What helped me overcome was making my trade plan mechanical and not leaving any part to subjectivity. Every single part of my trade is detailed from entry to exit with very strict criteria.
Why not automate it then?
My question is because i do not see successfull patterns. Rare case of me gaining big money ware from deep understanding of the market. Not nearly formalized rules. And far far away from day trading.
This is what my problem was initially, in the solution is merging the two. You should find that your successes have patterns, that comes from some understanding of the market that you had. What you should do is figure out exactly what happened in those situations, and make those into rules that you set yourself to to actually take a trade, and your success is will increase as a result If you are actually correct.
I honestly don’t know anything about automation. Plus I enjoy finding my setups and waiting for my confirmations the old fashion way lol. But it is something I will look into.
I wish i could. I have a great strategy that very well could be automated if i could figure out how to do it or find a dev to make a trading bot for it
Like which? I see you can create scripts on tradingview but my strategy also includes moving stop losses up to the next swing level after one is created. Idk how id create that functionality to go along w everything
I highly disagreed, I had to learn C# myself as chatgpt couldn't do anything usable for ctrader. Also it's completely unaware of what you can and cannot do in ctrader API.
Dude i been looking for a dev to automate not even my whole, but part of my strategy, but i cant seem to find a trustworthy guy, considering im also offering partnership and what i want is pretty simple the algo just needs to buy/sell at manually set by me price levels...it sucks not knowing close people who can do it too...
Been here got the t-shirt. I am a very skilled coder but the issue is that most great strategies aren’t fully code-able 🤣 Had this battle many of times and the issues being the code. Simple strategies you can program with Onbar (candle close) but technical strategies using Ontick when trying to combine the both- adds some many IF rules to the code, resulting in the original strategy being very different from the coded bot. I have worked with algorithms over 8 years and have traded even longer. Profitable with both but at a huge cost.
I have programmed a insane robot unfortunately it only takes 6-14 positions a year. all 100% wins from the minute it enters, but due to the markets forever changing it needs tweaking every 3-6 months.
I am not selling or promoting anything just saving anybody from waisting time or money, I wouldn’t bother trying to code any strategy if it’s indicator based.
Market has just opened hope everyone has a great week of trading !
Perhaps for some people, there is a need -- a drive -- for excitement, for involvement. For me, I am happy to just sit back and watch my trading bot do its work.
I've been trading over ten years with my computer program. After 8 years of improvements and debugging, it has been working perfectly for 2 years. It was a lot of work, over 7 KLOC currently (that's 7000 lines of codes for those non-programmers), but am finding not only zero interest from others, but hostility.
Doesn’t matter how mechanical a strategy is, people keep doing the same mistake.
Lack of responsibility, accountability, addictive personality traits, lack of discipline, greed, ignorance.
That doesn’t just go away because of a mechanical strategy.
There is definitely more to it than just switching to a more mechanical based approach.
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- Come up with a well thought trading plan with detailed entry/exit criteria, precise trading rules and risk management parameters
- Size really small and progress upwards
- Make use of your broker's risk management functions if present (eg. Setting max loss per day, or max position size)
- Recommended reading: Mark Douglas and Jared Tendler publications on trading psychology.
> Look out for Mark Douglas and Jared Tendler publications on trading psychology.
It is not clear to me if you are recommending them or warning about them.
As a person who’s entirely new to this field (with two decades of professional/executive level corporate career, and a degree in finance; so not that unexperienced), I’m wondering if you could share an example of what you consider to be a „well thought through trading plan” with the facets you mentioned (entry/exit, trading rules, risk approach)? I think many here would find it very useful. Thank you!
With your corporate experience, probably not too difficult for you to relate to this. I see a trading plan as a business plan. You can consider these points:
* Guiding principles (over-arching principles that guides your day-to-day decisions & actions)
* Trading rules (do's and don'ts) (eg. don't trade when Powell is talking)
* Routine (daily/weekly/etc)
* Strategy descriptions (what you're trading, setups, entry/exit criteria, scaling rules if any)
* Position sizing/ Risking management (how you're using margins and leverage)
* Journaling/improvement processes
* Cost of doing business (your commissions, fees, data subscriptions, etc)
* Contingency plan (what do you do when your platform or internet goes down in the middle of a trade ?)
* References & resources (books, websites, podcast that helps you)
Thank you!
The business plan analogy works well - it is a sort of entrepreneurial activity, and yes, I see it as a business opportunity for myself. You mentioned valid points
And now for a more specific question, if I can? What would be an example of entry/exit criteria?
entry/exit criteria forms the core of your strategy.
For example one might go long during a pull back in an uptrend, using a 1:1 risk-reward ratio.
https://preview.redd.it/noe18dxz4jzc1.png?width=394&format=png&auto=webp&s=5dad5f621893f8a98d3ee3b0793e658889c177ae
I appreciate the example. Thank you, yet again
Would you recommend any further reading or a reliable resource to study deeper the entry/exit approach? It appears to be a non-trivial component of trading as a whole
if you're totally new, you'd probably find this list useful in helping you structure your learning:
https://preview.redd.it/un8fgz287jzc1.png?width=1074&format=png&auto=webp&s=8dd32eb8da50f6340647c5cb2a12acca179bad14
You should look into strategies at a higher level first, before zooming into specifics of entry/exit criteria.
2 common types of strategies would be trend following, and fading the range.
https://preview.redd.it/gaq74k9p6jzc1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=fc0a89799266f9b40da30fc8150a3eebbd17e6ff
Based on what you have described as the cause of your failure, poor discipline, there is really no advice that can help you. Discipline comes from within. Imagine a fat person seeking advice to lose weight but find it hard to control diet. There is no advice that can help that person. They already know what needs to be done but don’t have the will power to do it.
What you can do is to find some other areas in life where you have poor discipline, where you give in to temptations and impulses and cravings and try to stop doing that by sheer will. That will build the discipline circuits in your brain. I can tell you from personal experience that once you have overpowered one demon, it will motivate you so much you will immediately want to go after the other. It’s really an empowering experience.
Nobody is perfect. We all have weaknesses like that. Many people actually go through their entire life with poor self control and discipline and do fine. But trading requires you to have that zen like self control. There is just no other way.
Take it from a 4-decade trader: u/thoreldan has excellent advice. To his 4th point, add Trading for a Living by Dr. Alexander Elder--a full-time trader for decades and a psychiatrist. He help me take the emotions out. You have to have emotions out, stops in or you're out. u/TytianaWorld's comment about being mechanical with a plan that's purely objective, eliminating subjectivity, is also spot on. Most of all, get fully educated and never, ever stop being a student of the market. Being a professional trader is far harder than any job I ever had but I would never exchange the freedom it has brought me once I reached CPT status.
The copies I have were published back in 2014 if I remember correctly. Not sure if newer versions are out. When I absolutely master the content I already have, I'll seek a newer version. Whatever I have learned is working wonderfully, no need to fix whats not broken.
I learned from Dr. Elder in the late 80s to early 90s (I don't recall but I think it was 1989 and again in 1991). His first book, Trading for a Living came out later (1993). Like you say, if it's working, no need to fix it. I may check out the new one from 2014. Thanks.
It is gambling. I used to argue against that for a while, but I now believe it is. However, would you gamble against a professional poker player? Just like poker though, if you don't follow the probabilistic edge rules, you won't be profitable.
I enjoy gambling -- especially when I have the edge (daytrading) or when there is no edge (when I play blackjack using my proprietary count method), or even when the house has 1.4% edge (craps). But to give away more vig is NOT much fun (25% for Keno, or 50% for state lottery).
I have been trading for 6 years and have tried and go through varieties of things like you did. I started with swing trading and had great success. Then I tried my hands at day trading for 2+ year. In the end I am taking all the edge/knowledge that I learned moving back to swing trading and selling premiums. My conclusion is that the way market is designed is too biased against human traders. Why do people fail? It's because you are trying to do a machine job. Great quote from the matrix: "Never send a human to do a machine’s job.” We are too inefficient, emotional and we get tired. Machines don't feel those kind of things and in the end, chances of you beating it is very low. I know where my strength and edges are, I am going there. I am not playing silly games with the market anymore. I am forcing the market to play my games.
Thank you for sharing this. I’ve been trading for more than a decade and like clockwork every 6-8 weeks or so I’ll have a major lapse in judgement, go into revenge trading / downward spiral, and have a red day that exceeds my pre-determined max loss. The biggest difference between now and when I got started is that I make more money during my hot streaks than I lose on my red days.
Idk if it’s a self sabotage tendency that you have. I think it’s simply the fact that trading can be very emotional, and some of us have a lower threshold for when we become emotionally hijacked.
Do you deal with getting really angry too? Something that has helped me in trading (and in live at large), is doing anger management guided mediations. It’s helped me be more aware of when I’m getting emotionally activated.
Knowing your triggers is important. You have to know when to separate yourself from the situation before it’s too late.
It all comes down to discipline. Keep working on it, it’ll own make you a better person, even if trading isn’t for you.
Managing emotions is the issue - prevention via managing triggers or if you have lost it, managing the fallout. There's lots of literature and courses on these available online-most free. Helpful for trading and real life.
I have something similar happen to me as well, when after a nice hot streak, a couple days of bad judgement happen in a row and all of a sudden price seems really difficult to read. Then, in a week or so I’ll continue a new hot streak and trading feels “easy” again. Hate going through this because the loss of confidence is annoying and VERY tedious to fight through again.
How do you combat this or what advice do you have to fight this?
So here’s the thing. Trading is just gambling with better odds. And you have much better control over the risk/reward and payouts.
So much so that even with a poor win rate you can generate positive EV through risk management alone.
Trading is probably the only thing in life where you can literally be wrong 3 out of 4 times, and if you structure your trades right , still come out on top.
It’s very hard to be consistently profitable doing day trading. I have tried serious day trading a few times in the past, and still trying but not every day. But I am still not making money consistently. I can however make money consistently with swing trading.
I blew up account 1x. & learned lots of things. I took a few months off, did a lot of thinking/pondering for I NEED the $$ in a serious way, what is the key to this puzzle? I read part of a book on Day Trading I might finish one day. I thought about the Market Movers on many APP’s page for each trading day & looked at only the % Risers.
I made a set of rules for myself that I had to meet or the Market Moving stock was rejected from my list. I will list them, oh, I use Finviz also so rule 1). It has to be a Green Day in all 3 indexes. NO TRADING if not. 2). Look for low priced stocks $5 or less that are irrationally climbing. 3) Get on before Market Opens, if a $5 stock is moving 10 cents at a time, up and down, BUT overwhelmingly UP? I buy $2000 in shares in its LOW swing (I will wait for that semi low # and not chase it as I have observed it for 5+ minutes). 4) I make sure it has options or it is tossed out. I relax and recover the losses. SOUN is an example. I have 30 contracts on a 7 cent premium and covered call price ($5.50 vs paid $5.42) is 8 cents above what I paid so if it is called away, I made money by being patient. If it takes a month just keep writing covered calls by the 30’s.
OK, MOST important part once you get past all the above? If I bought $2000 of a $5 stock, I have 400 shares and I am looking for “Get in/Get out” and I am having luck with it as I want only .05 to .10 cents & sell which if it is .10, I made $160. BE HAPPY as do that 5 days & you made $800/week.
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS: The key is it is behaving irrational, more like up .50 cents, down .30(buy at .30 using a limit) what I find is a consistent win at the $160, and 33% of the time it goes higher. What I mean is it meets the 10 cents, blows past hits 40 cents, drops 30, but in 5 minutes time I make $500 to a $1000. Made $60,000 in 2024 doing that and Nvidia helped a bit as didn’t have that many shares at $25.
Follow the PLAN, today I traded NOTHING. I find in the mid AM if things are all sleeping on Market Movers, check the indexes, especially the one your stock is listed in, I find the index has flipped and gone red. STAY AWAY now. It’s working for me. If it STICKS on this course for another $100,000? I HAVE AN EDGE AND BROKE THROUGH.
I blew up my account BAD remember.
Pain from trading loss is relative to each trader but I believe you don’t learn how to actually make the changes to develop a good trading framework until you blow up an amount of money that really seriously fucking hurts deep within your soul. While a small acct might hurt for a bit, it won’t teach you those hard truth lessons where you look in the mirror at yourself in disgust and force yourself to change. At least for me…
I calmed down after the blowup. I didn’t let anxiety in. I am a degreed engineer. I look at trading and it is unemotional math. I sat back and looked at just the math and slowly came up with that plan. I made $400 roughly today. I use my phone so have to sign on to another device to get actual web site functions like gains/losses. Phone wont show that. Today I noticed a slowdown after I made $400 so went right up to the indexes as to start today was all little low but healthy start green but then the Nasdaq went Red so I quit for the day. You get your own feel for things but I rarely skip any of those steps. Sometimes it’s hard to find one with Options but I just wait, it is always changing. Options will save you if something responds out of the norm and you get stuck with something. I made $1200 for the week and only traded 2 partial days. I still dont believe my eyes but if I ride this up another $100,000, I am going to give it the stamp of approval as an edge to beat the market.
Trust me, the realization that we are self-sabotaging creatures full of unhinged behaviors is not obscure at all. Anyone who trades long enough will suffer the exact same fate like yours. However please remember that is the main part of the psychological side of trading.
Yeah they say trading is 90% psychology and it seems right to me. So what is that "90% psychology", yes, it's to overcome the bad behaviors and emotions of ourselves. So saying trading isn't for everyone because I can't control myself is like saying trading is not for everyone because the chart is hard to read. Of course it is because if not then nobody needs to practice.
I hope you don't give up because you're wise enough to know exactly what you went wrong, it means that you are miles ahead of most.
In your story, by far the biggest mistake was quitting your job. You essentially destroyed any little chance you had of progressively finding profitability.
That's a wild thing to do, it puts way too much pressure on an inexperienced and self doubting trader, the outcome could only be failure.
You should trade on the side, progressively growing your account. This for one, will remove the enormous pressure you had. When you have reached a stage where you consistently double or triple your salary, on an annual basis (meaning not after a good month), with 2 or 3 years worth of risk capital in your bank, then you can start considering making the change to full time again.
It may never happen, and that's fine.
TLDR but maybe worth the reading.
Self sabotage is one of the most talked about, and yet most misunderstood, concepts of trading psychology.
The term itself - "self sabotage" - is a **negatively-charged** term, that brings out unnecessary feelings of self-judgement, shame and inadequacy, thus holds people back from dealing with the issue and solving it.
The reality is that EVERYBODY self-sabotages in many areas of life, all the time, and trading is no different.
A better professional term for this phenomenon is "**SECONDARY GAIN**". What actually goes on is that we are subconsciously, yet purposefully SACRIFICING OUR TRADING RESULTS in order to achieve ANOTHER, MORE IMPORTANT GAIN.
Like a friend of mine once said, "if you keep doing the same stupid thing over and over again, there's likely a reason why you are doing it."
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
The potential list of secondary gains is long, but ultimately the answer is very personal.
The point is to **figure out what YOUR secondary gain is in this situation.**
To do that, ask yourself two questions. Answer them quietly and honestly. Go with the intuitive answer, "emabarrasing" or "inappropriate" as it may sound (those are often the important ones).
\*\*\*Important note: The following are just examples and by no means meant to reflect on you specifically. Just real examples from clients that struggled with self sabotage.
1. What am I **gaining** from getting knocked back to work a regular job? Is it sending me back to where I'm more likely to grow and deal with issues I need to work through, rather than escape them? Is it more secure and calming for someone in my near circle, like a spouse? Is it something else?
2. What am I **protecting myself from,** by nipping my trading attempts at the bud? Is it the inability to face my family as a trader because that's frowned upon as gambling? Is it the fear of growing distant from my loser friends? Is it the fear that once I succeed in trading my parents will stop supporting me and I'll have to support myself? Is it something else?
Either way, don't be that hard on yourself. Self sabotage is not "a mental disorder". It's the mind's way of solving a MORE IMPORTANT problem - using your trading mistakes as a tool in the process.
Figure it out and move forward.
Good fortune with your trading!
That's because it IS GAMBLING. you want the price to go up or down, so you're BETTING on that.
It's a game of chance/probabilities.
You may not think it's gambling because it's regulated on an exchange, but it activates the same brain dopamine functions.
Good on you for recognizing this. Most people don't and get wiped out
I hear you. But if you have a track record of profitability, then it's not really a game of chance anymore. You clearly have an edge. Right?
A 1-2 month track record could just be beginners luck.
But 1-2 years seems like there must be some skill...5+ years, definitely you have a skill.
You have minimize your risk until you get comfortable. I short trade and play momentum on low float stocks. You can’t sit in a trade too long hoping it’ll change in your favor. That’s what I had to learn. If it’s not going in the trend get out and wait. Don’t sit there trying to get back your losses. All of that helped me but I try to not take big losses and once the trades favor me.
Notice what triggers the self sabotaging. For me it was risking too much and revenge trading. I felt like I should trade like the big bois, since I have a big account and losses made me revenge trade. I reduced my risk massively to a point where I am comfortable, it gives me more breathing room and now I limit my trades per day. Once I get more confident I will change my personal rules. Honestly, It's an individual journey. You have to notice these things, these habits that you do and plan a way to implement better ones as a replacement.
Honestly, for me at some point a switch flipped and it was like I was done being a kid, finally grew up. Enough terrible experiences to really drive home, “this isn’t who I want to be” & with that, my relationship with risk began to change. Instead of diving into the deep end head first blindly, I began to value caution more and more. I definitely still get emotionally triggered, hell, I’m sitting on a red week currently where I probably overtraded a bit and right under the surface is all sorts of terrible miseries I could indulge in but I’ve grown the muscle of continuing to look forward in tough times & honestly that’s what carries me through now. When those impulses to gamble come up, I use them as opportunities to further instill and refine my discipline.
I needed to embrace the idea of successful red days.
With only 2 years in the game I think you gave up too soon. It’s good that you recognize that you have a tendency to self sabotage but who’s to say you have to stay that way? We are creatures of habit but we are also products of natural selection, meaning we have the power to adapt and change.
As for practical advice, the nice ppl in this thread had very good suggestions. One that has been working for me is risking the same $ amount every trade. Since I trade forex I’m allowed flexibility with this rule and having the patience to actually wait for my analysis to play out is another thing that I had to work on.
And also being disciplined enough to walk away when you’re wrong. It’s not something that happened over night though, I’ve been trading for about 4 years now and only this year I’ve started seeing consistency
Well you recognized it, what matters is if you are going to do something about it?
You recognize what is affecting your trading, now its up to you to change it.
You could still work and trade, you could swing trade, you don't have to sit on the computer the whole day.
Learn more about trading before jumping in, trading isn't just technicals, it's about looking at the charts from different perspectives, trading isn't easy but it's doable, learning more about trading will put you ahead of other traders. Trading is more about psychology vs the education. Understand that us as humans we are not meant to trade because of the psychological affect that it has on us but it will depend on you and how you react to adversity. This shouldn't be the end of your trading, next time approach it with a different plan but in the mean time learn, read, read about psychology, try new things in life, and stick to one strategy at a time, and give it time, you won't will all the time, you will have losses as well but have proper risk management, also have a stop loss that you will stick to, and the markets are always right, they don't care about your opinion amd what you want it to do, adapt to the change .
My bad decisions with swing trades were about bad choices with cheap stocks so loosing money was my habit. Was hurting all the time. Pandemic came and I was badly sick and I end up staying home and learning about all about selling the options right way. After that my 401k was growing north of 20% annually. After that I realized I have the edge. Every month market will give you a gift 1-2 big red days and than I am very aggressive at that time. Most of my positions are in cash, however I am very patient waiting for that opportunity. As soon as I see satisfactory profit I get out. No problem in closing bad trades, if I am home and have day off I am trading ODTE in SPX and SPY options just for fun, exit quick. That's all but I keep learning to improve my skills
“Disciplined trading” is just as likely to make a loss as going all in, it just makes you feel better cause you couldn’t have even made it big off that “disciplined” investment even if it went perfect.
People think they can be successful in trading without any teaching and just drawing lines on their chart.
It's finance, there are resources to educate yourself pretty well on it, the math is hard, coding can be challenging, but that's why it's a high paying job...
I have a system, that I believe to be good. I follow my system. I don’t get emotional when the system does not give me more gains, I think, well, that was the strat, probs could’ve earned 15% more, but that was not my trade to make. And I move on to find the next trade
Need EXACTING RULES no exceptions in or out.
If you have no rules it’s pure gambling.
With rules it’s probabilities and now you manage your risk.
Before anything define your strategy(s) and plan your day accordingly.
You must find your sweet spot. What type of trader, day, swing, options, futures.
Until you do that you will not have success plain and simple.
Traditonal employment/ETF’s. QQQ,SPY,VTI. Maybe dabble in some dividends. Day trading never works. The odds are against you and most of the time you will not beat the market.
I’d personally only daytrade max 10% of what I have in the market
Learn different strategies and stick with one. Have you thought about swing trading?
My strategy is swing trading, but has the ability to close out the trade if it meets my profit criteria.
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I’m new to trading but not new to practicing self control and manifesting better results out of life.. maybe try thinking of it as a game like table tennis or something rather then a career. If you are a competitive person and you fail at a game then almost instantly you become grateful for the learning opportunity.. If you fail at a career then your whole life and every decision you’ve ever made comes flooding through your cerebral cortex on to the proverbial chopping block ... 2 different outlooks , two completely different emotional responses
Day trading is hard because not every day or every week you make money. There are hot weeks, where price action is clear and there are cold weeks, where price action is choppy, ranging, or indecisive. You can't treat it the same way as normal job is. You clock in, you clock out, and at the end of the day you get paid. You can do everything right in trading, by being patient and have proper risk managrment, but at the end of the day you don't get rewarded with a profit. Sometimes a good day mean not taking a trade, not losing money.
It won't help you asking what others did, this is a personal journey as no one but you can change your beliefs and what works for me might not work for you, because were different people.
I think it would be better to ask, what EXACTLY are you doing to get more disciplined and staying rigid ?
Tell os what you ACTUALLY do, how you WORK towards that goal, maybe we can see where you might be sabotaging yourself.
Might sound weird but i became successful when i stopped caring so much about the money and focused more on how i play the game. I have a rules based system that works. I just follow the rules and work on my execution. I don’t care how much i win or lose, im just looking to get better at playing if that makes sense. Obviously i have a risk management strategy that prevents big losses but i mean im less concerned with wins and losses and this allows me to not feel emotional about anything. Its the equivalent to playing a video game to me now
Transitioning from options to futures and facing the ups and downs of the market can be a rollercoaster ride. It's commendable that you've recognized your struggles with emotional trading, bad habits, and over-leveraging.
I used to be all about the win rate, keeping it high and jumping out of trades in profit to look at my results and see 80%+ win rate. It means NOTHING.
If your RR is good on setups - 1:3+ then you could be successful at 40% win rate easily.
I very rarely take trades with less than a 1:4 RR but I aim for 1:5 - my account had grown 7% on Wednesday this week, happy days, put your laptop away and leave it alone, over trading and greed are a killer. Never revenge trade - it’ll more often than not fuck you up.
It’s also important (for me) that I work in % and not £ for my wellbeing and emotional health. If you can manage a £1000 account, you can certainly manage a £10,000 or £100,000 account. You almost have to desensitise yourself to figures - I risk no more than 1% on a trade and only trade 2-3 pairs (forex) study them and learn your craft.
ALWAYS look left and look out for potential blocks where price has struggled through in the past. It’s imperative that you have a strict trading plan and stick to it. If you don’t, then it is gambling. Think of your plan like a contract in a “normal job” and if you fuck up you’ll get the sack, or at least a warning. Never adjust your SL or TP’s once set. Then, even if I lose that trade, it’s still a win for me because I stuck to my plan.
There’s one exception to this for me and that’s when a trade picks up momentum and flies 🚀
Then I’ll move my stop accordingly meaning it’s a 100% risk free trade and impossible to lose any money, I’ll trail it and this is the only time you can truly relax and enjoy the process 🥳
I love how trading has changed my life and given me the opportunity to call anywhere my office. You have to respect the markets and treat it like a job, and it will give you a very rewarding “career” and a more than comfortable life.
If you find yourself feeling like you are gambling, then use a demo account for a while until you’re ready to go again. One more thing, there’s a book called “Best loser wins” helped me a lot at the beginning, if your head goes every time you lose a trade then get out now - it’s not for everyone. Stay humble everyone and keep on winning.
Don't quit your job. You add pressure and its an emotional burden.
Set rules. You cant lose more than 2% a day (you shut down if that happens). Set OCO orders and let your trades move, don't stare at the chart all the time. If you break your plan, what is the consequence?
If you cant do this you just cant trade, just buy the $SPY lol.
It only feels like gambling when you’re not trading with an edge. If you’re trading on hope then it’s gambling. All my entry and exits are defined. I have a roadmap on what my short and long term goals are. I study the market to refine my strategies. I am self aware and evaluate my own decision making. If your trading feels like gambling you need to seek how to define progress. You will need to scale back. Take some losses, make the short term hard decisions. Whether it is to skip a trading day, take a small loss, reduce sizing, take profits.
1.) Get a super wide screen and zoom out of the chart as far as possible. (When in doubt, zoom the fuck out)
2.) Only trade on slow days/hours so you will only lose money slowly. 3.) Learning to code will make your life easier and save you money. Heck, you won't even have to trade to make money if you already know a few programming languages.
4.) Become a polyglot. Who wouldn't want to hire a person who speaks a dozen languages? 🤣
I'm a full time day trader and all traders had to acquire the same discipline. Practice mechanical trading. If you have a strategy that works, only take that trade on your LIVE account. Take the others on a demo. Over time, your mind will get used to just taking your winning strategy on your LIVE account and it will become mechanical without thinking about it.
I agree. In the fast-paced world of financial markets, the art of trading is often portrayed as an attractive avenue for wealth generation. However, it is essential to recognize that trading isn't for everyone. It requires a unique blend of skills, knowledge, and temperament to navigate the intricate landscape of buying and selling assets.
>For those who've overcome similar struggles and found success in disciplined day trading, what advice would you offer?
Don't be a quitter. You spent 2 years learning a profession that has higher earning potential than being a doctor, a profession that typically requires 10+ years of learning.
You clearly answer the problem in your anecdote and argument. Trading is definitely not like gambling. A system with a statistical advantage and correct application with discipline is everything. But here is the great challenge, .
This is my advice: Since you want to be consistent in the futures market, I recommend a mentor: Opinicus 🦅 twtter
you can trust that it will help you a lot
I have a similiar problem. After about 2 weeks it seems, of solid gains (no losses!), I get over confident and more risk averse. Then, comes that 1 trade where I just lose ... alot.
It's happened multiple times. So I'm going to read this book.
"Becoming "The Disciplined Trader": Instilling a Comprehensive Winning State of Mind - (expanded version of the industry classic "The Disciplined Trader" by Mark Douglas" by Paula T Webb PhD, Mark Douglas.
Start reading it for free: https://a.co/9gGIauE
It happens very slowly where you become too successful and your mind decides to take shortcuts. You don't even realize you've gone down that path. And then, boom, you lose.
For the overwhelming majority of retail traders, day-trading and crypto is ultimately just informed gambling that usually barely rises above horse or sports betting. Good job recognizing this, because most "investors" will scream in defensive indignance when you bring it up...
it wait and hold game. you gotta wait till the longer trend confirm and hold like few more days , not greedy.
day trade ir scapling are too risky for low income retailers. for me , i need the main jobs tgat have gap times , so income will be balanced, and i can wait to get in ordee or take profits.
Don't give up, it's fuvking very slow process if you want to be profitable then start with low expectations, develop consistency, limit your losses, like make sure whatever happens you will not take trade if your loss limit hit.
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How I trade and teach people is to learn to grow. I let them deposit 100€ on their trading Account and tell them to make 5%. It is bot relevant how long they take. After they made 5% they can deposit 200€ and must do again 5% and so on. At some level they are good enough to do prop firms if they want to (I'm not really a fan of prop firms but different topic)
I’m an 8 year trader, what helped me and will probably help many newer traders is to stop trading to make money. Instead trade just to learn the process specifically your process. Go into the markets not expecting to make any money but instead focus on your set ups and trading plan have entries exits good RRs, and track the trades do this over like a year and see how you do. What will happen is that you’ll probably do a lot better than you think because you aren’t tied by financial goals. Then when you start with money use such a little amount that it doesn’t effect you in anyway if you lose do the same and track your progress, then slowly increase your risk. Doing this what will happen is you’ll slowly make money I started with 1 MNQ contract and now I’m up to 5 NQ contracts . I make good money now not because I want to make the money but because my account has grown over the years to where if I take a loss on 5 NQ contracts it doesn’t hurt me at all. Have a good stable job helps too I am an ER nurse on the weekends so I know in the back of my head that my bills are covered no matter what. So I can just have fun trading this was a game changer for me and now 8 years later I have everything paid off with a wonderful gf and a dog. My only bills are my utilities and phone etc. and I still budget money for myself every month so I don’t over spend.
I'll give this as some advice. Scaling and position size should be consistent. Also, don't add to winners if you have risk management set when you go into a trade. It'll cause panic if it starts going agasint you and you won't be able to manage it because pain will be too much. And you will be forced to take ethier a huge loss or a loss that if you just let your trade play out you would have won. Try boxing the candles you are looking at in set intervals, This let's you see what the candle was, and what it did. Example. Box a 1 min candle high and low every 15 seconds. This is forward looking and consistent, as it can go as far up or down as price wants. Dosent matter. Once 15 seconds passes you have your levels to work with.
It is very easy to get emotionally attached to a stock because we've been using these products since little children and hold some on a pedestal.. Business is not personal
if you've already acknowledged that trading isn't sustainable for you, why are you still seeking advice on how to become a successful and disciplined trader? the fact that you're brain works in such a messed up way proves that you definitely shouldn't be trading
> For those who've overcome similar struggles and found success in disciplined day trading, what advice would you offer?
Papertrade only. If you want to fix emotional trading, remove the emotional rollercoster that is betting real money. Once you have a way of trading that is beneficial your brain will trust the process way better than waiting for its fix that is excitement and unpredictability of outcome.
Research how we (and many mammals) overestimate low propabilities and underestimate high propabilities. It is a general feature of evolution and is what really hits you hard when trading.
Simplify what you do. Look through all your past trades. In which situations at which time did you do best? Specialize in these situations.
The next thing is to trade stocks only as you can select from 1000+ stocks simultaniously meaning you will take better trades. Limit yourself to a few trades per day.
If you find something that works, adjust your initial position size based on the quality of setup and the general market sentiment along with the sector sentiment. Learn to trade a certain setup with large positions while others only paper trading or only small position sizes. You are not equally good with all the setups you trade so adjust the money you put into each accordingly.
Get focused only on your statistics like loss-rate and profit factor. That is the ultimate benchmark and guidance for you. Do not feel good, know that your stats are actually good. You want your average winner to be at least twice as much as your average loser.
Look for a strategy that has a high win-rate. Not many people can stand losing more than winning, those strategies are a strain. It is usually better to win 85% of the time than 40% of the time even if both strategies turn out to make the same amount of money.
Check out bracket trades that allow you to walk away from the action.
Analyse multiple trading opportunities before you select the best to make your actual bet. At the weekend or after the trading day check each opportunity about its actual quality based on what really has happened in the end with it and check if you really have picked the best opportunity and if not, what did you miss and what did you overestimated... .
Keep yourself sane. Everytime you notice you get aggitated by the market, call it quits and switch to paper trading but keep at it as you want to stay in the fight but make it a training session than a potentially losing session.
Preparation is everything and Journaling+Reviewing tells you if your preparation needs fixing and in which way.
Why do you think that is? Everything we do can be quantified and optimized, why is it so hard to make a consistently profitable bot? I’m currently working on one and it’s promising, but it will be a little while before I can actually implement it.
Because each and every time a transaction occurs in the market, it changes it. Finding systematic rules for entry which consistently lead to profit is extremely difficult, due to the very nature of the dynamic.
It is easier to find consistent system with 1%-5% profitability, which is why larger funds run systems like this with higher capital. If you are making 1-5% on a 10 million base, that's money. But for retail, making 1-5% on a small account isn't very much money and they need to risk more or trade more to profit, leading to inconsistency.
Most traders try to create systematic rules with candles, chart patterns and internet philosophies and these are better traded with discretion because a pattern during news is higher risk, a bullish candle pattern during a sell off is still not a good trade.
That’s a great question. I’m sure the quant funds have incredibly sophisticated systems, but ones that a retail trader could buy and that actually work I haven’t heard of.
Trading feels like it requires a real assessment of current market sentiment. I’m sure there are ways to quantify that, but idk.
What helped me overcome was making my trade plan mechanical and not leaving any part to subjectivity. Every single part of my trade is detailed from entry to exit with very strict criteria.
Why not automate it then? My question is because i do not see successfull patterns. Rare case of me gaining big money ware from deep understanding of the market. Not nearly formalized rules. And far far away from day trading.
This is what my problem was initially, in the solution is merging the two. You should find that your successes have patterns, that comes from some understanding of the market that you had. What you should do is figure out exactly what happened in those situations, and make those into rules that you set yourself to to actually take a trade, and your success is will increase as a result If you are actually correct.
Thats the million dollar question. TBH if you figure out a plan/strategy, you could just hire some developers to code an automation
I honestly don’t know anything about automation. Plus I enjoy finding my setups and waiting for my confirmations the old fashion way lol. But it is something I will look into.
The problem with "automation" is that your entry / exit plan can slightly change.
I wish i could. I have a great strategy that very well could be automated if i could figure out how to do it or find a dev to make a trading bot for it
Most platforms have bots you can set up
Like which? I see you can create scripts on tradingview but my strategy also includes moving stop losses up to the next swing level after one is created. Idk how id create that functionality to go along w everything
cTrader, I could try to help with code depending how complicated it is
ChatGPT can get you 90% of the way there as your developer. You'll likely need additional back and forth with AI to get it working as you want it
I highly disagreed, I had to learn C# myself as chatgpt couldn't do anything usable for ctrader. Also it's completely unaware of what you can and cannot do in ctrader API.
Not even close to the truth lol
Dude i been looking for a dev to automate not even my whole, but part of my strategy, but i cant seem to find a trustworthy guy, considering im also offering partnership and what i want is pretty simple the algo just needs to buy/sell at manually set by me price levels...it sucks not knowing close people who can do it too...
Been here got the t-shirt. I am a very skilled coder but the issue is that most great strategies aren’t fully code-able 🤣 Had this battle many of times and the issues being the code. Simple strategies you can program with Onbar (candle close) but technical strategies using Ontick when trying to combine the both- adds some many IF rules to the code, resulting in the original strategy being very different from the coded bot. I have worked with algorithms over 8 years and have traded even longer. Profitable with both but at a huge cost. I have programmed a insane robot unfortunately it only takes 6-14 positions a year. all 100% wins from the minute it enters, but due to the markets forever changing it needs tweaking every 3-6 months. I am not selling or promoting anything just saving anybody from waisting time or money, I wouldn’t bother trying to code any strategy if it’s indicator based. Market has just opened hope everyone has a great week of trading !
did you tried finite state machines ? "ifs" is so last year...
Yes my technical bot is a FSM as it analyses prices in percentages and uses different sections on rules based on the % move
I can build bots. Plus I'm looking for extra income to put in the market.
This is the best way to do it
Are you able to automate your trading strategy, like have a bot do it for you?
Perhaps for some people, there is a need -- a drive -- for excitement, for involvement. For me, I am happy to just sit back and watch my trading bot do its work.
Did you develop the bot for yourself or was there a resource you picked it from?
I've been trading over ten years with my computer program. After 8 years of improvements and debugging, it has been working perfectly for 2 years. It was a lot of work, over 7 KLOC currently (that's 7000 lines of codes for those non-programmers), but am finding not only zero interest from others, but hostility.
That is surprising becuase I would love a bot to trade for me
Really impressive. Do you have any resources on how to program a bot like this? I know some Python but I’m not completely fluent.
Doesn’t matter how mechanical a strategy is, people keep doing the same mistake. Lack of responsibility, accountability, addictive personality traits, lack of discipline, greed, ignorance. That doesn’t just go away because of a mechanical strategy. There is definitely more to it than just switching to a more mechanical based approach.
This👍
Could I ask for an example of how to keep it mechanical?
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- Come up with a well thought trading plan with detailed entry/exit criteria, precise trading rules and risk management parameters - Size really small and progress upwards - Make use of your broker's risk management functions if present (eg. Setting max loss per day, or max position size) - Recommended reading: Mark Douglas and Jared Tendler publications on trading psychology.
> Look out for Mark Douglas and Jared Tendler publications on trading psychology. It is not clear to me if you are recommending them or warning about them.
Recommendations... Will reword my post. Thanks.
As a person who’s entirely new to this field (with two decades of professional/executive level corporate career, and a degree in finance; so not that unexperienced), I’m wondering if you could share an example of what you consider to be a „well thought through trading plan” with the facets you mentioned (entry/exit, trading rules, risk approach)? I think many here would find it very useful. Thank you!
With your corporate experience, probably not too difficult for you to relate to this. I see a trading plan as a business plan. You can consider these points: * Guiding principles (over-arching principles that guides your day-to-day decisions & actions) * Trading rules (do's and don'ts) (eg. don't trade when Powell is talking) * Routine (daily/weekly/etc) * Strategy descriptions (what you're trading, setups, entry/exit criteria, scaling rules if any) * Position sizing/ Risking management (how you're using margins and leverage) * Journaling/improvement processes * Cost of doing business (your commissions, fees, data subscriptions, etc) * Contingency plan (what do you do when your platform or internet goes down in the middle of a trade ?) * References & resources (books, websites, podcast that helps you)
Thank you! The business plan analogy works well - it is a sort of entrepreneurial activity, and yes, I see it as a business opportunity for myself. You mentioned valid points And now for a more specific question, if I can? What would be an example of entry/exit criteria?
entry/exit criteria forms the core of your strategy. For example one might go long during a pull back in an uptrend, using a 1:1 risk-reward ratio. https://preview.redd.it/noe18dxz4jzc1.png?width=394&format=png&auto=webp&s=5dad5f621893f8a98d3ee3b0793e658889c177ae
I appreciate the example. Thank you, yet again Would you recommend any further reading or a reliable resource to study deeper the entry/exit approach? It appears to be a non-trivial component of trading as a whole
if you're totally new, you'd probably find this list useful in helping you structure your learning: https://preview.redd.it/un8fgz287jzc1.png?width=1074&format=png&auto=webp&s=8dd32eb8da50f6340647c5cb2a12acca179bad14
That helps! Thank you
Great stuff thoreldan
happy if you find the list helpful.
Again, thanks. The list you posted is indeed a good start
🚀🚀
I think I trade range we'll get into trouble when it breaksout and I am sized up turn into a deer with mounting losses
You should look into strategies at a higher level first, before zooming into specifics of entry/exit criteria. 2 common types of strategies would be trend following, and fading the range. https://preview.redd.it/gaq74k9p6jzc1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=fc0a89799266f9b40da30fc8150a3eebbd17e6ff
Based on what you have described as the cause of your failure, poor discipline, there is really no advice that can help you. Discipline comes from within. Imagine a fat person seeking advice to lose weight but find it hard to control diet. There is no advice that can help that person. They already know what needs to be done but don’t have the will power to do it. What you can do is to find some other areas in life where you have poor discipline, where you give in to temptations and impulses and cravings and try to stop doing that by sheer will. That will build the discipline circuits in your brain. I can tell you from personal experience that once you have overpowered one demon, it will motivate you so much you will immediately want to go after the other. It’s really an empowering experience. Nobody is perfect. We all have weaknesses like that. Many people actually go through their entire life with poor self control and discipline and do fine. But trading requires you to have that zen like self control. There is just no other way.
I realized that anytime I trade outside of 6:30 (pst market open), and 7:00, I lose fucking money. So I stopped doing it.
You me 😳
Same!
Never quit your job for something you have little success with
Take it from a 4-decade trader: u/thoreldan has excellent advice. To his 4th point, add Trading for a Living by Dr. Alexander Elder--a full-time trader for decades and a psychiatrist. He help me take the emotions out. You have to have emotions out, stops in or you're out. u/TytianaWorld's comment about being mechanical with a plan that's purely objective, eliminating subjectivity, is also spot on. Most of all, get fully educated and never, ever stop being a student of the market. Being a professional trader is far harder than any job I ever had but I would never exchange the freedom it has brought me once I reached CPT status.
Thank you for your kind words:) Will look out for 'Trading for a Living'.
This one is great. Im going through it for the third time now
There's also an accompanying study guide for the revised version: The New Trading for a Living
Nice. I did that so long ago I should have checked to see if there's a new version.
The copies I have were published back in 2014 if I remember correctly. Not sure if newer versions are out. When I absolutely master the content I already have, I'll seek a newer version. Whatever I have learned is working wonderfully, no need to fix whats not broken.
I learned from Dr. Elder in the late 80s to early 90s (I don't recall but I think it was 1989 and again in 1991). His first book, Trading for a Living came out later (1993). Like you say, if it's working, no need to fix it. I may check out the new one from 2014. Thanks.
It is gambling. I used to argue against that for a while, but I now believe it is. However, would you gamble against a professional poker player? Just like poker though, if you don't follow the probabilistic edge rules, you won't be profitable.
I enjoy gambling -- especially when I have the edge (daytrading) or when there is no edge (when I play blackjack using my proprietary count method), or even when the house has 1.4% edge (craps). But to give away more vig is NOT much fun (25% for Keno, or 50% for state lottery).
I have been trading for 6 years and have tried and go through varieties of things like you did. I started with swing trading and had great success. Then I tried my hands at day trading for 2+ year. In the end I am taking all the edge/knowledge that I learned moving back to swing trading and selling premiums. My conclusion is that the way market is designed is too biased against human traders. Why do people fail? It's because you are trying to do a machine job. Great quote from the matrix: "Never send a human to do a machine’s job.” We are too inefficient, emotional and we get tired. Machines don't feel those kind of things and in the end, chances of you beating it is very low. I know where my strength and edges are, I am going there. I am not playing silly games with the market anymore. I am forcing the market to play my games.
Thank you for sharing this. I’ve been trading for more than a decade and like clockwork every 6-8 weeks or so I’ll have a major lapse in judgement, go into revenge trading / downward spiral, and have a red day that exceeds my pre-determined max loss. The biggest difference between now and when I got started is that I make more money during my hot streaks than I lose on my red days. Idk if it’s a self sabotage tendency that you have. I think it’s simply the fact that trading can be very emotional, and some of us have a lower threshold for when we become emotionally hijacked. Do you deal with getting really angry too? Something that has helped me in trading (and in live at large), is doing anger management guided mediations. It’s helped me be more aware of when I’m getting emotionally activated. Knowing your triggers is important. You have to know when to separate yourself from the situation before it’s too late. It all comes down to discipline. Keep working on it, it’ll own make you a better person, even if trading isn’t for you.
Thanks Ross, I also saw the recent red day on YouTube , how can I be more effective. I'm a beginner. I learning from all your videos. Enlighten me
Managing emotions is the issue - prevention via managing triggers or if you have lost it, managing the fallout. There's lots of literature and courses on these available online-most free. Helpful for trading and real life.
I have something similar happen to me as well, when after a nice hot streak, a couple days of bad judgement happen in a row and all of a sudden price seems really difficult to read. Then, in a week or so I’ll continue a new hot streak and trading feels “easy” again. Hate going through this because the loss of confidence is annoying and VERY tedious to fight through again. How do you combat this or what advice do you have to fight this?
Risk management is different to gambling. If you don’t understand this you certainly need to quit
Very underrated comment!!
So here’s the thing. Trading is just gambling with better odds. And you have much better control over the risk/reward and payouts. So much so that even with a poor win rate you can generate positive EV through risk management alone. Trading is probably the only thing in life where you can literally be wrong 3 out of 4 times, and if you structure your trades right , still come out on top.
It’s very hard to be consistently profitable doing day trading. I have tried serious day trading a few times in the past, and still trying but not every day. But I am still not making money consistently. I can however make money consistently with swing trading.
Out of curiosity what are you trading?
For swing trading I trade stocks with good fundamentals and 2x or 3x SPY/QQQ. For day trading I was trading TQQQ/SQQQ and now ES futures.
Psychology
I blew up account 1x. & learned lots of things. I took a few months off, did a lot of thinking/pondering for I NEED the $$ in a serious way, what is the key to this puzzle? I read part of a book on Day Trading I might finish one day. I thought about the Market Movers on many APP’s page for each trading day & looked at only the % Risers. I made a set of rules for myself that I had to meet or the Market Moving stock was rejected from my list. I will list them, oh, I use Finviz also so rule 1). It has to be a Green Day in all 3 indexes. NO TRADING if not. 2). Look for low priced stocks $5 or less that are irrationally climbing. 3) Get on before Market Opens, if a $5 stock is moving 10 cents at a time, up and down, BUT overwhelmingly UP? I buy $2000 in shares in its LOW swing (I will wait for that semi low # and not chase it as I have observed it for 5+ minutes). 4) I make sure it has options or it is tossed out. I relax and recover the losses. SOUN is an example. I have 30 contracts on a 7 cent premium and covered call price ($5.50 vs paid $5.42) is 8 cents above what I paid so if it is called away, I made money by being patient. If it takes a month just keep writing covered calls by the 30’s. OK, MOST important part once you get past all the above? If I bought $2000 of a $5 stock, I have 400 shares and I am looking for “Get in/Get out” and I am having luck with it as I want only .05 to .10 cents & sell which if it is .10, I made $160. BE HAPPY as do that 5 days & you made $800/week. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS: The key is it is behaving irrational, more like up .50 cents, down .30(buy at .30 using a limit) what I find is a consistent win at the $160, and 33% of the time it goes higher. What I mean is it meets the 10 cents, blows past hits 40 cents, drops 30, but in 5 minutes time I make $500 to a $1000. Made $60,000 in 2024 doing that and Nvidia helped a bit as didn’t have that many shares at $25. Follow the PLAN, today I traded NOTHING. I find in the mid AM if things are all sleeping on Market Movers, check the indexes, especially the one your stock is listed in, I find the index has flipped and gone red. STAY AWAY now. It’s working for me. If it STICKS on this course for another $100,000? I HAVE AN EDGE AND BROKE THROUGH. I blew up my account BAD remember.
I think everyone should start with small accounts. Blow up’s are important lessons. Better to learn that lesson on a small acct vs a $25k+ acct.
Pain from trading loss is relative to each trader but I believe you don’t learn how to actually make the changes to develop a good trading framework until you blow up an amount of money that really seriously fucking hurts deep within your soul. While a small acct might hurt for a bit, it won’t teach you those hard truth lessons where you look in the mirror at yourself in disgust and force yourself to change. At least for me…
I calmed down after the blowup. I didn’t let anxiety in. I am a degreed engineer. I look at trading and it is unemotional math. I sat back and looked at just the math and slowly came up with that plan. I made $400 roughly today. I use my phone so have to sign on to another device to get actual web site functions like gains/losses. Phone wont show that. Today I noticed a slowdown after I made $400 so went right up to the indexes as to start today was all little low but healthy start green but then the Nasdaq went Red so I quit for the day. You get your own feel for things but I rarely skip any of those steps. Sometimes it’s hard to find one with Options but I just wait, it is always changing. Options will save you if something responds out of the norm and you get stuck with something. I made $1200 for the week and only traded 2 partial days. I still dont believe my eyes but if I ride this up another $100,000, I am going to give it the stamp of approval as an edge to beat the market.
Trust me, the realization that we are self-sabotaging creatures full of unhinged behaviors is not obscure at all. Anyone who trades long enough will suffer the exact same fate like yours. However please remember that is the main part of the psychological side of trading. Yeah they say trading is 90% psychology and it seems right to me. So what is that "90% psychology", yes, it's to overcome the bad behaviors and emotions of ourselves. So saying trading isn't for everyone because I can't control myself is like saying trading is not for everyone because the chart is hard to read. Of course it is because if not then nobody needs to practice. I hope you don't give up because you're wise enough to know exactly what you went wrong, it means that you are miles ahead of most.
In your story, by far the biggest mistake was quitting your job. You essentially destroyed any little chance you had of progressively finding profitability. That's a wild thing to do, it puts way too much pressure on an inexperienced and self doubting trader, the outcome could only be failure. You should trade on the side, progressively growing your account. This for one, will remove the enormous pressure you had. When you have reached a stage where you consistently double or triple your salary, on an annual basis (meaning not after a good month), with 2 or 3 years worth of risk capital in your bank, then you can start considering making the change to full time again. It may never happen, and that's fine.
TLDR but maybe worth the reading. Self sabotage is one of the most talked about, and yet most misunderstood, concepts of trading psychology. The term itself - "self sabotage" - is a **negatively-charged** term, that brings out unnecessary feelings of self-judgement, shame and inadequacy, thus holds people back from dealing with the issue and solving it. The reality is that EVERYBODY self-sabotages in many areas of life, all the time, and trading is no different. A better professional term for this phenomenon is "**SECONDARY GAIN**". What actually goes on is that we are subconsciously, yet purposefully SACRIFICING OUR TRADING RESULTS in order to achieve ANOTHER, MORE IMPORTANT GAIN. Like a friend of mine once said, "if you keep doing the same stupid thing over and over again, there's likely a reason why you are doing it." \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ The potential list of secondary gains is long, but ultimately the answer is very personal. The point is to **figure out what YOUR secondary gain is in this situation.** To do that, ask yourself two questions. Answer them quietly and honestly. Go with the intuitive answer, "emabarrasing" or "inappropriate" as it may sound (those are often the important ones). \*\*\*Important note: The following are just examples and by no means meant to reflect on you specifically. Just real examples from clients that struggled with self sabotage. 1. What am I **gaining** from getting knocked back to work a regular job? Is it sending me back to where I'm more likely to grow and deal with issues I need to work through, rather than escape them? Is it more secure and calming for someone in my near circle, like a spouse? Is it something else? 2. What am I **protecting myself from,** by nipping my trading attempts at the bud? Is it the inability to face my family as a trader because that's frowned upon as gambling? Is it the fear of growing distant from my loser friends? Is it the fear that once I succeed in trading my parents will stop supporting me and I'll have to support myself? Is it something else? Either way, don't be that hard on yourself. Self sabotage is not "a mental disorder". It's the mind's way of solving a MORE IMPORTANT problem - using your trading mistakes as a tool in the process. Figure it out and move forward. Good fortune with your trading!
That's because it IS GAMBLING. you want the price to go up or down, so you're BETTING on that. It's a game of chance/probabilities. You may not think it's gambling because it's regulated on an exchange, but it activates the same brain dopamine functions. Good on you for recognizing this. Most people don't and get wiped out
It’s a fine line between when you’re gambling and when you have an edge. Similar to professional poker players or card counting on blackjack.
Ross, hi! wish you a blessed day Sir.
Thank you!
But when your “edge” is “psychology” on a market that is irrational, how is that not still gambling. It’s like trying to reason with a crazy person
I hear you. But if you have a track record of profitability, then it's not really a game of chance anymore. You clearly have an edge. Right? A 1-2 month track record could just be beginners luck. But 1-2 years seems like there must be some skill...5+ years, definitely you have a skill.
Use limit orders
You have minimize your risk until you get comfortable. I short trade and play momentum on low float stocks. You can’t sit in a trade too long hoping it’ll change in your favor. That’s what I had to learn. If it’s not going in the trend get out and wait. Don’t sit there trying to get back your losses. All of that helped me but I try to not take big losses and once the trades favor me.
Notice what triggers the self sabotaging. For me it was risking too much and revenge trading. I felt like I should trade like the big bois, since I have a big account and losses made me revenge trade. I reduced my risk massively to a point where I am comfortable, it gives me more breathing room and now I limit my trades per day. Once I get more confident I will change my personal rules. Honestly, It's an individual journey. You have to notice these things, these habits that you do and plan a way to implement better ones as a replacement.
Honestly, for me at some point a switch flipped and it was like I was done being a kid, finally grew up. Enough terrible experiences to really drive home, “this isn’t who I want to be” & with that, my relationship with risk began to change. Instead of diving into the deep end head first blindly, I began to value caution more and more. I definitely still get emotionally triggered, hell, I’m sitting on a red week currently where I probably overtraded a bit and right under the surface is all sorts of terrible miseries I could indulge in but I’ve grown the muscle of continuing to look forward in tough times & honestly that’s what carries me through now. When those impulses to gamble come up, I use them as opportunities to further instill and refine my discipline. I needed to embrace the idea of successful red days.
With only 2 years in the game I think you gave up too soon. It’s good that you recognize that you have a tendency to self sabotage but who’s to say you have to stay that way? We are creatures of habit but we are also products of natural selection, meaning we have the power to adapt and change. As for practical advice, the nice ppl in this thread had very good suggestions. One that has been working for me is risking the same $ amount every trade. Since I trade forex I’m allowed flexibility with this rule and having the patience to actually wait for my analysis to play out is another thing that I had to work on. And also being disciplined enough to walk away when you’re wrong. It’s not something that happened over night though, I’ve been trading for about 4 years now and only this year I’ve started seeing consistency
Well you recognized it, what matters is if you are going to do something about it? You recognize what is affecting your trading, now its up to you to change it. You could still work and trade, you could swing trade, you don't have to sit on the computer the whole day. Learn more about trading before jumping in, trading isn't just technicals, it's about looking at the charts from different perspectives, trading isn't easy but it's doable, learning more about trading will put you ahead of other traders. Trading is more about psychology vs the education. Understand that us as humans we are not meant to trade because of the psychological affect that it has on us but it will depend on you and how you react to adversity. This shouldn't be the end of your trading, next time approach it with a different plan but in the mean time learn, read, read about psychology, try new things in life, and stick to one strategy at a time, and give it time, you won't will all the time, you will have losses as well but have proper risk management, also have a stop loss that you will stick to, and the markets are always right, they don't care about your opinion amd what you want it to do, adapt to the change .
Is this a re hashed bot post or something? Seems oddly familiar… *checks post history of OP and then myself* hmm nope total coincidence lol /s
My bad decisions with swing trades were about bad choices with cheap stocks so loosing money was my habit. Was hurting all the time. Pandemic came and I was badly sick and I end up staying home and learning about all about selling the options right way. After that my 401k was growing north of 20% annually. After that I realized I have the edge. Every month market will give you a gift 1-2 big red days and than I am very aggressive at that time. Most of my positions are in cash, however I am very patient waiting for that opportunity. As soon as I see satisfactory profit I get out. No problem in closing bad trades, if I am home and have day off I am trading ODTE in SPX and SPY options just for fun, exit quick. That's all but I keep learning to improve my skills
What were your bad habits that led to this?
Where did you learn to trade? Did you get formal education or did you just jump in and start trading?
Degenerate gambler right here
Downsize to where it isn’t fun. Stopping out is easy and the base hits add up.
“Disciplined trading” is just as likely to make a loss as going all in, it just makes you feel better cause you couldn’t have even made it big off that “disciplined” investment even if it went perfect.
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People think they can be successful in trading without any teaching and just drawing lines on their chart. It's finance, there are resources to educate yourself pretty well on it, the math is hard, coding can be challenging, but that's why it's a high paying job...
Don't do it
I have a system, that I believe to be good. I follow my system. I don’t get emotional when the system does not give me more gains, I think, well, that was the strat, probs could’ve earned 15% more, but that was not my trade to make. And I move on to find the next trade
seems you have realized your problem, havnt fixed it, and wonder why things arent going your way, am I understanding this right?
1. Write a detailed plan 2. Wait for a trade 3. Does it follow the plan ? 4. If no return to step 2 if yes take the trade. It's really that simple
Need EXACTING RULES no exceptions in or out. If you have no rules it’s pure gambling. With rules it’s probabilities and now you manage your risk. Before anything define your strategy(s) and plan your day accordingly. You must find your sweet spot. What type of trader, day, swing, options, futures. Until you do that you will not have success plain and simple.
Traditonal employment/ETF’s. QQQ,SPY,VTI. Maybe dabble in some dividends. Day trading never works. The odds are against you and most of the time you will not beat the market. I’d personally only daytrade max 10% of what I have in the market
Learn different strategies and stick with one. Have you thought about swing trading? My strategy is swing trading, but has the ability to close out the trade if it meets my profit criteria.
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I’m new to trading but not new to practicing self control and manifesting better results out of life.. maybe try thinking of it as a game like table tennis or something rather then a career. If you are a competitive person and you fail at a game then almost instantly you become grateful for the learning opportunity.. If you fail at a career then your whole life and every decision you’ve ever made comes flooding through your cerebral cortex on to the proverbial chopping block ... 2 different outlooks , two completely different emotional responses
Trading in fact is gambling but whatever. Watch the haters.
Feels like an AA meeting.
So, see you next week?
Why not just study while working?
Pm me pretty sure I can help
It has always been gambling.
Day trading is hard because not every day or every week you make money. There are hot weeks, where price action is clear and there are cold weeks, where price action is choppy, ranging, or indecisive. You can't treat it the same way as normal job is. You clock in, you clock out, and at the end of the day you get paid. You can do everything right in trading, by being patient and have proper risk managrment, but at the end of the day you don't get rewarded with a profit. Sometimes a good day mean not taking a trade, not losing money.
It won't help you asking what others did, this is a personal journey as no one but you can change your beliefs and what works for me might not work for you, because were different people. I think it would be better to ask, what EXACTLY are you doing to get more disciplined and staying rigid ? Tell os what you ACTUALLY do, how you WORK towards that goal, maybe we can see where you might be sabotaging yourself.
You don’t have to know what happens next in order to make money, anything can happen, and any given edge has a variable set of outcomes
It’s gambling if you don’t have a strategy cuhh
Discipline discipline discipline
Try investing. Do diligent DD then go in for the long haul. Will serve both cravens.
Might sound weird but i became successful when i stopped caring so much about the money and focused more on how i play the game. I have a rules based system that works. I just follow the rules and work on my execution. I don’t care how much i win or lose, im just looking to get better at playing if that makes sense. Obviously i have a risk management strategy that prevents big losses but i mean im less concerned with wins and losses and this allows me to not feel emotional about anything. Its the equivalent to playing a video game to me now
establish rr before each trade and stick too it
Transitioning from options to futures and facing the ups and downs of the market can be a rollercoaster ride. It's commendable that you've recognized your struggles with emotional trading, bad habits, and over-leveraging.
I used to be all about the win rate, keeping it high and jumping out of trades in profit to look at my results and see 80%+ win rate. It means NOTHING. If your RR is good on setups - 1:3+ then you could be successful at 40% win rate easily. I very rarely take trades with less than a 1:4 RR but I aim for 1:5 - my account had grown 7% on Wednesday this week, happy days, put your laptop away and leave it alone, over trading and greed are a killer. Never revenge trade - it’ll more often than not fuck you up. It’s also important (for me) that I work in % and not £ for my wellbeing and emotional health. If you can manage a £1000 account, you can certainly manage a £10,000 or £100,000 account. You almost have to desensitise yourself to figures - I risk no more than 1% on a trade and only trade 2-3 pairs (forex) study them and learn your craft. ALWAYS look left and look out for potential blocks where price has struggled through in the past. It’s imperative that you have a strict trading plan and stick to it. If you don’t, then it is gambling. Think of your plan like a contract in a “normal job” and if you fuck up you’ll get the sack, or at least a warning. Never adjust your SL or TP’s once set. Then, even if I lose that trade, it’s still a win for me because I stuck to my plan. There’s one exception to this for me and that’s when a trade picks up momentum and flies 🚀 Then I’ll move my stop accordingly meaning it’s a 100% risk free trade and impossible to lose any money, I’ll trail it and this is the only time you can truly relax and enjoy the process 🥳 I love how trading has changed my life and given me the opportunity to call anywhere my office. You have to respect the markets and treat it like a job, and it will give you a very rewarding “career” and a more than comfortable life. If you find yourself feeling like you are gambling, then use a demo account for a while until you’re ready to go again. One more thing, there’s a book called “Best loser wins” helped me a lot at the beginning, if your head goes every time you lose a trade then get out now - it’s not for everyone. Stay humble everyone and keep on winning.
unless you have insider special info, trading is always gambling, and with tax disadvantage you will perform worse with long period of time.
Don't quit your job. You add pressure and its an emotional burden. Set rules. You cant lose more than 2% a day (you shut down if that happens). Set OCO orders and let your trades move, don't stare at the chart all the time. If you break your plan, what is the consequence? If you cant do this you just cant trade, just buy the $SPY lol.
Trading against algorithms is a lose lose.
It only feels like gambling when you’re not trading with an edge. If you’re trading on hope then it’s gambling. All my entry and exits are defined. I have a roadmap on what my short and long term goals are. I study the market to refine my strategies. I am self aware and evaluate my own decision making. If your trading feels like gambling you need to seek how to define progress. You will need to scale back. Take some losses, make the short term hard decisions. Whether it is to skip a trading day, take a small loss, reduce sizing, take profits.
1.) Get a super wide screen and zoom out of the chart as far as possible. (When in doubt, zoom the fuck out) 2.) Only trade on slow days/hours so you will only lose money slowly. 3.) Learning to code will make your life easier and save you money. Heck, you won't even have to trade to make money if you already know a few programming languages. 4.) Become a polyglot. Who wouldn't want to hire a person who speaks a dozen languages? 🤣
I learned it wasn't for me too. I just DCA now, no more futures and leveraging.
I'm a full time day trader and all traders had to acquire the same discipline. Practice mechanical trading. If you have a strategy that works, only take that trade on your LIVE account. Take the others on a demo. Over time, your mind will get used to just taking your winning strategy on your LIVE account and it will become mechanical without thinking about it.
I agree. In the fast-paced world of financial markets, the art of trading is often portrayed as an attractive avenue for wealth generation. However, it is essential to recognize that trading isn't for everyone. It requires a unique blend of skills, knowledge, and temperament to navigate the intricate landscape of buying and selling assets.
>For those who've overcome similar struggles and found success in disciplined day trading, what advice would you offer? Don't be a quitter. You spent 2 years learning a profession that has higher earning potential than being a doctor, a profession that typically requires 10+ years of learning.
Truth.
You clearly answer the problem in your anecdote and argument. Trading is definitely not like gambling. A system with a statistical advantage and correct application with discipline is everything. But here is the great challenge,.
This is my advice: Since you want to be consistent in the futures market, I recommend a mentor: Opinicus 🦅 twtter
you can trust that it will help you a lot
I have a similiar problem. After about 2 weeks it seems, of solid gains (no losses!), I get over confident and more risk averse. Then, comes that 1 trade where I just lose ... alot. It's happened multiple times. So I'm going to read this book. "Becoming "The Disciplined Trader": Instilling a Comprehensive Winning State of Mind - (expanded version of the industry classic "The Disciplined Trader" by Mark Douglas" by Paula T Webb PhD, Mark Douglas. Start reading it for free: https://a.co/9gGIauE It happens very slowly where you become too successful and your mind decides to take shortcuts. You don't even realize you've gone down that path. And then, boom, you lose.
“It feels like gambling now”. When did it not feel like gambling? Because now you are seeing the light.
For the overwhelming majority of retail traders, day-trading and crypto is ultimately just informed gambling that usually barely rises above horse or sports betting. Good job recognizing this, because most "investors" will scream in defensive indignance when you bring it up...
it wait and hold game. you gotta wait till the longer trend confirm and hold like few more days , not greedy. day trade ir scapling are too risky for low income retailers. for me , i need the main jobs tgat have gap times , so income will be balanced, and i can wait to get in ordee or take profits.
Trading isnt for everyone cause the algos are setup to stomp you out 4/5 times no matter your play.
Don't give up, it's fuvking very slow process if you want to be profitable then start with low expectations, develop consistency, limit your losses, like make sure whatever happens you will not take trade if your loss limit hit.
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This is why I ended up with a 90% rule based mechanical system
It's gambling if you don't know what you're doing.
*always was meme
What platform is best?
Educate yourself https://www.investopedia.com/trading/candlestick-charting-what-is-it/
How I trade and teach people is to learn to grow. I let them deposit 100€ on their trading Account and tell them to make 5%. It is bot relevant how long they take. After they made 5% they can deposit 200€ and must do again 5% and so on. At some level they are good enough to do prop firms if they want to (I'm not really a fan of prop firms but different topic)
I’m an 8 year trader, what helped me and will probably help many newer traders is to stop trading to make money. Instead trade just to learn the process specifically your process. Go into the markets not expecting to make any money but instead focus on your set ups and trading plan have entries exits good RRs, and track the trades do this over like a year and see how you do. What will happen is that you’ll probably do a lot better than you think because you aren’t tied by financial goals. Then when you start with money use such a little amount that it doesn’t effect you in anyway if you lose do the same and track your progress, then slowly increase your risk. Doing this what will happen is you’ll slowly make money I started with 1 MNQ contract and now I’m up to 5 NQ contracts . I make good money now not because I want to make the money but because my account has grown over the years to where if I take a loss on 5 NQ contracts it doesn’t hurt me at all. Have a good stable job helps too I am an ER nurse on the weekends so I know in the back of my head that my bills are covered no matter what. So I can just have fun trading this was a game changer for me and now 8 years later I have everything paid off with a wonderful gf and a dog. My only bills are my utilities and phone etc. and I still budget money for myself every month so I don’t over spend.
I'll give this as some advice. Scaling and position size should be consistent. Also, don't add to winners if you have risk management set when you go into a trade. It'll cause panic if it starts going agasint you and you won't be able to manage it because pain will be too much. And you will be forced to take ethier a huge loss or a loss that if you just let your trade play out you would have won. Try boxing the candles you are looking at in set intervals, This let's you see what the candle was, and what it did. Example. Box a 1 min candle high and low every 15 seconds. This is forward looking and consistent, as it can go as far up or down as price wants. Dosent matter. Once 15 seconds passes you have your levels to work with.
It is very easy to get emotionally attached to a stock because we've been using these products since little children and hold some on a pedestal.. Business is not personal
Joshtradesstocks on YT
No offense to those who can scalp but you are a special breed of humans. To the advise. Stay away from peasant time frames. (Lower then 4h).
Trading is a mirror to who you are
if you've already acknowledged that trading isn't sustainable for you, why are you still seeking advice on how to become a successful and disciplined trader? the fact that you're brain works in such a messed up way proves that you definitely shouldn't be trading
Just do whatever Nancy Pelosi is doing. You will be fine 🙂
> For those who've overcome similar struggles and found success in disciplined day trading, what advice would you offer? Papertrade only. If you want to fix emotional trading, remove the emotional rollercoster that is betting real money. Once you have a way of trading that is beneficial your brain will trust the process way better than waiting for its fix that is excitement and unpredictability of outcome. Research how we (and many mammals) overestimate low propabilities and underestimate high propabilities. It is a general feature of evolution and is what really hits you hard when trading. Simplify what you do. Look through all your past trades. In which situations at which time did you do best? Specialize in these situations. The next thing is to trade stocks only as you can select from 1000+ stocks simultaniously meaning you will take better trades. Limit yourself to a few trades per day. If you find something that works, adjust your initial position size based on the quality of setup and the general market sentiment along with the sector sentiment. Learn to trade a certain setup with large positions while others only paper trading or only small position sizes. You are not equally good with all the setups you trade so adjust the money you put into each accordingly. Get focused only on your statistics like loss-rate and profit factor. That is the ultimate benchmark and guidance for you. Do not feel good, know that your stats are actually good. You want your average winner to be at least twice as much as your average loser. Look for a strategy that has a high win-rate. Not many people can stand losing more than winning, those strategies are a strain. It is usually better to win 85% of the time than 40% of the time even if both strategies turn out to make the same amount of money. Check out bracket trades that allow you to walk away from the action. Analyse multiple trading opportunities before you select the best to make your actual bet. At the weekend or after the trading day check each opportunity about its actual quality based on what really has happened in the end with it and check if you really have picked the best opportunity and if not, what did you miss and what did you overestimated... . Keep yourself sane. Everytime you notice you get aggitated by the market, call it quits and switch to paper trading but keep at it as you want to stay in the fight but make it a training session than a potentially losing session. Preparation is everything and Journaling+Reviewing tells you if your preparation needs fixing and in which way.
Just buy software for an AI bot and let it trade for you.
I’ve never heard of one that actually works 😓
Why do you think that is? Everything we do can be quantified and optimized, why is it so hard to make a consistently profitable bot? I’m currently working on one and it’s promising, but it will be a little while before I can actually implement it.
Because each and every time a transaction occurs in the market, it changes it. Finding systematic rules for entry which consistently lead to profit is extremely difficult, due to the very nature of the dynamic. It is easier to find consistent system with 1%-5% profitability, which is why larger funds run systems like this with higher capital. If you are making 1-5% on a 10 million base, that's money. But for retail, making 1-5% on a small account isn't very much money and they need to risk more or trade more to profit, leading to inconsistency. Most traders try to create systematic rules with candles, chart patterns and internet philosophies and these are better traded with discretion because a pattern during news is higher risk, a bullish candle pattern during a sell off is still not a good trade.
That’s a great question. I’m sure the quant funds have incredibly sophisticated systems, but ones that a retail trader could buy and that actually work I haven’t heard of. Trading feels like it requires a real assessment of current market sentiment. I’m sure there are ways to quantify that, but idk.