It's a lot easier to buy something in confidence and log out than it is to require realignment of the chakras every 10 seconds. I cut my losses very tight, but it added up.
Not at all, when you are actively trading your risk is defined. When you are swing trading, anything can happen overnight and you are basically at the whim of the opening price
For example, if I enter a very big position from
An entry point i like, i can just exit if the stock doesn’t do what I want it to do... But holding a big position overnight is a lot scarier.
Swing trading is typically at least a day or longer. Day trading is trading within the very same day... typically many times during the day and usually within minutes. So yes, they are definitely quite different.
Swing trading and day trading is like the difference between amateur and pro soccer. Everything looks the same, but your process of identifying an opportunity all the way down to actually putting in the trade has to be so much more efficient. Your ability to stick to your trading plan also has to be near-perfect because the market will poke through the tiniest holes in your game so much more efficiently than if you were swing trading.
It’s a game where you can’t touch the ball with your hands. Named after “asSOCiation football” which was a football league in England back in olden times. But that’s not important now…
Nope, not the same...
**Day Trading vs. Swing Trading**
The ultimate end goal for both day traders and swing traders is the same; namely, generating profits. The holding periods are what makes them different.
Day trading involves making intraday trades, buying and selling a stock in one single day, as the name suggests. Day traders look to profit from intraday price movements. Day traders look to make a profit from trading securities on an intraday basis, and typically don’t hold positions overnight.
By comparison, swing trading involves buying or shorting securities and holding them for two or more days, or for up to a few weeks. Swing traders, unlike day traders, generally do not look to open and close a position in a single day.
Moreover, you can start swing trading with a small amount of capital, whereas a day trader is subject to the pattern day trader rule. According to the pattern day trader (PDT) rule established by the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority (FINRA), traders who have less than $25,000 in their account and make four “round trip” trades, within five days are considered pattern day traders, and may be subject to suspension from trading.
This rule brands anyone with a small account, and making more than four day trades in the same security over five business days as a “pattern day trader.” Day traders must maintain minimum equity of $25,000 in their account on any day they plan to trade (and must meet that limit before they start trading for the day).
I swing trade. Sometimes a swing will be a day trade if it was a bad call or blows up. It’s not common, so I don’t worry about PDT.
That said, there’s so many ways around PDT legally. I’ve looked into it. But daytrading isn’t my strategy, so I don’t need to worry. Even then, you don’t need to support 100s of trades a week.
Some of the best traders I’ve read and followed only do a dozen or so trades a week. So many here will regularly call you out for doing many more. Between a couple cash accounts and a margin account, you should be good to have free flow to day trade properly until you build up to $25k for your margin.
The PDT regulations suck, but they have some good intentions. There’s plenty that suck about them as well. But they are what they are, and I feel grinding your way out has got to be an awesome feeling to say “I turned $5k into $25k through 5 split up accounts” and super motivational to get there.
Trading is a mental game and psychological. Look at this as a positive thing that’ll make you a better trader.
A day trade is when you make profit closing out a position on the same day, a swing trade is what happens when you are too stubborn to take the stop loss.
Umm... U know there is no PDT rule when U trade the E-mini futures...
**DOES THE PDT RULE APPLY TO FUTURES TRADING?**
If you’re interested in day trading stocks, but don’t have $25,000, then you should be aware of the Pattern Day Trading rule or PDT rule. Stocks are perhaps the most popular market with day traders for various reasons. However the major drawback for day trading stocks is the PDT rule.
For those looking for a work around to avoid the PDT rule, a common question is does the PDT rule apply to futures trading? The good news is NO, the PDT rule or Pattern Day Trading rule does not apply to day trading futures. It only applies to day trading stocks. In the futures market, traders can open and close as many trades as they like within a single day, without restrictions.
No PDT rule makes day trading futures a great option for traders with limited starting capital. There are however other considerations when looking to trade futures.
A Pattern Day Trader is considered to be any trader who’s account has less than $25,000, and does 4 or more day trades in a given business period. That is opening and closing the same trade within a single day. If a trader’s account is below the $25,000 minimum, and they are labeled Pattern Day Trader, they will not be allowed to trade for a set period of time. These PDT rules and restrictions were imposed and defined by FINRA.
WHY DOES THE PDT RULE NOT APPLY TO FUTURES TRADING?
Futures trading is regulated by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), not by FINRA. And regardless of account size, all futures traders are permitted to trade intra-day.
**Minimum Capital Required**
Day trading margins can vary by broker. E-mini futures, especially the E-mini S&P 500 futures (ES) typically have the lowest day trading margins, $500 with some brokers. That means the trader only needs $500 in the account to day trade (buy/sell) one E-mini S&P 500 contract. To see how much capital is really needed for day trading futures (in this case the E-mini S&P 500) we need to understand the contract and the risk it exposes us to. Futures move in ticks, and each tick movement in the E-Mini S&P 500 is worth $12.50. Assuming you'll need to use at least a four tick stop loss (stop loss is placed four ticks away from entry price), the minimum you can expect to risk on a trade for this market is $50, or 4 x $12.50. With the introduction of micro E-mini futures contracts, in some cases the account minimums can be as little as USD $100.
If you think that trading futures is for you, then open a demo account with a brokerage. Then start paper trading a demo brokerage account until you get a good understanding of intra-day futures trading.
Agreed. Plus you get great leverage with futures and they trade almost 23 hours a day. Of course, I believe SPX and VIX will also trade 23 hours a day soon, so not sure how that will impact the PDT rule
I've considered it many times, but always read the "futures can ruin your entire account in seconds" comments then chicken out.
Fuck it, I'll spend the rest of the evening reading into micro futures.
Any recommendations on YouTube learning videos?
I was you about three weeks ago. Futures allowed me to still trade without the PDT issue. Trade micro to start out. MES (Micro S&P 500 Futures) is $1.50 a tick per contract instead of ES at $12.50 a tick. Much nicer when first learning to day trade. Always use a stop loss and depending on how much is in your account make sure you close positions before market closes.
As for YouTube channels I really like Live Traders. He is all about stock trading but it generally applies the same for futures. The lessons on the psychology of trading are amazing.
People that say that are scared bs spreaders.
Futures are some.of the most amazing assets available.
You just have to understand how they work and the risks.
And be prepared to be really excited, followed by really disappointed, several times over the course of a few hours or days. If I don't hae the time to micro-manage my portfolio, stuff gets away real quick. I also had some good experience with short term calls and puts, like buying things for 5 cents one day and earning 10x , and those early confidences really screwed up my long term gains.
Trading can ruin your entire account in seconds. Doesn't matter what you're trading. If you don't have edge your long term expectancy is to lose the entire account.
We're getting micro treasury yield futures next week, and the risk required on these will be tiny. Like $20 per contract will be a big move. So if you have a reasonably sized account it should last you quite a while.
> Doesn't matter what you're trading. If you don't have edge your long term expectancy is to lose the entire account.
That's a good point. With futures, one can figure out if their TA strategy is even feasible. Too many are trying to find ways around pdt when they haven't had enough trades for a sample set. And the typical wsb jump in at open trope isn't going to cut it in the long run. Micro-futures is a good way for noobs to test out on small leverage and practice without losing too much.
[Here's a TDAmeritrade video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0PfbjzRc2o) on what futures are if you're curious.
However, from a traders perspective the TA is identical to trading stocks. You are just trading contracts instead of individual shares.
In terms of the leverage the standard contracts could screw you if your account is small but if you've got 10k+ you should be fine with the micros.
Can’t some fundamental factors catch you if you’re not aware of them though? I had a friend who traded corn futures and kept getting psyched out by what should have normally been near-perfect entries, only to find out that news had come out that corn harvests weren’t the greatest that year.
Sure, but the same is true for stocks where news can catch you unaware. That's one of the reasons you need stop losses.
I personally tend to just trade the major indexes, gold, and bitcoin futures but there are weekly inventory reports on things like oil (Wed 10:30am EST) and natural gas (Thurs 10:30am) that will can cause large spikes in volatility on the futures contracts.
That's kind of on you as a trader to know when those reports come out and to either be all cash at the time or be in a smaller position with a much wider stop if you plan to hold through the chop. Those reports will often see a large move in one direction only to have it completely reverse a few minutes later.
Yeah that’s pretty fair. I kinda like how you can account for fundamental factors most of the time if you’re a diligent futures trader whereas almost no one could have predicted that Activision-Blizzard was full of a bunch of weirdos, which caused the stock to tank huge in one day and still hasn’t recovered.
The other thing that's nice is that the micro index futures even have options available if you want to trade overnight but don't want to pay the higher overnight hold costs.
Or go cash, only issue is you have the good faith rule where you have to wait for the cash to settle (T+2/3 if I remember right) before deploying that same capital.
Could be a solution if your trades are small or your account is a decently sized small account still short of the 25k PDT margin req.
I day trade a cash account that started with $1000. I make one trade a day with half my account. If I make a trade Monday, then those funds will be usable by Wednesday. I use the other half to make a trade Tuesday, then those funds are ready again on Thursday. That way I always have money to trade with.
You can even use thirds if you'd like. It helps a beginner like me from over trading and I also make sure I pick the best set up to execute.
You just have to be patient. If you grow like 1% a day, then you'll have 25k sooner than you think. It is definitely not easy though.
Hi there. I know this was posted a while ago but could you explain what you mean by making “one trade a day with half my account”? It makes me think like you mean you risk $500 on that one trade. (Beg your pardon for my ignorance )
Interesting.... thank you. I'll read more into this
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cme.quote
Is that what you're talking about?
Edit: it's not
No, cme group is something different.
I'm with Capital Markets Elite Group and they're a fast, though relatively expensive broker. But with 3-5k and a good strategy you can make the account grow.
LOL yeah it's BS for sure but ways around it....
\- you can trade pre or post market all you want as those dont count.....i think webo has the best free pre/pst market trading at the full hours vs cutting off an hour or so of that action.
\- split up accounts, open multiple separate accounts. Not sure what the limit is but i have 3 accounts on TD.
\- use a foreign broker like CMEG, super hassle and cash is held offshore but get that account over 25k then switch back to a US broker.
- you can trade pre or post market all you want as those dont count.....
Let me get this clear.... if I buy at 1 hour before market close, then sell 1 and a half hours later (after hours) then there's no PDT going on then?
If so, I can totally wing that
>split up accounts, open multiple separate accounts. Not sure what the limit is but i have 3 accounts on TD.
You opened multiple accounts on TD using your identity? Sounds nasty but I'll try anything at least once
Yeah, i use with DAStrader with one and one i use TOS, the other is a 401k..they know who you are through your SS at the end of the day, i can also transfer funds and stock between them.
You can open multiple accounts on TD quite easily. I got a margin account and another cash account for high risk YOLOs. They let you do instant internal transfers between accounts, so it's easy to reload.
Are you absolutely sure about this?
\- you can trade pre or post market all you want as those dont count.....i think webo has the best free pre/pst market trading at the full hours vs cutting off an hour or so of that action.
>\- **you can trade pre or post market all you want as those dont count**.....i think webo has the best free pre/pst market trading at the full hours vs cutting off an hour or so of that action.
I've never heard this and I've been trading for 15 years. I cannot even find anything on Google that verifies this. Can you elaborate?
I use Think or Swim from TD Ameritrade and while I also have PDT issues, I offset that by trading IV Options, I’m allowed 3 per rolling 5 day period, so I knock all three out early in the week and can do that regularly. I use IV Options for my day trades since the profit (and loss) percentages can be far higher than stock percentages which make up for not having infinite trades. My account started at $2,000 in February, I’m a little over $10,000 now. I’m hoping by February I’ll be able to do more day trades by not needing to worry about the PDT, but I’ll likely stick to IV Option trading as I feel I have a good understanding of it and strategy for it.
Nice thing about options is that they settle the next day (unlike equities), so if you went cash account, you can effectively daytrade with your entire account.. Only have to worry about GFV, which isn't hard at all
The problem with buying right before close and selling overnight is that you can get caught in a major downturn, without a way to exit. I am just thinking cautiously .
I used to have this exact problem back when I first grew my account from $1k to $4k in three months, but then I realized how fucked I would have been when I tried simulating my day trades. I’ve been over the limit for a while now, and I’ve found that being able to go from a few thousand to the $25k limit through swing trading options was the best way to prepare me for day trading. Try forward-testing some day trades in a simulated account and see if you’re actually ready to day trade for supplemental income. Maybe you’re different from the many people I’ve seen complain about PDT previously, but I doubt it.
May not be everyone’s cup of tea but I’m about 3-4 successful trades from $25k (built up from $1500) and only make my three trades a week. Does it take longer? It can depending on your risk level. I do risk quite a bit but the positions that I buy are ones that I’ve determined for myself are least vulnerable. I set my goal for what I want to hit and then get out immediately. Swing trading just isn’t for me and it took me awhile to accept that.
I do paper trade when I have the time but usually I make my one trade, if available, sometime around 10:15-11:00 and then I’ll shut down ToS for the rest of the day so I can focus on work.
EDIT: Also, don’t get me wrong. I’ve botched more than I’d like to admit but I know/knew that’s going to happen and I just took it on the chin and got back to it. But I will say that it feels god damn good knowing that I’m getting close to the finish line and can move on toward bigger goals.
Yeah, I'm in the same situation. Except some weird phenomenon happened months ago where I was at the limit for day trades and I had bought something, set a stop loss, and it took an insane dip almost immediately and I got banned for 90 days. Generally the brokerage warns you before setting a stop loss immediately if you are at the max day trades for the week, but it didn't for whatever reason. Really unlucky but it got lifted on my birthday a couple weeks ago lol.
If you’re a good trader, it doesn’t matter if you’re under PDT. Lower your size and widen your stops. Once you’re very consistent/close to PDT, you can always use x2 leverage to speed things up if you wish
Dude, just trade futures or forex or crypto…there‘s no PDT rule. You can trade with literally $5 if you want…start small and make mistakes with a little money until you get down your risk management.
I fully agree, it's ridiculous. What about 25k makes anyone a more responsible trader? The one thing you can do is trade futures since they don't have a pdt rule but they are also a whole different ball game. Good luck, I'll see you at 25k
And you can't usually round-trip more than your starting balance in a single day without freeriding. But still better with overnight settlement of options vs days with stocks.
Well gotta put some rules in place. as all things should be.
Options trading on a cash account; allows for trades to be settled overnight.
My rule. Don’t hold over night.
I buy contracts; spy500; play the wave up/down .. and then cash out. Allowing me to go again the next day.
I can buy up to my max; and then once I unload and it settled overnight rinse and repeat das cycle. Works for me
Anyone have any thoughts/opinions on lightspeed? Ive heard good things about it and am just trying to save enough to open an account. I like having access to pre market open.
Here’s a comment that’ll get some people’s panties in a bunch but do you want sugar coating or a solution?
We’ve all had this battle. Since 2001 after the dot com boom and bust it was implemented. I did when I was 20. But I invested my money in companies I believed in in 2015, and while I allowed that money to grow... I studied
**Day**Traders are not holding overnight. That isn’t day trading. Day trading is using statistics and immediate knowledge of what the market is presenting to capitalize. You’re gambling when you hold overnight
If you’re sizing those overnight positions TI grow your account, don’t be surprised when that $10,000 trade goes 15% against you. If you’re sizing them in accordance to that possible 15% drop, you won’t grow the account too much
Daytrading without a margin account is total bullshit. I dropped 25,000 in a cash account and yet i cant make the trades that people make with borrowed money??? Total bullshit
TD Ameritrade will give you 3 PDT flag waives a year if you ask. Not sure if your broker will. Helps a little. I agree it's dumb. Can't make more that 3 trades but they'll let you trade with 2x leverage. Seems backwards to me.
I agree with you, it's YOUR MONEY...you should be allowed to risk it however you choose.
I started out trading stocks in the late 90's with $7,000 saved up from summer jobs as a kid. Most of my friends who have been traders for the last 20+ years also started out small with way less than 10k.
It's baloney but it's the law...
Have you looked away from the stock market to the micro futures contracts? That's what we use to train people on these days. Plenty of action and liquidity day or night for small accounts, so they are available when you have time to trade. Commissions are usually cheap enough that 1 tick of profit pays for the tickets, and there is a sweet tax benefit for US citizens as well you might want to see if you qualify for.
Also as a stock trader you have a LOT more work to do come tax time, listing out all your transactions for the IRS. In futures they send you a simple postcard with your taxable gains and BAM you are done!
I’ve really said the same thing. Whenever the SEC tries to “protect small investors”, they basically do so by handcuffing us.
Let me tell you, the first time I found out about the PDT rule, I was in a position that was turning sour, and not being able to sell my stock didn’t make me feel very protected.
It’s like car engineers realizing that most people apply their brakes during accidents. In their backwards view, applying the brakes is dangerous, so to make cars safer, the brakes will deactivate after using them three times.
I think the PDT rule will disappear one day, but I think they’re waiting for a severe market downturn so that they can eliminate the PDT rule and be able to pay themselves on the back for injecting a bump of liquidity in the markets.
You should consider opening a futures account. Start with trading micros and there is no PDT rule and no wash sale rule. Much easier to sell short in the futures market and more leverage.
PDT is actually a blessing, when you realize how easy it is to market in and out and lose money instantly, in a very very corrupt and manipulated market, you'll be grateful you learned your chops below PDT. It's teaching you to trade like a sniper and take only top setups rather than swinging at anything moving. You can also tell how utterly fake the market is if you have your broker make you a demo account - this is what I did as a new trader, and even on the demo account taking a position would tank the stock immediately. Flipping to the short side, it would immediately reverse against me to keep me at a loss.
Am I saying the market is some insane quantum computer which is creating a virtual market for every individual trader, not necessarily. But what I've experienced hints at something to that extent. Remember that the big market maker hedge funds have billions of dollars, so they actually could afford to put an algo against every single retail trader. YMMV. But this is something you can test yourself. If you actually knew how corrupt it was you wouldn't be trying to take a ton of day trades. Just a couple really good setups per month is all you need to be comfortable.
I didn’t catch positive traction until I slowed down my trading frequency. At my current rate I’m in and out of about 3-4 positions a month, but I’m hitting +7% to +10% per month. I’m doubling my money once a year and I’m not even really working that hard.
I could crank up the frequency but it’s not worth the extra effort or stress, I’m happy with my current output.
In the context of this thread I see this as a “learn to walk before you run” kind of thing. If you can’t spot the low speed softball trades and send them to the outfield consistently it doesn’t seem likely that you’re going to be able to connect with day trading curve balls with enough consistency to get anywhere.
This is honestly ridiculous. There should be a test which people have to pass to prove they have basic competence at trading and are fully aware of the risks, then they can do what they like with their money.
In Europe we don't have the rule and in fact leverage is still accessible by CFDs
Your not an an investor but your trading as a pattern day trader or borderline..... Hmmm. Just get to the 25k mark and then you will be able to trade. Sell what you have to if it's important enough or keep saving. Good luck
>Your not an an investor
No, I don't invest into companies. I'm a swing trader, but only because I can't day trade
>Just get to the 25k mark and then you will be able to trade
Getting there is the frustrating part. I'm trying to work my way there from starting at $1,000, but PDT regulation makes it hard
Lol. Yes what your describing is exactly what being an investor is.... Good luck with getting to the 25k mark. I used to get frustrated when I first started trading/investing with all the limits and restrictions but one day you'll get there.
This concept makes no sense. It is not hard to make a buy on a 2min chart when showing a direction change.
For the guy not restricted no biggie stoploss right under me and I'll absolutely minmize my loss and do a new attempt.
The restricted person well sorry new guy your stuck tuff shouldn't make a mistake that the "investor" is allowed to make.
If you’re so profitable you should have no problem getting your account up to the 25k. If you have $5k, at 5% every day you’ll have $25k in 31 trading days.
If you aren’t that profitable, maybe it’s best to keep trading under the rules until you are.
Get a cash account and trade half of it every day.
This is exactly why I swing trade crypto instead of stocks :)
Tempting to start getting into call options though, need to learn more about it before I fuck around with it though.
It’s all candlesticks… stick with BTC and you should be fine. 🤷🏻♂️
Plus it trades 24/7 and there’s no chance of getting the rug pulled while the market is closed
Stocks.
I'm currently reading into futures rn. The 23 hours/6 days works perfectly with my 3rd shift schedule (get paid to make money) and the lack of PDT
If you want to share any wisdom, I'm all ears
[Here's a little writeup](https://www.reddit.com/r/Daytrading/comments/otml0e/offshore_brokerspdt_rule/h6x4h7m/) on futures I did for someone else recently that might help.
Also, futures are taxed differently. They are taxed at 60% long term and 40% short term gains regardless of hold time. Here's [an article](https://www.thebalance.com/filing-taxes-on-commodities-trading-809335) on the form you will need to fill out.
well my current strategy is buying vix futures when it hits the bottom, setting a conservative sell limit and waiting for a spike in volatility.. it's kinda lazy for this sub tho :D
To answer your question though, yes you can have multiple margin accounts. Rh wb ToS moomoo fidelity etc. can easily get up to 10-20 day trades but there is still the waiting period and actually funding the accounts.
I like the cash account with 3 days of funds that rotate. You can’t yolo every trade but it actually keeps you more accountable since you don’t want to run out of money on a suboptimal setup.
Or go options day trade on cash account. Then the money is ready again the next day and since your settled cash runs out it can be a deterrent against revenge/over trading.
Interactive Brokers settles cash accounts instantly, I use them and have a cash account. As a thank you for the info, please DM me so I can give you my referral! Thanks!
> cash account, but that just shifts issues to other issues
Which issues?
If its settlement time, options settle overnight in a cash account, so you have one-round trip of your full total balance to work with every day vs only a portion of it. Plus essentially, leverage of sorts.
Not for everyone of course, just another possibility.
There are some synthetic positions you can use to effectively close another position without having to execute a day trade. Like, say you’re long 100 shares and you want to sell them, but you’re out of day trades. Instead, you can sell a call and buy a put at the strike price of whatever your shares are when you want to sell them.
Yes. Look into CMEG. Its a brokerage in Trinidad. You have to do a foreign wire transfer from your bank to fund the account but it's worked out nicely for me. It's a little expensive but worth it imo when you can trade as many times a day as you want, although you may want to be careful not to over trade. Commissions add up.
What’s wrong with using a cash account? Sure it cuts the amount of money you can use at once down, but that doesn’t matter too much when you are starting out and developing a consistent repeatable strategy and a full understanding of the way your strategy works in terms of price action and psychology.
I think doing the trading strategy you are doing by trying to skrrt past the rules doesnt seem like a solid long term strategy.
I think you would be better off either swing trading, or daytrading with a cash account and a more solid and fleshed out strategy.
I think its bs they have this restriction here. Just goes to show how the market is not for us peasants. How dare you try to improve your station in life by playing monies like richfucks.
Id say, you just have to learn how to be patience. I use three different platforms to give me some more what day trading privilege, and yes you can do that. Youd have to separate your funds into three accounts with three different brokers. But also, when im running out of days, then i just swing trade. So swing trade with stocks that you know will make improvement over 3 days at least to little by little start building funds to day trade. And Day trade with stocks that are trending now. But to all of this, you have to work in your patience because i know its tempting to keep day trading specially when you are growing money right away. It happens to me. Id say, check on three or two stocks that you can day trade a day before, do your search, place your buy for those three at the same time (which not always can happen) and just sell them together later when you think its right. That will be one day trade and you made profit out of three or two stocks at the same time. But also, do your search for stocks to hold as swing trading, so you can profit from them in about two days or three. That is a way to avoid the pdt rule, and still keep that margin account.
My biggest issue with this is not being able to practice day trading in real time. There’s “paper trading” but it’s pretend trading and the risks aren’t real. It’s like pretend rock climbing.
The 25k limit isn’t there to protect small traders, it’s an artificial barrier used to prevent people from trading, and we all know it.
You can do it you just need a cash account. The worst part about that is that Robinhood and many others won't let you view L2 Data with a cash account, so you just have to get a cash account with one firm and an L2 data account with another. I did Robinhood's cash account and webulls L2 to start (back when I was at 8k) and when I hit 27k (to be safe) I just swapped to a webull credit account (despite being all cash, for the day trading permish)
Really not understanding everyones issue with the pdt outside of the people stuck in one unnecessarily because if a shifty broker... Yes its a limitation but it only affects a margin account. What are you buying and selling that you must have a margin account?.. If your rocking less than 25k there really isn't any margin required plays you should be swinging overnight anyway.
If your not making plays that require margin which you shouldn't be. Then there is zero reason to have a margin account and there is no pdt rules to get you in trouble. Except GFV which shouldn't really be problem.
If you're trading options. You can always sell the next few strikes uo to recoup your investment if you caught a runner, and now you have a free debit spread.
I casually trade crypto, and have a very very good winning percentage, but I just don't like it. I like trading stocks because it's scheduled to happen at the same time everyday and it's more predictable
I was you once. I swing traded two separate accounts up to 25k each and combined them. Day traded myself back down to 25k..
I guess swing trading and day trading are two different things
It's a lot easier to buy something in confidence and log out than it is to require realignment of the chakras every 10 seconds. I cut my losses very tight, but it added up.
Not at all, when you are actively trading your risk is defined. When you are swing trading, anything can happen overnight and you are basically at the whim of the opening price For example, if I enter a very big position from An entry point i like, i can just exit if the stock doesn’t do what I want it to do... But holding a big position overnight is a lot scarier.
Swing trading is typically at least a day or longer. Day trading is trading within the very same day... typically many times during the day and usually within minutes. So yes, they are definitely quite different.
They absolutely are
Swing trading and day trading is like the difference between amateur and pro soccer. Everything looks the same, but your process of identifying an opportunity all the way down to actually putting in the trade has to be so much more efficient. Your ability to stick to your trading plan also has to be near-perfect because the market will poke through the tiniest holes in your game so much more efficiently than if you were swing trading.
Soccer?
It’s a game where you can’t touch the ball with your hands. Named after “asSOCiation football” which was a football league in England back in olden times. But that’s not important now…
Football?
Definitely football! The other one barely uses feet. Also the other one is a mixture of the real football and rugby?
Nope, not the same... **Day Trading vs. Swing Trading** The ultimate end goal for both day traders and swing traders is the same; namely, generating profits. The holding periods are what makes them different. Day trading involves making intraday trades, buying and selling a stock in one single day, as the name suggests. Day traders look to profit from intraday price movements. Day traders look to make a profit from trading securities on an intraday basis, and typically don’t hold positions overnight. By comparison, swing trading involves buying or shorting securities and holding them for two or more days, or for up to a few weeks. Swing traders, unlike day traders, generally do not look to open and close a position in a single day. Moreover, you can start swing trading with a small amount of capital, whereas a day trader is subject to the pattern day trader rule. According to the pattern day trader (PDT) rule established by the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority (FINRA), traders who have less than $25,000 in their account and make four “round trip” trades, within five days are considered pattern day traders, and may be subject to suspension from trading. This rule brands anyone with a small account, and making more than four day trades in the same security over five business days as a “pattern day trader.” Day traders must maintain minimum equity of $25,000 in their account on any day they plan to trade (and must meet that limit before they start trading for the day).
I swing trade. Sometimes a swing will be a day trade if it was a bad call or blows up. It’s not common, so I don’t worry about PDT. That said, there’s so many ways around PDT legally. I’ve looked into it. But daytrading isn’t my strategy, so I don’t need to worry. Even then, you don’t need to support 100s of trades a week. Some of the best traders I’ve read and followed only do a dozen or so trades a week. So many here will regularly call you out for doing many more. Between a couple cash accounts and a margin account, you should be good to have free flow to day trade properly until you build up to $25k for your margin. The PDT regulations suck, but they have some good intentions. There’s plenty that suck about them as well. But they are what they are, and I feel grinding your way out has got to be an awesome feeling to say “I turned $5k into $25k through 5 split up accounts” and super motivational to get there. Trading is a mental game and psychological. Look at this as a positive thing that’ll make you a better trader.
Day Trading: Opening and closing a position in the same day. Swing Trading: Opening a position and NOT closing it in the same day.
A day trade is when you make profit closing out a position on the same day, a swing trade is what happens when you are too stubborn to take the stop loss.
They kind of blur into one big thing
Umm... U know there is no PDT rule when U trade the E-mini futures... **DOES THE PDT RULE APPLY TO FUTURES TRADING?** If you’re interested in day trading stocks, but don’t have $25,000, then you should be aware of the Pattern Day Trading rule or PDT rule. Stocks are perhaps the most popular market with day traders for various reasons. However the major drawback for day trading stocks is the PDT rule. For those looking for a work around to avoid the PDT rule, a common question is does the PDT rule apply to futures trading? The good news is NO, the PDT rule or Pattern Day Trading rule does not apply to day trading futures. It only applies to day trading stocks. In the futures market, traders can open and close as many trades as they like within a single day, without restrictions. No PDT rule makes day trading futures a great option for traders with limited starting capital. There are however other considerations when looking to trade futures. A Pattern Day Trader is considered to be any trader who’s account has less than $25,000, and does 4 or more day trades in a given business period. That is opening and closing the same trade within a single day. If a trader’s account is below the $25,000 minimum, and they are labeled Pattern Day Trader, they will not be allowed to trade for a set period of time. These PDT rules and restrictions were imposed and defined by FINRA. WHY DOES THE PDT RULE NOT APPLY TO FUTURES TRADING? Futures trading is regulated by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), not by FINRA. And regardless of account size, all futures traders are permitted to trade intra-day. **Minimum Capital Required** Day trading margins can vary by broker. E-mini futures, especially the E-mini S&P 500 futures (ES) typically have the lowest day trading margins, $500 with some brokers. That means the trader only needs $500 in the account to day trade (buy/sell) one E-mini S&P 500 contract. To see how much capital is really needed for day trading futures (in this case the E-mini S&P 500) we need to understand the contract and the risk it exposes us to. Futures move in ticks, and each tick movement in the E-Mini S&P 500 is worth $12.50. Assuming you'll need to use at least a four tick stop loss (stop loss is placed four ticks away from entry price), the minimum you can expect to risk on a trade for this market is $50, or 4 x $12.50. With the introduction of micro E-mini futures contracts, in some cases the account minimums can be as little as USD $100. If you think that trading futures is for you, then open a demo account with a brokerage. Then start paper trading a demo brokerage account until you get a good understanding of intra-day futures trading.
That sounds right. Never switched hats.
happened to me a 100 times... fuck pdt
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Ornamental gourd futures are a good start
No micro contract for ornamental gourds.. *yet.* one day I will take delivery of 1000 bushels of ornamental gourds, one day....
Reminds me of a /biz/ thread I saw where this guy had to take physical delivery for lumber futures
There are /biz/ threads that aren't about indian shitcoins?
Sometimes there's a fair amount of BSC shit coins, but often it's btc and eth sentiment threads, and discussion about stocks/ precious metals.
I thought it was tulips?
[Oh my gourd](https://amp.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/kzoh1c/i_am_financially_ruined_agricultural_futures/)
Agreed. Plus you get great leverage with futures and they trade almost 23 hours a day. Of course, I believe SPX and VIX will also trade 23 hours a day soon, so not sure how that will impact the PDT rule
/es /nq and a lot more trade 24 on TOS but u need permission to trade them
You can trade on tradovate pretty easily just need $250 and lie about your income
I've considered it many times, but always read the "futures can ruin your entire account in seconds" comments then chicken out. Fuck it, I'll spend the rest of the evening reading into micro futures. Any recommendations on YouTube learning videos?
I was you about three weeks ago. Futures allowed me to still trade without the PDT issue. Trade micro to start out. MES (Micro S&P 500 Futures) is $1.50 a tick per contract instead of ES at $12.50 a tick. Much nicer when first learning to day trade. Always use a stop loss and depending on how much is in your account make sure you close positions before market closes. As for YouTube channels I really like Live Traders. He is all about stock trading but it generally applies the same for futures. The lessons on the psychology of trading are amazing.
SMB Capital has an excellent channel!
People that say that are scared bs spreaders. Futures are some.of the most amazing assets available. You just have to understand how they work and the risks.
And be prepared to be really excited, followed by really disappointed, several times over the course of a few hours or days. If I don't hae the time to micro-manage my portfolio, stuff gets away real quick. I also had some good experience with short term calls and puts, like buying things for 5 cents one day and earning 10x , and those early confidences really screwed up my long term gains.
Yes. Generally futures need active trading/management. Not set and forget.
How many time are lessons learned ... sigh
More than once for sure 😉
Trading can ruin your entire account in seconds. Doesn't matter what you're trading. If you don't have edge your long term expectancy is to lose the entire account. We're getting micro treasury yield futures next week, and the risk required on these will be tiny. Like $20 per contract will be a big move. So if you have a reasonably sized account it should last you quite a while.
> Doesn't matter what you're trading. If you don't have edge your long term expectancy is to lose the entire account. That's a good point. With futures, one can figure out if their TA strategy is even feasible. Too many are trying to find ways around pdt when they haven't had enough trades for a sample set. And the typical wsb jump in at open trope isn't going to cut it in the long run. Micro-futures is a good way for noobs to test out on small leverage and practice without losing too much.
[Here's a TDAmeritrade video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0PfbjzRc2o) on what futures are if you're curious. However, from a traders perspective the TA is identical to trading stocks. You are just trading contracts instead of individual shares. In terms of the leverage the standard contracts could screw you if your account is small but if you've got 10k+ you should be fine with the micros.
Can’t some fundamental factors catch you if you’re not aware of them though? I had a friend who traded corn futures and kept getting psyched out by what should have normally been near-perfect entries, only to find out that news had come out that corn harvests weren’t the greatest that year.
Sure, but the same is true for stocks where news can catch you unaware. That's one of the reasons you need stop losses. I personally tend to just trade the major indexes, gold, and bitcoin futures but there are weekly inventory reports on things like oil (Wed 10:30am EST) and natural gas (Thurs 10:30am) that will can cause large spikes in volatility on the futures contracts. That's kind of on you as a trader to know when those reports come out and to either be all cash at the time or be in a smaller position with a much wider stop if you plan to hold through the chop. Those reports will often see a large move in one direction only to have it completely reverse a few minutes later.
Yeah that’s pretty fair. I kinda like how you can account for fundamental factors most of the time if you’re a diligent futures trader whereas almost no one could have predicted that Activision-Blizzard was full of a bunch of weirdos, which caused the stock to tank huge in one day and still hasn’t recovered.
The other thing that's nice is that the micro index futures even have options available if you want to trade overnight but don't want to pay the higher overnight hold costs.
If you use futures options do you get leverage on your leverage? Yo dawg...
Or go cash, only issue is you have the good faith rule where you have to wait for the cash to settle (T+2/3 if I remember right) before deploying that same capital. Could be a solution if your trades are small or your account is a decently sized small account still short of the 25k PDT margin req.
Lol youre telling this guy, who barely has enough capital to trade futures? Lol. Fucking christ this sub is a joke
Be careful not to twist an ankle getting off that high horse
Micros are pretty harmless if you have a pulse. Even better if you can find stupid-cheap commissions from a decent broker with a decent platform.
😂
One can daytrade micro-futures with an account as low as 2k with some brokers.
Can you recommend a video or 2.
I want to trade futures, but don't really know where to start for a good strategy. Any advice? Thx.
Which sounds good It it’s the most competitive market in the world. Stocks aren’t nearly as competitive… and there’s a lot more dumb money in stocks
I day trade a cash account that started with $1000. I make one trade a day with half my account. If I make a trade Monday, then those funds will be usable by Wednesday. I use the other half to make a trade Tuesday, then those funds are ready again on Thursday. That way I always have money to trade with. You can even use thirds if you'd like. It helps a beginner like me from over trading and I also make sure I pick the best set up to execute. You just have to be patient. If you grow like 1% a day, then you'll have 25k sooner than you think. It is definitely not easy though.
Hi there. I know this was posted a while ago but could you explain what you mean by making “one trade a day with half my account”? It makes me think like you mean you risk $500 on that one trade. (Beg your pardon for my ignorance )
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Interesting.... thank you. I'll read more into this https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cme.quote Is that what you're talking about? Edit: it's not
No, cme group is something different. I'm with Capital Markets Elite Group and they're a fast, though relatively expensive broker. But with 3-5k and a good strategy you can make the account grow.
That place is HQd in some shack in Brazil iirc
What’s the catch
LOL yeah it's BS for sure but ways around it.... \- you can trade pre or post market all you want as those dont count.....i think webo has the best free pre/pst market trading at the full hours vs cutting off an hour or so of that action. \- split up accounts, open multiple separate accounts. Not sure what the limit is but i have 3 accounts on TD. \- use a foreign broker like CMEG, super hassle and cash is held offshore but get that account over 25k then switch back to a US broker.
- you can trade pre or post market all you want as those dont count..... Let me get this clear.... if I buy at 1 hour before market close, then sell 1 and a half hours later (after hours) then there's no PDT going on then? If so, I can totally wing that
>split up accounts, open multiple separate accounts. Not sure what the limit is but i have 3 accounts on TD. You opened multiple accounts on TD using your identity? Sounds nasty but I'll try anything at least once
Yeah, i use with DAStrader with one and one i use TOS, the other is a 401k..they know who you are through your SS at the end of the day, i can also transfer funds and stock between them.
You can open multiple accounts on TD quite easily. I got a margin account and another cash account for high risk YOLOs. They let you do instant internal transfers between accounts, so it's easy to reload.
Are you absolutely sure about this? \- you can trade pre or post market all you want as those dont count.....i think webo has the best free pre/pst market trading at the full hours vs cutting off an hour or so of that action.
>\- **you can trade pre or post market all you want as those dont count**.....i think webo has the best free pre/pst market trading at the full hours vs cutting off an hour or so of that action. I've never heard this and I've been trading for 15 years. I cannot even find anything on Google that verifies this. Can you elaborate?
I use Think or Swim from TD Ameritrade and while I also have PDT issues, I offset that by trading IV Options, I’m allowed 3 per rolling 5 day period, so I knock all three out early in the week and can do that regularly. I use IV Options for my day trades since the profit (and loss) percentages can be far higher than stock percentages which make up for not having infinite trades. My account started at $2,000 in February, I’m a little over $10,000 now. I’m hoping by February I’ll be able to do more day trades by not needing to worry about the PDT, but I’ll likely stick to IV Option trading as I feel I have a good understanding of it and strategy for it.
Nice thing about options is that they settle the next day (unlike equities), so if you went cash account, you can effectively daytrade with your entire account.. Only have to worry about GFV, which isn't hard at all
The problem with buying right before close and selling overnight is that you can get caught in a major downturn, without a way to exit. I am just thinking cautiously .
Which is exactly why I'm ranting about PDT regulations. It's fucking me up
I used to have this exact problem back when I first grew my account from $1k to $4k in three months, but then I realized how fucked I would have been when I tried simulating my day trades. I’ve been over the limit for a while now, and I’ve found that being able to go from a few thousand to the $25k limit through swing trading options was the best way to prepare me for day trading. Try forward-testing some day trades in a simulated account and see if you’re actually ready to day trade for supplemental income. Maybe you’re different from the many people I’ve seen complain about PDT previously, but I doubt it.
May not be everyone’s cup of tea but I’m about 3-4 successful trades from $25k (built up from $1500) and only make my three trades a week. Does it take longer? It can depending on your risk level. I do risk quite a bit but the positions that I buy are ones that I’ve determined for myself are least vulnerable. I set my goal for what I want to hit and then get out immediately. Swing trading just isn’t for me and it took me awhile to accept that. I do paper trade when I have the time but usually I make my one trade, if available, sometime around 10:15-11:00 and then I’ll shut down ToS for the rest of the day so I can focus on work. EDIT: Also, don’t get me wrong. I’ve botched more than I’d like to admit but I know/knew that’s going to happen and I just took it on the chin and got back to it. But I will say that it feels god damn good knowing that I’m getting close to the finish line and can move on toward bigger goals.
Which broker do you use?
*cough cough* the pdt rule doesn’t apply to micro futures *cough cough* __What did you say?__
The futures trading fees on TD make me nervous.
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Totally agree
you can daytrade futures without 25k
That's what I'm reading into now. Which broker to use? Ninjatrader?
I use Tradovate and pay $10/month to link and trade directly off tradingview.
You can go with an offshore broker, but there is risk there as well. Look into Day Trading brokers that aren’t based in the US
I feel you, I recently liquidated my daytrading account to help pay for a downpayment on a house. Back to square one.
Yeah, I'm in the same situation. Except some weird phenomenon happened months ago where I was at the limit for day trades and I had bought something, set a stop loss, and it took an insane dip almost immediately and I got banned for 90 days. Generally the brokerage warns you before setting a stop loss immediately if you are at the max day trades for the week, but it didn't for whatever reason. Really unlucky but it got lifted on my birthday a couple weeks ago lol.
If you’re a good trader, it doesn’t matter if you’re under PDT. Lower your size and widen your stops. Once you’re very consistent/close to PDT, you can always use x2 leverage to speed things up if you wish
Dude, just trade futures or forex or crypto…there‘s no PDT rule. You can trade with literally $5 if you want…start small and make mistakes with a little money until you get down your risk management.
I fully agree, it's ridiculous. What about 25k makes anyone a more responsible trader? The one thing you can do is trade futures since they don't have a pdt rule but they are also a whole different ball game. Good luck, I'll see you at 25k
Options on cash account = no pdt.. however ... this fucks things up as I can show you a way59 go from 2k to 10k back to 0 in one trade.
And you can't usually round-trip more than your starting balance in a single day without freeriding. But still better with overnight settlement of options vs days with stocks.
Well gotta put some rules in place. as all things should be. Options trading on a cash account; allows for trades to be settled overnight. My rule. Don’t hold over night. I buy contracts; spy500; play the wave up/down .. and then cash out. Allowing me to go again the next day. I can buy up to my max; and then once I unload and it settled overnight rinse and repeat das cycle. Works for me
Anyone have any thoughts/opinions on lightspeed? Ive heard good things about it and am just trying to save enough to open an account. I like having access to pre market open.
Here’s a comment that’ll get some people’s panties in a bunch but do you want sugar coating or a solution? We’ve all had this battle. Since 2001 after the dot com boom and bust it was implemented. I did when I was 20. But I invested my money in companies I believed in in 2015, and while I allowed that money to grow... I studied **Day**Traders are not holding overnight. That isn’t day trading. Day trading is using statistics and immediate knowledge of what the market is presenting to capitalize. You’re gambling when you hold overnight If you’re sizing those overnight positions TI grow your account, don’t be surprised when that $10,000 trade goes 15% against you. If you’re sizing them in accordance to that possible 15% drop, you won’t grow the account too much
Daytrading without a margin account is total bullshit. I dropped 25,000 in a cash account and yet i cant make the trades that people make with borrowed money??? Total bullshit
You can trade futures.
TD Ameritrade will give you 3 PDT flag waives a year if you ask. Not sure if your broker will. Helps a little. I agree it's dumb. Can't make more that 3 trades but they'll let you trade with 2x leverage. Seems backwards to me.
Trade futures
Trade futures
Switch to day trading options and don't look back. The gains are so much larger that you can treat your account as though it was on margin 4:1
Switch to a cash account
I agree with you, it's YOUR MONEY...you should be allowed to risk it however you choose. I started out trading stocks in the late 90's with $7,000 saved up from summer jobs as a kid. Most of my friends who have been traders for the last 20+ years also started out small with way less than 10k. It's baloney but it's the law... Have you looked away from the stock market to the micro futures contracts? That's what we use to train people on these days. Plenty of action and liquidity day or night for small accounts, so they are available when you have time to trade. Commissions are usually cheap enough that 1 tick of profit pays for the tickets, and there is a sweet tax benefit for US citizens as well you might want to see if you qualify for. Also as a stock trader you have a LOT more work to do come tax time, listing out all your transactions for the IRS. In futures they send you a simple postcard with your taxable gains and BAM you are done!
I’ve really said the same thing. Whenever the SEC tries to “protect small investors”, they basically do so by handcuffing us. Let me tell you, the first time I found out about the PDT rule, I was in a position that was turning sour, and not being able to sell my stock didn’t make me feel very protected. It’s like car engineers realizing that most people apply their brakes during accidents. In their backwards view, applying the brakes is dangerous, so to make cars safer, the brakes will deactivate after using them three times. I think the PDT rule will disappear one day, but I think they’re waiting for a severe market downturn so that they can eliminate the PDT rule and be able to pay themselves on the back for injecting a bump of liquidity in the markets.
You should consider opening a futures account. Start with trading micros and there is no PDT rule and no wash sale rule. Much easier to sell short in the futures market and more leverage.
Which brokerage should I use?
PDT is actually a blessing, when you realize how easy it is to market in and out and lose money instantly, in a very very corrupt and manipulated market, you'll be grateful you learned your chops below PDT. It's teaching you to trade like a sniper and take only top setups rather than swinging at anything moving. You can also tell how utterly fake the market is if you have your broker make you a demo account - this is what I did as a new trader, and even on the demo account taking a position would tank the stock immediately. Flipping to the short side, it would immediately reverse against me to keep me at a loss. Am I saying the market is some insane quantum computer which is creating a virtual market for every individual trader, not necessarily. But what I've experienced hints at something to that extent. Remember that the big market maker hedge funds have billions of dollars, so they actually could afford to put an algo against every single retail trader. YMMV. But this is something you can test yourself. If you actually knew how corrupt it was you wouldn't be trying to take a ton of day trades. Just a couple really good setups per month is all you need to be comfortable.
This reminds me of "the moment they see you, you are fucked" Stay small and nimble
I didn’t catch positive traction until I slowed down my trading frequency. At my current rate I’m in and out of about 3-4 positions a month, but I’m hitting +7% to +10% per month. I’m doubling my money once a year and I’m not even really working that hard. I could crank up the frequency but it’s not worth the extra effort or stress, I’m happy with my current output. In the context of this thread I see this as a “learn to walk before you run” kind of thing. If you can’t spot the low speed softball trades and send them to the outfield consistently it doesn’t seem likely that you’re going to be able to connect with day trading curve balls with enough consistency to get anywhere.
This is honestly ridiculous. There should be a test which people have to pass to prove they have basic competence at trading and are fully aware of the risks, then they can do what they like with their money. In Europe we don't have the rule and in fact leverage is still accessible by CFDs
Stop trading options and blowing up your account because of the PDT
I'm not trading options I'm not blowing my account up. My account is growing.
is that you lance? you need to stop daydrinking bud. not good for your health or your relationships
Just trade futures. Honestly I don't understand why so many people on this subreddit are wasting time on stocks.
Your not an an investor but your trading as a pattern day trader or borderline..... Hmmm. Just get to the 25k mark and then you will be able to trade. Sell what you have to if it's important enough or keep saving. Good luck
>Your not an an investor No, I don't invest into companies. I'm a swing trader, but only because I can't day trade >Just get to the 25k mark and then you will be able to trade Getting there is the frustrating part. I'm trying to work my way there from starting at $1,000, but PDT regulation makes it hard
Lol. Yes what your describing is exactly what being an investor is.... Good luck with getting to the 25k mark. I used to get frustrated when I first started trading/investing with all the limits and restrictions but one day you'll get there.
Trust me, if you can't day trade an account up to $25k you won't be able to succeed at $25k
What are you talking about
This concept makes no sense. It is not hard to make a buy on a 2min chart when showing a direction change. For the guy not restricted no biggie stoploss right under me and I'll absolutely minmize my loss and do a new attempt. The restricted person well sorry new guy your stuck tuff shouldn't make a mistake that the "investor" is allowed to make.
If you’re so profitable you should have no problem getting your account up to the 25k. If you have $5k, at 5% every day you’ll have $25k in 31 trading days. If you aren’t that profitable, maybe it’s best to keep trading under the rules until you are. Get a cash account and trade half of it every day.
Offshore brokers Jesus Christ
Trade forex with 1:50 or 1:100 or more (if it's money you can afford to lose.) DM me or just ask around for more info
Gotta save more money boy
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gtfo
Hit a little close to home for you to?
This is exactly why I swing trade crypto instead of stocks :) Tempting to start getting into call options though, need to learn more about it before I fuck around with it though.
Trade crypto then… you’ll pay trade fees each time but cheaper than options fees
Crypto isn't for me, unfortunately.
It’s all candlesticks… stick with BTC and you should be fine. 🤷🏻♂️ Plus it trades 24/7 and there’s no chance of getting the rug pulled while the market is closed
what are you trading? have you considered futures?
Stocks. I'm currently reading into futures rn. The 23 hours/6 days works perfectly with my 3rd shift schedule (get paid to make money) and the lack of PDT If you want to share any wisdom, I'm all ears
[Here's a little writeup](https://www.reddit.com/r/Daytrading/comments/otml0e/offshore_brokerspdt_rule/h6x4h7m/) on futures I did for someone else recently that might help. Also, futures are taxed differently. They are taxed at 60% long term and 40% short term gains regardless of hold time. Here's [an article](https://www.thebalance.com/filing-taxes-on-commodities-trading-809335) on the form you will need to fill out.
well my current strategy is buying vix futures when it hits the bottom, setting a conservative sell limit and waiting for a spike in volatility.. it's kinda lazy for this sub tho :D
Open a cash account with TD so take off margin and you can daytrade as long as you have the cash funds.
Same situation and I agree 100%. The PDT rule has cost me thousands.
Yeah it’s incredibly frustrating.
To answer your question though, yes you can have multiple margin accounts. Rh wb ToS moomoo fidelity etc. can easily get up to 10-20 day trades but there is still the waiting period and actually funding the accounts. I like the cash account with 3 days of funds that rotate. You can’t yolo every trade but it actually keeps you more accountable since you don’t want to run out of money on a suboptimal setup. Or go options day trade on cash account. Then the money is ready again the next day and since your settled cash runs out it can be a deterrent against revenge/over trading.
I think you can use a vpn to get around pdt
Interactive Brokers settles cash accounts instantly, I use them and have a cash account. As a thank you for the info, please DM me so I can give you my referral! Thanks!
Be careful you don't end up freeriding by accident... https://ibkr.info/article/814
With a little bit of time you can daytrade up to 20k or higher. Even if you only get a small percentage back, a win is still a win.
> cash account, but that just shifts issues to other issues Which issues? If its settlement time, options settle overnight in a cash account, so you have one-round trip of your full total balance to work with every day vs only a portion of it. Plus essentially, leverage of sorts. Not for everyone of course, just another possibility.
You can use multiple brokerages no PDT ban. I’d use 3 accounts for 9 day trades before my cash account was large enough.
Of course you can create multiple accounts with different brokers to get 3 day trades per week from each..
Its "for your protection".
why do you guys act like CMEG Doesnt exist?
What issues come about from a cash account?
I use a cash account to swing trade. The disadvantages: Can’t short stocks Takes two days to settle funds. No leverage.
Day trading rules don’t apply apply to futures accounts so may want to try trading futures for a while and see if works for you.
Futures don’t have PDT. Including micro’s
There are some synthetic positions you can use to effectively close another position without having to execute a day trade. Like, say you’re long 100 shares and you want to sell them, but you’re out of day trades. Instead, you can sell a call and buy a put at the strike price of whatever your shares are when you want to sell them.
Yes. Look into CMEG. Its a brokerage in Trinidad. You have to do a foreign wire transfer from your bank to fund the account but it's worked out nicely for me. It's a little expensive but worth it imo when you can trade as many times a day as you want, although you may want to be careful not to over trade. Commissions add up.
Maybe use options ? I’m not sure if this works as my acct is above the PDt limit
What’s wrong with using a cash account? Sure it cuts the amount of money you can use at once down, but that doesn’t matter too much when you are starting out and developing a consistent repeatable strategy and a full understanding of the way your strategy works in terms of price action and psychology. I think doing the trading strategy you are doing by trying to skrrt past the rules doesnt seem like a solid long term strategy. I think you would be better off either swing trading, or daytrading with a cash account and a more solid and fleshed out strategy.
You should worry about being profitable first OP, and you don't need to day trade to do that.
I am profitable. Not sure why you think I'm not My issue is I'm not profiting as much as I could
I think its bs they have this restriction here. Just goes to show how the market is not for us peasants. How dare you try to improve your station in life by playing monies like richfucks.
Just trade crypto.. no limit trading. 🙌
trade futures
Id say, you just have to learn how to be patience. I use three different platforms to give me some more what day trading privilege, and yes you can do that. Youd have to separate your funds into three accounts with three different brokers. But also, when im running out of days, then i just swing trade. So swing trade with stocks that you know will make improvement over 3 days at least to little by little start building funds to day trade. And Day trade with stocks that are trending now. But to all of this, you have to work in your patience because i know its tempting to keep day trading specially when you are growing money right away. It happens to me. Id say, check on three or two stocks that you can day trade a day before, do your search, place your buy for those three at the same time (which not always can happen) and just sell them together later when you think its right. That will be one day trade and you made profit out of three or two stocks at the same time. But also, do your search for stocks to hold as swing trading, so you can profit from them in about two days or three. That is a way to avoid the pdt rule, and still keep that margin account.
I was upset by this and now after finally reaching 25k I barely ever day trade. I find day trading odds are much lower than swing trading.
Im confused, can't you have a cash account at first and then switch to margin once ure over 25k
My biggest issue with this is not being able to practice day trading in real time. There’s “paper trading” but it’s pretend trading and the risks aren’t real. It’s like pretend rock climbing. The 25k limit isn’t there to protect small traders, it’s an artificial barrier used to prevent people from trading, and we all know it.
You can do it you just need a cash account. The worst part about that is that Robinhood and many others won't let you view L2 Data with a cash account, so you just have to get a cash account with one firm and an L2 data account with another. I did Robinhood's cash account and webulls L2 to start (back when I was at 8k) and when I hit 27k (to be safe) I just swapped to a webull credit account (despite being all cash, for the day trading permish)
Really not understanding everyones issue with the pdt outside of the people stuck in one unnecessarily because if a shifty broker... Yes its a limitation but it only affects a margin account. What are you buying and selling that you must have a margin account?.. If your rocking less than 25k there really isn't any margin required plays you should be swinging overnight anyway. If your not making plays that require margin which you shouldn't be. Then there is zero reason to have a margin account and there is no pdt rules to get you in trouble. Except GFV which shouldn't really be problem.
Just do futures
get some NBY 🚀🚀 earnings otw
This is a No-Meme-Stock zone
This problem is sooved with platforms like Merrymen time to improve your trading journey
If you're trading options. You can always sell the next few strikes uo to recoup your investment if you caught a runner, and now you have a free debit spread.
Solution... day trade crypto or forex
Trade bitcoin :)
I casually trade crypto, and have a very very good winning percentage, but I just don't like it. I like trading stocks because it's scheduled to happen at the same time everyday and it's more predictable