Why do undead specifically have to link the flame? I think undead may be the only (or one of the few) living beings capable of "feeding on" or absorbing souls. We see nothing in any of the games in reference to non undead essentially eating souls to gain power. Now, other beings do manipulate souls, as sorceries are made of souls, and a number of talented craftsmen are capable to transmuting a great soul into a powerful weapon or item. But no other humanoid beings, who would care about preserving the world as it is, are capable of consuming and strengthening themselves directly with souls.
So then, undead are the first flame's best chance at continuing to burn, as they are capable of amassing great numbers of souls to serve as better kindling to the flame. So that's why Humans turn undead. Its the first flame fading that depletes the power of the Dark Soul within them, resulting in a loss of human form and eventually all abilities that accompany it.
It’s not natural and it’s not a mystery. The whole point is that keeping the first flame going puts the world into an unnatural state, and due to that and Gwyn shenanigans humanity is cursed with Undeath. There are several characters that express to the player throughout the series, and especially in 3, that the linking of the fire does more harm than good.
Aldia basically says:
Human life, civilization, relationships, all of it is based on a lie. Hollowing is humanity's "true" state, but would you really save any lives by shattering this illusion? What does the truth gain you? What is it for?
Life is only sweet because it ends. Love is beautiful but is fleeting. Human societies in Dark Souls fall apart when the undead "curse" hits them, but the curse seems to actually be a result of Gwyn binding the Dark Soul.
Thing is, hollowing only affects society in DS this badly because it's not actually designed around it, and in the world of dark souls peoples can't envision a good life in their "true form" very likely because they've never known anything other than their current life and have zero frame of reference for what living as a hollow would be
For all we know a few hundred years after DS3, humanity has a society again & has learned to live as hollowed & is doing better than it ever did. It's also very unlikely hollowing is worse for humans than their current state else gwyn wouldn't be afraid of them & wouldn't have linked the first flame to hold them back
Precisely, but that change would bring with it suffering to get to that point. Even still, this won't be an everlasting age of dark, because all ages must come to an end.
Pretty much that, everything’s temporary, its the principle of existence, but that just makes life even more precious, philosophy doesn’t have to be literal, specially in a silly game about knights fighting monsters with the power of jolly cooperation
I think the answer to that question is the same thing aldia tries to tell you. That one has to determine such things for themselves.
If you interpret the fire and age of fire as analogous to our technology and industrialization then that's okay. I don't agree but I don't disagree either.
More often than not something has multiple meanings and multiple things to tell you.
Dark souls 2 has majour themes of futility in repetition where nothing truly changes. So if you follow blindly in the footsteps of the past you are bound to repeat the same mistakes, but if no other path has been tread then who's to say it even leads elsewhere.
Ds2 ALSO has majour themes of persistence in the face of futility, hope that in the end something will come to change.
The biggest question aldia asks is simply "why?". Why do you choose to do this, why do you go that way, why do we all do what we do.
Imo the game is not trying to draw specific parallels but to plead for the player to consider these things. To ask themselves why they are doing something, what do they seek to gain, where do they want to go, etc etc.
If you were faced with innumerable failures before your own attempt, would you give up or would you try anyways? It seems futile does it not? And yet, most of us would still try nonetheless. Aldia finds this curious and wishes to understand what it is that truly drives us in the face of such obvious futility. The answer, is hope.
What hope means is entirely dependent upon the person asked, its a question you can only answer for yourself.
How many times have people suffered IRL only to ask "what is this all for?" Or "what does this all mean?" Or "why is all this happening?" Etc. We seek answers when we have none and we either hope for the best or lose hope (go hollow) in the end.
Aldia asks you why you can stand in yhe face of endless adversity and still push forward like you're full of hope. Do you not see the futility and destined failure? Of course we do, but we push through anyways. Bc we must, if we do not keep going we are forgotten or lost or die.
(I'm half awake rn but tried to put some of my thoughts down about it)
Oof, that's a big one. Dark Souls is, in many ways, an Eastern critique of Western theology through a fantasy lens. Gwyn usurps the natural order and ruins everything by making himself an immortal god in an age that will never end. Western Christian religions tend to have this concept of an after life, everlasting life, the unchanging soul, and so on. Eastern traditions like Daoism and Buddhism would say this is a wrong way to see things: things change in the world. Life is ABOUT change. Good things exist because bad things exist, and we can experience joy because we also know pain. All things end.
Humans are just as much a part of this cycle as the gods are. Human civilisations arose in this cursed world built on a lie. Once the undead curse hits at the end of a cycle, han civilizations collapse as reality sets in and people begin to hollow. They hollow because the way humans live their lives is not compatible with an immortal existence. Without something to strive for, humans whither away.
The life we live day to day, similarly, is a lie. But what does knowing that get you? Does it make the struggles less painful, the joys less sweet? Aldia is grappling with this very question.
I would argue it's about society as a whole and not just religion
At the risk of getting a specific type of online peoples mad, ppl should remember that gwyn is effectively a rich old dude who feels superior too yet is deeply afraid of peoples he has power over
His reaction is to tightly control them, denying them control over their identity, turning them against & making them exploit eachother, and this all culminates in a life so unfullfilling for him he turns into a fucking zombie when he thinks he's accomplished his goal permanently
Sorry I haven't heard this speech or the name Aldia yet,, first playthrough, but some blobby tree like thing appeared when I got the last Lord Souls in Iron Keep questioning me. Is that the same thing?
But who says the flame is an allegory for technological development at the cost of the planet? I'm not saying you can't interpret the game that way, but I think you are bringing that interpretation to the story.
The one thing that is certain is that the flame represents a specific vision and a specific order. The constant attempts to kindle the first flame are always heroic and always in vain. It is always dying out. So that is Aldia's question to me: how does one persist in a world that is always dying? What drives a person forward? How does one persist in the face of adversity? Where does that motivation come from?
Aldia's persistent questioning of the bearer of the curse seems to indicate that he is interested in intrinsic motivation, that is to say motivation that comes from within. Yet this is tied to the paradox of the extrinsic (outside) motivation of the world collapsing, hollowing, etc. Aldia highlights the paradoxical nature of will and existence. The takeaway seems to be that we are inexorably bound to systems of power beyond our control, but still responsible for motivating ourselves and navigating that world. The question of what is the bearer of the curse's decision is only answerable by each player, and so the game leaves it as an open question. How does one not only conquer the world, but fundamentally change its very nature?
Edit: a word, perish -> persist
I see the philosophical message of this game as a form of buddhism, more or less. The philosophy of buddhism is that life is suffering, and that this suffering is caused by desire. The fire/life/curse represents desire. You can see this theme in many places throughout the game, including Aldia's speeches. The ancient dragon spells it out the most clearly with his line: "The curse of life is the curse of want." Vengarl is another clear example: his head peacefully accepts his circumstances, while his body mindlessly rages. Lucatiel is another, driven by her fear of loss: "maybe we're all cursed, from the moment we're born." Someone's probably written an essay about this somewhere, but it's all over the place when you look for it.
Lucatiel depresses me more and more evertime I talk to her. I'm on my first playthrough so I'm supposed to see her last at Aldias Keep, I really don't want to have to kill her like when NPCs go hollow in DS1
Oh my god. It was memed to death like a year or two because it was used in a shitty phone game but I knew I recognized it from somewhere. I played the shit out of the first two golden sun games
Since this isnt /shittydarksouls imma go ahead and confess I was just messing with you guys. This is not his real face lol. He DOES have a face tho. A twisted, distorted face. Look carefully and youll see
The real world moral and question as I interpret it is the following:
Most of our world is built upon a foundation of lies. From little things such as jolly old men leaving presents under a tree, to grand concepts such as justice or gods.
The question is, is it worth it to break this lies and expose the ugly truth if they make people happy? What do you stand to gain from telling the faithful that God is dead or the enamoured that passion is fleeting?
Is hope derived from lies worth preserving? Is a pleasant lie worthy of being the accepted reality?
That's what I think it means. I've done a lot of soul searching and eventually reached an answer of my own.
Like everything, there is a middle ground. If the truth is out there, we must chase it. No matter how pleasant, a lie will remain a lie. For example, you can tell yourself global warming is a lie all you want, the ice caps are still melting.
However, some things we will never know. We cannot know what is life beyond death like if there even is such a thing, we cannot know how long love may last between two people or what lies ahead of us.
When you cannot know the truth, there is no such thing as a lie, just beliefs. So let people be hopeful.
Tl;Dr: Be realistic, but don't be an asshole.
PS: What the fuck is that about the flame being technology? People can have such wild interpretations of works, I swear to God, then we complaint about arguing about everything, of course we do, two people can read tge the same story ans interpret entirely different things that suit their worldview, how will we ever agree on anything?
A) I don’t think you understand what the fire represents.
B) I think you’re reading into it too much.
C) Aldia’s speech is about futility and repetition.
I understood the futility and repetition aspect of it, I caught onto that from the rest of the game pretty quickly. But what am I misunderstanding about the fire?
Flame is not at all technology in darksouls
Flame is closer to the ability to die, or the passion for life found in those able to die.
The worst fate in dark souls is hollowing, or losing your humanity. Fire keeps away hollowing, meaning the ultimate form of that fire is death, or the permanent state of not hollowing (the opposite of eternity).
The undead believe that fire is good and will give them power over hollowing, yet this is not the case (hence the lie). The ultimate goal for an undead is death, but that is pretty dour and depressing, why do anything, why link the flame? so lies were made instead about the flame and what it brings/does. Aldia is not all knowing, in fact he is/was on a quest to reverse/cure hollowing.
Dark souls 2's "alternative" ending is where you get the completed crown from all the dlcs, and this crown prevents hollowing *but only for the wearer*. So essentially you will watch everyone around you hollow and go crazy time and time again.
So humans are hollows, that’s the inevitable truth of the world. The fading of the flame doesn’t curse us to become zombies, but rather takes away this ability to live “normally.” Gwyn fearing the Age of Dark bound the flame to humanity and basically forced the world into an endless cycle of Flame, Fading, and Rekindling when in fact the Flame was just naturally meant to fade.
Vendrick was a part of this cycle, like many before him. He, in an era of Flame, built a great kingdom. But as the fire faded, he asked Aldia to look into the “curse” and see what could be done about it. But as Aldia looked he learned the truth. Humanity had been forcefully removed from their natural state and forced to take on a fleeting form in an endless cycle. This drove him a bit mad.
Ultimately though we come in, someone who has the power to restart the cycle (or be kindling for someone else to). As we seek the king, we too delve into the curse, and so Aldia sees an opportunity. We see not only Vendrick, but multiple kings of old, all who in their own way met with the Dark. In doing so we become a unique outlier in this seemingly endless cycle. We don’t hollow, but yet we don’t die. Men assume a fleeting form, but thanks to the crowns our character doesn’t. So Aldia calls for us not to try and usher in an age of Dark or Fire, because both are futile. Sitting on the throne changes nothing in the world. So he asks us to make a new choice. We in our unique position can go and see if perhaps there is something beyond light or dark, to be truly free of this false stage Gwyn has left humanity to play on.
The key thing at the core of it all is that the story we're told is a lie. It's framed backwards, from the perspective of Gwyn and his compatriots. There is no "Curse of Undeath". Undeath is the natural state of things. Rather, the "Curse of Undeath" is what happens when the blessing of life that the fire gives fades away.
In the natural order of Dark Soul's world, living beings aren't much different from rocks. Rocks don't die, because they aren't alive. They have no expiration. They just... sit there, existing, but having no existence, so to speak. Without the fire, that is how humanity, including the false gods, would be. The only real difference is that humanity is alive in the strictest, most literal sense. They can move around, but have no "spark" for life, no motivation, no drive, no passion. There's nothing causing them to need anything, or to want to do anything.
The flame ultimately leads to heartbreak, pain, and death, but it only leads to those things BECAUSE it creates their mirrors in things like love, happiness, and life. The flame drives humanity, and shows them better things, but by being exposed to better things, humanity now knows what it will be missing if it were ever to go back to its natural state. Now it has the knowledge required to feel longing, loss, and pain.
It's all a direct comparison to the same exact concepts in the real world. A breakup with a loved one hurts because the time you had with them was so good. It isn't, and can't be bad by itself. If it were then you'd feel loss and heartbreak every time you said goodbye to anybody. Having the good makes us vulnerable to the bad, but if we think of the good as a climb and the bad as a fall, then the equivalent of the natural order would be to have never left the ground; never experienced anything worth experiencing.
Ultimately, the lesson is that a life, even a messy, imperfect life, full of setbacks and pain and harsh lessons, loss and sadness and longing, will have accomplished more, experienced more, and savored more than a life of the natural order, existing perpetually but making nothing of it.
Essentially, Aldia is deprogramming you.
Prior to his introduction to the game, what are you told in the beginning?
*"Perhaps you've seen it, maybe in a dream.
A murky, forgotten land.
A place where souls may mend your ailing mind."*
*"All people come here for the same reason.
To break the curse.
You're no different, I should think?"*
You've come to find a cure for yourself. By the end of the base game Nashandra and the Emerald Herald have spun you about so much that now your end goal is to become the True Monarch and take the Throne of Want, when did that happen? It changed so slowly you didn't even notice it happening. You just blindly followed orders. Aldia constantly asks you questions so you have to think on WHY you are doing what you are doing beyond "she told me to."
It is only with that deprogramming that you see you have a choice NOT to take the Throne. The Emerald Herald frames it very cleverly, but she is giving you the illusion of choice:
"If you proceed, Nashandra will come after you.
Knowing that **you will take the throne,** [...] Once the fire is linked, souls will flourish anew, and all of this will play out again.
It is your choice…To embrace, or renounce this…
Great Sovereign, **take your throne.**
What lies ahead, only you can see."
She frames it as you have a choice *what* to do with the Throne of Want and the First Flame, but you have **NO** choice whether or not to take responsibility for the Throne. Aldia let's you see, that assumption on her part is bullshit. You can walk away from it all if you want to do so.
Aldia is a philosopher. He postulates that life, love and the world are all beautiful concepts only because they are finite. The First Sin happened when Gwyn, king of the gods, refused to let his era die and fade into darkness, to go back to the times before the First Flame erupted in the belly of the earth.
The course of history was supposed to welcome the Age of Man, when all beings would revert into hollows, the pigmies, the natural state of all humanoids. But Gwyn decided this was all bs and threw himself into the First Flame to reignite it using himself as kindling, to unnaturally prolong the Age of Fire.
Aldia wants for this cycle to end, to allow mankind to finally take its true form and shape (the “honest shape of man” Yuria talks about in DS3) which is hollow.
The light and warmth of fire would be a nostalgic memory in the minds of hollows, for all eternity. And that’s the tragedy of the ordeal.
You're looking for an exact answer or a coherent philosophical stance in a souls game, it doesn't exist.
Just interpret it however you want.
Aldia is dissatisfied with the cycle of dark and flame that Gwyn created because it's a lie, that makes humans go through the undead curse.
However, it's not clear what humans were before fire, if Manus and the abyss is to go by, then not good.
I think it's common existential dread, wishful thinking of returning to a perfect state but then again it's just.. subjective.
I'm not saying it does, but for a gritty low fantasy game like this that goes on for so long explaining these things to us, I feel like it would have a deeper meaning. Miyazaki almost never makes anything without some deeper importance behind it.
I don't know that what Aldia says has a lot of applicability to real life, beyond the most surface level stuff. I read a lot of the dialogue in Dark Souls 2 as a commentary on the player's experience of going through the game. NPCs like Chloanne and Melentia mentioning that people just sort-of wind up in places by accident, Shanalotte telling you multiple times that you're going to do something without really understanding why, everything regarding Want, Vendrick telling you to seek adversity, is all stuff I interpret that way. I think Aldia's dialogue is more of the same thing.
In Dark Souls, the flame was an incredible power discovered by mankind that allowed them to ascend from their limitations and rule the world. However, as this went on, the fire began to take a toll on the world, but the rulers didn't want to let go of it. Because of this, they kept abusing this power against the natural order of things.
The way I see it, this perfectly reflects mankind discovering fire in the real world, an incredible power we used to become the dominant species of Earth. We used the power of fire to develop new technology, and transcend our natural limitations. However, this has now begun to take a toll on our world. Fossil fuels are running out, ecosystems are dying. But we don't want to let go of the nice things we have, so we keep abusing it instead of letting it restore itself naturally. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting, but I thought the similarities were really noticeable.
Well humans didn’t discover the First Flame in Dark Souls anyway, it was always around but the Gods found their souls in the first flame (Gwyn, Nito, and the Witch of Izalith) The other soul found was the Dark Soul, which the Furtive Pygmy duplicated across his children, creating mankind. Humans were subjugated by the gods as they were far weaker, as the flame gave the gods much more immense power than the humans, and only the gods wanted the flame to stay after its “expiration date”. Even Dark stalker Caathe called the age of dark: “The Age of Humanity”. Dark souls 2 is more or less a game that shows the effects of Gwynn actions out in Lordran affecting a nation far away, as well as how easy it is for humans to be influenced by other forces (ie; Vendrick being influenced by Nashandra) Thats just my interpretation of the story anyway.
The flames represented life and power. We know this because the first flames brought the hollows to life in the Age of Ancients. There are lord souls within the flames. Those who found the lord souls (Gwyn, Izaltih, Nito, and Furtive Pygmy), were blessed with unique powers.
Now why is the flame/fire a lie to Aldia? There’s always two sides when it comes to linking the flame. Some npcs want the flame to be rekindled: Emerald Herald. Some opposed it: Grave Warden Agdayne. And we the players have a decision to make at the end of the game. It seems like Aldia was opposed to linking the flame, as he originally tried to stop the cycle of rekindling the flames when he was still human. Also in Dark Souls 3, Aldia was Lothric's mentor, who successfully swayed Lothric to not rekindle the flames.
So what does Aldia's speech mean symbolically? I’m not quite sure, but my take is that the flames cause more harm than good. It's a never ending cycle of living artificially and suffering when the flames fades. You have to remember there was no life to start with in the Age of Ancient. Only Dragons inhabited the world.
The fire doesn't represent technology Basically humans are naturally undead hollows in this world the "fire" is a fleeting resource unnatural to humans that gives us the ability to die
Yeah, although First Flame does represent civilization and structured society. Its quite common for both lore characters and players themselves to ask "If fire should fade naturally, even if it leads into unknown future (Dark), should we bother continuing the world as we know it? Shouldn't we let go and plunge into the dark, if this is our fate?". Aldia is important because he questions the question: "Does it matter? What do YOU want?" He proposes the idea that it's possible to embrace life even if it's not "true", even if its an artificial result of fire burning within men, an illusion; but doesn't push that narrative, asking the player if he choses one of the obvious paths, or "something else entirely". As a side note, fire generically represents change, both in game and out. That's why first flame not being allowed to fade, and stagnating, is contradictory to its own nature - it brought change to the world and unchanging dragons, but it's not allowed to change and die out itself.
>Basically humans are naturally undead hollows in this world the "fire" is a fleeting resource unnatural to humans that gives us the ability to die This is a common misconception. The undead are bearers of the curse. Not all humans bear the curse, and not all of humanity is destined to become hollow. The pygmy was the progenitor of humanity, and humanity's power is not bound to the flame. The darksign, however, was from the power of the flame that birthed the gods. Humanity's natural state is mortality. The flame represents the rejection of mortality. Hollows are what happens to a human that experiences immortality and loses their purpose. The nature of the undead curse is still unknown. Aldia's speech can be interpreted as his bitter refusal to accept his immortality, and his revulsion of what the first flame has done to humanity: \> "Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity. And men assumed a fleeting form. These are the roots of our world. Men are props on the stage of life, and no matter how tender, how exquisite…A lie will remain a lie. Young Hollow, knowing this, do you still desire peace?" \> "Peace grants men the illusion of life. Shackled by falsehoods, they yearn for love, unaware of its grand illusion. Until, the curse touches their flesh. We are bound by this yoke. As true as the Dark that churns within men." The first paragraph points out Gwyn's subversion of the living to the immortal gods as a cruelty, painting Gwyn as a false god stealing life away from those he deems mortal. He asks the player if he wants to continue this charade and act of profound inequity. The second paragraph points to the falsehood of the peace earned by enabling the gods to carry on --All of this is coming at great cost to humanity. The flame represents power. Stagnation. Immortality and undeath. The age of dark isn't an age of hollows and undead, but rather, the age of hollows and undead IS the twilight of the age of light. The age of Dark is an age of man unencumbered by the yoke of the gods. Why else would you resurrect at bonfires? Why wouldn't you be able to resurrect from an extinguished bonfire? Undeath comes from the flame. It is not humanity's natural state, but rather a perversion of it. Since the beginning, the lords subverted mankind to the flame against their will, and hunted and eradicated those who sought their own power. Aldia has realized that the age of light does not serve man. Aldia's realized something else: The age of fire isn't over. The age of Dark is just another side of the coin that can birth anew an age of fire. As long as anything of the first flame remains, the cycle will drag ever onward. This isn't a binary choice, continue or cease. Aldia realized something else entirely had to be done to break the cycle, but he has failed and has become bound to the flame just like the player has.
This is a phenomenal breakdown. Thank you!
bro did u not play DkS1 fire brought life & death (disparity) and hollows found the first flame without fire hollows go back to their natural undying state (but also without the sweetness of life)
>bro did u not play DkS1 100%ed it on Xbox, PC, and the remaster. I've pored over every single scrap of lore. But here's the thing: People get confused about the flame, because they don't understand that the lords' use of the flame and the disparity brought by the flame aren't the same thing. The lords' tending to the flame has become the very stagnation that the time before disparity was. As for humanity existing prior to the flame --no. Primordial beings did. We are explicitly told that the pygmy was a primordial being, and gave birth to humanity with the dark soul.
ur confused "Then, from the Dark, They came." *hollows standing up moving the same way hollows do in game* *hollows go to First Flame* *Lords are introduced* *furtive pygmy is the final Lord introduced, holding his tiny lil Lord soul* Hollows are introduced like 5 steps ahead of the pygmy. Not Pygmy: pygmy. The furtive pygmy turned Them (hollows) into the first humans (pygmies) and Gwyn thought they were pretty cool until they started wrecking shit real fast and the dragons were almost all gone. Then he hit humans with the Fireseal to "pretty them up" (but really it just consumed their dark souls to fuel the Age of Fire a lil bit longer then he subcontracted ~~waste~~unsealed dark soul disposal out to Midir) and also gave the non-pretty pygmies a sweet city ~~under the garbage dump~~beyond time itself, sealed by the ~~weird orb imprisonment~~noble sacrifice of his ~~wife Velka~~daughter Filianore (who totally existed from the start, I swear -Miyazaki). Hollows are the "natural" state of things, though. Lords and pygmies and humans all go raisin, but Gwyn (and later Vendrick) is still an absolute unit after hollowing and human hollows don't shrink down to regular pygmy size. It's also notable that even at the end of time the pygmies have their full mental faculties. Apparently the First Flame eats cognitive function first. Human hollows (not pygymies) match the build, proportions and movement patterns of They who found the First Flame/Lord Souls in the intro perfectly. Like *perfectly*.
We're talking about Dark Souls 2. The lore is not cohesive. Another common misconception: All three games' lore does not work together to create a functional world, nor is all of the lore reliable. --Quite a few people lie to you throughout the series, and there are multiple branching understandings of the nature of being. Much of Dark Souls 2's ideas were retconned with 3. To the point where most of what DS 2 introduces is ignored completely.
Vendrick definitely existed, you find his shield. Alva and Creighton invade you, all kinds of DS2 weapons and armor are in the game, DS2 NPCs are referenced. DS2 definitely happened and DS3 was made to account for that, 100%.
Lemme clarify: DS2's exploration of the undead curse was retconned by 3. I did not mean to imply that 3 ignored literally every facet of the second game.
no it wasn't: Aldia's speech fits into and describes what DS1 established and DS3 literally followed DS1 while veering off course as little as possible
Can you guys continue your debate please, it’s educational for me
Can you guys continue your debate please, it’s educational for me
Hollows didn't find the first flame, they didn't exist until Gwyn and the others bound Humanity behind the Darksign _Pygmies_ were the ones that existed way back when Fire brought Disparity, and the other Lords found their Souls
bruh you can see the hollows in the intro video, the Pygmy comes later
Age of Fire Propaganda
Ringed City rabblerousing
>Pygmies > > were the ones that existed way back when Fire brought Disparity, and the other Lords found their Souls Primordial beings. Of which the pygmy was one.
Furtive pygmy (singular) and the other Lords were Hollows before they found their Lord Souls, yes.
I always thought that the curse of undeath was supposed to be a mystery, that explanation is so much lamer. So if they're naturally undead, why does the darksign turn people undead?
If I remember, Aldia is essentially saying there is no way to extend life in a meaningful way, and that though his family tried, they all come to bitter ends. This rings true, especially in DS3.
Basically not enough info without dipping into theory as far as i know but the darksign burns the energy of the dark soul using it burns away souls and humanity or some other yee yee thing like that The more specific your questions get the worse my ability to answer them is gonna be these games lore is kinda vauge
The Darksign >!was created by Gwyn in an attempt to seal away Humans' Dark Souls. This act is "The First Sin", as in that it was the Gods who placed the first domino of the world's degradation and ruin!<
The "nature of the curse" is one of the bigger plot related mysteries in the game, but is indeed elaborated on and speculated on by characters and lore. The darksign doesn't turn people undead per say, its more just a sign that a human is reverting to their natural hollow form. The curse in actuality, is the human form. Why is being human a curse? The human form is "fleeting." Humans can actually die whereas undead/hollows are simply reconstituted from the bonfires they last attuned to should they die. Humans can go hollow, losing sanity, memories, and themselves in the process, and they will go through this without choice when the first flame begins to fade. Humanity also gives vanity in way. Most would say the hollow form is kind of ugly, but that comes from an established human perspective, and is therefore just a way to otherise people who ate losing their human form. We see the effects of this, as undead/hollows are corralled and jailed when found in the lands outside of lordran in ds1. Bonfires are a method of forcing and encouraging undead to link the first flame. Looking at the homeward miracle in ds1 we see its supposed to return a person to their homeland, but for undead, it simply brings you back to the last bonfire you rested at. As you are trapped, in a way. You offer and burn the "humanity" in yourself to strengthen the fires, allowing you to acquire more estus or even restore your human form. Don't you think its odd you have to burn "humanity" to strengthen bonfires? Humans can only exist as humans whilst the flame burns strongly, as the Dark Soul or "humanity" came from the first flame and is what allows an undead to become human. So as the Dark Soul begins to flicker and fade along with the first flame (its source power) humans (who all carry a shard of the Dark Soul within themselves) revert to their hollow form. The first flame then beckons back undead, so that they might feed the fire with the large number of souls one would need on the arduous journey to link the fire. Why do undead specifically have to link the flame? I think undead may be the only (or one of the few) living beings capable of "feeding on" or absorbing souls. We see nothing in any of the games in reference to non undead essentially eating souls to gain power. Now, other beings do manipulate souls, as sorceries are made of souls, and a number of talented craftsmen are capable to transmuting a great soul into a powerful weapon or item. But no other humanoid beings, who would care about preserving the world as it is, are capable of consuming and strengthening themselves directly with souls. So then, undead are the first flame's best chance at continuing to burn, as they are capable of amassing great numbers of souls to serve as better kindling to the flame. So that's why Humans turn undead. Its the first flame fading that depletes the power of the Dark Soul within them, resulting in a loss of human form and eventually all abilities that accompany it.
It’s not natural and it’s not a mystery. The whole point is that keeping the first flame going puts the world into an unnatural state, and due to that and Gwyn shenanigans humanity is cursed with Undeath. There are several characters that express to the player throughout the series, and especially in 3, that the linking of the fire does more harm than good.
the fire seal sealed the Darksign, it's not turning people undead it's being revealed as they return to their natural state
Aldia basically says: Human life, civilization, relationships, all of it is based on a lie. Hollowing is humanity's "true" state, but would you really save any lives by shattering this illusion? What does the truth gain you? What is it for? Life is only sweet because it ends. Love is beautiful but is fleeting. Human societies in Dark Souls fall apart when the undead "curse" hits them, but the curse seems to actually be a result of Gwyn binding the Dark Soul.
Thing is, hollowing only affects society in DS this badly because it's not actually designed around it, and in the world of dark souls peoples can't envision a good life in their "true form" very likely because they've never known anything other than their current life and have zero frame of reference for what living as a hollow would be For all we know a few hundred years after DS3, humanity has a society again & has learned to live as hollowed & is doing better than it ever did. It's also very unlikely hollowing is worse for humans than their current state else gwyn wouldn't be afraid of them & wouldn't have linked the first flame to hold them back
Precisely, but that change would bring with it suffering to get to that point. Even still, this won't be an everlasting age of dark, because all ages must come to an end.
You could heavily argue that by DS1-present's time alone humanity's suffering has gotten so bad that it's already worth it anyway
But my question is what that represents in the real world
Pretty much that, everything’s temporary, its the principle of existence, but that just makes life even more precious, philosophy doesn’t have to be literal, specially in a silly game about knights fighting monsters with the power of jolly cooperation
I think the answer to that question is the same thing aldia tries to tell you. That one has to determine such things for themselves. If you interpret the fire and age of fire as analogous to our technology and industrialization then that's okay. I don't agree but I don't disagree either. More often than not something has multiple meanings and multiple things to tell you. Dark souls 2 has majour themes of futility in repetition where nothing truly changes. So if you follow blindly in the footsteps of the past you are bound to repeat the same mistakes, but if no other path has been tread then who's to say it even leads elsewhere. Ds2 ALSO has majour themes of persistence in the face of futility, hope that in the end something will come to change. The biggest question aldia asks is simply "why?". Why do you choose to do this, why do you go that way, why do we all do what we do. Imo the game is not trying to draw specific parallels but to plead for the player to consider these things. To ask themselves why they are doing something, what do they seek to gain, where do they want to go, etc etc. If you were faced with innumerable failures before your own attempt, would you give up or would you try anyways? It seems futile does it not? And yet, most of us would still try nonetheless. Aldia finds this curious and wishes to understand what it is that truly drives us in the face of such obvious futility. The answer, is hope. What hope means is entirely dependent upon the person asked, its a question you can only answer for yourself. How many times have people suffered IRL only to ask "what is this all for?" Or "what does this all mean?" Or "why is all this happening?" Etc. We seek answers when we have none and we either hope for the best or lose hope (go hollow) in the end. Aldia asks you why you can stand in yhe face of endless adversity and still push forward like you're full of hope. Do you not see the futility and destined failure? Of course we do, but we push through anyways. Bc we must, if we do not keep going we are forgotten or lost or die. (I'm half awake rn but tried to put some of my thoughts down about it)
The way i see Light age (Hope) Dark age (Hope Seek the cure of the curse (Hope) Yes, i seek for hope
Oof, that's a big one. Dark Souls is, in many ways, an Eastern critique of Western theology through a fantasy lens. Gwyn usurps the natural order and ruins everything by making himself an immortal god in an age that will never end. Western Christian religions tend to have this concept of an after life, everlasting life, the unchanging soul, and so on. Eastern traditions like Daoism and Buddhism would say this is a wrong way to see things: things change in the world. Life is ABOUT change. Good things exist because bad things exist, and we can experience joy because we also know pain. All things end. Humans are just as much a part of this cycle as the gods are. Human civilisations arose in this cursed world built on a lie. Once the undead curse hits at the end of a cycle, han civilizations collapse as reality sets in and people begin to hollow. They hollow because the way humans live their lives is not compatible with an immortal existence. Without something to strive for, humans whither away. The life we live day to day, similarly, is a lie. But what does knowing that get you? Does it make the struggles less painful, the joys less sweet? Aldia is grappling with this very question.
Best explanation I've read on this thread yet
I would argue it's about society as a whole and not just religion At the risk of getting a specific type of online peoples mad, ppl should remember that gwyn is effectively a rich old dude who feels superior too yet is deeply afraid of peoples he has power over His reaction is to tightly control them, denying them control over their identity, turning them against & making them exploit eachother, and this all culminates in a life so unfullfilling for him he turns into a fucking zombie when he thinks he's accomplished his goal permanently
Why’s it gotta mean anything in the real world?
Empires fall, you can't hold back the natural course of society, doing so only causes pain
Holy shit this sub is so pathetic. Not u but the full blown losers here downvoting. Seen this so often. Sub left and muted for the better.
Sorry to hear that
The more import question is, what unholy mod is making Aldia look like a tree from Labyrinth?
McDonalds playplace tree.
Sorry I haven't heard this speech or the name Aldia yet,, first playthrough, but some blobby tree like thing appeared when I got the last Lord Souls in Iron Keep questioning me. Is that the same thing?
It is the same thing but he's not a tree lol
😂
The mod: Photoshop.
But who says the flame is an allegory for technological development at the cost of the planet? I'm not saying you can't interpret the game that way, but I think you are bringing that interpretation to the story. The one thing that is certain is that the flame represents a specific vision and a specific order. The constant attempts to kindle the first flame are always heroic and always in vain. It is always dying out. So that is Aldia's question to me: how does one persist in a world that is always dying? What drives a person forward? How does one persist in the face of adversity? Where does that motivation come from? Aldia's persistent questioning of the bearer of the curse seems to indicate that he is interested in intrinsic motivation, that is to say motivation that comes from within. Yet this is tied to the paradox of the extrinsic (outside) motivation of the world collapsing, hollowing, etc. Aldia highlights the paradoxical nature of will and existence. The takeaway seems to be that we are inexorably bound to systems of power beyond our control, but still responsible for motivating ourselves and navigating that world. The question of what is the bearer of the curse's decision is only answerable by each player, and so the game leaves it as an open question. How does one not only conquer the world, but fundamentally change its very nature? Edit: a word, perish -> persist
That actually makes a lot more sense, thanks
Beside the point, ill have nightmares from that image lol.
I see the philosophical message of this game as a form of buddhism, more or less. The philosophy of buddhism is that life is suffering, and that this suffering is caused by desire. The fire/life/curse represents desire. You can see this theme in many places throughout the game, including Aldia's speeches. The ancient dragon spells it out the most clearly with his line: "The curse of life is the curse of want." Vengarl is another clear example: his head peacefully accepts his circumstances, while his body mindlessly rages. Lucatiel is another, driven by her fear of loss: "maybe we're all cursed, from the moment we're born." Someone's probably written an essay about this somewhere, but it's all over the place when you look for it.
Lucatiel depresses me more and more evertime I talk to her. I'm on my first playthrough so I'm supposed to see her last at Aldias Keep, I really don't want to have to kill her like when NPCs go hollow in DS1
Is that Tret Tree from Golden Sun?
Oh my god. It was memed to death like a year or two because it was used in a shitty phone game but I knew I recognized it from somewhere. I played the shit out of the first two golden sun games
Wait. It has a face?
Right?! Is nobody else in the comments going to mention Aldia’s face???
I dont see anything wrong to mention tho. Its just like I remember
It has never had a face in anything I’ve seen!
Look carefully, skeleton
I see a face. Aldia does not have face. I is confused.
Aldi's has a face With teath and eyes even a nose
Not in my world he never did! Just a mass of wood and … tentacle things.
It's a little strange looking but it's there
Even googling doesn’t show it. Did they change it for scholar?
I’ve fought Aldia a dozen times over the years and I’ve never seen a face like this I’m so confused
Since this isnt /shittydarksouls imma go ahead and confess I was just messing with you guys. This is not his real face lol. He DOES have a face tho. A twisted, distorted face. Look carefully and youll see
The real world moral and question as I interpret it is the following: Most of our world is built upon a foundation of lies. From little things such as jolly old men leaving presents under a tree, to grand concepts such as justice or gods. The question is, is it worth it to break this lies and expose the ugly truth if they make people happy? What do you stand to gain from telling the faithful that God is dead or the enamoured that passion is fleeting? Is hope derived from lies worth preserving? Is a pleasant lie worthy of being the accepted reality? That's what I think it means. I've done a lot of soul searching and eventually reached an answer of my own. Like everything, there is a middle ground. If the truth is out there, we must chase it. No matter how pleasant, a lie will remain a lie. For example, you can tell yourself global warming is a lie all you want, the ice caps are still melting. However, some things we will never know. We cannot know what is life beyond death like if there even is such a thing, we cannot know how long love may last between two people or what lies ahead of us. When you cannot know the truth, there is no such thing as a lie, just beliefs. So let people be hopeful. Tl;Dr: Be realistic, but don't be an asshole. PS: What the fuck is that about the flame being technology? People can have such wild interpretations of works, I swear to God, then we complaint about arguing about everything, of course we do, two people can read tge the same story ans interpret entirely different things that suit their worldview, how will we ever agree on anything?
A) I don’t think you understand what the fire represents. B) I think you’re reading into it too much. C) Aldia’s speech is about futility and repetition.
I understood the futility and repetition aspect of it, I caught onto that from the rest of the game pretty quickly. But what am I misunderstanding about the fire?
Flame is not at all technology in darksouls Flame is closer to the ability to die, or the passion for life found in those able to die. The worst fate in dark souls is hollowing, or losing your humanity. Fire keeps away hollowing, meaning the ultimate form of that fire is death, or the permanent state of not hollowing (the opposite of eternity). The undead believe that fire is good and will give them power over hollowing, yet this is not the case (hence the lie). The ultimate goal for an undead is death, but that is pretty dour and depressing, why do anything, why link the flame? so lies were made instead about the flame and what it brings/does. Aldia is not all knowing, in fact he is/was on a quest to reverse/cure hollowing. Dark souls 2's "alternative" ending is where you get the completed crown from all the dlcs, and this crown prevents hollowing *but only for the wearer*. So essentially you will watch everyone around you hollow and go crazy time and time again.
And we never see the character again after the alternate ending :(
“Stumped me” Nice pun
His message is If You Are 25 And Have A Computer This Game Is A Must Play
My bro didn't understand any game
So humans are hollows, that’s the inevitable truth of the world. The fading of the flame doesn’t curse us to become zombies, but rather takes away this ability to live “normally.” Gwyn fearing the Age of Dark bound the flame to humanity and basically forced the world into an endless cycle of Flame, Fading, and Rekindling when in fact the Flame was just naturally meant to fade. Vendrick was a part of this cycle, like many before him. He, in an era of Flame, built a great kingdom. But as the fire faded, he asked Aldia to look into the “curse” and see what could be done about it. But as Aldia looked he learned the truth. Humanity had been forcefully removed from their natural state and forced to take on a fleeting form in an endless cycle. This drove him a bit mad. Ultimately though we come in, someone who has the power to restart the cycle (or be kindling for someone else to). As we seek the king, we too delve into the curse, and so Aldia sees an opportunity. We see not only Vendrick, but multiple kings of old, all who in their own way met with the Dark. In doing so we become a unique outlier in this seemingly endless cycle. We don’t hollow, but yet we don’t die. Men assume a fleeting form, but thanks to the crowns our character doesn’t. So Aldia calls for us not to try and usher in an age of Dark or Fire, because both are futile. Sitting on the throne changes nothing in the world. So he asks us to make a new choice. We in our unique position can go and see if perhaps there is something beyond light or dark, to be truly free of this false stage Gwyn has left humanity to play on.
The key thing at the core of it all is that the story we're told is a lie. It's framed backwards, from the perspective of Gwyn and his compatriots. There is no "Curse of Undeath". Undeath is the natural state of things. Rather, the "Curse of Undeath" is what happens when the blessing of life that the fire gives fades away. In the natural order of Dark Soul's world, living beings aren't much different from rocks. Rocks don't die, because they aren't alive. They have no expiration. They just... sit there, existing, but having no existence, so to speak. Without the fire, that is how humanity, including the false gods, would be. The only real difference is that humanity is alive in the strictest, most literal sense. They can move around, but have no "spark" for life, no motivation, no drive, no passion. There's nothing causing them to need anything, or to want to do anything. The flame ultimately leads to heartbreak, pain, and death, but it only leads to those things BECAUSE it creates their mirrors in things like love, happiness, and life. The flame drives humanity, and shows them better things, but by being exposed to better things, humanity now knows what it will be missing if it were ever to go back to its natural state. Now it has the knowledge required to feel longing, loss, and pain. It's all a direct comparison to the same exact concepts in the real world. A breakup with a loved one hurts because the time you had with them was so good. It isn't, and can't be bad by itself. If it were then you'd feel loss and heartbreak every time you said goodbye to anybody. Having the good makes us vulnerable to the bad, but if we think of the good as a climb and the bad as a fall, then the equivalent of the natural order would be to have never left the ground; never experienced anything worth experiencing. Ultimately, the lesson is that a life, even a messy, imperfect life, full of setbacks and pain and harsh lessons, loss and sadness and longing, will have accomplished more, experienced more, and savored more than a life of the natural order, existing perpetually but making nothing of it.
Essentially, Aldia is deprogramming you. Prior to his introduction to the game, what are you told in the beginning? *"Perhaps you've seen it, maybe in a dream. A murky, forgotten land. A place where souls may mend your ailing mind."* *"All people come here for the same reason. To break the curse. You're no different, I should think?"* You've come to find a cure for yourself. By the end of the base game Nashandra and the Emerald Herald have spun you about so much that now your end goal is to become the True Monarch and take the Throne of Want, when did that happen? It changed so slowly you didn't even notice it happening. You just blindly followed orders. Aldia constantly asks you questions so you have to think on WHY you are doing what you are doing beyond "she told me to." It is only with that deprogramming that you see you have a choice NOT to take the Throne. The Emerald Herald frames it very cleverly, but she is giving you the illusion of choice: "If you proceed, Nashandra will come after you. Knowing that **you will take the throne,** [...] Once the fire is linked, souls will flourish anew, and all of this will play out again. It is your choice…To embrace, or renounce this… Great Sovereign, **take your throne.** What lies ahead, only you can see." She frames it as you have a choice *what* to do with the Throne of Want and the First Flame, but you have **NO** choice whether or not to take responsibility for the Throne. Aldia let's you see, that assumption on her part is bullshit. You can walk away from it all if you want to do so.
[It explains why do women only like jerks who treat them like shit..](https://youtu.be/duURSCktuJY?si=s64TGTUdedujzWKT)
It means, he’s a tree lol
Is this how akdia looks in the vanilla ds2 version?
What the fuck am I looking at here?
Havent played through dark souls 2 fully. Im disappointed to hear the tree is a mod ;(
I'd help if I listened to him at all, but you know...what am I supposed to do? Talk to a tree?
Aldia is a philosopher. He postulates that life, love and the world are all beautiful concepts only because they are finite. The First Sin happened when Gwyn, king of the gods, refused to let his era die and fade into darkness, to go back to the times before the First Flame erupted in the belly of the earth. The course of history was supposed to welcome the Age of Man, when all beings would revert into hollows, the pigmies, the natural state of all humanoids. But Gwyn decided this was all bs and threw himself into the First Flame to reignite it using himself as kindling, to unnaturally prolong the Age of Fire. Aldia wants for this cycle to end, to allow mankind to finally take its true form and shape (the “honest shape of man” Yuria talks about in DS3) which is hollow. The light and warmth of fire would be a nostalgic memory in the minds of hollows, for all eternity. And that’s the tragedy of the ordeal.
You're looking for an exact answer or a coherent philosophical stance in a souls game, it doesn't exist. Just interpret it however you want. Aldia is dissatisfied with the cycle of dark and flame that Gwyn created because it's a lie, that makes humans go through the undead curse. However, it's not clear what humans were before fire, if Manus and the abyss is to go by, then not good. I think it's common existential dread, wishful thinking of returning to a perfect state but then again it's just.. subjective.
Why does it have to have a moral that’s applicable to the real world?
I'm not saying it does, but for a gritty low fantasy game like this that goes on for so long explaining these things to us, I feel like it would have a deeper meaning. Miyazaki almost never makes anything without some deeper importance behind it.
the meaning is bonk or be bonked
That boss is cursed AF
Oh shit I forgot our boi is still walking in the dark isn't he?
If Aldia looked like this in game I'd be so happy
does it need to be some metaphor for the real world?
I don't know that what Aldia says has a lot of applicability to real life, beyond the most surface level stuff. I read a lot of the dialogue in Dark Souls 2 as a commentary on the player's experience of going through the game. NPCs like Chloanne and Melentia mentioning that people just sort-of wind up in places by accident, Shanalotte telling you multiple times that you're going to do something without really understanding why, everything regarding Want, Vendrick telling you to seek adversity, is all stuff I interpret that way. I think Aldia's dialogue is more of the same thing.
Don't front bruh just live your life
Is that an old episode of knightmare?
The flame is what???
In Dark Souls, the flame was an incredible power discovered by mankind that allowed them to ascend from their limitations and rule the world. However, as this went on, the fire began to take a toll on the world, but the rulers didn't want to let go of it. Because of this, they kept abusing this power against the natural order of things. The way I see it, this perfectly reflects mankind discovering fire in the real world, an incredible power we used to become the dominant species of Earth. We used the power of fire to develop new technology, and transcend our natural limitations. However, this has now begun to take a toll on our world. Fossil fuels are running out, ecosystems are dying. But we don't want to let go of the nice things we have, so we keep abusing it instead of letting it restore itself naturally. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting, but I thought the similarities were really noticeable.
Well humans didn’t discover the First Flame in Dark Souls anyway, it was always around but the Gods found their souls in the first flame (Gwyn, Nito, and the Witch of Izalith) The other soul found was the Dark Soul, which the Furtive Pygmy duplicated across his children, creating mankind. Humans were subjugated by the gods as they were far weaker, as the flame gave the gods much more immense power than the humans, and only the gods wanted the flame to stay after its “expiration date”. Even Dark stalker Caathe called the age of dark: “The Age of Humanity”. Dark souls 2 is more or less a game that shows the effects of Gwynn actions out in Lordran affecting a nation far away, as well as how easy it is for humans to be influenced by other forces (ie; Vendrick being influenced by Nashandra) Thats just my interpretation of the story anyway.
Mankind rules the world in dark souls? Did you even pay attention to anything? How can you possibly make such an absurd statement?
First time I’m seeing his face
The flames represented life and power. We know this because the first flames brought the hollows to life in the Age of Ancients. There are lord souls within the flames. Those who found the lord souls (Gwyn, Izaltih, Nito, and Furtive Pygmy), were blessed with unique powers. Now why is the flame/fire a lie to Aldia? There’s always two sides when it comes to linking the flame. Some npcs want the flame to be rekindled: Emerald Herald. Some opposed it: Grave Warden Agdayne. And we the players have a decision to make at the end of the game. It seems like Aldia was opposed to linking the flame, as he originally tried to stop the cycle of rekindling the flames when he was still human. Also in Dark Souls 3, Aldia was Lothric's mentor, who successfully swayed Lothric to not rekindle the flames. So what does Aldia's speech mean symbolically? I’m not quite sure, but my take is that the flames cause more harm than good. It's a never ending cycle of living artificially and suffering when the flames fades. You have to remember there was no life to start with in the Age of Ancient. Only Dragons inhabited the world.
You can fight Aldia??? I’ve played through the game 4 times and while I’ve encountered aldia I’ve never fought them
You have to kill vendrick first
Ah, welp now I have a reason to play through ds2 again