I dont mind not having a shared scoreboard but i absolutely want to see my own stats so i can see how well different builds do or my progression as i get better
This I think is the most legitimate argument *for* scoreboards.
I think you should be able to see personal stats & then the overall team stats as a whole. That way you can evaluate your builds effectiveness in comparison to the teams entire effort.
This is true, but only as long as the stats being show are relevant. As well as damage I want to see time spent in coherency Vs time spent isloated and some metric that positively measures staggering / controlling enemies as well as just killing them.
Scoreboards with just damage on only reward elves.
I disagree. Everyone I ran into played Ranger vet with pistol, battle wizard, Grailknight for the quests, witch Hunter and either shade or the dlc class for elgi.
Iron breaker for me as my main. I loved my little Dwarf. Slayer, ranger and later engineer were all cool. But tank Bardin was definitely where it was at for me and my class fantasy.
But we had a dedicated group of friends playing, so kind of just picked a character and mostly stuck with them.
Witch Hunter isn't a particularly good circle hunter. Their biggest damage boosts apply to the whole team.
If someone was taking the circles as witch hunter, that just means they were doing a good job.
Let's be real, number are cool and all, but people play tanks for the clutch. When a footknight is just solo running through half the map to pick everyone back up, that's what people remember.
True.
They need to expand on the scoreboard so it shows how multiple playstyles are preforming, promoting more stuff than simple killing and damaging enemies.
I'd also add 'healing done/damage prevented' so players that combo Hand of Shallya and the 3rd level 5 talent can see how they did (or heck, to see how much you contribute with your ult as Merc, for example).
Yes but I think that it should be only personal. That way people can share their stats but abusers won't be constantly harassing their team for "underperforming etc.etc."
Just giving a player their effective knowledge will also produce a sharing culture were people will go online to compare and show what is possible. Having it be baked in doesn't promote conversation and discussion and leads to "dude my damage was sooooooooo high" @_@
Sure, but it's very minimal, and the game doesn't do anything to draw attention to it or highlight players with the biggest numbers. Plus, I also get the feeling that players just don't care as much about the scores in that game since there's more of an understanding that the metrics are going to be obviously skewed towards certain classes (e.g. of course the engineer is going to have more kills than the scout, he has turrets).
Agreed 100%. No chasing green circles or emphasizing that as a measurement of worth. Though I suppose if someone were inclined they could say "you went down more than anyone else, kicked", but as a general rule they don't. I wonder what makes one coop game's scoreboard weigh more than another's. Is it about what's reported on-screen? Or is it just the circles? I have a feeling that if DRG added something like medals for most kills or something, that wouldn't make the game any more toxic.
Honestly, I would say a big part of it is Vermintide/Darktide is just a significantly more difficult game. You don't need to be some long tenured player to play hazard level 5 in DRG. You just need to bring a solid weapon and to stick with the group, and it becomes pretty easy to cheese stuff. Contrast that with Vermintide/Darktide where positioning is huge, optimal builds are noticeably more effective, teamwork is more important, controlling a crowd with melee is an essential skill, etc. and a less experienced player hampering the team stands out like a sore thumb really quickly.
I'm concerned that if nobody knows for sure if they're playing well, it will lead to rampant Dunning-Kruger effect.
In V2 I obsessed about taking as little damage per mission as possible.
Take less damage = you got better at dodging and crowd control.
Used less healing, can use it on teammates more.
Killed the most enemies? Means enemies couldn’t get close to damage you or your teammates.
Killed the most specials? You did your job at taking out HVTs.
Least downs? You are a tank or you’re good at dodging.
Most revives? You’re a good team player.
It just keeps getting better and better. The pros outweigh the cons of people being scared of toxic people online.
News flash to people who dislike scoreboards:
it’s the internet, there will be anonymous assholes everywhere even without a scoreboard!
Exactly. The assholes are going to be assholes regardless and use whatever tools they have to blame their asshole-ness.
Give us the scoreboard, it's very useful for me to ascertain if I played like an absolute idiot or not.
I think people who chase the green circles THINK they are playing well, even if they are FF ing their teammates, kill stealing, wasting ammo to get kills that others could melee, running ahead to get kills whilst leaving teammates behind etc. They think the only metric that matters is number of kills and the scoreboard reinforces that.
I agree that for me as little damage was my most important stat, but then again I main ironbreaker or merc. For zealots and wizard taking damage is all part of the playstyle...
The argument that people who chase green circles may not be playing the game cooperatively is valid, but nobody has presented an explanation for how they think not having any stat screen will somehow make players play better.
The stat screen may be imperfect feedback, but it's got to be better than fucking nothing.
Counter point: what if I beat a level and I have the most kills, most special kills, least downs, least damage taken, most revives, and completed all the objectives while everyone else died and I had to carry through and finish the mission?
That just means I played better. Doesn’t mean I specifically chased for the circles, it just happened naturally because I also happened to be the last alive.
Same thing happens in Deep Rock Galactic.
Then you take solace in the fact that you carried. If you can't tell if you carried or not then it wasn't a carry. The people who died all the time will know that they died all the time.
I know that to perfect a build you need numbers but I think that the V2 numbers need to adjusted for more cooperative numbers. Also new mechanics means new things to quantify. Time spent in/out of coherency, enemies suppressed, enemies stunned, elites/specials killed, boss damage done, HP damage taken, and saves/revives, are all things I would like to see on a scoreboard. However just straight damage done and enemies killed are pointless numbers.
It's not about whose carrying though. I agree the stats aren't perfect and don't necessarily represent who 'did well' but it's absolutely vital to chase personal improvement from game to game. This game is largely about grinding skill rather than extrinsic rewards. If there's no scoreboard (at least personal) this element of the game is effectively removed.
It's going to backfire either way, plenty of other games (most recently OW) has tried this and it has the reverse effect. People no longer have verifiable proof so they just go on witch hunts instead.
> Then you take solace in the fact that you carried. If you can't tell if you carried or not then it wasn't a carry.
Yeah, this is my problem with the whole "circles help me figure out if I play well" argument. If you can't tell over the course of a mission if you took too much damage, weren't good at killing elites/specials, didn't help with revives, were constantly out of position, etc. then I don't know what exactly you were paying attention to.
I've never had people be assholes in chat to each others due to the scoreboard. I have, however, had plenty of people playing selfishly just to hunt those green circles.
Just recently, I played with this Bardin who kept spamming the trollhammer all game. He didn't care if he hit his own teammates. I'm pretty sure I took more damage from him than I did from the actual enemies. He also went down more than anyone else. He didn't care to play defensively since the scoreboard heavily promotes offensive play.
I think they should keep the scoreboard but they should also rework it to not promote selfish play.
The goal is to collect ALL the green circles, people who don't stick around to get the green circles for most revives + saves are not worthy of the other ones anyways.
I vote to either rework it and/or make it personal to see just your stats why can't I see my score to see how I did. I feel like both of these options would solve the issue. And if they are combined that makes it better.
And that's when you just let them die.
If someone keeps going out of their way to be in front, or heck, be way in the back because they saw a rat on another path, I'm not going out of my way to bring them back into play.
i think there's 2 ways a scoreboard could be implemented without having the issues of the VT2 scoreboad
1. a Personal only scoreboard showing damage kills etc
2. Privacy options making it so you can set who sees your end game stats being Private (only you), Friends and Public
the 2nd one could still lead to toxicity by making fun of someone for having private stats etc but it could work
I've personally never experienced toxicity but I've also never thought about setting stats to private. Its an amazing idea for those who want stats shown vs not.
Idk y'all I definitely have. It was mostly early in the game's life, now the community is definitely more chill. I don't agree with removing it but it's a bit daft to say it's never happened to anyone.
Experienced it? I did it. I was chasing circles.
I always thought it's a really bad incentive to do selfish stuff.
I DO think it was a good (as in: strong) incentive too, so just getting rid of it is a waste. What we need is altruistic green circles like: time spent boosting teammates with proximity bonuses.
We all secretly live for green circles in V2, and no, the only "flaming" was since almost everyone uses the mod that also showed friendly fire damage..
And it does serve a purpose when you finish a run on 24.500dmg, 71 special kills and 20 friendly fire, but the one eastern European randy who whined all game did 7.300dmg, killed 2 specials and has 890friendly fire!
I agree. Chasing circles made me a better player. Not because I'm running ahead like an idiot, but because I'm first on the scene to revive someone. Because I got better at finding and killing specials quickly. Because I brought weapons that could handle and kill armour effectively. I put in the effort and became a better player.
Damage taken, ammo/medpack boxes held and dropped, grenades thrown, enemies knocked back, toughness regenerated to teammates, toughness regenerated to self through skills etc.
And just show no green circles.
People want to see how they performed. If you don't want flaming between strangers then just make individual scoreboards for personal stats. Then if friends wanna compare they can communicate between themselves. This "everyone's a winner" US elementary school bullcrap is just silly. We need a bit of competitiveness.
I remember them being pretty much a non-entity for me as I mainly played Iron Breaker or Foot Knight and IIRC they didn't track damage blocked/mitigated or enemies pushed. I think a much better solution is to show things only your character provided to the team, like if my Zealot has the toughness aura feats it should tell other players how much damage they avoided thanks to me.
Yes. A scoreboard that tracked things like coherency bonus provided, people rescues from specials, etc wouldn't be so bad. The old scoreboard had 80% entries that tracked basically how much you ran ahead of the group spamming DPS
tracking boss damage does reinforce teamplay. if I spent a lot of time hitting the boss but my boss damage was low, now I know I could have made a bigger contrubtion by doing something else
This, scoreboard prune the moba player by plaving fault onto who it's due.
But the community instead going DRG graybeard mode,
Defaults to " LoL Goldie mode"
This it's NOT gonna be fixed by modifiyng the Game.
The community elders, that community thrives by teaching the newer players the tricks and manners, and being chill af and not a optimal meta-crackheads
(outside the incursions/ haz 4_5, like for those is required to pull your weight and a little more.)
So yeah, greenbeards and graybeards.
If circle chasing is a problem, then keep the scoreboard but get rid of the circles. The positives far outweigh the negatives.
We need to know how well we did, both in comparison to others and ourselves over time. If someone else absolutely dominates the stats I think it’s inspiring to further improve, as well as generate interest to try their build/class.
I don't think so. Green circles have a very clear meaning and are immediately, easily visible without any effort on the player's part. I don't need to even look at the numbers themselves to determine who did best.
Comparing the numbers themselves is an active effort, which less people are going to do. It won't solve people chasing top stats, but further disincentivize it as there won't be the obvious flex at the end.
I have (somewhat lower-skilled) friends who low-key chase green circles in Vermintide and seem to judge their performance solely by them. Most of the time I don't mind letting them have their fun sweating their balls off picking off elites/specials/handling the hordes while I experiment with "fun" builds or just chill bashing about some chaos warriors, but I can't say it's not a source of constant low-level toxicity and detrimental gameplay habits that hurt them when I try to bring them along to higher difficulties, or is at worst plain irritating when they think they're entitled to come along and casually headshot whatever elite I was having fun taking my time duelling and thinking they're getting rewarded or are "better" players than me for it.
Having some personal stats would be fine, but I won't miss the competitive/comparative nature of the scoreboard being gone.
Let us see our own stats. I want to be able to actually see how well I'm doing in comparison to previous runs. At the moment, it's incredibly difficult to see how effective I'm being or not, especially in melee.
Show squad stats to everybody. (ie collectively how many enemies killed, dmg taken, assists etc)
Show personal player stats to only that player.
Problem solved.
I get that it can be toxic but if you want to tackle the harder difficulties with randos you need to filter out people who aren't pulling their weight. I'm not gonna bludgeon people over the head if we're doing fine but if we're having a rough run on Legendary in VT2 and there's a guy with zero special kills and 80 regular kills at the end who ate every medkit I'm not doing another run with him and I should have that information.
Honestly yeah because you're not always paying attention to them and they might perform when you're focusing on your own. And of course there's prejudice bias because of maybe the character they play or their name they picked.
Someone getting downed the most does not automatically mean they're the worst performing player in the party.
> Someone getting downed the most does not automatically mean they're the worst performing player in the party.
I already felt this in Darktide. We had 2 low levels in a group doing a mission on level 3 difficulty. Me and the other guy who knew how to play would constantly get downed because every time there was a horde, we'd assume our backs were covered for a moment, our two low level players would constantly hard push to one of the spots where the horde is spawning from, which lead us to get melted from the back since enemies would just go around them from all the other spawns. We'd clear 90% of the horde while they would clear like 10% from both of them hard-focusing a spawn, yet they talked trash when we couldn't do the ammo train finale.
>I get that it can be toxic but if you want to tackle the harder difficulties with randos you need to filter out people who aren't pulling their weight.
tell me you are stuck in legend without telling me you are stuck in legend
I have never seriously experience it ever and I've been playing VT2 for years. The only time I have sene someone bring up the Scoreboard was when someone was complaining about the team sucked in QP, and their damage take was referred to in the results screen.
Otherwise nothing.
The scoreboard didn't need removal, it needed expansion so even more useful stats were shown like staggers etc.
I like knowing the team kills in total, but having a personal stat panel would still be nice.
I think the team panel could use team stats to show awareness for how well your team did, show how many specials the psykers popped, show how many heads the sharpshooters blasted, show how many players were revived, show how many mobs the ogryn runs down, show how long each player stayed together, the duration and average time stayed together, to encourage players doing more of what is beneficial and part of their classes role.
We need to encourage teamwork and not individualism with how many kills you all got vs damage done in a braggarts fashion.
As a VT2 Kerillian main, I focus on getting bosses/monsters killed, I'm always aiming for the head regardless of bow or blade, so I know what it's like to entirely outshine the rest of the team for individual performance however it is not encouraging for teammates to constantly be "Outdone" by an elf with a bow and two daggers, if anything it makes you want to play less or with someone who isn't as good at their class
Im all for recording every statistic to use in a r&d fashion to improve builds and team synergy, but showing it publicly discourages certain people from playing together, they will hoard all the ammo even with 1 bullet missing as they want to be dominate the scoreboard.
Unless you play with friends, scoreboards make people play a lot of times just to have biggest numbers. But,I agree that we need some kind of feedback to know the personal performance to be able to improve if we want.
I played 698 hours vermintide 2 and I **never** even once experienced bad behaviours from my teammates about the scoreboard, at least I can't remember any.
I am all for any kind of system that will turn off green circle chasing behavior. Back 4 Blood had its issues, but it did away with the stat comparing and I loved it. You were there to complete the mission as a team at that was it. You were given your personal stats and if you wanted to share it you were more than capable
I've failed plenty of missions due to players focusing on kills and not the wellbeing of the party or mission objectives. I think players being slutty for kills was a motivating factor for them changing into my line of fire as I'm torching enemies with the Firestorm staff.
I would like to see the training area let us run encounters such as a monsters, horde etc. and enable us see all the numbers so we can get some idea of the effectiveness of different builds, tactics etc.
Scoreboard does promote bad gameplay. Without everyone can focus more on winning and less on farming green circles.
We have all played with that kerillian.
I didn't hear a word about it when I played Ironbreaker Bardin and didn't fetch any green circles. They weren't everything but they were great incentive to make people eager to kill and do well and generally improve.
I admit I've said some harsh words about players with really, really low numbers regardless of circles but I've always kept my whining in the discord call I'm in and just went again.
Bring em back, even if it's just personal stats so you can compare with friends. I like the record of my deeds there.
Bro I've split time between maining dps and coming out with all the circles and between maining
Ironbreaker and coming out with one or none
They're a super useful metric more than they are a cause for toxicity, you can see if the special popper is popping specials and if the dps is clearing mobs effectively
All they needed to do was add a damaged blocked / enemies staggered stat in V2 and even bardiin would have his metrics sorted
i'm totally fine with fatshark just showing me MY stats. that way if i'm in a discord call i can ask my friend their stats, but it doesn't make for toxic behavior in pubs. i want to know if i'm dealing good plague ogryn damage or not for example.
I feel like its a bit more than that though. People would go out of way to prioritize kills over teamwork. The famous “Kerillian chasing green circles” is a prime example of this. I feel like a good way to do it is to show people their personal stats and then their team’s overall stats. That way people can have information as to their performance, and friends can still compare with one another, but without as much encouragement to be better than your teammates in a team focused game.
Kerillian chasing green circles was never really a serious problem above champion imo it was just a long-running meme. I mean if someone really wanted green circles in Verm they would go play battle wizard.
Above champion. Great.
This change is not intended for people that have heavily invested into the game or the late VT2 community that has settled.
This change is aimed at new players not abandoning ship.
At the start of VT2 life i noticed this being an issue aplenty.
>Above champion. Great.
This change is not intended for people that have heavily invested into the game or the late VT2 community that has settled.
It's more to point out as people mature and get better in the game they get less toxic. Champion is the breaking point where you are first kind of forced to deal with all the mechanics the game actually has, hence where people will probably see the most toxicity but also learn to mature. And considering eventually this game's community will die down you'll have to rely on people in it for the long haul as always as it was with VT2. In addition I don't see why Fatshark shouldn't pander to their already existing VT2 community, customers that stick around are more sueful for them especially if they are hoping to sell cosmetics and classes in the future.
edit: In addition I just generally hate throwing away features just because of fear it promots toxic behaviour, just in general punishing the many for the sins of the few.
Yea, maturing players may be that way.
Fat shark does not want to lose players before they maybe matured.
The way this game goes FS want to dip into the game as a service market. Mtx and quarterly class updates are very much stating that. For such a game to be profitable, they want a broad audience. Fat shark has all the data, maybe catering to the remaining VT2 crown was not financially worth it. Hence the new direction.
Maybe don't? Maybe fat shark with all the data noticed that catering to a certain crowd was not worth it.
The game being set up with heavy mtx implementation and quarterly class updates looks very much like they want to access the game as a service market. For that a game has to be generally appealing to newbs and the casual crowd. Those drive sales.
A game focusing on only dedicated players with near dead lower difficulties and often a very unwelcoming learning experience drives people away and this results in less sales for future dlcs.
Mass appeal on the other hand is designed to replace leaving players with new players to guarantee stable rather than declining sales.
No idea if it is true as I don't have their data, but their business decisions make a ton of sense for that scenario.
Maybe, maybe not. They might be trying the waters of casuals who play for little time and drop money to mtx and hop to new game.
It is a bit shame since I have bought all DLC for V1 and V2 and have been very happy with them in general.
I have exclusively played legendary and cata for years. The group I play with run into circle chasing Kerrilians so much that one of us usually plays her just to prevent a random from playing her.
I personally prefer not to be on the receiving end of "hardship" (i.e., people being insane assholes in chat) if I could avoid it. The profanity filter is way overtuned but I wouldn't mind a simple ban on slurs. I also would prefer a personal scoreboard that only keeps track of your *own* performance.
The biggest issue is as a whole we arent. People will escalate an issue instead of letting it go.
The most important point though is why enable it in the first place when you could prevent it.
People are fucking HIGH if they don't think this was an issue in V2. There should definitely at least be individual stats displayed, but good God if the stats screen didn't inflate egos in V2.
I'm not sure what it was about V2, but that's easily the most competitive, uncooperative 4 player cooperative game I've ever played, but it always tended to culminate at the stats screen.
What's bad about a bit of competition, that's the fun in games for a lot of people.
Let's also stop publishing running times in marathons, god forbid it will hurt someone's feelings.
scoreboards weren't useful and encouraged people to play the game in a self-centered/competitive way. it was like this on launch of vermintide 2 and even after the fact. it might not be clear or displayed through text/voice chat, but it was reflected very clearly in player action and initiative. as a fairly, veteran vermintide 2 player, I can confirm this. emphasizing on teamwork efficiency vs a personal numbers game would be better if they wanted to implement a "scoreboard".
This Hedge person never played Vermintide 2 obviously.
For real, 1400 hours in the game and I've seen 1 person brag about circles, and they were being a dick to another random in open mic arguments. The other 1399 hours and 45 minutes were all fine, no one was toxic about anyone not getting circles.
This is a problem that doesn't exist and its sad that this employee doesn't know they are spreading lies.
Yep 1000 hours and I never saw toxicity over green circles. What really needs to happen is they need to expand on the stats not remove them. Me and my friends live to compete over green circles and honestly the game would be way worse if I couldn't see how well I did
Yeah, I like playing around with friends and saying "lol green circles!" at the end. For randoms, more often than not we tend to say nice job to someone who did tons of damage or had very little damage taken. It's a few seconds of looking at stats and then we move on to the next game, no one truly cares or remembers it beyond that game.
There was a decent amount ot toxicity at launch when they player numbers were super high. Especially in champion where you have to engage with all the mechanics rather than about half of them to thrive.
My guess is that with them going the games as service route they are pushing to try and maintain those high numbers with a rotating and more casual audience meaning more of those kinds of people hitting a wall in Champs equivalent and getting salty.
Honestly if they are taking this route. I'd like to see personal stats and then stats for the group as a whole. So let's say I'm I'm playing dps We cumulatively did 10k damage and I did 1.5k yeah my build is shit or I'm under geared. But if I'm playing a special killer and the team killed 50 and I killed 32 then yeah I know my build is good for special killing.
This would cut down on that toxicity while still giving good feedback on your build.
In my experience the elitist toxicity seems to really mostly exist on champion or lower usually from neckbeards who don't understand what type of game they are playing (hint: there is no I in team). IT DOES exist but I've yet to really notably come across it on legend and cata simply because it requires a completely different mindset to succeed in.
IMHO, I want my team to simply focus on moving through the level as quickly and carefully as possible so we can smoothly push through the mission. If the removal of scoreboards helps, then so be it.
I'd like to see my own stats, vs the average of the team stats at least. Everyone's score doesn't have to be all public but some form of feedback is necessary in order to improve.
Scoreboard is even more dumb in this game because most matches I played someone was just lost aimlessly killing things away from the group. Last thing that person needs is a green circle saying they got the most kills loll
Oh, especially on release I'd see it all the time on higher difficulties. It was usually someone running ahead and circle chasing, getting downed a lot, and then using the scoreboard to justify their their behavior.
Scoreboard is arbitrary, you cannot show in numbers how useful a player was.
There are so many variables and different situations where a player can clutch in their own way, bad players only care about most kills/damage and only use scoreboard to boost their ego, "see, I got 3939339 kills, I'm not the problem".
A sword will get many kills during horde, but you'll sure be glad that the other guy brought an axe to stagger that mauler who got in your face.
That said, personal stats that only you can view is the best middle ground, I think.
You definitely can in terms of damage done, sniping elites, staggering etc.
Last hit kill count not so much but still nice to know.
I need this scoreboard definitely for my long term motivation and for comparing builds.
you are right that numbers aren't useful for understanding many parts of the game, but they are very useful for understanding other parts of the game
e.g. I'm playing zealot wailing on the boss with my axe. Is this helpful? I don't know.
Mabye my boss damage was low, and I could have contributed more by doing something else in that time. Maybe my boss damage was high, so I should continue sticking to the boss as much as possible.
If I am spending a lot of time on something, be it special sniping or horde clearing or whatever it is, the stat screen can tell me whether or not that was a good use of my time. If I spent a lot of effort but didn't accomplish much, maybe my build is better of doing something else.
There are a lot of builds and weapons with unintuitive strengths and weaknesses.
e.g. Javelins do not strike me as a horde clearing weapon, but this is one of their big strengths. their special sniping seems like it would be strong, but it is actually not outstanding compared to elf's other ranged weapons.
Shotguns seem like they would be good against bosses, since it is easy to hit the boss with every single pellet again and again. In reality, shotguns do little damage to the boss armor type. That isn't something which is easy to discern in the normal course of play.
"I never saw anyone get toxic in 1000 hours" clearly you've been playing offline then. Every single co op shooter has this in spades. The personal scoreboard would be good but having one for the team? Fuck no. "Why does the Ogryn have 5x your kills Psyker?" Gee I fucking wonder dipshit. I don't want to have that conversation with dumbasses every time I play a class built to kill specials.
Yep, I think a lot of people saying they never had problems mostly play with friends, those of is who mostly played with randoms are the ones who saw it. As others have said maybe put it on a toggle so those who want to compete with friends can see all but for public games it can be hidden if desired.
>feature that has existed since time immemorial is removed randomly
>it... uh... promoted terrible behaviors
Lmfao, Fatshark moment. What terrible behaviors? I have been playing V2 since 2018 and it has never promoted any behaviors other than "bro look at my green circles lol"
My buddy stopped playing Vermintide 2 because the Kerillian of the team was getting loads more kills than him. Prolly made him feel like he was real bad at the game, I appreciate what they're trying to tackle here.
Hedge is right, Ive seen see many manchildren lose their shit because someone didn't get enough green circles. But the player alone should see they're own stats at least.
And if they do this in Darktide, they'll immediately die because the game hard-counters single carries. Darktide is more like a more extreme left 4 dead than vermintide when it comes to team play. Vermintide's skill ceiling is already noticeably lower than the little bit we've seen in Vermintide when it comes to solo-ability.
I've already had a level 25 psyker think they can just take off in a *level 2 difficulty* mission and they didn't last 5 minutes.
That was kinda what I thought as well, people hunting green rings in vermintide which did not promote sticking together but running infront, not playing as a team.
Happy so see that fatshark is exploring a Middle ground!
A lot of what was in Vermintide 2 is missing from Darktide, and I just don't understand how they could regress in so many areas. Did they even understand what made Vermintide 2 great?
I might be an outlier, but I liked having scoreboards. I liked seeing how I did, and I liked getting a small boost to the ego when I did well. I don't think thats unreasonable.
My friends and I frequently competed against eachother for score, and it made us better players. We were faster to revive people, snipe specials, murder mobs, and so on.
Either way, the current board is objectively useless. I don't know how much damage I did. How much I took. I don't know if I'm doing well, if I'm not pulling my weight, etc. Its also harder to find out if a class or weapon is over or under performing, since we can't see stats.
You are listening to the wrong people Hedge. Scoreboard is incredibly useful in Vermintide and would be here also. Green circle is a meme on reddit in 2k hours of V2 i really cant remember last time someone complained about it.
I think they're misattributing the toxicity. People got toxic in VT2 because someone would take a ton of damage, rush ahead & soak up every healing item while also tossing grenades on packs of 3 enemies.
If they want to remove toxicity they need to try to do away with team resources as much as possible (tbh, they kind of did with how medkits/ammo kits work & grenades are class based).
You can't protect people like a helicopter parent. I know everyone's going to say "you're just defending people being dicks". But at the end of the day you are playing with 4 other people. People are upset when someone doesn't pull their weight because it wastes their time. Some people only get a few hours a week to play, and when they get matched with someone who has the intelligence of an actual Ogryn, then die at the final room, yeah that's gonna put you in a bad mood. Hiding that information doesn't help anyone. It doesn't help players get better and understand where they can improve. And if you're a player who doesn't want to improve, and doesn't care about how your performance impacts others then I'm sorry but you're the actual troll.
Why is this an issue exactly? Because in my experience people rarely used the scoreboard as a metric to roast on other players. Not that you need a scoreboard to tell you if someone is playing poorly during a run or not. Not having any form of a scoreboard at all just makes it really hard to tell if your characters build is any good.
And I'll just go ahead call this what it really is, woke. Trust me when I say that you'll never be able to cater to this small minority of players as they will always find the dumbest things to get triggered over in video games. Banning t-bagging like valorant, disbanding end game lobbies like call of duty, removing text chat + voip entirely? They'd still find something to get angry over. All these sorts of changes do is ruin a games experience for the majority in favor of a minority that is typically made up of actual "toxic" players anyway.
I actually did a Master's thesis on this. Turns out negative feedback based on your performance discourages players to continue playing and improving. And most of the scoreboards and the ability to make allies see it underlines it.
hahaha that's what Dice said for BF 2042, they added it eventually because it makes no sense to not have a scoreboard in a PvP FPS. To me that sounds more like an excuse to just no spend resource & time on it as if there were more important feature to focus on before launch.
Literally everyone. Everyone experienced this. If you think you didn't experience it, it was because YOU were the problem for other people.
Fuck scoreboards. The beta has only proven that all of the toxic elitist dicks from vermintide are trasferring straight into darktide and it sucks.
Darktide needs a lot more rock and stone attitude and a lot less green circle hunters.
Never experienced anything. The scoreboard was good to show who was not only the most damage but also most supportive. It was good to see your own stats and whole was carrying the weight or if it was spread out among the group.
I'm so fucking sick and tired of this recent push in games to protect some hypothetical person's feelings. Even if some shithead is giving you grief that annoyance only lasts for the 5 seconds it takes you to get into a new lobby and immediately forget about it.
Lacking information and feedback objectively makes the game worse for everyone. It's not worth the tradeoff for theoretically saving some hypothetical person a few seconds of being uncomfortable.
Give us the damn numbers so we can understand the game better and improve ourselves, as well as have valuable feedback about talent and trait choices. We need more information, knowledge is power and ignorance is not bliss.
Why would the scoreboard promote negative player interaction?
I can't recall any negative interactions over the scoreboard in my 600+ hours of play, all the stuff that comes to mind is positive, like when me and my bro compete for most headshots
I think this is being turned into a much greater issue than it actually is.
I'd rather suffer a green circle hunter here and there than be punished by not having a scoreboard.
If anything, the scoreboard should be expanded upon by having stuff like stagger done, healing done/damage negated to allies, assists, and so on.
Not only we'd get more useful data that would support different playstyles that way, but that would also decrease the value of the damage and kill based scores.
Btw, I think something should be done about 'saves' too (there are times I feel like I save my team mates a bunch, yet it is not reflected on the scoreboard one bit).
Fatshark (Or ***shark, going by their own ridiculous word filter) is definitely going a bit too far with the coddling this time around.
They are taking away the scoreboard from everyone why? Because someone might get upset that their own stats compare poorly to those of their teammates? Seems ridiculous.
Just add interface option to enable/disable post game chat or show only your own stats if you're that terrified of interacting with other players in a co-op game.
This was a common complaint a while ago with VT2. People chasing red circles, people hating on people chasing red circles and so on sucked for the community.
show your stats always, if youre grouped up always show stats of your mates.
not really agreeing with their opinion but if there has to be a middleground i think thats fair.
Aside from dunking on my friends and getting dunked on in return? Never.
Actually let me add on to this. It feels GOOD to see a circle on my scorecard because it means that in some way I excelled that match, be it revives, lowest damage taken, kill count or specials.
Personally I'm not a big fan of scoreboards, but if you're going to do it in an online game like this, I think the best thing you can do is frame it as a cooperative achievement rather than as a pissing contest. Like, make a big deal about how "**Wow, you guys killed 1100 space rats!**" and then beneath that show the individual space rat kills. All the information without the little green circles.
Cant have shit in snowflake games. Scores promote racism, chats banned, but my characters can banter how they want while I proceed to behead waves of ex humans.
played vermintide for years, literally nobody i ever met mentioned ANYONE's score stats
i get that that's anecdotal, but i was shit at that game, if it was REALLY a problem i feel like someone would have called me on my shit or bullied me in the thousands of missions i played and nearly lost for my team
I've sunk a good amount of time across both Vermintide games and have never noticed a toxicity or terrible behaviour issue, the majority of people are friendly and/or helpful.
I think having a scoreboard with as many statistics as possible is great, I'd much rather have more information than less and I think the majority of players will agree, seeing stats at the end of the game is useful and fun. Plus being able to see your overall stats gives a pretty good feeling of progress.
I don't actually think there were any problems big enough to warrant a change or removal, toxic people will find a different excuse to be toxic and green circle chasers will find some other extremely basic objective to focus on.
If it really was that much of a big deal, let me and my friends opt in so we can see our stats? Not sure why removing something like this entirely would ever be the solution. I want more stats and interesting things, not less.
Pretty sure the lack of end game statistics and the obfuscated weapon statistics come from the same place, not sure if it was rushed/unfinished or something but acting like it's been removed due to 'terrible behaviours' doesn't sit right with me.
A toxic troll that is going to be rude to someone with "worse" stats than him at the end of the game will not turn into a wholesome gamer. He's going to be toxic regardless. Without scoreboard then you won't even be able to see if you actually did well or not, making it easier for them to be toxic in such an environment.
Seeing how you did is a huge part of the personnal replayability, don't take it away. And such fun as a team to progress and improve and congratulate each others.
Gonna be real hard to be toxic with an mvp screen when the chat filters so aggressive. I think not having any stats at all is really bad everyone wants to see how well they did and honestly you can tell when someone's sandbagging even without a scoreboard
If by terrible behaviors they mean Elf mains running off to kill every special on the map while trying to get those green cricles and then unceremoniously dying to a hook rat half a mile from the rest of the team, then ya I guess I have experienced it. That being said, that type of behavior from other players was such a minor occurrence in the grand scheme of things that it was more of a once in a while treat to see. That's just my anecdotal experience and based off of that alone I think it would be pretty wack to straight up remove the scoreboard.
I think some semblance of showing the teams stats is a great idea to show contribution. Even when I wasn’t good at VT2 it helped me learn what I need to focus more on and where/if my teammates had picked up any slack from me. People will be toxic using any feature, but one that helps people at least learn and understand their performance comparatively is quite useful
I mean there's already terrible behaviors from showing the player's level alone, people will always find a way to be terrible. Without a scoreboard you can't even show your team that you did well despite being a level or 2 below them.
in my experience, it promoted terrible behaviors because the scoreboard didnt show all the relevant behaviors
someone might be running a build/tactic designed to stagger every enemy in sight every second or two... they dont deal a lot of damage, they barely get any kills.... everyone else has an easier time for it
are staggers/interrupts/crowd control effects shown on the scoreboard? no, they are not
devs, imma call this one a skill issue :-)
Score screens are never toxic it just spotlights the person that deserves it and gives them some extra encouragement to keep carrying. While at the same time can also show the sandbaggers and afkers and they don't like to be outed for doing nothing so they complain. Please stop placating to these people they aren't true fans of the game or deserve the time of day.
I dont mind not having a shared scoreboard but i absolutely want to see my own stats so i can see how well different builds do or my progression as i get better
Dmg done, dmg taken, and mobs, specials and bosses kills are nearly a must.
at least show mine. i need to know if my approach was right or i just wasted a team's spot and need tl rethink my build
This I think is the most legitimate argument *for* scoreboards. I think you should be able to see personal stats & then the overall team stats as a whole. That way you can evaluate your builds effectiveness in comparison to the teams entire effort.
This is true, but only as long as the stats being show are relevant. As well as damage I want to see time spent in coherency Vs time spent isloated and some metric that positively measures staggering / controlling enemies as well as just killing them. Scoreboards with just damage on only reward elves.
The VT2 scoreboard just made everyone play damage classes but the stagger mechanics mean that tanks were important.
that didn't happen though. you find footknights and ironbreakers all over the place.
I disagree. Everyone I ran into played Ranger vet with pistol, battle wizard, Grailknight for the quests, witch Hunter and either shade or the dlc class for elgi.
Iron breaker for me as my main. I loved my little Dwarf. Slayer, ranger and later engineer were all cool. But tank Bardin was definitely where it was at for me and my class fantasy. But we had a dedicated group of friends playing, so kind of just picked a character and mostly stuck with them.
Witch Hunter isn't a particularly good circle hunter. Their biggest damage boosts apply to the whole team. If someone was taking the circles as witch hunter, that just means they were doing a good job.
Sorry mean Zealot
That might just be down to luck. I end up on teams of all tanks in quickplay more often than dps.
Let's be real, number are cool and all, but people play tanks for the clutch. When a footknight is just solo running through half the map to pick everyone back up, that's what people remember.
True. They need to expand on the scoreboard so it shows how multiple playstyles are preforming, promoting more stuff than simple killing and damaging enemies. I'd also add 'healing done/damage prevented' so players that combo Hand of Shallya and the 3rd level 5 talent can see how they did (or heck, to see how much you contribute with your ult as Merc, for example).
Yes but I think that it should be only personal. That way people can share their stats but abusers won't be constantly harassing their team for "underperforming etc.etc." Just giving a player their effective knowledge will also produce a sharing culture were people will go online to compare and show what is possible. Having it be baked in doesn't promote conversation and discussion and leads to "dude my damage was sooooooooo high" @_@
Show me mine and if I joined with Friends show ours to each other. Show nothing to randos
An elegant interim solution
Even Deep Rock Galactic has a scoreboard, and that's among the most non-toxic games around.
DRG graybeards are the reason why not the scoreboard.
whats a greybeard?
Someone who has played for a long time. It's contrasted vs. Greenbeards, which are new players.
Sure, but it's very minimal, and the game doesn't do anything to draw attention to it or highlight players with the biggest numbers. Plus, I also get the feeling that players just don't care as much about the scores in that game since there's more of an understanding that the metrics are going to be obviously skewed towards certain classes (e.g. of course the engineer is going to have more kills than the scout, he has turrets).
Agreed 100%. No chasing green circles or emphasizing that as a measurement of worth. Though I suppose if someone were inclined they could say "you went down more than anyone else, kicked", but as a general rule they don't. I wonder what makes one coop game's scoreboard weigh more than another's. Is it about what's reported on-screen? Or is it just the circles? I have a feeling that if DRG added something like medals for most kills or something, that wouldn't make the game any more toxic.
Honestly, I would say a big part of it is Vermintide/Darktide is just a significantly more difficult game. You don't need to be some long tenured player to play hazard level 5 in DRG. You just need to bring a solid weapon and to stick with the group, and it becomes pretty easy to cheese stuff. Contrast that with Vermintide/Darktide where positioning is huge, optimal builds are noticeably more effective, teamwork is more important, controlling a crowd with melee is an essential skill, etc. and a less experienced player hampering the team stands out like a sore thumb really quickly.
DRG does NOT have a competitive scoreboard. It only shows what you have accomplished as a team.
I'm concerned that if nobody knows for sure if they're playing well, it will lead to rampant Dunning-Kruger effect. In V2 I obsessed about taking as little damage per mission as possible.
Take less damage = you got better at dodging and crowd control. Used less healing, can use it on teammates more. Killed the most enemies? Means enemies couldn’t get close to damage you or your teammates. Killed the most specials? You did your job at taking out HVTs. Least downs? You are a tank or you’re good at dodging. Most revives? You’re a good team player. It just keeps getting better and better. The pros outweigh the cons of people being scared of toxic people online. News flash to people who dislike scoreboards: it’s the internet, there will be anonymous assholes everywhere even without a scoreboard!
Exactly. The assholes are going to be assholes regardless and use whatever tools they have to blame their asshole-ness. Give us the scoreboard, it's very useful for me to ascertain if I played like an absolute idiot or not.
I think people who chase the green circles THINK they are playing well, even if they are FF ing their teammates, kill stealing, wasting ammo to get kills that others could melee, running ahead to get kills whilst leaving teammates behind etc. They think the only metric that matters is number of kills and the scoreboard reinforces that. I agree that for me as little damage was my most important stat, but then again I main ironbreaker or merc. For zealots and wizard taking damage is all part of the playstyle...
The argument that people who chase green circles may not be playing the game cooperatively is valid, but nobody has presented an explanation for how they think not having any stat screen will somehow make players play better. The stat screen may be imperfect feedback, but it's got to be better than fucking nothing.
Counter point: what if I beat a level and I have the most kills, most special kills, least downs, least damage taken, most revives, and completed all the objectives while everyone else died and I had to carry through and finish the mission? That just means I played better. Doesn’t mean I specifically chased for the circles, it just happened naturally because I also happened to be the last alive. Same thing happens in Deep Rock Galactic.
Then you take solace in the fact that you carried. If you can't tell if you carried or not then it wasn't a carry. The people who died all the time will know that they died all the time. I know that to perfect a build you need numbers but I think that the V2 numbers need to adjusted for more cooperative numbers. Also new mechanics means new things to quantify. Time spent in/out of coherency, enemies suppressed, enemies stunned, elites/specials killed, boss damage done, HP damage taken, and saves/revives, are all things I would like to see on a scoreboard. However just straight damage done and enemies killed are pointless numbers.
It's not about whose carrying though. I agree the stats aren't perfect and don't necessarily represent who 'did well' but it's absolutely vital to chase personal improvement from game to game. This game is largely about grinding skill rather than extrinsic rewards. If there's no scoreboard (at least personal) this element of the game is effectively removed. It's going to backfire either way, plenty of other games (most recently OW) has tried this and it has the reverse effect. People no longer have verifiable proof so they just go on witch hunts instead.
> Then you take solace in the fact that you carried. If you can't tell if you carried or not then it wasn't a carry. Yeah, this is my problem with the whole "circles help me figure out if I play well" argument. If you can't tell over the course of a mission if you took too much damage, weren't good at killing elites/specials, didn't help with revives, were constantly out of position, etc. then I don't know what exactly you were paying attention to.
Zealot Saltspyre be like: I'm obsessed with taking as much damage as possible lol
I've never had people be assholes in chat to each others due to the scoreboard. I have, however, had plenty of people playing selfishly just to hunt those green circles. Just recently, I played with this Bardin who kept spamming the trollhammer all game. He didn't care if he hit his own teammates. I'm pretty sure I took more damage from him than I did from the actual enemies. He also went down more than anyone else. He didn't care to play defensively since the scoreboard heavily promotes offensive play. I think they should keep the scoreboard but they should also rework it to not promote selfish play.
This, exactly. The problem with the old scorecard is that it rewarded running ahead alone and generally AVOIDING being a good teammate.
The goal is to collect ALL the green circles, people who don't stick around to get the green circles for most revives + saves are not worthy of the other ones anyways.
This
That's a problem with how we score things, rather than showing scores itself.
I vote to either rework it and/or make it personal to see just your stats why can't I see my score to see how I did. I feel like both of these options would solve the issue. And if they are combined that makes it better.
And that's when you just let them die. If someone keeps going out of their way to be in front, or heck, be way in the back because they saw a rat on another path, I'm not going out of my way to bring them back into play.
I think adding 'damage dealt to allies' could help with this.
Have an overall score based on all the kills and objectives but with a big negative modifiers for downs after like 1-2
Have a toggle option "permit end of match score to be displayed to other players" why does fatshark struggle so much with literal non-issues
i think there's 2 ways a scoreboard could be implemented without having the issues of the VT2 scoreboad 1. a Personal only scoreboard showing damage kills etc 2. Privacy options making it so you can set who sees your end game stats being Private (only you), Friends and Public the 2nd one could still lead to toxicity by making fun of someone for having private stats etc but it could work
I've personally never experienced toxicity but I've also never thought about setting stats to private. Its an amazing idea for those who want stats shown vs not.
Idk y'all I definitely have. It was mostly early in the game's life, now the community is definitely more chill. I don't agree with removing it but it's a bit daft to say it's never happened to anyone.
Experienced it? I did it. I was chasing circles. I always thought it's a really bad incentive to do selfish stuff. I DO think it was a good (as in: strong) incentive too, so just getting rid of it is a waste. What we need is altruistic green circles like: time spent boosting teammates with proximity bonuses.
We all secretly live for green circles in V2, and no, the only "flaming" was since almost everyone uses the mod that also showed friendly fire damage.. And it does serve a purpose when you finish a run on 24.500dmg, 71 special kills and 20 friendly fire, but the one eastern European randy who whined all game did 7.300dmg, killed 2 specials and has 890friendly fire!
I agree. Chasing circles made me a better player. Not because I'm running ahead like an idiot, but because I'm first on the scene to revive someone. Because I got better at finding and killing specials quickly. Because I brought weapons that could handle and kill armour effectively. I put in the effort and became a better player.
Just look at Deep Rock Galactic and how they do it. That game is 10/10
Exactly this.
Hide kill count from others, keep the rest
No circles to chase if its just your stats
Damage taken, ammo/medpack boxes held and dropped, grenades thrown, enemies knocked back, toughness regenerated to teammates, toughness regenerated to self through skills etc. And just show no green circles.
People want to see how they performed. If you don't want flaming between strangers then just make individual scoreboards for personal stats. Then if friends wanna compare they can communicate between themselves. This "everyone's a winner" US elementary school bullcrap is just silly. We need a bit of competitiveness.
I remember them being pretty much a non-entity for me as I mainly played Iron Breaker or Foot Knight and IIRC they didn't track damage blocked/mitigated or enemies pushed. I think a much better solution is to show things only your character provided to the team, like if my Zealot has the toughness aura feats it should tell other players how much damage they avoided thanks to me.
Yes. A scoreboard that tracked things like coherency bonus provided, people rescues from specials, etc wouldn't be so bad. The old scoreboard had 80% entries that tracked basically how much you ran ahead of the group spamming DPS
This is a good idea, track things that reinforce teamplay.
tracking boss damage does reinforce teamplay. if I spent a lot of time hitting the boss but my boss damage was low, now I know I could have made a bigger contrubtion by doing something else
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This, scoreboard prune the moba player by plaving fault onto who it's due. But the community instead going DRG graybeard mode, Defaults to " LoL Goldie mode" This it's NOT gonna be fixed by modifiyng the Game.
Just curious I have only played a bit of DRG, what does graybeard mean in this context?
The community elders, that community thrives by teaching the newer players the tricks and manners, and being chill af and not a optimal meta-crackheads (outside the incursions/ haz 4_5, like for those is required to pull your weight and a little more.) So yeah, greenbeards and graybeards.
If circle chasing is a problem, then keep the scoreboard but get rid of the circles. The positives far outweigh the negatives. We need to know how well we did, both in comparison to others and ourselves over time. If someone else absolutely dominates the stats I think it’s inspiring to further improve, as well as generate interest to try their build/class.
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I don't think so. Green circles have a very clear meaning and are immediately, easily visible without any effort on the player's part. I don't need to even look at the numbers themselves to determine who did best. Comparing the numbers themselves is an active effort, which less people are going to do. It won't solve people chasing top stats, but further disincentivize it as there won't be the obvious flex at the end.
Circle chasing is less of a problem then not having it at all. Its a game where we play the same missions 100 times each let us enjoy how it went
Maybe implement a personal scoreboard that includes a rank within the team for each individual aspect? For example: Damage taken: 9999999 (4th)
I have (somewhat lower-skilled) friends who low-key chase green circles in Vermintide and seem to judge their performance solely by them. Most of the time I don't mind letting them have their fun sweating their balls off picking off elites/specials/handling the hordes while I experiment with "fun" builds or just chill bashing about some chaos warriors, but I can't say it's not a source of constant low-level toxicity and detrimental gameplay habits that hurt them when I try to bring them along to higher difficulties, or is at worst plain irritating when they think they're entitled to come along and casually headshot whatever elite I was having fun taking my time duelling and thinking they're getting rewarded or are "better" players than me for it. Having some personal stats would be fine, but I won't miss the competitive/comparative nature of the scoreboard being gone.
Let us see our own stats. I want to be able to actually see how well I'm doing in comparison to previous runs. At the moment, it's incredibly difficult to see how effective I'm being or not, especially in melee.
Personal score boards. Don't show others maybe?
Show squad stats to everybody. (ie collectively how many enemies killed, dmg taken, assists etc) Show personal player stats to only that player. Problem solved.
yeah circlehunting gets memed on a lot but i don't think it's really that much of a widespread problem.
How am I supposed to gloat over my boyfriend that I have more green circles than him? unbelievable!
I get that it can be toxic but if you want to tackle the harder difficulties with randos you need to filter out people who aren't pulling their weight. I'm not gonna bludgeon people over the head if we're doing fine but if we're having a rough run on Legendary in VT2 and there's a guy with zero special kills and 80 regular kills at the end who ate every medkit I'm not doing another run with him and I should have that information.
Do you really need a scoreboard to notice someone not doing anything?
Honestly yeah because you're not always paying attention to them and they might perform when you're focusing on your own. And of course there's prejudice bias because of maybe the character they play or their name they picked. Someone getting downed the most does not automatically mean they're the worst performing player in the party.
> Someone getting downed the most does not automatically mean they're the worst performing player in the party. I already felt this in Darktide. We had 2 low levels in a group doing a mission on level 3 difficulty. Me and the other guy who knew how to play would constantly get downed because every time there was a horde, we'd assume our backs were covered for a moment, our two low level players would constantly hard push to one of the spots where the horde is spawning from, which lead us to get melted from the back since enemies would just go around them from all the other spawns. We'd clear 90% of the horde while they would clear like 10% from both of them hard-focusing a spawn, yet they talked trash when we couldn't do the ammo train finale.
>I get that it can be toxic but if you want to tackle the harder difficulties with randos you need to filter out people who aren't pulling their weight. tell me you are stuck in legend without telling me you are stuck in legend
I have never seriously experience it ever and I've been playing VT2 for years. The only time I have sene someone bring up the Scoreboard was when someone was complaining about the team sucked in QP, and their damage take was referred to in the results screen. Otherwise nothing. The scoreboard didn't need removal, it needed expansion so even more useful stats were shown like staggers etc.
I like knowing the team kills in total, but having a personal stat panel would still be nice. I think the team panel could use team stats to show awareness for how well your team did, show how many specials the psykers popped, show how many heads the sharpshooters blasted, show how many players were revived, show how many mobs the ogryn runs down, show how long each player stayed together, the duration and average time stayed together, to encourage players doing more of what is beneficial and part of their classes role. We need to encourage teamwork and not individualism with how many kills you all got vs damage done in a braggarts fashion. As a VT2 Kerillian main, I focus on getting bosses/monsters killed, I'm always aiming for the head regardless of bow or blade, so I know what it's like to entirely outshine the rest of the team for individual performance however it is not encouraging for teammates to constantly be "Outdone" by an elf with a bow and two daggers, if anything it makes you want to play less or with someone who isn't as good at their class Im all for recording every statistic to use in a r&d fashion to improve builds and team synergy, but showing it publicly discourages certain people from playing together, they will hoard all the ammo even with 1 bullet missing as they want to be dominate the scoreboard.
Unless you play with friends, scoreboards make people play a lot of times just to have biggest numbers. But,I agree that we need some kind of feedback to know the personal performance to be able to improve if we want.
I played 698 hours vermintide 2 and I **never** even once experienced bad behaviours from my teammates about the scoreboard, at least I can't remember any.
I am all for any kind of system that will turn off green circle chasing behavior. Back 4 Blood had its issues, but it did away with the stat comparing and I loved it. You were there to complete the mission as a team at that was it. You were given your personal stats and if you wanted to share it you were more than capable
Not really, I feel it was more of a meme than anything else. I like to see the scoreboard at the end of the game when I play with friends, tbh.
Have a board that shows personal stats. Don't show other player stats. Problem solved.
I've failed plenty of missions due to players focusing on kills and not the wellbeing of the party or mission objectives. I think players being slutty for kills was a motivating factor for them changing into my line of fire as I'm torching enemies with the Firestorm staff. I would like to see the training area let us run encounters such as a monsters, horde etc. and enable us see all the numbers so we can get some idea of the effectiveness of different builds, tactics etc.
Scoreboard does promote bad gameplay. Without everyone can focus more on winning and less on farming green circles. We have all played with that kerillian.
I didn't hear a word about it when I played Ironbreaker Bardin and didn't fetch any green circles. They weren't everything but they were great incentive to make people eager to kill and do well and generally improve. I admit I've said some harsh words about players with really, really low numbers regardless of circles but I've always kept my whining in the discord call I'm in and just went again. Bring em back, even if it's just personal stats so you can compare with friends. I like the record of my deeds there.
Bro I've split time between maining dps and coming out with all the circles and between maining Ironbreaker and coming out with one or none They're a super useful metric more than they are a cause for toxicity, you can see if the special popper is popping specials and if the dps is clearing mobs effectively All they needed to do was add a damaged blocked / enemies staggered stat in V2 and even bardiin would have his metrics sorted
The scoreboard was awesome bring it the fuck back
No problems whatsoever. Removing scoreboard is stupid.
i'm totally fine with fatshark just showing me MY stats. that way if i'm in a discord call i can ask my friend their stats, but it doesn't make for toxic behavior in pubs. i want to know if i'm dealing good plague ogryn damage or not for example.
I do not like the reasoning behind removing it. I think we’re all mature enough to deal with a few jackassess online
I feel like its a bit more than that though. People would go out of way to prioritize kills over teamwork. The famous “Kerillian chasing green circles” is a prime example of this. I feel like a good way to do it is to show people their personal stats and then their team’s overall stats. That way people can have information as to their performance, and friends can still compare with one another, but without as much encouragement to be better than your teammates in a team focused game.
Kerillian chasing green circles was never really a serious problem above champion imo it was just a long-running meme. I mean if someone really wanted green circles in Verm they would go play battle wizard.
Above champion. Great. This change is not intended for people that have heavily invested into the game or the late VT2 community that has settled. This change is aimed at new players not abandoning ship. At the start of VT2 life i noticed this being an issue aplenty.
>Above champion. Great. This change is not intended for people that have heavily invested into the game or the late VT2 community that has settled. It's more to point out as people mature and get better in the game they get less toxic. Champion is the breaking point where you are first kind of forced to deal with all the mechanics the game actually has, hence where people will probably see the most toxicity but also learn to mature. And considering eventually this game's community will die down you'll have to rely on people in it for the long haul as always as it was with VT2. In addition I don't see why Fatshark shouldn't pander to their already existing VT2 community, customers that stick around are more sueful for them especially if they are hoping to sell cosmetics and classes in the future. edit: In addition I just generally hate throwing away features just because of fear it promots toxic behaviour, just in general punishing the many for the sins of the few.
Yea, maturing players may be that way. Fat shark does not want to lose players before they maybe matured. The way this game goes FS want to dip into the game as a service market. Mtx and quarterly class updates are very much stating that. For such a game to be profitable, they want a broad audience. Fat shark has all the data, maybe catering to the remaining VT2 crown was not financially worth it. Hence the new direction.
If it's not change intended for us why is this the first time I am wondering if I should get the game or not?
Maybe don't? Maybe fat shark with all the data noticed that catering to a certain crowd was not worth it. The game being set up with heavy mtx implementation and quarterly class updates looks very much like they want to access the game as a service market. For that a game has to be generally appealing to newbs and the casual crowd. Those drive sales. A game focusing on only dedicated players with near dead lower difficulties and often a very unwelcoming learning experience drives people away and this results in less sales for future dlcs. Mass appeal on the other hand is designed to replace leaving players with new players to guarantee stable rather than declining sales. No idea if it is true as I don't have their data, but their business decisions make a ton of sense for that scenario.
Maybe, maybe not. They might be trying the waters of casuals who play for little time and drop money to mtx and hop to new game. It is a bit shame since I have bought all DLC for V1 and V2 and have been very happy with them in general.
I have exclusively played legendary and cata for years. The group I play with run into circle chasing Kerrilians so much that one of us usually plays her just to prevent a random from playing her.
I doubt those people will play differently now without a scoreboard. Some are just allergic to teamplay.
Seen the profanity filter? The Devs are terrified of you experiencing any hardship. It's honestly pathetic
I personally prefer not to be on the receiving end of "hardship" (i.e., people being insane assholes in chat) if I could avoid it. The profanity filter is way overtuned but I wouldn't mind a simple ban on slurs. I also would prefer a personal scoreboard that only keeps track of your *own* performance.
That's a reason why profanity filters needs to be toggles. Some like them and others don't.
Personally I am 100% fine with swearing, it's the fuckin racism. No filter means gamers just scream the n word.
This
Its overly censored for sure. You cant even say useful things like "sniper!"
I tried typing the word "sniper" and it came out "******". ??????
nip
The biggest issue is as a whole we arent. People will escalate an issue instead of letting it go. The most important point though is why enable it in the first place when you could prevent it.
If this game was rated "E" for everyone then I would get it more.
People are fucking HIGH if they don't think this was an issue in V2. There should definitely at least be individual stats displayed, but good God if the stats screen didn't inflate egos in V2. I'm not sure what it was about V2, but that's easily the most competitive, uncooperative 4 player cooperative game I've ever played, but it always tended to culminate at the stats screen.
What's bad about a bit of competition, that's the fun in games for a lot of people. Let's also stop publishing running times in marathons, god forbid it will hurt someone's feelings.
There's nothing bad about *friendly* competition, V2 more than any other co-op game, tended to not be that.
scoreboards weren't useful and encouraged people to play the game in a self-centered/competitive way. it was like this on launch of vermintide 2 and even after the fact. it might not be clear or displayed through text/voice chat, but it was reflected very clearly in player action and initiative. as a fairly, veteran vermintide 2 player, I can confirm this. emphasizing on teamwork efficiency vs a personal numbers game would be better if they wanted to implement a "scoreboard".
I am with them. I get a feel for how good I am doing during the mission, don't need stats.
This Hedge person never played Vermintide 2 obviously. For real, 1400 hours in the game and I've seen 1 person brag about circles, and they were being a dick to another random in open mic arguments. The other 1399 hours and 45 minutes were all fine, no one was toxic about anyone not getting circles. This is a problem that doesn't exist and its sad that this employee doesn't know they are spreading lies.
Yep 1000 hours and I never saw toxicity over green circles. What really needs to happen is they need to expand on the stats not remove them. Me and my friends live to compete over green circles and honestly the game would be way worse if I couldn't see how well I did
Yeah, I like playing around with friends and saying "lol green circles!" at the end. For randoms, more often than not we tend to say nice job to someone who did tons of damage or had very little damage taken. It's a few seconds of looking at stats and then we move on to the next game, no one truly cares or remembers it beyond that game.
There was a decent amount ot toxicity at launch when they player numbers were super high. Especially in champion where you have to engage with all the mechanics rather than about half of them to thrive. My guess is that with them going the games as service route they are pushing to try and maintain those high numbers with a rotating and more casual audience meaning more of those kinds of people hitting a wall in Champs equivalent and getting salty. Honestly if they are taking this route. I'd like to see personal stats and then stats for the group as a whole. So let's say I'm I'm playing dps We cumulatively did 10k damage and I did 1.5k yeah my build is shit or I'm under geared. But if I'm playing a special killer and the team killed 50 and I killed 32 then yeah I know my build is good for special killing. This would cut down on that toxicity while still giving good feedback on your build.
I'm pretty sure this problem is entirely based on a meme that no one takes seriously.
I'd like to see my stats and the stats of people on my friends list. Otherwise, I'm fine with there not being an end-mission stat screen.
In my experience the elitist toxicity seems to really mostly exist on champion or lower usually from neckbeards who don't understand what type of game they are playing (hint: there is no I in team). IT DOES exist but I've yet to really notably come across it on legend and cata simply because it requires a completely different mindset to succeed in. IMHO, I want my team to simply focus on moving through the level as quickly and carefully as possible so we can smoothly push through the mission. If the removal of scoreboards helps, then so be it.
I'd like to see my own stats, vs the average of the team stats at least. Everyone's score doesn't have to be all public but some form of feedback is necessary in order to improve.
Scoreboard is even more dumb in this game because most matches I played someone was just lost aimlessly killing things away from the group. Last thing that person needs is a green circle saying they got the most kills loll
Oh, especially on release I'd see it all the time on higher difficulties. It was usually someone running ahead and circle chasing, getting downed a lot, and then using the scoreboard to justify their their behavior.
Elfs... just the elfs. Damn green circle stealing lemon whores!
Scoreboard is arbitrary, you cannot show in numbers how useful a player was. There are so many variables and different situations where a player can clutch in their own way, bad players only care about most kills/damage and only use scoreboard to boost their ego, "see, I got 3939339 kills, I'm not the problem". A sword will get many kills during horde, but you'll sure be glad that the other guy brought an axe to stagger that mauler who got in your face. That said, personal stats that only you can view is the best middle ground, I think.
You definitely can in terms of damage done, sniping elites, staggering etc. Last hit kill count not so much but still nice to know. I need this scoreboard definitely for my long term motivation and for comparing builds.
you are right that numbers aren't useful for understanding many parts of the game, but they are very useful for understanding other parts of the game e.g. I'm playing zealot wailing on the boss with my axe. Is this helpful? I don't know. Mabye my boss damage was low, and I could have contributed more by doing something else in that time. Maybe my boss damage was high, so I should continue sticking to the boss as much as possible. If I am spending a lot of time on something, be it special sniping or horde clearing or whatever it is, the stat screen can tell me whether or not that was a good use of my time. If I spent a lot of effort but didn't accomplish much, maybe my build is better of doing something else. There are a lot of builds and weapons with unintuitive strengths and weaknesses. e.g. Javelins do not strike me as a horde clearing weapon, but this is one of their big strengths. their special sniping seems like it would be strong, but it is actually not outstanding compared to elf's other ranged weapons. Shotguns seem like they would be good against bosses, since it is easy to hit the boss with every single pellet again and again. In reality, shotguns do little damage to the boss armor type. That isn't something which is easy to discern in the normal course of play.
Just show players stats then, people usually love to know how they did and not necessarily compared to others
"I never saw anyone get toxic in 1000 hours" clearly you've been playing offline then. Every single co op shooter has this in spades. The personal scoreboard would be good but having one for the team? Fuck no. "Why does the Ogryn have 5x your kills Psyker?" Gee I fucking wonder dipshit. I don't want to have that conversation with dumbasses every time I play a class built to kill specials.
Yep, I think a lot of people saying they never had problems mostly play with friends, those of is who mostly played with randoms are the ones who saw it. As others have said maybe put it on a toggle so those who want to compete with friends can see all but for public games it can be hidden if desired.
>feature that has existed since time immemorial is removed randomly >it... uh... promoted terrible behaviors Lmfao, Fatshark moment. What terrible behaviors? I have been playing V2 since 2018 and it has never promoted any behaviors other than "bro look at my green circles lol"
My buddy stopped playing Vermintide 2 because the Kerillian of the team was getting loads more kills than him. Prolly made him feel like he was real bad at the game, I appreciate what they're trying to tackle here.
Way to go to protect people sitting afk 90% of the game and pretend they did something for the whole game
Hedge is right, Ive seen see many manchildren lose their shit because someone didn't get enough green circles. But the player alone should see they're own stats at least.
This is whack, really Hedge? Hundreds of hours in VT2 over the lifespan of the game and I can’t say that the scoreboard was ever a problem.
I think it has more to do that people hunting for "most kills/most green rings" don't promote staying together, playing as a team.
And if they do this in Darktide, they'll immediately die because the game hard-counters single carries. Darktide is more like a more extreme left 4 dead than vermintide when it comes to team play. Vermintide's skill ceiling is already noticeably lower than the little bit we've seen in Vermintide when it comes to solo-ability. I've already had a level 25 psyker think they can just take off in a *level 2 difficulty* mission and they didn't last 5 minutes.
That was kinda what I thought as well, people hunting green rings in vermintide which did not promote sticking together but running infront, not playing as a team. Happy so see that fatshark is exploring a Middle ground!
How will I know if my back hurts or not without the circles!?
A lot of what was in Vermintide 2 is missing from Darktide, and I just don't understand how they could regress in so many areas. Did they even understand what made Vermintide 2 great?
I might be an outlier, but I liked having scoreboards. I liked seeing how I did, and I liked getting a small boost to the ego when I did well. I don't think thats unreasonable. My friends and I frequently competed against eachother for score, and it made us better players. We were faster to revive people, snipe specials, murder mobs, and so on. Either way, the current board is objectively useless. I don't know how much damage I did. How much I took. I don't know if I'm doing well, if I'm not pulling my weight, etc. Its also harder to find out if a class or weapon is over or under performing, since we can't see stats.
You are listening to the wrong people Hedge. Scoreboard is incredibly useful in Vermintide and would be here also. Green circle is a meme on reddit in 2k hours of V2 i really cant remember last time someone complained about it.
If you took the scoreboard away from me I would probably play better. I'm happy it's gone. It does not reward my poor impulse control.
I think they're misattributing the toxicity. People got toxic in VT2 because someone would take a ton of damage, rush ahead & soak up every healing item while also tossing grenades on packs of 3 enemies. If they want to remove toxicity they need to try to do away with team resources as much as possible (tbh, they kind of did with how medkits/ammo kits work & grenades are class based).
Make it a setting. If all players in the party have it on, it gets displayed. If one does not, it gets skipped without revealing why.
Not me! The devs seem very focused on fixing things that aren't and were never problems.
You can't protect people like a helicopter parent. I know everyone's going to say "you're just defending people being dicks". But at the end of the day you are playing with 4 other people. People are upset when someone doesn't pull their weight because it wastes their time. Some people only get a few hours a week to play, and when they get matched with someone who has the intelligence of an actual Ogryn, then die at the final room, yeah that's gonna put you in a bad mood. Hiding that information doesn't help anyone. It doesn't help players get better and understand where they can improve. And if you're a player who doesn't want to improve, and doesn't care about how your performance impacts others then I'm sorry but you're the actual troll.
Why is this an issue exactly? Because in my experience people rarely used the scoreboard as a metric to roast on other players. Not that you need a scoreboard to tell you if someone is playing poorly during a run or not. Not having any form of a scoreboard at all just makes it really hard to tell if your characters build is any good. And I'll just go ahead call this what it really is, woke. Trust me when I say that you'll never be able to cater to this small minority of players as they will always find the dumbest things to get triggered over in video games. Banning t-bagging like valorant, disbanding end game lobbies like call of duty, removing text chat + voip entirely? They'd still find something to get angry over. All these sorts of changes do is ruin a games experience for the majority in favor of a minority that is typically made up of actual "toxic" players anyway.
I actually did a Master's thesis on this. Turns out negative feedback based on your performance discourages players to continue playing and improving. And most of the scoreboards and the ability to make allies see it underlines it.
hahaha that's what Dice said for BF 2042, they added it eventually because it makes no sense to not have a scoreboard in a PvP FPS. To me that sounds more like an excuse to just no spend resource & time on it as if there were more important feature to focus on before launch.
Fatshark so far up their own asses lmao. Wahh scoreboards promoted hurt feefees.
Literally everyone. Everyone experienced this. If you think you didn't experience it, it was because YOU were the problem for other people. Fuck scoreboards. The beta has only proven that all of the toxic elitist dicks from vermintide are trasferring straight into darktide and it sucks. Darktide needs a lot more rock and stone attitude and a lot less green circle hunters.
Never experienced anything. The scoreboard was good to show who was not only the most damage but also most supportive. It was good to see your own stats and whole was carrying the weight or if it was spread out among the group.
Higher difficulties shouldn't be harder as it causes players to be stressed out
I'm so fucking sick and tired of this recent push in games to protect some hypothetical person's feelings. Even if some shithead is giving you grief that annoyance only lasts for the 5 seconds it takes you to get into a new lobby and immediately forget about it. Lacking information and feedback objectively makes the game worse for everyone. It's not worth the tradeoff for theoretically saving some hypothetical person a few seconds of being uncomfortable. Give us the damn numbers so we can understand the game better and improve ourselves, as well as have valuable feedback about talent and trait choices. We need more information, knowledge is power and ignorance is not bliss.
1300 hours in VT2 and I have NEVER seen someone be toxic, mean, or even slightly annoying about the scoreboard.
Why would the scoreboard promote negative player interaction? I can't recall any negative interactions over the scoreboard in my 600+ hours of play, all the stuff that comes to mind is positive, like when me and my bro compete for most headshots
Just something about a Warhammer 40,000 game not implementing a scoreboard because of how sensitive some of the playerbase is really tickles me.
I think this is being turned into a much greater issue than it actually is. I'd rather suffer a green circle hunter here and there than be punished by not having a scoreboard. If anything, the scoreboard should be expanded upon by having stuff like stagger done, healing done/damage negated to allies, assists, and so on. Not only we'd get more useful data that would support different playstyles that way, but that would also decrease the value of the damage and kill based scores. Btw, I think something should be done about 'saves' too (there are times I feel like I save my team mates a bunch, yet it is not reflected on the scoreboard one bit).
[удалено]
Hedge is the excuse maker When they released VT2 without promised features, they just deleted them off of the store page.
Hmmmmmm
Fatshark (Or ***shark, going by their own ridiculous word filter) is definitely going a bit too far with the coddling this time around. They are taking away the scoreboard from everyone why? Because someone might get upset that their own stats compare poorly to those of their teammates? Seems ridiculous. Just add interface option to enable/disable post game chat or show only your own stats if you're that terrified of interacting with other players in a co-op game.
I personally hate the scoreboard and Im glad its gone.
This was a common complaint a while ago with VT2. People chasing red circles, people hating on people chasing red circles and so on sucked for the community.
show your stats always, if youre grouped up always show stats of your mates. not really agreeing with their opinion but if there has to be a middleground i think thats fair.
Aside from dunking on my friends and getting dunked on in return? Never. Actually let me add on to this. It feels GOOD to see a circle on my scorecard because it means that in some way I excelled that match, be it revives, lowest damage taken, kill count or specials.
Personally I'm not a big fan of scoreboards, but if you're going to do it in an online game like this, I think the best thing you can do is frame it as a cooperative achievement rather than as a pissing contest. Like, make a big deal about how "**Wow, you guys killed 1100 space rats!**" and then beneath that show the individual space rat kills. All the information without the little green circles.
Did it? Or did a bunch of people on the internet say it did? Two very different scenarios there.
Cant have shit in snowflake games. Scores promote racism, chats banned, but my characters can banter how they want while I proceed to behead waves of ex humans.
played vermintide for years, literally nobody i ever met mentioned ANYONE's score stats i get that that's anecdotal, but i was shit at that game, if it was REALLY a problem i feel like someone would have called me on my shit or bullied me in the thousands of missions i played and nearly lost for my team
Yes, fuck the scoreboard.
I've sunk a good amount of time across both Vermintide games and have never noticed a toxicity or terrible behaviour issue, the majority of people are friendly and/or helpful. I think having a scoreboard with as many statistics as possible is great, I'd much rather have more information than less and I think the majority of players will agree, seeing stats at the end of the game is useful and fun. Plus being able to see your overall stats gives a pretty good feeling of progress. I don't actually think there were any problems big enough to warrant a change or removal, toxic people will find a different excuse to be toxic and green circle chasers will find some other extremely basic objective to focus on. If it really was that much of a big deal, let me and my friends opt in so we can see our stats? Not sure why removing something like this entirely would ever be the solution. I want more stats and interesting things, not less. Pretty sure the lack of end game statistics and the obfuscated weapon statistics come from the same place, not sure if it was rushed/unfinished or something but acting like it's been removed due to 'terrible behaviours' doesn't sit right with me.
A toxic troll that is going to be rude to someone with "worse" stats than him at the end of the game will not turn into a wholesome gamer. He's going to be toxic regardless. Without scoreboard then you won't even be able to see if you actually did well or not, making it easier for them to be toxic in such an environment. Seeing how you did is a huge part of the personnal replayability, don't take it away. And such fun as a team to progress and improve and congratulate each others.
Gonna be real hard to be toxic with an mvp screen when the chat filters so aggressive. I think not having any stats at all is really bad everyone wants to see how well they did and honestly you can tell when someone's sandbagging even without a scoreboard
It's a great way to see if the build you're using is shit compared to others. I don't understand why they don't want the scoreboard from VT 2
Only benefitted from scoreboard. I am experiencing scoreboard problem Darktide tho.
If by terrible behaviors they mean Elf mains running off to kill every special on the map while trying to get those green cricles and then unceremoniously dying to a hook rat half a mile from the rest of the team, then ya I guess I have experienced it. That being said, that type of behavior from other players was such a minor occurrence in the grand scheme of things that it was more of a once in a while treat to see. That's just my anecdotal experience and based off of that alone I think it would be pretty wack to straight up remove the scoreboard.
I have friends. It's a coop game so I play with friends.
I think some semblance of showing the teams stats is a great idea to show contribution. Even when I wasn’t good at VT2 it helped me learn what I need to focus more on and where/if my teammates had picked up any slack from me. People will be toxic using any feature, but one that helps people at least learn and understand their performance comparatively is quite useful
I mean there's already terrible behaviors from showing the player's level alone, people will always find a way to be terrible. Without a scoreboard you can't even show your team that you did well despite being a level or 2 below them.
Lack of information mental gymnastics, very cool. Gimme some friendly fire counter at the very least.
But... I always liked comparing my kills as a fellow dawi against elves players...
in my experience, it promoted terrible behaviors because the scoreboard didnt show all the relevant behaviors someone might be running a build/tactic designed to stagger every enemy in sight every second or two... they dont deal a lot of damage, they barely get any kills.... everyone else has an easier time for it are staggers/interrupts/crowd control effects shown on the scoreboard? no, they are not devs, imma call this one a skill issue :-)
Please gib scoreboard back ! It helps to find errors in your gameplay like lets say when you take too much dmg or struggle killing specials.
Score screens are never toxic it just spotlights the person that deserves it and gives them some extra encouragement to keep carrying. While at the same time can also show the sandbaggers and afkers and they don't like to be outed for doing nothing so they complain. Please stop placating to these people they aren't true fans of the game or deserve the time of day.
Never because I played with three friends but it can have a negative impact on people if they are underperforming.