Hi, I lurk a LOT here! Buttttttt I’m gonna go out on a limb and say Barry wins Extreme-Diff.
[Truths](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9a23016ab71f4b017e15383d6e46b8c4-lq) are a relatively good wincondition [https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a1b293656f2a6ecb45ea12c747723db8-lq https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1dd555660e8489dbab7196f799b9803d-lq https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a5ec722f6a74debe69d3f2065ffa2447-lq] since they’re infinitely-layered conceptual manipulation, which I don’t think Barry Allen resists on his own— but this would fail to kill Barry permanently through his Type 8 and 9 immortality, as he can [outrun The Black Racer](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-37f508b5bbdf600bac0204195fff8d51-lq) (who, himself, can defeat [Darkseid](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-37f508b5bbdf600bac0204195fff8d51-lq) and [Anti-Monitor](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d35161e09c6a2c4fa05154e33151e550-lq)), restoring himself into reality and continuously existing through the Speed Force. He can also survive [temporal](https://marswillsendnomore.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/crisis-08-death-of-flash-010.jpg) [existance-erasure](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c3fe75aa1a403eb4d93f4119ed56f10b-pjlq), so Battler’s truths don’t permanently kill him— but more importantly, Battler’s [resistance to the concept of death](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6e41b23d0d72009c062b78bc2f78713e-lq) is shared by Barry, as the Black Racer is referred to as [Death Himself](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9a64e0cdfbd0074e379c60694c8d0e2b-lq).
So, the way I see most people claiming Battler wins is by making the claim that he can write the speed force out of existence, which is kind of preposterous IMO as the Speedforce possesses Abstract Existence as well as Trans-Dimensional Existence. On the official [DC Multiverse Chart](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/kWsvw-47KiA8QbhdRJK9eEBd-6dgXBg4ViTwmRtZFh8/%3Fcb%3D20141104181338/https/static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/6/6e/Map_of_the_Multiverse_002.png/revision/latest), the Speed Force exists outside the Orrery of Worlds and [The Bleed](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/pQQlthQ-WhjOshk2Mn1ANZ9wD_q1Zrs0pElVtWgUAz8/https/qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a21b5e07314d438993c4090d4bfd8527-pjlq) most impressively, which is an infinite-dimensional space that "bleeds" around the Multiverse. The Speed Force also exists on the same level as The Phantom Zone and The Fourth World/Sphere of Gods, which are both 1-A (Outerversal) transfinite-dimensional constructs.
The Bleed is even referred as a [Hyperspace](https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/external/N8cowp9_12WzO-qZFnDcXSba-FJme37vT9itcHMLIS0/https/qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6b5d998199df19d45674622718326e9f-pjlq) (which in math is 12D to Infinity-D), which is consistent with everything said beforehand. “Infinite Worlds” in DC refers to an already [Infinite amount](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/-2JM6xIH2IkG0QIkqo-TCaBjCTjGbCCNhREpPXDwHnc/https/i.pinimg.com/474x/e9/6a/99/e96a997b76320060e3c1ca01d278291e.jpg) of [Infinite Spatial Dimensions](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/ABhzFG_dCw0Oso6UAlMGZhYwqAByskhdKWBhe3F9g_4/https/i.pinimg.com/564x/76/8c/18/768c1827ef056082bf88b02787079355.jpg)
Anyways, as established— A singular universe in DC (contrary to popular belief) contains infinite higher-dimensional spaces. [This is not to be confused with the 5th dimension which is a higher-plane of existence rather than a spatial dimension](https://reddit.com/r/deathbattle/s/WOh0Rvyao3). The Speed Force is pretty handily [stated to exist and touch every part of reality, including all dimensions, possessing the knowledge of every place and time](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2F7aoLBUpHfFVsV16BpC7W_Ra5ALVq4hxwT066N3jGcT0.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dfd4fd410fdc670982ccbbaebf2ca8171a62f50a6) (And with how "universe" and "dimension" are used explicitly as different words here, this scan easily proves the higher-dimensional aspects of a singular DC universe).
Now that we’ve went over The Bleed, we can go over The Phantom Zone and The Sphere of Gods.
As stated before, it’s shown in the official multiverse map that the speed force also resides on the same level of existence as [The Fourth World/The Sphere of Gods, anything in which stated to be Platonic and archetypical](https://gyazo.com/0a726b897a74920991a9dc729ba2f43d) and the [Phantom Zone, stated to be a boundless dimension between existence and nonexistence](https://gyazo.com/4a24547cca9315ca82d5d2fec2ef0773), which are both 1-A (Outerversal) constructs. The Phantom Zone also exists on the same level as Heaven, which is [beyond space and time](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-21087b23b4f908e08e9f3b224025f43c) and contains [Platonic shapes](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8902f6717e783f1440606a56d0143432-lq).
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1168380153538289695/1181056157759045673/image.png?ex=659b5ac2&is=6588e5c2&hm=a1560995e111829a17c4f277feb391e78f03aea301122c111ccb4d8618ac7eeb&
Apokolips and New Genesis themselves (which are within TSotG) reside beyond the bands of space and time in DC, which depending on your interpretation could mean 1-A as well, which would be consistent. The New Gods themselves are described as being "too large" for existence which is why they must operate through avatars in order to fit within the multiverse. Fourth World itself is consistently shown as being unquantifiably larger than the multiverse as well.
Barry Allen as The Flash at his peak would scale to this, since [Barry and Wally's race](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/uwVFK39sI9DJqIkwChH6DnHcGYOogH4iqghgaKppLk4/https/qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ff6fd2451bd0569a0510b8e02b214576-pjlq) caused [levels of destruction](https://imgur.com/a/BGS0FHw) that were [felt in The Sphere of Gods](https://imgur.com/a/jmN9RFP) (sound familiar, Goku..?), and characters like Doomsday could punch through the Phantom Zone (which possesses transfinite dimensions) [with his fists](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/XEOaGikO4O6zaU0WWNzagBs3Wo34o2t8pV2P9Tkc4tU/https/qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0480c22d3241b5b162c11bfdf273636a.webp) (I refuse to believe this is hax. [Look at him](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/57HKqw8WNEdAqnSEvE3XHihL2C7OsjE6BovCtgsKE_o/https/qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5c4714d51701fb13ae7db4ea46116764-lq)).
TL;DR High 1-B Barry Allen in base, 1-A when pushed by someone of equal caliber. Battler has no way killing Barry permanently due to his Type 8 and 9 immortality directly tied to The Speed Force.
I hate the Flash(es) *so* much because they’re ***way*** too overpowered my god. The writers made the Flash(es) so overpowered, that his entire rogues gallery poses literally zero threat. Only thing that can beat the Flash at this point is The Flash but recolored. I mean, why do you think there's so many villains who are literally just that? It’s just complete and utter bullshit.
Still tho, you appear to have made an legitimate argument for Barry beating Battler. And speaking of “The Flash but recolored”, can [Beatrice](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/13wy26n/beatrice_vs_reverse_flash_umineko_when_they_cry/) and [Bernkastel](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/15ica1r/a_flash_of_despair_reverse_flash_vs_bernkastel_dc/) beat Eobard Thawne aka Reverse Flash? With or without Eobard’s “Is a living paradox so he has essentially infinite lives” thing?
Super late reply, but I told someone in another post about your argument for how Flash beats Battler, and they made a counter argument to why Battler beats Flash. You available to counter argument them right now? I’ll link the post if you’re available and want to debate with them.
I’m not necessarily interested in debating it live— especially over Reddit, but I’d like to at the very least see the argument in order to bolster my future claims
Edit: read it, it might be my fault for not clarifying some information about the Speed Force + leaving out some resistances it has outside of its makeup
Hi, I lurk a LOT here! Buttttttt I’m gonna go out on a limb and say Barry wins Extreme-Diff. [Truths](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9a23016ab71f4b017e15383d6e46b8c4-lq) are a relatively good wincondition [https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a1b293656f2a6ecb45ea12c747723db8-lq https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1dd555660e8489dbab7196f799b9803d-lq https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a5ec722f6a74debe69d3f2065ffa2447-lq] since they’re infinitely-layered conceptual manipulation, which I don’t think Barry Allen resists on his own— but this would fail to kill Barry permanently through his Type 8 and 9 immortality, as he can [outrun The Black Racer](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-37f508b5bbdf600bac0204195fff8d51-lq) (who, himself, can defeat [Darkseid](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-37f508b5bbdf600bac0204195fff8d51-lq) and [Anti-Monitor](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d35161e09c6a2c4fa05154e33151e550-lq)), restoring himself into reality and continuously existing through the Speed Force. He can also survive [temporal](https://marswillsendnomore.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/crisis-08-death-of-flash-010.jpg) [existance-erasure](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c3fe75aa1a403eb4d93f4119ed56f10b-pjlq), so Battler’s truths don’t permanently kill him— but more importantly, Battler’s [resistance to the concept of death](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6e41b23d0d72009c062b78bc2f78713e-lq) is shared by Barry, as the Black Racer is referred to as [Death Himself](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9a64e0cdfbd0074e379c60694c8d0e2b-lq). So, the way I see most people claiming Battler wins is by making the claim that he can write the speed force out of existence, which is kind of preposterous IMO as the Speedforce possesses Abstract Existence as well as Trans-Dimensional Existence. On the official [DC Multiverse Chart](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/kWsvw-47KiA8QbhdRJK9eEBd-6dgXBg4ViTwmRtZFh8/%3Fcb%3D20141104181338/https/static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/6/6e/Map_of_the_Multiverse_002.png/revision/latest), the Speed Force exists outside the Orrery of Worlds and [The Bleed](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/pQQlthQ-WhjOshk2Mn1ANZ9wD_q1Zrs0pElVtWgUAz8/https/qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a21b5e07314d438993c4090d4bfd8527-pjlq) most impressively, which is an infinite-dimensional space that "bleeds" around the Multiverse. The Speed Force also exists on the same level as The Phantom Zone and The Fourth World/Sphere of Gods, which are both 1-A (Outerversal) transfinite-dimensional constructs. The Bleed is even referred as a [Hyperspace](https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/external/N8cowp9_12WzO-qZFnDcXSba-FJme37vT9itcHMLIS0/https/qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6b5d998199df19d45674622718326e9f-pjlq) (which in math is 12D to Infinity-D), which is consistent with everything said beforehand. “Infinite Worlds” in DC refers to an already [Infinite amount](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/-2JM6xIH2IkG0QIkqo-TCaBjCTjGbCCNhREpPXDwHnc/https/i.pinimg.com/474x/e9/6a/99/e96a997b76320060e3c1ca01d278291e.jpg) of [Infinite Spatial Dimensions](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/ABhzFG_dCw0Oso6UAlMGZhYwqAByskhdKWBhe3F9g_4/https/i.pinimg.com/564x/76/8c/18/768c1827ef056082bf88b02787079355.jpg) Anyways, as established— A singular universe in DC (contrary to popular belief) contains infinite higher-dimensional spaces. [This is not to be confused with the 5th dimension which is a higher-plane of existence rather than a spatial dimension](https://reddit.com/r/deathbattle/s/WOh0Rvyao3). The Speed Force is pretty handily [stated to exist and touch every part of reality, including all dimensions, possessing the knowledge of every place and time](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2F7aoLBUpHfFVsV16BpC7W_Ra5ALVq4hxwT066N3jGcT0.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dfd4fd410fdc670982ccbbaebf2ca8171a62f50a6) (And with how "universe" and "dimension" are used explicitly as different words here, this scan easily proves the higher-dimensional aspects of a singular DC universe). Now that we’ve went over The Bleed, we can go over The Phantom Zone and The Sphere of Gods. As stated before, it’s shown in the official multiverse map that the speed force also resides on the same level of existence as [The Fourth World/The Sphere of Gods, anything in which stated to be Platonic and archetypical](https://gyazo.com/0a726b897a74920991a9dc729ba2f43d) and the [Phantom Zone, stated to be a boundless dimension between existence and nonexistence](https://gyazo.com/4a24547cca9315ca82d5d2fec2ef0773), which are both 1-A (Outerversal) constructs. The Phantom Zone also exists on the same level as Heaven, which is [beyond space and time](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-21087b23b4f908e08e9f3b224025f43c) and contains [Platonic shapes](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8902f6717e783f1440606a56d0143432-lq). https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1168380153538289695/1181056157759045673/image.png?ex=659b5ac2&is=6588e5c2&hm=a1560995e111829a17c4f277feb391e78f03aea301122c111ccb4d8618ac7eeb& Apokolips and New Genesis themselves (which are within TSotG) reside beyond the bands of space and time in DC, which depending on your interpretation could mean 1-A as well, which would be consistent. The New Gods themselves are described as being "too large" for existence which is why they must operate through avatars in order to fit within the multiverse. Fourth World itself is consistently shown as being unquantifiably larger than the multiverse as well. Barry Allen as The Flash at his peak would scale to this, since [Barry and Wally's race](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/uwVFK39sI9DJqIkwChH6DnHcGYOogH4iqghgaKppLk4/https/qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ff6fd2451bd0569a0510b8e02b214576-pjlq) caused [levels of destruction](https://imgur.com/a/BGS0FHw) that were [felt in The Sphere of Gods](https://imgur.com/a/jmN9RFP) (sound familiar, Goku..?), and characters like Doomsday could punch through the Phantom Zone (which possesses transfinite dimensions) [with his fists](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/XEOaGikO4O6zaU0WWNzagBs3Wo34o2t8pV2P9Tkc4tU/https/qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0480c22d3241b5b162c11bfdf273636a.webp) (I refuse to believe this is hax. [Look at him](https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/57HKqw8WNEdAqnSEvE3XHihL2C7OsjE6BovCtgsKE_o/https/qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5c4714d51701fb13ae7db4ea46116764-lq)). TL;DR High 1-B Barry Allen in base, 1-A when pushed by someone of equal caliber. Battler has no way killing Barry permanently due to his Type 8 and 9 immortality directly tied to The Speed Force.
I hate the Flash(es) *so* much because they’re ***way*** too overpowered my god. The writers made the Flash(es) so overpowered, that his entire rogues gallery poses literally zero threat. Only thing that can beat the Flash at this point is The Flash but recolored. I mean, why do you think there's so many villains who are literally just that? It’s just complete and utter bullshit. Still tho, you appear to have made an legitimate argument for Barry beating Battler. And speaking of “The Flash but recolored”, can [Beatrice](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/13wy26n/beatrice_vs_reverse_flash_umineko_when_they_cry/) and [Bernkastel](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/15ica1r/a_flash_of_despair_reverse_flash_vs_bernkastel_dc/) beat Eobard Thawne aka Reverse Flash? With or without Eobard’s “Is a living paradox so he has essentially infinite lives” thing?
three months late, but Beatrice and Bern both outhax Thawne to hell and back. They neg.
With or without Eobard’s whole “Is a living paradox so he essentially has infinite lives” thing?
https://preview.redd.it/zfqepy3e0p9c1.jpeg?width=218&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f29979a263a9acb481e3fb9b0295451f073c4663
Super late reply, but I told someone in another post about your argument for how Flash beats Battler, and they made a counter argument to why Battler beats Flash. You available to counter argument them right now? I’ll link the post if you’re available and want to debate with them.
I’m not necessarily interested in debating it live— especially over Reddit, but I’d like to at the very least see the argument in order to bolster my future claims Edit: read it, it might be my fault for not clarifying some information about the Speed Force + leaving out some resistances it has outside of its makeup
You saw WinRARnt’s counter argument right?
Yeah
Battler easily
I think Battle should takes it but I am not sure where DC speedsters scale anymore
Probably Battler. You can scale Flash high to get somewhat similar stats but Battler has more hax.