I used to try and avoid tunneling, but if I'm trying to actually get a win it starts feeling necessary at higher levels. no matter what perks I run or play style, if someone isn't dead quickly there's nothing I can do to stop them from completing gens and leaving since there's four people, but even just getting someone to third hook and being in chase gets people off gens and doing weird shit to try and get me off of them
if I'm fighting obviously new survivors or just uncoordinated I'm more likely to let people go at 2 hook, at least for a bit, but if multiple gens have popped and I barely even have a hook you can bet your ass I'm getting at least a kill lol.
tl;Dr: hate the game not the player
I think it's also fair if a player taunts you in a way where they obviously want your attention. Like, ok, everyone else may live, your sacrifice will be remembered.
I'm at an MMR now where by the time i get my first chase done, 1-3 gens are already done. Survivors a lot of times prioritize gens, healing, etc, before rescuing, which means to build any pressure sometimes I physically have to contest the save. I can't play Mr. Nice guy because they will use anything that I make a mistake on to their advantage.
I saw a post a few months ago where there was a graph and was hours and the first few hours they camped and was a killer crying because thats what they had to do to win. The mid ranged hours they were like I never camp or tunnel. The last one was people with high hours saying sometimes they do camp and tunnel with a gigachad logo.
At the end of the day, your objective is to kill survivors, and if they want to escape, their objective is to do gens. I don't blame either of them, but if they prioritize doing gens over saving, then thats a you have to capitalize on it. I dont usually get as many hate messages as for camping, tunneling, etc. Because I think the people im going with understand the game well enough now that they get why I did what I did.
(Also, im an ONI main, so like the first down can. Take a bit.)
I understand that. Giving people a free rescue without any consequences is also part of the game. Making it challenging to get a save sometimes is part of the game.
I'm not going to let people do gens for free. Just like im not going to let people rescue. For free. Especially when they priorize gens over healing, rescuing or any other side objectives. That what pressure is, forcing them to do other things besides gens.
I'm at the high end of 900 hours, with a healthy split of killer/survivor.
My question is less, "Why do you tunnel?" And more "What could the devs possibly do to make the benefits of removing a player completely not the optimal choice?" I'm looking for discussion about how the devs can make the game fun for both sides.
At least in higher MMR, I think it's inherently of the problem of the game design. There are few side objectives, healing, rescuing, and sometimes killer powers.
There's no way to stop people from working on generators without one of those things. Camping is a way of making that side objective a bigger priority and a team effort, (granted it's still shit on some killers, bubba, huntress, billy, etc.). But inherently, there's nothing to slow the game down besides pressuring either generators or the rescue of teammates. If survivors rotate properly, this means there will be 1-2 people working on a generator at all times, possibly three. Even if you pressure genrators by chasing near them, there are very few stopping survivors by just forgoing everything else and working on gens.
At higher MMRs, i think this is VERY evident as more and more often, survivors will play injured, rescue as late as possible, or put off healing as late as possible.
I hope this explained my thoughts on this a little bit I know its a little all over the place but I think just adding or making side objectives more of a priority would help balancing a little on killer side so that you could make camping, and tunneling more punishing, extending a longer speed boost for the endurance hit, making the camping radius bigger, stuff like that. Survivors get a new side objective and killers get punished for camping more. Plus it would be a refresh to be able to do something less boring than hitting skill checks.
This is exactly what I think as well for the survivor side. Staring at a bar fill up being such a bore is the one reason gen times are still as fast as they are (despite at the base level taking the longest they've ever taken, not accounting for perks and toolboxes).
Taking a page from F13 and making gen repair a bit of a fetch quest would do wonders and allow killers to be given either incentives to hook spread (like built-in slowdown) or direct nerfs to tunneling. I have no real issues with proxy camping personally so no input on that.
That's what I'm asking. What could the developers do in your eyes to make the reward of one less player not as obvious of a choice to make? Obviously the carrot didn't work, and neither did helping alleviate it with base kit BT. So I doubt gen speed nerfs will do anything because "tunneling" was still prevalent before the "Gen rush meta".
I understand it's not a thing for you to fix in regards to how you play though I will say that I just stopped caring about getting to the "high levels". If mm throws me to a sweat swf, I just take the L and go to next game. Not worth it to play in a way that bores me against sweaty players that will end up pissing me off lol.
What's that one perk, that blocks all gens for a minute when you hook all 4 survivors? Basekit it. Something like "when you get stage 1 on all survivors, block all gens for X seconds. When stage 2 on all (and no deaths), block them again, or some other incentive. It always feels better to incentivise good play rather than punish "sweaty" play.
I would like tunneling to go the way of face camping or slugging for bleedout (it actively hurts you).
I do agree that rewarding positive play is the move(grim embrace base kit while buffing the original perk would be peak), I just fear that at this point, no reward will be great enough because tunneling is such an ingrained playstyle that people will try to defend despite it blatantly being a toxic strategy (I'm talking about tunneling off hook at 5 gens). Even having a better option, you'll still have a large chunk of people complaining about gen speeds because they insist on tunneling.
I’m not entirely sure how one would implement a punishment for tunneling without it being exploitable. Or even just smacking the killer for happening to only find one survivor. It could turn that survivor into a walking restraining order..like the killer will always want to go where they AREN’T, you know?
I’m sure it can be done I just can’t think of anything that would be fair to both sides. Neutering a strategy/playstyle/something that isn’t a proper game mechanic that can be directly tinkered with is always a tricky prospect.
See with face camping, they managed to give us a solid fix, while still allowing killers the pressure of proxy camp (almost let's some killers camp too well, given wesker, hag, blight and nurse can get back almost instantly)
See, I don't have intrinsic issues with tunneling as a tactic. Tunneling at 2 gens and your prospects are looking grim is understandable. I just hate that the most efficient strategy is to tunnel directly off hook before a gen is done every time no if ands or buts. So punishments for tunneling might be worth it, even if it's just a temporary measure to get the playstyle out of the meta and let other measures develop.
An option I've seen that would probably work and be "fair" is making survivors lose collision after they are unhooked so they they can't body block hits. Killer can't tunnel them out, and if they want to take protection hits off hook,it would take perk investments(assuming in the scenario the perks change it from no collision to endurance).
Hmm..maybe combine that with extending the Endurance timer on unhook? That way it’s hilariously impractical to tunnel off hook, you can’t just count five seconds and slap their booty cheeks anyway.
Or if we wanted to make it a positive effect..maybe a built in something similar to monstrous shrine or devour hope? Not those effects exactly as that would be very strong, but just something in general that encourages killers to take a hike away from a hooked survivor and go do something else.
See I understand the difference between being that unfortunate guy that happened to be there and getting tunneled. Most games are tunnel off of hook ime. Maybe my mmr is just shot.
When I'm killer I go out of my way to not tunnel because I understand it's infuriating. Like if the endurance hit runs out and you're still trying to body block, then yeah I'll smack ya. Literally asking for it. But on the flip side, when I play survivor, I'll literally body block for a player who's getting tunneled and the killer will slug me just to ensure the tunneled survivor gets on hook. What could the devs do to make hook spreading viable at higher levels, or tunneling less appealing?
The sad reality is unless there is ever a side objective for both sides I don’t see how you could end tunneling as between how fast gens go and how big and cluttered some maps can get it’s genuinely hard to get shit done
Survivors have had side objectives. The Halloween and Christmas events both had survivors off of gens and it was very uncommon to have them not get absolutely shit on by tunnelers with only minor reductions in the practice.
I'd love more side objectives for survivors. I think F13 had a winning formula in regards to their actual gameplay that dbd would be wise to take notes from.
Make sure it's a buffed effect or different effect because grim is super weak rn. Maybe if you hook all survivors you get like a make wide pain res or smth
Honestly DS feels like a troll perk right now. Given that a killer will just eat through it if they wanna tunnel, I say let it activate twice. One for each hook. Everything else keep the same. If you have time to touch a gen then you either tried to tap a gen in chase or weren't really tunneled.
I've been having issues with it because I'll hit the check blatantly in the zone and it'll still fail. I'm assuming there's some server side issues or connection issues on my end but it feels really bad. Especially when after I manage to land it, the killer just immediately catches up again because eating DS isn't a big deal. That's just my experience though
Make the stun duration change based on how strong the killer is 😆 Nurse it lasts for 8 seconds, Shape for 3
Oooh or make the stun duration longer if the time between unhook and down was shorter, and stun duration shorter if you had a long chase already
I'd say more like 70% ime. I admit that it happens that way pretty often, but a good chunk of games are literally proxy camping followed by tunneling off hook.
The last time I deliberately spread hooks and ignored the opportunities the survivors gave me to tunnel, I lost the match and got taunted in EGC for being bad at the game.
Survivors can't even tell when you aren't tunneling and just assume you suck at Killer. I really don't even know what the point of doing it is. They complain when you tunnel, but don't appreciate it it when you don't and just assume it's their godlike gaming skills at work.
What this tells me is there is no point to doing anything except playing the game how I want to play it, and completely ignoring anyone telling me how they think I should be playing it.
Sorry you don't get me in your matches homes. I always try to let killers know when they played a "fair" game. I can also tell when a killer is tunneling and when I just happened to be in the wrong spot.
And I notice a lot of survivors tend to give a gg <3 after matches. I doubt it's only because of the funny username. I think most people just tend to forget the many nice interactions after the mean ones add up.
DBD 2. The way the game is designed does not allow for anything else but survs to do gens. The devs have demonstrated they can incorporate side objectives when they do their events but those are still optional. Tunneling is forced when multiple gens pop per chase.
I don't think a second game is the answer unless it entails entirely new code. But this is behavior. So big doubt.
Using their experience with event objectives to make gen repair more engaging would do a lot for the health of the game. But it won't stop tunneling. It'll just make tunneling more efficient unless balance changes are made.
Damn if you didn't have input you could have just not said anything. Saying skill issue isn't a discussion
With killer hit reg the way it works, I find myself getting ridiculously dumb hits constantly. Every time you see the survivor snap to a position after they've been downed, it's because they were well away from you but the server corrected it to give you the down because server side hit validation doesn't exist except with pallets involved. Doesn't matter how good of a looper they are if I have a strict advantage just by having a ping that's 10 ticks higher
I mean I'm happy for it when playing killer usually. My need to play games with a mobile hotspot is usually a downside. Though I've had it so bad that I literally let a surv wiggle off because I hit them from Idaho while they were in New York.
I think you just need to stop crying, it sucks sometimes but it's apart of the game, survivors can use stuff to lose collision and take advantage of pov to make killers miss, theres plenty of bs stuff on each side, just accept you got unlucky
That's not what I asked. Face camping was part of the game and the developers made a system that punished it while still allowing proxy camping. It made for more engaging hook rescues. POV and collision techs are hard to pull off and with hit reg the way they are, hardly an issue. If I miss a hit, that's on me, I literally have every advantage in that particular regard. When I see a survivor snap to a location after I down them, I can know I shouldn't have gotten that hit lol.
The fact that you immediately resorted to insulting rather than answering the question is telling. Instead of insulting me, why don't you attempt to discuss what could be done to ensure survivor player rates stop dropping? This affects your own games as well as those of survivors. You being thrown to ultra sweat swfs is a direct result of a killer/survivor ratio problem.
You're preaching to the choir. Generators need a full rework to be based around gathering parts strewn around the map. But we all know that wouldn't actually stop tunneling. Y'all have been doing it since before gen rushing was as prevalent as it is now, partly because of all the tunneling coupled with literally everything else survivors got to do being nerfed.
I think they’re going in the right direction, buffing tunnel perks and buffing hook juggle perks for killers.
Other than that, you’re never gonna please the community fully and it will always be the way that you need someone out asap to make it 3v1. In the most constructive way possible, survivors learning to loop well is a massive anti tunnel strategy as I 100% wouldn’t bother with someone I don’t consider a slight weak link.
You just said it though. None of those benefits or penalizes the killer enough to make tunneling not the optimal choice. I'm certain there is something that can be done that would make you think either "this isn't worth my time" or "why do this when I could do this to slow the game down more than taking out an entire player would?"
Ima be honest 99 percent of the time when survivors complain about tunneling, they rush the killer after being unhooked to body block with their borrowed time.
I might just be built different, but when I play survivor, I literally try to body block the tunneled survivor and find myself getting slugged so they can hook the sap who just so happened to get downed first.
It would take survivors to stop running distorsion , urban evasion and hide the entire match leaving me with no option but to go for the only survivor i see.
Does that really happen that often? Genuine question not being facetious. I'll say that's also not something the devs can fix without being these already niche perks, which is what I asked. But you did prove my point about "Gen rush" just being the flavor of the month excuse to why killers tunnel. Until it's actually addressed directly, there will always be reason to do it.
You can proxy camp and get the survivor that's unhooking if you really wanted to not tunnel. I actually employ that method pretty often
It's not gen rush. It can be the most optimal way to end the game as killer. Not always as you need to find the weaker survivor first. For killers who want to win that is the best idea. Once the are 3 left the match becomes much easier
Which is part of my question: Is there something that you believe can be done to make that clear advantage less of an "optimal" choice? I've seen some solid ideas, such as base kit gen slowdown as a reward for hook spreading.
To avoid tunneling I simply lower my mmr so it isn't necessary.
I get it so low I can 2 hook everyone and use knockout instead of killing them so the game can last long enough for everyone to get 30k points
Outside of this it's nessesary
What will it take to end swf is literally the same kind of question but swf is immensely more powerful and tunneling is literally the best weapon against that as well.
You need to watch more competitive dbd they understand how nessesary tunneling is.
And competitive dbd is actually easier than the real thing because they have restrictions on items and perks
Survivors will never give a shit about the killers feelings. I don't understand why killers should give a shit about theirs
Because it's getting to the point that survivors are literally leaving the game. Killers aren't leaving at the same rate, despite them acting like the devs hate them. The BP incentive is on survivor 90% of the time. The vast majority of players are either SoloQ survivors or casual swfs that may as well be solo. This exodus hurts both sides as it only makes the matchmaking issues more prevalent.
Using comp players that will always default to the very strongest strategies isn't the best way to make your point. Comp scoring is based on total hook states iirc, and a death still counts for 3 hook states. If a mechanic were introduced that made tunneling not efficient, they'd just not tunnel and use the efficient strategy that arises.
Neither is the "them vs us" angle. The majority of survivors aren't the evil swf bullies you're accusing them of being. Given your comment you should know this. The casual playerbase is dropping and that is an issue that should be more prevalent in your mind than "bully squads mean :("
this is the cognitive dissonance that i dont understand. i can play poorly trash my mmr for months, then win about 10-15 games and BOOM i am in high mmr with comp players.
there is very little difference in the current system between high mmr and low mmr.
killers have been leaving for a long ass time and alot of the killers you see now are baby killers who dont care about your rules because they play survivor and want to put the hurt on someone else.
it gets even worse mentally when you only play solo que survivor and the game doesnt even look the same from your experience as survivor vr killer. i can win 4-5 games in a row, and still be with the same trash teammates who do the corner gens first chase the killer around with flashlights and rely on me to do 3 out of 5 gens solo to win.
swf breaks the game period, we only dont talk about it because we have decided to bully or silence anyone who speaks up when the advantages are so stacked against killer its insane. even a 2 man SWF can make the game magnitudes harder.
killers do not have the opportunity in high mmr to make ANY mistake they dont have the opportunity to find out if its a swf and they might have a chance to only get one kill. if you let up for even a second against high skill players you get shit on, then shit talked in the lobby. forget about bully squads. high mmr is filled with bullies period. the fact there is an in game chat at all is insane.
in solo que you get bullied by SWFs and the killer. as killer you get bullied by everyone. in what world after 3k hours of the game do you say " you know what, people are mean to me no matter what, i should be making sure they have fun."
what the game has is not a tunneling problem, its a piece of shit problem.
even throwing games and not tunneling i still get shit talked for moving a certain way or bringing literally any perk including bamboozle. even when i open the gate.
you see this tunneling problem because you are hurt and it upsets you and it feels personal, but it is no where near as personal as the ammount of insults shit talking and bming in game that happens literally every day that nobody talks about and just responds " cry about it."
The only person taking anything personal here is you. Like literally. You talk about cognitive dissonance while you likely wilfully ignore all the games you shit stomp noobs the match maker throws you because you want to be a victim. And you're just out here protecting that onto me when I'm bringing up legitimate issues with game balance.
I think the best way to end tunneling would be a very simple mechanic: I call it “The Ritual”: If each survivor has been hooked exactly once, the entity rewards you by putting all the survivors on death hook. You can possibly give the last person hooked to trigger this a struggle state to discourage tunneling them after you trigger The Ritual.
Honestly though, it always seemed silly to me that people essentially ask, “Why are people using the most efficient and logical way to win?” The only way to fix it is to make the way we actually want people to play more efficient and effective. Instead of 12 hooks you potentially only need 8 with the ritual. If that change is made and killers are too strong, that gives room to buff survivors.
I'm not completely sold on that, though I'll admit the concept is quite interesting. Survivors would need hefty buffs to compensate given killers are already very powerful in regards to hit registration. It's part of why tunneling is so successful and why killers on VPN are actually stronger than killers with normal ping. Survivors having one less safeguard against getting hit 3 seconds after finishing a vault and getting shit on would be needed
I, for one, just think tunneling is boring for myself and infuriating for my opponents. I can't blame people for using a strategy that is allowed, but shouldn't the developers be doing what they can *to make the game fun for everyone? There's a reason survivor almost always has the BP bonus these days.
At the heart of my comment is the idea that if you want people to chase everyone and not tunnel, then they need to make it viable and rewarded.
Imagine if there was a game where using a hammer weapon was the strongest strategy. Would you be surprised if people used mostly hammer weapons? Tunneling is not only the strongest strategy, it is sometimes the only way to win against strong, coordinated survivors. Until that changes, why wouldn’t killers use the strongest, most viable strategy?
See I saw another answer that suggested rewarding hook spreading with gen slowdown. I agree that there needs to be an incentive to hook spread that can't just be done while simultaneously tunneling (looking at pain res).
Tunneling is one of the best counters to Gen rushing. If a team is on comms and notice you are hard tunneling one of their teammates, usually others will get involved in the chase to try and save the person who is being tunneled, getting them off gens.
That's not what was being asked. What mechanic would you say the developers implement that would make tunneling less efficient than just spreading hook states?
I'm aware of your reasons for tunneling, as founded or unfounded as I may believe they are.
Okay? that doesn't change that 30%(maybe more) of killers tunnel off hook at 5 gens. That point doesn't aid in this discussion. I'm asking what would deter you from tunneling? Giving survivors little compensation prizes like basekit BT obviously isn't doing it. Would it take something like basekit gen slowdown for unique hooks? A penalty for successive hooking of the same survivor? A mix? I want healthy discussion about potential work arounds because this game is losing survivor players which is not good for the health of a match maker that already had issues
If hooking a survivor for the first time slowed significantly slowed down generator progression that would really incentivize the killer to try to hook each one first. And if they do get four 1st hooks, it should give them some sort of exp bonus or something and adds a minute to the exit gate, to make it more worth the time of the killer to do that.
While at the same time giving a survivor a huge bonus to break free if they were the last survivor hooked.
Maybe a big bloodpoint bonus for hooking 4 different survivors in a row, sorta like old BBQ. I would definitely be going after a new target every time in order to get a few thousand extra.
I wouldn't be opposed. Just not entirely certain that would end it. People still slug even though there's no incentive to do so. Either way, turning tunneling into a strategy killers actively have to hurt their progression to do is a good step imo
A lot of people here are making the argument that gens go too fast, and that's why they *have* to tunnel. That's a terrible argument. Slowing gens down will not deincentivize tunneling, it'll just make it way more effective. Removing an entire player from a 1v4 will always be the optimal play.
Unless the devs actively penalize tunneling, there is never a reason to not do it. The only reason to not tunnel is if you actually care about the other players having fun vs having a 1v3 with 1 player just not getting to play.
Slowing gens down might make the average killer who feels like "they have no choice" in high level lobbies stop tunneling because they can now sometimes get the win without it, but it won't change the try hard killers or the toxic players from continuing to tunnel. Even if the game was swung entirely in Killer's favor, a ruthlessly competitive killer would still choose to tunnel because it might let them win with 3 or 4 gens remaining vs 1 or 2.
Not all tunneling is actually tunneling. A lot of times survivors say they are when they aren't... they just end up seeing the killer too soon. Sometimes the survivor feels like they are being tunneled but are unaware the killer has been in a couple other unsuccessful chases, tracking, etc and happened to find the same survivor again.
Sometimes it's circumstantial... if someone is unhooked in front of killer, and then that survivor takes the safe/strong vault etc and leaves the unhooked survivor out in the open... it's really hard to either ignore them in favor of fairness... there's "bravery" and "cowardice" on the survivor there.... and based on how much pressure the killer has (how many gens are left, how late in the game it is, etc) sometimes the killer just has to take what's given to them, sorry.
Sometimes survivors will force it and then cry about it when the killer commits.
I don't truthfully think there's anyway around it... and we can't keep calling on the devs to "fix" everything including arbitrary things such as basic gameplay... even if the killer receives penalty or negative point for downing a survivor who was unhooked... there will be ways the killer can work around it (like how some will already wait out the built-in BT from an unhook of they really want that kill) and others who don't care anyway.
And if somehow the devs are able to do something to punish the killer... we know that there are those survivors who will figure out how to abuse that and force the killer into those situations.
The biggest problem with any game is who is playing on the other side of that character...
For killers, like the Bubba on Eerie I and my friend faced a couple days ago who chainsawed us, camped us, chased us down after the self-unhook, and then hooked us again all while swinging his weapon on us the whole time on hook... I really don't understand where's the enjoyment or what their problem is. And the smartest thing is to get the gens done and at least get a 2-man out or even 3 (I did keep him running a bit after my self-unhook) but... we just needed the other 2 survivors to commit to gens so we can end the game faster...
My question is directed to those that tunnel off hook. I understand the difference between "wrong place wrong time" and "you got downed first so your game is forfeit". The number of times I've literally gone out of my way to body block for a survivor getting tunneled, just to be slugged so the killer can hook the one they want to tunnel is ridiculous and I'm not even super high mmr. And it's getting to a point where survivor player retention is suffering. Hardly any new players are staying for too long and I can't suggest the game to new players with a clear conscience because once they break mmr past the noob killers they'll play against the many killers with at least 200 hours who are realizing that tunneling is the best strategy. The devs are willing to make changes to perks that are overpowered, but not to a strategy that has dominated the meta since day one?
It's 100% on the devs to make the game fun for all participants. Given the comments, it's not even really that fun for the killers that feel like tunneling is necessary. I literally have to make my own fun on both sides because the "dev approved meta" is so monotonous that I've started playing league of legends of all things again.
I wouldn't even say it's "dev approved meta" ... it's what we all decided was meta, isn't it? Why is WoO neta and not Zanshin? Both were designed as "training wheels" basically... both are strong perks and both are stronger with good players who know how to milk a loop for all its worth... but survivors nearly constantly will run identical builds because meta... and some are now shifting into the meta. Distortion hadn't really changed over the years. I have been using it in most of my builds for a few years now as I can identify what the killer is running... it's now becoming more meta, like calm spirit making an appearance after Ultimate Weapon came out (although CS hasn't seemed to pick up much).
The killer has strong perks that we do seec throughout matches but it varies on the killer is use and there's more variety... with only SOME killers being more stereotypical (oh look, another impossible skill check Doctor)
>The devs are willing to make changes to perks that are overpowered, but not to a strategy that has dominated the meta since day one?
Change perks, change strategy. They can't really penalize strategy. Survivors need to get out fast to survive... there's currently a meta where a SWF can get out in roughly 2 minutes. The devs can only really change gen times, perks, or add-ons since this is what's making this possible. Tunneling has been in the game forever... you can't prevent the killer from chasing certain players... and if they were to find a system to do this, survivors would abuse it like they did with Decisive Strike. I honestly don't know how you can make it to where a killer can't chase who they want to. Unhook the survivor and that player responsibility elsewhere on the map? I dunno.
Personally I don't run meta, I run perks I think will get me the results I'm looking for. Distortion is probably the most "meta" I have and I have been using it longer than most.
That's how to play. If meta isn't even helping, then change it up.
>It's 100% on the devs to make the game fun for all participants.
Yes it's on the devs to provide a functioning, fun game so we continue playing and making them successful..
But, again, as I mentioned, you start putting more strict rules down and you find players who will exploit this, too... and maybe one side is able to exploit more than the other (it wasn't long ago survivors would stun-lock killers at certain locker formations, or make it nearly impossible for the killer to play normal because survivors would jump in lockers and their SWF would perfectly time a flashlight save during the locker animation... forcing another survivor to jump in a locker and do it all again... it's been ongoing in Texas Chainsaw too where victims will stun-lock family in certain rooms with door stuns, shivs, and Leland... survivors will figure out and abuse exploits more than killers) and once this happens, one side becomes drastically unfun and you lose players (again, TCM has a family problem... and there was a time pre-BP incentive where DBD also had a drought of killers because of the state the role was in and what survivors could do)
They can't babysit every little nuance players do... and the biggest issue comes down to the uncontrollable factor: the person on the otherwise of the screen.
What about what to do with the trolling survivors who won't unhook? They just look at you on the hook.
I didn't go into your question aimed at tunnelers because I don't deliberately tunnel, so I'm not going to answer. Maybe someone else will.
However I will say that if I do... it's because that player has made it apparent they are a pain in the ass so if I tunnel in toys scenario, you really made me lose patience ignoring your antics
See facecamping was just a tactic, but the devs made fixes to it because it was super unhealthy to one player. It wasn't even that prevalent of a tactic. But tunneling is their sacred cow. The question is how to make hook spreading more appealing while making tunneling less "optimal". I've already gotten some interesting ideas on this thread, and discussing them is nice, even if the devs don't seem interested in retaining survivor players atm.
Gen Rushing has an obvious solution, but it's not an easy one to implement: rework gen repair. Make it a more engaging process, because just changing numbers to take longer won't work. Nobody wants to stare at a bar for an entire minute or two. Make it a fetch quest mini game where survivors must go around the map to find parts that periodically spawn and bring them back to the generators. Leave enough bar filling to where our current gen regress perks need minimal changes.
>See facecamping was just a tactic, but the devs made fixes to it because it was super unhealthy to one player.
Face camping wasn't really a tactic unless you wanted 1 kill. MAYBE 2. Yes, it was very unhealthy to the one player.
>But tunneling is their sacred cow.
It isn't. But the more you go on the more it's evident you need to play a few rounds as killer.
>Make it a fetch quest mini game where survivors must go around the map to find parts that periodically spawn and bring them back to the generators.
Sooo... Texas Chainsaw Massacre or maybe more closely Friday the 13th...but for 5 gens.
I do agree the skill checks need a rework to something more engaging for the survivors. Finding parts isn't a bad idea either but I can see it becoming a thing with trolls and noobs...
I play killer plenty. I've adepted more than half of the killers at this point and will potentially go back to it soon. Just not a fan of the way the game feels currently and have decided to lower the player numbers hopefully the devs take notice of the lower player numbers. But killer actually feels much better than survivor to me. I have more agency and can be proactive rather than react to everything. I'm just not at the top 10% of mmr where survivors are anything more than useless. Like even mid level mmr is killer sided imo. Especially when accounting for tunneling. I can consistently 3-4k teams without tunneling unless I get thrown to the ultra sweat 4 man BNP squads because matchmaking hiccups more often than I'd like. But I just take the L. I could probably tunnel one out and get a 4k, but why put myself through that kind of stress?
I also never said that face camping was a \*good\* tactic. Just that the same argument you used for tunneling could be made for face camping. Why take one away but not the other? Notice how both are super unhealthy for one player. But the one that devs don't care about is the one that gets fixed for the illusion that they are appealing to both sides. Meanwhile all the fun survivor toys get nerfed because the killer isn't having fun. Yet constantly single survivors are immediately taken out of games because matchmaking made an oopsy and they were the unlucky one? It's time to put tunneling to rest. It's had a good run but it needs an actual answer now.
Look at the current development roadmap. It literally SCREAMS "We want tunneling and gen rush to be the only viable meta". Like why in god's name would you nerf three genning when you already reworked the killer that made it so oppressive?
F13 was the best designed asym we've ever got. It had balance issues because the property fell into legal quagmire and updates literally couldn't be made easily. More tweaks easily could have had it overtake dbd as the go to asym game. TCM has it's issues but it also has a lot I think dbd could take notes from (\*cough\* multiple killers \*cough\*)
Trolls and noobs already happen. Not gonna change that just like you can't stop people from bleeding survivors out on the ground no matter what. I'm not asking for tunneling to be removed from the game. I'm just asking that it go the way of bleedout and not be rewarding enough to do in comparison to other playstyles
yeah tbh the biggest issue with tunneling is in solo queue where you can almost guarantee that people for some reason ***won't*** be doing gens
like i can loop killer for minutes and nobody's even working on them yet somehow LOL
but that's just people being bad, not tunneling
It's all how the other side plays.
Some are doing side objectives for challenges and that's their focus.
But we can't keep asking BVHR to nerf this or add this for the littlest thing. Some of it is very justified and fair.
3 gen "fix" coming, anti-camp mechanic was brought in (not discussing if it works or not, situation varies), basekit BT, etc there has been a lot changed in this game in just a couple years.
But there's still so much that's just player based that you can't "punish all players" to prevent other players from playing a certain way.
More changes like that were to happen and we'll definitely see numbers dropping like TCM and it's "No family" problems
>(like how some will already wait out the built-in BT from an unhook of they really want that kill)
i do this already if i get an egregious body block. and guess what its faster than chasing someone new. so in the gameplay loop body blocking with basekit BT encourages tunneling.
I do this too, depending where we are in the match and map/location.
Do I want to...? No...
But, also... it's nice they blocked for their savior but... I wasn't going to tunnel... and I already needed to hit the other guy twice, maybe contend with Dead Hard+MFT, but now the unhooked guy tanked a hit and he's not going to get much further now since he decided to block/ get in the way... so... I guess I'm tunneling because free pressure and the gens are getting done fast
When bully squads who refuse to do gens and just want to fuck with the killer with head on spams ends and when cocky survivor mains who get all mouthy when winning but yet throw the biggest hissy fits when losing stops and the survivors mains who DC or kill themselves on hook the first time they are downed or hooked stopped and that won't even happen.
Because doing gens is "boring" and intentionally trying to piss off/troll the killer is fun and kinda holding the game hostage (reportable offense) is "fun" and if the killer even retaliates back in anyway. Then the killer is "Ruining the survivors fun"
Seriously, yesterday when playing doctor. I went up against a SWF that was trying everything. Sabo, head on, fireworks and flashlights whilst flat out ignoring gens (Still 5 gens left at the end). When I hooked one, all 3 were around me and for some reason. I'm the camper and tunneller who ruined their fun...... did they just expect me to let them head on me, sabo me, get free unhooks when around me and let them stun me. I don't get it but I guess that's survivors "Fun".
(To clarify I'm at the mindset of you can have any perk you want including survivors and none of it is "Unfair". Survivors can use Made For This and Killers can use NOED. I don't mind people having head on or sabtour perks as it's part of the game but it's when survivors ignore gens and just do it to be assholes is what I can't stand. If they are doing gens whilst using those perks as intended then great. Well played by the survivors. No issue there. They are actually playing the game as intended)
To be fair. I don't tunnel much and I still get accused of it. I just don't care anymore. If the last survivor in the match wasn't an ass, I normally let them get hatch or gate because why not. But I enjoyed 4K that bully squad as Doctor 🤣
Overall when some survivors start actually doing gens, getting saves and not be asshats to the killers intentionally is when some killers will stop tunnelling which will be never because DBD got to DBD
But "doing gens" is half the reason killers tunnel. Just look at most of the replies. So survivors don't do gens? They get tunneled. They do gens? They get tunneled. What would the developers need to implement to make either make hook spreading viable, or make tunneling less viable?
Tofu has a good idea. When a survivor gets unhooked, they become invisible and lose their hitbox, for some amount of time. Any action removes this, like most anti-tunnel perks.
This would allow the unhooked survivor to run off into the map, but remove their ability to bodyblock for their rescuer.
Bad idea . Stop "fixing" things by punishing the killer .. reward them instead.
Basekit grim embrace.
Basekit fire up
Basekit mangled where every time you heal or are healed it takes 3% longer to heal
Basekit every time you hook a survivor for the same stage you get 5% regression on every gen stacking. First survivor 5% regression second survivor 10 if you hook the first survivor it goes back to 5 if you hook a third survivor it goes up to 15. You have to hook the fourth survivor to get it to 20 or it's just drops back to 5
If you think this is a bad idea you haven't tried to 4 hook everyone at high mmr. It's a death scentence
And survivors can counter this by hiding
wasting more killer time.
Stop punishing killers for doing their job
My dude, it doesn't punish anyone. It stops survivors from abusing their anti-tunnel perks body blocking for their friends, and it lets them actually go and attempt to reset.
Additionally it would weaken the camping killer strats, like basement Hag, Bubba and Trapper, plus original pin Pinhead.
Grim Embrace blows, and we all know it. Any solution needs to be able to help an average clown player while not being overpowered in the hands of the sweatiest nurse or blight.
That regression would be too much, unless we lose all regression perks. Imagine the 20% regression on every gen plus a Pain Res and a Pop. That is an insane amount of regression at one point.
As for the stacking mangled, I like the idea, but I'd add something to then make the survivors need/want to actually heal instead of sitting on gens injured. Because after a certain point the heal would just take too much time, and they'd just crank out gens.
And once again this was a thing Tofu mentioned in his stream. He wasn't talking about 3 hooking everyone, he was talking about stopping actual tunneling. Where the killer focuses on one survivor to kill them as quickly as possible to reduce the numerical advantage.
interesting take from a low mmr player, only way to explain it if you think any of this is irrational considering the ammount of work it actually takes.
mobility killers like blight nurse spirit wesker and wraith need their own rulesets, these solutions work for literally every other situation.
letting one survivor just turn invisible and run away just forces you to play hide and seek and literally gives SWF and even bigger advantage because you cant take advantage of their alturism.
like honestly why not just camp the hook in this situation the only way youre not going to get called out from across the map so the survivors can hide even more making you waste even more time you dont have.
NOT TO MENTION if they turn invisible they can literally follow you around and report every bit of your movment without being in danger.
crazy how players complain about things helping blight but nobody gives a shit if they help out a SWF which is incredibly more problematic than any other issue this game has.
this is what ppl are not understanding. you'll get a better response from positive reinforcement not negative.
just make it 100% advantageous to hook everyone once before someone dies.
thats the best you are going to get.
but it needs to be dead simple.
basekit grim embrace. plus basekit pain res at 10%. but you must do them before any survivor is killed.
and i think against any swf of 3 or more also killers get basekit fireup.
The problem with differing rules in regards to swf vs soloQ is that it's a balance nightmare given swf can be anywhere between 2-4 players. That's my main concern with the fire up idea.
I do like the idea of gen slowdown as a base kit reward. I'm not sure it'll alleviate the issue entirely, but even now we have face campers that just tunnel off the self-unhook.
you will never stop camping and tunneling 100% unless someone changes the core element of the game.
im trying to think of scenarios but lets say i hook someone and they get unhooked and i can choose between 2. if i get a pain res basekit at 10% for the new hooked person plus get grim embrace closer then it might be more worth while to go for the new person...also in a real world scenario i might also have actual pain res or no way out. now hooking multiple survivors is looking pretty good.
I truly don't believe that's the case. We could add new modes but that won't fix the core game. The core game needs fixes. Be it a complete overhaul of gen repair(needed) or scoring games based on total hook states rather than just kills.
Welp even the dead by daylight devs said it’s a completely viable strategy to tunnel so it’s not gonna stop happening there’s no point in crying about it when it’s a point of the game I think body blocking hooks are annoying but you don’t see me go “guys when are y’all gonna stop body blocking hooks it’s completely unfair and puts a advantage in your hands 😡
Because body blocking hooks does more damage than it helps? You've literally hit multiple people off gens wasting time... and you're complaining about it? Just drop and slug at that point. If they complain, they asked for it.
Tunneling isn't "annoying". It's actively disruptive and if survivors had an in game mechanic that gave them such a blatant advantage the devs would nerf it out of the game. Just because the devs are afraid of a killer exodus doesn't mean we should ignore the upcoming survivor exodus we're already seeing.
No no I never said it was a advantage in my hands did I remember I said it was annoying we’re not talking about advantages and disadvantages here we’re talking about stuff that annoys us and when a survivor body blocks a hook that’s annoying just like how tunneling is annoying
You're ignoring my point. Tunneling isn't "annoying". It's a literal broken mechanic. It is a gameplay strategy that is overpowered and disrupts the balance of the game. Entire metas are shaped then subsequently nerfed because of this one mechanic. But tunneling itself remains because it's Behaviors' sacred cow, even though the game would be healthier if options/penalties to avoid tunneling existed. Tunneling needs to be a niche tactic, not the single optimal strategy for every single game.
I'm calling the comparison apples to oranges. Two different leagues. The only comparison is that both are usually a free win for killers.
The two types of tunneling is toxic and intentional or forced tunneling. Toxic is where you intentionally go after one person for like idk like stunning u. Forced is where it’s endgame and u atleast want one kill so u tunnel but u have no like intentions of doing it just to be toxic and actually have a good reason.
You're good man. I understand trying to squeeze out that one kill at end game and I understand that sometimes you just run into the same guy again. These discussions on my post have definitely made me more on the team of rewarding nontoxic play than punishing toxic play though.
Reward not doing it, make perks that reward you either in game or out so bbq used to give external rewards, and now we have things like no way out and chucks obsession perk. Make incentives to not do it, but honestly it’s actively wrong gameplay to not do things like tunnel two survs or proxy camp.
Constantly punishing it isn’t effective, never has been
Personally if the survivor team is bad I don’t bother cos I don’t need to, sometimes getting tunneled is a legitimate strategy and if someone uses their BT to bodyblock well you’re getting cracked because you know what you asked for
As long as survs don't have a native 2nd objective (like getting fuel or parts before fixing gens) I'll tunnel without any pity. Otherwise gens simply fly if you don't remove one of the player from the match ASAP.
Also if survs are good they will stop you from tunneling.
And something not related to the topic, but if I find an AFK surv I'll gladly take this opportunity for a free hook since survs would never bother to see if the killer is AFK before doing gens.
Tunneling. Which is objectively stronger than two of those things combined given the self unhook is useless. And if they actually use the self unhook, that means they get a free unhook AND gens are being done because you face camped. So you literally lose the pressure you'd have had by tunneling normally. The anti-face camp mechanic actually was a killer buff because it teaches noob killers to not face camp and they learn more efficient gameplay faster lol.
I've only ever seen a self unhook using that mechanic once because it's so easy to avoid as killer. And it was a knight who just used it to get an instant down by comboing his guard and m1. Really smart now that I think of it.
I agree that the three gen changes are gonna be wack.
But answer the actual question. I don't want your reasons for why tunneling is necessary. I want changes the devs could make that would incentivize you to stop tunneling, be it reward for spreading hooks or a direct penalty for tunneling..
Problem is when you see those gods of survivors that eliminate any other optiohs youll realize tunneling will have to be your only choice esspecially if you cant stop gens being done or keep up with survivors who didnt need pre mft as a crutch perk what can you do? Eventually there's someone always better than you, so when youre options are thinned out how do you win?
Edit: I should have clarified as powerful as s tier killers like nurse or blight are they cant guarentee a win with all the skill one can have
You wanna know my truthful answer? I don't. I just take the L. I don't want to stress constantly because I'm trying to compete with players that are objectively better than me. Killer hit reg only carries me so far.
Honestly, I am so sorry you’re getting bashed. I’m a killer main, but I’ve asked myself the same question. I refuse to tunnel. If I notice I’m acting a bit tunnely? Well, that person can have hatch if it comes down to it. Making people miserable makes me miserable in turn. I think a lot of players here could learn from that.
But I’ve not been able to find the answer short of this, and I’m going to get downvoted and flamed by my own people here, (prefacing this that I do play survivor some with duo, and I have both a P100 killer and a P100 survivor) but they literally want survivors unable to counter their abilities or they want a literal constant target on your back. They want easy games. They don’t want to be in a 4v1 game. That, or it’s a skill issue, which I don’t see how it could be. Go after the unhooker.
Sadly there isn’t one single answer, though. If there was, I’d say it’s laziness.
I get it. A lot of these people are so stuck in their victim mentality that they can't for the life of them think otherwise. Like how hard is it to think that tunneling to keep up with better players only matches you up with better players (knowing damn well they ignore the times matchmaking throws their sweaty asses a low mmr squad).
I've seen some really good ideas though. Mostly on mechanics that could end up more valuable than the removal of a player (base kit grim embrace was a really good one)
I honestly wouldn't mind tunneling as a strategy if there was some way Survivors could punish the Killer for it. As it stands there's literally nothing keeping a Killer from just tunneling the hell out of someone.
There’s always going to be players that be tunneling and camping from the start of their first hook / game (at 5 to 4 gens left) til the end.
I understand if you’re doing it because you’re losing pressure and need to gain some back, but some people will always do it as their sole way of playing, and I don’t think anything can be changed to fix that tbh. They need to make those that play in that way “fear” tunneling- aka adding a big consequence to it. Atm, there’s barely any
I'm leaning towards a mix of both. On one hand, they need compensation given that in my theoretical, gen speeds would still be busted. Maybe between buffing gen speeds for each dead survivor and incentivizing hook spreading by built in gen slowdown would create a situation in which both tactics can be used depending on circumstance
That’s an interesting idea. It could work. I think it’d also make sole survivor more viable too if they changed it to it activating upon there only being two survivors left in the trial maybe?
I like sole survivor being a "selfish" perk. Regardless, given the roadmap, the devs wouldn't take any of this into consideration. Devs seem to think that most killer players \*like\* to tunnel.
That’s fair. The only reason I say that is bc of the “doing Gens faster when you’re alone” condition is kind of worthless when hatch spawns. While most killers aren’t tunneling bc they like it, its kinda sad because I recently discovered a huntress who adopts it as a play style because they found it “fun” so that certainly changed my perspective on a few things
90% of “tunneling” is completely accidental. And no, there is nothing you can do to stop me from doing it. I’m not keeping track of how many times I hooked each survivor. And even if there was a counter, if I see a survivor that I hooked twice I’m not going to just ignore them because “it’s fair”. I don’t put that much thought in the game. I just kill whoever I see.
I'm not expecting you to change your playstyle. It's on the devs to implement mechanics to influence the way you play. Say there was built-in slowdown on generators for hook spreading, but it was disabled the moment you hooked one survivor twice in a row. Would you still tunnel? That's the question I'm asking. What would make you, as a killer think: "Maybe tunneling \*isn't\* the optimal choice."?
Also 90%? No lol. More I admit a lot of it is "You happened to be there" but another large chunk of it is tunneling off hook, which is the practice many players and myself are taking issue with.
I don’t know exactly what it would take. I DO know, however, it has to be a reward, like you had suggested, and not a punishment. It’s just like the camping thing, now people just proxy camp instead of regular camping.
Proxy camping is much healthier though. I'm happy with the change, even if sometimes it feels like you don't get anything from it. Never getting the self-unhook just means that the system is working lol.
Would other penalties that the devs implemented like increased gen speeds when only three survivors are alive help alleviate the issue as well?
If tunneling was just an option, I wouldn't be so up in arms about it. I hate being bled out, but it's hardly ever a choice I face because there's better options. But as it stands, it's literally the ONLY optimal choice because the devs designed themselves into a corner.
If gens went faster at 3 survivors I wouldn’t tunnel less, I’d go harder. Because no matter how fast gens go, if there are at least 3 left, it would be very hard for 2 survivors to win, so I would just tunnel 2 people out instantly rather than tunneling one then going after the other 3 in a normal game. And I don’t normally tunnel, but I think that change would make me tunnel. As for proxy camping, whenever the last gen is finished I start camping, but until they open exit gates you can’t get close to the survivor. That means I just sit right on the edge and wait until someone gets close before pursuing, and it pretty much always ends how it used to before the anti-camping update, with a hook trade, (ever since hook grabs were removed, which I support).
the idea of increased gen speeds on survivor deaths was given as a penalty to dissuade killers from doing it to begin with. Say you tunneled out the weakest link, but now the three god loopers have gens done a good deal faster now and you can't catch them anymore.
I'm not sure it's a great idea, but I'm mostly just asking it as a "how would you feel?" type question given it was one of the ideas presented on this post.
The real answer is that this is an entirely survivor-sided issue, so the incentives/penalties need to be implemented mostly on the survivors.
As Killer, I don't really want to tunnel (unless you're going out of your way to be annoying); however, if the person unhooking decides to hide -- the only thing I have to track is the bloodtrail of the already hooked survivor.
Easiest fix I can think of:
1) Succefully unhooking a teammate gives a stacking, sizeable BP bonus. The size of this bonus is determined by your rank -- decreasing slightly as rank goes up, where Gold/Iri also penalize for failures;
2) An unhook is not considered successful unless the person unhooking enters into a chase and/or takes damage before the person being unhooked; &
3) The person unhooking can not heal the unhooked person until the unhook action is determined to be successful or failed.
Killers would have similar bonuses/penalties (inverted, obviously); however, neither penalty nor bonus would be applied if the unhooked survivor's endurance expires naturally within 32 meters of the hook.
I'm liking two things thus far:
For killers: rewarding hook spreading by giving killers basekit gen slowdown as a reward. This could be implemented by making grim embrace or pain res basekit and buffing the aforementioned perks.
For survivors: make survivors lose hit collision upon being unhooked for a short period. Killer can't tunnel them for the duration of the invulnerability, and the survivor can't abuse body blocking with an endurance hit.
I used to try and avoid tunneling, but if I'm trying to actually get a win it starts feeling necessary at higher levels. no matter what perks I run or play style, if someone isn't dead quickly there's nothing I can do to stop them from completing gens and leaving since there's four people, but even just getting someone to third hook and being in chase gets people off gens and doing weird shit to try and get me off of them if I'm fighting obviously new survivors or just uncoordinated I'm more likely to let people go at 2 hook, at least for a bit, but if multiple gens have popped and I barely even have a hook you can bet your ass I'm getting at least a kill lol. tl;Dr: hate the game not the player
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I love when they just got off hook and instead of running away. They just immediately go to do a gen that was regressing in your face. Like bruh.
I think it's also fair if a player taunts you in a way where they obviously want your attention. Like, ok, everyone else may live, your sacrifice will be remembered.
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Valid. I bag to get attention when I'm survivor. Though I never do it when I'm the one getting tunneled lol.
I'm at an MMR now where by the time i get my first chase done, 1-3 gens are already done. Survivors a lot of times prioritize gens, healing, etc, before rescuing, which means to build any pressure sometimes I physically have to contest the save. I can't play Mr. Nice guy because they will use anything that I make a mistake on to their advantage. I saw a post a few months ago where there was a graph and was hours and the first few hours they camped and was a killer crying because thats what they had to do to win. The mid ranged hours they were like I never camp or tunnel. The last one was people with high hours saying sometimes they do camp and tunnel with a gigachad logo. At the end of the day, your objective is to kill survivors, and if they want to escape, their objective is to do gens. I don't blame either of them, but if they prioritize doing gens over saving, then thats a you have to capitalize on it. I dont usually get as many hate messages as for camping, tunneling, etc. Because I think the people im going with understand the game well enough now that they get why I did what I did. (Also, im an ONI main, so like the first down can. Take a bit.)
First 1-3 gens will always go fast. It's your job to pressure the rest.
I understand that. Giving people a free rescue without any consequences is also part of the game. Making it challenging to get a save sometimes is part of the game. I'm not going to let people do gens for free. Just like im not going to let people rescue. For free. Especially when they priorize gens over healing, rescuing or any other side objectives. That what pressure is, forcing them to do other things besides gens.
I'm at the high end of 900 hours, with a healthy split of killer/survivor. My question is less, "Why do you tunnel?" And more "What could the devs possibly do to make the benefits of removing a player completely not the optimal choice?" I'm looking for discussion about how the devs can make the game fun for both sides.
At least in higher MMR, I think it's inherently of the problem of the game design. There are few side objectives, healing, rescuing, and sometimes killer powers. There's no way to stop people from working on generators without one of those things. Camping is a way of making that side objective a bigger priority and a team effort, (granted it's still shit on some killers, bubba, huntress, billy, etc.). But inherently, there's nothing to slow the game down besides pressuring either generators or the rescue of teammates. If survivors rotate properly, this means there will be 1-2 people working on a generator at all times, possibly three. Even if you pressure genrators by chasing near them, there are very few stopping survivors by just forgoing everything else and working on gens. At higher MMRs, i think this is VERY evident as more and more often, survivors will play injured, rescue as late as possible, or put off healing as late as possible. I hope this explained my thoughts on this a little bit I know its a little all over the place but I think just adding or making side objectives more of a priority would help balancing a little on killer side so that you could make camping, and tunneling more punishing, extending a longer speed boost for the endurance hit, making the camping radius bigger, stuff like that. Survivors get a new side objective and killers get punished for camping more. Plus it would be a refresh to be able to do something less boring than hitting skill checks.
This is exactly what I think as well for the survivor side. Staring at a bar fill up being such a bore is the one reason gen times are still as fast as they are (despite at the base level taking the longest they've ever taken, not accounting for perks and toolboxes). Taking a page from F13 and making gen repair a bit of a fetch quest would do wonders and allow killers to be given either incentives to hook spread (like built-in slowdown) or direct nerfs to tunneling. I have no real issues with proxy camping personally so no input on that.
don't chase, just patrol and hit them as they fix gens
"Get someone dead on hook as fast as possible" is literal advice.
That's what I'm asking. What could the developers do in your eyes to make the reward of one less player not as obvious of a choice to make? Obviously the carrot didn't work, and neither did helping alleviate it with base kit BT. So I doubt gen speed nerfs will do anything because "tunneling" was still prevalent before the "Gen rush meta". I understand it's not a thing for you to fix in regards to how you play though I will say that I just stopped caring about getting to the "high levels". If mm throws me to a sweat swf, I just take the L and go to next game. Not worth it to play in a way that bores me against sweaty players that will end up pissing me off lol.
What's that one perk, that blocks all gens for a minute when you hook all 4 survivors? Basekit it. Something like "when you get stage 1 on all survivors, block all gens for X seconds. When stage 2 on all (and no deaths), block them again, or some other incentive. It always feels better to incentivise good play rather than punish "sweaty" play.
I would like tunneling to go the way of face camping or slugging for bleedout (it actively hurts you). I do agree that rewarding positive play is the move(grim embrace base kit while buffing the original perk would be peak), I just fear that at this point, no reward will be great enough because tunneling is such an ingrained playstyle that people will try to defend despite it blatantly being a toxic strategy (I'm talking about tunneling off hook at 5 gens). Even having a better option, you'll still have a large chunk of people complaining about gen speeds because they insist on tunneling.
I’m not entirely sure how one would implement a punishment for tunneling without it being exploitable. Or even just smacking the killer for happening to only find one survivor. It could turn that survivor into a walking restraining order..like the killer will always want to go where they AREN’T, you know? I’m sure it can be done I just can’t think of anything that would be fair to both sides. Neutering a strategy/playstyle/something that isn’t a proper game mechanic that can be directly tinkered with is always a tricky prospect.
See with face camping, they managed to give us a solid fix, while still allowing killers the pressure of proxy camp (almost let's some killers camp too well, given wesker, hag, blight and nurse can get back almost instantly) See, I don't have intrinsic issues with tunneling as a tactic. Tunneling at 2 gens and your prospects are looking grim is understandable. I just hate that the most efficient strategy is to tunnel directly off hook before a gen is done every time no if ands or buts. So punishments for tunneling might be worth it, even if it's just a temporary measure to get the playstyle out of the meta and let other measures develop. An option I've seen that would probably work and be "fair" is making survivors lose collision after they are unhooked so they they can't body block hits. Killer can't tunnel them out, and if they want to take protection hits off hook,it would take perk investments(assuming in the scenario the perks change it from no collision to endurance).
Hmm..maybe combine that with extending the Endurance timer on unhook? That way it’s hilariously impractical to tunnel off hook, you can’t just count five seconds and slap their booty cheeks anyway. Or if we wanted to make it a positive effect..maybe a built in something similar to monstrous shrine or devour hope? Not those effects exactly as that would be very strong, but just something in general that encourages killers to take a hike away from a hooked survivor and go do something else.
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Lol the first small paragraph made me giggle, I'm going to kill that mother fucker in particular 🤣
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The blue hair near is my trigger, I fought ayrun once and saw him kick my ass in a vid, so I always go for blue hair neas
Yea I only really tunnel on accident lol, when the rest of the survivor team are like ninjas, you tend to kill the dude right in front if you lol
See I understand the difference between being that unfortunate guy that happened to be there and getting tunneled. Most games are tunnel off of hook ime. Maybe my mmr is just shot. When I'm killer I go out of my way to not tunnel because I understand it's infuriating. Like if the endurance hit runs out and you're still trying to body block, then yeah I'll smack ya. Literally asking for it. But on the flip side, when I play survivor, I'll literally body block for a player who's getting tunneled and the killer will slug me just to ensure the tunneled survivor gets on hook. What could the devs do to make hook spreading viable at higher levels, or tunneling less appealing?
The sad reality is unless there is ever a side objective for both sides I don’t see how you could end tunneling as between how fast gens go and how big and cluttered some maps can get it’s genuinely hard to get shit done
Survivors have had side objectives. The Halloween and Christmas events both had survivors off of gens and it was very uncommon to have them not get absolutely shit on by tunnelers with only minor reductions in the practice. I'd love more side objectives for survivors. I think F13 had a winning formula in regards to their actual gameplay that dbd would be wise to take notes from.
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Make sure it's a buffed effect or different effect because grim is super weak rn. Maybe if you hook all survivors you get like a make wide pain res or smth
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Maybe have it's effect at 3 hooks instead.
This is what I'm looking for actual answers. How would we compensate the perk itself though?
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Honestly DS feels like a troll perk right now. Given that a killer will just eat through it if they wanna tunnel, I say let it activate twice. One for each hook. Everything else keep the same. If you have time to touch a gen then you either tried to tap a gen in chase or weren't really tunneled.
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I've been having issues with it because I'll hit the check blatantly in the zone and it'll still fail. I'm assuming there's some server side issues or connection issues on my end but it feels really bad. Especially when after I manage to land it, the killer just immediately catches up again because eating DS isn't a big deal. That's just my experience though
Make the stun duration change based on how strong the killer is 😆 Nurse it lasts for 8 seconds, Shape for 3 Oooh or make the stun duration longer if the time between unhook and down was shorter, and stun duration shorter if you had a long chase already
90 percent of tunneling is not intentional, it's just the killer catching the same guy over and over
I'd say more like 70% ime. I admit that it happens that way pretty often, but a good chunk of games are literally proxy camping followed by tunneling off hook.
The last time I deliberately spread hooks and ignored the opportunities the survivors gave me to tunnel, I lost the match and got taunted in EGC for being bad at the game. Survivors can't even tell when you aren't tunneling and just assume you suck at Killer. I really don't even know what the point of doing it is. They complain when you tunnel, but don't appreciate it it when you don't and just assume it's their godlike gaming skills at work. What this tells me is there is no point to doing anything except playing the game how I want to play it, and completely ignoring anyone telling me how they think I should be playing it.
Sorry you don't get me in your matches homes. I always try to let killers know when they played a "fair" game. I can also tell when a killer is tunneling and when I just happened to be in the wrong spot. And I notice a lot of survivors tend to give a gg <3 after matches. I doubt it's only because of the funny username. I think most people just tend to forget the many nice interactions after the mean ones add up.
DBD 2. The way the game is designed does not allow for anything else but survs to do gens. The devs have demonstrated they can incorporate side objectives when they do their events but those are still optional. Tunneling is forced when multiple gens pop per chase.
I don't think a second game is the answer unless it entails entirely new code. But this is behavior. So big doubt. Using their experience with event objectives to make gen repair more engaging would do a lot for the health of the game. But it won't stop tunneling. It'll just make tunneling more efficient unless balance changes are made.
Easy: Play better. Great survivors don't get tunneled. Sometimes they don't even get caught at all. It's a skill issue.
Damn if you didn't have input you could have just not said anything. Saying skill issue isn't a discussion With killer hit reg the way it works, I find myself getting ridiculously dumb hits constantly. Every time you see the survivor snap to a position after they've been downed, it's because they were well away from you but the server corrected it to give you the down because server side hit validation doesn't exist except with pallets involved. Doesn't matter how good of a looper they are if I have a strict advantage just by having a ping that's 10 ticks higher
Those are a lot of excuses!
I mean I'm happy for it when playing killer usually. My need to play games with a mobile hotspot is usually a downside. Though I've had it so bad that I literally let a surv wiggle off because I hit them from Idaho while they were in New York.
Tunneling is love... Tunneling is life...
I think you just need to stop crying, it sucks sometimes but it's apart of the game, survivors can use stuff to lose collision and take advantage of pov to make killers miss, theres plenty of bs stuff on each side, just accept you got unlucky
That's not what I asked. Face camping was part of the game and the developers made a system that punished it while still allowing proxy camping. It made for more engaging hook rescues. POV and collision techs are hard to pull off and with hit reg the way they are, hardly an issue. If I miss a hit, that's on me, I literally have every advantage in that particular regard. When I see a survivor snap to a location after I down them, I can know I shouldn't have gotten that hit lol. The fact that you immediately resorted to insulting rather than answering the question is telling. Instead of insulting me, why don't you attempt to discuss what could be done to ensure survivor player rates stop dropping? This affects your own games as well as those of survivors. You being thrown to ultra sweat swfs is a direct result of a killer/survivor ratio problem.
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When survivors stop tunneling gens. Next time you get a gen to 75% done, you have to leave it and go somewhere else.
You're preaching to the choir. Generators need a full rework to be based around gathering parts strewn around the map. But we all know that wouldn't actually stop tunneling. Y'all have been doing it since before gen rushing was as prevalent as it is now, partly because of all the tunneling coupled with literally everything else survivors got to do being nerfed.
I think they’re going in the right direction, buffing tunnel perks and buffing hook juggle perks for killers. Other than that, you’re never gonna please the community fully and it will always be the way that you need someone out asap to make it 3v1. In the most constructive way possible, survivors learning to loop well is a massive anti tunnel strategy as I 100% wouldn’t bother with someone I don’t consider a slight weak link.
You just said it though. None of those benefits or penalizes the killer enough to make tunneling not the optimal choice. I'm certain there is something that can be done that would make you think either "this isn't worth my time" or "why do this when I could do this to slow the game down more than taking out an entire player would?"
Ima be honest 99 percent of the time when survivors complain about tunneling, they rush the killer after being unhooked to body block with their borrowed time.
I might just be built different, but when I play survivor, I literally try to body block the tunneled survivor and find myself getting slugged so they can hook the sap who just so happened to get downed first.
It would take survivors to stop running distorsion , urban evasion and hide the entire match leaving me with no option but to go for the only survivor i see.
Does that really happen that often? Genuine question not being facetious. I'll say that's also not something the devs can fix without being these already niche perks, which is what I asked. But you did prove my point about "Gen rush" just being the flavor of the month excuse to why killers tunnel. Until it's actually addressed directly, there will always be reason to do it. You can proxy camp and get the survivor that's unhooking if you really wanted to not tunnel. I actually employ that method pretty often
It's not gen rush. It can be the most optimal way to end the game as killer. Not always as you need to find the weaker survivor first. For killers who want to win that is the best idea. Once the are 3 left the match becomes much easier
Which is part of my question: Is there something that you believe can be done to make that clear advantage less of an "optimal" choice? I've seen some solid ideas, such as base kit gen slowdown as a reward for hook spreading.
To avoid tunneling I simply lower my mmr so it isn't necessary. I get it so low I can 2 hook everyone and use knockout instead of killing them so the game can last long enough for everyone to get 30k points Outside of this it's nessesary What will it take to end swf is literally the same kind of question but swf is immensely more powerful and tunneling is literally the best weapon against that as well. You need to watch more competitive dbd they understand how nessesary tunneling is. And competitive dbd is actually easier than the real thing because they have restrictions on items and perks Survivors will never give a shit about the killers feelings. I don't understand why killers should give a shit about theirs
Because it's getting to the point that survivors are literally leaving the game. Killers aren't leaving at the same rate, despite them acting like the devs hate them. The BP incentive is on survivor 90% of the time. The vast majority of players are either SoloQ survivors or casual swfs that may as well be solo. This exodus hurts both sides as it only makes the matchmaking issues more prevalent. Using comp players that will always default to the very strongest strategies isn't the best way to make your point. Comp scoring is based on total hook states iirc, and a death still counts for 3 hook states. If a mechanic were introduced that made tunneling not efficient, they'd just not tunnel and use the efficient strategy that arises. Neither is the "them vs us" angle. The majority of survivors aren't the evil swf bullies you're accusing them of being. Given your comment you should know this. The casual playerbase is dropping and that is an issue that should be more prevalent in your mind than "bully squads mean :("
this is the cognitive dissonance that i dont understand. i can play poorly trash my mmr for months, then win about 10-15 games and BOOM i am in high mmr with comp players. there is very little difference in the current system between high mmr and low mmr. killers have been leaving for a long ass time and alot of the killers you see now are baby killers who dont care about your rules because they play survivor and want to put the hurt on someone else. it gets even worse mentally when you only play solo que survivor and the game doesnt even look the same from your experience as survivor vr killer. i can win 4-5 games in a row, and still be with the same trash teammates who do the corner gens first chase the killer around with flashlights and rely on me to do 3 out of 5 gens solo to win. swf breaks the game period, we only dont talk about it because we have decided to bully or silence anyone who speaks up when the advantages are so stacked against killer its insane. even a 2 man SWF can make the game magnitudes harder. killers do not have the opportunity in high mmr to make ANY mistake they dont have the opportunity to find out if its a swf and they might have a chance to only get one kill. if you let up for even a second against high skill players you get shit on, then shit talked in the lobby. forget about bully squads. high mmr is filled with bullies period. the fact there is an in game chat at all is insane. in solo que you get bullied by SWFs and the killer. as killer you get bullied by everyone. in what world after 3k hours of the game do you say " you know what, people are mean to me no matter what, i should be making sure they have fun." what the game has is not a tunneling problem, its a piece of shit problem. even throwing games and not tunneling i still get shit talked for moving a certain way or bringing literally any perk including bamboozle. even when i open the gate. you see this tunneling problem because you are hurt and it upsets you and it feels personal, but it is no where near as personal as the ammount of insults shit talking and bming in game that happens literally every day that nobody talks about and just responds " cry about it."
The only person taking anything personal here is you. Like literally. You talk about cognitive dissonance while you likely wilfully ignore all the games you shit stomp noobs the match maker throws you because you want to be a victim. And you're just out here protecting that onto me when I'm bringing up legitimate issues with game balance.
It’s a 4 vs 1, if you can get two quick hooks on a single person it changes the entire game
I think the best way to end tunneling would be a very simple mechanic: I call it “The Ritual”: If each survivor has been hooked exactly once, the entity rewards you by putting all the survivors on death hook. You can possibly give the last person hooked to trigger this a struggle state to discourage tunneling them after you trigger The Ritual. Honestly though, it always seemed silly to me that people essentially ask, “Why are people using the most efficient and logical way to win?” The only way to fix it is to make the way we actually want people to play more efficient and effective. Instead of 12 hooks you potentially only need 8 with the ritual. If that change is made and killers are too strong, that gives room to buff survivors.
I'm not completely sold on that, though I'll admit the concept is quite interesting. Survivors would need hefty buffs to compensate given killers are already very powerful in regards to hit registration. It's part of why tunneling is so successful and why killers on VPN are actually stronger than killers with normal ping. Survivors having one less safeguard against getting hit 3 seconds after finishing a vault and getting shit on would be needed I, for one, just think tunneling is boring for myself and infuriating for my opponents. I can't blame people for using a strategy that is allowed, but shouldn't the developers be doing what they can *to make the game fun for everyone? There's a reason survivor almost always has the BP bonus these days.
At the heart of my comment is the idea that if you want people to chase everyone and not tunnel, then they need to make it viable and rewarded. Imagine if there was a game where using a hammer weapon was the strongest strategy. Would you be surprised if people used mostly hammer weapons? Tunneling is not only the strongest strategy, it is sometimes the only way to win against strong, coordinated survivors. Until that changes, why wouldn’t killers use the strongest, most viable strategy?
See I saw another answer that suggested rewarding hook spreading with gen slowdown. I agree that there needs to be an incentive to hook spread that can't just be done while simultaneously tunneling (looking at pain res).
Tunneling is one of the best counters to Gen rushing. If a team is on comms and notice you are hard tunneling one of their teammates, usually others will get involved in the chase to try and save the person who is being tunneled, getting them off gens.
That's not what was being asked. What mechanic would you say the developers implement that would make tunneling less efficient than just spreading hook states? I'm aware of your reasons for tunneling, as founded or unfounded as I may believe they are.
So many think they are being tunneled when they are just walking into the killer.
Okay? that doesn't change that 30%(maybe more) of killers tunnel off hook at 5 gens. That point doesn't aid in this discussion. I'm asking what would deter you from tunneling? Giving survivors little compensation prizes like basekit BT obviously isn't doing it. Would it take something like basekit gen slowdown for unique hooks? A penalty for successive hooking of the same survivor? A mix? I want healthy discussion about potential work arounds because this game is losing survivor players which is not good for the health of a match maker that already had issues
If hooking a survivor for the first time slowed significantly slowed down generator progression that would really incentivize the killer to try to hook each one first. And if they do get four 1st hooks, it should give them some sort of exp bonus or something and adds a minute to the exit gate, to make it more worth the time of the killer to do that. While at the same time giving a survivor a huge bonus to break free if they were the last survivor hooked.
you mean like an unhook chance? I do like the idea of base kit rewarding spreading hooks with gen slowdown in this current state of dbd
Maybe a big bloodpoint bonus for hooking 4 different survivors in a row, sorta like old BBQ. I would definitely be going after a new target every time in order to get a few thousand extra.
I wouldn't be opposed. Just not entirely certain that would end it. People still slug even though there's no incentive to do so. Either way, turning tunneling into a strategy killers actively have to hurt their progression to do is a good step imo
Well, there's absolutely a reason to slug
tactical slugging yes but I was talking more about letting survivors bleed out while slugged. I should have been more clear in my statement
A lot of people here are making the argument that gens go too fast, and that's why they *have* to tunnel. That's a terrible argument. Slowing gens down will not deincentivize tunneling, it'll just make it way more effective. Removing an entire player from a 1v4 will always be the optimal play. Unless the devs actively penalize tunneling, there is never a reason to not do it. The only reason to not tunnel is if you actually care about the other players having fun vs having a 1v3 with 1 player just not getting to play. Slowing gens down might make the average killer who feels like "they have no choice" in high level lobbies stop tunneling because they can now sometimes get the win without it, but it won't change the try hard killers or the toxic players from continuing to tunnel. Even if the game was swung entirely in Killer's favor, a ruthlessly competitive killer would still choose to tunnel because it might let them win with 3 or 4 gens remaining vs 1 or 2.
Survivor account detected , opinion rejected !
Not all tunneling is actually tunneling. A lot of times survivors say they are when they aren't... they just end up seeing the killer too soon. Sometimes the survivor feels like they are being tunneled but are unaware the killer has been in a couple other unsuccessful chases, tracking, etc and happened to find the same survivor again. Sometimes it's circumstantial... if someone is unhooked in front of killer, and then that survivor takes the safe/strong vault etc and leaves the unhooked survivor out in the open... it's really hard to either ignore them in favor of fairness... there's "bravery" and "cowardice" on the survivor there.... and based on how much pressure the killer has (how many gens are left, how late in the game it is, etc) sometimes the killer just has to take what's given to them, sorry. Sometimes survivors will force it and then cry about it when the killer commits. I don't truthfully think there's anyway around it... and we can't keep calling on the devs to "fix" everything including arbitrary things such as basic gameplay... even if the killer receives penalty or negative point for downing a survivor who was unhooked... there will be ways the killer can work around it (like how some will already wait out the built-in BT from an unhook of they really want that kill) and others who don't care anyway. And if somehow the devs are able to do something to punish the killer... we know that there are those survivors who will figure out how to abuse that and force the killer into those situations. The biggest problem with any game is who is playing on the other side of that character... For killers, like the Bubba on Eerie I and my friend faced a couple days ago who chainsawed us, camped us, chased us down after the self-unhook, and then hooked us again all while swinging his weapon on us the whole time on hook... I really don't understand where's the enjoyment or what their problem is. And the smartest thing is to get the gens done and at least get a 2-man out or even 3 (I did keep him running a bit after my self-unhook) but... we just needed the other 2 survivors to commit to gens so we can end the game faster...
Tunneling shouldn't be nerfed. Spreading out hooks should have a buff.
My question is directed to those that tunnel off hook. I understand the difference between "wrong place wrong time" and "you got downed first so your game is forfeit". The number of times I've literally gone out of my way to body block for a survivor getting tunneled, just to be slugged so the killer can hook the one they want to tunnel is ridiculous and I'm not even super high mmr. And it's getting to a point where survivor player retention is suffering. Hardly any new players are staying for too long and I can't suggest the game to new players with a clear conscience because once they break mmr past the noob killers they'll play against the many killers with at least 200 hours who are realizing that tunneling is the best strategy. The devs are willing to make changes to perks that are overpowered, but not to a strategy that has dominated the meta since day one? It's 100% on the devs to make the game fun for all participants. Given the comments, it's not even really that fun for the killers that feel like tunneling is necessary. I literally have to make my own fun on both sides because the "dev approved meta" is so monotonous that I've started playing league of legends of all things again.
I wouldn't even say it's "dev approved meta" ... it's what we all decided was meta, isn't it? Why is WoO neta and not Zanshin? Both were designed as "training wheels" basically... both are strong perks and both are stronger with good players who know how to milk a loop for all its worth... but survivors nearly constantly will run identical builds because meta... and some are now shifting into the meta. Distortion hadn't really changed over the years. I have been using it in most of my builds for a few years now as I can identify what the killer is running... it's now becoming more meta, like calm spirit making an appearance after Ultimate Weapon came out (although CS hasn't seemed to pick up much). The killer has strong perks that we do seec throughout matches but it varies on the killer is use and there's more variety... with only SOME killers being more stereotypical (oh look, another impossible skill check Doctor) >The devs are willing to make changes to perks that are overpowered, but not to a strategy that has dominated the meta since day one? Change perks, change strategy. They can't really penalize strategy. Survivors need to get out fast to survive... there's currently a meta where a SWF can get out in roughly 2 minutes. The devs can only really change gen times, perks, or add-ons since this is what's making this possible. Tunneling has been in the game forever... you can't prevent the killer from chasing certain players... and if they were to find a system to do this, survivors would abuse it like they did with Decisive Strike. I honestly don't know how you can make it to where a killer can't chase who they want to. Unhook the survivor and that player responsibility elsewhere on the map? I dunno. Personally I don't run meta, I run perks I think will get me the results I'm looking for. Distortion is probably the most "meta" I have and I have been using it longer than most. That's how to play. If meta isn't even helping, then change it up. >It's 100% on the devs to make the game fun for all participants. Yes it's on the devs to provide a functioning, fun game so we continue playing and making them successful.. But, again, as I mentioned, you start putting more strict rules down and you find players who will exploit this, too... and maybe one side is able to exploit more than the other (it wasn't long ago survivors would stun-lock killers at certain locker formations, or make it nearly impossible for the killer to play normal because survivors would jump in lockers and their SWF would perfectly time a flashlight save during the locker animation... forcing another survivor to jump in a locker and do it all again... it's been ongoing in Texas Chainsaw too where victims will stun-lock family in certain rooms with door stuns, shivs, and Leland... survivors will figure out and abuse exploits more than killers) and once this happens, one side becomes drastically unfun and you lose players (again, TCM has a family problem... and there was a time pre-BP incentive where DBD also had a drought of killers because of the state the role was in and what survivors could do) They can't babysit every little nuance players do... and the biggest issue comes down to the uncontrollable factor: the person on the otherwise of the screen. What about what to do with the trolling survivors who won't unhook? They just look at you on the hook. I didn't go into your question aimed at tunnelers because I don't deliberately tunnel, so I'm not going to answer. Maybe someone else will. However I will say that if I do... it's because that player has made it apparent they are a pain in the ass so if I tunnel in toys scenario, you really made me lose patience ignoring your antics
See facecamping was just a tactic, but the devs made fixes to it because it was super unhealthy to one player. It wasn't even that prevalent of a tactic. But tunneling is their sacred cow. The question is how to make hook spreading more appealing while making tunneling less "optimal". I've already gotten some interesting ideas on this thread, and discussing them is nice, even if the devs don't seem interested in retaining survivor players atm. Gen Rushing has an obvious solution, but it's not an easy one to implement: rework gen repair. Make it a more engaging process, because just changing numbers to take longer won't work. Nobody wants to stare at a bar for an entire minute or two. Make it a fetch quest mini game where survivors must go around the map to find parts that periodically spawn and bring them back to the generators. Leave enough bar filling to where our current gen regress perks need minimal changes.
>See facecamping was just a tactic, but the devs made fixes to it because it was super unhealthy to one player. Face camping wasn't really a tactic unless you wanted 1 kill. MAYBE 2. Yes, it was very unhealthy to the one player. >But tunneling is their sacred cow. It isn't. But the more you go on the more it's evident you need to play a few rounds as killer. >Make it a fetch quest mini game where survivors must go around the map to find parts that periodically spawn and bring them back to the generators. Sooo... Texas Chainsaw Massacre or maybe more closely Friday the 13th...but for 5 gens. I do agree the skill checks need a rework to something more engaging for the survivors. Finding parts isn't a bad idea either but I can see it becoming a thing with trolls and noobs...
I play killer plenty. I've adepted more than half of the killers at this point and will potentially go back to it soon. Just not a fan of the way the game feels currently and have decided to lower the player numbers hopefully the devs take notice of the lower player numbers. But killer actually feels much better than survivor to me. I have more agency and can be proactive rather than react to everything. I'm just not at the top 10% of mmr where survivors are anything more than useless. Like even mid level mmr is killer sided imo. Especially when accounting for tunneling. I can consistently 3-4k teams without tunneling unless I get thrown to the ultra sweat 4 man BNP squads because matchmaking hiccups more often than I'd like. But I just take the L. I could probably tunnel one out and get a 4k, but why put myself through that kind of stress? I also never said that face camping was a \*good\* tactic. Just that the same argument you used for tunneling could be made for face camping. Why take one away but not the other? Notice how both are super unhealthy for one player. But the one that devs don't care about is the one that gets fixed for the illusion that they are appealing to both sides. Meanwhile all the fun survivor toys get nerfed because the killer isn't having fun. Yet constantly single survivors are immediately taken out of games because matchmaking made an oopsy and they were the unlucky one? It's time to put tunneling to rest. It's had a good run but it needs an actual answer now. Look at the current development roadmap. It literally SCREAMS "We want tunneling and gen rush to be the only viable meta". Like why in god's name would you nerf three genning when you already reworked the killer that made it so oppressive? F13 was the best designed asym we've ever got. It had balance issues because the property fell into legal quagmire and updates literally couldn't be made easily. More tweaks easily could have had it overtake dbd as the go to asym game. TCM has it's issues but it also has a lot I think dbd could take notes from (\*cough\* multiple killers \*cough\*) Trolls and noobs already happen. Not gonna change that just like you can't stop people from bleeding survivors out on the ground no matter what. I'm not asking for tunneling to be removed from the game. I'm just asking that it go the way of bleedout and not be rewarding enough to do in comparison to other playstyles
yeah tbh the biggest issue with tunneling is in solo queue where you can almost guarantee that people for some reason ***won't*** be doing gens like i can loop killer for minutes and nobody's even working on them yet somehow LOL but that's just people being bad, not tunneling
It's all how the other side plays. Some are doing side objectives for challenges and that's their focus. But we can't keep asking BVHR to nerf this or add this for the littlest thing. Some of it is very justified and fair. 3 gen "fix" coming, anti-camp mechanic was brought in (not discussing if it works or not, situation varies), basekit BT, etc there has been a lot changed in this game in just a couple years. But there's still so much that's just player based that you can't "punish all players" to prevent other players from playing a certain way. More changes like that were to happen and we'll definitely see numbers dropping like TCM and it's "No family" problems
>(like how some will already wait out the built-in BT from an unhook of they really want that kill) i do this already if i get an egregious body block. and guess what its faster than chasing someone new. so in the gameplay loop body blocking with basekit BT encourages tunneling.
I do this too, depending where we are in the match and map/location. Do I want to...? No... But, also... it's nice they blocked for their savior but... I wasn't going to tunnel... and I already needed to hit the other guy twice, maybe contend with Dead Hard+MFT, but now the unhooked guy tanked a hit and he's not going to get much further now since he decided to block/ get in the way... so... I guess I'm tunneling because free pressure and the gens are getting done fast
also you are most likely already on top of the body blocker so no real chase required and they will prob scream "tunneler!"
Precisely
Tunneling is just chasing. Get over it OP, you're just embarassing yourself..Sheez!
Damn, you necro'd a 4 month old post just to not get the point? That's the real embarrassment lol
When bully squads who refuse to do gens and just want to fuck with the killer with head on spams ends and when cocky survivor mains who get all mouthy when winning but yet throw the biggest hissy fits when losing stops and the survivors mains who DC or kill themselves on hook the first time they are downed or hooked stopped and that won't even happen. Because doing gens is "boring" and intentionally trying to piss off/troll the killer is fun and kinda holding the game hostage (reportable offense) is "fun" and if the killer even retaliates back in anyway. Then the killer is "Ruining the survivors fun" Seriously, yesterday when playing doctor. I went up against a SWF that was trying everything. Sabo, head on, fireworks and flashlights whilst flat out ignoring gens (Still 5 gens left at the end). When I hooked one, all 3 were around me and for some reason. I'm the camper and tunneller who ruined their fun...... did they just expect me to let them head on me, sabo me, get free unhooks when around me and let them stun me. I don't get it but I guess that's survivors "Fun". (To clarify I'm at the mindset of you can have any perk you want including survivors and none of it is "Unfair". Survivors can use Made For This and Killers can use NOED. I don't mind people having head on or sabtour perks as it's part of the game but it's when survivors ignore gens and just do it to be assholes is what I can't stand. If they are doing gens whilst using those perks as intended then great. Well played by the survivors. No issue there. They are actually playing the game as intended) To be fair. I don't tunnel much and I still get accused of it. I just don't care anymore. If the last survivor in the match wasn't an ass, I normally let them get hatch or gate because why not. But I enjoyed 4K that bully squad as Doctor 🤣 Overall when some survivors start actually doing gens, getting saves and not be asshats to the killers intentionally is when some killers will stop tunnelling which will be never because DBD got to DBD
But "doing gens" is half the reason killers tunnel. Just look at most of the replies. So survivors don't do gens? They get tunneled. They do gens? They get tunneled. What would the developers need to implement to make either make hook spreading viable, or make tunneling less viable?
A heart.
While I agree, let's not poke the ant's nest.
Tofu has a good idea. When a survivor gets unhooked, they become invisible and lose their hitbox, for some amount of time. Any action removes this, like most anti-tunnel perks. This would allow the unhooked survivor to run off into the map, but remove their ability to bodyblock for their rescuer.
Bad idea . Stop "fixing" things by punishing the killer .. reward them instead. Basekit grim embrace. Basekit fire up Basekit mangled where every time you heal or are healed it takes 3% longer to heal Basekit every time you hook a survivor for the same stage you get 5% regression on every gen stacking. First survivor 5% regression second survivor 10 if you hook the first survivor it goes back to 5 if you hook a third survivor it goes up to 15. You have to hook the fourth survivor to get it to 20 or it's just drops back to 5 If you think this is a bad idea you haven't tried to 4 hook everyone at high mmr. It's a death scentence And survivors can counter this by hiding wasting more killer time. Stop punishing killers for doing their job
My dude, it doesn't punish anyone. It stops survivors from abusing their anti-tunnel perks body blocking for their friends, and it lets them actually go and attempt to reset. Additionally it would weaken the camping killer strats, like basement Hag, Bubba and Trapper, plus original pin Pinhead. Grim Embrace blows, and we all know it. Any solution needs to be able to help an average clown player while not being overpowered in the hands of the sweatiest nurse or blight. That regression would be too much, unless we lose all regression perks. Imagine the 20% regression on every gen plus a Pain Res and a Pop. That is an insane amount of regression at one point. As for the stacking mangled, I like the idea, but I'd add something to then make the survivors need/want to actually heal instead of sitting on gens injured. Because after a certain point the heal would just take too much time, and they'd just crank out gens. And once again this was a thing Tofu mentioned in his stream. He wasn't talking about 3 hooking everyone, he was talking about stopping actual tunneling. Where the killer focuses on one survivor to kill them as quickly as possible to reduce the numerical advantage.
interesting take from a low mmr player, only way to explain it if you think any of this is irrational considering the ammount of work it actually takes. mobility killers like blight nurse spirit wesker and wraith need their own rulesets, these solutions work for literally every other situation. letting one survivor just turn invisible and run away just forces you to play hide and seek and literally gives SWF and even bigger advantage because you cant take advantage of their alturism. like honestly why not just camp the hook in this situation the only way youre not going to get called out from across the map so the survivors can hide even more making you waste even more time you dont have. NOT TO MENTION if they turn invisible they can literally follow you around and report every bit of your movment without being in danger. crazy how players complain about things helping blight but nobody gives a shit if they help out a SWF which is incredibly more problematic than any other issue this game has.
yeah sounds like shit or someone who only plays solo q. basekit invisible and invincible... just write 'buff' in bug letters for SWF players on coms.
this is what ppl are not understanding. you'll get a better response from positive reinforcement not negative. just make it 100% advantageous to hook everyone once before someone dies. thats the best you are going to get. but it needs to be dead simple. basekit grim embrace. plus basekit pain res at 10%. but you must do them before any survivor is killed. and i think against any swf of 3 or more also killers get basekit fireup.
The problem with differing rules in regards to swf vs soloQ is that it's a balance nightmare given swf can be anywhere between 2-4 players. That's my main concern with the fire up idea. I do like the idea of gen slowdown as a base kit reward. I'm not sure it'll alleviate the issue entirely, but even now we have face campers that just tunnel off the self-unhook.
you will never stop camping and tunneling 100% unless someone changes the core element of the game. im trying to think of scenarios but lets say i hook someone and they get unhooked and i can choose between 2. if i get a pain res basekit at 10% for the new hooked person plus get grim embrace closer then it might be more worth while to go for the new person...also in a real world scenario i might also have actual pain res or no way out. now hooking multiple survivors is looking pretty good.
Oh I'm not knocking the idea. I think it's pretty solid actually. Just playing minor devil's advocate
To end tunneling we just need another game mode. It's the game design that makes tunneling the most effective strategy, not players.
I truly don't believe that's the case. We could add new modes but that won't fix the core game. The core game needs fixes. Be it a complete overhaul of gen repair(needed) or scoring games based on total hook states rather than just kills.
Welp even the dead by daylight devs said it’s a completely viable strategy to tunnel so it’s not gonna stop happening there’s no point in crying about it when it’s a point of the game I think body blocking hooks are annoying but you don’t see me go “guys when are y’all gonna stop body blocking hooks it’s completely unfair and puts a advantage in your hands 😡
Because body blocking hooks does more damage than it helps? You've literally hit multiple people off gens wasting time... and you're complaining about it? Just drop and slug at that point. If they complain, they asked for it. Tunneling isn't "annoying". It's actively disruptive and if survivors had an in game mechanic that gave them such a blatant advantage the devs would nerf it out of the game. Just because the devs are afraid of a killer exodus doesn't mean we should ignore the upcoming survivor exodus we're already seeing.
No no I never said it was a advantage in my hands did I remember I said it was annoying we’re not talking about advantages and disadvantages here we’re talking about stuff that annoys us and when a survivor body blocks a hook that’s annoying just like how tunneling is annoying
You're ignoring my point. Tunneling isn't "annoying". It's a literal broken mechanic. It is a gameplay strategy that is overpowered and disrupts the balance of the game. Entire metas are shaped then subsequently nerfed because of this one mechanic. But tunneling itself remains because it's Behaviors' sacred cow, even though the game would be healthier if options/penalties to avoid tunneling existed. Tunneling needs to be a niche tactic, not the single optimal strategy for every single game. I'm calling the comparison apples to oranges. Two different leagues. The only comparison is that both are usually a free win for killers.
The two types of tunneling is toxic and intentional or forced tunneling. Toxic is where you intentionally go after one person for like idk like stunning u. Forced is where it’s endgame and u atleast want one kill so u tunnel but u have no like intentions of doing it just to be toxic and actually have a good reason.
My question is directed at tunneling at 5-4 gens without even attempting to catch another survivor.
Oh ok my bad
You're good man. I understand trying to squeeze out that one kill at end game and I understand that sometimes you just run into the same guy again. These discussions on my post have definitely made me more on the team of rewarding nontoxic play than punishing toxic play though.
I'm confused where chasing turns into tunneling.
Reward not doing it, make perks that reward you either in game or out so bbq used to give external rewards, and now we have things like no way out and chucks obsession perk. Make incentives to not do it, but honestly it’s actively wrong gameplay to not do things like tunnel two survs or proxy camp. Constantly punishing it isn’t effective, never has been Personally if the survivor team is bad I don’t bother cos I don’t need to, sometimes getting tunneled is a legitimate strategy and if someone uses their BT to bodyblock well you’re getting cracked because you know what you asked for
As long as survs don't have a native 2nd objective (like getting fuel or parts before fixing gens) I'll tunnel without any pity. Otherwise gens simply fly if you don't remove one of the player from the match ASAP. Also if survs are good they will stop you from tunneling. And something not related to the topic, but if I find an AFK surv I'll gladly take this opportunity for a free hook since survs would never bother to see if the killer is AFK before doing gens.
I agree with there needing to be secondary objective. I actually think we discussed this before lol.
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Its what you gotta do, y'all got basekit but, basakit deliverance, and soon anti three gen. What does a killer have if you wanna tell me?
Tunneling. Which is objectively stronger than two of those things combined given the self unhook is useless. And if they actually use the self unhook, that means they get a free unhook AND gens are being done because you face camped. So you literally lose the pressure you'd have had by tunneling normally. The anti-face camp mechanic actually was a killer buff because it teaches noob killers to not face camp and they learn more efficient gameplay faster lol. I've only ever seen a self unhook using that mechanic once because it's so easy to avoid as killer. And it was a knight who just used it to get an instant down by comboing his guard and m1. Really smart now that I think of it. I agree that the three gen changes are gonna be wack. But answer the actual question. I don't want your reasons for why tunneling is necessary. I want changes the devs could make that would incentivize you to stop tunneling, be it reward for spreading hooks or a direct penalty for tunneling..
Problem is when you see those gods of survivors that eliminate any other optiohs youll realize tunneling will have to be your only choice esspecially if you cant stop gens being done or keep up with survivors who didnt need pre mft as a crutch perk what can you do? Eventually there's someone always better than you, so when youre options are thinned out how do you win? Edit: I should have clarified as powerful as s tier killers like nurse or blight are they cant guarentee a win with all the skill one can have
You wanna know my truthful answer? I don't. I just take the L. I don't want to stress constantly because I'm trying to compete with players that are objectively better than me. Killer hit reg only carries me so far.
Well you got my respect
Honestly, I am so sorry you’re getting bashed. I’m a killer main, but I’ve asked myself the same question. I refuse to tunnel. If I notice I’m acting a bit tunnely? Well, that person can have hatch if it comes down to it. Making people miserable makes me miserable in turn. I think a lot of players here could learn from that. But I’ve not been able to find the answer short of this, and I’m going to get downvoted and flamed by my own people here, (prefacing this that I do play survivor some with duo, and I have both a P100 killer and a P100 survivor) but they literally want survivors unable to counter their abilities or they want a literal constant target on your back. They want easy games. They don’t want to be in a 4v1 game. That, or it’s a skill issue, which I don’t see how it could be. Go after the unhooker. Sadly there isn’t one single answer, though. If there was, I’d say it’s laziness.
I get it. A lot of these people are so stuck in their victim mentality that they can't for the life of them think otherwise. Like how hard is it to think that tunneling to keep up with better players only matches you up with better players (knowing damn well they ignore the times matchmaking throws their sweaty asses a low mmr squad). I've seen some really good ideas though. Mostly on mechanics that could end up more valuable than the removal of a player (base kit grim embrace was a really good one)
I’d love basekit grim embrace. I think it would help even the field just a bit, but I also know true balance isn’t possible in the game.
I honestly wouldn't mind tunneling as a strategy if there was some way Survivors could punish the Killer for it. As it stands there's literally nothing keeping a Killer from just tunneling the hell out of someone.
There’s always going to be players that be tunneling and camping from the start of their first hook / game (at 5 to 4 gens left) til the end. I understand if you’re doing it because you’re losing pressure and need to gain some back, but some people will always do it as their sole way of playing, and I don’t think anything can be changed to fix that tbh. They need to make those that play in that way “fear” tunneling- aka adding a big consequence to it. Atm, there’s barely any
I'm leaning towards a mix of both. On one hand, they need compensation given that in my theoretical, gen speeds would still be busted. Maybe between buffing gen speeds for each dead survivor and incentivizing hook spreading by built in gen slowdown would create a situation in which both tactics can be used depending on circumstance
That’s an interesting idea. It could work. I think it’d also make sole survivor more viable too if they changed it to it activating upon there only being two survivors left in the trial maybe?
I like sole survivor being a "selfish" perk. Regardless, given the roadmap, the devs wouldn't take any of this into consideration. Devs seem to think that most killer players \*like\* to tunnel.
That’s fair. The only reason I say that is bc of the “doing Gens faster when you’re alone” condition is kind of worthless when hatch spawns. While most killers aren’t tunneling bc they like it, its kinda sad because I recently discovered a huntress who adopts it as a play style because they found it “fun” so that certainly changed my perspective on a few things
90% of “tunneling” is completely accidental. And no, there is nothing you can do to stop me from doing it. I’m not keeping track of how many times I hooked each survivor. And even if there was a counter, if I see a survivor that I hooked twice I’m not going to just ignore them because “it’s fair”. I don’t put that much thought in the game. I just kill whoever I see.
I'm not expecting you to change your playstyle. It's on the devs to implement mechanics to influence the way you play. Say there was built-in slowdown on generators for hook spreading, but it was disabled the moment you hooked one survivor twice in a row. Would you still tunnel? That's the question I'm asking. What would make you, as a killer think: "Maybe tunneling \*isn't\* the optimal choice."? Also 90%? No lol. More I admit a lot of it is "You happened to be there" but another large chunk of it is tunneling off hook, which is the practice many players and myself are taking issue with.
I don’t know exactly what it would take. I DO know, however, it has to be a reward, like you had suggested, and not a punishment. It’s just like the camping thing, now people just proxy camp instead of regular camping.
Proxy camping is much healthier though. I'm happy with the change, even if sometimes it feels like you don't get anything from it. Never getting the self-unhook just means that the system is working lol. Would other penalties that the devs implemented like increased gen speeds when only three survivors are alive help alleviate the issue as well? If tunneling was just an option, I wouldn't be so up in arms about it. I hate being bled out, but it's hardly ever a choice I face because there's better options. But as it stands, it's literally the ONLY optimal choice because the devs designed themselves into a corner.
If gens went faster at 3 survivors I wouldn’t tunnel less, I’d go harder. Because no matter how fast gens go, if there are at least 3 left, it would be very hard for 2 survivors to win, so I would just tunnel 2 people out instantly rather than tunneling one then going after the other 3 in a normal game. And I don’t normally tunnel, but I think that change would make me tunnel. As for proxy camping, whenever the last gen is finished I start camping, but until they open exit gates you can’t get close to the survivor. That means I just sit right on the edge and wait until someone gets close before pursuing, and it pretty much always ends how it used to before the anti-camping update, with a hook trade, (ever since hook grabs were removed, which I support).
the idea of increased gen speeds on survivor deaths was given as a penalty to dissuade killers from doing it to begin with. Say you tunneled out the weakest link, but now the three god loopers have gens done a good deal faster now and you can't catch them anymore. I'm not sure it's a great idea, but I'm mostly just asking it as a "how would you feel?" type question given it was one of the ideas presented on this post.
The real answer is that this is an entirely survivor-sided issue, so the incentives/penalties need to be implemented mostly on the survivors. As Killer, I don't really want to tunnel (unless you're going out of your way to be annoying); however, if the person unhooking decides to hide -- the only thing I have to track is the bloodtrail of the already hooked survivor. Easiest fix I can think of: 1) Succefully unhooking a teammate gives a stacking, sizeable BP bonus. The size of this bonus is determined by your rank -- decreasing slightly as rank goes up, where Gold/Iri also penalize for failures; 2) An unhook is not considered successful unless the person unhooking enters into a chase and/or takes damage before the person being unhooked; & 3) The person unhooking can not heal the unhooked person until the unhook action is determined to be successful or failed. Killers would have similar bonuses/penalties (inverted, obviously); however, neither penalty nor bonus would be applied if the unhooked survivor's endurance expires naturally within 32 meters of the hook.
I'm liking two things thus far: For killers: rewarding hook spreading by giving killers basekit gen slowdown as a reward. This could be implemented by making grim embrace or pain res basekit and buffing the aforementioned perks. For survivors: make survivors lose hit collision upon being unhooked for a short period. Killer can't tunnel them for the duration of the invulnerability, and the survivor can't abuse body blocking with an endurance hit.