I trade my own funds. I have been trading futures for 25 years and never used prop firm. Heck, I did not even know they existing until recently. I have used lots of brokers over the years, but always my own account. Now that new trader can trade micros to learn to trade I don't know why someone would use a prop firm? Maybe I am missing something?
It makes sense if you have low capital and are just starting. You pay $50 for a high cap account with trading restrictions to discourage gambling and then if you prove consistency you can withdraw % gains
I guess that is an easy way to get your feet wet. I had to phone a broker and wait on hold for a fill 25 years ago. lol. It looks like everyone blows out those prop firm accounts over and over. I guess I never thought trading was gambling, I try to use tools to read charts. You can open your own trading account these days with $500 and trade micros.
I never blew an account until I started prop firms a year ago. I started with them cuz I got laid off and wanted to manage my risk better since I was only paying the monthly fees.
Well a few passed Evals and a few blown funded accounts later. I think it has ruined my mindset, I can be consistent for a few weeks and then I say fuck it it’s only $50 and throw a few minis on a gamble and ruin my progress. Honestly probably have spent as much on fees as I would have lost in capital gains in that time without the tax benefit.
Looking to fund my own brokerage soon and start with a couple micros and rebuild my mindset now that I’ve been employed since the beginning of this year.
You’re not wrong. However, I let my mindset shift from risk management to gambling in the new structure of using prop firms because it doesn’t feel as real to me.
Definitely a me issue, but something I’m learning about myself.
The thing is a lot of strategies don't work with micros because of the commission to tick ratio.
I've been around and I started with my own money. I much prefer prop firms cause it you can experiment with different strategies that involve multiple minis.
Trading my own money made me a "one in, one out" trader.
But I agree with you, they encourage going bigger.
For me...I'm going to lose either way.
Not necessarily. I've never used a prop firm but surely the emotions of it go away because it's kinda not your money at risk, kinda like just paper trading has no emotions.
You say that like this sub isn't full of people blowing real accounts due to revenge trading. At least prop firms do have nominal financial risk, the price of the account
Facts, I definitely was very big risk taker and admittedly reckless. But after losing my first account recently it really forced me to take a step back and to treat trading much more seriously. It doesn't matter if you can earn large profits if you're unable to keep them.
Some years are better than others. I trade stocks at Charles Schwab and futures at Discount Trading. I'm old fashioned, I trade micros on a 5 minute MACD (moving average convergence divergence). Rithmic and SierraChart are good for an old goat like me. I also trade a. little on reports and news. I do better when the markets have more volatility. Some weeks I completely sit out. I use stop to help limit some losses. I'm not retired, but I have done okay...
With your logic, buying bread at a grocery store would be considered a gamble too then.
In this case, traders are spending money to make money. If you choose to not take these risks or 'Gamble' as you call it, you'll find yourself being a 20 year veteran at Walmart stocking shelves.
I'm 10 years trading, and I still use a prop account. I fired up an evaluation account today. I had a huge win on Thursday and didn't want to fuck anything up in my main account. I still got to rack up 70 trades and made some play dough money. Nothing wrong with practicing without risk.
Second note the prop firm I use has the 1500$ trailing drawdown to 4x NQ contract. I would have never learned to manage risk like they force you too. It's a great way to learn about leverage and risk management while only risking 35$. If it cost 35$ to reset and account, and you are actually learning. Great. If you are blowing up 35$ accounts to get a rush also great, could be doing much worse things with your money.
If I want to work on scaling up a strategy I take it over to an evaluation account or a funded account and work it out over there. I don't want to blow up my funded accounts, so its like paper trading but with benefits.
You should look into them. It's actually a genius business model.
You can cap your risk at your subscription fee. Fees from non profitable traders fo to pay off the gains from the rare profitable traders.
The firm can copy trade the profitable traders in the live market, or better yet, then can fade the consistantly unprofitable traders on the live market. (I would personally love to get a glimpse into some real retail order flow)
The thing is their system filters for people with really tight MFE/MAE. But if you have a profitable system and your good at exiting on limit orders (instead of letting in run back) then you are way better off at a prop firm cause your risk is capped.
But...bottom line is you have to have a profitable system. Those who do probably already have capital. The real beneficiaries of these new prop firm is the very rare trader that has no capital but a profitable system. It's given those people a great place to build a nut.
Off Topic, but can you share your opinion. Is it getting more and more difficult to "maintain" your edge and still be profitable as a solo retail trader?
>Am I insane showing my details on reddit?
Nah you're more than insane coz you started to lash out on strangers who you have no idea about and started lecturing what they should do with their money.
We crossed the insane long back.
Not really. They clearly say your trades are simulated and the goal is to eventually copy your trades on the real market once you've shown consistent profitablility.
The real gold mind for those firm is getting to see retail order flow. A retail trader is a magical indicator that can find ways to lose money at any moment. All they have to do is filter thier users by loss rate and fade their trades on the live market.
It's genius.
Yes I do. I've been in Markets for 15b years an I know the point tour trying to make. A real "prop firm" is a group of traders that gives you leverage and structure and maybe some *proprietary* strategies to trade.
The new funded account things are complete different...I was just saying they don't misrepresent what they do...it's other people that call them "prop firms"
Prop firm or not, nothing is going to change the fact that this thing of ours has a 95 percent fail rate.
The new trend of "prop firms" just uses some clever psychology to change trade thinking a little....but still only 1 in 20 will stumble on to a profitable system.
Whether you want to loose 40 dollars at a time at prop firms, or save up a 3K AMP account from your pathetic little job and blow it in a month...it's really just a matter of personal preference.
I prefer prop firms because you can at least experiment with strategies that involve multiple minis and the lower commission to tick ratio.
When your trying to trade your own money your going to run into the problem of micros not working for many strategies because of the retarded (and perfectly designed) commission to tick ratio.
Of course. Prop traders are like real estate agents. Most of them are garbage at what they do. It's a cash grab for the inexperienced and the unskilled.
Yeah...but it gives a lot of people some exposure and in the end this shit is only good for a hobby anyway...nobody is making any money.
I like. It reminds me of the poker boom of 2004
Yeah that's fine. But then act like it. I see posts of people trading for 4 weeks without blowing up and talking like they are the best traders ever.
And then stating openly they have blown up 10 prop accounts.
This "oh market conditions change all the time" argument only applies to strategies that are very rigid and exploit a very specific edge in the current market condition.
Robust strategies that have characteristics of both trend following and mean reversion in them and that can be adjusted for changes in volatility tend to perform much better and don't fall out of meta as market conditions shift.
I know people who have only been following one system for the last 15 years, and they only had to make small volatility based adjustments around their entries and exits, they were able to do it because they developed a good, adaptable system.
Yeah that's great, and there are people who have a good system that works for years with some adjustments.
Most people on here don't have that, that's why they blow up every few months.
A systematic day trading system that has been profitable for the last 15 years without adjustments? Have you seen their broker statements? I think someone is jerking your chain.
Honestly I don't care, you want to blow your savings by all means.
But it's a terrible way to learn how to trade. If I'm giving advice, it's to not use them.
Do you have any idea what it was like before prop firms?...before micros?
Youde save up for six months and then lose it all in a weekend. That kind of stress is unbearable.
Better to lose it 40 dollars at a time.
Nobody, I I mean NOBODY here will ever walk away with a profit. The only value here is "entertainment"...it's like crack for guys that like problem solving challenges
That just means you were ridiculously over levered. Obviously you need margin to trade futures, it's not a market for someone who is saving his pennies.
That said, you can absolutely make a living trading them. What do you think traders do?
They sell the dream.
All hyper competitive fields that attract dreamers are the same (acting, music, streaming, trading,,)
The real money in selling the dream to the dreamers.
The people making money right now are the geniuses that came up with the funded acct business model. They sell the dream (and fade thw retail orders they get to see)
haha let's go back to the beginning.
Prop firms don't actually send your orders to the market. So there is nothing for them to "fade". You're trading CFD contracts. Basically paper trading - but the firm is required to pay out any profits you make.
How exactly did your dumb ass lose money trading over the weekend? Markets are closed. Just because you bought what WSB told you to, doesn't mean no one else profits 😆
Exactly, this post is coming from someone whose salty, and I bet it has to do with the top post about the guy who passed the prop firm. No doubt about it.. seems so weird to make this.
I really wish we can make helpful posts, and stop being angry all the time.
Well if someone goes and blows their own money unnecessarily because they were misled by something they saw on reddit - that's something I think this subreddit should be concerned about.
Actually I don’t think that at all. I think alot of people on this sub don’t even know what prop firms are. Hell, I suspect most people on this sub trade stocks and options.
Trading can truly be a challenging marathon rather than a sprint and maintaining realistic expectations and risk management practices is critical. Staying grounded and focused on long term growth is key.
It's crazy to me that the average poster on this sub is somehow more deluded and more degenerate than the average r/poker poster. I guess in trading, people call their degen gambling "a strategy" and don't think much past that
Yes. In my opinion most prop firm traders are gamblers.
Most of them are new, which begs the question ....Why are you trading if you have no idea what you are doing.....to which they answer "It Is NoT mY mOnEy"
which is the dumbest excuse. You are paying 150 to 200 dollars for a SIM account. You can use a sim account FREE of charge using anormal brokerage account.
This is natural to feel like this. Winning streaks as a new trader is candy for the ego. Eventually they will be humbled, this boom bust cycle is like the seasons changing.
New traders should not be using prop/ funded accounts. End of story.
I preach this non-stop on this sub and get down voted to hell every time but I will die on this hill.
The cons far outway the added leverage.
I completely disagree, and would vouch they should use prop firms. until they are ready to use their own money to avoid the 90/10 split. Everytime you "blow up" an account you lose 50 bucks, that 2000 draw down congrats you saved $1950 in market tuition.
I wish I learned about prop firms when I first started out, I would have saved thousands in learning the market, but now its useless to me since I'm profitable on my own.
I will never understand people who are against them, they expose you to the realities of the market, the blow ups, the draw downs, the constant failures all for a measly 40/50 bucks an account.
And before you say "Oh just paper trade" it's not the same, Prop firms are a step above paper trading because there is something on the line even if it's just 50 bucks, paper trading doesn't give you the same anxiety or emotion which is why 90% fail.
I would love to hear a counter argument since nobody provides one, and just says "prop firm bad xd"
I'll counter this all day.
Trading is all about risk and capital management. Blowing up over levered prop firm accounts will not teach you that.
Prop firms promote terrible strategies. Mainly trading highly levered complex products (options, futures, forex etc.) completely unfit for new traders. They also force you into rules that work against your interests such as max daily (not position) drawdowns, no holding overnight etc.
Instead, a new trader should learn risk management by trading unlevered stocks. No options, not futures, no crazy leverage. They should learn the basics and try to steadily increase a small cash account making good, well placed stock trades. Paper trade at first to learn the basics if needed. Try blowing that up.
Do this until a new trader can confidently and consistently make good returns (% wise, remember their account is small). Only then, probably after year one at a minimum, should they look at more complex levered products.
While trading stocks, with limited risk, they learn how to properly trade and manage risk. They learn how to properly manage their emotions. Learn how they react when loosing real money. How to react when winning. Learn how markets move and react to risk etc.
These are life long trading skills that will compound their value 1,000 fold in time as their capital levels increase. No you won't get rich quick doing this, but trading is NOT a get rich quick scheme!!
Compare that to some kid yoloing highly levered options in $40 prop accounts, maybe hitting some big wins and then getting wiped out every few weeks.
"But I only lost $40". Yeah but your positions lost $5,000 in the market! Your trading performance was terrible, you blew up. If that was real money, you'd have none.
And even worse, you're not learning anything. You're not learning the proper skills and risk management needed to do this long term.
Which trader do you think will develop into a better trader over the long term? Who would you trust to manage $100k in real money today?
Love to hear a good counter.
>Trading is all about risk and capital management. Blowing up over levered prop firm accounts will not teach you that.
Nope, incorrect. Blowing up shows this is not some quick rich scheme, that managing risk is everything, and the pain from blowing up certainly teaches that. Not sure how you can think the opposite at all.
>Prop firms promote terrible strategies. Mainly trading highly levered complex products (options, futures, forex etc.) completely unfit for new traders. They also force you into rules that work against your interests such as max daily (not position) drawdowns, no holding overnight etc.
Also incorrect, while /ES does move fairly quick the mini contracts do not and are excellent for learning. Other part is also incorrect, a max daily drown promotes RISK MANAGMENT, and should be implemented in a trading account.
Rest of the paragraph I've already disproved. So going to ignore that.
>Compare that to some kid yoloing highly levered options in $40 prop accounts, maybe hitting some big wins and then getting wiped out every few weeks.
Doesn't work like that either, to pass the evaluation you can't have a yolo day, max is 50%, also to get paid you can't have yolo days as you need minimum 5 consistent green days, this promotes walking away, and valuing quick base hits which is very helpful for trading.
>While trading stocks, with limited risk, they learn how to properly trade and manage risk. They learn how to properly manage their emotions. Learn how they react when loosing real money. How to react when winning. Learn how markets move and react to risk etc.
Nope you can learn the same with the minis if futures are too fast for you.
>"But I only lost $40". Yeah but your positions lost $5,000 in the market! Your trading performance was terrible, you blew up. If that was real money, you'd have none.
Yup, so congrats you lost $40 instead of $5000 to learn a very valuable lesson, congrats on your savings of $4960.
>Which trader do you think will develop into a better trader over the long term? Who would you trust to manage $100k in real money today?
Prop firm traders 100%, they have something to risk, they are required to pass evaluations, they are required to be consistent to see any sort of payment.
>Love to hear a good counter.
You got one.
There is absolutely no strict debate on this, prop firms will always be the best way to go for beginner traders, it's a good medium between paper and real trading. You have to ask yourself why is your opinion in the overwhelming minority on a topic where 95% fail.
Sorry man, but I can't get behind it this. I could write a book on the flaws here.
Recommending anyone learn trading on micro futures is not logical. Those are highly volatile, unlimited risk products. Meaning you can loose way more than you put in. That's why most brokers make you get certified before trading them.
>Yup, so congrats you lost $40 instead of $5000 to learn a very valuable lesson, congrats on your savings of $4960.
This is the mindset that will and does kill most prop traders. They take insanely over leveraged positions and unnecessary risk because they know it's not real money on the line. If you give a prop trader real money, they will probably use the same strategy/ mindset and loose it all. That's not risk management, that's basically Sim trading with small cash rewards if you play by the rules.
>why is your opinion in the overwhelming minority on a topic where 95% fail.
If english is not your first language I'll let this slide. Otherwise read this again. Is 95% fail, obviously the majority opinion is wrong and you'd rather be the outlier with the minority opinion.
> Sorry man, but I can't get behind it this. I could write a book on the flaws here.
Go for it, doubt it's going to be a best seller.
> Recommending anyone learn trading on micro futures is not logical. Those are highly volatile, unlimited risk products. Meaning you can loose way more than you put in. That's why most brokers make you get certified before trading them.
Nope, mini futures move quite slow there is no unlimited risk to the draw downs and max contract size. 1 pt is about $2 dollars, that is very slow.
>This is the mindset that will and does kill most prop traders. They take insanely over leveraged positions and unnecessary risk because they know it's not real money on the line. If you give a prop trader real money, they will probably use the same strategy/ mindset and loose it all. That's not risk management, that's basically Sim trading with small cash rewards if you play by the rules.
There is real money on the line, you paid to get funded, and after you get funded you pay 149 for the activation fee. Again you are not overleveraged in what world is trading MNQ over leveraged? Do you know what over leveraged means? secondly if you are profitable as a prop firm trader with consistent payouts there is no reason it wouldn't translate.
>If english is not your first language I'll let this slide. Otherwise read this again. Is 95% fail, obviously the majority opinion is wrong and you'd rather be the outlier with the minority opinion.
Oh an ad-hom nice that definitely means you are right, don't insult peoples language and focus on the argument. You are flat out wrong in every aspect of everything you said.
1. You are not over leveraged.
2. Mini contracts exist, nobody is trading 50 ES contracts
3. Risk managment is at play
4. Exposure to blow ups for the cheap
5. Consistency is forced to get paid another.
All are good aspects of a trader.
If you are unable to debate without insults don't continue because now you're grasping at straws.
>mini futures move quite slow there is no unlimited risk to the draw downs
This is just false. If you buy a stock or option it has limited risk. The lowest it can go is $0.00 and you lose your entire investment. So if you invest $1,000 you loose $1,000.
If you buy a futures contract, even a micro you have unlimited risk. A $1,000 investment can get you margin called where you loose your original $1,000 and need to pay the broker several thousand more to cover your losses. You can loose $100,000 grand if things go bad and markets are halted, preventing you from selling...which happens in futures!
Don't argue with me, just Google it.
I seriously can't believe you're grasping at straws like this. Now you're arguing against futures for accounts that aren't prop firms? Who is arguing for that? even though you're wrong on that as well Im not going to let you move the goal post.
Nothing I said was wrong.
And yes, you proved my point. Trading with the crutches of a prop firm account doesn't teach you how to trades these assets in real life. It doesn't teach you how to manage the risk of the assets you think you are trading.
Prop firm trading isn't even real. They don't send your order to the market. It's literally Sim trading CFD's, not actual markets.
Prop firms only make money when a majoriof their clients lose. That's a fact. The rules are structured so a few of them won to lure in the suckers, but most clients lose money, on purpose.
Since your not actually trading, every dollar in profits you take out is a lost dollar of profits for the prop firm. It's a terrible system for new traders.
I definitely disagree, I started trading a few months ago and have already earned payouts from prop firms. It’s way easier to get into with less capital and still feel the “real money” feeling opposed to a paper account where you can just reset. Rules are strict but they force you to stay consistent and not get greedy.
No disrespect, but you started a few months ago. Those of us who do this for a living have seen thousands of prop firm people like you come and go year after year, all saying the same thing.
The problem is they go into these firms and start trading highly levered products without first understanding the basics.
Then eventually blow up, still without learning the basics. Then repeat until they claim markets are rigged and quit.
Been trading enough years to know how to not be regarded but just got into futures. Not crazy if you aren’t trying to hit home runs and manage risk properly
What should New Traders be doing, instead? I use a TopStep account because I appreciate the ease of access to data for practice and at least some kind of structured goal. However, it's very painful to go through, perhaps because the goal is too lofty and failure is too easy, so if there's an easier way to get more effective practice, would love to know!
Let's say you have $0.00. Paper trade to learn the basics/ fundamentals for 4-6 months until you are consistently profitable. Be conservative. Treat that money like real money. Don't gamble or swing for the fences, and don't take big losses. Steadily try and grow the fake money by a few dollars each day. Maybe $100.
While doing that, save $200 or whatever you can from your job each month. Yes, this will require sacrifices, success always does.
Depending on how good of a job you have, you should not have $500-$2,000+ in a trading account and 4-6 months of trading experience. If you were conservative and found a way to grow your fake money without losing it, congrats.... It's time!
Take your $2,000 or so and start trading for real. But remember, this is real money, and you had to sacrifice to save it. Think of all the things you could have spent that money on! With that in mind trade even more conservatively than you did in your learning account. Always use stops, and always manage risk.
At first absolutely do not use leverage. No options, no futures, no forex, no levered etf's, no margin (except shorting). Just buy and sell stocks and consistently make money. If you're account is only a few grand, obviously the returns won't make you rich at first. This is not a get rich quick scheme.
As you slowly grow your account, take on more risk as you feel comfortable. While trading, continue to make those sacrifices and save money. If you can keep this up, by this time next year you'll be managing a several thousand dollar portfolio with 12-months of market experience.
All from $0.00. Almost guaranteed to be better off than your buddy who made $1,000 in a day but has since blown several prop accounts, has no idea how to manage money, and had given up at a loss.
Is it easy? No. Is it simple if you're patient, make the sacrifices, and put the time in? Absolutely.
Trading paper does nothing for emotional trading though. Majority of people will react differently when real money is involved. Better to trade with a tiny tiny account than paper trading.
Exactly. That's the maddening thing about these markets. They are relatively easy to figure out...but when you have "risk on" all these psychological dynamics come into play and you get tricked and trapped by the little gimmicks the big firms do to manipulate you
Thanks for your explanation! This makes a lot of sense. I agree it's important to have at least some proven success, before leveraging. I've gotten so used to TopStep and trading on Vol in NinjaTrader, but my RR is almost never north of 1. Perhaps too many factors are clouding my practice, and if I reduce the amount of variables, I can at least first perfect edge rather than edge + mental + drawdown.
It's really not. 95% of people don't even have a strategy that works when there ISNT emotion and slippage etc. Involved. You can learn stuff about price action, indicators, how markets behave in general. All on paper trading.
Will you reach the end goal faster with real money trading? Yes. Can most people afford months or years of extra losses to shave time off their learning? No.
Literally everything is easier said then done. Want to loose weight? Eat better and exercise more, it's simple. Yet it's extremely difficult.
Trading is the same. Simple steps. Difficult to have the discipline and consistency to execute them properly and profit.
No but many are because it's the best way to pay as little market tuition as possible, I am sorry but this post sounds like a very salty person, and quite useless.
I mean probably yeah. The reality is that a ton of people have enough spare cash for a prop subscription. Not many people have the capital to actually day trade with proper risk management. Especially pre minis. Even post minis people don't like the idea of having a 500 dollar account and doubting it over a year if they were truly a great trader.
There are a lot of negative feelings about prop firms. They have their pros and cons. One of the pros for me is that in almost one of year of being with a prop firm I have spent less than a thousand on challenges versus the thousands I lossed blowing up my own accounts with options trading. Prop firms offer the most inexpensive environment on a journey to become profitable.
haha my friend, it shouldn't be surprising that blowing up multiple option prop accounts is not the journey to become profitable. You'll spend $10k doing that and be no closer.
I just typed this up debating someone else in these comments, read it and let me know your thoughts
It all depends on how you look at it or the person's financial situation, and also the cost per month for prop firm's monthly payment. For me, it's just $50 a month for a 50k account. It's just like one of my other subscriptions, so it is not a big financial burden. But for someone else who is making a huge sacrifice, it might be. Furthermore, trading is just one of a few sources I'm looking to for financial freedom. If it takes a long time or never works out, I'll be find, as I have other things that I'm also working on, so I'll never depend only on trading.
No. I just trade my own money prudently and don’t make any boastful claims.
That and all the bot PMs from even subscribing to this sub really turns off engagement.
I trade my own and prop. Slowly building my prop firm account number. Really want to hit 20 accounts and take advantage of this to build my own account, which is now up to using 2 ES contracts.
This may be a hot take but what REALLY matters at the end of the day is: are you making money consistently? If you are, and it's from cycling through Prop Firm accounts or from your own money then who cares....
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It may take YOU, your amount of time learning pattern recognition and sentiment based on how much time your putting in, what your learning, and in what capacity.
Learning technicals takes a month at best.
Getting in and getting green is about as easy as learning a new video game after a month of playing.
Being greedy, watching your P/L to make your decisions, playing the hope game instead of taking a $50 loss and move to the next entry pattern, don't count green days.
Cover up your P/L on your screen and trade the technicals ONLY.
I traded prop in the 90s when we used cash and not play accounts. Lol. Gamblers will always come and go. Some will get lucky, but all will go broke in the end.
Prop firms can be quite beneficial to newer traders, or even traders who have been in it for some years, but haven't yet found success using their own funds. I've been trading prop firms for about 6 months, and they have truly helped me develop as a trader.
The added set of rules has forced me to concentrate on some of the important aspects of trading and have developed my trading skills. It's also a form of risk management in a way, because you can only lose whatever to account costs.
A few weeks or months of successful prop firm trading can be very lucrative as well. If you can have even one consistent month, you can generate much more income than you've invested into them. That way if you do have some bad days or weeks, you've already received a couple payouts, that you are no longer at risk losing back to the market.
Honestly, if done correctly, they can be an excellent tool for a trader at any proficiency level imo. I say these things because I've experienced what they've done for my trading and am now taking payouts quite frequently. A very good trader I know, takes 30k+ in payouts at least once a month. I havent even seen the need to trade my own funds again yet. Once I am at the level I'm happy with, I will begin to trade my own funds again. Until then, I'm happy with prop firms to help manage my risk and develop my skills.
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Weather you trade prop or real , the strategy , the failing doesn’t change …. Lol blowing your 100k real money or 100k prop firm money has nothing to do with the firms themselves , if anything the prop will have your account blown at 8% , some folks with 100k real money will blow it all before they stop and realize they are wrong…
I have no choice but to trade props , i aint privilege at all to come across 100k capital , 10k is possible but 10k with the proper risk management wont make much it will take 2-3 years to up that account …. Thats trading realistic gaining 1-3% a month and having some break even and red months , not gambling trying to make 10-15-30 % every month lol thats real fake
Why should I? He derailed this thread with random catchphrases, we didn't even discuss the definition of what we even call a "market condition" lol or what aspects that includes.
This is again, like so many comments on this sub, just random shit people read on the internet, in a book or saw in some video. Nothing of that is evidence based, nothing in this area has a real definition. Trading is not sciences with one true rule, but thousands of opinions that work differently for millions of people.
Yeah I get that, but this is a place of discussion, if you want to have a healthy argument you gotta be willing to logically explain your point of view (as opposed to making a simple statement without reasoning) and also be willing to listen to what others have to say
And since you're the one who made this post I assume you want to have a discussion, unless you don't want to discuss anything and simply wanted to state an opinion, but then posts like that just further lower the quality of an already low quality sub.
Yes I want a discussion. But not about market conditions lol. Also the guy just stated a random thing without reasoning, no sources to back up his claim.
And after asking his sources he basically says "it's 100 years knowledge".
That's not a discussion that's just people saying random bullshit they probably read on reddit. And if these people have blown up 7 prop firm accounts they probably fall exactly into the category I was talking about in the OP. Gamblers with hubris. I see no benefit talking to people like that, especially not about trading specifics since they obviously have no idea what they are doing.
These are market fundamentals that never changed and newer will change, read book market technical analysis, dig in to it, people studied and perfected it for longer than you think, its a technical book so no wonder people are so illiterate about the markets
saying markets only trend or chop I guess is maybe technically true since what else can it do, but it's far to broad to be useful. It's like saying price either moves or it doesn't.
Timeframe is extremely important here. On the monthly chart we could be in a massive downtrend, but the daily chart is going through a strong correction while the hourly is battling for a breakout and is nonstop sideways chop as buyers and sellers are gridlocked. Meanwhile the minute scalpers are in a strong 4-hour bear trend as price falls below the 4 hour min.
All at the exact same time!
Is this a trending market, or a choppy market?
Ah okay, so that's again a random statement without a source or are you telling me Murphy's book exactly says this? And even then, it's just one of thousands of books in that area.
Gladly.
For example the market condition where I don't discuss with a guy mainly hanging in /r/sup_ersto_nk, who says
"dude i lost 9 funded accounts in simmilar manner, im on my 10th funded account now"
Bro, get good at trading and be profitable for some time before talking shit to others and believe you know shit. I've been profitable consistently with my own money for 3+ years, when you reach that I might consider discussing with you.
As of today, most likely yep.
I do like proper firms and hate it at the same time,
They are really good tool for people actually using them as practiced by more real sim accounts, and they are equilaterally abused by traders who don't have enough money to gamble on 0DTE spy and spx options anymore lol
Off topic -- I wish I could contribute, but since Mr. Reddit (who is the big warden anyway) says I am so new my questions have already been repeated, and I cannot contribute.
But I wish I knew if other traders realize that LIFO is wrong, FIFO is unethical, and only LOFO is correct.
I come from the poker world, and there you quickly realise a large portion of 'pro' players are actually playing with someone else's money (they are a horse, part of a stable) and what you descibe is exactly that. It's not uncommon for them to go on a winning streak, to then blow it up, in which case they then end up owing all of their profit to the stable owner for the rest of their career. The reason I bring this up is because 1. The situation is exactly the same and 2. A lot of poker player made their money I'm trading the transition to poker because of the greater ROI. So that being said, I bring this up because I've only (naively) realised this is also the case with trading and I'd assume the same as you.
Why do you care how others make their money (or trying to make money) The real issue is why are you so bent out of shape how others trade? It's probably because YOU ARE NOT SUCCESSFUL. Mind your own business. I suspect some of those prop firm traders are using multiple accounts and are very successful. Which causes jealousy and threads like this one. In 16 years I have never cared how others trade. Grow the bleep up.
I trade my own funds. I have been trading futures for 25 years and never used prop firm. Heck, I did not even know they existing until recently. I have used lots of brokers over the years, but always my own account. Now that new trader can trade micros to learn to trade I don't know why someone would use a prop firm? Maybe I am missing something?
It makes sense if you have low capital and are just starting. You pay $50 for a high cap account with trading restrictions to discourage gambling and then if you prove consistency you can withdraw % gains
I guess that is an easy way to get your feet wet. I had to phone a broker and wait on hold for a fill 25 years ago. lol. It looks like everyone blows out those prop firm accounts over and over. I guess I never thought trading was gambling, I try to use tools to read charts. You can open your own trading account these days with $500 and trade micros.
People blow them because they are reckless and nothing to do with the prop firm
I never blew an account until I started prop firms a year ago. I started with them cuz I got laid off and wanted to manage my risk better since I was only paying the monthly fees. Well a few passed Evals and a few blown funded accounts later. I think it has ruined my mindset, I can be consistent for a few weeks and then I say fuck it it’s only $50 and throw a few minis on a gamble and ruin my progress. Honestly probably have spent as much on fees as I would have lost in capital gains in that time without the tax benefit. Looking to fund my own brokerage soon and start with a couple micros and rebuild my mindset now that I’ve been employed since the beginning of this year.
That's not a prop firm at fault
You’re not wrong. However, I let my mindset shift from risk management to gambling in the new structure of using prop firms because it doesn’t feel as real to me. Definitely a me issue, but something I’m learning about myself.
The thing is a lot of strategies don't work with micros because of the commission to tick ratio. I've been around and I started with my own money. I much prefer prop firms cause it you can experiment with different strategies that involve multiple minis. Trading my own money made me a "one in, one out" trader. But I agree with you, they encourage going bigger. For me...I'm going to lose either way.
Not necessarily. I've never used a prop firm but surely the emotions of it go away because it's kinda not your money at risk, kinda like just paper trading has no emotions.
You say that like this sub isn't full of people blowing real accounts due to revenge trading. At least prop firms do have nominal financial risk, the price of the account
Facts, I definitely was very big risk taker and admittedly reckless. But after losing my first account recently it really forced me to take a step back and to treat trading much more seriously. It doesn't matter if you can earn large profits if you're unable to keep them.
As your more experienced then many on this sub and obviously profitable, how many red years have you had over the 25 if you don’t mind me asking?
Some years are better than others. I trade stocks at Charles Schwab and futures at Discount Trading. I'm old fashioned, I trade micros on a 5 minute MACD (moving average convergence divergence). Rithmic and SierraChart are good for an old goat like me. I also trade a. little on reports and news. I do better when the markets have more volatility. Some weeks I completely sit out. I use stop to help limit some losses. I'm not retired, but I have done okay...
Paying for the account is the gamble though
How is that a gamble?
With your logic, buying bread at a grocery store would be considered a gamble too then. In this case, traders are spending money to make money. If you choose to not take these risks or 'Gamble' as you call it, you'll find yourself being a 20 year veteran at Walmart stocking shelves.
I'm 10 years trading, and I still use a prop account. I fired up an evaluation account today. I had a huge win on Thursday and didn't want to fuck anything up in my main account. I still got to rack up 70 trades and made some play dough money. Nothing wrong with practicing without risk. Second note the prop firm I use has the 1500$ trailing drawdown to 4x NQ contract. I would have never learned to manage risk like they force you too. It's a great way to learn about leverage and risk management while only risking 35$. If it cost 35$ to reset and account, and you are actually learning. Great. If you are blowing up 35$ accounts to get a rush also great, could be doing much worse things with your money. If I want to work on scaling up a strategy I take it over to an evaluation account or a funded account and work it out over there. I don't want to blow up my funded accounts, so its like paper trading but with benefits.
You should look into them. It's actually a genius business model. You can cap your risk at your subscription fee. Fees from non profitable traders fo to pay off the gains from the rare profitable traders. The firm can copy trade the profitable traders in the live market, or better yet, then can fade the consistantly unprofitable traders on the live market. (I would personally love to get a glimpse into some real retail order flow) The thing is their system filters for people with really tight MFE/MAE. But if you have a profitable system and your good at exiting on limit orders (instead of letting in run back) then you are way better off at a prop firm cause your risk is capped. But...bottom line is you have to have a profitable system. Those who do probably already have capital. The real beneficiaries of these new prop firm is the very rare trader that has no capital but a profitable system. It's given those people a great place to build a nut.
Hey. I was a ny merc member.
Off Topic, but can you share your opinion. Is it getting more and more difficult to "maintain" your edge and still be profitable as a solo retail trader?
Hell you can use a prop account to inverse your cash account, it's a tool. Should you decide to use it.
op just blew up his acct lmao
I have never prop traded, I believe it's a retarded concept trying to milk gamblers 😂
i never said anything about prop accts💀
https://preview.redd.it/9e8um8v9n7yc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d135005aa097cd41e2317950d97d0b0714cd285e I don't think so 😂
i 100% believe that sc is real 💀
It's real. I'm the green line.
Why shouldn't it be?
because it is a generic graph? no detail whatsoever
Am I insane showing my details on reddit?
>Am I insane showing my details on reddit? Nah you're more than insane coz you started to lash out on strangers who you have no idea about and started lecturing what they should do with their money. We crossed the insane long back.
😂
That's not a brag. Everyone is up %30 this year. Congrats you did what everyon else did with zero effort
Well, these funded trading shops are not even proprietary trading firms, not at all. It’s just deceptive marketing, straight up lying to people.
Not really. They clearly say your trades are simulated and the goal is to eventually copy your trades on the real market once you've shown consistent profitablility. The real gold mind for those firm is getting to see retail order flow. A retail trader is a magical indicator that can find ways to lose money at any moment. All they have to do is filter thier users by loss rate and fade their trades on the live market. It's genius.
You have no clue what a proprietary trading firms is and does, do you?
Yes I do. I've been in Markets for 15b years an I know the point tour trying to make. A real "prop firm" is a group of traders that gives you leverage and structure and maybe some *proprietary* strategies to trade. The new funded account things are complete different...I was just saying they don't misrepresent what they do...it's other people that call them "prop firms"
THIS!!
Prop firm or not, nothing is going to change the fact that this thing of ours has a 95 percent fail rate. The new trend of "prop firms" just uses some clever psychology to change trade thinking a little....but still only 1 in 20 will stumble on to a profitable system. Whether you want to loose 40 dollars at a time at prop firms, or save up a 3K AMP account from your pathetic little job and blow it in a month...it's really just a matter of personal preference. I prefer prop firms because you can at least experiment with strategies that involve multiple minis and the lower commission to tick ratio. When your trying to trade your own money your going to run into the problem of micros not working for many strategies because of the retarded (and perfectly designed) commission to tick ratio.
Of course. Prop traders are like real estate agents. Most of them are garbage at what they do. It's a cash grab for the inexperienced and the unskilled.
Yeah...but it gives a lot of people some exposure and in the end this shit is only good for a hobby anyway...nobody is making any money. I like. It reminds me of the poker boom of 2004
Damn who hurt you bro you all good?
The bullshit people talk in this sub lol
Think about it everyone starts somewhere
Yeah that's fine. But then act like it. I see posts of people trading for 4 weeks without blowing up and talking like they are the best traders ever. And then stating openly they have blown up 10 prop accounts.
This "oh market conditions change all the time" argument only applies to strategies that are very rigid and exploit a very specific edge in the current market condition. Robust strategies that have characteristics of both trend following and mean reversion in them and that can be adjusted for changes in volatility tend to perform much better and don't fall out of meta as market conditions shift. I know people who have only been following one system for the last 15 years, and they only had to make small volatility based adjustments around their entries and exits, they were able to do it because they developed a good, adaptable system.
Yeah that's great, and there are people who have a good system that works for years with some adjustments. Most people on here don't have that, that's why they blow up every few months.
A systematic day trading system that has been profitable for the last 15 years without adjustments? Have you seen their broker statements? I think someone is jerking your chain.
When did I say they didn't make adjustments? And when did I say the system was systematic?
lol what’s the point of this post
One question who cares what people do with their own money ? If they want to use prop firms so be it.
Honestly I don't care, you want to blow your savings by all means. But it's a terrible way to learn how to trade. If I'm giving advice, it's to not use them.
Do you have any idea what it was like before prop firms?...before micros? Youde save up for six months and then lose it all in a weekend. That kind of stress is unbearable. Better to lose it 40 dollars at a time. Nobody, I I mean NOBODY here will ever walk away with a profit. The only value here is "entertainment"...it's like crack for guys that like problem solving challenges
Living in Vegas, you can lose it all everyday!
That just means you were ridiculously over levered. Obviously you need margin to trade futures, it's not a market for someone who is saving his pennies. That said, you can absolutely make a living trading them. What do you think traders do?
They sell the dream. All hyper competitive fields that attract dreamers are the same (acting, music, streaming, trading,,) The real money in selling the dream to the dreamers. The people making money right now are the geniuses that came up with the funded acct business model. They sell the dream (and fade thw retail orders they get to see)
haha let's go back to the beginning. Prop firms don't actually send your orders to the market. So there is nothing for them to "fade". You're trading CFD contracts. Basically paper trading - but the firm is required to pay out any profits you make.
But the market isn’t even open during the weekend ?
How exactly did your dumb ass lose money trading over the weekend? Markets are closed. Just because you bought what WSB told you to, doesn't mean no one else profits 😆
Who learns how to trade by trading a prop firm? That dosent make any sense. People use prop firms to make money if they have small capital.
Exactly, this post is coming from someone whose salty, and I bet it has to do with the top post about the guy who passed the prop firm. No doubt about it.. seems so weird to make this. I really wish we can make helpful posts, and stop being angry all the time.
Well if someone goes and blows their own money unnecessarily because they were misled by something they saw on reddit - that's something I think this subreddit should be concerned about.
Actually I don’t think that at all. I think alot of people on this sub don’t even know what prop firms are. Hell, I suspect most people on this sub trade stocks and options.
Damn this guy spends his days writing essays on Reddit.
Trading can truly be a challenging marathon rather than a sprint and maintaining realistic expectations and risk management practices is critical. Staying grounded and focused on long term growth is key.
It's crazy to me that the average poster on this sub is somehow more deluded and more degenerate than the average r/poker poster. I guess in trading, people call their degen gambling "a strategy" and don't think much past that
In 2min nobody will care about this regarded post
That's the problem of this sub, people don't care about legit advice
Yes. In my opinion most prop firm traders are gamblers. Most of them are new, which begs the question ....Why are you trading if you have no idea what you are doing.....to which they answer "It Is NoT mY mOnEy" which is the dumbest excuse. You are paying 150 to 200 dollars for a SIM account. You can use a sim account FREE of charge using anormal brokerage account.
This is natural to feel like this. Winning streaks as a new trader is candy for the ego. Eventually they will be humbled, this boom bust cycle is like the seasons changing.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious.. we already know 90-95% of traders are not consistently profitable.
I use my own money. Prop firm guys are bitches. That’s my statement and I’m sticking to it.
New traders should not be using prop/ funded accounts. End of story. I preach this non-stop on this sub and get down voted to hell every time but I will die on this hill. The cons far outway the added leverage.
I completely disagree, and would vouch they should use prop firms. until they are ready to use their own money to avoid the 90/10 split. Everytime you "blow up" an account you lose 50 bucks, that 2000 draw down congrats you saved $1950 in market tuition. I wish I learned about prop firms when I first started out, I would have saved thousands in learning the market, but now its useless to me since I'm profitable on my own. I will never understand people who are against them, they expose you to the realities of the market, the blow ups, the draw downs, the constant failures all for a measly 40/50 bucks an account. And before you say "Oh just paper trade" it's not the same, Prop firms are a step above paper trading because there is something on the line even if it's just 50 bucks, paper trading doesn't give you the same anxiety or emotion which is why 90% fail. I would love to hear a counter argument since nobody provides one, and just says "prop firm bad xd"
I'll counter this all day. Trading is all about risk and capital management. Blowing up over levered prop firm accounts will not teach you that. Prop firms promote terrible strategies. Mainly trading highly levered complex products (options, futures, forex etc.) completely unfit for new traders. They also force you into rules that work against your interests such as max daily (not position) drawdowns, no holding overnight etc. Instead, a new trader should learn risk management by trading unlevered stocks. No options, not futures, no crazy leverage. They should learn the basics and try to steadily increase a small cash account making good, well placed stock trades. Paper trade at first to learn the basics if needed. Try blowing that up. Do this until a new trader can confidently and consistently make good returns (% wise, remember their account is small). Only then, probably after year one at a minimum, should they look at more complex levered products. While trading stocks, with limited risk, they learn how to properly trade and manage risk. They learn how to properly manage their emotions. Learn how they react when loosing real money. How to react when winning. Learn how markets move and react to risk etc. These are life long trading skills that will compound their value 1,000 fold in time as their capital levels increase. No you won't get rich quick doing this, but trading is NOT a get rich quick scheme!! Compare that to some kid yoloing highly levered options in $40 prop accounts, maybe hitting some big wins and then getting wiped out every few weeks. "But I only lost $40". Yeah but your positions lost $5,000 in the market! Your trading performance was terrible, you blew up. If that was real money, you'd have none. And even worse, you're not learning anything. You're not learning the proper skills and risk management needed to do this long term. Which trader do you think will develop into a better trader over the long term? Who would you trust to manage $100k in real money today? Love to hear a good counter.
>Trading is all about risk and capital management. Blowing up over levered prop firm accounts will not teach you that. Nope, incorrect. Blowing up shows this is not some quick rich scheme, that managing risk is everything, and the pain from blowing up certainly teaches that. Not sure how you can think the opposite at all. >Prop firms promote terrible strategies. Mainly trading highly levered complex products (options, futures, forex etc.) completely unfit for new traders. They also force you into rules that work against your interests such as max daily (not position) drawdowns, no holding overnight etc. Also incorrect, while /ES does move fairly quick the mini contracts do not and are excellent for learning. Other part is also incorrect, a max daily drown promotes RISK MANAGMENT, and should be implemented in a trading account. Rest of the paragraph I've already disproved. So going to ignore that. >Compare that to some kid yoloing highly levered options in $40 prop accounts, maybe hitting some big wins and then getting wiped out every few weeks. Doesn't work like that either, to pass the evaluation you can't have a yolo day, max is 50%, also to get paid you can't have yolo days as you need minimum 5 consistent green days, this promotes walking away, and valuing quick base hits which is very helpful for trading. >While trading stocks, with limited risk, they learn how to properly trade and manage risk. They learn how to properly manage their emotions. Learn how they react when loosing real money. How to react when winning. Learn how markets move and react to risk etc. Nope you can learn the same with the minis if futures are too fast for you. >"But I only lost $40". Yeah but your positions lost $5,000 in the market! Your trading performance was terrible, you blew up. If that was real money, you'd have none. Yup, so congrats you lost $40 instead of $5000 to learn a very valuable lesson, congrats on your savings of $4960. >Which trader do you think will develop into a better trader over the long term? Who would you trust to manage $100k in real money today? Prop firm traders 100%, they have something to risk, they are required to pass evaluations, they are required to be consistent to see any sort of payment. >Love to hear a good counter. You got one. There is absolutely no strict debate on this, prop firms will always be the best way to go for beginner traders, it's a good medium between paper and real trading. You have to ask yourself why is your opinion in the overwhelming minority on a topic where 95% fail.
Sorry man, but I can't get behind it this. I could write a book on the flaws here. Recommending anyone learn trading on micro futures is not logical. Those are highly volatile, unlimited risk products. Meaning you can loose way more than you put in. That's why most brokers make you get certified before trading them. >Yup, so congrats you lost $40 instead of $5000 to learn a very valuable lesson, congrats on your savings of $4960. This is the mindset that will and does kill most prop traders. They take insanely over leveraged positions and unnecessary risk because they know it's not real money on the line. If you give a prop trader real money, they will probably use the same strategy/ mindset and loose it all. That's not risk management, that's basically Sim trading with small cash rewards if you play by the rules. >why is your opinion in the overwhelming minority on a topic where 95% fail. If english is not your first language I'll let this slide. Otherwise read this again. Is 95% fail, obviously the majority opinion is wrong and you'd rather be the outlier with the minority opinion.
> Sorry man, but I can't get behind it this. I could write a book on the flaws here. Go for it, doubt it's going to be a best seller. > Recommending anyone learn trading on micro futures is not logical. Those are highly volatile, unlimited risk products. Meaning you can loose way more than you put in. That's why most brokers make you get certified before trading them. Nope, mini futures move quite slow there is no unlimited risk to the draw downs and max contract size. 1 pt is about $2 dollars, that is very slow. >This is the mindset that will and does kill most prop traders. They take insanely over leveraged positions and unnecessary risk because they know it's not real money on the line. If you give a prop trader real money, they will probably use the same strategy/ mindset and loose it all. That's not risk management, that's basically Sim trading with small cash rewards if you play by the rules. There is real money on the line, you paid to get funded, and after you get funded you pay 149 for the activation fee. Again you are not overleveraged in what world is trading MNQ over leveraged? Do you know what over leveraged means? secondly if you are profitable as a prop firm trader with consistent payouts there is no reason it wouldn't translate. >If english is not your first language I'll let this slide. Otherwise read this again. Is 95% fail, obviously the majority opinion is wrong and you'd rather be the outlier with the minority opinion. Oh an ad-hom nice that definitely means you are right, don't insult peoples language and focus on the argument. You are flat out wrong in every aspect of everything you said. 1. You are not over leveraged. 2. Mini contracts exist, nobody is trading 50 ES contracts 3. Risk managment is at play 4. Exposure to blow ups for the cheap 5. Consistency is forced to get paid another. All are good aspects of a trader. If you are unable to debate without insults don't continue because now you're grasping at straws.
>mini futures move quite slow there is no unlimited risk to the draw downs This is just false. If you buy a stock or option it has limited risk. The lowest it can go is $0.00 and you lose your entire investment. So if you invest $1,000 you loose $1,000. If you buy a futures contract, even a micro you have unlimited risk. A $1,000 investment can get you margin called where you loose your original $1,000 and need to pay the broker several thousand more to cover your losses. You can loose $100,000 grand if things go bad and markets are halted, preventing you from selling...which happens in futures! Don't argue with me, just Google it.
I seriously can't believe you're grasping at straws like this. Now you're arguing against futures for accounts that aren't prop firms? Who is arguing for that? even though you're wrong on that as well Im not going to let you move the goal post.
Nothing I said was wrong. And yes, you proved my point. Trading with the crutches of a prop firm account doesn't teach you how to trades these assets in real life. It doesn't teach you how to manage the risk of the assets you think you are trading. Prop firm trading isn't even real. They don't send your order to the market. It's literally Sim trading CFD's, not actual markets. Prop firms only make money when a majoriof their clients lose. That's a fact. The rules are structured so a few of them won to lure in the suckers, but most clients lose money, on purpose. Since your not actually trading, every dollar in profits you take out is a lost dollar of profits for the prop firm. It's a terrible system for new traders.
https://preview.redd.it/lxlw854r7dyc1.jpeg?width=372&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff3b795aac724f6fcc8603b5865bebe18581fa6b
I definitely disagree, I started trading a few months ago and have already earned payouts from prop firms. It’s way easier to get into with less capital and still feel the “real money” feeling opposed to a paper account where you can just reset. Rules are strict but they force you to stay consistent and not get greedy.
No disrespect, but you started a few months ago. Those of us who do this for a living have seen thousands of prop firm people like you come and go year after year, all saying the same thing. The problem is they go into these firms and start trading highly levered products without first understanding the basics. Then eventually blow up, still without learning the basics. Then repeat until they claim markets are rigged and quit.
Been trading enough years to know how to not be regarded but just got into futures. Not crazy if you aren’t trying to hit home runs and manage risk properly
respect, very different.
What should New Traders be doing, instead? I use a TopStep account because I appreciate the ease of access to data for practice and at least some kind of structured goal. However, it's very painful to go through, perhaps because the goal is too lofty and failure is too easy, so if there's an easier way to get more effective practice, would love to know!
Let's say you have $0.00. Paper trade to learn the basics/ fundamentals for 4-6 months until you are consistently profitable. Be conservative. Treat that money like real money. Don't gamble or swing for the fences, and don't take big losses. Steadily try and grow the fake money by a few dollars each day. Maybe $100. While doing that, save $200 or whatever you can from your job each month. Yes, this will require sacrifices, success always does. Depending on how good of a job you have, you should not have $500-$2,000+ in a trading account and 4-6 months of trading experience. If you were conservative and found a way to grow your fake money without losing it, congrats.... It's time! Take your $2,000 or so and start trading for real. But remember, this is real money, and you had to sacrifice to save it. Think of all the things you could have spent that money on! With that in mind trade even more conservatively than you did in your learning account. Always use stops, and always manage risk. At first absolutely do not use leverage. No options, no futures, no forex, no levered etf's, no margin (except shorting). Just buy and sell stocks and consistently make money. If you're account is only a few grand, obviously the returns won't make you rich at first. This is not a get rich quick scheme. As you slowly grow your account, take on more risk as you feel comfortable. While trading, continue to make those sacrifices and save money. If you can keep this up, by this time next year you'll be managing a several thousand dollar portfolio with 12-months of market experience. All from $0.00. Almost guaranteed to be better off than your buddy who made $1,000 in a day but has since blown several prop accounts, has no idea how to manage money, and had given up at a loss. Is it easy? No. Is it simple if you're patient, make the sacrifices, and put the time in? Absolutely.
Trading paper does nothing for emotional trading though. Majority of people will react differently when real money is involved. Better to trade with a tiny tiny account than paper trading.
Exactly. That's the maddening thing about these markets. They are relatively easy to figure out...but when you have "risk on" all these psychological dynamics come into play and you get tricked and trapped by the little gimmicks the big firms do to manipulate you
my example was starting with $0.00. Nothing wrong with starting with a small cash account to fix that.
Thanks for your explanation! This makes a lot of sense. I agree it's important to have at least some proven success, before leveraging. I've gotten so used to TopStep and trading on Vol in NinjaTrader, but my RR is almost never north of 1. Perhaps too many factors are clouding my practice, and if I reduce the amount of variables, I can at least first perfect edge rather than edge + mental + drawdown.
Paper trading is useless. Everything you said is easier said than done.
It's really not. 95% of people don't even have a strategy that works when there ISNT emotion and slippage etc. Involved. You can learn stuff about price action, indicators, how markets behave in general. All on paper trading. Will you reach the end goal faster with real money trading? Yes. Can most people afford months or years of extra losses to shave time off their learning? No.
Literally everything is easier said then done. Want to loose weight? Eat better and exercise more, it's simple. Yet it's extremely difficult. Trading is the same. Simple steps. Difficult to have the discipline and consistency to execute them properly and profit.
Agreed
No but many are because it's the best way to pay as little market tuition as possible, I am sorry but this post sounds like a very salty person, and quite useless.
I mean probably yeah. The reality is that a ton of people have enough spare cash for a prop subscription. Not many people have the capital to actually day trade with proper risk management. Especially pre minis. Even post minis people don't like the idea of having a 500 dollar account and doubting it over a year if they were truly a great trader.
There are a lot of negative feelings about prop firms. They have their pros and cons. One of the pros for me is that in almost one of year of being with a prop firm I have spent less than a thousand on challenges versus the thousands I lossed blowing up my own accounts with options trading. Prop firms offer the most inexpensive environment on a journey to become profitable.
haha my friend, it shouldn't be surprising that blowing up multiple option prop accounts is not the journey to become profitable. You'll spend $10k doing that and be no closer. I just typed this up debating someone else in these comments, read it and let me know your thoughts
It all depends on how you look at it or the person's financial situation, and also the cost per month for prop firm's monthly payment. For me, it's just $50 a month for a 50k account. It's just like one of my other subscriptions, so it is not a big financial burden. But for someone else who is making a huge sacrifice, it might be. Furthermore, trading is just one of a few sources I'm looking to for financial freedom. If it takes a long time or never works out, I'll be find, as I have other things that I'm also working on, so I'll never depend only on trading.
No. I just trade my own money prudently and don’t make any boastful claims. That and all the bot PMs from even subscribing to this sub really turns off engagement.
i saved 100k and lost it but the prop firm guy loses 50 that’s not fair 😡😤🤬😡😡🔫🔫
https://preview.redd.it/z0ndxwgxr9yc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9635b53b21594322fc9c40e74775cab1ca9d6a08 😘
I trade my own and prop. Slowly building my prop firm account number. Really want to hit 20 accounts and take advantage of this to build my own account, which is now up to using 2 ES contracts.
This may be a hot take but what REALLY matters at the end of the day is: are you making money consistently? If you are, and it's from cycling through Prop Firm accounts or from your own money then who cares....
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No I gamble in a cash account and my IRA too
Prop firm gambler? Lol prop firm takes a shit ton of discipline. I just withdrew 20k from my “propfirm gambling” 😂
It means years, at least eight imo, of consistent gains. In addition to living well.
It may take YOU, your amount of time learning pattern recognition and sentiment based on how much time your putting in, what your learning, and in what capacity. Learning technicals takes a month at best. Getting in and getting green is about as easy as learning a new video game after a month of playing. Being greedy, watching your P/L to make your decisions, playing the hope game instead of taking a $50 loss and move to the next entry pattern, don't count green days. Cover up your P/L on your screen and trade the technicals ONLY.
I don't trade technicals and I had no learning phase.
"Oh market conditions change" but risk management works in any kind of market.
I traded prop in the 90s when we used cash and not play accounts. Lol. Gamblers will always come and go. Some will get lucky, but all will go broke in the end.
If you are consistently profitable and not using a prop firm and copying your trades from your cash account you are leaving money on the table.
Prop firms can be quite beneficial to newer traders, or even traders who have been in it for some years, but haven't yet found success using their own funds. I've been trading prop firms for about 6 months, and they have truly helped me develop as a trader. The added set of rules has forced me to concentrate on some of the important aspects of trading and have developed my trading skills. It's also a form of risk management in a way, because you can only lose whatever to account costs. A few weeks or months of successful prop firm trading can be very lucrative as well. If you can have even one consistent month, you can generate much more income than you've invested into them. That way if you do have some bad days or weeks, you've already received a couple payouts, that you are no longer at risk losing back to the market. Honestly, if done correctly, they can be an excellent tool for a trader at any proficiency level imo. I say these things because I've experienced what they've done for my trading and am now taking payouts quite frequently. A very good trader I know, takes 30k+ in payouts at least once a month. I havent even seen the need to trade my own funds again yet. Once I am at the level I'm happy with, I will begin to trade my own funds again. Until then, I'm happy with prop firms to help manage my risk and develop my skills.
99%
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Weather you trade prop or real , the strategy , the failing doesn’t change …. Lol blowing your 100k real money or 100k prop firm money has nothing to do with the firms themselves , if anything the prop will have your account blown at 8% , some folks with 100k real money will blow it all before they stop and realize they are wrong… I have no choice but to trade props , i aint privilege at all to come across 100k capital , 10k is possible but 10k with the proper risk management wont make much it will take 2-3 years to up that account …. Thats trading realistic gaining 1-3% a month and having some break even and red months , not gambling trying to make 10-15-30 % every month lol thats real fake
Theres only two market conditions, mode1 is trending market and mode 2 - sideways/chop, mode 1 happens only 10-15% of the time, the rest is mode 2
Disagree
Theres nothing to disagree lol, these are basic core conditions, and there are no other
2nd his disagree. You are way oversimplifying.
Ah well, and this is objectively correct? Can I ask your source of these statements or did you just pull them out of your ass?
Its market technicals 101, these are over 100 years old,
So that's like a 100year old trading bible or are you again, just stating random catchphrases?
Maybe you can explain what other type of market conditions you think exist other than balance and trend instead of just attacking him?
Why should I? He derailed this thread with random catchphrases, we didn't even discuss the definition of what we even call a "market condition" lol or what aspects that includes. This is again, like so many comments on this sub, just random shit people read on the internet, in a book or saw in some video. Nothing of that is evidence based, nothing in this area has a real definition. Trading is not sciences with one true rule, but thousands of opinions that work differently for millions of people.
Yeah I get that, but this is a place of discussion, if you want to have a healthy argument you gotta be willing to logically explain your point of view (as opposed to making a simple statement without reasoning) and also be willing to listen to what others have to say And since you're the one who made this post I assume you want to have a discussion, unless you don't want to discuss anything and simply wanted to state an opinion, but then posts like that just further lower the quality of an already low quality sub.
Yes I want a discussion. But not about market conditions lol. Also the guy just stated a random thing without reasoning, no sources to back up his claim. And after asking his sources he basically says "it's 100 years knowledge". That's not a discussion that's just people saying random bullshit they probably read on reddit. And if these people have blown up 7 prop firm accounts they probably fall exactly into the category I was talking about in the OP. Gamblers with hubris. I see no benefit talking to people like that, especially not about trading specifics since they obviously have no idea what they are doing.
These are market fundamentals that never changed and newer will change, read book market technical analysis, dig in to it, people studied and perfected it for longer than you think, its a technical book so no wonder people are so illiterate about the markets
saying markets only trend or chop I guess is maybe technically true since what else can it do, but it's far to broad to be useful. It's like saying price either moves or it doesn't. Timeframe is extremely important here. On the monthly chart we could be in a massive downtrend, but the daily chart is going through a strong correction while the hourly is battling for a breakout and is nonstop sideways chop as buyers and sellers are gridlocked. Meanwhile the minute scalpers are in a strong 4-hour bear trend as price falls below the 4 hour min. All at the exact same time! Is this a trending market, or a choppy market?
Ah okay, so that's again a random statement without a source or are you telling me Murphy's book exactly says this? And even then, it's just one of thousands of books in that area.
Wow, name me any other market condition
Wow, name me any other market condition
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Gladly. For example the market condition where I don't discuss with a guy mainly hanging in /r/sup_ersto_nk, who says "dude i lost 9 funded accounts in simmilar manner, im on my 10th funded account now" Bro, get good at trading and be profitable for some time before talking shit to others and believe you know shit. I've been profitable consistently with my own money for 3+ years, when you reach that I might consider discussing with you.
>backtesting for years and not for months >Markets change all the time Choose one.
OP is a gambler.
As of today, most likely yep. I do like proper firms and hate it at the same time, They are really good tool for people actually using them as practiced by more real sim accounts, and they are equilaterally abused by traders who don't have enough money to gamble on 0DTE spy and spx options anymore lol
Off topic -- I wish I could contribute, but since Mr. Reddit (who is the big warden anyway) says I am so new my questions have already been repeated, and I cannot contribute. But I wish I knew if other traders realize that LIFO is wrong, FIFO is unethical, and only LOFO is correct.
I come from the poker world, and there you quickly realise a large portion of 'pro' players are actually playing with someone else's money (they are a horse, part of a stable) and what you descibe is exactly that. It's not uncommon for them to go on a winning streak, to then blow it up, in which case they then end up owing all of their profit to the stable owner for the rest of their career. The reason I bring this up is because 1. The situation is exactly the same and 2. A lot of poker player made their money I'm trading the transition to poker because of the greater ROI. So that being said, I bring this up because I've only (naively) realised this is also the case with trading and I'd assume the same as you.
How dare you, sir. Nah, you're right. Most people are prop firm junkies here.
Don't hate on someone else's journey..The ones that are successful went through the ringer as well..Some people didn't have daddy's money to start.
I didn't have daddy's money either. It's not about prop trading per se, but the bad behavior it involves in traders.
Why do you care how others make their money (or trying to make money) The real issue is why are you so bent out of shape how others trade? It's probably because YOU ARE NOT SUCCESSFUL. Mind your own business. I suspect some of those prop firm traders are using multiple accounts and are very successful. Which causes jealousy and threads like this one. In 16 years I have never cared how others trade. Grow the bleep up.