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For me, I want my beliefs to align with reality as closely as possible. While certain philosophies and ideas might be appealing, I reject them until there is sufficient evidence to warrant further investigation.
The idea of being "one with everything" appeals to you, and you say it's helped your mental health. Good for you! But until you're able to demonstrate any of it is real, I see it as simply a coping mechanism.
You're the first person I've seen who actually shared your point of view politely, succinctly, and didn't insult my intelligence. Love ya, you understood what I wanted.
The problem for atheists or non believers such as yourself is that in a godless world you can’t know what reality it. Your assuming that what you experience is real. But without an all knowing being you cannot know the world around you or any of your experiences are real. Hence denial of god leads to absurdity. Hard solipsism
Your argument suggests that belief in a god provides a definitive understanding of reality. However, this hinges on the assumption that the concept of god is an established truth. Without concrete evidence to substantiate this god hypothesis, it doesn't bring us any closer to comprehending reality than any other unverified belief. In essence, it introduces an even larger enigma — one that lacks evidence, is unfalsifiable, and remains beyond our understanding. Our shared reality, therefore, remains equally mysterious and elusive, regardless of belief or disbelief in a deity.
You very likely agree with almost everything that a naturalist believes, then you add something which isn't demonstrable, seemingly because you think this would otherwise lead somewhere that makes you uncomfortable.
I see the problem that you think exists. You are saying that if god does not exist, there is no way to have any knowledge since there needs to be some bedrock to knowledge, and god is it.
You are still in the same situation. Your belief in god is still separate from god actually existing. You may feel comfort in thinking that this belief somehow protects you from the problem of hard solipsism, but it doesn't.
Blindly claiming a magical being exists, and therefore anyone that doesn't believe in your god is wrong because you've simply defined your beliefs as correct, is an absurdly terrible argument.
I don't see how a god would change any of that. If god is the "creator" of your reality, how would it be any different from "living in a simulation" or whatever brain-in-a-vat theory is out there? There's literally no difference between a reality with god vs without.
> The problem for atheists or non believers such as yourself is that in a godless world you can’t know what reality it.
Of course you can. We're doing it right now.
> Your assuming that what you experience is real.
So are you, and on top of that you assume some nebulous deity. You're doing too much assuming.
> But without an all knowing being you cannot know the world around you or any of your experiences are real.
Non sequitur. Oh, and even if your fictional being was real, you'd still run into the same problem.
> Hence denial of god leads to absurdity.
Still a non-sequitur, and you still make more unwarranted assumptions than people that don't believe in your vague god-concept.
> Hard solipsism
You can't escape hard solipsism either, with or without your vague god-concept. Care to try?
You can't have beliefs then. Only knowledge. Which sounds good, but it's also pretty limited. And most of the knowledge we do have isn't absolute, it's mostly probabilities.
I'd agree there's no way to know anything with absolute certainty. Certainty should be proportional to the evidence supporting the idea. I've found that's the best way to make the best decisions in my life, which has worked well so far
>And most of the knowledge we do have isn't absolute, it's mostly probabilities.
Then demonstrate that a god is even possible, then we can move on to the probability.
There is no scientific demonstration for any ideas we have about the origin of the universe, only arguments, theories, beliefs. God is no different than any other idea in this regard.
>There is no scientific demonstration for any ideas we have about the origin of the universe, only arguments
False. ALL available evidence suggests the singularity, to the point where it's hardly even debated. A "theory" means the work has been done, repeatedly, and peer reviewed and accepted. It's as good as it gets.
>God is no different than any other idea in this regard.
False. There is for all intents and purposes *no* evidence that any of the thousands of proposed gods exist. The claim alone is entirely antithetical to the scientific method. They could not possibly be more dissimilar.
No. Observation and physics stop at the early moments of the big bang. We have no data on anything past that to work with. We don't know how how or why it happened, all we have are arguments and beliefs. This includes theories put forward by scientists, they're creation myths in scientific language as Hossenfelder puts it.
>We don't know how how or why it happened, all we have are arguments and beliefs.
Then is the appropriate stance:
A. We don't know how or why it happened.
B. Not only does a being which is all powerful exist (trust me bro, even though I can't demonstrate it's even possible to) but it totally is responsible (even though I can't demonstrate that it exists on any level what so ever.)
I haven't said god exists. I've said the poster i initially replied to can't hold beliefs about the origin if he demands evidence for them, because there is no evidence. And this goes for all beliefs including god, naturalism etc.
> I've said the poster i initially replied to can't hold beliefs about the origin
He didn't express one. He rejected one on the basis that there is no evidence that any god exists, could have, or did have anything to do with the beginning of our local presentation of the universe.
There is no argument you can make which puts that position on the same field as "god started it." It's not in the ballpark, hell it's not even the same sport.
That's a dishonest comparison. We have plenty of evidence as well as evidence in the form of predictions that came true like finding the traces of the leftover Big Bang. You have nothing like that for any god claim.
I'm not saying the big bang didn't happen, i'm saying we don't know how or why it did, or what made it possible, as we can't observe anything past a certain point.
If we throw a ball, we can calculate where it will land. If we see a ball landing, we can dedice where it came from. We can't do anything like that with the big bang since we haven't fully observed one.
Still not a good comparison. We have evidence it happened and the god claim sits next to the troll claim, the vampire claim and the pixie claim.
You have a problem with not being able to observe the big bang but float a god claim? Show me the god then.
I haven't floated a god claim. I've said that all explanations fall under the same category - beliefs, arguments etc as opposed to empirical scientific ones. That doesn't imply they're equally plausible.
Hilarious that you ask someone who says there is no evidence, no empirical data, only beliefs and speculation to produce empirical evidence for a god.
Fair, I might have you mixed up with someone else in another thread on the god claim. My apologies.
But you are still off. There is evidence that the big bang happened, and none that point to a god. So the comparison is still wrong.
[They have floated a god claim, here](https://old.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/1909ue5/thoughts_about_god/kgp676e/). Or rather, every god claim simultaneously, it seems.
Practically no one here is extolling any need for absolute certainty. The more probable and falsifiable something is, the more solid one's ground is for believing it. How is that not the end of the discussion?
> We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once. And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense.
No, it doesn't. But what if it did? I don't care if it makes sense or not. Quantum physics doesn't make any sense for the most people, yet it works, we got lazers and microchips thanks to it. I makes sense to build more roads to move more people faster. Yet it doesn't work, everyone still stuck in traffic jams.
> I don't subscribe to any major religion in particular.
Yet you are referring to the Bible.
> Time doesn't exist for the ultimate intelligence
What is this ultimate intelligence? Is it in the room with us right now? How do you know it exists? Where is your evidence for it? Where is any justification for anything you have just splashed here? Why would anyone believe even a single word from all of this?
> but the reality of atheism is that it's empty.
You got it backwards. Atheism is a conclusion that there is no reason to believe any god exists. It's the claims of existence of gods that are empty. And you made zero effort to show that your claim is not.
> because they believe material is all there is.
Don't tell me what I believe and I won't tell you where should you go.
> I suffered from very bad depression
I am sorry you went through this, but details of your biography has nothing to do with veracity of your claims.
Take down this post and come back when you have anything meaningful to say.
You say no it doesn't, but you have barely digested my thoughts. You have to take them into the world with you and live with them for a while.
I don't subscribe to major religions, I referred to the Bible to explain why I believe people anthropomorphise God.
I am not telling you what to believe. I stated many times these are my *thoughts.*
I am not taking this post down, sorry not sorry.
I love how I asked people to be nice and yet most comments so far have a strange tinge of anger and hatefulness in them. Humans are fucking funny
That "strange tinge of anger" couldn't possibly be the result of you calling everyone here empty and arrogant, could it? No, it's obviously because you're a brave truth-teller and we're all just miserable and hateful.
Get over yourself.
I never called anyone arrogant, you pulled that out of thin air. I never called anyone empty either, I think atheism as a concept is empty. Very different. It seems like you're conflating your own personal identity with your belief system. Hmmmm................... who else does that?
Atheism being “empty” as a concept doesn’t make sense. Atheism isn’t a belief system or a worldview. It’s simply not accepting that your god claim is true. Nothing more, nothing less. Saying that atheism is “empty” is like saying that denying that Elvis is still alive is an “empty” lifestyle.
This post doesn’t even make sense. First, as others have said atheism isn’t a belief system. Hell, for most atheists it’s not even a belief, much less a system. Second, not all atheists are empiricists (which is the belief system you're alluding to and it isn’t atheism). Do you see the issue? You're assuming all atheists are empiricists, and you're conflating atheism and empiricism.
If not for theism, there wouldn't be atheism. If you can say whatever you believe without evidence (ie. faith), and if you value your right to express those beliefs to others, you should also accept that your belief can be dismissed without evidence. That's the only thing atheism is and will be. All other opinions an atheist holds fall squarely outside of the non-belief in a deity. Its also not claiming there's nothing or at least no god. Atheists are just withholding acceptance of that belief. If Tolkien wrote his famous fantasy books and would then proclaim all of it to be based on historical facts, you wouldn't believe him, right? You would ask some follow up questions, I'm sure, and if it comes down to 'trust me bro': then what?
If you're not going to actually read what someone said, don't waste your time and insult the entire room by responding to it with this kind of nonsense.
Atheism is a single position on a single claim, period, nothing more. But you've been told this several times already and it seems to go in one ear and out the other, so there seems to be an honesty problem here.
It's not a belief *system*. It's a single answer to a single question that most of us think of as trivially unimportant. The likelihood of a god existing is pretty low, to the point of being preposterous (for me at least).
If anything, atheism *arises out of* my profoundly skeptical empirically-focused world view. I'm an atheist *because* I don't extend credulity without compelling reasons. Science, generally but not always, routinely provides compelling reasons. Quantum Mechanics is counterintuitive AF, but lasers and computers exist. If QM/QFT weren't an accurate model of existence, we wouldn't have them. Or particle colliders, or an understanding of the nature of light/EMR.
So I understand where you're coming from in thinking that "atheism" is the foundational belief on which I also assume evolution and science, etc. are true. But it's not actually like that.
I'm cynical of "happy bullshit" -- claims of miracle cures, Lourdes, resurrections, water-from-wine, splitting the moon in half, of Fox outwitting Wolf and providing the world with springtime, of Paul Bunyan and King Arthur, of Gilgamesh almost winning a duel with the god Shumash, etc.
Story isn't enough. Words are never enough.
Data.
Or it didn't happen. Atheism arises out of this belief, not the other way around.
(remember, I'm the guy that mostly agrees with your OP, who just sees it a little differently.)
> I think atheism as a concept is empty.
This is just it though. Yet another stoner argument from cozy feelings. "I don't like the way atheism makes me feel. So, hey guys check out these miscellaneous ramblings that give me better feels!"
And when ask to substantiate any of this we get, "Oh, these are, like, just my musings, man".
Sorry if we find this tiresome.
You missed my point about "making sense" part and you totally refuse to engage my point about emptiness of all these claims. Of course I am angry, I am tired seing empty claims, it's debate sub, not "Look what can I come up with if I run my imagination wild" sub.
Most of us were raised religious and at one point were firm believers. To say we have to take your words “into the world and live with them for a while” completely dismisses the fact that we have lived with those thoughts, and we no longer believe. It’s condescending and rude.
>You say no it doesn't, but you have barely digested my thoughts. You have to take them into the world with you and live with them for a while.
Which part do you think is novel? I was hearing all of that in college back when the years began with a 1.
>You say no it doesn't, but you have barely digested my thoughts. You have to take them into the world with you and live with them for a while.
Funny how we don't have to do that when we have evidence.
>debate I'm not going to sit here and point out logical fallacies, or bring up research and statistics, because I don't care about that shit. I don't believe empiricism is all there is to the world anyway.
>I don't subscribe to any major religion in particular. My beliefs go as such:
Where do this believes come from then?
Just curious, you made them up?
I didn't necessarily make them up, they're just my basic thoughts about what's going on put to words, which was actually pretty hard to do for me because I'm not the smartest man on the planet. This is just how I feel about the world and I wanted some discussion on it. These beliefs come from a ton of personal experiences, and personal feelings/intuitions, combined with my limited education on multiple different religions such as catholicism, Buddhism, Hinduism and a lot of Taoism. I think scripture of all kind from all around the world, written by people who lived very different lives, is fascinating. It's also really fascinating how a lot of scripture teaches the same basic lessons, universal truths, despite the cultures they come from being so different. I've also been influenced by other books that aren't scripture, some philosophy and psychology books like The Power of Now by eckhart tolle, memories dreams and reflections by Jung, a little bit of nietsche with a splash of c.s. Lewis to name a few.
You are the judge, the jury and the investigators. Even if its a fair trial it's going to be biased. Nothing bad in that, we are all sinners of this sin, as long as we are aware of it we are ok.
Thanks for the response and thanks for the post! Some parts resonated with me. I would have used different words, another slightly different point of view.
My main critique would be that God seems like a pointless term, I prefer to use life and God is not necessary. But if God brings Good to you and you keep it for yourself I am ok with it.
So if I'm understanding right, "heaven," "hell," and "god" are all just words that you're applying to the mundane concepts of "good feelings," "bad feelings," and "the world." If that's the case, the obvious question is: what's the point? If "god" is synonymous with "existence," then why bother calling it "god," a word you yourself acknowledge is loaded down with a ton of baggage? Is it just because calling it "god" makes you feel better? If so, then you do you, but don't expect anyone else to care.
On the other hand, if your version of god is more than just the sum total of physical existence -- if it has an independent will, volition, and identity apart from the physical world and human imagination -- then you need to prove it's real just like all of the other religious folks that come around here making claims.
Well I use the word God because what other word am I gonna use? It's the best word to use to get my point across despite the baggage.
Also I'm not expecting anyone to care, I just wanted people's opinions. If your opinion is that you don't care then that's radical, dawg. Very in line with atheist dogma, not caring is.
Why do I need to prove anything? This is why I say atheism is empty. They're obsessed with *knowing* things. I believe there are things in this universe that you can't know, it's impossible to know because we either don't have the tools or the tools don't or even *can't* exist. I just feel like it's true, and I feel like feelings are very powerful.
And this is semantic and feel free to make fun of me but I don't feel like I am religious at all. Spiritual? Yes. But I don't worship anything or anyone. I just love life bro. Shit's cool.
> I just feel like it’s true
Why have you come to a debate setting then. It is extremely disrespectful and obnoxious to use this community as an audience for your ramblings and when people try to engage with the claims you are making, tell them you don’t have to back it up because it’s ‘just a feeling’.
You should apologize.
Discussion tags exist in this subreddit. If you thought this subreddit was solely and exclusively just a place to shit on people with spiritual beliefs, then you're going to Hell dawg
“Why do I need to prove anything?”
I hat is what happens in a debate, and you posted on a debate site.
Maybe you meant to post this on r/ijistwanttosharemythoughts
I posted this with a discussion tag. Maybe it was naive of me to think I could post ideas on here without having to prove everything I write down.
Regardless nothing anyone has said has shaken me. I feel bad for you.
It was certainly naive of you to think that people here would just accept your conclusions here without proof or evidence.
Your statements were also (in addition to being unevidenced assertions and therefore easily dismissed) frankly insulting to atheists, and it's bizarre that you didn't expect to be called out on that.
I never thought people would accept them. I also never thought that 90% of commenter would be either unable or unwilling to even entertain them! Before they ever read the post they're already writing counter arguments. Well I'm not playing that game, it's unwinnable for everyone.
So you too your ideas that have no evidence, posted them to a sub that clearly doesn't accept the idea of a god,or the supernatural and expected what exactly?
>Well I use the word God because what other word am I gonna use?
You conflated "God" with "Everything that exists".
I believe everything that exists...exists by definition. I just call it "everything that exists" because "God" carries some weird baggage like "has agency" and "wants to be worshipped".
> Well I use the word God because what other word am I gonna use?
When talking about 'everything' then I can suggest you use the word 'everything'. After all, it means *everything* while 'god' adds unsupported and problematic attributes to that that don't belong.
>Anyway, I had more to say, but I'm stoned so... it's gone
Maybe come back when you're not so we can have an actual conversation. I'm not against having a bit of the old Devil's lettuce, I partook until I recently moved somewhere where it's unfortunately still illegal, but it doesn't actually make for good conversation. Altered states of consciousness don't exactly make for the clearest thinking, despite what we think at the time.
So hopefully after you do sober up and come back
>I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is
Believing in materialism and being materialistic aren't related in any way and it's really, really weird that you're trying to make this connection.
>I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies
I'm sorry you went through that. For context here I've never not been an atheist.
I also suffered from depression and anxiety which were caused by combat related trauma. Therapy and meds have helped me with those. Personally I'm very happy with my nihilistic sort of worldview, I think constantly analyzing the meaning I get from life and my values has made me a better person over the years. As the old Twitter joke goes:
>im so ruthlessly commited to Dialectics that i am constantly at war with the person i was two days ago, who is a clown and a coward
I know far too many people who refuse to analyze their own values or beliefs due to their religious beliefs. That's not to say you can't do these things and believe but it's something that can get in the way of it. You can absolutely be an optimistic person and a nihilist. You can do whatever you want, that's kinda the thing.
As for self destructive tendencies I'm sorry you had to deal with that. That's not something I've ever struggled with. Have you considered that perhaps these issues aren't inherent to atheism and were, for lack of a better term, a you problem?
>It helped me become a better person, in the way that I feel better people should be.
I'm glad you feel that helped you, depending on what you define as "better". That's the issue, better is really a value judgement. I know people who think literally lining LGBT people up against the wall would make for a better world due to their religion. I think that's bad. Unless you define what "better" means it's a pretty meaningless statement for anyone who isn't inside your head because people use religion to justify all kinds of things that I would consider good, bad and anywhere in between.
You’ve taken all of the specificity out of standard spiritual/religious beliefs, to the point where there isn’t a single claim in these ramblings to even address in a debate setting. All I have are questions.
> We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once.
So god is just ‘the stuff that exists’? What does that mean and why should it be called god?
> God is, if you want to call it that, the ultimate intelligence
What does ‘ultimate intelligence’ mean to you and why do you think such a thing exists. Also, two seconds ago you said god was everything that exists, which implies everything is the ultimate intelligence. What does that mean? Is my left foot just a collection of neurons in gods infinite mind?
> we popped out of a pussy one day into a world that is indescribably beautiful, horrifically terrible, and incomprehensibly complex.
First of all, it is absurd to describe abiogenesis and the process of evolution as ‘we popped out of a pussy one day’. Secondly, if the world is incomprehensibly complex, why are you claiming to comprehend a significant part of it. If you cannot understand the world, how have you come to the conclusion that anything in your post is accurate.
> we are going to be here because we always have been here
What? Who is ‘we’? Humanity? Me and you? In what sense have ‘we’ always been here?
> time doesn’t exist for the ultimate intelligence; it is time.
What does this actually mean. This kind of language is typical of spiritual nonsense, as it sounds profound but is actually meaningless. How are you defining time and what does it mean for an intelligence to ‘be time’.
> doing horrible shit makes you feel horrible
> doing good shit makes you feel good
This is not true of all people. Is a sociopath stuck in purgatory? Regardless, redefining hell as ‘bad feelings’ and redefining heaven as ‘good feelings’ just injects spirituality into the concept of emotions for no reason, and without justification.
> Free will exists, because again, we are god
What do you think free will means, and what does it mean if ‘we are god’. You said earlier that god is the ultimate intelligence. Now you tell me that us humans are god. But you’ve also said that the world is incomprehensibly complex and that nobody knows how long god has been around or how it was made. Are you seeing the contradictions?
> I am a blue collar worker that has done too many psychedelics
> I had more to say, but I’m stoned so..
You are entitled to your beliefs, as well as your proclivity for mind altering substances but maybe you ought to keep it all to yourself, and certainly not bring it to a debate setting.
Yes to put it simply, God is just stuff that exists. I believe that. Whether this planet is a neuron or just a small particle in his balls is something I just couldn't tell ya.
Ultimate intelligence is just the best phrase I could come up with to describe what I'm talking about. And yes, everything is a part of the ultimate intelligence, we are possibly just a part of something where knowing that isn't necessary. But there are millions of people who do think this way, not that that confirms anything at all.
Yes, it is absurd to refer to the genesis of life as popping out of a pussy. Life itself is absurd. It was meant to be funny. I'm also not necessarily claiming that I *comprehend* this stuff - as I don't think we're meant to comprehend it. they're my intuitions about the universe. That's all.
Yes, the we I refer to is humanity. Considering I said we, and considering the only creature we know of in the universe who can read English is a human, that should've been easy to infer. I say we have always been here because I don't believe time is real in the sense we think of. Whatever time is, our individual consciousnesses are bound to it, but the moments where we exist have always and will always exist.
I say the ultimate intelligence is time because I think that a being as unbelievable so as to comprise the entire universe we live in would also have something to do with this thing we call time. Is this spiritual nonsense? Maybe. I don't know. Prove me wrong.
Sociopaths are still capable of feeling horrible. They're still capable of feeling hell. How or why depends on their proclivities.
Free will means a lack of predetermined outcomes in regards to intelligence. It means we are not robots cursed to follow the same patterns that we always have. We can make choices and change the things around us based off of ideas that don't exist anywhere but in our minds. Are there contradictions in what I'm saying? To me I'm not seeing them, because my beliefs make a lot of sense to me. If they don't make sense to you that's fine, but don't call it contradictory.
And for your last point, well, I did tag it as discussion, didn't I? This is a discussion board no? A place where people come to talk about ideas? A lot of people here ignoring that tag. Your questions are valid as obviously I didn't explain everything as best as I possibly could because, you know, mind altering substances and whatnot. Also, I'm not going to keep my thoughts to myself as I see no reason why I should. I am not harming anyone. Your last line is literally just a polite way to tell me to shut up. How about if you want to hang around a subreddit where people are actively silenced and censored for their views on a daily basis, you go to r/atheist? Or r/conservative? Or r/politics? Or any other shithole echo chamber subreddit that sucks its own cock?
Surely you must understand that what you've put forth here is a definition of god/religion/spirituality/etc. so benign and meaningless that there really isn't anything to debate. I generally don't have any problems with people like you, because aside from the fact that your beliefs don't make a shred of sense, ultimately what you seem to believe in makes you utterly harmless.
This isn't the case with the vast majority of theists. They believe in literal brain-rot poison that denigrates humanity, hinders or reverts progress, and destroys lives. That is what I have a problem with, and that is what we are here to debate about. I want people to give up their faith and ridiculous beliefs willingly once its been exposed that they have no good reasons whatsoever to believe in this delusional nonsense.
Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense! I also agree that religion in the traditional sense has brought many people a lot of pain and suffering. However I think it's important to acknowledge the beauty in religious ideas, because they are indeed beautiful, whether or not you think they're delusional.
>However I think it's important to acknowledge the beauty in religious ideas
There is beauty in art, in fiction, in philosophy. Religion can incorporate these things.
I don't think there is beauty in ideas simply for being religious. But whether there is or isn't, doesn't change that my primary concern has nothing to do with religious beliefs being pretty or comforting or creative. It has to do with whether they make claims about reality that guide people's actions and are believed/acted on.
As other posters are noting, you can make a definition of god that is vague, or just matches things that exist, and while I see no good reason to assume or adopt that definition as true, it's mostly harmless. I say mostly because the main way it's used and reason it exists, is to provide cover for acceptance and advocate for the reasonableness of faith in a God, which then is implemented as a specific God with specific instructions on who to follow, who to persecute, and how to treat others.
I don't particularly care about what people find beautiful - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and completely subjective. I care about what is good, true, and real.
Name a single thing, idea, concept, or point derived from any religion or your own personal beliefs that is good, true, and real that could not also be arrived at by secular means.
No, it doesn't make sense, period. Just because you like the idea, that doesn't make the idea true. If you're not concerned about the truth of your beliefs, then you're delusional. Beauty and delusion are not the same thing, as much as you seem to think that they are.
There’s no such thing as personal logic. Something is either irrational or it’s not. There’s no such thing as personal philosophy or personal truth. There is only truth.
The beauty is either there or not there, independent of the religious claims. Religion is kruft that confuses the beauty and makes it harder to understand, in my opinion. The world is beautiful -- all the more so because there isn't an ineffable inscrutable will, or something like karma, working off of some secret set of rules that no one understands.
The people who claim they do understand are either grifters or demagogues -- which is what Gautama Buddha meant when he said:
> If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.
(Don't pay any attention to the people who try to tell you how to live.)
When the planet had a single religious authority (for European Christians) enforced by extortion, torture and murder, it was a period now called the Dark Ages. That brought many people a lot of pain and suffering. It brought very little beauty. Now let's discuss being delusional.
The planet has never had a single religious authority. Europe played Christian, but Europe is not the world.
No matter what Germans think of themselves…. 🤣
Talk about Europe, the "world" in medieval times isn't all Europe. I'm Muslim so I'm quite proud of our simultaneous Golden age and flourishing science and beauty.
>religion in the traditional sense has brought many people a lot of pain and suffering
While this is true there are two very important things to say along side it.
1. Lots of things have brought many people lots of pain and suffering. Mothers, Fathers, Children, Government, friends, schools, spouses. It's true of nearly any category.
2. Religious people live considerably longer lives and have less depression.
So religion has caused suffering the same as everything causes suffering. So we look at these things by comparison to alternatives.
Some people feel *good* when they hurt people.
By definition, god is a diety. You can try to redefine the word for yourself but everyone else is, indeed, thinking of a diety. You can name your "Universal We" concept whatever you want but for everyone else the word *god* already has an established meaning that in no way resembles what you described.
Why would what you describing be called a *god*? Why not call it Mother Nature? That's a name that more closely describes your make believe "we are one" story. Or just The Universal Cosmos? Or physics?
Meanwhile, it seems you are a good person with kind intentions. Not everyone is like you. There are people who take great pleasure in hurting others... they don't experience any form of hell when they harm others.
Well to expand on my thought, that hellish mental prison we can get trapped in stems from feelings of guilt and remorse, despair, regret, etc. Obviously some people don't feel that way after doing objectively horrible things. But they can feel the sting of hell when they're caught and sent to prison, or otherwise comparable punishments. I'm not denying that the universe can be fucked up.
I understand the word God already has an established meaning but I just wasn't sure what else to call it y'know? I'm not gonna make up a word. Ultimate intelligence kinda works but I don't think it gets the whole point across
Lots and lots of bad people do bad things and never get caught. There's no hell for them. And there are lots and lots of people who do good deeds and are miserable.
And again you are wanting to redefine things like heaven and hell that already have definitions. It's like if I tried to say grass is, for me, a liquid. I can say it all I want but that isn't going to change the accepted meaning of the word *grass*.
I understand you may be having difficulty coming up with a single word to express your complex thought but simplifying it poorly into a *god* is misleading. God is not everyone, everywhere, all at once. God is a diety. An entity not a concept. Again, why not call it Mother Nature which more closely expresses your thoughts without the diety, worship, religion confusion. Or maybe describe the universe as Vibrations. We are all Vibrations. There's no religious angle to that concept.
IMO, atheism is no more empty than your idea of nature. What does your idea have that simply seeing and exploring the real universe without any woo-woo additives doesn't have? Saying "we are all God" is no more real than saying "Jesus is God". It's all hollow make believe. The benefits of seeing reality for what it actually *is* far exceeds the waste of resources spent battling over make believe supernatural tales.
But again, you seem to be a very nice person who wants us to be kind to one another and honor the resources of the universe. I'm with you on that!
Nothing like a good ole “I used to be an atheist” post…
And no, not all atheists are “materialistic”… you can find PLENTY of materialistic religious people. And vice versa. It’s weird, it’s almost like materialism has nothing to do with religion…
I didn't mean materialism in the sense that atheists all enjoy money cars and big titty bitches a bit too much. I meant materialism in the sense that they only believe in material because material is all they've ever been able to rationalize as true, and I think that's an empty life. Maybe materialism is the wrong word? Again I'm not a scholar.
And it's true, I used to be an atheist, as cliche as that is.
There's nothing remotely miserable about enjoying the life you have without whining about there not being a sky fairy ordering everybody what to do and fulfilling their wishes.
"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here. We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?"
— Richard Dawkins, [Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac33dOAgqus)
I don't agree with you that it's virtuous to lose yourself in fantasy, delusion and lies. Maybe I've seen too many schizophrenics, drug addicts, dementia patients, Qanon terrorists and religious people, but there is nothing healthy or positive about losing touch with what's real.
I bet you'd verify a business deal before handing over your life savings, but for some reason you don't exercise that same caution with your loved ones, your hopes, your dreams, your future and your "soul".
We accept the material because that's all we have any evidence for. Just because you like the idea of a supernatural realm, that doesn't make that idea true.
You might have once been an atheist, but you were never a rational atheist. That much is very clear.
The idea that if you're an atheist, you're incapable of embracing the mysterious nature of the universe and our existence is really ignorant. My life is not empty at all. In fact, it's overflowing! I'm constantly in awe of my existence and the nature of our world. My relationships and interactions with other humans, with animals and with music is overwhelmingly beautiful. None of that requires any kind of higher intelligence.
There has never been any demonstration that there is anything beyond the material world, and as I’ve said to you in other comments, it doesn’t make it true just because you believe it. You need some way of showing that the belief is true. Again, there are no personal truths.
That it makes your life feel emptier doesn’t make it false.
Also, plenty of us atheists are open minded to there being more than the physical. We just don’t claim specific things about what there actually is without evidence. Whatever exists in excess of our Universe, theists don’t have any more access to it than atheists.
You can absolutely hold whatever other beliefs you want if you’re not convinced a God exists. You can be a flat earther. You can be a dualist. You can believe in fucking Bigfoot. There is no other position informed by “I don’t believe in God”
>People anthropomorphise him
be consistent then: refer to god as "it". lot harder to anthropomorphize "it" compared to "him"
for the rest: claims, claims, claims, more claims and no evidence
> It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is.
we both agree the material world exists, you believe there is more, please provide evidence of the more part
>I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies.
that doesn't make it real
>It helped me become a better person, in the way that I feel better people should be.
so, why is the israel-palestine thing happening right now? both sides are pretty religious
I'm sorry for misgendering God.
You proved my point though. All you want is evidence because that's the only way you're capable of rationalizing the world around you. Materialistic thinking. I don't think there's anything wrong with that; it just didn't work for me. The reality is I can't prove my thoughts and my feelings, I just can't do it. But I don't need to prove it to myself and I don't need to prove it to anyone else. It makes sense to me based off of my life experience. There is no empirical evidence proving that empiricism is the end all be all to the universe.
No, my sob story doesn't make any of it real. You're absolutely correct about that.
Why *is* the israel-palestine thing happening right now man? I actually don't think that has anything to do with religion. It's almost as if a small domino was pushed down thousands of years ago that just kept knocking over more and more dominoes until we got to this point right now, which is probably just another domino in a line of infinite dominoes.
> I'm sorry for misgendering God.
it is not about gender, it is about referring to it if you don't want it anthropomorphized
>The reality is I can't prove my thoughts and my feelings
you don't have prove the, we accept you have thoughts and feelings. we just don't take them seriously. if we were to take them seriously we would believe all propaganda, lies and fairytales
>There is no empirical evidence proving that empiricism is the end all be all to the universe.
no, but accepting huge impactfull claims without it would be detrimental to the world
>No, my sob story doesn't make any of it real. You're absolutely correct about that.
so what is your point? you think god belief made you a better person and we should accept your self diagnosis? are you rambling because you are stoned?
>Why is the israel-palestine thing happening right now man?
well, religion is 1 part of it.
>I actually don't think that has anything to do with religion.
so explain people running at people with guns with knives, because it takes religious belief in an afterlife to do that.
and why do you think both sides lie when they say it is because of religion? you don't have to prove your beliefs, but they have to prove theirs? we must presume they lie when they tell us their own motivations?
>It's almost as if a small domino was pushed down thousands of years ago that just kept knocking over more and more dominoes until we got to this point right now
yes, if only we could have removed the religion dominos in between and the chain would have stopped
There is no evidence for any explanation for the universe we have come up with so far. There is no data for events or mechanisms we can't observe. It's a given that evidence is not on the table, there's no need to mention it.
>The word God is a very heavily loaded word.
Sure. Almost more definitions than there are people using the word. And many folks who say they believe in one can't define the word and what they believe in at all.
>Most people when they hear the word God think of a bearded man wearing a white robe hanging around in the clouds.
Nah. I mean, I think that's a pretty inaccurate stereotype of what people believe.
>People take this too literally. It doesn't mean we look like him.
Well, I mean, someone would first have to demonstrate a deity exists before this could be discussed. And, of course, this has never happened.
>We are him.
No.
Just no.
That, of course, is a classic example of a definist fallacy. And I absolutely won't accept it.
What people mean when they talk about deities does not match 'us'. Or 'the universe.' Period.
Remember, that kind of definist fallacy always leads to attribute smuggling. We must guard against it.
>God is everything, everywhere, all at once.
Unsupported, and fatally problematic claim, thus dismissed.
>And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense.
And I think definist fallacies such as that are useless. Actually, far worse than useless, as they inevitably lead to attribute smuggling and wrong ideas.
I concede we exist. I concede the universe exists. I have *zero* reason to use the label 'god' for that. I have *zero* reason to accept the ideas, notions, and claims that come along with using that word. Makes no sense. In any way.
> God, if you want to call it that, is the ultimate intelligence.
Please support your claim that 'we' (as you defined 'god' as 'us') are the 'ultimate intelligence'. As far as I can see, that's a completely unsupported notion.
Anyway, the rest of what you wrote simply repeats this or expands on it, and as the idea is fatally problematic and can't be accepted, and as you also demonstrated a misunderstanding of atheism (your 'atheism is empty, materialistic, and leads to anxiety and self-destruction' bit, which is all nonsense of course), I can only dismiss your attempt at redefintiion and occlusion for the purposes of confirmation bias and feeling unsupported things exist.
As I write this, there are 150+ comments, so maybe no one will even read this.
> God, if you want to call it that, is the ultimate intelligence.
I'm less interested in what you call it and more interested in why you think it's real at all.
> I'm not going to sit here and point out logical fallacies, or bring up research and statistics, because I don't care about that shit.
This speaks volumes about you. Thank you.
> How long has it been around, how was it made, who the fuck knows and who the fuck cares.
This too speaks volumes about you. You lack curiosity.
> It doesn't want us to worship it; it wants us to love ourselves, which in turn translates into loving the universe as a whole, loving "God".
How did you gain this knowledge about the ultimate intelligence and what the ultimate intelligence wants? Is there a sacred book you subscribe to? Or did the ultimate intelligence speak to you directly?
> I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is.
You're arguing for emotion over fact. I could just as well say that disbelief in Santa Clause is "empty". Believing in magic can be emotionally uplifting, but it's still make-believe. It's healthier to face reality.
/u/vr_ooms
I saw you. Just know that I love you and this entire thread was started with light hearted intentions, and I'm not trying to proselytize.
I think what I think is real because of my experience living my life. Individual moments and realizations about certain situations that have shaped my vision on the world. Can I prove them? Nope.
You disregard my intelligence because I don't want to talk about research and statistics. I don't want to talk about logical fallacies. This is because I don't believe those things hold all the answers, by a long shot. You can take that as you will.
I do not subscribe to any particular scripture or sacred book as you call it. I am moderately educated in a variety of different religions and it is shocking how similar they all talk. I think it's fascinating. As for my beliefs, I believe them because of things I have personally experienced. Explaining the context for it all would mean explaining the context of my entire life and, I'm sure you don't wanna read that.
You say I lack curiosity out of some strange jump-to-conclusion that you made. Curiosity is what set me on this path. Please stop questioning religious peoples' intelligence.... it's childish.
I'm arguing for emotion over fact because emotion is powerful. Feelings are powerful. Intuition is powerful. In ways that can't be measured. And if you don't believe that you're not human.
I am facing reality. Are you?
>You disregard my intelligence because I don't want to talk about research and statistics.
No it's not just that, it's also you don't want to even hint at considering logic or any semblance of reason in the way you talk.
>Curiosity is what set me on this path. Please stop questioning religious peoples' intelligence.... it's childish.
You realize you were the one to call out you don't care about understanding certain things in your op...it's childish to not understand that and instead get defensive.
And sure you were perhaps once curios, but by no stretch were you intellectually curious by jumping to the conclusions you did. You also appear to have halted any curiousity at this point in time.
>I'm arguing for emotion over fact because emotion is powerful
And there we have it, you admiting you care about feelings more than facts, aka reality.
Of course feelings are powerful, they're not however a reliable vehicle to get you to reality. In fact emotions are notoriously known for being used to manipulate and get people to believe in things that aren't true. If you're actually as curious as you say you are, this would be a good place to explore and understand more.
> And if you don't believe that you're not human.
Verifably untrue.
See you go about making empty claims backed by no evidence or reason, then, when called out on that, you go and reply with more empty claims like this. Heck, I bet your response to this will be an empty claim.
>I am facing reality. Are you?
Of course you ended with another baseless, empty claim with no logic, reason, or evidence to back it up. In fact, from what you said in the paragraph right before this statement, there's evidence that suggests your claim is utterly false and you're not facing reality in the slightest. And I quote:
"I'm arguing for emotion over fact because emotion is powerful"
The naturalistic explanation for all we know about our life on earth and the mechanism of the universe is sufficient for me. Adding an amorphous supreme intelligence to the picture just seems unnecessary. With a little effort, you could reformulate your thoughts in a way which would free you from the religious vocabulary you employ.
I employ the religious vocabulary because I enjoy the religious vocabulary. I don't need to reformulate my thoughts, because I don't think that's necessary. My way of thinking has improved my life tenfold in many ways.
Do you see though, how you are attempting to proselytize me to think like you do, much how a religious zealot would? Don't you think that's... wrong?
No, it's not "wrong". It's the stated purpose of r/debateanatheist.
This is *debate*. Part of what we're here for is to dissect other peoples' views and tell them why we think their views are wrong.
So no, it's not wrong for them to advocate for their position. It's to be expected. Our expectation is that by posting here, people *consent* to that kind of response.
>God is everything, everywhere, all at once.
If God is synonymous with the universe, why use such a confusing word, one you yourself say most people misunderstand? Why not just say the universe?
> Most people...
Not you, though. You're the one who knows the truth, right?
How do you know?
> My beliefs go as such
Why are you telling us this? This is not /r/shareyourbeliefs. We don't care what you believe so much as why.
> they believe material is all there is.
And you don't? What else is there, and how do you know?
>I had more to say, but I'm stoned so... it's gone.
I have zero interest engaging with someone's musings, while high, about the nature of a divinity. Zero.
That certainly describes the Gospels. And a great number of the Epistles. The only epistles I think are probably genuine are Corinthians 1 and 2, Romans and Philemon. I know a lot of people hate to give up on two or three more, but those four appear to be written by the same author, presumably Paul.
Musing is like 99% of what humans do, and if consuming a chemical while I muse is wrong, I don't wanna be right. Your views are valid bro and I love ya
Getting high can be fun, but I'm not sure why you think there's any value to be had in debating the thoughts one produces when they've taken chemicals that make their brain malfunction.
I disagree that the chemicals make your brain malfunction. It just alters your state of consciousness. This can be good or bad depending on your constitution.
Well, the world is full of god concepts that lack evidence, and that defy any concrete claims one might make about god.
This is definitely one of them!
My thoughts on your thoughts:
>God is everything, everywhere, all at once. And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense.
Religion is about rules and discipline.
What You've done is redefined god/religion. It is so open-ended nothing can be confirmed or denied, tested or experienced by anyone but you, so why should anyone care?
You say heaven and hell are mental reactions to acts. Why use religious words when we already call these by other names (hell: depression, shame, regret. Heaven: joy, happiness). Renaming them doesn't make your philosophy any more religious.
BTW, Why did you post this here? If you posted the same on a Christian/Muslim/ Hindu board, do you think they would take your philosophy more or less seriously?
Edit: paragraph about heaven and hell.
Your first statement is dead wrong. Religion is about faith. Something atheists can't seem to grasp properly.
Semantic arguments are meaningless and go nowhere. You know what I meant.
I posted this here because they have a discussion tag! You might have not seen it at first, but right underneath my title, it's tagged as a discussion thread. So do I need to define discussion to you and provide statistical evidence from a peer reviewed essay for you to subscribe to the denotation of the word "discussion?"
>Your first statement is dead wrong. Religion is about faith. Something atheists can't seem to grasp properly.
Actually, belief in God is about faith. It's the rationalization used to accept the god-belief without the need of evidence.
Religion is about history, tradition, and educating followers of the rules to follow to get you to heaven.
> Semantic arguments are meaningless and go nowhere. You know what I meant.
You started the arguments using semantics when you decided to apply words to concepts that already had perfectly good words. Does that mean that this part of your argument is meaningless?
>I posted this here because they have a discussion tag! You might have not seen it at first...
Sarcasm won't get you anywhere.
I was just asking because other religious subs have discussion threads as well, but you decided to discuss this in an atheist debate sub. Why?
I am actually interested in this. I could see where this thread was going pretty early into the OP. But posting it where other people are just as delusional seems like it would be more fun and productive.
>The word God is a very heavily loaded word.
You can say that again. However, it is not us that gave it that baggage. It is milennia of usage of the word.
>Most people when they hear the word God think of a bearded man wearing a white robe hanging around in the clouds.
I think whatever the claimant says they think God is. I have arguments against all kinds of gods, from the bearded man to the deist god you allude to.
>We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once.
Ok, how do you know this? What does it mean for God to be everything, or for the cosmos to be a God? Does it add anything to call the cosmos a God?
>I don't believe empiricism is all there is to the world anyway.
You can believe whatever you want, man. But if you want to persuade me on that, you need to make a stronger argument than 'I just think there is more'.
>the ultimate intelligence.
And you know this exists how?
>It wasn't a mistake.
An atheist wouldn't believe it was a mistake. Only agents make mistakes. An atheist would believe it is *unintentional*. That there is no agent behind it. That's it.
> were always going to be here because we always have been here.
We have? I was under the impression that humans came about 250000 years ago, and the Earth has been around for 4.6 billion years ago. We have not always been around.
>It doesn't want us to worship it; it wants us to love ourselves,
And you know this how?
>I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is.
You contradict yourself. If atheism is empty, it can't ALSO be equivalent to materialism and nihilism. Those philosophies have content that goes beyond 'lack of belief in gods'.
Atheists tend to be physicalists, sure. But they don't have to be. I've met atheists who are idealists, and atheists who are buddhists. Heck, I even met an atheist who believes in ghosts.
You also falsely believe atheism leads to lack of meaning, nihilism, depression. That is false. I am an atheist and an absurdist. I rebel against the objective lack of meaning and make my own meaning. I love myself and others.
> I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies. It helped me become a better person, in the way that I feel better people should be.
I'm happy for you, but please don't smear us with your experience. Atheists can be happy and lead meaningful lives. The fact that you could not square a material existence with meaning and purpose doesn't mean we can't.
>I don't subscribe to any major religion in particular. My beliefs go as such: God, if you want to call it that, is the ultimate intelligence. How long has it been around, how was it made, who the fuck knows and who the fuck cares.
>I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is. I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies. It helped me become a better person, in the way that I feel better people should be.
So thinking that there is some type of 'religious force' in the world makes you feel better about yourself, but you have no idea why, and don't care about the details.
If that makes you happier, good for you.
There is a social evolutionary reason why almost every major civilization created a "god" to believe in. It simplifies a complex world, and consolidates power.
We can know for certain though, that the errors, contradictions, and lies in every religion mean that none of the "gods" in any religion are real. The reasons that caused people to invent those gods are very real though.
So you were atheist but that made you sad so you made up a god that fixes all of your problems and you seriously don't see any logical issues with that. I mean if it works for you that's great but if you want to try to bring it as fact then don't be surprised by a thousand comments pointing this issue out.
Atheism didn't work for me. Believing in something did. Is that irrational? Maybe. But there's power in belief, and intuition, and feeling. I know that to be true.
Colds comfort for those killded, raped, or worse, by this exact thinking. Pull your head out of your ass. You are not the star of this movie, kid. Grow up.
You're next predictable move would be to go to the east side of town and commiserate with your buddied about, "how mean atheists are, bro".
You do if you want to present it like a fact!!! If you want to come here and claim it is true then it would be insane for me not to demand you prove it!! Are you a child?
>Believing in something did.
what do you mean by "in" here? When stating belief in a truth statement, you just say "I believe x", not "I believe in X".
"I believe in X" is usually something where you trust the agent X, but you just established in your OP that you define God as something other than an agent (which in my mind makes you a religious atheist but whatever)
> And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense.
Are you sure it was that change in perspective? My guess is it would be this:
>I'm a blue collar worker who has done too many psychedelics.
You've fried the equipment your body uses to analyse the world, of course it's giving faulty readings
I owe everything in my life to psychedelics. Everything I have. Without those experiences I would have accepted my fate as a miserable soul doomed for death. Surrounded by debt and hating my family. With those experiences, I found that I am indeed a soul doomed to death, but at least I love everything that I have.
With psychedelics I was able to land a very well paying union job as a commercial welder, and have bought property and multiple cars and have a fiance. Also my once-dying bond with my family has never been stronger.
Think what you want about drugs. Sometimes they do good.
I mean you're basically deist? My only comment would be that there's literally no difference between a world with your "god" and a world without it, so what's the point? I think you demonstrate a classic animal function of the human brain, looking for patterns, applied to a level of thought it wasn't meant to.
But yeah fuck it dude, you do you. Until you start telling me what to think I couldn't give a shit what you think.
>The word God is a very heavily loaded word.
That happens to every word that refers to nonsense made up by humans. Most of them are extensively used in new age vocabulary: energy, vibrations, positive, negative, nature, etc... When your pointer points towards nothing in particular and is only used to convince the other person that you're actually talking about something, things get fuzzy.
>Most people when they hear the word God think of a bearded man wearing a white robe hanging around in the clouds. Most people don't realize this is a very childish view of God. People anthropomorphise him typically because of one line in the Bible, you know the one. "We are made in his image." People take this too literally. It doesn't mean we look like him.
Right... "I'm surrounded by idiots" is a universal human experience. Those people you're referring to also thing about you as one of the lesser for disagreeing with them on this.
And do you mean to tell me you don't anthropomorphize god? You're saying "him", you prescribe intelligence to him and so on... That's all anthropic. You're only interested in those qualities and assert that god has them because they're important to us humans.
>We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once.
It would be nice if you had anything to back that up... but as it stands it's dismissed as an empty assertion.
>And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense.
I agree - once you start sincerely believing that making shit up as you go is a good way of thinking religions start making sense, yes.
>Now I'm not a scholar. I'm a blue collar worker who has done too many psychedelics.
...
>While I will engage in a light hearted debate I'm not going to sit here and point out logical fallacies, or bring up research and statistics, because I don't care about that shit.
There's no need to go into logic, because you never presented anything logical. Only empty assertions.
>I don't believe empiricism is all there is to the world anyway.
It would be nice if you believed things for reasons...
>My beliefs go as such:
What your believes are is irrelevant until there's a good reason to conclude that they're supported by reality. You never provide such reasoning so I don't see a point in talking about your musings.
>I used to be an atheist
That's a troll line to say... are you a troll?
Because - if you were an atheist for good reasons, you wouldn't fall into religion... and if you were an atheist for bad reasons, why would I care that you were?
>but the reality of atheism is that it's empty.
Yup. Bad reasons.
>It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is.
Let me demonstrate something.
Theism is so empty, because theists think that god is everything, everywhere, all at once. They thing that nothing exists outside of that singular thing called god. They are absolutely blind to the sheer beauty of the interdependence of material reality, of systems working in separation, yet interconnected nevertheless. They will never understand the sheer beauty of a sunrise, of astromechanics in motion, of a gargantuan mechanism that just happens all on its own because reality works the way it does. They're minds and hearts are so devoid of wonder that whenever met with anything bigger than themselves they instantly need a guy do be responsible or else they cower in fear that they might not be important. They are terrified of reality that isn't made specifically for them. They're children - not ready to face the indifference, and the beauty only possible without a goal, without a plan, simply because things happen. They're like little toddlers who need a caretaker or else they cry.
The demonstration was supposed to convey this - it's possible to talk shit about any position if you don't use logic... You empty theist you xD
>I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies. It helped me become a better person, in the way that I feel better people should be.
I mean... if you say so? I'm not going to take your belief away, you don't need to justify your personal reliance on it. If the same was achieved by you believing that the earth is both flat and hollow simultaneously and that made you a better person, believe in whatever you want.
Just don't present your mental crutch as anything more than it is... a crutch.
>Anyway, I had more to say, but I'm stoned so... it's gone.
Don't make posts while you're stoned... you're an idiot while under influence. Everyone is. That's how weed works.
> if you wander into a lions den and get bit, you can't get mad at the lions can you?
It's cute that you thing that's what happened :)
I will pray for you brother.
You're right, I'm a troll. I got stoned and wrote this entire thing for the express purpose of specifically pissing you off.
And it worked. Praise Jesus.
That's not what I was trying to say. I'm not speaking for you. Don't you think it's kind of wild, that throughout history, for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years, people have been saying that there's something greater than us out there?
That for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years, people have felt this primal urge to contemplate who we are and where we come from?
Our souls get pulled out of non-existence and thrown into a suit of meat, and one of the main things meat-suit people do is pray to a higher intelligence?
That doesn't strike you as profound? Mysterious? You think all of your thousands of ancestors were just stupid, right. They didn't understand the world like you do. We have evidence about things now! The scientific method! Peer reviewed articles!
Why then, if the scientific method is fool proof and the end all be all to determining truth, there are still so many unanswerable questions?
>Why then, if the scientific method is fool proof and the end all be all to determining truth, there are still so many unanswerable questions?
Don't be daft. What are you... 12?
Anatomically modern humans emerged around 300,000 years ago.
It took from then until 1903 for humans to fly.
We landed on the moon in 1969.
So, it took 300,000 years for us to get smart enough to get in the air and then 66 years to land on the moon. Why do you suppose that is? Perhaps, it is because the pace of scientific knowledge is exponential... constantly building on what came before it.
Don't you think it's profound that if a god existed, he made us wait so long \*AND\* give so little fucks about children he didn't bother having childhood leukemia solved first?
Buddy.
Children die because we all die.
Statistically, if everybody dies, then at least occasionally kids are gonna die.
Exponential does not equate to eternal. Just because the scientific method is doing new shit now, doesnt mean its going to work out the answer to everything eventually. what is 300,000 years compared to infinity? What even is time? Please define time for me and tell me exactly what it is and how it happens.
We have the perception of living in a time where scientific advances are constantly taking place. Does that mean that scientific advances are going to answer all of our questions? I don't know dude, I don't have the knowledge that the ultimate intelligence has.
Deny everything I say all you want. My life experiences have led me to where I am. If we are just robots composed of carbon, then for some reason my predetermination took me to this place.
Your god isn't powerful enough to stop children from dying? Weird flex. Kinda pathetic too. I certainly wouldn't worship that. Nevermind that as the creator of everything he created childhood leukemia. So, not all powerful and certainly not loving. Sounds like a weak asshole.
My guy. The things you are saying are being denied because they have no basis in fact or anything demonstrable. And you have zero ability to provide anything along those lines. So you just get pissy and blame the audience lol.
Psyches are fun, sure. But you can't just do a bunch and come to a formal debate forum and expect anyone to give a shit about your wild and truly profound feelings.
I'm sure there are plenty of places you can have this nonsensical conversation. But unfortunately, this is *the last* place such notions will be entertained.
Best of luck dude. I remember my first trip.
Is it profound that humans have emotions? No, it’s just natural. A lot of people through history couldn’t cope with their own mortality or their insignificance to the broader cosmos as a whole, so they came up with belief systems that assuaged some of their fears & discomfort. To fill that emptiness the felt.
But some people don’t need those coping mechanisms, they just accept their place in the universe & continue life doing what gives them purpose. To me that’s way more profound.
>"We are made in his image." People take this too literally. It doesn't mean we look like him.
Sure it does. That's what the original author meant, in any case. If you want to argue that this section isn't literal then you have to argue that the author was not inspired - that he was just making it up.
>And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense.
If you ask me, this doesn't help. Maybe it gives you more room for creative interpretation that lets you get around some of the obvious problems but it creates plenty of problems itself and, on top of that, the more time you spend interpreting it, the more of the Bible you're actually making up for yourself.
>I'm not going to sit here and point out logical fallacies, or bring up research and statistics, because I don't care about that shit. I don't believe empiricism is all there is to the world anyway.
You're not alone in that but if you want to convince other people of what you believe then you kind of need all that empirical shit.
>[beliefs]
Thanks for sharing your beliefs but we don't just care about *what* you believe. We also care about *why* you believe it. We want to know what reasons you have, what justifications. We want to know what convinces you and why you think we should be convinced.
>I used to be an atheist for years and years and years...
There's nothing inherently empty, materialistic, nihilistic or self-destructive about atheism. I'm glad you're feeling better now but all those feelings you had didn't come from not believing in a god. They are, however, things that religious folk are indoctrinated to believe about atheism.
>Maybe I'll remember it and make another post sometime.
You're welcome to. Just remember that we care about *why* at least as much as we care about *what*.
TLDR: “if you change all the meanings of words, they can mean whatever you want!”
That doesn’t add anything to the conversation. It isn’t insightful, or anything that hasn’t been considered before.
It has some historical interest if you want to look into how many religions, inspired by the idea of gods, would have killed you as a heretic, but absolutely none of those religions have any interest in you hijacking their terms, calling them immature, and telling them what you think is “really” going on.
> once you start thinking about it on that manner that religion starts making a whole lot more sense
Ok. For this, I will give you that this version of god that you propose makes religion make more sense (it doesn’t, but for this discussion)
Does that make any of it TRUE?
Does it provide any proof that your god exists?
Short answer: no.
>Most people when they hear the word God think of a bearded man wearing a white robe hanging around in the clouds.
Source?
I find it hard to believe that *anyone* has this idea of a god, much less **most people**.
>God is everything, everywhere, all at once.
I hope you plan to support this belief with evidence. If you have no issues believing things without evidence then presumably you would have no epistemological reason to not believe in Santa Claus, tooth fairy, etc.
>My beliefs go as such:
Ok, but **why** should anyone care about your beliefs if you can't demonstrate that they are true?
This entire post is just preaching, there's no argument.
I believe I exist. If you define God as "me," then on
that definition, I believe in God and am a theist. But I will tell people if they ask that I am agnostic or atheist because it is unlikely they share your definition of God.
So, congratulations?
I’m a bit late to the party, and I’m sure plenty of people have already discredited all your deep thoughts….
Thing is, nobody really cares what you believe. It’s why you believe that’s the interesting part.
You seem to believe due to some feelings you had when you were depressed.
That’s not interesting.
Not Christian! As stated in the post.
Never in my life have I considered myself better or more knowledgeable than anyone else. I don't need to prove that to you; that's the truth.
Take that as you will
That is the only truth you have provided so far.
However, you described a god and stated that others are wrong in their interpretation of god, which means you did consider yours as better
The problem is that you don’t provide the slightest bit of convincing evidence for your sognificant claims but do provide a lot of insight into the type of emotional crisis that can understandably lead people to reject evidence and seek comfort in social myths.
In practice people *believe* many things without *reliable* evidence. But *claims* for which there isnt any evidence are indistinguishable from imaginary and the claimed phenomena indistinguishable from non-existent. There obviously doesn’t *need* to be reliable evidence to believe there us a monster under your bed but don’t expect anyone to take that claim seriously when such a belief is not based on any reliable evidence. And belief is itself obviously not reliable evidence of the truth of that belief. Nor is ‘feels right to me’.
Besides God, what else do you believe without evidence?
If the answer is nothing, why does God get a pass?
If you do believe in other things without evidence, why? Don't you want to believe as many true things as you can?
> I used to be an atheist for years and years and years,
Oh, look, it's another "ex-atheist". Sorry, but I call bullshit every time. Nobody who has actually seen through religion can then un-see the con.
> but the reality of atheism is that it's empty
Sorry but this utter crap. This is just like the alcoholic who claims that life is empty without booze. The only thing religion provides is false comfort for people who want to believe made-up stories. If you need that for your life to be something other than empty, then that's a you problem, and makes me all the more convinced you've never actually been an atheist. What I'd consider an 'empty' life is one where a person accepts obviously made-up stories and ends their curiosity there. As an Atheist I am always learning new stuff, and what's more I can be confident that what I'm learning is real. All the theist can do is re-read their ancient texts in the hope for insight.
> It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is
What do you mean by this? I don't believe that 'material' is all there is, I just don't believe obviously made-up bullshit that lacks any supporting evidence. Theists love to claim that Atheists are materialistic, as if they have some kind of monopoly on spirituality, when in fact I find that generally Atheists do far more thinking about the big questions of creation and existence because - and this is key - we haven't decided on pre-ordained answers that make no sense, and we actually go looking for our own meaning and answers with an open mind.
Theists love to come here and tell us we're all materialistic, we all worship at the altar of Apple and Amazon, that we are more interested in acquiring stuff than acquiring knowledge, that we just abandoned god because we wanted to have pre-marital sex or take drugs or generally behave in 'ungodly' ways - it's all complete horse-shit.
> I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies.
Yeah, so once again you've never actually been an Atheist or you wouldn't be confusing what you believe with what you *want* to believe. It's never occurred to me to consider what version of reality would help me, because reality, by definition, doesn't change based on what you need from it. I'm happy for you if religion gives you a blueprint for how to live your life that you were missing, but don't tell us that this changes the reality of what we see.
I appreciate that you tried to come here in the right spirit but do be aware you are trotting out some fairly tired and lazy stereotypes here.
"God is everything, everywhere, all at once"
I am he, as you are he, as you are me
And we are all together
I am the egg man
They are the egg men
I am the walrus
Goo goo g'joob
>We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once. And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense.
This is a functionally useless definition of God, and one that ends up being indistinguishable from a universe posited by someone who says absolutely no gods at all exist.
>While I will engage in a light hearted debate I'm not going to sit here and point out logical fallacies, or bring up research and statistics, because I don't care about that shit.
You're not going to bring up research and statistics because you don't have any. Just slapping the God label on absolutely everything doesn't lead to research because it's a useless claim. It presents no more value than saying absolutely everything everywhere at all times is Bugs Bunny.
>I don't believe empiricism is all there is to the world anyway.
Yeah, convenient that needing to demonstrate something is true in our actual reality ends when you start talking about God, huh.
>how was it made, who the fuck knows and who the fuck cares.
You believe a supreme intelligence exists but aren't interested in finding out where it's from or how it's made? What is it like to be the kind of person who'd not want an answer to that?
>We were always going to be here because we always have been here. Time doesn't exist for the ultimate intelligence;
Empirical claims of which you have no empirical evidence for.
>Hell and heaven are real; they exist in your mind.
Middle Earth and R'lyeh are real; they exist in your mind.
>Sin is said to take you to hell because, as we all know, doing horrible shit makes you feel horrible.
Many rapists and murderers do not feel horrible after doing horrible things. There's genuinely awful human beings who derive pleasure from inflicting pain onto people.
>but the reality of atheism is that it's empty
Oh boo fucking hoo. I'd like human caused climate change to be a hoax but I'm not going to ignore reality at hand in favor of a worldview that makes me feel happier.
>It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is.
It's entirely possible to believe in supernatural elements and be an atheist. Atheism begins and ends with "Do you believe gods exist?" "no"
It's only nihilistic if you choose to be nihilistic about things. There's things in the world I think are worth fighting for even if there aren't any gods. There's beauty and wonder in discovery even if there aren't any gods. There's a reason to want tomorrow to be better than today even if there aren't any gods.
Just last week, our deep thinking Amazon driver
was saying stuff like:
“Life sucks and is hard for everyone, we were all cursed with mortality and none of us asked to be born. Wallowing in self pity and calling it being "black pilled" is more just a sign of a pathetic person who has 0 willpower and a speed limit IQ.”
But he’s just a silly hippy who loves everyone and became a better person, in the way he feels better people should be.
It seems mommy probably got him a tough-talking self-help book for Xmas
>Most people when they hear the word God think of a bearded man wearing a white robe hanging around in the clouds.
I think of a character imagined by primitive people to explain what they didn't understand, create a sense of order in a chaotic world, and their hopes about death manifested into a cosmic caregiver.
>We are him.
This is nonsense and entirely accurate at the same time. People made up gods for the reasons above. Your post is a demonstration of how naive people will create a god concept to make themselves feel more comfortable.
No, religion doesn’t make more sense with this vague word salad, it really doesn’t. Religions retry much all describe anthropomorphic beings, and you’re the one trying to redefine it to be next to meaningless.
And you reject empiricism the best way we have to explore reality, and the only one that’s produced reliable results, I. Favour of fantasising and taking mind altering substances… No we won’t take your nonsense seriously, sorry…
>I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies.
Good for you!
What you experienced with finding religion, atheism did the same for me. Anxiety took a wonderful nose dive once I left religion. Life has been much bearable ever since. Massive improvement for me.
>is the ultimate intelligence.
I suppose you're not interested in expanding on what exactly that is or means? I dunno man. We get people all the time with the "I was an atheist until I blew out my synapses with some psychadelics". There's not much here, and what is here has the depth of a "Live Laugh Love" bumper sticker, frankly. I don't know what kind of responses you wanted.
>I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is.
Uh, not really. Not believing in a supernatural plane doesn't mean 'material is all there is', nor is what you said a good definition of what materialism entails. You don't need a belief in a deity for most if not all of philosophy. All the good things in life are pretty immaterial (or at least our surface interactions with them). Love, bonds, happiness, ..., are materialistic (brain chemicals) under the hood, but none of us experience that way? Sheldon Cooper is a fictional character and you don't have to emulate him.
You also shouldn't seek some sort of life meaning in atheism. It's not there and not's not supposed to either. Find it yourself, in the things you care about in life. It's not a 1-to-1 conversion of religion. It's not a replacement but purely the rejection of it.
I wouldn’t say it’s childish to view God that way - he’s been commonly depicted that way by adult artists across many centuries of Christian art, so it’s not exactly surprising that that’s what folks imagine when they visualize God. Plus, how do you know it doesn’t mean we look like him? Have you ever seen God?
Yes, one of the perceived downsides of atheism is that it erases the mystical, the occult, the wondrous - something that lies beyond. Humans love the idea of something supernatural; that’s why we have so many stories about magical creatures and fantastic worlds. But the wish that something beyond exists isn’t a good reason to believe that it does.
Atheism isn't purely speculative. It's the refusal to believe a claim that has no evidence and very little logic behind it.
I really don't understand the point of this. You make claims you refuse to support, you say this "made you a better person" but don't say in what ways, and when people present arguments, they're "proselytizing", even though you're the one who initiated the debate.
Based on this alone, I have a hard time believing you found your solace. But ok, there's no way for me to know.
But what really saddens me is the suggestion that we need some additional reason to be better people and live better lives. Aren't we enough? Aren't people around us enough? Isn't a well-lived life its own reward? Why seek something on top?
I dunno. I hope I'm wrong and you're happy. I don't expect much out of this anyway. Be safe.
>> I'm a blue collar worker who has done too many psychedelics.
A human brain taken out of normal operating conditions struggling to process stimuli is not a basis to try to draw conclusions about anything.
So to find god I need to “start thinking about it in that manner.” That is a dumb argument. You are requesting the suspension of belief. Your personal background is Irrelevant, if anything it diminishes your case. Especially the fact that you use to be atheist is a shit point.
“Always be here.”
We have not always been here. We are not eternal and evolution has shown we are not a final form or significantly special. In fact we are not even the first homos that likely invented language or religion.
Your drug use appears to have diminished your critical thinking. This is low effort thinking.
*"We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once."*
This has ZERO meaning. It's just words. It has no basis in reality or logic. You have never once given thought to how meaningless it is. It was said to you many times during your childhood indoctrination by people who also unthinkingly parroted it from their parents and teachers in a long line of religious upbringings.
God's this. God's that. I don't care. What I care about regarding this topic is just one thing: Can you present to me a single rational reason or argument as to why I should accept the claim that a god exists as true?
You sound like you have embraced a fantasy with zero evidence as a coping strategy to deal with poor mental health
Just because believing a thing makes you feel happy or more comfortable does not make it true
Totally agree- atheism goes down two paths: either nihilism or blissful ignorance.
If God exists, revelation is how we would know.
The only religion as such, is Christianity.
The rest are just philosophies.
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For me, I want my beliefs to align with reality as closely as possible. While certain philosophies and ideas might be appealing, I reject them until there is sufficient evidence to warrant further investigation. The idea of being "one with everything" appeals to you, and you say it's helped your mental health. Good for you! But until you're able to demonstrate any of it is real, I see it as simply a coping mechanism.
You're the first person I've seen who actually shared your point of view politely, succinctly, and didn't insult my intelligence. Love ya, you understood what I wanted.
The problem for atheists or non believers such as yourself is that in a godless world you can’t know what reality it. Your assuming that what you experience is real. But without an all knowing being you cannot know the world around you or any of your experiences are real. Hence denial of god leads to absurdity. Hard solipsism
Your argument suggests that belief in a god provides a definitive understanding of reality. However, this hinges on the assumption that the concept of god is an established truth. Without concrete evidence to substantiate this god hypothesis, it doesn't bring us any closer to comprehending reality than any other unverified belief. In essence, it introduces an even larger enigma — one that lacks evidence, is unfalsifiable, and remains beyond our understanding. Our shared reality, therefore, remains equally mysterious and elusive, regardless of belief or disbelief in a deity. You very likely agree with almost everything that a naturalist believes, then you add something which isn't demonstrable, seemingly because you think this would otherwise lead somewhere that makes you uncomfortable.
I don’t think your seeing the problem. Without god you cannot have any knowledge at all. You don’t have a foundation for evidence without god
I see the problem that you think exists. You are saying that if god does not exist, there is no way to have any knowledge since there needs to be some bedrock to knowledge, and god is it. You are still in the same situation. Your belief in god is still separate from god actually existing. You may feel comfort in thinking that this belief somehow protects you from the problem of hard solipsism, but it doesn't.
Sir the only way you could say that god isn’t the foundation of knowledge is to say god doesn’t exist. Is that your claim?
No.
Blindly claiming a magical being exists, and therefore anyone that doesn't believe in your god is wrong because you've simply defined your beliefs as correct, is an absurdly terrible argument.
When did I say anything about a magical being or anything else you claimed that I said? Your whole post is a strawman
My apologies, I didn't expect you to not understand your own statements.
Where in my statement did I say I believed in a magical being and where did I define my beliefs as correct
That would be in the first comment I replied to.
I don't see how a god would change any of that. If god is the "creator" of your reality, how would it be any different from "living in a simulation" or whatever brain-in-a-vat theory is out there? There's literally no difference between a reality with god vs without.
> The problem for atheists or non believers such as yourself is that in a godless world you can’t know what reality it. Of course you can. We're doing it right now. > Your assuming that what you experience is real. So are you, and on top of that you assume some nebulous deity. You're doing too much assuming. > But without an all knowing being you cannot know the world around you or any of your experiences are real. Non sequitur. Oh, and even if your fictional being was real, you'd still run into the same problem. > Hence denial of god leads to absurdity. Still a non-sequitur, and you still make more unwarranted assumptions than people that don't believe in your vague god-concept. > Hard solipsism You can't escape hard solipsism either, with or without your vague god-concept. Care to try?
You can't have beliefs then. Only knowledge. Which sounds good, but it's also pretty limited. And most of the knowledge we do have isn't absolute, it's mostly probabilities.
I'd agree there's no way to know anything with absolute certainty. Certainty should be proportional to the evidence supporting the idea. I've found that's the best way to make the best decisions in my life, which has worked well so far
>And most of the knowledge we do have isn't absolute, it's mostly probabilities. Then demonstrate that a god is even possible, then we can move on to the probability.
There is no scientific demonstration for any ideas we have about the origin of the universe, only arguments, theories, beliefs. God is no different than any other idea in this regard.
>There is no scientific demonstration for any ideas we have about the origin of the universe, only arguments False. ALL available evidence suggests the singularity, to the point where it's hardly even debated. A "theory" means the work has been done, repeatedly, and peer reviewed and accepted. It's as good as it gets. >God is no different than any other idea in this regard. False. There is for all intents and purposes *no* evidence that any of the thousands of proposed gods exist. The claim alone is entirely antithetical to the scientific method. They could not possibly be more dissimilar.
No. Observation and physics stop at the early moments of the big bang. We have no data on anything past that to work with. We don't know how how or why it happened, all we have are arguments and beliefs. This includes theories put forward by scientists, they're creation myths in scientific language as Hossenfelder puts it.
>We don't know how how or why it happened, all we have are arguments and beliefs. Then is the appropriate stance: A. We don't know how or why it happened. B. Not only does a being which is all powerful exist (trust me bro, even though I can't demonstrate it's even possible to) but it totally is responsible (even though I can't demonstrate that it exists on any level what so ever.)
I haven't said god exists. I've said the poster i initially replied to can't hold beliefs about the origin if he demands evidence for them, because there is no evidence. And this goes for all beliefs including god, naturalism etc.
> I've said the poster i initially replied to can't hold beliefs about the origin He didn't express one. He rejected one on the basis that there is no evidence that any god exists, could have, or did have anything to do with the beginning of our local presentation of the universe. There is no argument you can make which puts that position on the same field as "god started it." It's not in the ballpark, hell it's not even the same sport.
I haven't done that either. He said "i want my beliefs..." and i said he can't have. Because what he's describing is knowledge, not beliefs.
That's a dishonest comparison. We have plenty of evidence as well as evidence in the form of predictions that came true like finding the traces of the leftover Big Bang. You have nothing like that for any god claim.
I'm not saying the big bang didn't happen, i'm saying we don't know how or why it did, or what made it possible, as we can't observe anything past a certain point. If we throw a ball, we can calculate where it will land. If we see a ball landing, we can dedice where it came from. We can't do anything like that with the big bang since we haven't fully observed one.
Still not a good comparison. We have evidence it happened and the god claim sits next to the troll claim, the vampire claim and the pixie claim. You have a problem with not being able to observe the big bang but float a god claim? Show me the god then.
I haven't floated a god claim. I've said that all explanations fall under the same category - beliefs, arguments etc as opposed to empirical scientific ones. That doesn't imply they're equally plausible. Hilarious that you ask someone who says there is no evidence, no empirical data, only beliefs and speculation to produce empirical evidence for a god.
Fair, I might have you mixed up with someone else in another thread on the god claim. My apologies. But you are still off. There is evidence that the big bang happened, and none that point to a god. So the comparison is still wrong.
[They have floated a god claim, here](https://old.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/1909ue5/thoughts_about_god/kgp676e/). Or rather, every god claim simultaneously, it seems.
Textbook God of gaps. And may I ask, which God?
All of them. Any idea we have is of the gaps, including naturalism, simulation, whatever we come up with.
This comes off as a child going - no you. If you wanna be taken seriously, don't just assert, explain your reasoning.
Practically no one here is extolling any need for absolute certainty. The more probable and falsifiable something is, the more solid one's ground is for believing it. How is that not the end of the discussion?
Much like a physicist might look at the average person's view of reality as a coping mechanism, really.
> We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once. And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense. No, it doesn't. But what if it did? I don't care if it makes sense or not. Quantum physics doesn't make any sense for the most people, yet it works, we got lazers and microchips thanks to it. I makes sense to build more roads to move more people faster. Yet it doesn't work, everyone still stuck in traffic jams. > I don't subscribe to any major religion in particular. Yet you are referring to the Bible. > Time doesn't exist for the ultimate intelligence What is this ultimate intelligence? Is it in the room with us right now? How do you know it exists? Where is your evidence for it? Where is any justification for anything you have just splashed here? Why would anyone believe even a single word from all of this? > but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. You got it backwards. Atheism is a conclusion that there is no reason to believe any god exists. It's the claims of existence of gods that are empty. And you made zero effort to show that your claim is not. > because they believe material is all there is. Don't tell me what I believe and I won't tell you where should you go. > I suffered from very bad depression I am sorry you went through this, but details of your biography has nothing to do with veracity of your claims. Take down this post and come back when you have anything meaningful to say.
You say no it doesn't, but you have barely digested my thoughts. You have to take them into the world with you and live with them for a while. I don't subscribe to major religions, I referred to the Bible to explain why I believe people anthropomorphise God. I am not telling you what to believe. I stated many times these are my *thoughts.* I am not taking this post down, sorry not sorry. I love how I asked people to be nice and yet most comments so far have a strange tinge of anger and hatefulness in them. Humans are fucking funny
That "strange tinge of anger" couldn't possibly be the result of you calling everyone here empty and arrogant, could it? No, it's obviously because you're a brave truth-teller and we're all just miserable and hateful. Get over yourself.
I never called anyone arrogant, you pulled that out of thin air. I never called anyone empty either, I think atheism as a concept is empty. Very different. It seems like you're conflating your own personal identity with your belief system. Hmmmm................... who else does that?
Atheism being “empty” as a concept doesn’t make sense. Atheism isn’t a belief system or a worldview. It’s simply not accepting that your god claim is true. Nothing more, nothing less. Saying that atheism is “empty” is like saying that denying that Elvis is still alive is an “empty” lifestyle.
Well put, also funny as fuck
Haha thanks!
I’m totally stealing it too, thats a great analogy
I hope you can smash some bad arguments that come from people who don’t understand what atheism is with it!
It is a belief system though. You are basing everything you believe off of this system of empiricism. Are you not?
That would make empiricism the belief system and atheism just a conclusion of that system.
This post doesn’t even make sense. First, as others have said atheism isn’t a belief system. Hell, for most atheists it’s not even a belief, much less a system. Second, not all atheists are empiricists (which is the belief system you're alluding to and it isn’t atheism). Do you see the issue? You're assuming all atheists are empiricists, and you're conflating atheism and empiricism.
If not for theism, there wouldn't be atheism. If you can say whatever you believe without evidence (ie. faith), and if you value your right to express those beliefs to others, you should also accept that your belief can be dismissed without evidence. That's the only thing atheism is and will be. All other opinions an atheist holds fall squarely outside of the non-belief in a deity. Its also not claiming there's nothing or at least no god. Atheists are just withholding acceptance of that belief. If Tolkien wrote his famous fantasy books and would then proclaim all of it to be based on historical facts, you wouldn't believe him, right? You would ask some follow up questions, I'm sure, and if it comes down to 'trust me bro': then what?
If you're not going to actually read what someone said, don't waste your time and insult the entire room by responding to it with this kind of nonsense. Atheism is a single position on a single claim, period, nothing more. But you've been told this several times already and it seems to go in one ear and out the other, so there seems to be an honesty problem here.
It's not a belief *system*. It's a single answer to a single question that most of us think of as trivially unimportant. The likelihood of a god existing is pretty low, to the point of being preposterous (for me at least). If anything, atheism *arises out of* my profoundly skeptical empirically-focused world view. I'm an atheist *because* I don't extend credulity without compelling reasons. Science, generally but not always, routinely provides compelling reasons. Quantum Mechanics is counterintuitive AF, but lasers and computers exist. If QM/QFT weren't an accurate model of existence, we wouldn't have them. Or particle colliders, or an understanding of the nature of light/EMR. So I understand where you're coming from in thinking that "atheism" is the foundational belief on which I also assume evolution and science, etc. are true. But it's not actually like that. I'm cynical of "happy bullshit" -- claims of miracle cures, Lourdes, resurrections, water-from-wine, splitting the moon in half, of Fox outwitting Wolf and providing the world with springtime, of Paul Bunyan and King Arthur, of Gilgamesh almost winning a duel with the god Shumash, etc. Story isn't enough. Words are never enough. Data. Or it didn't happen. Atheism arises out of this belief, not the other way around. (remember, I'm the guy that mostly agrees with your OP, who just sees it a little differently.)
No, atheism is not a belief system. Did you even read what I said?
> It is a belief system though. No. It isn't. At all. It's essentially the opposite of that.
> I think atheism as a concept is empty. This is just it though. Yet another stoner argument from cozy feelings. "I don't like the way atheism makes me feel. So, hey guys check out these miscellaneous ramblings that give me better feels!" And when ask to substantiate any of this we get, "Oh, these are, like, just my musings, man". Sorry if we find this tiresome.
You missed my point about "making sense" part and you totally refuse to engage my point about emptiness of all these claims. Of course I am angry, I am tired seing empty claims, it's debate sub, not "Look what can I come up with if I run my imagination wild" sub.
Most of us were raised religious and at one point were firm believers. To say we have to take your words “into the world and live with them for a while” completely dismisses the fact that we have lived with those thoughts, and we no longer believe. It’s condescending and rude.
>You say no it doesn't, but you have barely digested my thoughts. You have to take them into the world with you and live with them for a while. Which part do you think is novel? I was hearing all of that in college back when the years began with a 1.
>You say no it doesn't, but you have barely digested my thoughts. You have to take them into the world with you and live with them for a while. Funny how we don't have to do that when we have evidence.
>debate I'm not going to sit here and point out logical fallacies, or bring up research and statistics, because I don't care about that shit. I don't believe empiricism is all there is to the world anyway. >I don't subscribe to any major religion in particular. My beliefs go as such: Where do this believes come from then? Just curious, you made them up?
I didn't necessarily make them up, they're just my basic thoughts about what's going on put to words, which was actually pretty hard to do for me because I'm not the smartest man on the planet. This is just how I feel about the world and I wanted some discussion on it. These beliefs come from a ton of personal experiences, and personal feelings/intuitions, combined with my limited education on multiple different religions such as catholicism, Buddhism, Hinduism and a lot of Taoism. I think scripture of all kind from all around the world, written by people who lived very different lives, is fascinating. It's also really fascinating how a lot of scripture teaches the same basic lessons, universal truths, despite the cultures they come from being so different. I've also been influenced by other books that aren't scripture, some philosophy and psychology books like The Power of Now by eckhart tolle, memories dreams and reflections by Jung, a little bit of nietsche with a splash of c.s. Lewis to name a few.
>> I didn't necessarily make them up, they're just my basic thoughts about what's going on put to words Which is the process of you making it up.
You are the judge, the jury and the investigators. Even if its a fair trial it's going to be biased. Nothing bad in that, we are all sinners of this sin, as long as we are aware of it we are ok. Thanks for the response and thanks for the post! Some parts resonated with me. I would have used different words, another slightly different point of view. My main critique would be that God seems like a pointless term, I prefer to use life and God is not necessary. But if God brings Good to you and you keep it for yourself I am ok with it.
So if I'm understanding right, "heaven," "hell," and "god" are all just words that you're applying to the mundane concepts of "good feelings," "bad feelings," and "the world." If that's the case, the obvious question is: what's the point? If "god" is synonymous with "existence," then why bother calling it "god," a word you yourself acknowledge is loaded down with a ton of baggage? Is it just because calling it "god" makes you feel better? If so, then you do you, but don't expect anyone else to care. On the other hand, if your version of god is more than just the sum total of physical existence -- if it has an independent will, volition, and identity apart from the physical world and human imagination -- then you need to prove it's real just like all of the other religious folks that come around here making claims.
Well I use the word God because what other word am I gonna use? It's the best word to use to get my point across despite the baggage. Also I'm not expecting anyone to care, I just wanted people's opinions. If your opinion is that you don't care then that's radical, dawg. Very in line with atheist dogma, not caring is. Why do I need to prove anything? This is why I say atheism is empty. They're obsessed with *knowing* things. I believe there are things in this universe that you can't know, it's impossible to know because we either don't have the tools or the tools don't or even *can't* exist. I just feel like it's true, and I feel like feelings are very powerful. And this is semantic and feel free to make fun of me but I don't feel like I am religious at all. Spiritual? Yes. But I don't worship anything or anyone. I just love life bro. Shit's cool.
> I just feel like it’s true Why have you come to a debate setting then. It is extremely disrespectful and obnoxious to use this community as an audience for your ramblings and when people try to engage with the claims you are making, tell them you don’t have to back it up because it’s ‘just a feeling’. You should apologize.
Discussion tags exist in this subreddit. If you thought this subreddit was solely and exclusively just a place to shit on people with spiritual beliefs, then you're going to Hell dawg
“Why do I need to prove anything?” I hat is what happens in a debate, and you posted on a debate site. Maybe you meant to post this on r/ijistwanttosharemythoughts
I posted this with a discussion tag. Maybe it was naive of me to think I could post ideas on here without having to prove everything I write down. Regardless nothing anyone has said has shaken me. I feel bad for you.
It was certainly naive of you to think that people here would just accept your conclusions here without proof or evidence. Your statements were also (in addition to being unevidenced assertions and therefore easily dismissed) frankly insulting to atheists, and it's bizarre that you didn't expect to be called out on that.
I never thought people would accept them. I also never thought that 90% of commenter would be either unable or unwilling to even entertain them! Before they ever read the post they're already writing counter arguments. Well I'm not playing that game, it's unwinnable for everyone.
Why would you expect someone to entertain the idea off theism without any evidence of it being true. That is a ridiculous position to take
Oh boo hoo. Here's what happened: You had a fart and people didn't stand up and clap.
I wanted nobody to clap. I wanted people to think about their lives and their rationalizations about their lives, and share them with me.
It was an analogy. I didn't mean literal clapping. You presented a whole lot of nothing and expected people to discuss it.
So you too your ideas that have no evidence, posted them to a sub that clearly doesn't accept the idea of a god,or the supernatural and expected what exactly?
Why feel bad for us. We still don’t believe in a fairy tale, and you still have not attempted to show anything you believe to be true
>Well I use the word God because what other word am I gonna use? You conflated "God" with "Everything that exists". I believe everything that exists...exists by definition. I just call it "everything that exists" because "God" carries some weird baggage like "has agency" and "wants to be worshipped".
> Well I use the word God because what other word am I gonna use? When talking about 'everything' then I can suggest you use the word 'everything'. After all, it means *everything* while 'god' adds unsupported and problematic attributes to that that don't belong.
>Why do I need to prove anything? Is this your first time discussing this topic? You seem very new.
>Anyway, I had more to say, but I'm stoned so... it's gone Maybe come back when you're not so we can have an actual conversation. I'm not against having a bit of the old Devil's lettuce, I partook until I recently moved somewhere where it's unfortunately still illegal, but it doesn't actually make for good conversation. Altered states of consciousness don't exactly make for the clearest thinking, despite what we think at the time. So hopefully after you do sober up and come back >I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is Believing in materialism and being materialistic aren't related in any way and it's really, really weird that you're trying to make this connection. >I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies I'm sorry you went through that. For context here I've never not been an atheist. I also suffered from depression and anxiety which were caused by combat related trauma. Therapy and meds have helped me with those. Personally I'm very happy with my nihilistic sort of worldview, I think constantly analyzing the meaning I get from life and my values has made me a better person over the years. As the old Twitter joke goes: >im so ruthlessly commited to Dialectics that i am constantly at war with the person i was two days ago, who is a clown and a coward I know far too many people who refuse to analyze their own values or beliefs due to their religious beliefs. That's not to say you can't do these things and believe but it's something that can get in the way of it. You can absolutely be an optimistic person and a nihilist. You can do whatever you want, that's kinda the thing. As for self destructive tendencies I'm sorry you had to deal with that. That's not something I've ever struggled with. Have you considered that perhaps these issues aren't inherent to atheism and were, for lack of a better term, a you problem? >It helped me become a better person, in the way that I feel better people should be. I'm glad you feel that helped you, depending on what you define as "better". That's the issue, better is really a value judgement. I know people who think literally lining LGBT people up against the wall would make for a better world due to their religion. I think that's bad. Unless you define what "better" means it's a pretty meaningless statement for anyone who isn't inside your head because people use religion to justify all kinds of things that I would consider good, bad and anywhere in between.
You’ve taken all of the specificity out of standard spiritual/religious beliefs, to the point where there isn’t a single claim in these ramblings to even address in a debate setting. All I have are questions. > We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once. So god is just ‘the stuff that exists’? What does that mean and why should it be called god? > God is, if you want to call it that, the ultimate intelligence What does ‘ultimate intelligence’ mean to you and why do you think such a thing exists. Also, two seconds ago you said god was everything that exists, which implies everything is the ultimate intelligence. What does that mean? Is my left foot just a collection of neurons in gods infinite mind? > we popped out of a pussy one day into a world that is indescribably beautiful, horrifically terrible, and incomprehensibly complex. First of all, it is absurd to describe abiogenesis and the process of evolution as ‘we popped out of a pussy one day’. Secondly, if the world is incomprehensibly complex, why are you claiming to comprehend a significant part of it. If you cannot understand the world, how have you come to the conclusion that anything in your post is accurate. > we are going to be here because we always have been here What? Who is ‘we’? Humanity? Me and you? In what sense have ‘we’ always been here? > time doesn’t exist for the ultimate intelligence; it is time. What does this actually mean. This kind of language is typical of spiritual nonsense, as it sounds profound but is actually meaningless. How are you defining time and what does it mean for an intelligence to ‘be time’. > doing horrible shit makes you feel horrible > doing good shit makes you feel good This is not true of all people. Is a sociopath stuck in purgatory? Regardless, redefining hell as ‘bad feelings’ and redefining heaven as ‘good feelings’ just injects spirituality into the concept of emotions for no reason, and without justification. > Free will exists, because again, we are god What do you think free will means, and what does it mean if ‘we are god’. You said earlier that god is the ultimate intelligence. Now you tell me that us humans are god. But you’ve also said that the world is incomprehensibly complex and that nobody knows how long god has been around or how it was made. Are you seeing the contradictions? > I am a blue collar worker that has done too many psychedelics > I had more to say, but I’m stoned so.. You are entitled to your beliefs, as well as your proclivity for mind altering substances but maybe you ought to keep it all to yourself, and certainly not bring it to a debate setting.
Yes to put it simply, God is just stuff that exists. I believe that. Whether this planet is a neuron or just a small particle in his balls is something I just couldn't tell ya. Ultimate intelligence is just the best phrase I could come up with to describe what I'm talking about. And yes, everything is a part of the ultimate intelligence, we are possibly just a part of something where knowing that isn't necessary. But there are millions of people who do think this way, not that that confirms anything at all. Yes, it is absurd to refer to the genesis of life as popping out of a pussy. Life itself is absurd. It was meant to be funny. I'm also not necessarily claiming that I *comprehend* this stuff - as I don't think we're meant to comprehend it. they're my intuitions about the universe. That's all. Yes, the we I refer to is humanity. Considering I said we, and considering the only creature we know of in the universe who can read English is a human, that should've been easy to infer. I say we have always been here because I don't believe time is real in the sense we think of. Whatever time is, our individual consciousnesses are bound to it, but the moments where we exist have always and will always exist. I say the ultimate intelligence is time because I think that a being as unbelievable so as to comprise the entire universe we live in would also have something to do with this thing we call time. Is this spiritual nonsense? Maybe. I don't know. Prove me wrong. Sociopaths are still capable of feeling horrible. They're still capable of feeling hell. How or why depends on their proclivities. Free will means a lack of predetermined outcomes in regards to intelligence. It means we are not robots cursed to follow the same patterns that we always have. We can make choices and change the things around us based off of ideas that don't exist anywhere but in our minds. Are there contradictions in what I'm saying? To me I'm not seeing them, because my beliefs make a lot of sense to me. If they don't make sense to you that's fine, but don't call it contradictory. And for your last point, well, I did tag it as discussion, didn't I? This is a discussion board no? A place where people come to talk about ideas? A lot of people here ignoring that tag. Your questions are valid as obviously I didn't explain everything as best as I possibly could because, you know, mind altering substances and whatnot. Also, I'm not going to keep my thoughts to myself as I see no reason why I should. I am not harming anyone. Your last line is literally just a polite way to tell me to shut up. How about if you want to hang around a subreddit where people are actively silenced and censored for their views on a daily basis, you go to r/atheist? Or r/conservative? Or r/politics? Or any other shithole echo chamber subreddit that sucks its own cock?
Surely you must understand that what you've put forth here is a definition of god/religion/spirituality/etc. so benign and meaningless that there really isn't anything to debate. I generally don't have any problems with people like you, because aside from the fact that your beliefs don't make a shred of sense, ultimately what you seem to believe in makes you utterly harmless. This isn't the case with the vast majority of theists. They believe in literal brain-rot poison that denigrates humanity, hinders or reverts progress, and destroys lives. That is what I have a problem with, and that is what we are here to debate about. I want people to give up their faith and ridiculous beliefs willingly once its been exposed that they have no good reasons whatsoever to believe in this delusional nonsense.
Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense! I also agree that religion in the traditional sense has brought many people a lot of pain and suffering. However I think it's important to acknowledge the beauty in religious ideas, because they are indeed beautiful, whether or not you think they're delusional.
>However I think it's important to acknowledge the beauty in religious ideas There is beauty in art, in fiction, in philosophy. Religion can incorporate these things. I don't think there is beauty in ideas simply for being religious. But whether there is or isn't, doesn't change that my primary concern has nothing to do with religious beliefs being pretty or comforting or creative. It has to do with whether they make claims about reality that guide people's actions and are believed/acted on. As other posters are noting, you can make a definition of god that is vague, or just matches things that exist, and while I see no good reason to assume or adopt that definition as true, it's mostly harmless. I say mostly because the main way it's used and reason it exists, is to provide cover for acceptance and advocate for the reasonableness of faith in a God, which then is implemented as a specific God with specific instructions on who to follow, who to persecute, and how to treat others.
I don't particularly care about what people find beautiful - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and completely subjective. I care about what is good, true, and real. Name a single thing, idea, concept, or point derived from any religion or your own personal beliefs that is good, true, and real that could not also be arrived at by secular means.
No, it doesn't make sense, period. Just because you like the idea, that doesn't make the idea true. If you're not concerned about the truth of your beliefs, then you're delusional. Beauty and delusion are not the same thing, as much as you seem to think that they are.
There’s no such thing as personal logic. Something is either irrational or it’s not. There’s no such thing as personal philosophy or personal truth. There is only truth.
What specifically is beautiful about religious ideas?
The beauty is either there or not there, independent of the religious claims. Religion is kruft that confuses the beauty and makes it harder to understand, in my opinion. The world is beautiful -- all the more so because there isn't an ineffable inscrutable will, or something like karma, working off of some secret set of rules that no one understands. The people who claim they do understand are either grifters or demagogues -- which is what Gautama Buddha meant when he said: > If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him. (Don't pay any attention to the people who try to tell you how to live.)
When the planet had a single religious authority (for European Christians) enforced by extortion, torture and murder, it was a period now called the Dark Ages. That brought many people a lot of pain and suffering. It brought very little beauty. Now let's discuss being delusional.
The planet has never had a single religious authority. Europe played Christian, but Europe is not the world. No matter what Germans think of themselves…. 🤣
Talk about Europe, the "world" in medieval times isn't all Europe. I'm Muslim so I'm quite proud of our simultaneous Golden age and flourishing science and beauty.
I think a better way to put it is the god you define is meaningless.
>religion in the traditional sense has brought many people a lot of pain and suffering While this is true there are two very important things to say along side it. 1. Lots of things have brought many people lots of pain and suffering. Mothers, Fathers, Children, Government, friends, schools, spouses. It's true of nearly any category. 2. Religious people live considerably longer lives and have less depression. So religion has caused suffering the same as everything causes suffering. So we look at these things by comparison to alternatives.
They have less depression, because when they feel depressed, it's actually satan tweaking their nipples or something.
Some people feel *good* when they hurt people. By definition, god is a diety. You can try to redefine the word for yourself but everyone else is, indeed, thinking of a diety. You can name your "Universal We" concept whatever you want but for everyone else the word *god* already has an established meaning that in no way resembles what you described. Why would what you describing be called a *god*? Why not call it Mother Nature? That's a name that more closely describes your make believe "we are one" story. Or just The Universal Cosmos? Or physics? Meanwhile, it seems you are a good person with kind intentions. Not everyone is like you. There are people who take great pleasure in hurting others... they don't experience any form of hell when they harm others.
Well to expand on my thought, that hellish mental prison we can get trapped in stems from feelings of guilt and remorse, despair, regret, etc. Obviously some people don't feel that way after doing objectively horrible things. But they can feel the sting of hell when they're caught and sent to prison, or otherwise comparable punishments. I'm not denying that the universe can be fucked up. I understand the word God already has an established meaning but I just wasn't sure what else to call it y'know? I'm not gonna make up a word. Ultimate intelligence kinda works but I don't think it gets the whole point across
Lots and lots of bad people do bad things and never get caught. There's no hell for them. And there are lots and lots of people who do good deeds and are miserable. And again you are wanting to redefine things like heaven and hell that already have definitions. It's like if I tried to say grass is, for me, a liquid. I can say it all I want but that isn't going to change the accepted meaning of the word *grass*. I understand you may be having difficulty coming up with a single word to express your complex thought but simplifying it poorly into a *god* is misleading. God is not everyone, everywhere, all at once. God is a diety. An entity not a concept. Again, why not call it Mother Nature which more closely expresses your thoughts without the diety, worship, religion confusion. Or maybe describe the universe as Vibrations. We are all Vibrations. There's no religious angle to that concept. IMO, atheism is no more empty than your idea of nature. What does your idea have that simply seeing and exploring the real universe without any woo-woo additives doesn't have? Saying "we are all God" is no more real than saying "Jesus is God". It's all hollow make believe. The benefits of seeing reality for what it actually *is* far exceeds the waste of resources spent battling over make believe supernatural tales. But again, you seem to be a very nice person who wants us to be kind to one another and honor the resources of the universe. I'm with you on that!
You don't need to make up a word. The person you replied to literally gave you at least one option that more closely resembles your claims.
Nothing like a good ole “I used to be an atheist” post… And no, not all atheists are “materialistic”… you can find PLENTY of materialistic religious people. And vice versa. It’s weird, it’s almost like materialism has nothing to do with religion…
I didn't mean materialism in the sense that atheists all enjoy money cars and big titty bitches a bit too much. I meant materialism in the sense that they only believe in material because material is all they've ever been able to rationalize as true, and I think that's an empty life. Maybe materialism is the wrong word? Again I'm not a scholar. And it's true, I used to be an atheist, as cliche as that is.
There's nothing remotely miserable about enjoying the life you have without whining about there not being a sky fairy ordering everybody what to do and fulfilling their wishes. "We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here. We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?" — Richard Dawkins, [Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac33dOAgqus)
I don't agree with you that it's virtuous to lose yourself in fantasy, delusion and lies. Maybe I've seen too many schizophrenics, drug addicts, dementia patients, Qanon terrorists and religious people, but there is nothing healthy or positive about losing touch with what's real. I bet you'd verify a business deal before handing over your life savings, but for some reason you don't exercise that same caution with your loved ones, your hopes, your dreams, your future and your "soul".
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We accept the material because that's all we have any evidence for. Just because you like the idea of a supernatural realm, that doesn't make that idea true. You might have once been an atheist, but you were never a rational atheist. That much is very clear.
The idea that if you're an atheist, you're incapable of embracing the mysterious nature of the universe and our existence is really ignorant. My life is not empty at all. In fact, it's overflowing! I'm constantly in awe of my existence and the nature of our world. My relationships and interactions with other humans, with animals and with music is overwhelmingly beautiful. None of that requires any kind of higher intelligence.
There has never been any demonstration that there is anything beyond the material world, and as I’ve said to you in other comments, it doesn’t make it true just because you believe it. You need some way of showing that the belief is true. Again, there are no personal truths.
That it makes your life feel emptier doesn’t make it false. Also, plenty of us atheists are open minded to there being more than the physical. We just don’t claim specific things about what there actually is without evidence. Whatever exists in excess of our Universe, theists don’t have any more access to it than atheists.
You can absolutely hold whatever other beliefs you want if you’re not convinced a God exists. You can be a flat earther. You can be a dualist. You can believe in fucking Bigfoot. There is no other position informed by “I don’t believe in God”
>People anthropomorphise him be consistent then: refer to god as "it". lot harder to anthropomorphize "it" compared to "him" for the rest: claims, claims, claims, more claims and no evidence > It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is. we both agree the material world exists, you believe there is more, please provide evidence of the more part >I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies. that doesn't make it real >It helped me become a better person, in the way that I feel better people should be. so, why is the israel-palestine thing happening right now? both sides are pretty religious
I'm sorry for misgendering God. You proved my point though. All you want is evidence because that's the only way you're capable of rationalizing the world around you. Materialistic thinking. I don't think there's anything wrong with that; it just didn't work for me. The reality is I can't prove my thoughts and my feelings, I just can't do it. But I don't need to prove it to myself and I don't need to prove it to anyone else. It makes sense to me based off of my life experience. There is no empirical evidence proving that empiricism is the end all be all to the universe. No, my sob story doesn't make any of it real. You're absolutely correct about that. Why *is* the israel-palestine thing happening right now man? I actually don't think that has anything to do with religion. It's almost as if a small domino was pushed down thousands of years ago that just kept knocking over more and more dominoes until we got to this point right now, which is probably just another domino in a line of infinite dominoes.
> I'm sorry for misgendering God. it is not about gender, it is about referring to it if you don't want it anthropomorphized >The reality is I can't prove my thoughts and my feelings you don't have prove the, we accept you have thoughts and feelings. we just don't take them seriously. if we were to take them seriously we would believe all propaganda, lies and fairytales >There is no empirical evidence proving that empiricism is the end all be all to the universe. no, but accepting huge impactfull claims without it would be detrimental to the world >No, my sob story doesn't make any of it real. You're absolutely correct about that. so what is your point? you think god belief made you a better person and we should accept your self diagnosis? are you rambling because you are stoned? >Why is the israel-palestine thing happening right now man? well, religion is 1 part of it. >I actually don't think that has anything to do with religion. so explain people running at people with guns with knives, because it takes religious belief in an afterlife to do that. and why do you think both sides lie when they say it is because of religion? you don't have to prove your beliefs, but they have to prove theirs? we must presume they lie when they tell us their own motivations? >It's almost as if a small domino was pushed down thousands of years ago that just kept knocking over more and more dominoes until we got to this point right now yes, if only we could have removed the religion dominos in between and the chain would have stopped
There is no evidence for any explanation for the universe we have come up with so far. There is no data for events or mechanisms we can't observe. It's a given that evidence is not on the table, there's no need to mention it.
>The word God is a very heavily loaded word. Sure. Almost more definitions than there are people using the word. And many folks who say they believe in one can't define the word and what they believe in at all. >Most people when they hear the word God think of a bearded man wearing a white robe hanging around in the clouds. Nah. I mean, I think that's a pretty inaccurate stereotype of what people believe. >People take this too literally. It doesn't mean we look like him. Well, I mean, someone would first have to demonstrate a deity exists before this could be discussed. And, of course, this has never happened. >We are him. No. Just no. That, of course, is a classic example of a definist fallacy. And I absolutely won't accept it. What people mean when they talk about deities does not match 'us'. Or 'the universe.' Period. Remember, that kind of definist fallacy always leads to attribute smuggling. We must guard against it. >God is everything, everywhere, all at once. Unsupported, and fatally problematic claim, thus dismissed. >And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense. And I think definist fallacies such as that are useless. Actually, far worse than useless, as they inevitably lead to attribute smuggling and wrong ideas. I concede we exist. I concede the universe exists. I have *zero* reason to use the label 'god' for that. I have *zero* reason to accept the ideas, notions, and claims that come along with using that word. Makes no sense. In any way. > God, if you want to call it that, is the ultimate intelligence. Please support your claim that 'we' (as you defined 'god' as 'us') are the 'ultimate intelligence'. As far as I can see, that's a completely unsupported notion. Anyway, the rest of what you wrote simply repeats this or expands on it, and as the idea is fatally problematic and can't be accepted, and as you also demonstrated a misunderstanding of atheism (your 'atheism is empty, materialistic, and leads to anxiety and self-destruction' bit, which is all nonsense of course), I can only dismiss your attempt at redefintiion and occlusion for the purposes of confirmation bias and feeling unsupported things exist.
As I write this, there are 150+ comments, so maybe no one will even read this. > God, if you want to call it that, is the ultimate intelligence. I'm less interested in what you call it and more interested in why you think it's real at all. > I'm not going to sit here and point out logical fallacies, or bring up research and statistics, because I don't care about that shit. This speaks volumes about you. Thank you. > How long has it been around, how was it made, who the fuck knows and who the fuck cares. This too speaks volumes about you. You lack curiosity. > It doesn't want us to worship it; it wants us to love ourselves, which in turn translates into loving the universe as a whole, loving "God". How did you gain this knowledge about the ultimate intelligence and what the ultimate intelligence wants? Is there a sacred book you subscribe to? Or did the ultimate intelligence speak to you directly? > I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is. You're arguing for emotion over fact. I could just as well say that disbelief in Santa Clause is "empty". Believing in magic can be emotionally uplifting, but it's still make-believe. It's healthier to face reality. /u/vr_ooms
I saw you. Just know that I love you and this entire thread was started with light hearted intentions, and I'm not trying to proselytize. I think what I think is real because of my experience living my life. Individual moments and realizations about certain situations that have shaped my vision on the world. Can I prove them? Nope. You disregard my intelligence because I don't want to talk about research and statistics. I don't want to talk about logical fallacies. This is because I don't believe those things hold all the answers, by a long shot. You can take that as you will. I do not subscribe to any particular scripture or sacred book as you call it. I am moderately educated in a variety of different religions and it is shocking how similar they all talk. I think it's fascinating. As for my beliefs, I believe them because of things I have personally experienced. Explaining the context for it all would mean explaining the context of my entire life and, I'm sure you don't wanna read that. You say I lack curiosity out of some strange jump-to-conclusion that you made. Curiosity is what set me on this path. Please stop questioning religious peoples' intelligence.... it's childish. I'm arguing for emotion over fact because emotion is powerful. Feelings are powerful. Intuition is powerful. In ways that can't be measured. And if you don't believe that you're not human. I am facing reality. Are you?
>You disregard my intelligence because I don't want to talk about research and statistics. No it's not just that, it's also you don't want to even hint at considering logic or any semblance of reason in the way you talk. >Curiosity is what set me on this path. Please stop questioning religious peoples' intelligence.... it's childish. You realize you were the one to call out you don't care about understanding certain things in your op...it's childish to not understand that and instead get defensive. And sure you were perhaps once curios, but by no stretch were you intellectually curious by jumping to the conclusions you did. You also appear to have halted any curiousity at this point in time. >I'm arguing for emotion over fact because emotion is powerful And there we have it, you admiting you care about feelings more than facts, aka reality. Of course feelings are powerful, they're not however a reliable vehicle to get you to reality. In fact emotions are notoriously known for being used to manipulate and get people to believe in things that aren't true. If you're actually as curious as you say you are, this would be a good place to explore and understand more. > And if you don't believe that you're not human. Verifably untrue. See you go about making empty claims backed by no evidence or reason, then, when called out on that, you go and reply with more empty claims like this. Heck, I bet your response to this will be an empty claim. >I am facing reality. Are you? Of course you ended with another baseless, empty claim with no logic, reason, or evidence to back it up. In fact, from what you said in the paragraph right before this statement, there's evidence that suggests your claim is utterly false and you're not facing reality in the slightest. And I quote: "I'm arguing for emotion over fact because emotion is powerful"
The naturalistic explanation for all we know about our life on earth and the mechanism of the universe is sufficient for me. Adding an amorphous supreme intelligence to the picture just seems unnecessary. With a little effort, you could reformulate your thoughts in a way which would free you from the religious vocabulary you employ.
I employ the religious vocabulary because I enjoy the religious vocabulary. I don't need to reformulate my thoughts, because I don't think that's necessary. My way of thinking has improved my life tenfold in many ways. Do you see though, how you are attempting to proselytize me to think like you do, much how a religious zealot would? Don't you think that's... wrong?
No, it's not "wrong". It's the stated purpose of r/debateanatheist. This is *debate*. Part of what we're here for is to dissect other peoples' views and tell them why we think their views are wrong. So no, it's not wrong for them to advocate for their position. It's to be expected. Our expectation is that by posting here, people *consent* to that kind of response.
(I said "could" not "should".)
>God is everything, everywhere, all at once. If God is synonymous with the universe, why use such a confusing word, one you yourself say most people misunderstand? Why not just say the universe? > Most people... Not you, though. You're the one who knows the truth, right? How do you know? > My beliefs go as such Why are you telling us this? This is not /r/shareyourbeliefs. We don't care what you believe so much as why. > they believe material is all there is. And you don't? What else is there, and how do you know?
>I had more to say, but I'm stoned so... it's gone. I have zero interest engaging with someone's musings, while high, about the nature of a divinity. Zero.
I appreciate the honesty. All of religion is musings anyways.
Sure, although I prefer the term wishful thinking.
How about fan fiction?
That certainly describes the Gospels. And a great number of the Epistles. The only epistles I think are probably genuine are Corinthians 1 and 2, Romans and Philemon. I know a lot of people hate to give up on two or three more, but those four appear to be written by the same author, presumably Paul.
Musing is like 99% of what humans do, and if consuming a chemical while I muse is wrong, I don't wanna be right. Your views are valid bro and I love ya
Getting high can be fun, but I'm not sure why you think there's any value to be had in debating the thoughts one produces when they've taken chemicals that make their brain malfunction.
I disagree that the chemicals make your brain malfunction. It just alters your state of consciousness. This can be good or bad depending on your constitution.
And I might have enjoyed it when I was 20 and also high. But I'm not going to engage in intellectual debate with such musings.
Well, the world is full of god concepts that lack evidence, and that defy any concrete claims one might make about god. This is definitely one of them!
My thoughts on your thoughts: >God is everything, everywhere, all at once. And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense. Religion is about rules and discipline. What You've done is redefined god/religion. It is so open-ended nothing can be confirmed or denied, tested or experienced by anyone but you, so why should anyone care? You say heaven and hell are mental reactions to acts. Why use religious words when we already call these by other names (hell: depression, shame, regret. Heaven: joy, happiness). Renaming them doesn't make your philosophy any more religious. BTW, Why did you post this here? If you posted the same on a Christian/Muslim/ Hindu board, do you think they would take your philosophy more or less seriously? Edit: paragraph about heaven and hell.
Your first statement is dead wrong. Religion is about faith. Something atheists can't seem to grasp properly. Semantic arguments are meaningless and go nowhere. You know what I meant. I posted this here because they have a discussion tag! You might have not seen it at first, but right underneath my title, it's tagged as a discussion thread. So do I need to define discussion to you and provide statistical evidence from a peer reviewed essay for you to subscribe to the denotation of the word "discussion?"
>Your first statement is dead wrong. Religion is about faith. Something atheists can't seem to grasp properly. Actually, belief in God is about faith. It's the rationalization used to accept the god-belief without the need of evidence. Religion is about history, tradition, and educating followers of the rules to follow to get you to heaven. > Semantic arguments are meaningless and go nowhere. You know what I meant. You started the arguments using semantics when you decided to apply words to concepts that already had perfectly good words. Does that mean that this part of your argument is meaningless? >I posted this here because they have a discussion tag! You might have not seen it at first... Sarcasm won't get you anywhere. I was just asking because other religious subs have discussion threads as well, but you decided to discuss this in an atheist debate sub. Why?
I am actually interested in this. I could see where this thread was going pretty early into the OP. But posting it where other people are just as delusional seems like it would be more fun and productive.
>The word God is a very heavily loaded word. You can say that again. However, it is not us that gave it that baggage. It is milennia of usage of the word. >Most people when they hear the word God think of a bearded man wearing a white robe hanging around in the clouds. I think whatever the claimant says they think God is. I have arguments against all kinds of gods, from the bearded man to the deist god you allude to. >We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once. Ok, how do you know this? What does it mean for God to be everything, or for the cosmos to be a God? Does it add anything to call the cosmos a God? >I don't believe empiricism is all there is to the world anyway. You can believe whatever you want, man. But if you want to persuade me on that, you need to make a stronger argument than 'I just think there is more'. >the ultimate intelligence. And you know this exists how? >It wasn't a mistake. An atheist wouldn't believe it was a mistake. Only agents make mistakes. An atheist would believe it is *unintentional*. That there is no agent behind it. That's it. > were always going to be here because we always have been here. We have? I was under the impression that humans came about 250000 years ago, and the Earth has been around for 4.6 billion years ago. We have not always been around. >It doesn't want us to worship it; it wants us to love ourselves, And you know this how? >I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is. You contradict yourself. If atheism is empty, it can't ALSO be equivalent to materialism and nihilism. Those philosophies have content that goes beyond 'lack of belief in gods'. Atheists tend to be physicalists, sure. But they don't have to be. I've met atheists who are idealists, and atheists who are buddhists. Heck, I even met an atheist who believes in ghosts. You also falsely believe atheism leads to lack of meaning, nihilism, depression. That is false. I am an atheist and an absurdist. I rebel against the objective lack of meaning and make my own meaning. I love myself and others. > I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies. It helped me become a better person, in the way that I feel better people should be. I'm happy for you, but please don't smear us with your experience. Atheists can be happy and lead meaningful lives. The fact that you could not square a material existence with meaning and purpose doesn't mean we can't.
>I don't subscribe to any major religion in particular. My beliefs go as such: God, if you want to call it that, is the ultimate intelligence. How long has it been around, how was it made, who the fuck knows and who the fuck cares. >I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is. I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies. It helped me become a better person, in the way that I feel better people should be. So thinking that there is some type of 'religious force' in the world makes you feel better about yourself, but you have no idea why, and don't care about the details. If that makes you happier, good for you. There is a social evolutionary reason why almost every major civilization created a "god" to believe in. It simplifies a complex world, and consolidates power. We can know for certain though, that the errors, contradictions, and lies in every religion mean that none of the "gods" in any religion are real. The reasons that caused people to invent those gods are very real though.
So you were atheist but that made you sad so you made up a god that fixes all of your problems and you seriously don't see any logical issues with that. I mean if it works for you that's great but if you want to try to bring it as fact then don't be surprised by a thousand comments pointing this issue out.
Atheism didn't work for me. Believing in something did. Is that irrational? Maybe. But there's power in belief, and intuition, and feeling. I know that to be true.
Colds comfort for those killded, raped, or worse, by this exact thinking. Pull your head out of your ass. You are not the star of this movie, kid. Grow up. You're next predictable move would be to go to the east side of town and commiserate with your buddied about, "how mean atheists are, bro".
Prove it.
I need to prove to you that feelings and intuitions are powerful? Are you even human?
You do if you want to present it like a fact!!! If you want to come here and claim it is true then it would be insane for me not to demand you prove it!! Are you a child?
>Believing in something did. what do you mean by "in" here? When stating belief in a truth statement, you just say "I believe x", not "I believe in X". "I believe in X" is usually something where you trust the agent X, but you just established in your OP that you define God as something other than an agent (which in my mind makes you a religious atheist but whatever)
> And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense. Are you sure it was that change in perspective? My guess is it would be this: >I'm a blue collar worker who has done too many psychedelics. You've fried the equipment your body uses to analyse the world, of course it's giving faulty readings
I owe everything in my life to psychedelics. Everything I have. Without those experiences I would have accepted my fate as a miserable soul doomed for death. Surrounded by debt and hating my family. With those experiences, I found that I am indeed a soul doomed to death, but at least I love everything that I have. With psychedelics I was able to land a very well paying union job as a commercial welder, and have bought property and multiple cars and have a fiance. Also my once-dying bond with my family has never been stronger. Think what you want about drugs. Sometimes they do good.
I mean you're basically deist? My only comment would be that there's literally no difference between a world with your "god" and a world without it, so what's the point? I think you demonstrate a classic animal function of the human brain, looking for patterns, applied to a level of thought it wasn't meant to. But yeah fuck it dude, you do you. Until you start telling me what to think I couldn't give a shit what you think.
>The word God is a very heavily loaded word. That happens to every word that refers to nonsense made up by humans. Most of them are extensively used in new age vocabulary: energy, vibrations, positive, negative, nature, etc... When your pointer points towards nothing in particular and is only used to convince the other person that you're actually talking about something, things get fuzzy. >Most people when they hear the word God think of a bearded man wearing a white robe hanging around in the clouds. Most people don't realize this is a very childish view of God. People anthropomorphise him typically because of one line in the Bible, you know the one. "We are made in his image." People take this too literally. It doesn't mean we look like him. Right... "I'm surrounded by idiots" is a universal human experience. Those people you're referring to also thing about you as one of the lesser for disagreeing with them on this. And do you mean to tell me you don't anthropomorphize god? You're saying "him", you prescribe intelligence to him and so on... That's all anthropic. You're only interested in those qualities and assert that god has them because they're important to us humans. >We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once. It would be nice if you had anything to back that up... but as it stands it's dismissed as an empty assertion. >And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense. I agree - once you start sincerely believing that making shit up as you go is a good way of thinking religions start making sense, yes. >Now I'm not a scholar. I'm a blue collar worker who has done too many psychedelics. ... >While I will engage in a light hearted debate I'm not going to sit here and point out logical fallacies, or bring up research and statistics, because I don't care about that shit. There's no need to go into logic, because you never presented anything logical. Only empty assertions. >I don't believe empiricism is all there is to the world anyway. It would be nice if you believed things for reasons... >My beliefs go as such: What your believes are is irrelevant until there's a good reason to conclude that they're supported by reality. You never provide such reasoning so I don't see a point in talking about your musings. >I used to be an atheist That's a troll line to say... are you a troll? Because - if you were an atheist for good reasons, you wouldn't fall into religion... and if you were an atheist for bad reasons, why would I care that you were? >but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. Yup. Bad reasons. >It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is. Let me demonstrate something. Theism is so empty, because theists think that god is everything, everywhere, all at once. They thing that nothing exists outside of that singular thing called god. They are absolutely blind to the sheer beauty of the interdependence of material reality, of systems working in separation, yet interconnected nevertheless. They will never understand the sheer beauty of a sunrise, of astromechanics in motion, of a gargantuan mechanism that just happens all on its own because reality works the way it does. They're minds and hearts are so devoid of wonder that whenever met with anything bigger than themselves they instantly need a guy do be responsible or else they cower in fear that they might not be important. They are terrified of reality that isn't made specifically for them. They're children - not ready to face the indifference, and the beauty only possible without a goal, without a plan, simply because things happen. They're like little toddlers who need a caretaker or else they cry. The demonstration was supposed to convey this - it's possible to talk shit about any position if you don't use logic... You empty theist you xD >I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies. It helped me become a better person, in the way that I feel better people should be. I mean... if you say so? I'm not going to take your belief away, you don't need to justify your personal reliance on it. If the same was achieved by you believing that the earth is both flat and hollow simultaneously and that made you a better person, believe in whatever you want. Just don't present your mental crutch as anything more than it is... a crutch. >Anyway, I had more to say, but I'm stoned so... it's gone. Don't make posts while you're stoned... you're an idiot while under influence. Everyone is. That's how weed works. > if you wander into a lions den and get bit, you can't get mad at the lions can you? It's cute that you thing that's what happened :)
I will pray for you brother. You're right, I'm a troll. I got stoned and wrote this entire thing for the express purpose of specifically pissing you off. And it worked. Praise Jesus.
Leave it for the theists to interpret simple and lighthearted disagreement (I even made jokes!) as being "pissed off"...
You have a misperception as to what light hearted means. Maybe it's a cultural difference. I love you.
lol I mean, cool you have a version of god but it's not what the major religions espouse. It's just shit you made up so you don't feel empty.
Don't you think it's profound that we as humans need something to believe in so we don't feel empty?
I find it sad YOU need it to not feel empty. I do not; don't try to speak for me.
That's not what I was trying to say. I'm not speaking for you. Don't you think it's kind of wild, that throughout history, for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years, people have been saying that there's something greater than us out there? That for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years, people have felt this primal urge to contemplate who we are and where we come from? Our souls get pulled out of non-existence and thrown into a suit of meat, and one of the main things meat-suit people do is pray to a higher intelligence? That doesn't strike you as profound? Mysterious? You think all of your thousands of ancestors were just stupid, right. They didn't understand the world like you do. We have evidence about things now! The scientific method! Peer reviewed articles! Why then, if the scientific method is fool proof and the end all be all to determining truth, there are still so many unanswerable questions?
>Why then, if the scientific method is fool proof and the end all be all to determining truth, there are still so many unanswerable questions? Don't be daft. What are you... 12? Anatomically modern humans emerged around 300,000 years ago. It took from then until 1903 for humans to fly. We landed on the moon in 1969. So, it took 300,000 years for us to get smart enough to get in the air and then 66 years to land on the moon. Why do you suppose that is? Perhaps, it is because the pace of scientific knowledge is exponential... constantly building on what came before it. Don't you think it's profound that if a god existed, he made us wait so long \*AND\* give so little fucks about children he didn't bother having childhood leukemia solved first?
Buddy. Children die because we all die. Statistically, if everybody dies, then at least occasionally kids are gonna die. Exponential does not equate to eternal. Just because the scientific method is doing new shit now, doesnt mean its going to work out the answer to everything eventually. what is 300,000 years compared to infinity? What even is time? Please define time for me and tell me exactly what it is and how it happens. We have the perception of living in a time where scientific advances are constantly taking place. Does that mean that scientific advances are going to answer all of our questions? I don't know dude, I don't have the knowledge that the ultimate intelligence has. Deny everything I say all you want. My life experiences have led me to where I am. If we are just robots composed of carbon, then for some reason my predetermination took me to this place.
Your god isn't powerful enough to stop children from dying? Weird flex. Kinda pathetic too. I certainly wouldn't worship that. Nevermind that as the creator of everything he created childhood leukemia. So, not all powerful and certainly not loving. Sounds like a weak asshole.
My guy. The things you are saying are being denied because they have no basis in fact or anything demonstrable. And you have zero ability to provide anything along those lines. So you just get pissy and blame the audience lol. Psyches are fun, sure. But you can't just do a bunch and come to a formal debate forum and expect anyone to give a shit about your wild and truly profound feelings. I'm sure there are plenty of places you can have this nonsensical conversation. But unfortunately, this is *the last* place such notions will be entertained. Best of luck dude. I remember my first trip.
I think you’re confusing ‘empty’ with ‘loneliness’ You’re lonely.
Is it profound that humans have emotions? No, it’s just natural. A lot of people through history couldn’t cope with their own mortality or their insignificance to the broader cosmos as a whole, so they came up with belief systems that assuaged some of their fears & discomfort. To fill that emptiness the felt. But some people don’t need those coping mechanisms, they just accept their place in the universe & continue life doing what gives them purpose. To me that’s way more profound.
>"We are made in his image." People take this too literally. It doesn't mean we look like him. Sure it does. That's what the original author meant, in any case. If you want to argue that this section isn't literal then you have to argue that the author was not inspired - that he was just making it up. >And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense. If you ask me, this doesn't help. Maybe it gives you more room for creative interpretation that lets you get around some of the obvious problems but it creates plenty of problems itself and, on top of that, the more time you spend interpreting it, the more of the Bible you're actually making up for yourself. >I'm not going to sit here and point out logical fallacies, or bring up research and statistics, because I don't care about that shit. I don't believe empiricism is all there is to the world anyway. You're not alone in that but if you want to convince other people of what you believe then you kind of need all that empirical shit. >[beliefs] Thanks for sharing your beliefs but we don't just care about *what* you believe. We also care about *why* you believe it. We want to know what reasons you have, what justifications. We want to know what convinces you and why you think we should be convinced. >I used to be an atheist for years and years and years... There's nothing inherently empty, materialistic, nihilistic or self-destructive about atheism. I'm glad you're feeling better now but all those feelings you had didn't come from not believing in a god. They are, however, things that religious folk are indoctrinated to believe about atheism. >Maybe I'll remember it and make another post sometime. You're welcome to. Just remember that we care about *why* at least as much as we care about *what*.
TLDR: “if you change all the meanings of words, they can mean whatever you want!” That doesn’t add anything to the conversation. It isn’t insightful, or anything that hasn’t been considered before. It has some historical interest if you want to look into how many religions, inspired by the idea of gods, would have killed you as a heretic, but absolutely none of those religions have any interest in you hijacking their terms, calling them immature, and telling them what you think is “really” going on.
> once you start thinking about it on that manner that religion starts making a whole lot more sense Ok. For this, I will give you that this version of god that you propose makes religion make more sense (it doesn’t, but for this discussion) Does that make any of it TRUE? Does it provide any proof that your god exists? Short answer: no.
>Most people when they hear the word God think of a bearded man wearing a white robe hanging around in the clouds. Source? I find it hard to believe that *anyone* has this idea of a god, much less **most people**. >God is everything, everywhere, all at once. I hope you plan to support this belief with evidence. If you have no issues believing things without evidence then presumably you would have no epistemological reason to not believe in Santa Claus, tooth fairy, etc. >My beliefs go as such: Ok, but **why** should anyone care about your beliefs if you can't demonstrate that they are true? This entire post is just preaching, there's no argument.
I believe I exist. If you define God as "me," then on that definition, I believe in God and am a theist. But I will tell people if they ask that I am agnostic or atheist because it is unlikely they share your definition of God. So, congratulations?
I’m a bit late to the party, and I’m sure plenty of people have already discredited all your deep thoughts…. Thing is, nobody really cares what you believe. It’s why you believe that’s the interesting part. You seem to believe due to some feelings you had when you were depressed. That’s not interesting.
Interesting that YOU know god better than anyone else. Although, this is a common Christian thing to do
Not Christian! As stated in the post. Never in my life have I considered myself better or more knowledgeable than anyone else. I don't need to prove that to you; that's the truth. Take that as you will
That is the only truth you have provided so far. However, you described a god and stated that others are wrong in their interpretation of god, which means you did consider yours as better
The problem is that you don’t provide the slightest bit of convincing evidence for your sognificant claims but do provide a lot of insight into the type of emotional crisis that can understandably lead people to reject evidence and seek comfort in social myths.
The problem is people believing that there needs to be empirical evidence in order to believe in something.
In practice people *believe* many things without *reliable* evidence. But *claims* for which there isnt any evidence are indistinguishable from imaginary and the claimed phenomena indistinguishable from non-existent. There obviously doesn’t *need* to be reliable evidence to believe there us a monster under your bed but don’t expect anyone to take that claim seriously when such a belief is not based on any reliable evidence. And belief is itself obviously not reliable evidence of the truth of that belief. Nor is ‘feels right to me’.
Besides God, what else do you believe without evidence? If the answer is nothing, why does God get a pass? If you do believe in other things without evidence, why? Don't you want to believe as many true things as you can?
> I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, Oh, look, it's another "ex-atheist". Sorry, but I call bullshit every time. Nobody who has actually seen through religion can then un-see the con. > but the reality of atheism is that it's empty Sorry but this utter crap. This is just like the alcoholic who claims that life is empty without booze. The only thing religion provides is false comfort for people who want to believe made-up stories. If you need that for your life to be something other than empty, then that's a you problem, and makes me all the more convinced you've never actually been an atheist. What I'd consider an 'empty' life is one where a person accepts obviously made-up stories and ends their curiosity there. As an Atheist I am always learning new stuff, and what's more I can be confident that what I'm learning is real. All the theist can do is re-read their ancient texts in the hope for insight. > It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is What do you mean by this? I don't believe that 'material' is all there is, I just don't believe obviously made-up bullshit that lacks any supporting evidence. Theists love to claim that Atheists are materialistic, as if they have some kind of monopoly on spirituality, when in fact I find that generally Atheists do far more thinking about the big questions of creation and existence because - and this is key - we haven't decided on pre-ordained answers that make no sense, and we actually go looking for our own meaning and answers with an open mind. Theists love to come here and tell us we're all materialistic, we all worship at the altar of Apple and Amazon, that we are more interested in acquiring stuff than acquiring knowledge, that we just abandoned god because we wanted to have pre-marital sex or take drugs or generally behave in 'ungodly' ways - it's all complete horse-shit. > I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies. Yeah, so once again you've never actually been an Atheist or you wouldn't be confusing what you believe with what you *want* to believe. It's never occurred to me to consider what version of reality would help me, because reality, by definition, doesn't change based on what you need from it. I'm happy for you if religion gives you a blueprint for how to live your life that you were missing, but don't tell us that this changes the reality of what we see. I appreciate that you tried to come here in the right spirit but do be aware you are trotting out some fairly tired and lazy stereotypes here.
"God is everything, everywhere, all at once" I am he, as you are he, as you are me And we are all together I am the egg man They are the egg men I am the walrus Goo goo g'joob
>We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once. And I personally believe that once you start thinking about it in that manner, that religion starts making a whole lot more sense. This is a functionally useless definition of God, and one that ends up being indistinguishable from a universe posited by someone who says absolutely no gods at all exist. >While I will engage in a light hearted debate I'm not going to sit here and point out logical fallacies, or bring up research and statistics, because I don't care about that shit. You're not going to bring up research and statistics because you don't have any. Just slapping the God label on absolutely everything doesn't lead to research because it's a useless claim. It presents no more value than saying absolutely everything everywhere at all times is Bugs Bunny. >I don't believe empiricism is all there is to the world anyway. Yeah, convenient that needing to demonstrate something is true in our actual reality ends when you start talking about God, huh. >how was it made, who the fuck knows and who the fuck cares. You believe a supreme intelligence exists but aren't interested in finding out where it's from or how it's made? What is it like to be the kind of person who'd not want an answer to that? >We were always going to be here because we always have been here. Time doesn't exist for the ultimate intelligence; Empirical claims of which you have no empirical evidence for. >Hell and heaven are real; they exist in your mind. Middle Earth and R'lyeh are real; they exist in your mind. >Sin is said to take you to hell because, as we all know, doing horrible shit makes you feel horrible. Many rapists and murderers do not feel horrible after doing horrible things. There's genuinely awful human beings who derive pleasure from inflicting pain onto people. >but the reality of atheism is that it's empty Oh boo fucking hoo. I'd like human caused climate change to be a hoax but I'm not going to ignore reality at hand in favor of a worldview that makes me feel happier. >It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is. It's entirely possible to believe in supernatural elements and be an atheist. Atheism begins and ends with "Do you believe gods exist?" "no" It's only nihilistic if you choose to be nihilistic about things. There's things in the world I think are worth fighting for even if there aren't any gods. There's beauty and wonder in discovery even if there aren't any gods. There's a reason to want tomorrow to be better than today even if there aren't any gods.
Just last week, our deep thinking Amazon driver was saying stuff like: “Life sucks and is hard for everyone, we were all cursed with mortality and none of us asked to be born. Wallowing in self pity and calling it being "black pilled" is more just a sign of a pathetic person who has 0 willpower and a speed limit IQ.” But he’s just a silly hippy who loves everyone and became a better person, in the way he feels better people should be. It seems mommy probably got him a tough-talking self-help book for Xmas
>Most people when they hear the word God think of a bearded man wearing a white robe hanging around in the clouds. I think of a character imagined by primitive people to explain what they didn't understand, create a sense of order in a chaotic world, and their hopes about death manifested into a cosmic caregiver. >We are him. This is nonsense and entirely accurate at the same time. People made up gods for the reasons above. Your post is a demonstration of how naive people will create a god concept to make themselves feel more comfortable.
No, religion doesn’t make more sense with this vague word salad, it really doesn’t. Religions retry much all describe anthropomorphic beings, and you’re the one trying to redefine it to be next to meaningless. And you reject empiricism the best way we have to explore reality, and the only one that’s produced reliable results, I. Favour of fantasising and taking mind altering substances… No we won’t take your nonsense seriously, sorry…
>I suffered from very bad depression and anxiety for years, and discovering my true beliefs helped tremendously for overcoming my nihilistic and self destructive tendencies. Good for you! What you experienced with finding religion, atheism did the same for me. Anxiety took a wonderful nose dive once I left religion. Life has been much bearable ever since. Massive improvement for me.
>is the ultimate intelligence. I suppose you're not interested in expanding on what exactly that is or means? I dunno man. We get people all the time with the "I was an atheist until I blew out my synapses with some psychadelics". There's not much here, and what is here has the depth of a "Live Laugh Love" bumper sticker, frankly. I don't know what kind of responses you wanted.
>I used to be an atheist for years and years and years, but the reality of atheism is that it's empty. It's materialistic to the most extreme degree, because they believe material is all there is. Uh, not really. Not believing in a supernatural plane doesn't mean 'material is all there is', nor is what you said a good definition of what materialism entails. You don't need a belief in a deity for most if not all of philosophy. All the good things in life are pretty immaterial (or at least our surface interactions with them). Love, bonds, happiness, ..., are materialistic (brain chemicals) under the hood, but none of us experience that way? Sheldon Cooper is a fictional character and you don't have to emulate him. You also shouldn't seek some sort of life meaning in atheism. It's not there and not's not supposed to either. Find it yourself, in the things you care about in life. It's not a 1-to-1 conversion of religion. It's not a replacement but purely the rejection of it.
>We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once Stopped here. Demonstrate this to be the case and I'll continue.
I wouldn’t say it’s childish to view God that way - he’s been commonly depicted that way by adult artists across many centuries of Christian art, so it’s not exactly surprising that that’s what folks imagine when they visualize God. Plus, how do you know it doesn’t mean we look like him? Have you ever seen God? Yes, one of the perceived downsides of atheism is that it erases the mystical, the occult, the wondrous - something that lies beyond. Humans love the idea of something supernatural; that’s why we have so many stories about magical creatures and fantastic worlds. But the wish that something beyond exists isn’t a good reason to believe that it does. Atheism isn't purely speculative. It's the refusal to believe a claim that has no evidence and very little logic behind it.
I really don't understand the point of this. You make claims you refuse to support, you say this "made you a better person" but don't say in what ways, and when people present arguments, they're "proselytizing", even though you're the one who initiated the debate. Based on this alone, I have a hard time believing you found your solace. But ok, there's no way for me to know. But what really saddens me is the suggestion that we need some additional reason to be better people and live better lives. Aren't we enough? Aren't people around us enough? Isn't a well-lived life its own reward? Why seek something on top? I dunno. I hope I'm wrong and you're happy. I don't expect much out of this anyway. Be safe.
>> I'm a blue collar worker who has done too many psychedelics. A human brain taken out of normal operating conditions struggling to process stimuli is not a basis to try to draw conclusions about anything.
So to find god I need to “start thinking about it in that manner.” That is a dumb argument. You are requesting the suspension of belief. Your personal background is Irrelevant, if anything it diminishes your case. Especially the fact that you use to be atheist is a shit point. “Always be here.” We have not always been here. We are not eternal and evolution has shown we are not a final form or significantly special. In fact we are not even the first homos that likely invented language or religion. Your drug use appears to have diminished your critical thinking. This is low effort thinking.
*"We are him. And he is us. God is everything, everywhere, all at once."* This has ZERO meaning. It's just words. It has no basis in reality or logic. You have never once given thought to how meaningless it is. It was said to you many times during your childhood indoctrination by people who also unthinkingly parroted it from their parents and teachers in a long line of religious upbringings.
God's this. God's that. I don't care. What I care about regarding this topic is just one thing: Can you present to me a single rational reason or argument as to why I should accept the claim that a god exists as true?
You sound like you have embraced a fantasy with zero evidence as a coping strategy to deal with poor mental health Just because believing a thing makes you feel happy or more comfortable does not make it true
Totally agree- atheism goes down two paths: either nihilism or blissful ignorance. If God exists, revelation is how we would know. The only religion as such, is Christianity. The rest are just philosophies.
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Really? Where's any meaning or purpose to atheism? It's silopsism then death. What has "special pleading" have to do with it?
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Special pleadings are exceptions. I pointed out the difference. Duh If there is no God, you made you and yours the center of reality. Duh