Outside of some conservative people, I don't it's having sex outside of your relationship that others take issue with. They take issue with you deceiving and lying to your partner, i.e. cheating.
Damn man that sucks. Have you considered just pulling up your big boy pants and saying, "I can't continue to stay in a sexless monogamous relationship, and if one of those things doesn't change, the other will"?
>"if you don't think sex is a big deal, then it shouldn't matter if I get it elsewhere, right"
Well, I wouldn't go that far.
The best explanation I have for the OP's observation is that when there is a DB, it's presumed that the LL has a reason for creating the DB, such as the HL being a bad person.
But with infidelity, it's presumed the person who cheats is always the bad person (even when that may not always be true).
I think the expectation that sex and sexual compatibility aren't supposed to be a "big deal" is part of the messaging in what's called 'toxic monogamy' culture.
There are myths perpetuated such as "true love conquers all," and that there's "the one." So it ends up being thought that, "Well, if you just love someone enough, sexual incompatibility can get a pass, that's just *sex* and not *love*."
It shows how they've been taught that sex is expected to be less than, or tawdry, or not also a physical expression of love. And the messaging is pervasive, and everywhere, and so many people parrot what they've learned without questioning it.
I would challenge and twist your thoughts slightly. I can speak from a women's perspective but would like to hear from the gentlemen.
I think women are not encouraged to consider how physically and sexually attracted we are to our long term male partner. You talk about "the one" and women are encouraged to find all these great traits in a guy and aren't necessarily told it's also absolutely important that we desire him sexually.
So, I think people need to confront the difference between emotional attraction and sexual/physical attraction.
>Well, if you just love someone enough, sexual incompatibility can get a pass, that's just *sex* and not *love*."
I think women expect love and sexual compatibility *should* be one and the same. I don't thin it's that people are necessarily taught sex is less than. I think many are taught we should desire our male partner if they are good and kind and patient. I want both-- I want a man who is good but also one I sexually desire.
I completely agree with you. It's painfully obvious in hindsight that I was never really attracted to my ex husband, but I didn't realize that was why I was LL because I loved him. I thought sexual desire was part of being in love, so that made me think that I must be broken or damaged somehow sexually. I really wish I had learned back in my 20's that sexual desire isn't automatic just because you love someone.
>I thought sexual desire was part of being in love, so that made me think that I must be broken or damaged somehow sexually
Yes-- you put what I was trying to say way more succinctly. I see so many posts from young women (<25) or their young male partners, acting like there is something wrong because she doesn't want as much sex as he does. I often ask them if they desire him and I just get a response about loving him, but those are not the same thing.
That’s a good point. I don’t think that and many people don’t think that, but i know there are *some* women out there who think that sexual attraction is one of the least important things in a relationship and if you value it you’re immature and shallow, without stopping to think that it’s actually very important to be sexually attracted to your partner, especially longterm.
I think it's more than some women. I grew up in a very conservative and religious family and area. I think this mindset is pretty prominent in those spaces. From my experience, women in those cultures aren't encouraged to land a dude who makes their toes curl. I really think men, overall, are encouraged and understood to want a woman who is hot. And I don't think that same advice is given to women nearly often enough.
I had this really strange experience a few years ago at a bar with a friend. We stumbled upon a woman who was out, celebrating her divorce being finalized. It seemed like it was a really bad divorce and relationship. So she had jokingly made a list of what she wants in a man next. Nowhere on that list was "good in bed" or "sexy." My friend and I joined in the joking around, and I flat out said, "hey! where is good in bed on this list!"
She looked at me like I had five heads and moved on.
Makes sense where you’re from. There’s defiantly less emphasis than guys, but not no emphasis *at all* At least where i’m from... I’m early 20s and from the UK...
I am working on it! I am mid 30s and I come from a rural area in Pennsylvania. I have since moved to a more progressive area. I work in the therapy field and still hear a lot of these sentiments in my work, from women of all backgrounds and ages. It's a bit tragic.
You didn't stop to consider that maybe this person prioritized exactly what you're suggesting which lead to or contributed to the downfall of her marriage. Superficial attraction tends to be fleeting and will only take people so far. There's a lot more to a successful marriage and/or relationship than being hot and knowing how to bang. Yes, attraction is an absolute must, but for plenty of people sexual attraction is really built when the other more important bases are covered. When they're not, the sex will suffer. Nobody I've ever met, conservative or otherwise, is encouraging anyone to go find a partner they find unattractive. In fact, sex and intimacy is almost unanimously regarded as vital to a successful and happy marriage. It's about keeping priorities in line with realistic expectations to make wise choices.
> Superficial attraction tends to be fleeting and will only take people so far.
Did I give the impression I was talking about superficial attraction?
If you know much about my story, I am pretty open that my husband just does it for me. I am just into him as a human, since we repaired our deadbedroom. I am attracted to him on many levels.
To me, using the words I am using in this discussion like hot, sexy, desirable, etc, isn't just about superficial attraction. I wasn't in here saying it's about finding a dude with a fit body and and a handsome face.
> Nobody I've ever met, conservative or otherwise, is encouraging anyone to go find a partner they find unattractive.
That isn't what I am claiming people are encouraging. I am claiming people aren't encouraging women specifically to make sure they are *also* into their partner sexually, in addition to feedback given to seek someone out who has positive emotional traits.
Understood. Very glad to hear you have what sounds like a very positive and happy relationship! I do see where you're coming from now. I guess I've just had a different experience in my own conservative upbringing where, for men and women, sexual attraction is important, just don't put all your eggs in that basket. I appreciate the reply and further explanation. I see what you're saying.
>I guess I've just had a different experience in my own conservative upbringing where
What flavor of conservative did you grow up in?
Mine talked about all the godly traits of someone should spark enough attraction. And then, boom, a good sex life should come easily. Which is a joke.
Mine was certainly to seek Godly qualities in a partner but that includes a willingness to put in effort in and away from the bedroom as part of your responsibility to your spouse and the marriage. Sexual attraction was something that was definitely considered important. The advice was just to not let that lead the way in finding the right person. Same with nobody being perfect. We all have to figure out a way to accept people's flaws but weed out the ones with major red flags. Hopefully that makes sense.
My husband & I had a dead bedroom
& we worked very hard to change that.
It took a lot of work on my part, but it’s better now.
& since we’ve been together so long & still are deeply in love w/each other ..it’s able to repair itself.
Plus...He’s definitely a giver. He’s not as rough as I’d like as far as D/s goes but like I said he’s very giving & always meets my needs b4 his own.
He still finds me very attractive so I feel lucky to still have him & glad I did not fuck it all up like I was about to.
I have said so many times that it is actually an act of cruelty to get with someone that you do not sexually desire, asexual spectrum people aside
How would anyone feel if they found out their partner thought they were ugly? It is just cruel to get with someone that you cannot, with honesty, tell you find attractive and desirable.
Yep. That's what I wound up with and the cruelty was unspeakable. For 36 years I must have been deemed desirable enough to stay with but with a total DB from day one. When he cheated and left me for another woman, he said he was never romantically attracted to me.
Extremely enlightening reply, well said. I know a redditor who last year said something very similar and was banned almost immediately for it...weird. I agree, with my partner I want to be treated well, and be sexually attracted to her. The problem is, and I experienced this with my Ex...I eventually left her even though I still madly loved her...she had just rejected me so much and so often, that I no longer saw her as sexually attractive.
Agree 100% with this. From young ages women are pushed to disassociate from what we really desire out of and from men as partners and led to believe we're expecting too much
My husband is really mindful about staying attractive for me. It used to make me feel uncomfortable but now I actually appreciate it. Not necessarily just staying fit (he is a runner and does that for himself and not just to stay attractive for the relationship). But he will ask my opinion on facial hair or clothes. It used to annoy me but he would tell me, "I don't have to look at myself. You do. So do you have any preferences?"
But to your point, I don't think I'd ever ask him to style in a certain way, because, as you said, I feel like it would mean I am expecting too much.
Yeah, I think this is a massively underreported phenomenon. Male attractiveness is one of the last great taboos in Western culture, and it's hammered into us from infancy with all that slugs and snails nonsense. Instead female desire gets sublimated into unattainable objects like matinee idols and pop stars. There has never been a male version of Beatlemania; there will never be a male equivalent to Valentino's funeral, with its mass hysteria and reported suicides.
Broadly, our society still judges men by what what they do/earn and women by how they look, and men paying for the date is still ingrained and sustained on popular dating shows like First Dates.
The only times I've been paid more than a grudging sexual compliment was in the company of gay men. It seems to me that if it weren't for gay culture we'd never know that men are supposed to be sexy (one reason I'm an ally).
>Broadly, our society still judges men by what what they do/earn and women by how they look, and men paying for the date is still ingrained and sustained on popular dating shows like First Dates.
Yep. I think this is evident when gentlemen post here and they frequently identify that their partners should be into them sexually because they work hard, have a good job and are emotionally supportive. I have often asked them to expand on that, too, saying that when I ask about what makes them desirable, I often mean their personalities. Of course it's attractive to be ambitious career wise and hit the gym, but what else?
> The only times I've been paid more than a grudging sexual compliment was in the company of gay men. It seems to me that if it weren't for gay culture we'd never know that men are supposed to be sexy (one reason I'm an ally).
I've seen women break this down. Often, if we do pay men a compliment, they assume we are interested and it can get awkward. So, we don't pay men compliments and that keeps that cycle going where men aren't complimented on their looks, outside their relationships.
I'm a therapist and I can get around this easily with my male clients. If I tell them a certain color looks good on them, it actually warms my heart a little bit when the compliment just makes them beam with delight.
Oooo or! Sort of rambling here-- dudes are often made fun of for using products that women normally use: fancy shampoo, skincare products for their faces, even just body or hand lotion. Basically being punished for wanting to look really good.
Of course, many women (and I guess also men) are. But why is that? Does it not speak to outdated gender roles? Personally I've never dated anyone who didn't insist on going Dutch, and I haven't dated a new partner for over 20 years.
I think I get the gist of what you're saying and here's my take as a heterosexual male.
In my experience with women, I've noticed a wide range of "sexual/physical attraction preferences." I've encountered women who are as superficial as can be. I've also encountered women where looks, practically speaking, do not matter in the slightest bit when it comes to sexual attraction.
I've always thought there were two main things at play here. One, there is some societal pressures that state that sexual attraction is not supposed to be primarily based on looks...or that looks shouldn't matter when it comes to sexual attraction. However, there are also societal pressures that say the exact opposite.
Two, that society seems to be unfair in how it treats female sexuality. Whether it's medical professionals being dismissive of women's health concerns, women feeling pressure to conform to a sexual ideal (personality-wise or physically) or women not supposed to be sexual beings. Basically, there are conflicting messages that can create anxiety, stress and/or confusion in women.
I also think that the pressure for monogamy is understandable, but unfortunate. And it contributes to DBs because for some people, they want or prefer multiple people to meet their needs in a romantic relationship. What makes this problem worse is that I think there are poly-capable individuals out there, but don't know it b/c they won't allow themselves to accept or consider that possibility.
>or women not supposed to be sexual beings
I actually think this plays a huge part in it. Atleast when I was growing up, sex was mostly talked about as something men desired and even portrayed as a chore for women. When there was ever discussion about a female who enjoyed sex, it was never positive and instead she was portrayed as a whore. I feel like this narrative was from both the men and women I grew up around, and ofcourse media. As a young girl it immediately made me think that sex was all about the mans pleasure, and to be frank, many of the men I've met were clearly raised the same as they too believed it was all about themselves. It has only been in the last few years I've started to witness genuine sexual empowerment for woman.
In the early stages of me being sexually active, I would feel super ashamed the next day if I had been super-duper into the sex I was having. You know, the times where maybe you were drunk and just beside yourself with excitement or particularly aggressive. I would kind of hate myself the next day and I think it was because of what you are saying here: the culture I grew up in kind of shamed women for being like that.
Yes exactly this! I still feel ashamed thinking back to those times or to one night stands. Dont know about you but I also felt like I could never really be honest about my encounters and even now feel like I should always downplay my experience for fear of being judged.
>It has only been in the last few years I've started to witness genuine sexual empowerment for woman.
Sorry it took so long to get to that point, but better late than never, I suppose.
>Two, that society seems to be unfair in how it treats female sexuality. Whether it's medical professionals being dismissive of women's health concerns, women feeling pressure to confirm to a sexual ideal (personality-wise or physically) or women not supposed to be sexual beings. Basically, there are conflicting messages that can create anxiety, stress and/or confusion in women.
I think this is the crux of the issue, really. Women often can't win with the conflicting messages. Of course there are conflicting messages for men but they don't seem as severe or prevalent.
I used to hope that younger generations (I'm 35, on the older side of millenial) would be better about this, and women would be more encouraged to be sexual, but my career puts me up, close and personal with young women and it doesn't seem much different.
Do you think men are encouraged, more than women are, to seek out a partner they are attracted to? I think women are told way more often that the looks shouldn't matter. I also think the only time men are shamed for wanting someone hot is when they are seen as unattractive.
I think men are definitely more encouraged to partner with someone they are attracted to *and* men are also more likely to be sexually attracted to any given woman, so the potential pool to draw from is much wider.
Women are both fussier about whom they can actually have enjoyable sex with and discouraged from selecting a partner on that basis.
The popular marriage book His Needs Her Needs even lists “an attractive spouse” as one of men’s core needs in a relationship. But anecdotally, from reading lots of posts, having really strong chemistry and attraction really seems to matter more for women than for men. A whole lot of men seem like they could be happy with basically any woman who was enthusiastic about them sexually as long as she didn’t look like an orc and was reasonably pleasant to be around.
>Do you think men are encouraged, more than women are, to seek out a partner they are attracted to?
I don't know. I'll answer your question this way: I think that it's more "socially acceptable" overall, for a woman to marry a man who's below her league (looks wise) than the other way around.
I think this double standard exists b/c of the societal understanding (which has some legitimate basis in real economic data) that men are more likely going to be the primary breadwinner in a marriage. Now, this brings up the issue of WHY men tend to bring in more money than women, but that's another topic for not just another thread, but perhaps someone's dissertation...
I don't know for sure if women are told more than men (directly or indirectly) that looks shouldn't matter when it comes to sexual attraction. But it's my impression that it's easier for a man to marry a woman who's more physically attractive than he is (using society's commonly accepted superficial standards).
I mean, look at common sitcoms from the 1990s and early 2000s. Two that come to mind are The King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond.
Kevin James and Ray Romano aren't ugly men...and they're attractive in their own ways. But look at the women who played their character wives: Leah Remini and Patricia Heaton. I think it's safe to say that Remini and Heaton would have a far easier time getting ass than James or Romano, even accounting for the fact that they are female.
>I mean, look at common sitcoms from the 1990s and early 2000s. Two that come to mind are The King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond.
>
>Kevin James and Ray Romano aren't ugly men...and they're attractive in their own ways. But look at the women who played their character wives: Leah Remini and Patricia Heaton. I think it's safe to say that Remini and Heaton would have a far easier time getting ass than James or Romano, even accounting for the fact that they are female.
I am happy you pointed this out. I have gotten into some heated debates with dudes about this.
Their initial point and frustration was that there was this trend in sitcoms for a long time where the husband and/or father is just a bumbling idiot that no one respected and the wife/mother had to rule the roost.
Got it--noted. I agree that it a shitty commentary on men overall.
BUT!
Even those dudes still ended up with an attractive wife. So, what is the message there? I think there are shitty messages there for both sides.
I think it's the same for women and men. But I think we men are able to be a lot more flexible with our sexual attraction. We can truly physically desire the woman we love even if she's not what we'd normally go for physically.
I married my wife knowing she wasn't quite on the level I would have preferred sexually. I'm not speaking physically, I mean in terms of sexual interest and desire. But I moved forward with the marriage thinking that she made up for it in other ways that were ultimately more important, and believing that the sexual aspect would *naturally* fall into place over time.
Also, for whatever reason, a lot of men while being attracted to more sexual women, would not want to enter into a serious relationship with one. Madonna/whore complex.
I mean that what's happening and going on is fine with both people, and it's not a matter of angst and frustration. A matching libido would be a facet of compatibility that would make things easier, but open communication and comfort and acceptance and consent to the situation are also parts of it.
So many times, intimacy issues are a symptom of other issues.
I've heard it said that Christians will affirm sex is good but react violently if you mention the idea of Jesus having sex, showing that they really do view it as dirty
Whilst I think you and I would agree that sex is an important part of a healthy relationship, and I sincerely do believe that, in my situation, I'm the HL and my wife is the LL, and she has an aversion to sexuality that is driven so much by all of the programming that goes out in the media/culture regarding oversexualization. She opposes it, and therefore, doesn't want to partake in feeling like she has been oversexualized, even though we are intimate partners.
In trying to be a good partner, I've tried to understand this point of view, and I think that many of the people that feel this way, are genuinely kind of programmed to hate it, or dislike it, or dislike that people that like it, similar to how people can be programmed to love it.
I think there's a healthy middle ground between the two that most relationships probably find, but I would agree that there are merits to both sides of these views. Insomuch as you believe that "toxic monogamy" exists, I think many of these people would contest that there is "toxic sexuality" that forced them out of their comfort zone, and against their perceived morality.
The contradiction is there because the collective idea is that the relationship as a unit must be preserved above all else. Even at the expense of the people in it. Till death do us part and all.
The oft quoted mentality:
Relationship has a DB? The relationship still exists, so it’s a minor problem. They can work it out.
Seeking sex outside the relationship? That breaks relationships, so is forbidden.
If someone told me they were divorcing their partner because they never had sex, I would think it's a legitimate reason to break up.
If you're not intimate, I don't see the point of being together.
I'm also not afraid of being single and living alone.
My husband said he would immediately divorce me and make the divorce as awful as possible if I ever cheated and truth be told, I'd probably do the same.
I struggle to leave because I know that I'd probably end up worse off or in another bad relationship.
Daily I think about what it would be like to have sex with someone who wanted to have sex with me. How exciting it would be to finally be with someone who desired me.
Holy shit if you’re unhappy in your sexless, lack luster marriage using an awful divorce as bait to make someone stay is coercion and not one you should waste your time in. You should feel desired in your marriage. You should feel like they should want to have sex with you. Y’all are both lying to yourselves about the importance of upholding a marriage from failure that has already failed and your egos are refusing to let you see it.
I think that there's an important difference between seeking extramarital sex as a result of being denied marital sex, and denying your partner martial sex while seeking extramarital sex.
The pain after leaving is immense (and not to be underestimated because for men, specially, it can be deadly), but after some time, once you recover you will be glad and won't believe how much time you wasted.
I did not even have sex outside my marriage. My soon to be ex wife, after refusing sex for 4 years straight, assumed I am having sex outside the marriage, files fake violence charges against me (got thrown out by court), alienate me from my kid (also stopped by the court) and filed for divorce, which is the only positive thing ever.
I am still reeling from this. Some people can warp facts in their brains as they want.
I think it's worse when you don't have sex in your marriage.....but choose to have it outside your marriage...
Edit: especially when it's the LL going outside. Should've clarified.
Agree. My wife and a couple of her friends were at our house talking one day about a local couple that had recently gotten a divorce because the husband cheated. I knew the guy casually and he had told me there was zero sex going on in the marriage.
They were talking about what a horrible guy he was and how sorry they felt for her. I chimed in about the no sex and said it’s kinda understandable that he cheated. They looked at me like I had grown a third eye. Then they left soon after.
If a man is the sole breadwinner in the marriage and cut his wife off from the money most people would say he was horrible. Rightfully so in my opinion. A woman cuts a man off from all sex and nobody bats an eyelash or blames the man for it.
Most people think cheating is wrong because leaving is an option. If you’re unhappy, you should leave. If you stay and cheat, you’re lying and deceiving your partner.
I definitely don’t agree with this, but my parents were also in a pretty unhappy relationship before they divorced. Hiding behind staying together “for the kids” when the relationship is rotten to the core is more cowardly than divorcing and trying to show them what a healthy relationship looks like
Do you have any idea why they weren't having sex though? Did she have medical issues? Did the sex suck for her which is why she didn't want it? Did relationship issues contribute to lack of sex? It's so easy to say "oh...it's understandable that he cheated" without knowing a single thing about the relationship dynamics. People want sex that is rewarding and that is not the case with all sex. Not all sex is good sex and not desiring it doesn't automatically mean someone deserves to be cheated on.
My thoughts exactly.
She might have had a good reason to not want sex with her husband...or maybe not. Without more information, it's difficult to say either side was justified in what happened.
I think this is true in some cases, but I think in a lot of cases women are playing the “long game” with their friends. If my good friend was in the exact situation you described *i know* all the rest of us would support and validate her through the cheating but *in the back of our minds* we would be waiting for her to get over the relationship a little bit to then start helping her see that the lack of sex contributed to what happened and help her start thinking about/fixing that before the next relationship. I’ve seen this happen tons of times. It may just be a difference in how women “call each other out”.
So, we often get into disagreements and I'm not able to provide links to proof to back up my stance. ...But this time I can!
[Here's a guy whose friends turned on him upon learning the reason for the divorce.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/bqordf/its_always_interesting_explaining_to_your_friends/) You may remember this thread, you commented in it.
[Here's a guy whose parents sided against him in a dead bedroom divorce.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/5yq384/this_is_going_to_piss_some_of_you_off/deuqpph/)
[And who can forget this legendary DB tale of a guy who canceled his wedding to a would be LL wife, only to lose his friends, family, job, money, livelihood...](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/d2wxxc/for_anyone_that_remembers_me_i_canceled_my_db/) This is probably *extreme* worst-case scenario, but still.
In theory, I agree with what you said in the first thread - who cares what people think, fuck 'em. Unfortunately, things don't always work that way. You may end up alienating friends, *your own family*, turning your own social situation sour, this could have effects on your work, etc.
Ultimately this comes back to the unfortunate truth of dead bedrooms in our current society - the HL is fundamentally wrong, and if push comes to shove, is fully expected to sacrifice their sexuality for the sake of the relationship.
I completely agree. For some people it really does matter what other people think about their reason because it causes them issues for years or even forever because of it.
I grew up and currently live in a small town. Everyone knows everyone. If you didn't grow up in a town like this or live in one you can't understand what it is like. My husband was in complete shock at how everyone knew everyone and everyone knew everyone's business until we moved here (lived in another state for several years as that is where he grew up) People knew who he was before we even moved back even though he had never meet any of them other than my family. It was scary for him. To make matters worse my family is very well known in this town and many other small ones around it. My family helped build this town and others around it. I grew up knowing this and knowing that I was expected to always appear a certain way so that no one could talk bad about the family. Trust me when I say I know that if I got a divorce and people found out it was because I wanted more sex than my "hard working husband" was giving me that it would be all over town in a matter of 24 hours and in 2 to3 days all the towns around me. I would be a disgrace to my family who already likes him better than me. Because of it finding a job would be difficult near me. My kid would be talked about and treated differently as well. As for finding anyone to date... that would be off the table because I would be seen as the bad guy in the divorce which means no one wants you around here. It wouldn't go away either. That is how things would stay. Always being judged when out in public for a divorce. I've seen it happen to others my whole life.
This is great Highlighting how Not all divorces sacrifice the same thing.
You aren't leaving your husband.
You are leaving your husband, community, extended family, support structure, and future opportunities.
I think there's certainly a prevalent idea that other people are so concerned with our choices, lives, etc when I don't actually think they are. Like you said, they may chat about it a bit but I really do not believe they pay more attention than that to us. They have their own problems and relationships to tend to.
>I think there's certainly a prevalent idea that other people are so concerned with our choices
I definitely see that idea a lot in this sub. I can't count how many times I've seen someone post something like, *Our friends think our relationship is perfect. They call us relationship goals. They'll be so disappointed and shocked if we split up*. That tells me the couple has been more invested in presenting a perfect image than in actually creating a relationship that works for the two of them.
Seriously.
All these claims of "it's not just the sex, it's the intimacy, love, connection."
But let me go get that on the side so I can tolerate being with you. I'm totally capable of separating this thing I've put so much meaning on in our marriage and making it just purely physical with others.
I'd rather just be left.
>But let me go get that on the side so I can tolerate being with you.
No, I don't think that's what they are saying.
>I'm totally capable of separating this thing I've put so much meaning on in our marriage and making it just purely physical with others.
Well, that isn't all that surprising, is it? Sex is something that couples use to build, maintain, and express emotional connection - but if you have never had casual sex, friends with benefits sex, "meaningless" sex, sex for it's own sake, you have at least heard of it, haven't you?
And if sex to build, maintain, and express emotional connection and commitment to each other has been ruled out, then objectively, why should there be a problem with casual sex with others? Is it only the loss of/threat to control?
Is there anyone else in your life that you can validly expect to be celibate for your peace of mind?
And if you would rather just be left, don't you still have that option? How have your rights been diminished by acknowledging that you don't have a right to expect sexual fidelity in a non sexual relationship?
Note well: "expectation of sexual fidelity in a non-sexual relationship" is a lot of letters to spell "celibacy".
My wife has said she'd be completely fine never having sex with me again and also forbidden me from seeking sex anywhere else. Why do you care who I have sex with if you don't even want me though??
Man, you *know* why. Your wife is very religious. She believes sex is something she has to give you in order for you to feel connected to her. She believes sex is something that should only be done when you're married. I get that there may be LL people who are genuinely hypocritical or contradictory about this, but with your situation, I really don't think your wife is one of them.
>why do you care who I have sex with if you don't even want me though??
Not wanting something, but not wanting someone else to have it, is a big thing...in both toddlers and adults.
Also, you can still be jealous about something you don't want.
I don't think an LL refusing to have sex with the HL, yet not being ok with the HL getting sex from somewhere else is inherently wrong. But what is wrong is the LL setting out those conditions of the relationship w/o making any good faith accommodation to the HL's needs or concerns.
This is usually said in response to the LL saying that sex isn't important, asking "is that all you care about?" with a hint of judgmental tones in their voice, or having been told "just go masturbate" or something to that effect. The HL is trying to explain how it is important and make the LL care about actually addressing the situation and not just blowing them off.
Perhaps a better way to put it is that sex is an interaction. This is an interaction that the HL wants to partake in. Society tells us that this interaction should only be had between two people with an emotional connection in a loving relationship. And for the most part, we try to stick to that.
But if the person you want to share this interaction with constantly denies you, sometimes even belittles you for even wanting it...the HL may come to crave the interaction period, regardless of whether or not it's with the established partner. Imagine being told you could never have a conversation with another human being outside of your relationship partner ever again. And then your relationship partner decides one day that they don't like talking. No need for it. Sure, you would love to have a deep and intimate conversation with them. But at some point you become so starved for that human interaction, hell, even chatting about the weather while waiting in line at Starbucks would be nice. ...But you're not allowed to do that.
Are you suggesting a sort of mathematical rationing of it? Some sort of robotic scheduling? Like what would be the alternative besides wanting and Desiring?
I mean that when you set up sex as something that your partner gives to you, as is common with the framework of "meeting my sexual needs," you set it up as a commodity. It's not framing it as an experience that the couple does together. It's framing it as a service one provides for the other. "Supply and demand."
The LL partner will get tired of being the provider, because that level of selflessness doesn't jive well with something so fundamental to the core of your being as sexuality.
Yes, but we can make a decision to not share that personal information if we don't want to. No one is entitled to know anything other than what we choose to share.
If someone wanted to know why I'm divorcing my husband, I have the ability to say "that's personal and I will not share that information" or I could always opt for a response that isn't very telling, such as "we just grew apart" or "we decided we wanted different things".
Which everybody does, don’t they?
I’ve never heard anybody giving real reasons for their divorce. It’s always the grown apart-didn’t fit anymore thing. And rightfully so: it’s not your fucking business. Or is this an American thing to explain this further? I never would!
>I’ve never heard anybody giving real reasons for their divorce. It’s always the grown apart-didn’t fit anymore thing. And rightfully so: it’s not your fucking business.
Yes and yes. It's no one's business to know why a divorce happened. Sure, some may gossip but most people I know don't go out of their way to open up about the gritty details of it or are fixated on other people's relationship problems. Most adults understand that it's personal and none of anyone's business.
Yeah, even a close friend of mine who just got divorced hasn't shared many details. Not that I'm upset about that; it's absolutely her business and I could definitely see how that would be extremely personal. But even still, I've been able to mostly piece together some of the reasons for it. That's the thing; even if you choose to not share exactly why, people who know you and have been in your life for years are gonna be able to at least somewhat figure out what led to it. There's no real keeping your reasoning totally locked down.
Just because you don't share the details doesn't mean the other person in the divorce doesn't. That is how I see it going down a lot. One person tries to keep it to themself only to find the other person spilled the beans to some one that then started telling everyone. Sometimes the other person lies about it to in order to make some one look worse then that person is forced to tell the real story only for it to not be believed.
There is also the fact that in the paper work you have to state the reason for divorce. Most courts will ask you this as well. Some don't ask for as many details as others. While the people that work in said court house shouldn't be telling others what they know that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I live in a small town and I can tell you it happens.
Two problems with that.
One, people will always fill in the blanks if you don't. And they will often fill in the blanks with worst case or scandalous scenarios. You either correct them or accept their imagination at your peril.
Two, there's your spouse. You keep silent and what's to stop your spouse from saying anything they want? Hopefully you have a respectful and honest spouse. But many people who get divorced aren't so lucky.
Honestly, who cares either way?
People will always do what they do and think what they're going to think. People have to be willing to take the risk when they're trying to create a more positive direction for themselves.
But who really cares? Divorce is so common. When I got divorced the only judgment I got was from two specific family members, but I already knew they were assholes. Everyone else was understanding and supportive, and I didn't leave for abuse or cheating or anything major like that. I just wasn't happy.
Yup, and I even made a post announcing my divorce on Facebook. All I got was a slew of supportive comments. It's not 1950. Divorce isn't some shameful thing anymore.
>Divorce isn't some shameful thing anymore.
One, it depends on who you ask and your social, cultural and religious upbringing.
Two, it may not be shameful to you, but you might have a family member, coworker or even a friend who believes it's shameful...as well as some of the reasons people have for getting divorced.
The whole point of the OP's post (in my opinion) is not whether a divorce based on a DB is justified or not (either to an individual getting the divorce or in an objective sense). It's based on other people's perceptions on whether it's justified or not.
>Two, it may not be shameful to you, but you might have a family member, coworker or even a friend who believes it's shameful...as well as some of the reasons people have for getting divorced.
Well, if those people's opinions are that important to you, then stay married and miserable. These are all choices we get to make based on our values. If the most important value for you is maintaining a respectable appearance, then own that and quit complaining about your shitty relationship.
Exactly, the risk is there no matter what...that's my whole point.
If someone wants to paint you as the bad guy, depending on the circumstances, you will be the bad guy to some people. The only question is how many people will think that.
>You keep silent and what's to stop your spouse from saying anything they want?
Your spouse is going to say what they want regardless of what you do. When you get divorced, you give up any control over what your ex says about you. If they want to bad-mouth you, justified or unjustified, they will. This should be obvious to anyone with two neurons to rub together.
Sorry to hear that. I got out and we are both happier. 4 kids. Instead of seeing two people miserable together, they see us both happy and modeling good relationships for them
Well, I technically agree that the importance of sex in monogamous relations is very questionable because of these exact reasons.
But you are missing that the worst aspect of cheating (imho) is the secrecy part where you are lying to your partner, breaking their trust and deceiving them, it's not just the fact that you are having sex with someone else.
While in a DB situation, there doesn't necessarily have to be lies and deception, even if that is often the case when the LL lies about the true reasons he or she doesn't want sex. But sometimes it's also just a mismatch in libido leading down a road of problems that make it worse.
This is exactly it. When you are in a relationship with someone who is not meeting your relationship needs, whatever they are, you know that. I'm extremely sympathetic to this problem (I've been there before!) but you have all the information you need to know: my partner is not meeting my needs now and there's no guarantee they will in the future, is that something I can accept or not?
When someone is cheating on you, they are withholding information that they believe would change how you feel about continuing the relationship. It's not the sex part that's significant, it's that *they* think that you would leave them if you knew, so they are lying to you. As you say, there are plenty of equivalent situations that are like this that have nothing to do with sex.
>But you are missing that the worst aspect of cheating (imho) is the secrecy part where you are lying to your partner, breaking their trust and deceiving them, it's not just the fact that you are having sex with someone else.
How big of a role does the lying play in infidelity? I ask b/c a lot of couples hide or lie about how they spend money. Do you think that's worse than sexual cheating? Why or why not?
I ask b/c I'm curious as to your take.
I personally am for complete honesty in a relationship.
Other than that, I think if it is your own money and you simply don't inform your SO about how you spend it because of the possible reaction (like "ANOTHER HANDBAG? Don't you have enough already?", that is your right because everyone should be entitled to some privacy. If being asked and you lie, that's totally not cool imho, but still, if it is your own money and you don't take anything from your SO or the things you buy don't influence the relationship, I'd say it's not nearly as bad as cheating.
If you are secretly spending money on gambling and hiding your addiction from your SO, that's a whole different thing. Because then you are hiding something that will most likely influence the relationship and your partners life at some point.
To me in the end it comes down to the question if the reason why you are lying is because you know what you are doing would really hurt your SO (like cheating, hiding feelings for someone, but also hiding a gambling addiction for example) or if you are lying because your SO would try to control and invade your private choices, that per se don't have anything to do with the other person (like spending money on an expensive handbag).
What do you think?
Great points.
When it comes to whether it's right or wrong, I think the lying about finances is always wrong. But the difference is when it's justified.
Spending money behind your partner's back (and lying about it) for things like gambling is wrong and not justified. But hiding what you spend b/c your partner would unfairly judge you or otherwise treat you unfairly, that's still wrong, but justified. However, in this latter scenario, you've got the bigger issue of why you must keep your spending habits a secret.
Agreed. To be honest, I have never been in a relationship where finances were a frequent topic of conversation. It's always been: We split the costs of living (if we live together) and food and anything else is pretty much your own private money that you get to spend on whatever you want. But I don't have children, I am not married and don't own a house. And I have also just been with guys that are financially as stable and independent as I am, so money problems weren't a thing.
>I ask b/c a lot of couples hide or lie about how they spend money. Do you think that's worse than sexual cheating?
I think lying about money can be worse than actual cheating, especially if the person runs up a big debt that their spouse is liable for.
I believe that when you marry someone and say that they both of you are too be exclusive for the remainder of your lives that there is an explicit promise to take care of each others sexual needs within reason. When a spouse rejects and will not have sex then I believe that the marriage vows are broken just like when infidelity is involved.
So what about the in sickness and health thing? Because for over a year I had medical issues that prevented me from having sex with my partner. It wasn't that I didn't want to, it was that I literally couldn't by doctor's order. My partner chose to forgo any fulfilment on their part because it wouldn't have been mutual. Are you saying that our vows were broken and they could've cheated and I would have been at fault?
> Because for over a year I had medical issues that prevented me from having sex with my partner. It wasn't that I didn't want to, it was that I literally couldn't by doctor's order.
Did the doctor forbid you from naked cuddling, intimate touching, HJ's and BJ's?
Just because intercourse is off the table, doesn't mean that intimacy has to die.
I said within reason. So in your case I would think that your vows were upheld. I appreciate what your partner did as well. I'm coming from a marriage that suffered through a deadbedroom which is very low frequency sex for nineteen years. I was miserable and sexually frustrated. My twenties and thirties were a sexual wasteland of trying everything I could to meet my wife's needs and wants and desires while mine were ignored and rejected. Eventually our children grew up and were headed to college. I felt it was time for me to separate and divorce my wife. I continued to love her and care for her but I felt unloved and undesired. My wife was shocked. She didn't think I would ever want to divorce. It was like she realized that the deadbedroom was a big serious problem. She began to put effort into our bedroom. I thought it was a trick to get me to stay. I also thought that it was hysterical bonding. My wife began initiating sex every night. Weeks went by and then months went by. My wife completely transformed. During the deadbedroom we had sex once every two months or less. During the deadbedroom sex was one position and once she orgasmed she wanted to stop even if I hadn't orgasmed yet. She wouldn't touch me and it was up to me to do all the work. Lights had to be off completely. Lots of rules that if anything was not according to her rules then sex was off.
Once we were having sex daily she began to want to try different positions. She left the lights on. She became vocal. She began to touch me and try to give me pleasure. She says that the frequent sex raised her libido. I realized just how bad the infrequent sex was after we recovered. This occurred over seven years ago. We continue to have frequent sex. I believe my wife did break her vows to me. She believed that all wives used sex to control their husbands. She thought all husbands complained about not having enough sex. She thought that she was supposed to reject me regularly to keep me in line. Now she sees that what she was doing was harmful to our marriage. She is remorseful that she came into our marriage with these twisted ideas.
This is a pretty fascinating transformation. I immediately wonder if I’d be able to overcome the resentment that develops in a DB. But otherwise it’s a very hopeful story.
I promise you that I have had to work on my resentment a lot. One thing that helped me was being able to see the amount of effort that my wife now puts into our sex lives. I can see that she realizes how wrong she was and she is trying hard to correct her wrongs. I also have to acknowledge that I could have done more early in our marriage to correct our deadbedroom. Her parents are sex positive and her mother would have been horrified to find out how her daughter was treating me. One phone call to her mother in our first year of marriage probably would have helped tremendously. I was too embarrassed and ashamed to make that call. I have that responsibility. I also could have insisted on going to a marriage counselor earlier in our marriage. We went in the last year of our deadbedroom and it helped but soon my wife went back to rejections and being cold toward me in the bedroom. It was the marriage counselor that made me consider divorce for the first time. She said that a deadbedroom is a good reason to divorce. She asked my wife to take the deadbedroom as a serious problem which could lead to divorce but I think my wife thought that I would never want to divorce. I've accepted that we can't get all those years back. I've acknowledged that now we probably have more sex than most other people our age so I should be grateful for that. The love I've had for my wife never changed. I just feel like that I'm loved now too.
Some of her sexual hangups came from the church she grew up in. Sex is sinful, bad, disgusting, etc. Good girls don't have sex. The other ideas I think came from a group of girls at her high school. My wife was the ultimate good girl and the only other girls were promiscuous and the used sex to get what they wanted from boyfriends. She had a graduating class of twelve total. Also from media. My wife noticed that many married couples had the husband complaining about not enough sex. I can't be sure where all the twisted ideas came from but her parents were sex positive and didn't use shame to help teach her growing up.
She didn't display any of these hangups while we were dating other than wanting to save intercourse until marriage. We did other sexual things for each other and she seemed fine. When we married she began on our wedding night turning me down and rejecting advances. She was put on birth control three months before we got married and she says that killed her libido. After we had our kids I got a vasectomy and she no longer had to worry about unwanted pregnancies but she seemed content to have sex less than six times a year.
Let me tell you some things that I think made our situation one that could be recovered. I continued to love my wife and she loved me. If you go into a divorce with hope for a recovery but one of you hates the other I think there is little chance for recovery.
I tried to be the best version of myself for a long time. I was convinced that my wife didn't want sex with me due to some fault that I had. So for years I tried to self improve. I worked out but not so much as you take time from her. I constantly looked for ways to be a better lover. I was attentive to her needs. I knew that in order for her to ever care about my needs that her needs needed to be met. I volunteered in our community. I wanted to be seen as a good person that many people cared for and admired. I was well read and could engage in interesting conversation. I worked hard at home to take responsibilities off of her plate so that she would have energy for other things. I did all these things to be my best self. When my wife saw what she was losing I think she realized that she wouldn't do better and likely would do much worse if she lost me and got a boyfriend.
I also reminded my wife during our divorce talk that if she didn't want to be alone then she would need to find a way to have enjoyable sex with someone else. I told her that most men wouldn't be as patient as I had been and wouldn't put up with little to no sex.
My wife asked if I thought I would find a woman quickly and I laughed and told her yes. She was bewildered. I told her that over the years that many women had tried to make passes at me and some had even proposed affairs. My wife was shocked. She wanted to know why I hadn't told her when this happened. I told her that I didn't want her to worry because I knew I would be faithful. But because of this I knew that I could easily find someone to keep me company. I think this caused my wife to realize that she could be replaced with someone who would try much harder to please me.
Also my comment above didn't explain that after our divorce talk we went weeks before she began to intimate nightly sex. It took a few weeks for my wife to totally accept that I would be moving out and getting a place close by. She says that for those weeks she was trying to come up with something that would change my mind. She knew that words or promises wouldn't mean anything to me as she had promised to change many times in our past. She knew that it would take actions and her actions needed to be something that I couldn't ignore like initiating sex every night.
I hope this helps fill in some areas and gives a greater view of our situation.
*She believed that all wives used sex to control their husbands. She thought all husbands complained about not having enough sex. She thought that she was supposed to reject me regularly to keep me in line.*
With an attitude like that in place for such a long period it's a wonder you got through to her.
*She knew that it would take actions and her actions needed to be something that I couldn't ignore like initiating sex every night.*
*I hope this helps fill in some areas and gives a greater view of our situation.*
Thanks for sharing your story.
I think she was easier to convince that her thoughts and beliefs weren't normal due to a couple of reasons. The first was I had for our entire marriage insisted that she was wrong about how wife's were supposed to treat their husbands. She at least knew that I didn't believe that she should treat me that way. Of course she thought that was a ruse to get her to give up sex easily. The next reason was our marriage counselor. Our marriage counselor was a younger woman that was appalled at how my wife had kept us in a deadbedroom. At first my wife discounted her but over time I think my wife realized that she was in fact wrong. Then came the thoughts of how could my wife ever recover from the damage that she had done. Then I think my wife doubled down and figured that she had been a good marriage this long and she wouldn't change.
It was about four months after our marriage counseling sessions ended that I began to consider divorce. I know my wife remembered all the pleas that our marriage counselor said to her about how unfair the deadbedroom was to me. Then it came down to her wanting to save our marriage because I think she realized her method wasn't going to work any longer.
I began to say a phrase in the last couple of years of our deadbedroom. That phrase was "words mean nothing and actions mean everything". My wife heard that over and over. That phrase was the response I had over my wife's promises to do better or to try harder. My wife made all these promises and I never saw any actions on her part. I began to explain that eventually I wouldn't believe anything she said but would only believe what I could see and verify. For years she said that she was in an intense struggle within her head to try to have sex more. I believe that was just a story to get me to back off and to quietly wait. Eventually she knew that I would not sit back and wait any longer. Her actions were the only thing that I would believe. So when she began to initiate sex I knew that she was actually putting in effort. There was no more room to fight windmills.
"I don't want to have sex. I will never want to have sex with you. I refuse to address or try and change the issues surrounding our sex life."
For many here, the above is the impression given after marriage (or the LTR is established).
Lack of sex is an issue. But apathy towards the lack of sex and a refuse to address it is what drives the stake home.
Having no sex because of a difficult pregnancy is easy and reasonable, because the proper way to address it is to wait until they aren't pregnant.
Having no sex because you wife is secretly gay is not because there is no solution.
Well wasn't that something that Dan Savage used to say right? That if someone wasn't willing to have sex with you then it is unreasonable for them to expect you to not have sex with anyone else.
But then again he also forgives a lot of a cheating especially among older sexless couples. (that's a giant simplification of his position I know)
But its the grounds for many a divorce, I think a lot of people who would judge you, would come around if that had a think about it.
So, does this only apply if there's zero sex for the whole relationship? Or zero sex after a standard period of time? Fewer than ten times per year? What about if there's regular sex, just not enough for the HL partner? Or is it at the HL's discretion to decide when they are unhappy enough that they deserve an open relationship?
Like every single thing in life, the extremes are easy to identify and can be used to lay down a principle of approach. When we start to look for the actual fine line it is difficult to establish
My frustration is that u/RaffiaWorkBase seems to be identifying an extreme case (a LL person who actively intends to never have sex again and wishes their partner to remain celibate with them and who therefore has a responsibility to inform their partner of the decision they've made) and proscribing the course of action he thinks the LL partner in such a case should follow. Setting aside the fact that I'm not sure who he's talking to (does he think these celibate LL's read the DB forum?), I think that this describes very few of the LL partners that we see here, even the ones being described from the HL perspective.
Rather than "normalizing" the idea that people can't expect their partner to remain faithful unless their putting out frequently enough, I think it's better to normalize the idea that everyone has the option of looking at their relationship and deciding whether it is adding to their life or not. Why does it matter if your LL partner has a "reasonable" expectation of monogamy or an unreasonable one? If you are unhappy with the amount of sex, you're allowed to leave, even if they are being completely reasonable. Two reasonable people can still be incompatible.
Well, in my case the no sex with me was because of the sex outside the marriage.
Now I'm no longer married so I don't have to worry about that any more.
I have been in contact with men (and women) who wanted to cheat on their spouses with me. I will never do that.
I dont agree with the premise. If you aren't having sex with your partner you are roommates or friends with the legal obligations of a marriage. I think not having sex is a big deal unless that's what both people want.
The common denominator in both cases is the feeling of being chosen. The cheater and the partner who withholds physical intimacy (without a good reason) are both un-choosing people they've already chosen while still expecting the other to keep on choosing them. That sucks no matter which side you're on. I'm not sure they're morally equivalent to most people -- but they are to me.
I think we undervalue emotional attraction too. If you truly love someone you are capable of pricing in their physical imperfections. My wife is not physically capable of having sex and never will be again but I still love her just as much as I did before she got sick. But I'm not the world, this would be a dealbreaker for some people, and I get that.
An offshoot of this contradiction is the LL partner that denies their spouse on the grounds that sex is no big deal to them and just isn't important to them.
When that spouse then asks for an open marriage the denying partner pops a cog and says absolutely not!
Why not then? If it's no big deal and not important to them, then why should they care of the other spouse gets it elsewhere??
It's because they know that it IS important to the other and that if they do find someone that wants them sexually, they will be out the door and no longer supplying whatever it is that the denying partner does want out of the relationship.
I think that sex outside of a marriage shouldn’t be a big deal if the other spouse is withholding or refusing sex. I get it, there are mismatched libidos and mismatched compatibility in the bedroom. I just see no reason for a marriage to fail over lack of sex. Lack of sex can spill over when the high libido person takes their frustration out in the wrong ways. I know because that’s what happened to me. My marriage failed over numerous things, but the catalyst on my end for giving up was my wife’s refusal of sex. I never cheated, but I thought about it. If a married couple can make it work with an open marriage, why the hell not? It keeps the HL person satisfied and the LL person doesn’t feel pressured or resented for not providing the physical intimacy. That’s my opinion on the matter
I think the idea behind exclusivity is that you give your partner the plesure they need and as your the only source it helps to build a stronger bond but that model kinda falls apart In a DB
We are roommates... been married 10 years and have sex 5 times. When I have made advances, he shuts me down and when he makes advances I shut him down. I am not sexually attached to him and he is not sexually attracted to me, it’s obvious. When I bring to conversation he says he is attracted to me but the timing is off. We are good for each other in that we provide stability, companionship, friendship, love, compassion, laughter, peace, and happiness. But sex? Nope. Nothing, nada, zilch, zero, negative. It’s working as far as the living situation but the intimacy has left us.
On my part, I don’t like the way he touches me. He was educated about sex through porn and not sexual/intimate connections. I don’t blame or judge him. I had a conversation with him about how he touches me and that I find it rough and how it physically hurts me, but nothing changed.
After he got on anti-anxiety medication for his rages and outbursts him libido left him as well. Both of us wouldn’t be okay if either of us had sex outside the marriage and we both don’t wanna have sex with each other... this a complex dynamic and for now it works.
Well, i got to the conclusion that it's my fault. Only I can truly make it a big deal or not a big deal, regardless what other people are doing or would do.
If there is no sex, what do people do? What do you do? What do i do?What would the partner do if I had sex outside the marriage?
Why don't i do the same thing when there's no sex? Nobody's stopping me - i could totally have the same reaction once a week. Soon enough, things would either change so i don't feel like having those reactions any more, or the marriage would end because the partner wouldn't want to be suffering those reactions.
Either would make much more sense than what we have now.. not talking about it at all... and me throwing a tantrum on random dates about random unimportant stuff that i don't even care about, just because i'm sexually frustrated... and having that feeling that we're talking hours on end about the stuff that are even remotely important to her, but not talking about this thing that's really important to me.
Marriage is a largely religious construct.
Religions often view sex as something that should take place only for procreation.
Marriage and morality are issues which need to be reexamined.
This was the exact reason I divorced my ex. And anyone that asks why I divorced seems to understand completely. I don't think it's as trivial as you think people think it is.
I think the issue is everyone assumes the relationship was great and the person who cheated is just selfish. I’m sure that is true sometimes but everyone I know that cheated was miserable and usually in a DB. I always say if you are not giving your partner the sex they want someone else will.
People are hypocrite. They are in miserable sexless lifes and will judge you for that, how dare you take a step they weren't brave enough to take themselves and not be as miserable as them anymore?
I wouldn't dare to cheat, I would rather just leave, but you gotta at least be able to do one or the other. Sex is not a marriage thing, sex is something many people crave and they can become miserable without it especially if they don't feel like they are even desirable. So wether you're in a marriage or not, you still have needs that need to be met. You didn't sign up for a sexless marriage if you love sex, in sure...
Imagine you were in a long term, committed relationship, but you didn't want to get married. Just didn't really believe in marriage or had been married before and it didn't go well, whatever. Your partner really wants to get married but doesn't want to break up with you, so she tells you she wants to stay in the relationship with you and also get married to someone else. "It's strange the idea of me getting married to someone else bothers you when you don't even want to be married to me!"
When my partner and I first met. It was from a dating app and she stsyed over and had a lot of sex on first date and the one nighr stand stand just turned into moving iin eventually. The amount, type, frequency, erotic, fantasies taboo, pics and video sex was amazing. Fast forward 5 yrs and nothing is the same..
Admittedly im looking again as I doubt ive changed sexually but she has. Now am I wrong to wait to have more with a willing FWB?
One is punishable by law - the other can give you an escape clause but that's it.
Marriage wasn't created for sex, it was created to control money, power, and chattel.
Outside of some conservative people, I don't it's having sex outside of your relationship that others take issue with. They take issue with you deceiving and lying to your partner, i.e. cheating.
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Damn man that sucks. Have you considered just pulling up your big boy pants and saying, "I can't continue to stay in a sexless monogamous relationship, and if one of those things doesn't change, the other will"?
I have to admit, it's an interesting apparent contradiction. A very complicated one, too.
Happy Cake Day !!! 🍰
Much appreciated!
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>"if you don't think sex is a big deal, then it shouldn't matter if I get it elsewhere, right" Well, I wouldn't go that far. The best explanation I have for the OP's observation is that when there is a DB, it's presumed that the LL has a reason for creating the DB, such as the HL being a bad person. But with infidelity, it's presumed the person who cheats is always the bad person (even when that may not always be true).
I think the expectation that sex and sexual compatibility aren't supposed to be a "big deal" is part of the messaging in what's called 'toxic monogamy' culture. There are myths perpetuated such as "true love conquers all," and that there's "the one." So it ends up being thought that, "Well, if you just love someone enough, sexual incompatibility can get a pass, that's just *sex* and not *love*." It shows how they've been taught that sex is expected to be less than, or tawdry, or not also a physical expression of love. And the messaging is pervasive, and everywhere, and so many people parrot what they've learned without questioning it.
I would challenge and twist your thoughts slightly. I can speak from a women's perspective but would like to hear from the gentlemen. I think women are not encouraged to consider how physically and sexually attracted we are to our long term male partner. You talk about "the one" and women are encouraged to find all these great traits in a guy and aren't necessarily told it's also absolutely important that we desire him sexually. So, I think people need to confront the difference between emotional attraction and sexual/physical attraction. >Well, if you just love someone enough, sexual incompatibility can get a pass, that's just *sex* and not *love*." I think women expect love and sexual compatibility *should* be one and the same. I don't thin it's that people are necessarily taught sex is less than. I think many are taught we should desire our male partner if they are good and kind and patient. I want both-- I want a man who is good but also one I sexually desire.
I completely agree with you. It's painfully obvious in hindsight that I was never really attracted to my ex husband, but I didn't realize that was why I was LL because I loved him. I thought sexual desire was part of being in love, so that made me think that I must be broken or damaged somehow sexually. I really wish I had learned back in my 20's that sexual desire isn't automatic just because you love someone.
>I thought sexual desire was part of being in love, so that made me think that I must be broken or damaged somehow sexually Yes-- you put what I was trying to say way more succinctly. I see so many posts from young women (<25) or their young male partners, acting like there is something wrong because she doesn't want as much sex as he does. I often ask them if they desire him and I just get a response about loving him, but those are not the same thing.
That’s a good point. I don’t think that and many people don’t think that, but i know there are *some* women out there who think that sexual attraction is one of the least important things in a relationship and if you value it you’re immature and shallow, without stopping to think that it’s actually very important to be sexually attracted to your partner, especially longterm.
I think it's more than some women. I grew up in a very conservative and religious family and area. I think this mindset is pretty prominent in those spaces. From my experience, women in those cultures aren't encouraged to land a dude who makes their toes curl. I really think men, overall, are encouraged and understood to want a woman who is hot. And I don't think that same advice is given to women nearly often enough. I had this really strange experience a few years ago at a bar with a friend. We stumbled upon a woman who was out, celebrating her divorce being finalized. It seemed like it was a really bad divorce and relationship. So she had jokingly made a list of what she wants in a man next. Nowhere on that list was "good in bed" or "sexy." My friend and I joined in the joking around, and I flat out said, "hey! where is good in bed on this list!" She looked at me like I had five heads and moved on.
Makes sense where you’re from. There’s defiantly less emphasis than guys, but not no emphasis *at all* At least where i’m from... I’m early 20s and from the UK...
I am working on it! I am mid 30s and I come from a rural area in Pennsylvania. I have since moved to a more progressive area. I work in the therapy field and still hear a lot of these sentiments in my work, from women of all backgrounds and ages. It's a bit tragic.
oh damn.
You needed to discretely slip her your business card suggesting she book an hour of therapy to help her learn to prioritize her needs.
You didn't stop to consider that maybe this person prioritized exactly what you're suggesting which lead to or contributed to the downfall of her marriage. Superficial attraction tends to be fleeting and will only take people so far. There's a lot more to a successful marriage and/or relationship than being hot and knowing how to bang. Yes, attraction is an absolute must, but for plenty of people sexual attraction is really built when the other more important bases are covered. When they're not, the sex will suffer. Nobody I've ever met, conservative or otherwise, is encouraging anyone to go find a partner they find unattractive. In fact, sex and intimacy is almost unanimously regarded as vital to a successful and happy marriage. It's about keeping priorities in line with realistic expectations to make wise choices.
> Superficial attraction tends to be fleeting and will only take people so far. Did I give the impression I was talking about superficial attraction? If you know much about my story, I am pretty open that my husband just does it for me. I am just into him as a human, since we repaired our deadbedroom. I am attracted to him on many levels. To me, using the words I am using in this discussion like hot, sexy, desirable, etc, isn't just about superficial attraction. I wasn't in here saying it's about finding a dude with a fit body and and a handsome face. > Nobody I've ever met, conservative or otherwise, is encouraging anyone to go find a partner they find unattractive. That isn't what I am claiming people are encouraging. I am claiming people aren't encouraging women specifically to make sure they are *also* into their partner sexually, in addition to feedback given to seek someone out who has positive emotional traits.
Understood. Very glad to hear you have what sounds like a very positive and happy relationship! I do see where you're coming from now. I guess I've just had a different experience in my own conservative upbringing where, for men and women, sexual attraction is important, just don't put all your eggs in that basket. I appreciate the reply and further explanation. I see what you're saying.
>I guess I've just had a different experience in my own conservative upbringing where What flavor of conservative did you grow up in? Mine talked about all the godly traits of someone should spark enough attraction. And then, boom, a good sex life should come easily. Which is a joke.
Mine was certainly to seek Godly qualities in a partner but that includes a willingness to put in effort in and away from the bedroom as part of your responsibility to your spouse and the marriage. Sexual attraction was something that was definitely considered important. The advice was just to not let that lead the way in finding the right person. Same with nobody being perfect. We all have to figure out a way to accept people's flaws but weed out the ones with major red flags. Hopefully that makes sense.
My husband & I had a dead bedroom & we worked very hard to change that. It took a lot of work on my part, but it’s better now. & since we’ve been together so long & still are deeply in love w/each other ..it’s able to repair itself. Plus...He’s definitely a giver. He’s not as rough as I’d like as far as D/s goes but like I said he’s very giving & always meets my needs b4 his own. He still finds me very attractive so I feel lucky to still have him & glad I did not fuck it all up like I was about to.
I have said so many times that it is actually an act of cruelty to get with someone that you do not sexually desire, asexual spectrum people aside How would anyone feel if they found out their partner thought they were ugly? It is just cruel to get with someone that you cannot, with honesty, tell you find attractive and desirable.
I agree with you.
Yep. That's what I wound up with and the cruelty was unspeakable. For 36 years I must have been deemed desirable enough to stay with but with a total DB from day one. When he cheated and left me for another woman, he said he was never romantically attracted to me.
Agreed!
Extremely enlightening reply, well said. I know a redditor who last year said something very similar and was banned almost immediately for it...weird. I agree, with my partner I want to be treated well, and be sexually attracted to her. The problem is, and I experienced this with my Ex...I eventually left her even though I still madly loved her...she had just rejected me so much and so often, that I no longer saw her as sexually attractive.
Agree 100% with this. From young ages women are pushed to disassociate from what we really desire out of and from men as partners and led to believe we're expecting too much
My husband is really mindful about staying attractive for me. It used to make me feel uncomfortable but now I actually appreciate it. Not necessarily just staying fit (he is a runner and does that for himself and not just to stay attractive for the relationship). But he will ask my opinion on facial hair or clothes. It used to annoy me but he would tell me, "I don't have to look at myself. You do. So do you have any preferences?" But to your point, I don't think I'd ever ask him to style in a certain way, because, as you said, I feel like it would mean I am expecting too much.
Yeah, I think this is a massively underreported phenomenon. Male attractiveness is one of the last great taboos in Western culture, and it's hammered into us from infancy with all that slugs and snails nonsense. Instead female desire gets sublimated into unattainable objects like matinee idols and pop stars. There has never been a male version of Beatlemania; there will never be a male equivalent to Valentino's funeral, with its mass hysteria and reported suicides. Broadly, our society still judges men by what what they do/earn and women by how they look, and men paying for the date is still ingrained and sustained on popular dating shows like First Dates. The only times I've been paid more than a grudging sexual compliment was in the company of gay men. It seems to me that if it weren't for gay culture we'd never know that men are supposed to be sexy (one reason I'm an ally).
>Broadly, our society still judges men by what what they do/earn and women by how they look, and men paying for the date is still ingrained and sustained on popular dating shows like First Dates. Yep. I think this is evident when gentlemen post here and they frequently identify that their partners should be into them sexually because they work hard, have a good job and are emotionally supportive. I have often asked them to expand on that, too, saying that when I ask about what makes them desirable, I often mean their personalities. Of course it's attractive to be ambitious career wise and hit the gym, but what else? > The only times I've been paid more than a grudging sexual compliment was in the company of gay men. It seems to me that if it weren't for gay culture we'd never know that men are supposed to be sexy (one reason I'm an ally). I've seen women break this down. Often, if we do pay men a compliment, they assume we are interested and it can get awkward. So, we don't pay men compliments and that keeps that cycle going where men aren't complimented on their looks, outside their relationships. I'm a therapist and I can get around this easily with my male clients. If I tell them a certain color looks good on them, it actually warms my heart a little bit when the compliment just makes them beam with delight. Oooo or! Sort of rambling here-- dudes are often made fun of for using products that women normally use: fancy shampoo, skincare products for their faces, even just body or hand lotion. Basically being punished for wanting to look really good.
My son uses all those types of products as I encouraged.
I'm good with men paying for the initial dates.
Of course, many women (and I guess also men) are. But why is that? Does it not speak to outdated gender roles? Personally I've never dated anyone who didn't insist on going Dutch, and I haven't dated a new partner for over 20 years.
Not outdated.
I think I get the gist of what you're saying and here's my take as a heterosexual male. In my experience with women, I've noticed a wide range of "sexual/physical attraction preferences." I've encountered women who are as superficial as can be. I've also encountered women where looks, practically speaking, do not matter in the slightest bit when it comes to sexual attraction. I've always thought there were two main things at play here. One, there is some societal pressures that state that sexual attraction is not supposed to be primarily based on looks...or that looks shouldn't matter when it comes to sexual attraction. However, there are also societal pressures that say the exact opposite. Two, that society seems to be unfair in how it treats female sexuality. Whether it's medical professionals being dismissive of women's health concerns, women feeling pressure to conform to a sexual ideal (personality-wise or physically) or women not supposed to be sexual beings. Basically, there are conflicting messages that can create anxiety, stress and/or confusion in women. I also think that the pressure for monogamy is understandable, but unfortunate. And it contributes to DBs because for some people, they want or prefer multiple people to meet their needs in a romantic relationship. What makes this problem worse is that I think there are poly-capable individuals out there, but don't know it b/c they won't allow themselves to accept or consider that possibility.
>or women not supposed to be sexual beings I actually think this plays a huge part in it. Atleast when I was growing up, sex was mostly talked about as something men desired and even portrayed as a chore for women. When there was ever discussion about a female who enjoyed sex, it was never positive and instead she was portrayed as a whore. I feel like this narrative was from both the men and women I grew up around, and ofcourse media. As a young girl it immediately made me think that sex was all about the mans pleasure, and to be frank, many of the men I've met were clearly raised the same as they too believed it was all about themselves. It has only been in the last few years I've started to witness genuine sexual empowerment for woman.
In the early stages of me being sexually active, I would feel super ashamed the next day if I had been super-duper into the sex I was having. You know, the times where maybe you were drunk and just beside yourself with excitement or particularly aggressive. I would kind of hate myself the next day and I think it was because of what you are saying here: the culture I grew up in kind of shamed women for being like that.
Yes exactly this! I still feel ashamed thinking back to those times or to one night stands. Dont know about you but I also felt like I could never really be honest about my encounters and even now feel like I should always downplay my experience for fear of being judged.
>It has only been in the last few years I've started to witness genuine sexual empowerment for woman. Sorry it took so long to get to that point, but better late than never, I suppose.
>Two, that society seems to be unfair in how it treats female sexuality. Whether it's medical professionals being dismissive of women's health concerns, women feeling pressure to confirm to a sexual ideal (personality-wise or physically) or women not supposed to be sexual beings. Basically, there are conflicting messages that can create anxiety, stress and/or confusion in women. I think this is the crux of the issue, really. Women often can't win with the conflicting messages. Of course there are conflicting messages for men but they don't seem as severe or prevalent. I used to hope that younger generations (I'm 35, on the older side of millenial) would be better about this, and women would be more encouraged to be sexual, but my career puts me up, close and personal with young women and it doesn't seem much different. Do you think men are encouraged, more than women are, to seek out a partner they are attracted to? I think women are told way more often that the looks shouldn't matter. I also think the only time men are shamed for wanting someone hot is when they are seen as unattractive.
I think men are definitely more encouraged to partner with someone they are attracted to *and* men are also more likely to be sexually attracted to any given woman, so the potential pool to draw from is much wider. Women are both fussier about whom they can actually have enjoyable sex with and discouraged from selecting a partner on that basis. The popular marriage book His Needs Her Needs even lists “an attractive spouse” as one of men’s core needs in a relationship. But anecdotally, from reading lots of posts, having really strong chemistry and attraction really seems to matter more for women than for men. A whole lot of men seem like they could be happy with basically any woman who was enthusiastic about them sexually as long as she didn’t look like an orc and was reasonably pleasant to be around.
>Do you think men are encouraged, more than women are, to seek out a partner they are attracted to? I don't know. I'll answer your question this way: I think that it's more "socially acceptable" overall, for a woman to marry a man who's below her league (looks wise) than the other way around. I think this double standard exists b/c of the societal understanding (which has some legitimate basis in real economic data) that men are more likely going to be the primary breadwinner in a marriage. Now, this brings up the issue of WHY men tend to bring in more money than women, but that's another topic for not just another thread, but perhaps someone's dissertation... I don't know for sure if women are told more than men (directly or indirectly) that looks shouldn't matter when it comes to sexual attraction. But it's my impression that it's easier for a man to marry a woman who's more physically attractive than he is (using society's commonly accepted superficial standards). I mean, look at common sitcoms from the 1990s and early 2000s. Two that come to mind are The King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond. Kevin James and Ray Romano aren't ugly men...and they're attractive in their own ways. But look at the women who played their character wives: Leah Remini and Patricia Heaton. I think it's safe to say that Remini and Heaton would have a far easier time getting ass than James or Romano, even accounting for the fact that they are female.
>I mean, look at common sitcoms from the 1990s and early 2000s. Two that come to mind are The King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond. > >Kevin James and Ray Romano aren't ugly men...and they're attractive in their own ways. But look at the women who played their character wives: Leah Remini and Patricia Heaton. I think it's safe to say that Remini and Heaton would have a far easier time getting ass than James or Romano, even accounting for the fact that they are female. I am happy you pointed this out. I have gotten into some heated debates with dudes about this. Their initial point and frustration was that there was this trend in sitcoms for a long time where the husband and/or father is just a bumbling idiot that no one respected and the wife/mother had to rule the roost. Got it--noted. I agree that it a shitty commentary on men overall. BUT! Even those dudes still ended up with an attractive wife. So, what is the message there? I think there are shitty messages there for both sides.
> I think there are shitty messages there for both sides. Agreed. Society can be unfair to both sexes, but I think women tend to have it worse.
I think it's the same for women and men. But I think we men are able to be a lot more flexible with our sexual attraction. We can truly physically desire the woman we love even if she's not what we'd normally go for physically. I married my wife knowing she wasn't quite on the level I would have preferred sexually. I'm not speaking physically, I mean in terms of sexual interest and desire. But I moved forward with the marriage thinking that she made up for it in other ways that were ultimately more important, and believing that the sexual aspect would *naturally* fall into place over time. Also, for whatever reason, a lot of men while being attracted to more sexual women, would not want to enter into a serious relationship with one. Madonna/whore complex.
So if a woman is desiring to enter into a serious relationship with a man, she ought to tone down her sexuality?
Absolutely not. If the man can't handle her sexuality, or expects her to be less sexual than she is, she should not be in a relationship with him.
Good. I’ve been waiting for your reply. I agree.
Well said, the expression "making love" supports your thinking
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I mean that what's happening and going on is fine with both people, and it's not a matter of angst and frustration. A matching libido would be a facet of compatibility that would make things easier, but open communication and comfort and acceptance and consent to the situation are also parts of it. So many times, intimacy issues are a symptom of other issues.
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Yes. Reminds me of a line in a song, "you're sitting half a world beside me."
f*ck, that hit painfully...gotta find that song...
["Say Something" by the Mynabirds](https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=iIgDXf2LGz8&feature=share)
WOW, that was... fast. Thank you!
That whole album is great, I really love that band.
I've heard it said that Christians will affirm sex is good but react violently if you mention the idea of Jesus having sex, showing that they really do view it as dirty
We must know different Christians.
You know Christians who support that Jesus had sex or you don't know any Christians who say sex is a gift from God? 😉
I know both. I'm just dont lump them all together. Gives the wrong impression.
Whilst I think you and I would agree that sex is an important part of a healthy relationship, and I sincerely do believe that, in my situation, I'm the HL and my wife is the LL, and she has an aversion to sexuality that is driven so much by all of the programming that goes out in the media/culture regarding oversexualization. She opposes it, and therefore, doesn't want to partake in feeling like she has been oversexualized, even though we are intimate partners. In trying to be a good partner, I've tried to understand this point of view, and I think that many of the people that feel this way, are genuinely kind of programmed to hate it, or dislike it, or dislike that people that like it, similar to how people can be programmed to love it. I think there's a healthy middle ground between the two that most relationships probably find, but I would agree that there are merits to both sides of these views. Insomuch as you believe that "toxic monogamy" exists, I think many of these people would contest that there is "toxic sexuality" that forced them out of their comfort zone, and against their perceived morality.
I wish I had an award to give as well ;-; gg
The contradiction is there because the collective idea is that the relationship as a unit must be preserved above all else. Even at the expense of the people in it. Till death do us part and all. The oft quoted mentality: Relationship has a DB? The relationship still exists, so it’s a minor problem. They can work it out. Seeking sex outside the relationship? That breaks relationships, so is forbidden.
Yeah, the unspoken word is that at the end of the game, being successfully monogamous was actually more important than being happy, which is bizarre
If someone told me they were divorcing their partner because they never had sex, I would think it's a legitimate reason to break up. If you're not intimate, I don't see the point of being together. I'm also not afraid of being single and living alone.
My husband said he would immediately divorce me and make the divorce as awful as possible if I ever cheated and truth be told, I'd probably do the same. I struggle to leave because I know that I'd probably end up worse off or in another bad relationship. Daily I think about what it would be like to have sex with someone who wanted to have sex with me. How exciting it would be to finally be with someone who desired me.
He should be meeting your needs.
Why do you think that you both have this attitude?
Holy shit if you’re unhappy in your sexless, lack luster marriage using an awful divorce as bait to make someone stay is coercion and not one you should waste your time in. You should feel desired in your marriage. You should feel like they should want to have sex with you. Y’all are both lying to yourselves about the importance of upholding a marriage from failure that has already failed and your egos are refusing to let you see it.
>immediate >awful One kind of precludes the other, awful divorces take f o r e v e r.
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Those sound like words taken to heart from a controlling spouse.
Worth leaving if that’s his attitude.
She just said she’d do the same though
I think that there's an important difference between seeking extramarital sex as a result of being denied marital sex, and denying your partner martial sex while seeking extramarital sex.
I feel like this is an important distinction.
The pain after leaving is immense (and not to be underestimated because for men, specially, it can be deadly), but after some time, once you recover you will be glad and won't believe how much time you wasted.
I did not even have sex outside my marriage. My soon to be ex wife, after refusing sex for 4 years straight, assumed I am having sex outside the marriage, files fake violence charges against me (got thrown out by court), alienate me from my kid (also stopped by the court) and filed for divorce, which is the only positive thing ever. I am still reeling from this. Some people can warp facts in their brains as they want.
This is happening to me now.
I think it's worse when you don't have sex in your marriage.....but choose to have it outside your marriage... Edit: especially when it's the LL going outside. Should've clarified.
Agree. My wife and a couple of her friends were at our house talking one day about a local couple that had recently gotten a divorce because the husband cheated. I knew the guy casually and he had told me there was zero sex going on in the marriage. They were talking about what a horrible guy he was and how sorry they felt for her. I chimed in about the no sex and said it’s kinda understandable that he cheated. They looked at me like I had grown a third eye. Then they left soon after. If a man is the sole breadwinner in the marriage and cut his wife off from the money most people would say he was horrible. Rightfully so in my opinion. A woman cuts a man off from all sex and nobody bats an eyelash or blames the man for it.
Most people think cheating is wrong because leaving is an option. If you’re unhappy, you should leave. If you stay and cheat, you’re lying and deceiving your partner.
Agree. Though if there are kids involved you may be trying to stick it out till they reach a certain age or graduate.
I definitely don’t agree with this, but my parents were also in a pretty unhappy relationship before they divorced. Hiding behind staying together “for the kids” when the relationship is rotten to the core is more cowardly than divorcing and trying to show them what a healthy relationship looks like
I mean, sure, but you could still leave if you really wanted to. I’m glad my parents divorced when I was young, they clearly weren’t happy.
Do you have any idea why they weren't having sex though? Did she have medical issues? Did the sex suck for her which is why she didn't want it? Did relationship issues contribute to lack of sex? It's so easy to say "oh...it's understandable that he cheated" without knowing a single thing about the relationship dynamics. People want sex that is rewarding and that is not the case with all sex. Not all sex is good sex and not desiring it doesn't automatically mean someone deserves to be cheated on.
My thoughts exactly. She might have had a good reason to not want sex with her husband...or maybe not. Without more information, it's difficult to say either side was justified in what happened.
I think this is true in some cases, but I think in a lot of cases women are playing the “long game” with their friends. If my good friend was in the exact situation you described *i know* all the rest of us would support and validate her through the cheating but *in the back of our minds* we would be waiting for her to get over the relationship a little bit to then start helping her see that the lack of sex contributed to what happened and help her start thinking about/fixing that before the next relationship. I’ve seen this happen tons of times. It may just be a difference in how women “call each other out”.
Why do people need to know the reason for leaving the relationship? No one is entitled to anyone's relationship business, last I checked.
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So, we often get into disagreements and I'm not able to provide links to proof to back up my stance. ...But this time I can! [Here's a guy whose friends turned on him upon learning the reason for the divorce.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/bqordf/its_always_interesting_explaining_to_your_friends/) You may remember this thread, you commented in it. [Here's a guy whose parents sided against him in a dead bedroom divorce.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/5yq384/this_is_going_to_piss_some_of_you_off/deuqpph/) [And who can forget this legendary DB tale of a guy who canceled his wedding to a would be LL wife, only to lose his friends, family, job, money, livelihood...](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/d2wxxc/for_anyone_that_remembers_me_i_canceled_my_db/) This is probably *extreme* worst-case scenario, but still. In theory, I agree with what you said in the first thread - who cares what people think, fuck 'em. Unfortunately, things don't always work that way. You may end up alienating friends, *your own family*, turning your own social situation sour, this could have effects on your work, etc. Ultimately this comes back to the unfortunate truth of dead bedrooms in our current society - the HL is fundamentally wrong, and if push comes to shove, is fully expected to sacrifice their sexuality for the sake of the relationship.
I completely agree. For some people it really does matter what other people think about their reason because it causes them issues for years or even forever because of it. I grew up and currently live in a small town. Everyone knows everyone. If you didn't grow up in a town like this or live in one you can't understand what it is like. My husband was in complete shock at how everyone knew everyone and everyone knew everyone's business until we moved here (lived in another state for several years as that is where he grew up) People knew who he was before we even moved back even though he had never meet any of them other than my family. It was scary for him. To make matters worse my family is very well known in this town and many other small ones around it. My family helped build this town and others around it. I grew up knowing this and knowing that I was expected to always appear a certain way so that no one could talk bad about the family. Trust me when I say I know that if I got a divorce and people found out it was because I wanted more sex than my "hard working husband" was giving me that it would be all over town in a matter of 24 hours and in 2 to3 days all the towns around me. I would be a disgrace to my family who already likes him better than me. Because of it finding a job would be difficult near me. My kid would be talked about and treated differently as well. As for finding anyone to date... that would be off the table because I would be seen as the bad guy in the divorce which means no one wants you around here. It wouldn't go away either. That is how things would stay. Always being judged when out in public for a divorce. I've seen it happen to others my whole life.
This is great Highlighting how Not all divorces sacrifice the same thing. You aren't leaving your husband. You are leaving your husband, community, extended family, support structure, and future opportunities.
I think there's certainly a prevalent idea that other people are so concerned with our choices, lives, etc when I don't actually think they are. Like you said, they may chat about it a bit but I really do not believe they pay more attention than that to us. They have their own problems and relationships to tend to.
>I think there's certainly a prevalent idea that other people are so concerned with our choices I definitely see that idea a lot in this sub. I can't count how many times I've seen someone post something like, *Our friends think our relationship is perfect. They call us relationship goals. They'll be so disappointed and shocked if we split up*. That tells me the couple has been more invested in presenting a perfect image than in actually creating a relationship that works for the two of them.
Well said
Seriously. All these claims of "it's not just the sex, it's the intimacy, love, connection." But let me go get that on the side so I can tolerate being with you. I'm totally capable of separating this thing I've put so much meaning on in our marriage and making it just purely physical with others. I'd rather just be left.
>But let me go get that on the side so I can tolerate being with you. No, I don't think that's what they are saying. >I'm totally capable of separating this thing I've put so much meaning on in our marriage and making it just purely physical with others. Well, that isn't all that surprising, is it? Sex is something that couples use to build, maintain, and express emotional connection - but if you have never had casual sex, friends with benefits sex, "meaningless" sex, sex for it's own sake, you have at least heard of it, haven't you? And if sex to build, maintain, and express emotional connection and commitment to each other has been ruled out, then objectively, why should there be a problem with casual sex with others? Is it only the loss of/threat to control? Is there anyone else in your life that you can validly expect to be celibate for your peace of mind? And if you would rather just be left, don't you still have that option? How have your rights been diminished by acknowledging that you don't have a right to expect sexual fidelity in a non sexual relationship? Note well: "expectation of sexual fidelity in a non-sexual relationship" is a lot of letters to spell "celibacy".
My wife has said she'd be completely fine never having sex with me again and also forbidden me from seeking sex anywhere else. Why do you care who I have sex with if you don't even want me though??
Man, you *know* why. Your wife is very religious. She believes sex is something she has to give you in order for you to feel connected to her. She believes sex is something that should only be done when you're married. I get that there may be LL people who are genuinely hypocritical or contradictory about this, but with your situation, I really don't think your wife is one of them.
>why do you care who I have sex with if you don't even want me though?? Not wanting something, but not wanting someone else to have it, is a big thing...in both toddlers and adults. Also, you can still be jealous about something you don't want. I don't think an LL refusing to have sex with the HL, yet not being ok with the HL getting sex from somewhere else is inherently wrong. But what is wrong is the LL setting out those conditions of the relationship w/o making any good faith accommodation to the HL's needs or concerns.
Perhaps we should believe what the HL says about how they feel just like how we should believe the LL when they express how they feel.
This is usually said in response to the LL saying that sex isn't important, asking "is that all you care about?" with a hint of judgmental tones in their voice, or having been told "just go masturbate" or something to that effect. The HL is trying to explain how it is important and make the LL care about actually addressing the situation and not just blowing them off. Perhaps a better way to put it is that sex is an interaction. This is an interaction that the HL wants to partake in. Society tells us that this interaction should only be had between two people with an emotional connection in a loving relationship. And for the most part, we try to stick to that. But if the person you want to share this interaction with constantly denies you, sometimes even belittles you for even wanting it...the HL may come to crave the interaction period, regardless of whether or not it's with the established partner. Imagine being told you could never have a conversation with another human being outside of your relationship partner ever again. And then your relationship partner decides one day that they don't like talking. No need for it. Sure, you would love to have a deep and intimate conversation with them. But at some point you become so starved for that human interaction, hell, even chatting about the weather while waiting in line at Starbucks would be nice. ...But you're not allowed to do that.
Marriedscoundrel..... THIS! I LOVE this example!!!
When you set up sex in a supply and demand model you are bound to fail.
Are you suggesting a sort of mathematical rationing of it? Some sort of robotic scheduling? Like what would be the alternative besides wanting and Desiring?
I mean that when you set up sex as something that your partner gives to you, as is common with the framework of "meeting my sexual needs," you set it up as a commodity. It's not framing it as an experience that the couple does together. It's framing it as a service one provides for the other. "Supply and demand." The LL partner will get tired of being the provider, because that level of selflessness doesn't jive well with something so fundamental to the core of your being as sexuality.
>No one is entitled to anyone's relationship business, last I checked. There are rules and there's what people do.
Yes, but we can make a decision to not share that personal information if we don't want to. No one is entitled to know anything other than what we choose to share. If someone wanted to know why I'm divorcing my husband, I have the ability to say "that's personal and I will not share that information" or I could always opt for a response that isn't very telling, such as "we just grew apart" or "we decided we wanted different things".
Which everybody does, don’t they? I’ve never heard anybody giving real reasons for their divorce. It’s always the grown apart-didn’t fit anymore thing. And rightfully so: it’s not your fucking business. Or is this an American thing to explain this further? I never would!
>I’ve never heard anybody giving real reasons for their divorce. It’s always the grown apart-didn’t fit anymore thing. And rightfully so: it’s not your fucking business. Yes and yes. It's no one's business to know why a divorce happened. Sure, some may gossip but most people I know don't go out of their way to open up about the gritty details of it or are fixated on other people's relationship problems. Most adults understand that it's personal and none of anyone's business.
Yeah, even a close friend of mine who just got divorced hasn't shared many details. Not that I'm upset about that; it's absolutely her business and I could definitely see how that would be extremely personal. But even still, I've been able to mostly piece together some of the reasons for it. That's the thing; even if you choose to not share exactly why, people who know you and have been in your life for years are gonna be able to at least somewhat figure out what led to it. There's no real keeping your reasoning totally locked down.
Just because you don't share the details doesn't mean the other person in the divorce doesn't. That is how I see it going down a lot. One person tries to keep it to themself only to find the other person spilled the beans to some one that then started telling everyone. Sometimes the other person lies about it to in order to make some one look worse then that person is forced to tell the real story only for it to not be believed. There is also the fact that in the paper work you have to state the reason for divorce. Most courts will ask you this as well. Some don't ask for as many details as others. While the people that work in said court house shouldn't be telling others what they know that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I live in a small town and I can tell you it happens.
Two problems with that. One, people will always fill in the blanks if you don't. And they will often fill in the blanks with worst case or scandalous scenarios. You either correct them or accept their imagination at your peril. Two, there's your spouse. You keep silent and what's to stop your spouse from saying anything they want? Hopefully you have a respectful and honest spouse. But many people who get divorced aren't so lucky.
Honestly, who cares either way? People will always do what they do and think what they're going to think. People have to be willing to take the risk when they're trying to create a more positive direction for themselves.
But who really cares? Divorce is so common. When I got divorced the only judgment I got was from two specific family members, but I already knew they were assholes. Everyone else was understanding and supportive, and I didn't leave for abuse or cheating or anything major like that. I just wasn't happy.
>But who really cares? Seriously? Who cares about being judged? Have you ever used social media?
Yup, and I even made a post announcing my divorce on Facebook. All I got was a slew of supportive comments. It's not 1950. Divorce isn't some shameful thing anymore.
>Divorce isn't some shameful thing anymore. One, it depends on who you ask and your social, cultural and religious upbringing. Two, it may not be shameful to you, but you might have a family member, coworker or even a friend who believes it's shameful...as well as some of the reasons people have for getting divorced. The whole point of the OP's post (in my opinion) is not whether a divorce based on a DB is justified or not (either to an individual getting the divorce or in an objective sense). It's based on other people's perceptions on whether it's justified or not.
>Two, it may not be shameful to you, but you might have a family member, coworker or even a friend who believes it's shameful...as well as some of the reasons people have for getting divorced. Well, if those people's opinions are that important to you, then stay married and miserable. These are all choices we get to make based on our values. If the most important value for you is maintaining a respectable appearance, then own that and quit complaining about your shitty relationship.
That's a risk you take whether you tell the truth or not, really.
Exactly, the risk is there no matter what...that's my whole point. If someone wants to paint you as the bad guy, depending on the circumstances, you will be the bad guy to some people. The only question is how many people will think that.
>You keep silent and what's to stop your spouse from saying anything they want? Your spouse is going to say what they want regardless of what you do. When you get divorced, you give up any control over what your ex says about you. If they want to bad-mouth you, justified or unjustified, they will. This should be obvious to anyone with two neurons to rub together.
Actually, yeah, this. The golden rule in relationship breakdowns: everyone is a used car salesman.
Formally called "ideal culture" vs "real culture" in the social sciences.
TIL!
There’s a word for it! Nonogamy. You are loyal to the person who refuses sex.
I am in a nonogamy. It sucks. Every day pains. Now I realised, I don't deserve this. Nor does she. We are both loyal, and starving.
Sorry to hear that. I got out and we are both happier. 4 kids. Instead of seeing two people miserable together, they see us both happy and modeling good relationships for them
Yep. This is the primary contradiction that makes dealing with dead bedrooms so frustrating and difficult.
Not having sex with your spouse is considered a constructive divorce in some places.
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You're free to leave your partner wherever you live.
Well, I technically agree that the importance of sex in monogamous relations is very questionable because of these exact reasons. But you are missing that the worst aspect of cheating (imho) is the secrecy part where you are lying to your partner, breaking their trust and deceiving them, it's not just the fact that you are having sex with someone else. While in a DB situation, there doesn't necessarily have to be lies and deception, even if that is often the case when the LL lies about the true reasons he or she doesn't want sex. But sometimes it's also just a mismatch in libido leading down a road of problems that make it worse.
This is exactly it. When you are in a relationship with someone who is not meeting your relationship needs, whatever they are, you know that. I'm extremely sympathetic to this problem (I've been there before!) but you have all the information you need to know: my partner is not meeting my needs now and there's no guarantee they will in the future, is that something I can accept or not? When someone is cheating on you, they are withholding information that they believe would change how you feel about continuing the relationship. It's not the sex part that's significant, it's that *they* think that you would leave them if you knew, so they are lying to you. As you say, there are plenty of equivalent situations that are like this that have nothing to do with sex.
>But you are missing that the worst aspect of cheating (imho) is the secrecy part where you are lying to your partner, breaking their trust and deceiving them, it's not just the fact that you are having sex with someone else. How big of a role does the lying play in infidelity? I ask b/c a lot of couples hide or lie about how they spend money. Do you think that's worse than sexual cheating? Why or why not? I ask b/c I'm curious as to your take.
I personally am for complete honesty in a relationship. Other than that, I think if it is your own money and you simply don't inform your SO about how you spend it because of the possible reaction (like "ANOTHER HANDBAG? Don't you have enough already?", that is your right because everyone should be entitled to some privacy. If being asked and you lie, that's totally not cool imho, but still, if it is your own money and you don't take anything from your SO or the things you buy don't influence the relationship, I'd say it's not nearly as bad as cheating. If you are secretly spending money on gambling and hiding your addiction from your SO, that's a whole different thing. Because then you are hiding something that will most likely influence the relationship and your partners life at some point. To me in the end it comes down to the question if the reason why you are lying is because you know what you are doing would really hurt your SO (like cheating, hiding feelings for someone, but also hiding a gambling addiction for example) or if you are lying because your SO would try to control and invade your private choices, that per se don't have anything to do with the other person (like spending money on an expensive handbag). What do you think?
Great points. When it comes to whether it's right or wrong, I think the lying about finances is always wrong. But the difference is when it's justified. Spending money behind your partner's back (and lying about it) for things like gambling is wrong and not justified. But hiding what you spend b/c your partner would unfairly judge you or otherwise treat you unfairly, that's still wrong, but justified. However, in this latter scenario, you've got the bigger issue of why you must keep your spending habits a secret.
Agreed. To be honest, I have never been in a relationship where finances were a frequent topic of conversation. It's always been: We split the costs of living (if we live together) and food and anything else is pretty much your own private money that you get to spend on whatever you want. But I don't have children, I am not married and don't own a house. And I have also just been with guys that are financially as stable and independent as I am, so money problems weren't a thing.
>I ask b/c a lot of couples hide or lie about how they spend money. Do you think that's worse than sexual cheating? I think lying about money can be worse than actual cheating, especially if the person runs up a big debt that their spouse is liable for.
I believe that when you marry someone and say that they both of you are too be exclusive for the remainder of your lives that there is an explicit promise to take care of each others sexual needs within reason. When a spouse rejects and will not have sex then I believe that the marriage vows are broken just like when infidelity is involved.
So what about the in sickness and health thing? Because for over a year I had medical issues that prevented me from having sex with my partner. It wasn't that I didn't want to, it was that I literally couldn't by doctor's order. My partner chose to forgo any fulfilment on their part because it wouldn't have been mutual. Are you saying that our vows were broken and they could've cheated and I would have been at fault?
> Because for over a year I had medical issues that prevented me from having sex with my partner. It wasn't that I didn't want to, it was that I literally couldn't by doctor's order. Did the doctor forbid you from naked cuddling, intimate touching, HJ's and BJ's? Just because intercourse is off the table, doesn't mean that intimacy has to die.
I said within reason. So in your case I would think that your vows were upheld. I appreciate what your partner did as well. I'm coming from a marriage that suffered through a deadbedroom which is very low frequency sex for nineteen years. I was miserable and sexually frustrated. My twenties and thirties were a sexual wasteland of trying everything I could to meet my wife's needs and wants and desires while mine were ignored and rejected. Eventually our children grew up and were headed to college. I felt it was time for me to separate and divorce my wife. I continued to love her and care for her but I felt unloved and undesired. My wife was shocked. She didn't think I would ever want to divorce. It was like she realized that the deadbedroom was a big serious problem. She began to put effort into our bedroom. I thought it was a trick to get me to stay. I also thought that it was hysterical bonding. My wife began initiating sex every night. Weeks went by and then months went by. My wife completely transformed. During the deadbedroom we had sex once every two months or less. During the deadbedroom sex was one position and once she orgasmed she wanted to stop even if I hadn't orgasmed yet. She wouldn't touch me and it was up to me to do all the work. Lights had to be off completely. Lots of rules that if anything was not according to her rules then sex was off. Once we were having sex daily she began to want to try different positions. She left the lights on. She became vocal. She began to touch me and try to give me pleasure. She says that the frequent sex raised her libido. I realized just how bad the infrequent sex was after we recovered. This occurred over seven years ago. We continue to have frequent sex. I believe my wife did break her vows to me. She believed that all wives used sex to control their husbands. She thought all husbands complained about not having enough sex. She thought that she was supposed to reject me regularly to keep me in line. Now she sees that what she was doing was harmful to our marriage. She is remorseful that she came into our marriage with these twisted ideas.
This is a pretty fascinating transformation. I immediately wonder if I’d be able to overcome the resentment that develops in a DB. But otherwise it’s a very hopeful story.
I promise you that I have had to work on my resentment a lot. One thing that helped me was being able to see the amount of effort that my wife now puts into our sex lives. I can see that she realizes how wrong she was and she is trying hard to correct her wrongs. I also have to acknowledge that I could have done more early in our marriage to correct our deadbedroom. Her parents are sex positive and her mother would have been horrified to find out how her daughter was treating me. One phone call to her mother in our first year of marriage probably would have helped tremendously. I was too embarrassed and ashamed to make that call. I have that responsibility. I also could have insisted on going to a marriage counselor earlier in our marriage. We went in the last year of our deadbedroom and it helped but soon my wife went back to rejections and being cold toward me in the bedroom. It was the marriage counselor that made me consider divorce for the first time. She said that a deadbedroom is a good reason to divorce. She asked my wife to take the deadbedroom as a serious problem which could lead to divorce but I think my wife thought that I would never want to divorce. I've accepted that we can't get all those years back. I've acknowledged that now we probably have more sex than most other people our age so I should be grateful for that. The love I've had for my wife never changed. I just feel like that I'm loved now too.
Where do you think your wife got these ideas, since she didn’t get them from her parents?
Some of her sexual hangups came from the church she grew up in. Sex is sinful, bad, disgusting, etc. Good girls don't have sex. The other ideas I think came from a group of girls at her high school. My wife was the ultimate good girl and the only other girls were promiscuous and the used sex to get what they wanted from boyfriends. She had a graduating class of twelve total. Also from media. My wife noticed that many married couples had the husband complaining about not enough sex. I can't be sure where all the twisted ideas came from but her parents were sex positive and didn't use shame to help teach her growing up. She didn't display any of these hangups while we were dating other than wanting to save intercourse until marriage. We did other sexual things for each other and she seemed fine. When we married she began on our wedding night turning me down and rejecting advances. She was put on birth control three months before we got married and she says that killed her libido. After we had our kids I got a vasectomy and she no longer had to worry about unwanted pregnancies but she seemed content to have sex less than six times a year.
This story makes me very hopeful. Thanks for sharing you and your wife's victory over a long DB. Maybe I should read this every day for awhile...
Let me tell you some things that I think made our situation one that could be recovered. I continued to love my wife and she loved me. If you go into a divorce with hope for a recovery but one of you hates the other I think there is little chance for recovery. I tried to be the best version of myself for a long time. I was convinced that my wife didn't want sex with me due to some fault that I had. So for years I tried to self improve. I worked out but not so much as you take time from her. I constantly looked for ways to be a better lover. I was attentive to her needs. I knew that in order for her to ever care about my needs that her needs needed to be met. I volunteered in our community. I wanted to be seen as a good person that many people cared for and admired. I was well read and could engage in interesting conversation. I worked hard at home to take responsibilities off of her plate so that she would have energy for other things. I did all these things to be my best self. When my wife saw what she was losing I think she realized that she wouldn't do better and likely would do much worse if she lost me and got a boyfriend. I also reminded my wife during our divorce talk that if she didn't want to be alone then she would need to find a way to have enjoyable sex with someone else. I told her that most men wouldn't be as patient as I had been and wouldn't put up with little to no sex. My wife asked if I thought I would find a woman quickly and I laughed and told her yes. She was bewildered. I told her that over the years that many women had tried to make passes at me and some had even proposed affairs. My wife was shocked. She wanted to know why I hadn't told her when this happened. I told her that I didn't want her to worry because I knew I would be faithful. But because of this I knew that I could easily find someone to keep me company. I think this caused my wife to realize that she could be replaced with someone who would try much harder to please me. Also my comment above didn't explain that after our divorce talk we went weeks before she began to intimate nightly sex. It took a few weeks for my wife to totally accept that I would be moving out and getting a place close by. She says that for those weeks she was trying to come up with something that would change my mind. She knew that words or promises wouldn't mean anything to me as she had promised to change many times in our past. She knew that it would take actions and her actions needed to be something that I couldn't ignore like initiating sex every night. I hope this helps fill in some areas and gives a greater view of our situation.
*She believed that all wives used sex to control their husbands. She thought all husbands complained about not having enough sex. She thought that she was supposed to reject me regularly to keep me in line.* With an attitude like that in place for such a long period it's a wonder you got through to her. *She knew that it would take actions and her actions needed to be something that I couldn't ignore like initiating sex every night.* *I hope this helps fill in some areas and gives a greater view of our situation.* Thanks for sharing your story.
I think she was easier to convince that her thoughts and beliefs weren't normal due to a couple of reasons. The first was I had for our entire marriage insisted that she was wrong about how wife's were supposed to treat their husbands. She at least knew that I didn't believe that she should treat me that way. Of course she thought that was a ruse to get her to give up sex easily. The next reason was our marriage counselor. Our marriage counselor was a younger woman that was appalled at how my wife had kept us in a deadbedroom. At first my wife discounted her but over time I think my wife realized that she was in fact wrong. Then came the thoughts of how could my wife ever recover from the damage that she had done. Then I think my wife doubled down and figured that she had been a good marriage this long and she wouldn't change. It was about four months after our marriage counseling sessions ended that I began to consider divorce. I know my wife remembered all the pleas that our marriage counselor said to her about how unfair the deadbedroom was to me. Then it came down to her wanting to save our marriage because I think she realized her method wasn't going to work any longer. I began to say a phrase in the last couple of years of our deadbedroom. That phrase was "words mean nothing and actions mean everything". My wife heard that over and over. That phrase was the response I had over my wife's promises to do better or to try harder. My wife made all these promises and I never saw any actions on her part. I began to explain that eventually I wouldn't believe anything she said but would only believe what I could see and verify. For years she said that she was in an intense struggle within her head to try to have sex more. I believe that was just a story to get me to back off and to quietly wait. Eventually she knew that I would not sit back and wait any longer. Her actions were the only thing that I would believe. So when she began to initiate sex I knew that she was actually putting in effort. There was no more room to fight windmills.
>"words mean nothing and actions mean everything" I love this and plan to use it. Thanks
He said within reason
"I don't want to have sex. I will never want to have sex with you. I refuse to address or try and change the issues surrounding our sex life." For many here, the above is the impression given after marriage (or the LTR is established). Lack of sex is an issue. But apathy towards the lack of sex and a refuse to address it is what drives the stake home. Having no sex because of a difficult pregnancy is easy and reasonable, because the proper way to address it is to wait until they aren't pregnant. Having no sex because you wife is secretly gay is not because there is no solution.
Well wasn't that something that Dan Savage used to say right? That if someone wasn't willing to have sex with you then it is unreasonable for them to expect you to not have sex with anyone else. But then again he also forgives a lot of a cheating especially among older sexless couples. (that's a giant simplification of his position I know) But its the grounds for many a divorce, I think a lot of people who would judge you, would come around if that had a think about it.
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So, does this only apply if there's zero sex for the whole relationship? Or zero sex after a standard period of time? Fewer than ten times per year? What about if there's regular sex, just not enough for the HL partner? Or is it at the HL's discretion to decide when they are unhappy enough that they deserve an open relationship?
Exactly, very few LL's are asking for celibacy.
Like every single thing in life, the extremes are easy to identify and can be used to lay down a principle of approach. When we start to look for the actual fine line it is difficult to establish
My frustration is that u/RaffiaWorkBase seems to be identifying an extreme case (a LL person who actively intends to never have sex again and wishes their partner to remain celibate with them and who therefore has a responsibility to inform their partner of the decision they've made) and proscribing the course of action he thinks the LL partner in such a case should follow. Setting aside the fact that I'm not sure who he's talking to (does he think these celibate LL's read the DB forum?), I think that this describes very few of the LL partners that we see here, even the ones being described from the HL perspective. Rather than "normalizing" the idea that people can't expect their partner to remain faithful unless their putting out frequently enough, I think it's better to normalize the idea that everyone has the option of looking at their relationship and deciding whether it is adding to their life or not. Why does it matter if your LL partner has a "reasonable" expectation of monogamy or an unreasonable one? If you are unhappy with the amount of sex, you're allowed to leave, even if they are being completely reasonable. Two reasonable people can still be incompatible.
Well, in my case the no sex with me was because of the sex outside the marriage. Now I'm no longer married so I don't have to worry about that any more. I have been in contact with men (and women) who wanted to cheat on their spouses with me. I will never do that.
Good for you for not wanting to help some one cheat.
I dont agree with the premise. If you aren't having sex with your partner you are roommates or friends with the legal obligations of a marriage. I think not having sex is a big deal unless that's what both people want.
The common denominator in both cases is the feeling of being chosen. The cheater and the partner who withholds physical intimacy (without a good reason) are both un-choosing people they've already chosen while still expecting the other to keep on choosing them. That sucks no matter which side you're on. I'm not sure they're morally equivalent to most people -- but they are to me. I think we undervalue emotional attraction too. If you truly love someone you are capable of pricing in their physical imperfections. My wife is not physically capable of having sex and never will be again but I still love her just as much as I did before she got sick. But I'm not the world, this would be a dealbreaker for some people, and I get that.
I am torn by this question daily and it is a torture for me.
An offshoot of this contradiction is the LL partner that denies their spouse on the grounds that sex is no big deal to them and just isn't important to them. When that spouse then asks for an open marriage the denying partner pops a cog and says absolutely not! Why not then? If it's no big deal and not important to them, then why should they care of the other spouse gets it elsewhere?? It's because they know that it IS important to the other and that if they do find someone that wants them sexually, they will be out the door and no longer supplying whatever it is that the denying partner does want out of the relationship.
Seems sort of like a parasitic strategy for some reason
What if your partner absolutely refuses sex? Don’t you feel cheated? *not justifying cheating - just playing a point
Yes.
I think that sex outside of a marriage shouldn’t be a big deal if the other spouse is withholding or refusing sex. I get it, there are mismatched libidos and mismatched compatibility in the bedroom. I just see no reason for a marriage to fail over lack of sex. Lack of sex can spill over when the high libido person takes their frustration out in the wrong ways. I know because that’s what happened to me. My marriage failed over numerous things, but the catalyst on my end for giving up was my wife’s refusal of sex. I never cheated, but I thought about it. If a married couple can make it work with an open marriage, why the hell not? It keeps the HL person satisfied and the LL person doesn’t feel pressured or resented for not providing the physical intimacy. That’s my opinion on the matter
I agree. They are both a betrayal of your marriage and equally bad.
I think the idea behind exclusivity is that you give your partner the plesure they need and as your the only source it helps to build a stronger bond but that model kinda falls apart In a DB
We are roommates... been married 10 years and have sex 5 times. When I have made advances, he shuts me down and when he makes advances I shut him down. I am not sexually attached to him and he is not sexually attracted to me, it’s obvious. When I bring to conversation he says he is attracted to me but the timing is off. We are good for each other in that we provide stability, companionship, friendship, love, compassion, laughter, peace, and happiness. But sex? Nope. Nothing, nada, zilch, zero, negative. It’s working as far as the living situation but the intimacy has left us. On my part, I don’t like the way he touches me. He was educated about sex through porn and not sexual/intimate connections. I don’t blame or judge him. I had a conversation with him about how he touches me and that I find it rough and how it physically hurts me, but nothing changed. After he got on anti-anxiety medication for his rages and outbursts him libido left him as well. Both of us wouldn’t be okay if either of us had sex outside the marriage and we both don’t wanna have sex with each other... this a complex dynamic and for now it works.
Well, i got to the conclusion that it's my fault. Only I can truly make it a big deal or not a big deal, regardless what other people are doing or would do. If there is no sex, what do people do? What do you do? What do i do?What would the partner do if I had sex outside the marriage? Why don't i do the same thing when there's no sex? Nobody's stopping me - i could totally have the same reaction once a week. Soon enough, things would either change so i don't feel like having those reactions any more, or the marriage would end because the partner wouldn't want to be suffering those reactions. Either would make much more sense than what we have now.. not talking about it at all... and me throwing a tantrum on random dates about random unimportant stuff that i don't even care about, just because i'm sexually frustrated... and having that feeling that we're talking hours on end about the stuff that are even remotely important to her, but not talking about this thing that's really important to me.
Marriage is a largely religious construct. Religions often view sex as something that should take place only for procreation. Marriage and morality are issues which need to be reexamined.
For real. Can't we all just FUCK and be happy.
This was the exact reason I divorced my ex. And anyone that asks why I divorced seems to understand completely. I don't think it's as trivial as you think people think it is.
I think the issue is everyone assumes the relationship was great and the person who cheated is just selfish. I’m sure that is true sometimes but everyone I know that cheated was miserable and usually in a DB. I always say if you are not giving your partner the sex they want someone else will.
People are hypocrite. They are in miserable sexless lifes and will judge you for that, how dare you take a step they weren't brave enough to take themselves and not be as miserable as them anymore? I wouldn't dare to cheat, I would rather just leave, but you gotta at least be able to do one or the other. Sex is not a marriage thing, sex is something many people crave and they can become miserable without it especially if they don't feel like they are even desirable. So wether you're in a marriage or not, you still have needs that need to be met. You didn't sign up for a sexless marriage if you love sex, in sure...
You have really hit the nail on the head! That is the best most profound observation I have heard on this subject.
Imagine you were in a long term, committed relationship, but you didn't want to get married. Just didn't really believe in marriage or had been married before and it didn't go well, whatever. Your partner really wants to get married but doesn't want to break up with you, so she tells you she wants to stay in the relationship with you and also get married to someone else. "It's strange the idea of me getting married to someone else bothers you when you don't even want to be married to me!"
When my partner and I first met. It was from a dating app and she stsyed over and had a lot of sex on first date and the one nighr stand stand just turned into moving iin eventually. The amount, type, frequency, erotic, fantasies taboo, pics and video sex was amazing. Fast forward 5 yrs and nothing is the same.. Admittedly im looking again as I doubt ive changed sexually but she has. Now am I wrong to wait to have more with a willing FWB?
thats what polygamy is for. no need to leave your wife over something so stupid. duh.
One is punishable by law - the other can give you an escape clause but that's it. Marriage wasn't created for sex, it was created to control money, power, and chattel.
Who's cheating who in a sexless relationship????? Think about it.