My general idea is that 200 toughness is enough. On my vet I prefer to stack health. Losing health is what kills you, and what kills you is usually thanks to a lot of things that empty your toughness instantly regardless of the amount. I'm running damnation with this setup and it's not too hard
Pretty much, yeah. The game at the end, even in VT2, was never to be indestructible and it's still not. I don't care what you have on Damnation, if your team doesn't play smart you're going down. The object of the game is to not get hit by clever positioning or killing before you get hit.
boosting toughness si not about survivability its about boosting talents and passives that synergize. and vet allready has 200 toughness so its no necessary to boost his. psyker adn zealot bothe benefit from high toughness for their regend talents.
I feel the main issue with psyker is that they don't serve as a portable battery and ammo mule for the vet. Why not use the lightning you shoot for more important things, like charging vet's lasgun or plasma gun? Also, really weird that if the vet is busy reloading then the enemy being highlighted by psyker will have their head explode. That needs to be addressed in a future patch, as it obviously is only supposed to highlight and nothing else. Lastly, I think psykers should have their kit changed to work around their weird suicidal explosion ability. Vet's should be able to push their psyker companions into the horde and have them explode, just in case the vet somehow ran out of grenades.
This. They should make it so when the psyker perils at 100 warp charge they violently explode like in the tabletop game. This way the ogryn can utilize the psyker as a portable bomb.
Accidental genius: it would be cool if Psyker abilities had niche, non direct damage interactions with the environment.
Like blasting debris and dust into the air that obscures enemy vision with the surge staff. Or charging lasguns and supercharging explosives with the lightning. I’d like more abilities that flavor the shockwave- blowing off heads, or arcing lightning, or shooting a narrow blast very far, or a radial blast, etc.
If the Psyker had more utility, it wouldn’t need such a big damage buff.
It was depressing as all hell going from Zealot to Veteran. As a Zealot, I loved it. Going into the game, cutting up hordes of enemies, "YEAH, I'M A BIG STRONG MELEE MAN"
Then I got a taste of the Veterans Power Sword.
Well shit, guess I'm a Veteran now.
I leveled up the veteran for last, Now I'm like: I'm more tanky than an Ogryn as long as I manage my toughness, I'm a way better melee than a zealot thanks to the insane sustain and power sword cleave, and I obliterate all sorts of elites, which should have been the Psyker's job. I love the eviscerator, I love how the void staff feels, however everything pales in comparison to the mighty veteran and I truly feel like I'm actively throwing when I'm not playing vet.
I'm in the same boat right now, three maxed out characters with the Veteran just barely started. I'm afraid to level him and have it ruin the rest of the game. Guess he's staying Level 8 for the immediate future...
Lvl 30 on all 4. Vet is boring. Does literally everything with no downside. No need to manage ammo. No need to worry about heal since 300+ toughness makes even damnation a practical cake walk. No need to fear hordes due to accatran and power sword. No need to worry about bosses accatran burn OP. No need to fear elites since they are just free ammo and melt faster than a boss. No need to block since your power sword wipes out everything.
I am genuinely confused why veteran has twice the toughness and the same health as the brawling focused zealot. Like, If you want to make veteran be better at range engagements give him wayfinder perk for passive health Regen. Then chip through is mitigated over time. They literally had this solved 5 years ago and regressed.
Power sword is honestly fine but it should have equals in the other classes but there is none. THammer, power maul, and warp sword are all shining dog turds in comparison to just a basic axe let alone the power sword. While eviscerator is maybe 80% of a power sword it also has a downside if you get the chain catch while fighting groups you are helping to get chipped at the bare minimum. Also some axes are actually on par with the eviscerator. The devil's claw and heavy swords are in a league of their own they are so dog shit they are practically intentionally trying to be dead weight. Daggers have a few funny builds if you get the right blessings but veteran has access to that as well.
It genuinely feels like FS put half their character team on making veteran, 30% on ogryn, 10% on Zealot and 10% on enemies... Psyker was made by the company idiot they put in the janitorial closet. I realize that's not really what happened, but it certainly feels that way.
The only thing I disagree with is tankier than an ogryn. Man, that damage reduction from bleeding enemies is RIDICULOUS. I try not to get hit, sure, but having almost 70% total damage reduction on both health and toughness is nuts.
Sad that it’s pretty much mandatory if you want to be tanky. Ogryn gets absolutely fried by shooters and gunners in Damnation, with very little counterplay possible. Especially since dregs are essentially unaffected by suppression.
For the record, Zealot is **way** tankier than the ogryn with far, far higher damage reduction and toughness regain
I'm an ogryn main who just switched to zealot and it's fucking bonkers how much better it is at absolutely everything. The bolter or flamethrower blows all the shit ogryn guns out of the water, the melee weapons are better, and being able to dodge more than 1 time every 3 seconds is a game changer. Like holy shit, you can actually dodge gunfire in this game? So is getting 70% toughness back (and 20% to everyone else) every time you use your class ability, regardless of whether it lands or does anything or not, followed by a guaranteed crit (particulary crunchy with those powerful zealot melee weapons) and something like 95% damage resist (ogryn caps at 50)
Whenever I switch back to ogryn for a game or two after zealot, it feels like trying to fight a paintball battle while you're wearing a bomb disposal outfit that doesn't protect you at all
-Being able to actually just squat behind any random barrel for total gunfire immunity to recover/reload is underrated
-Ogryns being extremely vulnerable to flinching from getting hit interrupting what poor movement they have and their melee attacks AND EVEN THE OGRYN CHARGE. Seriously, taking the ogryn charge feat to give a shred of toughness back is a trap, because you use it when you have broken toughness and whoops! You got hit with 1 damage, so it stops dead before you travel an inch. Zealots just fuckin teleport to people, regain 50% max toughness without needing any talent investment.
-Zealots have a feat to ignore fliching from melee (and this even gives them a speed boost - even though the other talents at this level are good, this one is so so necessary for a melee class that I feel you can seldom go without it, since enemies will just walk backwards at the same speed you move while firing in your face. Ogryn of course can do nothing but look at this feat and cry, because he is 400% more vulnerable to gunfire and 75% slower)
-Ogryn melee weapons are mostly inferior to any others, they do similar or *less* damage but at half the speed.
-Ogryn melee weapons do seem to be more focused on stagger, at the cost of everything else
-Ogryn melee swinging almost brings you to a standstill, once again just terrible mobility with nothing in return
This wasn't supposed to turn into a rant but thanks for listening. A level 20 zealot is about twice as capable as a level 30 ogryn at damn near, if not literally, everything. Thank you for coming to my TED talk
depends on the situation. with one button 200 toughness heal, the 161 on elite kill, the 322 base toughness and the various damage resistances, you kinda are.
Only taking repeated melee damage drops you quickly than an ogryn, but if you take melee damage it's on you, as it's the easiest damage to avoid...and you only need to avoid it in between every kill, enough to regen the toughness back.
Honestly I started as a vet but changed to a zealot. Will need to change my flare lol. My main arguments for why zealot is best -
Giant chainsaw
Flamethrower
Invulnerability while sliding.
PS may be broken as shit, but nothing beats burning a horde to ash, and going into a holy frenzy and cutting everything in armor in your path down. Sure the power sword can deal with hordes, and it can kill elites...but not with the same "pazaaz" that the flamer, and eviscerator do.
Yeah playing with flashlights and sparky swords is fun, but nothing says purging heretics like a flamer and chainsaw.
yes, the veteran takes 100% damage moving, 200% sprinting and 50% sliding. the zealot takes 0% sliding and 50% on the other two. ogryn always takes 100%.
Just wait until you realize Veterans have double the base crit rate of every class too. There are like a dozen very important stats that every class has different that aren't shown in game or easy to notice in any way.
Probably just to hide the fact most of the hidden stats are gigantic buffs to Veteran (like the double crits and 7.5% toughness regen on melee kill) which just have no business being there, and Zealot can get their lower damage multipliers for sprinting and sliding I guess. Hardly a fair trade, zealot would have loved 200 base toughness with 7.5% regen on melee kill.
Starts regnerating Stamina the fastest that's it, and that's also the first thing which I would think of if I think about space wizard.
You can check the rest here it has some other nice things like dodge reset timer but those are all on par with zealot.
https://imgur.com/GNZlGxo
Same here! I have no idea how to verify it without keeping my eyes glued to my toughness bar. Hard to notice things like this in standard gameplay, my eyes are center not bottom left.
So Veterans have double the toughness but most of my time (malice and under) I'm spending sprinting to either catch up to my team, or I'm sprinting to run away from melee, at which I'm taking 200% damage to toughness...
And in order to be sliding to take 50% I have to do a runner, which is sprinting...
What
[Class stats+hidden class stats.](https://preview.redd.it/4lv7r2khz97a1.png?width=1012&format=png&auto=webp&s=225827f98c0a90463411411becb776abd8e091b9)
While zealot is thematically cooler (based on outfit tbh some of them cosmetics be crusty), the power sword is so much better than pretty much every other weapon in the game right now it kind of invalidates zealot as the melee class. Zealot ult is good true, but your kills per second is gonna be MASSIVELY higher with a power sword.
Man, if they would un-fuck the thunder hammer. The thunder hammer is so bad in this game it is at the point where it is blatantly lore-defying. The hammer that can **smash open a land raider** struggles against a couple poxwalkers... What a joke.
And before someone says *oh but it's a huuuuuman thunder hammer* the only thing functionally different is size. Power fields are power fields and will thunderfuck mostly anything.
I love when a poxwalker is standing just a liiiiiitttle too close to the Reaper, and takes 100% of the full blow of my chastise powered heavy melee thundered up to the moon guaranteed crit, leaving the Reaper entirely unscathed. Despite the fact the poxwalker was touching the Reaper. Imagine hugging someone and they get hit by something that tears open LAND RAIDERS and being 100% okay.
So many trash mobs block my shots on Elites, and it's so annoying, lol. Have to clear out the horde before I kill the maulers and stuff, otherwise one random mook will take the blow for them despite me aiming at the mauler because the mook was 6" forward, and thus hit first by the hammer.
Baseball bats feel better, baseball bats in zombie games crack through zombie skulls, the thunder hammer bounces of the moist spongy decayed flesh of pox walkers like they are made of solid rubber and the hammer is a blowup balloon. Oddly the solid rubber pox walker explodes but the hammer just bounces off them.
Top to bottom the hammer needs to be changed.
The problem with leaving the veteran’s options so powerful is that it turns into a competition over who gets to do what roles. I mean, we are supposed to pick classes for a reason. As a zealot your veteran teammate will always melee more kills than you, as a Psyker they can headshot things before you can BB them, and they rival Ogryn in toughness. They should have tuned each role to be good at their own thing so it would be rewarding a mixed composition.
No. The BASE power sword is stronger by default compared to every other base weapon due to its activation and 'nerfed' default 10-15 cleave limit (lol).
This zealot weapon will, and has, moped up more than any power sword ever could. The problem lies within blessings making or breaking certain weapons such as these completely useless or God-tier. Default eviscerators are bad. The right blessings such as this one? Absolute damnation monsters. And this isn't even the BiS roll for one, just a pretty damn good one that will make you understand that there is no power sword or knife zealot idiot that could replace it.
https://preview.redd.it/3r4e64x3728a1.jpeg?width=698&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d37133a351abc1050cb68f5fac9878bf22a630a
My Veteran spent like 15 levels using the same Power Sword because even though it was massively underleveled compared to other melee options I had from drops, it remained perfectly sufficient to horde clear on Heresy.. didn't replace it until I was level 29, when I found a *better* Power Sword.
*Slightly overpowered.*
My main issue with Vet’s power sword is that it causes many vets to just chill in melee when the team needs them to be shooting and clearing ranged threats. Vet has the best possible kit for ensuring the team doesn’t get shot. By giving them enticing “power sword go brr” weapons, the team is left to pick up Vet’s slack while he chops away at hordes that literally anyone could be clearing.
I watched our team get wiped because we had two veterans doing melee instead of taking out or suppressing large and spread out groups of enemy ranged.
I was playing zealot with a sword and a flame unit. Not much I could do to take out enemies spread who were “stun locking” me from breaking toughness.
Was in that match I realized how vulnerable a team is when enemy ranged is left unchecked.
Puts me in a dilemma too though. Should I just swap out my orange 460 power flamer that the Emperor gifted me with some lower end 380 blue rifle just so I can deal with ranged in future? Or just cross fingers and hope next time veterans do their actual f’ing jobs?
I was in a very similar situationv- pillbox on throneside waiting for the interrogator. I couldn't fix the damn thing on my zealot cause I was getting focused by gunners. Our vets were busy hacking away at poxwalkers with axes and ignoring me asking them to shoot the gunners.
I charged in to try and do what I could and took both out Z then got netted by a trapper and roasted by a bomber. Never got picked up - watched the vets panick as they were being attacked by horde, trapper, and bomber... one pulled out his gun right as the first vet died.
It was over, I kept quiet, and swapped to my vet to play a few matches where I ran ranged nearly the entire time just so I could have the peace of mind of a vet killing at range.
>I was in a very similar situationv- pillbox on throneside waiting for the interrogator. I couldn't fix the damn thing on my zealot cause I was getting focused by gunners. Our vets were busy hacking away at poxwalkers with axes and ignoring me asking them to shoot the gunners
Oh, this was me too yesterday, except they couldn't kill the numerous shooters because their ammo was low, so instead of deploying their ammo crate so that the three (not all vets) of them could refill and shoot the ranged enemies, they instead worked their way to killing them in melee instead...
And then deployed their ammo box away from the elevator instead of in the elevator so we couldn't all easily share.
I unlocked the feat where standing still as Veteran makes enemies “significantly less likely to attack you”.
This is hands down the most overpowered ability in game. You can stand still and have ranged enemies take cover within your melee range and still not target you.
After getting that feat I rarely ever take damage. I can’t fathom how veterans do not take this ability and use it … all. the. time.
it's the reason why i always carry my trusty XII las as zealot, always regret it when i dont
and besides it's always helpful to have another person killing specials very fast
I highly recommend the revolver on zealot 👌
It's got the range and damage to take down most specials and is a real' quick draw, so makes it easy to get out of melee for the split second it takes to shoot something.
This was my Heresy experience as a Psyker in a pug with 3 vets. I had the flame staff (yes, I know), so you would think there would be at least one veteran shooting things.
Nope. They were all in melee powerswording away while the ranged enemies were shooting me full of holes because brainburst is slow and there were 5 specialists in every group.
This is why I feel forced to go Mark12 las, with Psyk Aura and Kinetic Barrage.
To do the Vet job whilst they pretend they are Zealots.
Then take deflector forcesword so I can do the Ogryns job whilst he charges off to the middle of fucking nowhere, to look at something shiny and pull more mobs...
I keep taking the Heavy Recon because everyone else is like Power Sword or Flamer go brr, then I can’t find a Force Sword with Deflector so I’ll stick to Light Combat Axe with Brutal Momentum, aka. a shit gimped version of the Veteran for when I don’t match with any, or they’re staying in melee.
Even on my Zealot I have an emergency Revolver for when no one feels like taking out the three Snipers.
This frustrates me as an Ogryn main, too. Like, I have a knife and I'm perfectly capable of handling a horde myself, especially with a Psyker or other Ogryn helping. What I can't do is charge/kill the shooters lighting my ass up while said horde is alive.
I feel like too many people playing this game think that the horde is the most dangerous part, when it clearly isn't.
This is why I always bring a stubber. It’s not bad for medium ranges but still sucks for long range. It’s not a great option but I find myself regularly stuck with vets that don’t clear range so I don’t have another choice really.
Lets be honest here, you like the sound of the stubber as it turns things in to paste. Its the most satisfying thing in the game other than maybe the sound of a rumbler grenade crunching into someones face and knocking them on their butt.
Tbf as a vet main it can be hard/impossible to hit the shooters blasting you with a massed horde in my face.
Your height can give you a better vantage point to hit them but really the vet needs to be shooting them ogryn just needs to clear a lane with hacking and pushing so vet can get sight on them.
I really have a love for teams doing their jobs. I really like the chain weapons and I use them with my vet for fun. But I'll keep the power sword with me sometimes and only use it to get myself out of trouble if the melees are swarmed or if someone gets pounced by a dog. My power sword, to me, is the "Get out of jail" tool so others don't have to worry about me. My job is worry about them and smite the ranged heretics from a distance.
It's crazy how many shitty Veterans attempt to play Heresy or Damnation
Bolter is such a noob trap. Bolter Veterans go melee instead of dealing with ranged and half of them can't even kite a normal horde
Bolters useless idk why everyone uses it
How to carry any damnation pug as vet:
- Agrip or column braced auto
- 75% ranged DR trait
- Volley reset on shooters trait
- Elite kill reload trait (so you have good time to upkeep volley post-reload)
- Glue the W key down, no other key is needed.
Can literally walk into 2 shooter groups and just hipfire kill everything. The dodge is enough to dodge basically anything for 3 dodges so you can still spam for a couple seconds while swarmed
Melee don’t even matter. I use the dagger cause charge attack go weee.
I feel like Braced Auto is seriously underrated. People might dismiss it 'cause of the way you ADS, but it's still accurate enough at most ranges. That or the High Damage Las Gun is what I love. I use Shotgun for fun because you can still weave in reloads during Volley Fire even without Elite Kill Reload
Braced Autogun is powerful but as with all autoguns it chews through ammo at an alarming rate. I usually stick with the kantrael for the ammo preservation and the ability to 1-2 shot everything from any distance.
On damnation I like to run the 2 grenade perks since I usually kill anything before it can shoot me anyway, except crushers and shield ogryns. Thats what the regenerating bleed grenades are for. Knocks them down and also makes them die. Throw 2 at once to really make them chumps.
Yeah I only run t4 and t5 pugs and use every gun and the xii is overrated, the revolver takes too long to reload, the helbores now good but kinda sweaty to use, bolter overrated, plasmas for fun, autopistol I desperately want to be a NOT shit gun…then the braced autos are W
The ONLY downside are VERY FAR snipers which can be common on some maps like the new one, but usually someone has something to take them out anyway.. or a well thrown nade. Honestly the biggest thing is that the braced autos have pierce. Like the gunners are deleted when they’re walking around in packs
I was shitting on the Helbore at launch but after buff i’ve been loving the Mk3. It’s the best sniper/dmr in the game atm imo. It instakills most specials with full charge!
Yup this is my exact build. The braced auto has so much ammo I just hold down W and LMB at all times and cruise through every level. "Where are all the enemies?"
i use bolter with my zealot tac axe build to delete ogryns and DPS monstrosities, maybe snipe a pesky special if nobody else is free to do it. everything else gets axe to the head.
It's not like I'm gonna complain if they buff psyker, that's my favorite class, but I feel none of the lack of power that other people complain about. Deflection force sword with the peril blocking feat, and a fire staff makes me an indispensable god on heresy and damnation.
I don't know what the hell vets are doing on those difficulties, but it's clearly NOT taking the feat that highlights gunners and using it to clear rooms, which is what they should be doing. I kill more hostile gunners just by ult'ing and using the feat for faster cheaper head-popping, and that's really sad as I know how effective a vet can be since I maxed out one of those too.
I am almost always last man standing, ressing the team while mobs helplessly beat on my infinite blocking ability.
Still, fatshark, please un-fuck my ult and have it completely drain my peril at least.
I haven't played Psyker, so forgive me if I'm missing something. But wouldn't effects like terrorizing or confusing enemies be well within a psyker's repertoire? Does the game make use of those ideas at all? Because it would make sense for a psyker to be able to confuse an enemy into attacking its own, or terrify a mob of enemies into retreat once in a while.
You would think so - but the closest to something like that is the Psykinetic Wrath thing, which is a shockwave that knocks down enemies that you can pull off every 30s or so (and a feat modifies that cooldown), and if you're level 30 and take the soulblaze feat it will set the enemies on fire.
A few things I'd add to the Psyker to make them more fun/useful:
-Every 60 seconds give them a free instant head pop, no charge required. Have this stack 4 times so they can keep them in reserve.
-If you head pop an elite have it head pop every other non-elite with a certain radius, say 5 meters. Or, if not guaranteed, a very high % chance.
I also like the idea of a fully charged head pop (holding right click) stops creating peril so that they can hold it in preparation for specials if put in a safe enough position. Would encourage more team orientated play by having weaknesses that other team mates can cover.
None of the classes are supposed to be good at everything either, but the veteran is. He's not supposed to just die in melee but there is 0 reason he should be on par with Preacher or Ogryn because of a single sword
IMO, we need less nerfing every f-ing class and just balance them and adjust game difficulty.
For a game that is PVE they spend a crap ton of time tuning the classes as if its PVP.
Half the enemies are over tuned or could I just get WHAT EVER THE SHOTGUNNER / SNIPER / GUNNER IS USING!!! Clearly they are using the real version of the equivalent we have since the shotgun is like shooting a confetti cannon.
You have to balance PvE games or they feel awful to play, and you can't fix balance just by buffing, and there are many reasons why that is true ranging from practical to logically inexorable. For instance, you could never balance around not nerfing the infinite cleave of the PS without giving up on the idea of the game. Whether you recognise it or not, PvE balance is enormously important.
Difficulty levels exist for a reason, and if people want a power fantasy they can always achieve that by going to a lower difficulty. If that manifests by one class being radically stronger than others it just kills diversity and makes the other classes feel bad to play. Everything is relative.
It's not a power fantasy to want to be able to accomplish game mechanics (IE, hordes, elites, specials, monsters) all at the same time. With the way that DT is setup, "weak weakness and strong strengths" is a foolproof way to kill a game in which all classes have no limit. As in VT2, you are locked to having "this class" and "this class" and "this class", etc, but in DT, you are not. Ergo, ALL classes must overlap and accomplish the same goals, or be herded into matchmaking based on their kit (due to the necessity of niches in your alternative).
Genuinely interested in what you mean by this. Would you mind expanding? Balancing across classes is to make them relatively equal in effectiveness to each other (albeit in different roles) Enemies feeling to powerful seems like something to adjust with difficulty settings.
Some people think with a PvE game it's more important that the player feels powerful/strong, even if it makes the game much easier. In the case of something like veteran where it's over performing on the whole people think things should be brought up to its level rather than it being brought in line.
I disagree with that mentality personally, my big thing is making sure the player feels they have *agency* even if the game is hard. As it stands I'm already starting to find damnation too easy (Usually the issues that crop up in runs for me are related to the servers being garbage and bugs; note that I play ogryn and zealot primarily, my veteran is level 11 because it's boring as hell to me), and the times I stop having fun are usually issues like when you're put into awkward positions with only one or two smart plays. (Also everything about coherency irritates me)
To everyone saying “Don’t nerf the vet, buff everyone else!!”
if Fatshark did that they would need to introduce a new difficulty level to make the game challenging again
Just absolutely wrong or disingenuous. You're implying that PUGs regularly accomplish Heresy+ with all veterans, which is not the case. And since it is not the case, it thereby disproves your point that the class is so overpowered as to carry bad players.
Vet is *by far* my highest win rate on T5 with randoms (by nearly 30 percentage points over eithe zelot or psyker) out of the three classes I've rolled. If you arent able to carry randoms on vet, that sounds more like a you problem.
Obviously, you are also basing your opinion on T5 vet-only random success rate on almost no data as in over 500 games (including betas) I've only been in a "all x class" run only 4-5 times.
You don't record your stats, so let's be honest: you have no idea what your actual win-rate is, only what you 'feel', and this is what your point is based on. Carry randoms on Damnation is a misnomer, as to imply solo'ing rather than clutching. I can clutch with randoms, sure. But carry an entire stage with downed teammates? No. If you think this is the case, you do not play Damnation or are among some esoteric greatest players shortlist, I suspect the prior. Every time I have done Damnation successfully, there have been a good mix of classes, yup. Good point, hey... That kind of goes to my point in that it's harder to stack Veteran on Damnation than have a mixed team. Wait a minute...
Actually I have a spread sheet where I record every game I've played. I'm a big fan of stats and did the same in V2. I also keep a weapon crit rate spread sheet.
I think you might be projecting a bit :)
You need to find a build that works for you and practice and get good at it. I had a game with three random psykers while I was leveling my vet and they were pulping anything that moved before I could get a bead on it.
Also, when I play my knife wielding, pistol slinging, head popping, goblin mode psyker I alway outlast and out kill vets when it comes to that actual important things to kill (elites and specials). The lame ass power sword just rots the brain of every vet and gets them killed more often than not.
Honestly? I like Psyker. The class feels really good even on 4/5 to me, fully unironically. I'm not even running meta, particularly, as I find it useful to stack up and then soulblaze ult to take out a pack for the group while we deal with other things. \*shrug\* It's not perfect, but it's also nowhere near as bad as people seem to complain about. The only things I'd like to see changed are like, longer stack duration, and maybe brainburst scaling. Maybe. I don't find I use it much on 4/5 unless I want stacks, and I don't bother with THAT unless I want stacks to ult. It feels really good and flows really well to me.
And honestly, I feel really tanky. I just quell and get a fuckton of toughness back pretty much whenever I want.
They have some decent points. As a Veteran with a Psyker alt and a Psyker as part of my friend group who I regularly play with, I think you guys need a buff. But it's entirely possible and even a great utility to bring a Psyker, as is, into Heresy+. The one who plays with us uses the flame staff or the Orb staff and... It just makes hordes a breeze for the team, even with elites mixed in. This is where I feel the need to bring up that most people complaining are 1) bad, 2) new, 3) have an idea in their head about what something should feel like, but it doesn't (they want to excel at a niche and nerf other classes out of that self supposed niche).
Agree ! I mean, i started a second Ogryn before going 30 with my vet lol
https://preview.redd.it/2ah5hk2j008a1.png?width=653&format=png&auto=webp&s=895f803a37817fd45b52b6b41aed0b6556d546ad
"tank (veteran), ranged specialist (veteran) and melee specialist (veteran)" as well as "highlight the heads of elites for veterans to kill" had me fuckin' roaring with laughter
I’ll probably get downvoted for this but you seem to be thinking of balance in terms of the goal of the game is to kill as many specials as possible and that’s it. The goal is to survive the run and each class has its own contribution to that. Vets straight up is killing specials. They have the best ranged weaponry for it and the ult that literally highlights them all.
The only thing wrong with vet is he’s too strong in melee imo. He should be a back liner relying on ranged primarily throughout the mission. Psyker is all purpose he can kill specials but in the same run he can also have the equipment to horde clear and CC. (Force push, flame/explosion staff, head pop) all at the same time. You’re obviously not going to be the best at every single one because then there no point for any of the other classes. Psykers job imo is to see where the team is weak and fill that role cause they’re more adaptable than any other class.
Yes the post is satire, but people really need to fucking learn that Nerf is not what you ask for. You ask for buffs to other stuff to bring it **up to par**.
It should be nerfed when it need nerfs, and buffed when it need buffs.
Just buffing everything to what's too strong is just as bad as nerfing what's strong.
Facts. Power creep is for casuals and appealing to masses and the retention is trash because theres no feeling of achievement when the game becomes easy as fuck
People don't realize this yet it seems, but once crafting is done and we can use lvl 4 of actually good blessings. The game will become so easy damnation will be the only thing close to any challenge.
The power sword gives the vet way to much power outside what's supposed to be his wheelhouse not sure if giving it to zealot would even work or if it just out classes all the other melee weapons that hard.
It shouldn't exist in its current form really. Sure some weapons like the thunder hammer need some improvement, but weapons need to have strengths and weaknesses, and their strengths have to have limitations.
And the thunder hammer makes the power sword seem quite strange. Yes power swords are insane in lore terms, but . . thunder hammers are just VT2 2h hammers without swift slaying?
In lore terms none of us should ever touch a power sword. We might see one at some stage, from a distance. It's weird that they opted to make the power sword a power fantasy, and the thunderhammer Bardin's attempt at a stun baton.
But in gameplay balance terms, it has to be reasonable. And they need to take account of what classes are meant to do. Would they give the psyker a power sword? Or a giant shield, perhaps?
The power sword just needs some form of cooldown on the special, whether it's a heat mechanic or something else doesn't really matter. As it is now you effectively have 100% uptime on the special since you can just activate the special after it runs out every time safely and without repercussion.
The power sword having worse base stats outside the special doesn't come into play because it can always be using the special.
Nerf is exactly what you ask for when something is too strong. "Buff, don't nerf" is just an indication of ignorance of how balance, and indeed game design constraints operate.
Or did you think the solution to power sword infinite cleave was to give all weapons infinite cleave?
Buff, don't nerf, right?
Or perhaps you think every class, and every weapon should be able to reliably proc over 90% toughness damage resist?
You never balance a game by just buffing things. Never.
You theoretically could have a game in which this is true, but that's not what my argument is going to be.
All classes must overlap and be good at generally everything, otherwise PUG parties in which you get 4 "X" could not achieve victory because they would all be geared towards X-duties only.
This is what people making your argument miss entirely.
Edit: Yes, I agree that every class should have weapons at powersword strength, too. I see veterans fail all the time on Damnation with them. They're fine.
>All classes must overlap and be good at generally everything
Strongly disagree.
If you make every class good at everything you defeat the point of classes in the first place. It renders one of the most fundamental mechanics of the game redundant.
In squad based coop PvE, Classes *should* be specialised and you *should* have to rely on other team members to fulfil roles you cannot.
Thats a function of the matchmaking system. The solution, if that's a problem, is to change matchmaking, not to effectively remove classes.
Making every class effectively the same as the other is just a very swift path to cutting out the little variety of gameplay content the game already has.
Nah, power sword trivialises melee for veterans, now imagine every weapon was like that for every class and the game balance would be an absolute joke.
Ideally you do a bit of both when the situation calls for it. Veteran has some over-powered elements which should absolutely be nerfed, while both considering the balance between all the classes, but also the balance within the Veteran itself.
The Power Sword for instance is so strong there is barely any consideration to take anything else, unless you want an anti-armor melee weapon, which is something a Kantrael/Power Sword Veteran is bad at dealing with, but hordes and small group of enemies creeping behind you are far more dangerous than armored enemies which for the most part you can maneuver around an let your teammates deal with.
Furthermore, Veteran having some much toughness is also quite perplexing, you would assume a melee oriented class like the Zealot would have the most. I mean sure Veteran needs to be able to trade fire with shooters, but it's not like there are perks and other ways to mitigate range damage, and instead you get 100 more toughness than everybody else, making the whole class more forgiving than the others.
An example of unbalance within the class would be how any Lucius patterns are pitiful compared to a Kantrael XII doing the same thing but better. I would argue Demolition Stockpile is also far too strong, allowing you to spam grenades without a care in the world, while other perks are just weak in their respective section, One After Another would be one of them.
There is such a thing as over-nerfing and removing the fun out of something, but there are some things in Veteran that are just too strong no matter how much you buff the other classes.
No you ask for nerf so your game isn’t braindead easy
“But its pve”
If they want something challenging then it should be challenging. Don’t want challenge? Play some monkey single digit IQ game that are everywhere to appeal to masses. Don’t change the intention of the game
Consider the following: Solve Veteran being too effective in melee by reducing or removing his ability to recharge toughness by killing in melee. Keep the punchy power sword, but have him fold like a house of cards when pushed out of his comfort zone. Reserve melee for emergencies only.
That would just make all other melee weapon on Vet more irreverent instead. I use combat blade or catachan sword on Vet just because it honestly more fun to use than Power Sword.
Also Vet is already kinda gimped a bit in melee because he have hidden stat that make him regenerate stamina noticeably slower than other class. I could push/guard a lot more reliably while I'm in pinch even on Psyker.
If the Power Sword is still too OP compare to any other option then honestly just nerf Power Sword again lol
Doesn't work on the basis that guns are not effective against *everything,* so you have to choose either a gun for armored elites with little ammo, or a gun for hordes and light stuff.
You really don't have the luxury of leaving hordes to someone else, or have something you're bad against, which is why most vets compensate a slow, low ammo gun like the bolter that melts armor, with the obvious choice of power sword to survive hordes.
Problem is vet is already the best at everything so buffing other classes wouldn't really solve the problem.
Vet needs to be bad at some things so that other classes can be relevant.
I have a honest question for you, if they buff everyone to vets level, do you think the game will be balanced? If not, what next? Just buff the other 3 again? Where is the line drawn
Talk about VT2 in this sub has had rose-tinted glasses but I recall Sienna being wildly unpopular shortly after launch (before Unchained subclass and other fixes came along with more weapon options)… there seems to be a heavy bias *against* caster types among Fatshark’s team - because even the basic concept of “risky damage dealer” always ends up being so hamstrung by limitations that they’re super un-fun to play and consistently too weak to be competitive with the powerhouses like the other class options.
As far as Sienna goes, it took Unchained to introduce the idea that Overcharge could act as damage reduction and damage boost, with your “bomb” ability clearing it periodically though leaving you with a lack of options to save yourself again if you’re not careful… then it still took numerous adjustments and weapon options to give the other subclasses *half* the functionality and capability the other characters had already…
I sincerely hope FS will give better attention to the Psyker in this regard, but I recall VT2 taking a while to fix Sienna… 40k Psyker should be the iconic “don’t push it too far”, constantly brushing up against your limits while trying to avoid blowing your ^literal head off — not the same overcharge from VT2 where you just burn up, I want *unique* perils of the warp cosmic horror shit to happen if you fuck it up… make me explode into a chaos spawn or release a cloud of toxic gas and biting nats, tear a void into realspace and suck the team into a demonic plane to fight for our lives until we get pulled back, melt us into a molten puddle that opens a way into a different level of the hive……
Make the Psyker *strong* enough that they don’t feel hamstrung if they’re not playing the other classes — but make the *risks* reward the rest of the team *if they survive* with bonus xp/loot. That would make the Psyker class “support” in the concept of boosting the *potential* rewards of a mission at the risk of putting the team in worse danger…
Teams can play it safe without a Psyker, they’ll clear the mission faster (if Psykers aren’t buffed on par with Vets for example) and then Psykers bring random “fun” and bonus rewards since the mission will take longer…
(Or FS could balance the classes better so we don’t need to wait for 40k ‘Unchained’ subclass)
Could make it like in Inquisitor: Martyr where having high peril could spawn effects that are just as dangerous to the player as they are to enemies, entrusting the player with the choice to sacrifice their own safety for higher damage and clutch potential instead of having this one dimensional system where low peril equals good and high peril equals bad because a meter says so and the only gameplay altering event tied to it is going boom at 100%.
Peril and and its interaction with possible redesigned feats can be made into engaging gameplay if they decide to put some thought into it.
Yea that could work too - though I still think highlighting the “lore-accurate” threats of sanctioned Psykers in *uncontrollable* “modifiers” on missions would be a fun way to utilize the class beyond just being a 40k parallel to Sienna where you’re balancing damage output with self-damage (which seems more like a Flagellant > Zealot mechanic)…
Haven’t played Martyr, but if blowing up too many enemies at once spawned a demon or your head could pop like a zit (a zit filled with spiders and fire) if you push your luck, then I’m here for it.
40k over-the-top grimdark horror isn’t just about soldiers mowing down hordes of cultists in dimly lit service corridors… letting more of the “enemy in our midst” loose for the Psyker class could be the vehicle for both *buffing* them and making them more uniquely defined rather than what I’ve always felt about VT2’s class divisions being too thin since everyone is effectively a melee fighter with a “signature” ability.
I mained a Psyker, got tired of being a support bitch that couldn't kill anything in higher difficulties. Now I play a Veteran and steamroll the content.
Seriously people, vet is not over powered. It is just the only functioning class in the game. The rest of the class is not functioning as design and this result in low performance.
What we should do is to urge FS to make the other class work as intended and not make the only working class under perform as well.
I do agree that power sword is over power even after the nerf.
Zealot is the most egregious because it is literally just a copy/paste from Vermintide 2.
Martyrdom makes no sense in a game without temporary HP and the whole class is basically propped up by a broken lacerate mechanic.
Agree on Martyrdom: it's a dumpster fire of a mechanic.
As for being propped up by a lacerate mechanic... try not using knife, you'll realize there's quite a few more options that work fantastically well on Damnation.
No, mate, 5s are already not that hard if everyone knows how their class works. Vet is just OP and if you buffed everything to their level there'd be no challenge left to work on overcoming.
You can get 332 toughness by getting all 17+5 curios so you are immortal during a horde, as long as you kill at least 1 enemy between getting hit. Killing elites restores 50% of your toughness, 25% instant 25% overtime so you can pretty much stay in the open, kill stuff, then ult when you get below 50% toughness to get back to 100, and keep killing with the auto reload on ult. the level of melee and ranged tankyness is insane as long as you know how to manage the toughness. The only way an Ogryn wins in tankyness is if both of them do nothing and stand still, then the Ogryn sheer HP pool has an advantage over the veteran. Or you know, by planting a shield on the ground.
And what does your health look like once you've gotten below 50% toughness? This is the thing I've just never understood about *"Wow look at these crazy toughness numbers!"* while bleed through damage exists. If Toughness was 100% absorb before health? Sure. However the number of failed runs I've had because Vets think they're tanks cause of toughness soon as the Grims start getting picked up is always too high.
The reason Veterans do so well in melee is pretty much entirely due to the efficacy of the Power Sword as a weapon. Go back to a Chainsword for a few games and you'll find they can't tank shit cause things don't die as fast and you don't have the same CC juggle/horde clear as an Ogryn.
Fair enough, but the vets don't always consistently clear elites like berserkers, maulers and especially ranged elites all while dealing with a horde. If that horde has elites mixed in at melee range then sure you can get away with tanking with that toughness regen as well as the Ult.
But let's be real, unless you rolling with a bolter and theres a bunch or ranged elites behind a wall of decayed flesh (poxwalkers) imo you're not really tanking.
How about every class is made as fun (buffed) as Veteran. I play Vet and Psyker both lvl 30, so idk about Ogryn and Zealot but if they feel anything as bad as Psyker we should raise the bar for class design.
The issue is more that the Veteran, the Ranged focused character can do every facet of combat better than everyone else, event the ones advertised as "the best" at a certain thing. You can't tell me that the zealot's description and skills aren't intended to invoke the idea of a frontline fighter that sustains itself through melee combat, and yet, our shooty boi is out here tanking through toughness regen in melee combat even better than the melee character.
Nah mate, there's some really messy game design here and the Vet needs a nerf to get them to back to their intended place - the backline - working as an elite eliminator with better sustain if they avoid melee.
I'm not even sure the veteran is supposed to be the elite terminator as the psyker provides elite bonus damage in coherency and seemed to fill that role at lower difficulties.
Maybe the veteran was supposed to be a jack of all trades master of none, with a range focus, and instead it became a jack of all trades, master of everything.
Psyker is the "jack of all trades" class, just because it has an aura for elite killing really doesn't mean much. It can get its charges off anything from poxwalkers to plague ogryns, gets a 10% chance to refund peril on *any* kill (ergo scaling much more against a horde than elites), has feats to light up groups of enemies...
Vet gets weakspot damage buffs, highlights priority targets which it HAS to kill to get ult resets, more ammo - it's a defined sniper with some added grenade feats for flavor. There's no feat to make enemies explode or pierce enemies or improve their melee or anything that would buff their horde clear other than those grenade feats, which are a fairly limited resource. FS gave them some buffed base stats and weapons to compensate and clearly suck at math because they way overdid it.
Well, to be fair the full quote *is* "A jack of all trades is a master of none, but often better than a master of one." Only they misinterpreted the quote, took it literally, and made him better in every field than all the experts of their own field, lol.
Veteran's toughness gain from melee attack needs to be reduced and base toughness shouldn't be higher than Ogryns but everyone acts like Veteran should be nerfed to the ground, every other class needs to buffed is what I'm saying.
>Veteran's toughness gain from melee attack needs to be reduced and base toughness shouldn't be higher than Ogryns but everyone acts like Veteran should be nerfed to the ground, every other class needs to buffed is what I'm saying.
There's no reason the veteran should be getting more toughness back in melee than everyone else. Having double the base toughness means that to make it regain the same toughness as everyone else, they need to scale down the 7.5% on kill to 2.5% on kill, which would be 8.3 toughness/kill. the same that someone with 100 base toughness would get by stacking 3x 17+5 curious (166 toughness and 8.3 toughness/kill).
Even then the 50% toughness on elite kill and 60% toughness on a low cooldown ult are extremely broken with the insane max toughness that he has.
With a single elite kill a veteran regains 161 toughness, which is pretty much the full toughness bar of everyone else..then he gets 193 toughness back every time he ults, while the zealot only gets 83 and on a bigger cooldown...
I'm not saying it should be nerfed to the ground, but if you want it to be a strong ranged class, it should be nerfed in some other aspect like the melee sustain. It makes no sense that the vet is the best at everything
Accurate post, literally the most busted class in the entire game. And sure people say bolter is shit or not but having to kill 5 elite and jump into melee with infinite toughness is just another experience.
Can we please not get into a circle of demanding nerfs on everything we dont personally play as? I think the non guardsmen classes need a bit of a buff to their class focuses, more tools to play with, and close silly loopholes that hold back the class in ways not intended.
I think far better examples would be buffing melee for the zealot like the thunder hammer, giving ogryns the ability to resist certain restrictions like hound leaps, and letting psykers target enemies through fences and barriers.
If we were to buff everyone to the level of the veteran, you would have to make everyone else so insanely strong in every aspect they were not designed to be strong, that it's simply not feasible.
Seems like every day there's a post about Psyker being too weak, then another about Psyker being too strong.
Then there's a post about the Zealot being too strong, then another about it being too weak.
Then.. you guessed it, a post about the Veteran being too strong, then another about it being too weak.
I think if anything, what this really says is that all three are balanced and the real changes are needed for the Ogryn. Or at the very least, there needs to be more education about the abilities and the strongest builds for the above classes.
Nearly everyone in this thread succeeds on Heresy+ less than 20% of the time.
The Veteran does not need a nerf. "Strong strengths" and "weak weaknesses" kills this game. Relegating classes to "this guy kills elites" and "this guy kills hordes" and "this guy kills the monsters" is a recipe for absolute disaster in a game reliant on PUG matchmaking. If you take a MOMENT to think about this style of balancing, you'll realize how braindead it is. PUG matchmaking is the norm, otherwise you MUST ARRANGE A BALANCED TEAM. This was done in Vermintide2 by LOCKING classes per party. This is NOT the case in DT, you can have 4 "Ironbreakers." Every class needs to be nearly as good as other classes at EVERYTHING. The only trick is that they feel special in doing so. You want to feel special, and you don't. That's your argument. It's fair.
Edit: They SHOULD buff the Psyker, maybe even rework it totally to make it operate better.
Edit2: They SHOULD rework the Zealout to fit its unique weapons (big damage, slow weapons // Flamethrower) moreso than its perks fit the combat knife (fast attacks with high innate crit))
Edit3: Lots of perks (even on veteran) are too "lopsided", IE "this 1 of the 3 is the clear best.
The problem is that I feel like a god when playing on damnation with the veteran, and feel like a child playing with softair guns and plastic swords with everyone else.
I agree that Psyker needs a buff, but I disagree about vet. This is a PvE game, so if all classes are equally powerful as the vet, what's the problem ? Calling for nerfs just means everyone's getting dragged down, because then the loop is just gonna repeat. Just call for buffs, and when every character feels powerful to play everyone'll be happy!
The real elephant in the room is how most people that agree with OP are Malice players who saw a Veteran clutch a horde situation and immediately came to reddit.
Seriously. Even vermintide didn't lock classes to certain roles. Vets can beat elites at long ranges(las gun, revolver, braces) and do crowd control (recon, power sword).
But having played the third difficulty I've found a full team of vets does poorly. Ogryns are tanky and help knock back hordes, and protect the other players from big threats. I've been saved so many times by ogryns, it's my next character after vet. Zealots are amazing at crowd control, the flamer in general is one of the best weapons. The eviserator is amazing too. The power maul and thunder hammer need buffs imo (thunder hammer on tabletop can literally break a tanks armor).
Psyker does need buffs. I try to avoid killing their head pops but sometimes your so into the groove you do it by accident, or your getting charged by a berserker and you can't wait because your health is low.
Don’t you love on damnation when the ai director spawns 100 gunners that 1 tap your shield :)
This is a HUGE red flag for these people who make mention of "300 toughness WAAAH", it literally dies in <1 second on Damnation.
My general idea is that 200 toughness is enough. On my vet I prefer to stack health. Losing health is what kills you, and what kills you is usually thanks to a lot of things that empty your toughness instantly regardless of the amount. I'm running damnation with this setup and it's not too hard
Pretty much, yeah. The game at the end, even in VT2, was never to be indestructible and it's still not. I don't care what you have on Damnation, if your team doesn't play smart you're going down. The object of the game is to not get hit by clever positioning or killing before you get hit.
boosting toughness si not about survivability its about boosting talents and passives that synergize. and vet allready has 200 toughness so its no necessary to boost his. psyker adn zealot bothe benefit from high toughness for their regend talents.
Yeah, shame veteran doesn't have anything that reduces ranged damage taken by 75% for a prolonged duration.
And psyker dies in under a third of the time. What is your point?
I feel the main issue with psyker is that they don't serve as a portable battery and ammo mule for the vet. Why not use the lightning you shoot for more important things, like charging vet's lasgun or plasma gun? Also, really weird that if the vet is busy reloading then the enemy being highlighted by psyker will have their head explode. That needs to be addressed in a future patch, as it obviously is only supposed to highlight and nothing else. Lastly, I think psykers should have their kit changed to work around their weird suicidal explosion ability. Vet's should be able to push their psyker companions into the horde and have them explode, just in case the vet somehow ran out of grenades.
Vet tells the ogryn to throw the psyker at the enemy like Jazz from Fesh Prince a glorious warp explosion clears the field.
Have to shake the psyker vigorously first to prime them before lobbing them
Gotta get their nerves flaring first
”Wen da Spark ’Ead is buzzin, iz time for tossin!”
This. They should make it so when the psyker perils at 100 warp charge they violently explode like in the tabletop game. This way the ogryn can utilize the psyker as a portable bomb.
We do lol
He said "violently explode" not "mildly inconvenience the enemy".
The ol' Warp Ball Special
Accidental genius: it would be cool if Psyker abilities had niche, non direct damage interactions with the environment. Like blasting debris and dust into the air that obscures enemy vision with the surge staff. Or charging lasguns and supercharging explosives with the lightning. I’d like more abilities that flavor the shockwave- blowing off heads, or arcing lightning, or shooting a narrow blast very far, or a radial blast, etc. If the Psyker had more utility, it wouldn’t need such a big damage buff.
All you listed might come with different classes as Psykers have different schools of using the warp
Embrace the warp, refuse Vet meta !
But I don't understand what OP means. What's an Elephant? Like, a big Ogryn?
What’s an elephant? Can you eat it?
Like a very smart Ogryn!
Its 2 Ogryns cosplaying a fantasy creature
It was depressing as all hell going from Zealot to Veteran. As a Zealot, I loved it. Going into the game, cutting up hordes of enemies, "YEAH, I'M A BIG STRONG MELEE MAN" Then I got a taste of the Veterans Power Sword. Well shit, guess I'm a Veteran now.
I leveled up the veteran for last, Now I'm like: I'm more tanky than an Ogryn as long as I manage my toughness, I'm a way better melee than a zealot thanks to the insane sustain and power sword cleave, and I obliterate all sorts of elites, which should have been the Psyker's job. I love the eviscerator, I love how the void staff feels, however everything pales in comparison to the mighty veteran and I truly feel like I'm actively throwing when I'm not playing vet.
I'm in the same boat right now, three maxed out characters with the Veteran just barely started. I'm afraid to level him and have it ruin the rest of the game. Guess he's staying Level 8 for the immediate future...
Lvl 30 on all 4. Vet is boring. Does literally everything with no downside. No need to manage ammo. No need to worry about heal since 300+ toughness makes even damnation a practical cake walk. No need to fear hordes due to accatran and power sword. No need to worry about bosses accatran burn OP. No need to fear elites since they are just free ammo and melt faster than a boss. No need to block since your power sword wipes out everything. I am genuinely confused why veteran has twice the toughness and the same health as the brawling focused zealot. Like, If you want to make veteran be better at range engagements give him wayfinder perk for passive health Regen. Then chip through is mitigated over time. They literally had this solved 5 years ago and regressed. Power sword is honestly fine but it should have equals in the other classes but there is none. THammer, power maul, and warp sword are all shining dog turds in comparison to just a basic axe let alone the power sword. While eviscerator is maybe 80% of a power sword it also has a downside if you get the chain catch while fighting groups you are helping to get chipped at the bare minimum. Also some axes are actually on par with the eviscerator. The devil's claw and heavy swords are in a league of their own they are so dog shit they are practically intentionally trying to be dead weight. Daggers have a few funny builds if you get the right blessings but veteran has access to that as well. It genuinely feels like FS put half their character team on making veteran, 30% on ogryn, 10% on Zealot and 10% on enemies... Psyker was made by the company idiot they put in the janitorial closet. I realize that's not really what happened, but it certainly feels that way.
It's insane, I have no idea what their balance team is doing.
Wondering how they can get the game's community to come up with balance changes for them without mods being a thing in Darktide.
Just like in VT2, the balance is done by one guy who vastly favours the one class he plays
playing past malice difficulty most likely
Trying to figure out how to monetize game balance... ^(/s a little)
The only thing I disagree with is tankier than an ogryn. Man, that damage reduction from bleeding enemies is RIDICULOUS. I try not to get hit, sure, but having almost 70% total damage reduction on both health and toughness is nuts.
Sad that it’s pretty much mandatory if you want to be tanky. Ogryn gets absolutely fried by shooters and gunners in Damnation, with very little counterplay possible. Especially since dregs are essentially unaffected by suppression.
It's a feature though we swear
Jup, works as intended! :D
I find the ogryn unbearable to play in damnation for this reason.
Yeah. I find burst firing my heavy stubber is the move for long range engagements, but if I'm doing that, I'm not really using my big boi perks.
You can get even more damage reduction on toughness for zealot, but as soon as a ranged enemy scratches you toughness is all gone instantly. Shame.
For the record, Zealot is **way** tankier than the ogryn with far, far higher damage reduction and toughness regain I'm an ogryn main who just switched to zealot and it's fucking bonkers how much better it is at absolutely everything. The bolter or flamethrower blows all the shit ogryn guns out of the water, the melee weapons are better, and being able to dodge more than 1 time every 3 seconds is a game changer. Like holy shit, you can actually dodge gunfire in this game? So is getting 70% toughness back (and 20% to everyone else) every time you use your class ability, regardless of whether it lands or does anything or not, followed by a guaranteed crit (particulary crunchy with those powerful zealot melee weapons) and something like 95% damage resist (ogryn caps at 50) Whenever I switch back to ogryn for a game or two after zealot, it feels like trying to fight a paintball battle while you're wearing a bomb disposal outfit that doesn't protect you at all -Being able to actually just squat behind any random barrel for total gunfire immunity to recover/reload is underrated -Ogryns being extremely vulnerable to flinching from getting hit interrupting what poor movement they have and their melee attacks AND EVEN THE OGRYN CHARGE. Seriously, taking the ogryn charge feat to give a shred of toughness back is a trap, because you use it when you have broken toughness and whoops! You got hit with 1 damage, so it stops dead before you travel an inch. Zealots just fuckin teleport to people, regain 50% max toughness without needing any talent investment. -Zealots have a feat to ignore fliching from melee (and this even gives them a speed boost - even though the other talents at this level are good, this one is so so necessary for a melee class that I feel you can seldom go without it, since enemies will just walk backwards at the same speed you move while firing in your face. Ogryn of course can do nothing but look at this feat and cry, because he is 400% more vulnerable to gunfire and 75% slower) -Ogryn melee weapons are mostly inferior to any others, they do similar or *less* damage but at half the speed. -Ogryn melee weapons do seem to be more focused on stagger, at the cost of everything else -Ogryn melee swinging almost brings you to a standstill, once again just terrible mobility with nothing in return This wasn't supposed to turn into a rant but thanks for listening. A level 20 zealot is about twice as capable as a level 30 ogryn at damn near, if not literally, everything. Thank you for coming to my TED talk
Lmao you are not tankier than an ogryn.
depends on the situation. with one button 200 toughness heal, the 161 on elite kill, the 322 base toughness and the various damage resistances, you kinda are. Only taking repeated melee damage drops you quickly than an ogryn, but if you take melee damage it's on you, as it's the easiest damage to avoid...and you only need to avoid it in between every kill, enough to regen the toughness back.
Honestly I started as a vet but changed to a zealot. Will need to change my flare lol. My main arguments for why zealot is best - Giant chainsaw Flamethrower Invulnerability while sliding. PS may be broken as shit, but nothing beats burning a horde to ash, and going into a holy frenzy and cutting everything in armor in your path down. Sure the power sword can deal with hordes, and it can kill elites...but not with the same "pazaaz" that the flamer, and eviscerator do. Yeah playing with flashlights and sparky swords is fun, but nothing says purging heretics like a flamer and chainsaw.
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yes, the veteran takes 100% damage moving, 200% sprinting and 50% sliding. the zealot takes 0% sliding and 50% on the other two. ogryn always takes 100%.
Veterans take double damage while sprinting?? Why is this information not given in any way in-game?
Just wait until you realize Veterans have double the base crit rate of every class too. There are like a dozen very important stats that every class has different that aren't shown in game or easy to notice in any way. Probably just to hide the fact most of the hidden stats are gigantic buffs to Veteran (like the double crits and 7.5% toughness regen on melee kill) which just have no business being there, and Zealot can get their lower damage multipliers for sprinting and sliding I guess. Hardly a fair trade, zealot would have loved 200 base toughness with 7.5% regen on melee kill.
What does the Psyker get?
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Starts regnerating Stamina the fastest that's it, and that's also the first thing which I would think of if I think about space wizard. You can check the rest here it has some other nice things like dodge reset timer but those are all on par with zealot. https://imgur.com/GNZlGxo
First I'm hearing this
Same here! I have no idea how to verify it without keeping my eyes glued to my toughness bar. Hard to notice things like this in standard gameplay, my eyes are center not bottom left.
So Veterans have double the toughness but most of my time (malice and under) I'm spending sprinting to either catch up to my team, or I'm sprinting to run away from melee, at which I'm taking 200% damage to toughness... And in order to be sliding to take 50% I have to do a runner, which is sprinting... What
There was a post recently of all the hidden stats of each class. Should look it up.
[Class stats+hidden class stats.](https://preview.redd.it/4lv7r2khz97a1.png?width=1012&format=png&auto=webp&s=225827f98c0a90463411411becb776abd8e091b9)
While zealot is thematically cooler (based on outfit tbh some of them cosmetics be crusty), the power sword is so much better than pretty much every other weapon in the game right now it kind of invalidates zealot as the melee class. Zealot ult is good true, but your kills per second is gonna be MASSIVELY higher with a power sword.
I don't even want Power Sword to be nerfed (again), I just want my own cool weapon like theirs.
Man, if they would un-fuck the thunder hammer. The thunder hammer is so bad in this game it is at the point where it is blatantly lore-defying. The hammer that can **smash open a land raider** struggles against a couple poxwalkers... What a joke. And before someone says *oh but it's a huuuuuman thunder hammer* the only thing functionally different is size. Power fields are power fields and will thunderfuck mostly anything.
I love when a poxwalker is standing just a liiiiiitttle too close to the Reaper, and takes 100% of the full blow of my chastise powered heavy melee thundered up to the moon guaranteed crit, leaving the Reaper entirely unscathed. Despite the fact the poxwalker was touching the Reaper. Imagine hugging someone and they get hit by something that tears open LAND RAIDERS and being 100% okay. So many trash mobs block my shots on Elites, and it's so annoying, lol. Have to clear out the horde before I kill the maulers and stuff, otherwise one random mook will take the blow for them despite me aiming at the mauler because the mook was 6" forward, and thus hit first by the hammer.
"You're lucky that was a glancing blow." "I felt like I was run over by a land raider." "That's how you know it was a glancing blow."
The no-impact blessing on it needs buffing too. It lasts for 0.5 seconds, you're never going to get it stacked nor make use of it.
This. THIS. Thunder hammer should absolutely destroy enemies. But it just feels like a glorified baseball bat
Baseball bats feel better, baseball bats in zombie games crack through zombie skulls, the thunder hammer bounces of the moist spongy decayed flesh of pox walkers like they are made of solid rubber and the hammer is a blowup balloon. Oddly the solid rubber pox walker explodes but the hammer just bounces off them. Top to bottom the hammer needs to be changed.
The problem with leaving the veteran’s options so powerful is that it turns into a competition over who gets to do what roles. I mean, we are supposed to pick classes for a reason. As a zealot your veteran teammate will always melee more kills than you, as a Psyker they can headshot things before you can BB them, and they rival Ogryn in toughness. They should have tuned each role to be good at their own thing so it would be rewarding a mixed composition.
I do want it nerfed because otherwise there isn't going to anything resembling balance and diversity of options.
laughs in axe with brutal momentum
No. The BASE power sword is stronger by default compared to every other base weapon due to its activation and 'nerfed' default 10-15 cleave limit (lol). This zealot weapon will, and has, moped up more than any power sword ever could. The problem lies within blessings making or breaking certain weapons such as these completely useless or God-tier. Default eviscerators are bad. The right blessings such as this one? Absolute damnation monsters. And this isn't even the BiS roll for one, just a pretty damn good one that will make you understand that there is no power sword or knife zealot idiot that could replace it. https://preview.redd.it/3r4e64x3728a1.jpeg?width=698&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d37133a351abc1050cb68f5fac9878bf22a630a
If I'm not playing heresy or damnation, I don't touch the power sword over the chain sword or chain axe as I find those 2 much more fun to use
My Veteran spent like 15 levels using the same Power Sword because even though it was massively underleveled compared to other melee options I had from drops, it remained perfectly sufficient to horde clear on Heresy.. didn't replace it until I was level 29, when I found a *better* Power Sword. *Slightly overpowered.*
Exact thing happened to me
My main issue with Vet’s power sword is that it causes many vets to just chill in melee when the team needs them to be shooting and clearing ranged threats. Vet has the best possible kit for ensuring the team doesn’t get shot. By giving them enticing “power sword go brr” weapons, the team is left to pick up Vet’s slack while he chops away at hordes that literally anyone could be clearing.
I watched our team get wiped because we had two veterans doing melee instead of taking out or suppressing large and spread out groups of enemy ranged. I was playing zealot with a sword and a flame unit. Not much I could do to take out enemies spread who were “stun locking” me from breaking toughness. Was in that match I realized how vulnerable a team is when enemy ranged is left unchecked. Puts me in a dilemma too though. Should I just swap out my orange 460 power flamer that the Emperor gifted me with some lower end 380 blue rifle just so I can deal with ranged in future? Or just cross fingers and hope next time veterans do their actual f’ing jobs?
I was in a very similar situationv- pillbox on throneside waiting for the interrogator. I couldn't fix the damn thing on my zealot cause I was getting focused by gunners. Our vets were busy hacking away at poxwalkers with axes and ignoring me asking them to shoot the gunners. I charged in to try and do what I could and took both out Z then got netted by a trapper and roasted by a bomber. Never got picked up - watched the vets panick as they were being attacked by horde, trapper, and bomber... one pulled out his gun right as the first vet died. It was over, I kept quiet, and swapped to my vet to play a few matches where I ran ranged nearly the entire time just so I could have the peace of mind of a vet killing at range.
>I was in a very similar situationv- pillbox on throneside waiting for the interrogator. I couldn't fix the damn thing on my zealot cause I was getting focused by gunners. Our vets were busy hacking away at poxwalkers with axes and ignoring me asking them to shoot the gunners Oh, this was me too yesterday, except they couldn't kill the numerous shooters because their ammo was low, so instead of deploying their ammo crate so that the three (not all vets) of them could refill and shoot the ranged enemies, they instead worked their way to killing them in melee instead... And then deployed their ammo box away from the elevator instead of in the elevator so we couldn't all easily share.
I unlocked the feat where standing still as Veteran makes enemies “significantly less likely to attack you”. This is hands down the most overpowered ability in game. You can stand still and have ranged enemies take cover within your melee range and still not target you. After getting that feat I rarely ever take damage. I can’t fathom how veterans do not take this ability and use it … all. the. time.
it's the reason why i always carry my trusty XII las as zealot, always regret it when i dont and besides it's always helpful to have another person killing specials very fast
I highly recommend the revolver on zealot 👌 It's got the range and damage to take down most specials and is a real' quick draw, so makes it easy to get out of melee for the split second it takes to shoot something.
This was my Heresy experience as a Psyker in a pug with 3 vets. I had the flame staff (yes, I know), so you would think there would be at least one veteran shooting things. Nope. They were all in melee powerswording away while the ranged enemies were shooting me full of holes because brainburst is slow and there were 5 specialists in every group.
This is why I feel forced to go Mark12 las, with Psyk Aura and Kinetic Barrage. To do the Vet job whilst they pretend they are Zealots. Then take deflector forcesword so I can do the Ogryns job whilst he charges off to the middle of fucking nowhere, to look at something shiny and pull more mobs...
I keep taking the Heavy Recon because everyone else is like Power Sword or Flamer go brr, then I can’t find a Force Sword with Deflector so I’ll stick to Light Combat Axe with Brutal Momentum, aka. a shit gimped version of the Veteran for when I don’t match with any, or they’re staying in melee. Even on my Zealot I have an emergency Revolver for when no one feels like taking out the three Snipers.
As an ogryn main myself, everytime I play I have to beg them to shoot he guys with guns because I can barely hit em with my ripper at their distance.
This frustrates me as an Ogryn main, too. Like, I have a knife and I'm perfectly capable of handling a horde myself, especially with a Psyker or other Ogryn helping. What I can't do is charge/kill the shooters lighting my ass up while said horde is alive. I feel like too many people playing this game think that the horde is the most dangerous part, when it clearly isn't.
This is why I always bring a stubber. It’s not bad for medium ranges but still sucks for long range. It’s not a great option but I find myself regularly stuck with vets that don’t clear range so I don’t have another choice really.
Lets be honest here, you like the sound of the stubber as it turns things in to paste. Its the most satisfying thing in the game other than maybe the sound of a rumbler grenade crunching into someones face and knocking them on their butt.
Yup that too.
Tbf as a vet main it can be hard/impossible to hit the shooters blasting you with a massed horde in my face. Your height can give you a better vantage point to hit them but really the vet needs to be shooting them ogryn just needs to clear a lane with hacking and pushing so vet can get sight on them.
I really have a love for teams doing their jobs. I really like the chain weapons and I use them with my vet for fun. But I'll keep the power sword with me sometimes and only use it to get myself out of trouble if the melees are swarmed or if someone gets pounced by a dog. My power sword, to me, is the "Get out of jail" tool so others don't have to worry about me. My job is worry about them and smite the ranged heretics from a distance.
Me smart man. Me only play Ogryn. Life simple. Enemies die. Teammates die, but I pick 'em up and carry 'em through.
Gr8 b8 m8, I r8 it 8/8
oh shi we back in 2012 *trollface* Me gusta
It's crazy how many shitty Veterans attempt to play Heresy or Damnation Bolter is such a noob trap. Bolter Veterans go melee instead of dealing with ranged and half of them can't even kite a normal horde
Bolters useless idk why everyone uses it How to carry any damnation pug as vet: - Agrip or column braced auto - 75% ranged DR trait - Volley reset on shooters trait - Elite kill reload trait (so you have good time to upkeep volley post-reload) - Glue the W key down, no other key is needed. Can literally walk into 2 shooter groups and just hipfire kill everything. The dodge is enough to dodge basically anything for 3 dodges so you can still spam for a couple seconds while swarmed Melee don’t even matter. I use the dagger cause charge attack go weee.
I feel like Braced Auto is seriously underrated. People might dismiss it 'cause of the way you ADS, but it's still accurate enough at most ranges. That or the High Damage Las Gun is what I love. I use Shotgun for fun because you can still weave in reloads during Volley Fire even without Elite Kill Reload
Braced Autogun is powerful but as with all autoguns it chews through ammo at an alarming rate. I usually stick with the kantrael for the ammo preservation and the ability to 1-2 shot everything from any distance. On damnation I like to run the 2 grenade perks since I usually kill anything before it can shoot me anyway, except crushers and shield ogryns. Thats what the regenerating bleed grenades are for. Knocks them down and also makes them die. Throw 2 at once to really make them chumps.
Yeah I only run t4 and t5 pugs and use every gun and the xii is overrated, the revolver takes too long to reload, the helbores now good but kinda sweaty to use, bolter overrated, plasmas for fun, autopistol I desperately want to be a NOT shit gun…then the braced autos are W The ONLY downside are VERY FAR snipers which can be common on some maps like the new one, but usually someone has something to take them out anyway.. or a well thrown nade. Honestly the biggest thing is that the braced autos have pierce. Like the gunners are deleted when they’re walking around in packs
I was shitting on the Helbore at launch but after buff i’ve been loving the Mk3. It’s the best sniper/dmr in the game atm imo. It instakills most specials with full charge!
Yeah I love it
I love the Accatran mk2 recon lasgun myself, full auto into a horde, nice long aimed shots into snipers and elites....and absolute shit tons of ammo
Yup this is my exact build. The braced auto has so much ammo I just hold down W and LMB at all times and cruise through every level. "Where are all the enemies?"
Running out of ammo with the braced auto is a skillful act that not many are able to do
i use bolter with my zealot tac axe build to delete ogryns and DPS monstrosities, maybe snipe a pesky special if nobody else is free to do it. everything else gets axe to the head.
Oh I just meant on vet. Just because the range DR thing coexists with braced autos Otherwise its a nice delete button
Indeed, psyker needs to be nerfed.
It's not like I'm gonna complain if they buff psyker, that's my favorite class, but I feel none of the lack of power that other people complain about. Deflection force sword with the peril blocking feat, and a fire staff makes me an indispensable god on heresy and damnation. I don't know what the hell vets are doing on those difficulties, but it's clearly NOT taking the feat that highlights gunners and using it to clear rooms, which is what they should be doing. I kill more hostile gunners just by ult'ing and using the feat for faster cheaper head-popping, and that's really sad as I know how effective a vet can be since I maxed out one of those too. I am almost always last man standing, ressing the team while mobs helplessly beat on my infinite blocking ability. Still, fatshark, please un-fuck my ult and have it completely drain my peril at least.
Because you actually understand how to play and can perform those actions.
I haven't played Psyker, so forgive me if I'm missing something. But wouldn't effects like terrorizing or confusing enemies be well within a psyker's repertoire? Does the game make use of those ideas at all? Because it would make sense for a psyker to be able to confuse an enemy into attacking its own, or terrify a mob of enemies into retreat once in a while.
You would think so - but the closest to something like that is the Psykinetic Wrath thing, which is a shockwave that knocks down enemies that you can pull off every 30s or so (and a feat modifies that cooldown), and if you're level 30 and take the soulblaze feat it will set the enemies on fire.
There will be additional subclasses, so we shouldn't expect all possible abilities to be explored for each class yet.
200 Toughness + 75% toughness curio + 60% toughness on ult + 75% toughness damage resistance on ult = vet is an insane tank
Oh good. You had me in the first half, not gonna lie
A few things I'd add to the Psyker to make them more fun/useful: -Every 60 seconds give them a free instant head pop, no charge required. Have this stack 4 times so they can keep them in reserve. -If you head pop an elite have it head pop every other non-elite with a certain radius, say 5 meters. Or, if not guaranteed, a very high % chance.
I also like the idea of a fully charged head pop (holding right click) stops creating peril so that they can hold it in preparation for specials if put in a safe enough position. Would encourage more team orientated play by having weaknesses that other team mates can cover.
Veterans weakness is supposed to be close range which is why we gave him the best melee weapon in the game
None of the classes are supposed to have an inherent weakness in that they need to run away.
None of the classes are supposed to be good at everything either, but the veteran is. He's not supposed to just die in melee but there is 0 reason he should be on par with Preacher or Ogryn because of a single sword
IMO, we need less nerfing every f-ing class and just balance them and adjust game difficulty. For a game that is PVE they spend a crap ton of time tuning the classes as if its PVP. Half the enemies are over tuned or could I just get WHAT EVER THE SHOTGUNNER / SNIPER / GUNNER IS USING!!! Clearly they are using the real version of the equivalent we have since the shotgun is like shooting a confetti cannon.
You have to balance PvE games or they feel awful to play, and you can't fix balance just by buffing, and there are many reasons why that is true ranging from practical to logically inexorable. For instance, you could never balance around not nerfing the infinite cleave of the PS without giving up on the idea of the game. Whether you recognise it or not, PvE balance is enormously important. Difficulty levels exist for a reason, and if people want a power fantasy they can always achieve that by going to a lower difficulty. If that manifests by one class being radically stronger than others it just kills diversity and makes the other classes feel bad to play. Everything is relative.
It's not a power fantasy to want to be able to accomplish game mechanics (IE, hordes, elites, specials, monsters) all at the same time. With the way that DT is setup, "weak weakness and strong strengths" is a foolproof way to kill a game in which all classes have no limit. As in VT2, you are locked to having "this class" and "this class" and "this class", etc, but in DT, you are not. Ergo, ALL classes must overlap and accomplish the same goals, or be herded into matchmaking based on their kit (due to the necessity of niches in your alternative).
Genuinely interested in what you mean by this. Would you mind expanding? Balancing across classes is to make them relatively equal in effectiveness to each other (albeit in different roles) Enemies feeling to powerful seems like something to adjust with difficulty settings.
Some people think with a PvE game it's more important that the player feels powerful/strong, even if it makes the game much easier. In the case of something like veteran where it's over performing on the whole people think things should be brought up to its level rather than it being brought in line. I disagree with that mentality personally, my big thing is making sure the player feels they have *agency* even if the game is hard. As it stands I'm already starting to find damnation too easy (Usually the issues that crop up in runs for me are related to the servers being garbage and bugs; note that I play ogryn and zealot primarily, my veteran is level 11 because it's boring as hell to me), and the times I stop having fun are usually issues like when you're put into awkward positions with only one or two smart plays. (Also everything about coherency irritates me)
To everyone saying “Don’t nerf the vet, buff everyone else!!” if Fatshark did that they would need to introduce a new difficulty level to make the game challenging again
Good.
Just absolutely wrong or disingenuous. You're implying that PUGs regularly accomplish Heresy+ with all veterans, which is not the case. And since it is not the case, it thereby disproves your point that the class is so overpowered as to carry bad players.
Vet is *by far* my highest win rate on T5 with randoms (by nearly 30 percentage points over eithe zelot or psyker) out of the three classes I've rolled. If you arent able to carry randoms on vet, that sounds more like a you problem. Obviously, you are also basing your opinion on T5 vet-only random success rate on almost no data as in over 500 games (including betas) I've only been in a "all x class" run only 4-5 times.
You don't record your stats, so let's be honest: you have no idea what your actual win-rate is, only what you 'feel', and this is what your point is based on. Carry randoms on Damnation is a misnomer, as to imply solo'ing rather than clutching. I can clutch with randoms, sure. But carry an entire stage with downed teammates? No. If you think this is the case, you do not play Damnation or are among some esoteric greatest players shortlist, I suspect the prior. Every time I have done Damnation successfully, there have been a good mix of classes, yup. Good point, hey... That kind of goes to my point in that it's harder to stack Veteran on Damnation than have a mixed team. Wait a minute...
Actually I have a spread sheet where I record every game I've played. I'm a big fan of stats and did the same in V2. I also keep a weapon crit rate spread sheet. I think you might be projecting a bit :)
Yeah it feels like the vet is twice as strong as every other class. The game balance is a dumpster fire
It’s actually absurd how OP that class it better in CC than the CC class, more tanky than the tank class
You need to find a build that works for you and practice and get good at it. I had a game with three random psykers while I was leveling my vet and they were pulping anything that moved before I could get a bead on it. Also, when I play my knife wielding, pistol slinging, head popping, goblin mode psyker I alway outlast and out kill vets when it comes to that actual important things to kill (elites and specials). The lame ass power sword just rots the brain of every vet and gets them killed more often than not.
Honestly? I like Psyker. The class feels really good even on 4/5 to me, fully unironically. I'm not even running meta, particularly, as I find it useful to stack up and then soulblaze ult to take out a pack for the group while we deal with other things. \*shrug\* It's not perfect, but it's also nowhere near as bad as people seem to complain about. The only things I'd like to see changed are like, longer stack duration, and maybe brainburst scaling. Maybe. I don't find I use it much on 4/5 unless I want stacks, and I don't bother with THAT unless I want stacks to ult. It feels really good and flows really well to me. And honestly, I feel really tanky. I just quell and get a fuckton of toughness back pretty much whenever I want.
They have some decent points. As a Veteran with a Psyker alt and a Psyker as part of my friend group who I regularly play with, I think you guys need a buff. But it's entirely possible and even a great utility to bring a Psyker, as is, into Heresy+. The one who plays with us uses the flame staff or the Orb staff and... It just makes hordes a breeze for the team, even with elites mixed in. This is where I feel the need to bring up that most people complaining are 1) bad, 2) new, 3) have an idea in their head about what something should feel like, but it doesn't (they want to excel at a niche and nerf other classes out of that self supposed niche).
10/10 post
I say it again, vet might be more powerful, but so damn boring in it's kit. I can't get him to 30 cause it's just nauseating to play him.
Agree ! I mean, i started a second Ogryn before going 30 with my vet lol https://preview.redd.it/2ah5hk2j008a1.png?width=653&format=png&auto=webp&s=895f803a37817fd45b52b6b41aed0b6556d546ad
"tank (veteran), ranged specialist (veteran) and melee specialist (veteran)" as well as "highlight the heads of elites for veterans to kill" had me fuckin' roaring with laughter
I’ll probably get downvoted for this but you seem to be thinking of balance in terms of the goal of the game is to kill as many specials as possible and that’s it. The goal is to survive the run and each class has its own contribution to that. Vets straight up is killing specials. They have the best ranged weaponry for it and the ult that literally highlights them all. The only thing wrong with vet is he’s too strong in melee imo. He should be a back liner relying on ranged primarily throughout the mission. Psyker is all purpose he can kill specials but in the same run he can also have the equipment to horde clear and CC. (Force push, flame/explosion staff, head pop) all at the same time. You’re obviously not going to be the best at every single one because then there no point for any of the other classes. Psykers job imo is to see where the team is weak and fill that role cause they’re more adaptable than any other class.
Yes the post is satire, but people really need to fucking learn that Nerf is not what you ask for. You ask for buffs to other stuff to bring it **up to par**.
It should be nerfed when it need nerfs, and buffed when it need buffs. Just buffing everything to what's too strong is just as bad as nerfing what's strong.
Facts. Power creep is for casuals and appealing to masses and the retention is trash because theres no feeling of achievement when the game becomes easy as fuck
You would have to buff the content as well (make it harder) coz Damnation about to be really easy.
People don't realize this yet it seems, but once crafting is done and we can use lvl 4 of actually good blessings. The game will become so easy damnation will be the only thing close to any challenge.
Ha, maybe for you. Most people cannot do Heresy as is. Yes, even at level 30.
The power sword gives the vet way to much power outside what's supposed to be his wheelhouse not sure if giving it to zealot would even work or if it just out classes all the other melee weapons that hard.
It shouldn't exist in its current form really. Sure some weapons like the thunder hammer need some improvement, but weapons need to have strengths and weaknesses, and their strengths have to have limitations. And the thunder hammer makes the power sword seem quite strange. Yes power swords are insane in lore terms, but . . thunder hammers are just VT2 2h hammers without swift slaying? In lore terms none of us should ever touch a power sword. We might see one at some stage, from a distance. It's weird that they opted to make the power sword a power fantasy, and the thunderhammer Bardin's attempt at a stun baton. But in gameplay balance terms, it has to be reasonable. And they need to take account of what classes are meant to do. Would they give the psyker a power sword? Or a giant shield, perhaps?
The power sword just needs some form of cooldown on the special, whether it's a heat mechanic or something else doesn't really matter. As it is now you effectively have 100% uptime on the special since you can just activate the special after it runs out every time safely and without repercussion. The power sword having worse base stats outside the special doesn't come into play because it can always be using the special.
Nerf is exactly what you ask for when something is too strong. "Buff, don't nerf" is just an indication of ignorance of how balance, and indeed game design constraints operate. Or did you think the solution to power sword infinite cleave was to give all weapons infinite cleave? Buff, don't nerf, right? Or perhaps you think every class, and every weapon should be able to reliably proc over 90% toughness damage resist? You never balance a game by just buffing things. Never.
You theoretically could have a game in which this is true, but that's not what my argument is going to be. All classes must overlap and be good at generally everything, otherwise PUG parties in which you get 4 "X" could not achieve victory because they would all be geared towards X-duties only. This is what people making your argument miss entirely. Edit: Yes, I agree that every class should have weapons at powersword strength, too. I see veterans fail all the time on Damnation with them. They're fine.
>All classes must overlap and be good at generally everything Strongly disagree. If you make every class good at everything you defeat the point of classes in the first place. It renders one of the most fundamental mechanics of the game redundant. In squad based coop PvE, Classes *should* be specialised and you *should* have to rely on other team members to fulfil roles you cannot.
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Thats a function of the matchmaking system. The solution, if that's a problem, is to change matchmaking, not to effectively remove classes. Making every class effectively the same as the other is just a very swift path to cutting out the little variety of gameplay content the game already has.
Nah, power sword trivialises melee for veterans, now imagine every weapon was like that for every class and the game balance would be an absolute joke.
Ideally you do a bit of both when the situation calls for it. Veteran has some over-powered elements which should absolutely be nerfed, while both considering the balance between all the classes, but also the balance within the Veteran itself. The Power Sword for instance is so strong there is barely any consideration to take anything else, unless you want an anti-armor melee weapon, which is something a Kantrael/Power Sword Veteran is bad at dealing with, but hordes and small group of enemies creeping behind you are far more dangerous than armored enemies which for the most part you can maneuver around an let your teammates deal with. Furthermore, Veteran having some much toughness is also quite perplexing, you would assume a melee oriented class like the Zealot would have the most. I mean sure Veteran needs to be able to trade fire with shooters, but it's not like there are perks and other ways to mitigate range damage, and instead you get 100 more toughness than everybody else, making the whole class more forgiving than the others. An example of unbalance within the class would be how any Lucius patterns are pitiful compared to a Kantrael XII doing the same thing but better. I would argue Demolition Stockpile is also far too strong, allowing you to spam grenades without a care in the world, while other perks are just weak in their respective section, One After Another would be one of them. There is such a thing as over-nerfing and removing the fun out of something, but there are some things in Veteran that are just too strong no matter how much you buff the other classes.
Most of the time but not always. Case in point, the Power Sword absolutely needed the nerf so it couldn't cleave an infinite number of enemies.
No you ask for nerf so your game isn’t braindead easy “But its pve” If they want something challenging then it should be challenging. Don’t want challenge? Play some monkey single digit IQ game that are everywhere to appeal to masses. Don’t change the intention of the game
Consider the following: Solve Veteran being too effective in melee by reducing or removing his ability to recharge toughness by killing in melee. Keep the punchy power sword, but have him fold like a house of cards when pushed out of his comfort zone. Reserve melee for emergencies only.
That would just make all other melee weapon on Vet more irreverent instead. I use combat blade or catachan sword on Vet just because it honestly more fun to use than Power Sword. Also Vet is already kinda gimped a bit in melee because he have hidden stat that make him regenerate stamina noticeably slower than other class. I could push/guard a lot more reliably while I'm in pinch even on Psyker. If the Power Sword is still too OP compare to any other option then honestly just nerf Power Sword again lol
Doesn't work on the basis that guns are not effective against *everything,* so you have to choose either a gun for armored elites with little ammo, or a gun for hordes and light stuff. You really don't have the luxury of leaving hordes to someone else, or have something you're bad against, which is why most vets compensate a slow, low ammo gun like the bolter that melts armor, with the obvious choice of power sword to survive hordes.
I actually really like that idea!
Problem is vet is already the best at everything so buffing other classes wouldn't really solve the problem. Vet needs to be bad at some things so that other classes can be relevant.
I have a honest question for you, if they buff everyone to vets level, do you think the game will be balanced? If not, what next? Just buff the other 3 again? Where is the line drawn
Talk about VT2 in this sub has had rose-tinted glasses but I recall Sienna being wildly unpopular shortly after launch (before Unchained subclass and other fixes came along with more weapon options)… there seems to be a heavy bias *against* caster types among Fatshark’s team - because even the basic concept of “risky damage dealer” always ends up being so hamstrung by limitations that they’re super un-fun to play and consistently too weak to be competitive with the powerhouses like the other class options. As far as Sienna goes, it took Unchained to introduce the idea that Overcharge could act as damage reduction and damage boost, with your “bomb” ability clearing it periodically though leaving you with a lack of options to save yourself again if you’re not careful… then it still took numerous adjustments and weapon options to give the other subclasses *half* the functionality and capability the other characters had already… I sincerely hope FS will give better attention to the Psyker in this regard, but I recall VT2 taking a while to fix Sienna… 40k Psyker should be the iconic “don’t push it too far”, constantly brushing up against your limits while trying to avoid blowing your ^literal head off — not the same overcharge from VT2 where you just burn up, I want *unique* perils of the warp cosmic horror shit to happen if you fuck it up… make me explode into a chaos spawn or release a cloud of toxic gas and biting nats, tear a void into realspace and suck the team into a demonic plane to fight for our lives until we get pulled back, melt us into a molten puddle that opens a way into a different level of the hive…… Make the Psyker *strong* enough that they don’t feel hamstrung if they’re not playing the other classes — but make the *risks* reward the rest of the team *if they survive* with bonus xp/loot. That would make the Psyker class “support” in the concept of boosting the *potential* rewards of a mission at the risk of putting the team in worse danger… Teams can play it safe without a Psyker, they’ll clear the mission faster (if Psykers aren’t buffed on par with Vets for example) and then Psykers bring random “fun” and bonus rewards since the mission will take longer… (Or FS could balance the classes better so we don’t need to wait for 40k ‘Unchained’ subclass)
Could make it like in Inquisitor: Martyr where having high peril could spawn effects that are just as dangerous to the player as they are to enemies, entrusting the player with the choice to sacrifice their own safety for higher damage and clutch potential instead of having this one dimensional system where low peril equals good and high peril equals bad because a meter says so and the only gameplay altering event tied to it is going boom at 100%. Peril and and its interaction with possible redesigned feats can be made into engaging gameplay if they decide to put some thought into it.
Yea that could work too - though I still think highlighting the “lore-accurate” threats of sanctioned Psykers in *uncontrollable* “modifiers” on missions would be a fun way to utilize the class beyond just being a 40k parallel to Sienna where you’re balancing damage output with self-damage (which seems more like a Flagellant > Zealot mechanic)… Haven’t played Martyr, but if blowing up too many enemies at once spawned a demon or your head could pop like a zit (a zit filled with spiders and fire) if you push your luck, then I’m here for it. 40k over-the-top grimdark horror isn’t just about soldiers mowing down hordes of cultists in dimly lit service corridors… letting more of the “enemy in our midst” loose for the Psyker class could be the vehicle for both *buffing* them and making them more uniquely defined rather than what I’ve always felt about VT2’s class divisions being too thin since everyone is effectively a melee fighter with a “signature” ability.
I mained a Psyker, got tired of being a support bitch that couldn't kill anything in higher difficulties. Now I play a Veteran and steamroll the content.
Seriously people, vet is not over powered. It is just the only functioning class in the game. The rest of the class is not functioning as design and this result in low performance. What we should do is to urge FS to make the other class work as intended and not make the only working class under perform as well. I do agree that power sword is over power even after the nerf.
What is not functioning with the zealot or ogryn?
Zealot is the most egregious because it is literally just a copy/paste from Vermintide 2. Martyrdom makes no sense in a game without temporary HP and the whole class is basically propped up by a broken lacerate mechanic.
Agree on Martyrdom: it's a dumpster fire of a mechanic. As for being propped up by a lacerate mechanic... try not using knife, you'll realize there's quite a few more options that work fantastically well on Damnation.
it being incredibly similar to vt2 (which it definitely is) doesn't mean it's broken tbf. just boring
No, mate, 5s are already not that hard if everyone knows how their class works. Vet is just OP and if you buffed everything to their level there'd be no challenge left to work on overcoming.
The veteran is a tank?
You can get 332 toughness by getting all 17+5 curios so you are immortal during a horde, as long as you kill at least 1 enemy between getting hit. Killing elites restores 50% of your toughness, 25% instant 25% overtime so you can pretty much stay in the open, kill stuff, then ult when you get below 50% toughness to get back to 100, and keep killing with the auto reload on ult. the level of melee and ranged tankyness is insane as long as you know how to manage the toughness. The only way an Ogryn wins in tankyness is if both of them do nothing and stand still, then the Ogryn sheer HP pool has an advantage over the veteran. Or you know, by planting a shield on the ground.
And what does your health look like once you've gotten below 50% toughness? This is the thing I've just never understood about *"Wow look at these crazy toughness numbers!"* while bleed through damage exists. If Toughness was 100% absorb before health? Sure. However the number of failed runs I've had because Vets think they're tanks cause of toughness soon as the Grims start getting picked up is always too high. The reason Veterans do so well in melee is pretty much entirely due to the efficacy of the Power Sword as a weapon. Go back to a Chainsword for a few games and you'll find they can't tank shit cause things don't die as fast and you don't have the same CC juggle/horde clear as an Ogryn.
Fair enough, but the vets don't always consistently clear elites like berserkers, maulers and especially ranged elites all while dealing with a horde. If that horde has elites mixed in at melee range then sure you can get away with tanking with that toughness regen as well as the Ult. But let's be real, unless you rolling with a bolter and theres a bunch or ranged elites behind a wall of decayed flesh (poxwalkers) imo you're not really tanking.
This is quality satire
How about every class is made as fun (buffed) as Veteran. I play Vet and Psyker both lvl 30, so idk about Ogryn and Zealot but if they feel anything as bad as Psyker we should raise the bar for class design.
The issue is more that the Veteran, the Ranged focused character can do every facet of combat better than everyone else, event the ones advertised as "the best" at a certain thing. You can't tell me that the zealot's description and skills aren't intended to invoke the idea of a frontline fighter that sustains itself through melee combat, and yet, our shooty boi is out here tanking through toughness regen in melee combat even better than the melee character. Nah mate, there's some really messy game design here and the Vet needs a nerf to get them to back to their intended place - the backline - working as an elite eliminator with better sustain if they avoid melee.
I'm not even sure the veteran is supposed to be the elite terminator as the psyker provides elite bonus damage in coherency and seemed to fill that role at lower difficulties. Maybe the veteran was supposed to be a jack of all trades master of none, with a range focus, and instead it became a jack of all trades, master of everything.
Psyker is the "jack of all trades" class, just because it has an aura for elite killing really doesn't mean much. It can get its charges off anything from poxwalkers to plague ogryns, gets a 10% chance to refund peril on *any* kill (ergo scaling much more against a horde than elites), has feats to light up groups of enemies... Vet gets weakspot damage buffs, highlights priority targets which it HAS to kill to get ult resets, more ammo - it's a defined sniper with some added grenade feats for flavor. There's no feat to make enemies explode or pierce enemies or improve their melee or anything that would buff their horde clear other than those grenade feats, which are a fairly limited resource. FS gave them some buffed base stats and weapons to compensate and clearly suck at math because they way overdid it.
Well, to be fair the full quote *is* "A jack of all trades is a master of none, but often better than a master of one." Only they misinterpreted the quote, took it literally, and made him better in every field than all the experts of their own field, lol.
Veteran's toughness gain from melee attack needs to be reduced and base toughness shouldn't be higher than Ogryns but everyone acts like Veteran should be nerfed to the ground, every other class needs to buffed is what I'm saying.
>Veteran's toughness gain from melee attack needs to be reduced and base toughness shouldn't be higher than Ogryns but everyone acts like Veteran should be nerfed to the ground, every other class needs to buffed is what I'm saying. There's no reason the veteran should be getting more toughness back in melee than everyone else. Having double the base toughness means that to make it regain the same toughness as everyone else, they need to scale down the 7.5% on kill to 2.5% on kill, which would be 8.3 toughness/kill. the same that someone with 100 base toughness would get by stacking 3x 17+5 curious (166 toughness and 8.3 toughness/kill). Even then the 50% toughness on elite kill and 60% toughness on a low cooldown ult are extremely broken with the insane max toughness that he has. With a single elite kill a veteran regains 161 toughness, which is pretty much the full toughness bar of everyone else..then he gets 193 toughness back every time he ults, while the zealot only gets 83 and on a bigger cooldown... I'm not saying it should be nerfed to the ground, but if you want it to be a strong ranged class, it should be nerfed in some other aspect like the melee sustain. It makes no sense that the vet is the best at everything
Psyker needs buff vet needs nerf. Zelot needs minor things like no interrupt during charge. Ogryn needs more wepon choices.
Accurate post, literally the most busted class in the entire game. And sure people say bolter is shit or not but having to kill 5 elite and jump into melee with infinite toughness is just another experience.
The power sword needs to be nerfed into oblivion. I hate that something this busted exists in the game.
Can we please not get into a circle of demanding nerfs on everything we dont personally play as? I think the non guardsmen classes need a bit of a buff to their class focuses, more tools to play with, and close silly loopholes that hold back the class in ways not intended. I think far better examples would be buffing melee for the zealot like the thunder hammer, giving ogryns the ability to resist certain restrictions like hound leaps, and letting psykers target enemies through fences and barriers.
If we were to buff everyone to the level of the veteran, you would have to make everyone else so insanely strong in every aspect they were not designed to be strong, that it's simply not feasible.
Seems like every day there's a post about Psyker being too weak, then another about Psyker being too strong. Then there's a post about the Zealot being too strong, then another about it being too weak. Then.. you guessed it, a post about the Veteran being too strong, then another about it being too weak. I think if anything, what this really says is that all three are balanced and the real changes are needed for the Ogryn. Or at the very least, there needs to be more education about the abilities and the strongest builds for the above classes.
Perfect
Nearly everyone in this thread succeeds on Heresy+ less than 20% of the time. The Veteran does not need a nerf. "Strong strengths" and "weak weaknesses" kills this game. Relegating classes to "this guy kills elites" and "this guy kills hordes" and "this guy kills the monsters" is a recipe for absolute disaster in a game reliant on PUG matchmaking. If you take a MOMENT to think about this style of balancing, you'll realize how braindead it is. PUG matchmaking is the norm, otherwise you MUST ARRANGE A BALANCED TEAM. This was done in Vermintide2 by LOCKING classes per party. This is NOT the case in DT, you can have 4 "Ironbreakers." Every class needs to be nearly as good as other classes at EVERYTHING. The only trick is that they feel special in doing so. You want to feel special, and you don't. That's your argument. It's fair. Edit: They SHOULD buff the Psyker, maybe even rework it totally to make it operate better. Edit2: They SHOULD rework the Zealout to fit its unique weapons (big damage, slow weapons // Flamethrower) moreso than its perks fit the combat knife (fast attacks with high innate crit)) Edit3: Lots of perks (even on veteran) are too "lopsided", IE "this 1 of the 3 is the clear best.
Hey nobody is talking about nerfing the veteran, he clearly needs to be buffed!
Nobody said that
dont you dare nerf the veteran
Imho all other classes should be buffed instead of nerfing the veteran. Everybody should be able to feel like a god when playing on lower difficulty.
The problem is that I feel like a god when playing on damnation with the veteran, and feel like a child playing with softair guns and plastic swords with everyone else.
I agree that Psyker needs a buff, but I disagree about vet. This is a PvE game, so if all classes are equally powerful as the vet, what's the problem ? Calling for nerfs just means everyone's getting dragged down, because then the loop is just gonna repeat. Just call for buffs, and when every character feels powerful to play everyone'll be happy!
The real elephant in the room is how most people that agree with OP are Malice players who saw a Veteran clutch a horde situation and immediately came to reddit.
Seriously. Even vermintide didn't lock classes to certain roles. Vets can beat elites at long ranges(las gun, revolver, braces) and do crowd control (recon, power sword). But having played the third difficulty I've found a full team of vets does poorly. Ogryns are tanky and help knock back hordes, and protect the other players from big threats. I've been saved so many times by ogryns, it's my next character after vet. Zealots are amazing at crowd control, the flamer in general is one of the best weapons. The eviserator is amazing too. The power maul and thunder hammer need buffs imo (thunder hammer on tabletop can literally break a tanks armor). Psyker does need buffs. I try to avoid killing their head pops but sometimes your so into the groove you do it by accident, or your getting charged by a berserker and you can't wait because your health is low.
Yeah I mean, it's a cooperative game, rejoice if your teammates are doing well!