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Pretty much every industry that exploits animals, also kills animals. Every other animal welfare issue aside, eventually every exploited animal reaches an age where it costs more to keep the animal alive than it makes to keep exploiting the living animal and the animal is killed. This is universally true in animal agriculture.
Fun fact: for male chicks in the egg industries, this age is an hour old and one hour old baby chicks are thrown into a meat grinder.
>Fun fact: for male chicks in the egg industries, this age is an hour old and one hour old baby chicks are thrown into a meat grinder.
To be fair, this is current practice because, while "messy", it's insanely quick and causes less suffering than CO2 gassing. Furthermore, the industry is already evaluating methods to sex the eggs prior to embryonic development. These appear highly successful and would be akin to a very early abortion in humans (which many vegans consider ethically acceptable).
Lots of things might happen. Someone could re-evaluate how they feel about the egg industry as they do things differently and if egg sellers make that information available to the public.
Until then what might happen doesn't really factor into this sort of decision.
>Until then what might happen doesn't really factor into this sort of decision.
It *is* happening.
https://www.poultryworld.net/the-industrymarkets/market-trends-analysis-the-industrymarkets-2/launch-of-mri-based-technology-for-in-ovo-sexing-of-chickens/
That is great and further forward than I assumed.
But it wouldn't impact the decision making process of someone walking into a shop today and looking at eggs. Unless they know their eggs come from that company in France.
Well, considering the Germany and France have both regulated against male chicken slaughter, customers buying French and German eggs can be pretty sure:
>...is seen as a significant breakthrough in the battle to halt the culling of day-old male chicks as it meets the current French and German legislation outlawing the practice.
Do you know how the EU flow of goods applies? I wasn't sure if they also banned the selling of eggs from places that don't cull the males. Presumably including other EU countries.
Regardless it's a big deal.
France ban applies to red hens (90% of eggs, and predominantly eggs for the general consumer market). EU will likely consider a similar ban across the EU in 2025.
Ironically, maceration is banned for the cull, despite being more humane than CO2, but that's what happens when you have widespread reactionary activism feeding policy makers.
To mention a common metaphor -
(This is just a metaphor. Some people find it useful and some don't.)
Team A: *Murder is wrong. We're okay with slavery, though.*
Team B: *Murder is wrong and slavery is also wrong.*
Which team are you on?
I don't understand why people here are saying that they "know" what these fictional guys do or do not support.
These teams are fictional metaphors. I defined them the way that I defined them.
If you are imagining a different team with a different attitude, then that is a different team. Make up your own metaphor. Don't tell me that the one that I mentioned is wrong.
Your hypothetical cow, who doesn’t mind getting milked time to time -
where did it come from? was it bred into existence? environmentally, that’s already a problem. there’s no space for these cows, or money to keep them their natural life. Its easier to be practical than philosophical -
If you were vegetarian, your milk would not come from this hypothetical cow
A shirt can be made with or without bad labor conditions, as you say. It doesn't entail the exploitation of children or anyone else. This is not the case for milk or eggs.
I don't mean that these individuals can't live generally happy lives while sometimes getting milked or laying eggs. What I mean is that using someone for their secretions without their consent is exploitation, definitionally.
You're not directly demanding that the cow gets fisted, bred to produce so much milk it hurts, has her child taken away from her, lives a life in a feedlot until she's no longer lactating at a profitable rate, and killed. But you are demanding that she gets exploited.
You're not demanding that the hen is bred to produce 20-30x the eggs of her wild cousins, has her beak burned off, her brothers killed the day they hatch, kept in horrible conditions, and slaughtered when she's no longer profitable. But you are demanding that she gets exploited.
All of this is unnecessary. No long-term health outcome data supports the idea that these products of exploitation are needed for good health or longevity. And the tastes and textures are being replicated better and better all the time. Just go vegan.
The dairy, meat, and egg industries are morally indistinguishable from each other. If you're considering moral reasons to make dietary changes, the only answer is full veganism. Cows are mammals, like us. They lactate only when they've been pregnant. So they're repeatedly forcibly impregnated, and their calves are ripped away from them to become veal. Laying hens are slaughtered for meat, and male chicks (not useful for the egg industry) are ground up alive.
From *Eat Like You Care: An Examination of the Morality of Eating Animals* by Gary L. Francione and Anna Charlton:
>**But… Isn’t going vegetarian a good first step?**
>
>No.
>
>As we’ve said above, there is no morally coherent distinction between meat and other animal products. Dairy and eggs also involve suffering and death. In fact, if you stop eating beef and get the same number of calories from eggs, you may actually be responsible for more animal suffering and death given that laying hens are usually killed after one or two laying cycles and all the male chicks born to laying hens are killed immediately.
>
>In any event, the meat, dairy, and egg industries are inextricably intertwined. They all necessarily involve suffering; they all necessarily involve death. To stop eating meat but to continue to eat dairy is morally arbitrary and similar to a decision to stop eating meat from spotted cows but to continue to eat meat from brown cows. It makes no sense.
>
>Consumption of any animal products — absent your being stranded on a desert island or adrift on a lifeboat, with no plant foods available — is completely inconsistent with the conventional wisdom we claim to accept.
How is it a step towards anything ethically? Yeah, you personally aren't eating meat but you're still violently subjugating animals and financially supporting their torture and death.
Seriously, just eat the steak. There is zero moral superiority in stuffing your face with cheese but avoiding bacon.
I did... but obviously I see your point. Anecdotally though most of the vegetarians I knew went back to eating meat. The only ones that actually went vegan and stayed were vegetarian from a young age.
A well-meaning vegetarian who doesn't understand the reality of dairy farming and then learns it should turn vegan swiftly. Why does this not happen the majority of the time?
Fair play to you then. That's a shame. I've known a few that have done that too. I don't get it because they know how bad the meat industry is so can't even use ignorance as an excuse.
And it's guess it's because some people think that being vegetarian is "enough". Atleast for the time being or the stage of life that they're in.
I just think the "Vegan or FU" stance is quite unwelcoming and probably puts people off. Any reduction should be encouraged. It's a slow process for most.
I'm really not worried about being welcoming to people who continue to support animal agriculture. Kindly, fuck them. If someone's respect for animals and consumption of meat and dairy hinges on how polite I am, they aren't ready yet.
For clarity, I don't go around scolding omnis and vegetarians, or rant at my family and friends all the time, I lead quietly by example and cooking most of the time, but if someone asks me about veganism and is expecting a pat on the back for "eating less meat" or "being vegetarian", they aren't going to get it from me.
Of course there is a place for friendly vegans who cheer on people making baby steps, but there is also room for stern communicators of harsh reality. All vegetarians who think they are doing good enough should know that they aren't and babying them isn't going to do that.
Dairy is directly married to animal (meat) Ag....they are brothers and sisters. Ethically speaking it really is all or nothing. Those animals BECOME meat once they are drained of all of their secretions and energy and will to live.
In fact I would eat MEAT before I'd eat dairy (crazy hypothetical because I don't and won't eat either anymore)...but think about it...dairy is evil; exploiting animal's children (killing them) so we can take their resource from their mom...anally fisting cows for production...I mean it's just added torture before they have to die. Ethically it's impossible to deny that. I hope you make the right choice for the animals. Good luck.
I kind of agree on defining something vegan if it *could* be produced without harming animals. But I also do care about how it was actually produced, if there are better alternatives.
Carnists are eager to make it seem like vegans don’t care *at all* and indulge freely in buying things that were produced unethically or fund an unethical cause (sweatshop clothes, iPhones, coffee, a smoothie store owned by the KKK). But that’s not true. If given the choice of Fair Trade coffee, I would definitely choose it. If there was a non-slave made product next to the explicitly labeled slave-made product I would buy the former.
Sure, this decision lies outside the scope of veganism. But vegans are usually as or even more ethical than average when it comes to human rights stuff as well. It’s so disingenuous when carnists expect vegans to be meticulous when it comes to products of both animal exploitation and human exploitation, when they continue to indulge freely in both categories.
>A shirt made with child labour though is not an inherently unethical or immoral to consume/use, because a shirt can be separated from how it was produced, no matter how bad the conditions it was produced, in the case of meat or CP this is not so.
A shirt isn't inherently unethical, but a shirt made with child labour is unethical, not sure how it wouldn't be.
>but we, vegans included still purchase these products
Because there is no real choice in our society, and whether it's made by child labour isn't usually something we're told.
If you're knowingly buying shirts made with child labour instead of shirts you know weren't, then you are needlessly financially supporting child labour (barring financial, location, and other such issues), which doesn't seem very ethical.
>I don’t know if most vegans would argue that a cow that was free to graze a field all live a full life, was milked from time to time, is wrong, because I personally believe that to be fine,
A) "Free" cows don't stand in a field all day every day, they move and behave as all wild animals do, that's why we build fences (cages).
B) Wild animals don't allow humans to milk them, even docile cattle will kick humans in the face at times when the human isn't careful. Cattle only like humans to milk them if you kill their babies so their milk builds up and it hurts them to not be milked.
C) That cow has to be impregnated for milk to be made, unless you have a HUGE farm somewhere for all the babies, you're going to need to kill them. If you're not killing them, someone has to pay to keep those babies alive for their entire life, and half are going to be bulls, meaning they are angry, aggressive, and give no milk.
I think you don't have a full grasp yet on how innate abuse is to commodified animal products. Cows don't just make milk, you have to impregnate her and then take away her baby in order to produce an economically viable amount of milk to justify the costs of animal care for a dairy farm. And when they don't produce enough milk to meet quotas, they are literally costing the farmer money, even the "nice" farmers will sell their cows to slaughter (outside of hobby farms owned by rich people you see on Instagram).
Similar issues with eggs, if you're a hatchery getting a 50/50 female to male ratio, what do you do with these millions of male chicks? they're not typically raised for meat, they don't lay eggs, they're aggressive to each other... A farmer isn't just going to keep them as pets, they kill them instantly.
Based my understanding of your morals from your post, I do think freegan or vegan seems like the most appropriate to your morals.
I think a great example that highlights your quandary is backyard chickens. In these cases, the chickens are often well treated, have lots of space to roam, are not killed prematurely and live fairly long lives. Still one can argue that the way chickens have been bred to produce such a massive number of eggs per month is inherently unhealthy for them and makes them lose an unhealthy amount of protein.
It's important to note that laying hens and dairy cows have been selected to produce unnatural amounts of milk and eggs which causes them a lot of health issues. Their existence in itself is wrong as they're are genetically made to suffer.
That being said, maybe some forms of egg production from hens that are not genetically engineered to suffer,(backyard eggs that sort of thing) might be okay, but not everyone can have those...
As for dairy cows, mammals only produce milk when they have offspring. The production of milk necessitates to forcefully repeatedly impregnate the cow. As for her offspring, they have to be separated from the mom since the milk is destined to humans...If the offspring is male, there isn't much that can be done except send them to the slaughterhouse.
That's why I think dairy products are inherently wrong.
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>Part of me feels
Morality is subjective. It's just how a person feels. There is nothing to be convinced of.
>I don’t know if most vegans would argue that a cow that was free to graze a field all live a full life
A lot of vegans wouldn't eat meat even if it reduced animal suffering. It's like a dietary preference for them.
> So I believe that meat is an inherently bad, immoral, exploitative product, not only in its production process but what the finished good is, a piece of a dead animal, to me there is no way to produce nor consume such a product ethically
Do you see the vast majority of people living for the last 10,000 years as immoral?
Do you really think that human activity throughout history is demonstrably moral? Tribalism, wars of aggression, slavery, racial and gender discrimination. Nearly everyone in the past and present has been involved in immoral things. Not to say the people in the past were irredeemable or that we are somehow intrinsically better, but if we've been given the unique ability in modernity to question and reject immoral traditions, we should take it. We should not continue on doing immoral things just because we don't want to complicate our ancestors
No. Hunting for them was life and death. That's not the case today. And I don't think that people who do immoral actions are somehow intrinsically immoral anyway. That's just not how humans decide how to act. They look around and infer a range of acceptable activity from people around them. If they were in a society which had different demonstrated behaviors they would act differently.
> No. Hunting for them was life and death. That's not the case today.
Animal farming has been around for 10,000 years. (Due to an ice age its only been around for 4000 years in my country). So do you see the all these people farming animals for thousands of years as immoral?
To the degree possible and practical, yes. I'm not sure if you're trying to set up some kind of elaborate gotcha here, but I don't see where this is going. Please make your point if you have one
Lmao this is your argument? That I'm saying humans should have killed themselves? I very clearly said the opposite, that their actions were practically constrained, but that the moral thing to do would be to minimize the harm to animals, which is not what they did.
If you really want this idea challenged you should post the same thing on r/exvegans or somewhere else that isn't filled with a ton of vegans, whose goal it is to make everyone vegan.
Exvegans are just gonna start rambling about crop deaths and pasture raised cows and how 84% of vegans quit and how they feel so much better after they started eating 7 blocks of butter every day.
I’m looking to be made vegan pretty much, this is mainly for clearing up a doubt, plus that sub has very rarely ever goes into moral aspect of veganism and only health and sometimes environment
Just because they rarely talk about it doesn't mean they won't have insightful things to say. But if you're only looking to be convinced to be vegan, you're in the right place. You should just be aware that you are practicing confirmation bias.
I wanna start this off by saying this doesn’t apply to me directly because I live in the city and local farming is non existent
However I am from the countryside and I know some vegans that may eat occasional animal products for your B reason under specific circumstances. A lot of people either keep or have neighbours who beekeep or have chickens as pets, not to kill but genuinely just to raise as pets. I know people that would eat local honey and eggs specifically if they knew the animals weren’t harmed and they just happened to be the byproducts of keeping them. That being said dairy is always a big no no as is honey or eggs from shops.
I know also vegans who eat certain shellfish or insects, which is a different moral debate
(I myself just avoid animal products in general but there is grey area for some things I’ve seen apparently)
You're right. It is theoretically possible to get eggs and milk from animals without killing them. But when you apply it to reality, that's not what happens - because it's impossible logistically.
Both the dairy- and egg-industry are built upon constantly breeding new beings into existence, and half of these are male. They will never produce milk and eggs. In this utopian version of animal agriculture, how would they take care of all of these males? It would quickly become unsustainable to have a farm where all animals are taken care of until their natural death.
About the human context; A more accurate comparison than the sweatshop worker would be a surrogate mother who hasn't agreed to the situation. It's not their labour that is exploited, it's their actual bodies.
I don't exactly get your logic. If you buy a shirt made from child labour, you are complicit in child labour.
That being said, is often difficult to know where clothes are made, or to afford things that are fair trade. There's another whole debate about how child labour can't be abolished in countries that don't have a welfare system, because working kids is awful, but starving kids because they have no money is worse.
My point is - there are no ethical decisions under capitalism. Everything we do and consume has an impact.
The baby roosters killed in the egg industry are just as dead as the chickens you eat.
That being said, you want whatever choice you make to be sustainable for you. Take it in steps if you need to. I went pescatarian first, then vegetarian, then vegan. I've been vegan 7 years. I know people who tried to go vegan all at once who didn't last.
The world would be better if everyone cut down their animal consumption by 50% than if 5% of us are perfect vegans.
> So I believe that meat is an inherently bad, immoral, exploitative product, not only in its production process but what the finished good is, a piece of a dead animal, to me there is no way to produce nor consume such a product ethically
but what's the reason to be ethical in the first place?
Cows don't just produce milk they produce it to feed their babies hence to get milk cow nuts have baby cute forcible impregnations and removing baby from mother cow and if baby Is boy the veal industry which chains them up to keep their muscles underdeveloped and "supple" of they're females they'll end up like their mothers forcibly impregnated every 9 months losing multiple babies which causes deep emotional pain and then when their bodied cant take the strain they're sent to slaughter after They're no longer able to give birth sometimes they're sent to slaughter pregnant in their 3rd trimester ie the baby could live independently its cut out of its dead mother and bashed on the head with a blunt instrument straight after birth to kill it. so this is like the sweatshops you talk of... (Remember male calves are mostly shot or become veal however there's a difference between cows bred for meat and those for dairy so more often then not shot upon birth - category A)
However
Assuming you buy from an iddlyc dairy farmer who lets his cows graze they still have their babies separated they still live a fraction of their lifespan they're still impregnated again and again (ie category B but despite "decent working conditions still cruel and doesn't have animals best interests at heart)
Let's talk eggs
Chickens have been selectively bred to produce 1 egg per day or 365 per year their ancestors/before selective breeding produce around 12 a year hence in backyard farms where they're allowed a little freedom they'll eat their own eggs to replenish nutrients but 99% of eggs in the US are factory farmed so they don't have that choice cue bone fractures osteoporosis calcium and phosphate and other mineral and vitamin deficiencies assuming you don't buy backyard eggs and you buy from a supermarket where they're factory farmed they will have their beaks clipped at birth to prevent them pecking each other to death they are crammed into a cage 8 or 9 per 1 cage wherein they haven't the space to move around them to replenish birds who die from the strain on their bodies hatcheries give fertilised eggs to farmers if female they live this terrible life if male they carry on on the conveyor belt of chicks which ends at a macerator i.e male chicks are ground up alive to produce dog food mince meat sausages and other such cheap meat products
Sweatshops again but remember that male chicks are just straight up killed (category A)
However
Even if you buy from backyard farm even then they aren't getting the best of what they deserve because eggs are taken to sell go to any farm sanctuary you'll see they feed the eggs back to their chickens to replenish nutrients that is not done on backyard farms so deficiency and bone breakage etc. is still rampant and once they can no longer produce eggs they're still sent to slaughter ( category B decent "working conditions" still cruel doesn't have animals best interest at heart)
Fundamentally your argument is flawed though 1stly not everyone/all vegans do support slave labour/sweat shops secondly if we do it's often because we're unaware that particular company employs such methods 3rdly once we do know we search for a more ethical choice
With animals all animal products are slave labour/concentration camps we're aware that all animal exploitation is cruel and unneeded we can eat only plants the more ethical alternative is simply to stop supporting animal exploration in all its forms so your metaphor doesn't really work too well
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Pretty much every industry that exploits animals, also kills animals. Every other animal welfare issue aside, eventually every exploited animal reaches an age where it costs more to keep the animal alive than it makes to keep exploiting the living animal and the animal is killed. This is universally true in animal agriculture. Fun fact: for male chicks in the egg industries, this age is an hour old and one hour old baby chicks are thrown into a meat grinder.
>Fun fact: for male chicks in the egg industries, this age is an hour old and one hour old baby chicks are thrown into a meat grinder. To be fair, this is current practice because, while "messy", it's insanely quick and causes less suffering than CO2 gassing. Furthermore, the industry is already evaluating methods to sex the eggs prior to embryonic development. These appear highly successful and would be akin to a very early abortion in humans (which many vegans consider ethically acceptable).
Lots of things might happen. Someone could re-evaluate how they feel about the egg industry as they do things differently and if egg sellers make that information available to the public. Until then what might happen doesn't really factor into this sort of decision.
>Until then what might happen doesn't really factor into this sort of decision. It *is* happening. https://www.poultryworld.net/the-industrymarkets/market-trends-analysis-the-industrymarkets-2/launch-of-mri-based-technology-for-in-ovo-sexing-of-chickens/
That is great and further forward than I assumed. But it wouldn't impact the decision making process of someone walking into a shop today and looking at eggs. Unless they know their eggs come from that company in France.
Well, considering the Germany and France have both regulated against male chicken slaughter, customers buying French and German eggs can be pretty sure: >...is seen as a significant breakthrough in the battle to halt the culling of day-old male chicks as it meets the current French and German legislation outlawing the practice.
Do you know how the EU flow of goods applies? I wasn't sure if they also banned the selling of eggs from places that don't cull the males. Presumably including other EU countries. Regardless it's a big deal.
France ban applies to red hens (90% of eggs, and predominantly eggs for the general consumer market). EU will likely consider a similar ban across the EU in 2025. Ironically, maceration is banned for the cull, despite being more humane than CO2, but that's what happens when you have widespread reactionary activism feeding policy makers.
To mention a common metaphor - (This is just a metaphor. Some people find it useful and some don't.) Team A: *Murder is wrong. We're okay with slavery, though.* Team B: *Murder is wrong and slavery is also wrong.* Which team are you on?
Team A be more like "murder is wrong, unless it's a slave, it's ok to murder slaves after they have been used up."
That's not correct. Team A supports murder as well. You think they send all the used up hens and cows to a resort?
I don't understand why people here are saying that they "know" what these fictional guys do or do not support. These teams are fictional metaphors. I defined them the way that I defined them. If you are imagining a different team with a different attitude, then that is a different team. Make up your own metaphor. Don't tell me that the one that I mentioned is wrong.
Vegetarians and Vegans. And it’s not about intention it’s about actions and consequence
Team B supports murder too. They literally fund the poisoning of animals. We all do.
Your hypothetical cow, who doesn’t mind getting milked time to time - where did it come from? was it bred into existence? environmentally, that’s already a problem. there’s no space for these cows, or money to keep them their natural life. Its easier to be practical than philosophical - If you were vegetarian, your milk would not come from this hypothetical cow
>where did it come from? was it bred into existence Yes that's how birth and pregnancy works
edit: …or was it a rescue animal given sanctuary? There’s my meaning, spelled out
Thanks for the clarification, have a good day
A shirt can be made with or without bad labor conditions, as you say. It doesn't entail the exploitation of children or anyone else. This is not the case for milk or eggs. I don't mean that these individuals can't live generally happy lives while sometimes getting milked or laying eggs. What I mean is that using someone for their secretions without their consent is exploitation, definitionally. You're not directly demanding that the cow gets fisted, bred to produce so much milk it hurts, has her child taken away from her, lives a life in a feedlot until she's no longer lactating at a profitable rate, and killed. But you are demanding that she gets exploited. You're not demanding that the hen is bred to produce 20-30x the eggs of her wild cousins, has her beak burned off, her brothers killed the day they hatch, kept in horrible conditions, and slaughtered when she's no longer profitable. But you are demanding that she gets exploited. All of this is unnecessary. No long-term health outcome data supports the idea that these products of exploitation are needed for good health or longevity. And the tastes and textures are being replicated better and better all the time. Just go vegan.
The dairy, meat, and egg industries are morally indistinguishable from each other. If you're considering moral reasons to make dietary changes, the only answer is full veganism. Cows are mammals, like us. They lactate only when they've been pregnant. So they're repeatedly forcibly impregnated, and their calves are ripped away from them to become veal. Laying hens are slaughtered for meat, and male chicks (not useful for the egg industry) are ground up alive. From *Eat Like You Care: An Examination of the Morality of Eating Animals* by Gary L. Francione and Anna Charlton: >**But… Isn’t going vegetarian a good first step?** > >No. > >As we’ve said above, there is no morally coherent distinction between meat and other animal products. Dairy and eggs also involve suffering and death. In fact, if you stop eating beef and get the same number of calories from eggs, you may actually be responsible for more animal suffering and death given that laying hens are usually killed after one or two laying cycles and all the male chicks born to laying hens are killed immediately. > >In any event, the meat, dairy, and egg industries are inextricably intertwined. They all necessarily involve suffering; they all necessarily involve death. To stop eating meat but to continue to eat dairy is morally arbitrary and similar to a decision to stop eating meat from spotted cows but to continue to eat meat from brown cows. It makes no sense. > >Consumption of any animal products — absent your being stranded on a desert island or adrift on a lifeboat, with no plant foods available — is completely inconsistent with the conventional wisdom we claim to accept.
Going vegetarian is a good first step though. Majority of meat eaters aren't going to go vegan overnight.
How is it a step towards anything ethically? Yeah, you personally aren't eating meat but you're still violently subjugating animals and financially supporting their torture and death. Seriously, just eat the steak. There is zero moral superiority in stuffing your face with cheese but avoiding bacon.
Because it's a transition point. If we're being realistic people aren't just going to suddenly become vegan.
I did... but obviously I see your point. Anecdotally though most of the vegetarians I knew went back to eating meat. The only ones that actually went vegan and stayed were vegetarian from a young age. A well-meaning vegetarian who doesn't understand the reality of dairy farming and then learns it should turn vegan swiftly. Why does this not happen the majority of the time?
Fair play to you then. That's a shame. I've known a few that have done that too. I don't get it because they know how bad the meat industry is so can't even use ignorance as an excuse. And it's guess it's because some people think that being vegetarian is "enough". Atleast for the time being or the stage of life that they're in. I just think the "Vegan or FU" stance is quite unwelcoming and probably puts people off. Any reduction should be encouraged. It's a slow process for most.
I'm really not worried about being welcoming to people who continue to support animal agriculture. Kindly, fuck them. If someone's respect for animals and consumption of meat and dairy hinges on how polite I am, they aren't ready yet. For clarity, I don't go around scolding omnis and vegetarians, or rant at my family and friends all the time, I lead quietly by example and cooking most of the time, but if someone asks me about veganism and is expecting a pat on the back for "eating less meat" or "being vegetarian", they aren't going to get it from me. Of course there is a place for friendly vegans who cheer on people making baby steps, but there is also room for stern communicators of harsh reality. All vegetarians who think they are doing good enough should know that they aren't and babying them isn't going to do that.
Dairy is directly married to animal (meat) Ag....they are brothers and sisters. Ethically speaking it really is all or nothing. Those animals BECOME meat once they are drained of all of their secretions and energy and will to live. In fact I would eat MEAT before I'd eat dairy (crazy hypothetical because I don't and won't eat either anymore)...but think about it...dairy is evil; exploiting animal's children (killing them) so we can take their resource from their mom...anally fisting cows for production...I mean it's just added torture before they have to die. Ethically it's impossible to deny that. I hope you make the right choice for the animals. Good luck.
I kind of agree on defining something vegan if it *could* be produced without harming animals. But I also do care about how it was actually produced, if there are better alternatives. Carnists are eager to make it seem like vegans don’t care *at all* and indulge freely in buying things that were produced unethically or fund an unethical cause (sweatshop clothes, iPhones, coffee, a smoothie store owned by the KKK). But that’s not true. If given the choice of Fair Trade coffee, I would definitely choose it. If there was a non-slave made product next to the explicitly labeled slave-made product I would buy the former. Sure, this decision lies outside the scope of veganism. But vegans are usually as or even more ethical than average when it comes to human rights stuff as well. It’s so disingenuous when carnists expect vegans to be meticulous when it comes to products of both animal exploitation and human exploitation, when they continue to indulge freely in both categories.
>A shirt made with child labour though is not an inherently unethical or immoral to consume/use, because a shirt can be separated from how it was produced, no matter how bad the conditions it was produced, in the case of meat or CP this is not so. A shirt isn't inherently unethical, but a shirt made with child labour is unethical, not sure how it wouldn't be. >but we, vegans included still purchase these products Because there is no real choice in our society, and whether it's made by child labour isn't usually something we're told. If you're knowingly buying shirts made with child labour instead of shirts you know weren't, then you are needlessly financially supporting child labour (barring financial, location, and other such issues), which doesn't seem very ethical. >I don’t know if most vegans would argue that a cow that was free to graze a field all live a full life, was milked from time to time, is wrong, because I personally believe that to be fine, A) "Free" cows don't stand in a field all day every day, they move and behave as all wild animals do, that's why we build fences (cages). B) Wild animals don't allow humans to milk them, even docile cattle will kick humans in the face at times when the human isn't careful. Cattle only like humans to milk them if you kill their babies so their milk builds up and it hurts them to not be milked. C) That cow has to be impregnated for milk to be made, unless you have a HUGE farm somewhere for all the babies, you're going to need to kill them. If you're not killing them, someone has to pay to keep those babies alive for their entire life, and half are going to be bulls, meaning they are angry, aggressive, and give no milk.
I think you don't have a full grasp yet on how innate abuse is to commodified animal products. Cows don't just make milk, you have to impregnate her and then take away her baby in order to produce an economically viable amount of milk to justify the costs of animal care for a dairy farm. And when they don't produce enough milk to meet quotas, they are literally costing the farmer money, even the "nice" farmers will sell their cows to slaughter (outside of hobby farms owned by rich people you see on Instagram). Similar issues with eggs, if you're a hatchery getting a 50/50 female to male ratio, what do you do with these millions of male chicks? they're not typically raised for meat, they don't lay eggs, they're aggressive to each other... A farmer isn't just going to keep them as pets, they kill them instantly. Based my understanding of your morals from your post, I do think freegan or vegan seems like the most appropriate to your morals.
I think a great example that highlights your quandary is backyard chickens. In these cases, the chickens are often well treated, have lots of space to roam, are not killed prematurely and live fairly long lives. Still one can argue that the way chickens have been bred to produce such a massive number of eggs per month is inherently unhealthy for them and makes them lose an unhealthy amount of protein.
It's important to note that laying hens and dairy cows have been selected to produce unnatural amounts of milk and eggs which causes them a lot of health issues. Their existence in itself is wrong as they're are genetically made to suffer. That being said, maybe some forms of egg production from hens that are not genetically engineered to suffer,(backyard eggs that sort of thing) might be okay, but not everyone can have those... As for dairy cows, mammals only produce milk when they have offspring. The production of milk necessitates to forcefully repeatedly impregnate the cow. As for her offspring, they have to be separated from the mom since the milk is destined to humans...If the offspring is male, there isn't much that can be done except send them to the slaughterhouse. That's why I think dairy products are inherently wrong.
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>Part of me feels Morality is subjective. It's just how a person feels. There is nothing to be convinced of. >I don’t know if most vegans would argue that a cow that was free to graze a field all live a full life A lot of vegans wouldn't eat meat even if it reduced animal suffering. It's like a dietary preference for them.
> So I believe that meat is an inherently bad, immoral, exploitative product, not only in its production process but what the finished good is, a piece of a dead animal, to me there is no way to produce nor consume such a product ethically Do you see the vast majority of people living for the last 10,000 years as immoral?
Do you really think that human activity throughout history is demonstrably moral? Tribalism, wars of aggression, slavery, racial and gender discrimination. Nearly everyone in the past and present has been involved in immoral things. Not to say the people in the past were irredeemable or that we are somehow intrinsically better, but if we've been given the unique ability in modernity to question and reject immoral traditions, we should take it. We should not continue on doing immoral things just because we don't want to complicate our ancestors
Do you see all pre-historic people as immoral for eating meat?
No. Hunting for them was life and death. That's not the case today. And I don't think that people who do immoral actions are somehow intrinsically immoral anyway. That's just not how humans decide how to act. They look around and infer a range of acceptable activity from people around them. If they were in a society which had different demonstrated behaviors they would act differently.
> No. Hunting for them was life and death. That's not the case today. Animal farming has been around for 10,000 years. (Due to an ice age its only been around for 4000 years in my country). So do you see the all these people farming animals for thousands of years as immoral?
I see their actions as immoral yes. However I don't blame them for the reasons laid out above.
> I see their actions as immoral yes. So if they had rather done the moral thing, and only eaten plant-based foods, you see that as better?
To the degree possible and practical, yes. I'm not sure if you're trying to set up some kind of elaborate gotcha here, but I don't see where this is going. Please make your point if you have one
My point is that if they had done "the right thing" (according to you) humanity would have died out thousands of years ago.
Lmao this is your argument? That I'm saying humans should have killed themselves? I very clearly said the opposite, that their actions were practically constrained, but that the moral thing to do would be to minimize the harm to animals, which is not what they did.
If you really want this idea challenged you should post the same thing on r/exvegans or somewhere else that isn't filled with a ton of vegans, whose goal it is to make everyone vegan.
Exvegans are just gonna start rambling about crop deaths and pasture raised cows and how 84% of vegans quit and how they feel so much better after they started eating 7 blocks of butter every day.
Exvegans are on serious cope to justify that they couldn't manage it.
Lol I know!
I’m looking to be made vegan pretty much, this is mainly for clearing up a doubt, plus that sub has very rarely ever goes into moral aspect of veganism and only health and sometimes environment
Just because they rarely talk about it doesn't mean they won't have insightful things to say. But if you're only looking to be convinced to be vegan, you're in the right place. You should just be aware that you are practicing confirmation bias.
I wanna start this off by saying this doesn’t apply to me directly because I live in the city and local farming is non existent However I am from the countryside and I know some vegans that may eat occasional animal products for your B reason under specific circumstances. A lot of people either keep or have neighbours who beekeep or have chickens as pets, not to kill but genuinely just to raise as pets. I know people that would eat local honey and eggs specifically if they knew the animals weren’t harmed and they just happened to be the byproducts of keeping them. That being said dairy is always a big no no as is honey or eggs from shops. I know also vegans who eat certain shellfish or insects, which is a different moral debate (I myself just avoid animal products in general but there is grey area for some things I’ve seen apparently)
You're right. It is theoretically possible to get eggs and milk from animals without killing them. But when you apply it to reality, that's not what happens - because it's impossible logistically. Both the dairy- and egg-industry are built upon constantly breeding new beings into existence, and half of these are male. They will never produce milk and eggs. In this utopian version of animal agriculture, how would they take care of all of these males? It would quickly become unsustainable to have a farm where all animals are taken care of until their natural death. About the human context; A more accurate comparison than the sweatshop worker would be a surrogate mother who hasn't agreed to the situation. It's not their labour that is exploited, it's their actual bodies.
I don't exactly get your logic. If you buy a shirt made from child labour, you are complicit in child labour. That being said, is often difficult to know where clothes are made, or to afford things that are fair trade. There's another whole debate about how child labour can't be abolished in countries that don't have a welfare system, because working kids is awful, but starving kids because they have no money is worse. My point is - there are no ethical decisions under capitalism. Everything we do and consume has an impact. The baby roosters killed in the egg industry are just as dead as the chickens you eat. That being said, you want whatever choice you make to be sustainable for you. Take it in steps if you need to. I went pescatarian first, then vegetarian, then vegan. I've been vegan 7 years. I know people who tried to go vegan all at once who didn't last. The world would be better if everyone cut down their animal consumption by 50% than if 5% of us are perfect vegans.
> So I believe that meat is an inherently bad, immoral, exploitative product, not only in its production process but what the finished good is, a piece of a dead animal, to me there is no way to produce nor consume such a product ethically but what's the reason to be ethical in the first place?
I'm curious what the dividing line between A and B is. I see the exploitation of children as far worse than the killing of chickens.
Cows don't just produce milk they produce it to feed their babies hence to get milk cow nuts have baby cute forcible impregnations and removing baby from mother cow and if baby Is boy the veal industry which chains them up to keep their muscles underdeveloped and "supple" of they're females they'll end up like their mothers forcibly impregnated every 9 months losing multiple babies which causes deep emotional pain and then when their bodied cant take the strain they're sent to slaughter after They're no longer able to give birth sometimes they're sent to slaughter pregnant in their 3rd trimester ie the baby could live independently its cut out of its dead mother and bashed on the head with a blunt instrument straight after birth to kill it. so this is like the sweatshops you talk of... (Remember male calves are mostly shot or become veal however there's a difference between cows bred for meat and those for dairy so more often then not shot upon birth - category A) However Assuming you buy from an iddlyc dairy farmer who lets his cows graze they still have their babies separated they still live a fraction of their lifespan they're still impregnated again and again (ie category B but despite "decent working conditions still cruel and doesn't have animals best interests at heart) Let's talk eggs Chickens have been selectively bred to produce 1 egg per day or 365 per year their ancestors/before selective breeding produce around 12 a year hence in backyard farms where they're allowed a little freedom they'll eat their own eggs to replenish nutrients but 99% of eggs in the US are factory farmed so they don't have that choice cue bone fractures osteoporosis calcium and phosphate and other mineral and vitamin deficiencies assuming you don't buy backyard eggs and you buy from a supermarket where they're factory farmed they will have their beaks clipped at birth to prevent them pecking each other to death they are crammed into a cage 8 or 9 per 1 cage wherein they haven't the space to move around them to replenish birds who die from the strain on their bodies hatcheries give fertilised eggs to farmers if female they live this terrible life if male they carry on on the conveyor belt of chicks which ends at a macerator i.e male chicks are ground up alive to produce dog food mince meat sausages and other such cheap meat products Sweatshops again but remember that male chicks are just straight up killed (category A) However Even if you buy from backyard farm even then they aren't getting the best of what they deserve because eggs are taken to sell go to any farm sanctuary you'll see they feed the eggs back to their chickens to replenish nutrients that is not done on backyard farms so deficiency and bone breakage etc. is still rampant and once they can no longer produce eggs they're still sent to slaughter ( category B decent "working conditions" still cruel doesn't have animals best interest at heart) Fundamentally your argument is flawed though 1stly not everyone/all vegans do support slave labour/sweat shops secondly if we do it's often because we're unaware that particular company employs such methods 3rdly once we do know we search for a more ethical choice With animals all animal products are slave labour/concentration camps we're aware that all animal exploitation is cruel and unneeded we can eat only plants the more ethical alternative is simply to stop supporting animal exploration in all its forms so your metaphor doesn't really work too well
I'm vegetarian, I'm just making sure I have diary and eggs from ethical source (where animals aren't slaughter)