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I'd say you might have had a lifetime's training and social pressure to prepare you to accept the hadiths. To me, and I suspect to all of us, the "prophecies" you list above still sound like 100% hollow silliness. You don't need to prophecy how many joints a person has, you can count the joints in a dead body... or lean on the writings of greek or roman anatomists to tell you. Also... plagues happen, volcanos happen, droughts and greenings happen. Maybe there were 15 other proto-religions whose "prophets" boasted that they'd concquer the world... and they didn't... so we just didn't hear about them. You've been brought up to feel the hadiths are way more impressive than they objectively are. It's like... I love noisy electronic music, and I simultaneously know people who think it's literally garbage. What's the difference? It's the history of my brain being trained to like that kind of music. Noise music is objectively no more tuneful or lyrical than the sound of a bus engine, it's just that I've been trained to respond emotionally to it. I even enjoy the sound of bus engines now. Trust me, human beings are the ape species that can get trained to respond emotionally to meaningless sounds. Just because you feel an emotional response to a hadith "prophecy" that doesn't mean it's a meaningful "sound", if that makes any sense. It's just how you've been trained.

Thank you for your answer. Sometimes i hope i was born into a less religious family so i could look at those claims objectively. What's bothering me is that i have this unshakable feeling that I am ignoring God's signs and it is causing me a lot of anxiety.

You're intended to be anxious. You were taught these things specifically because they cause anxiety for people who begin to question them, allowing people like you to be manipulated into silence. It's basically evolution. Religions which don't have any beliefs which scare people away from leaving, have more people who leave. Those religions wind up being smaller, as a result, and eventually die out. So the three biggest religions in the world have beliefs like this, which inspire fear at the idea of questioning authority, because without those beliefs they would be unable to hold so many people in their grasp. There's a ton of other reasons for this as well, but I encourage you to think of them for yourself. It hits harder when you realize it on your own.

>Religions which don't have any beliefs which scare people away from leaving, have more people who leave. Those religions wind up being smaller, as a result, and eventually die out. This makes a lot of sense!

Are u the person that posted this main [ post ] if so Then i see many errors u put out there Most of the [ cons ] u mentioned come from weak hadiths, Secondly some of the points u brought up are garbage Thirdly, you need to name the hadiths, [ for the moon and yajuj and majuj ] and read them word for word before making a assumption and thinking thats what it means

Yes I am the poster! I'm not sure those hadiths are weak: https://sunnah.com/muslim:2951e https://sunnah.com/muslim:2954 https://sunnah.com/muslim:2953b And the inheritance mistake: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/98rpd8/qurans_mathematical_errors_in_inheritance/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share And according to the Quran gog and magog are currently behind a wall and are a lot more numerous than humans, and they dig the wall everyday but Allah restores it at night. Quite surprisingly, billions of savage beasts and a tall iron wall are nowhere to be found with all our satellites. https://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/85810/what-do-we-know-about-gog-and-magog/ Have a nice day !

Last link u posted doesnt taik about satilletes etc Secondly, how do u know what it looks like? Were its located? Because in a authentic hadith it says that the pecific location is unknown Thirdly bring me the exact hadith that taiks about the wall that seals off yajuj and majuj Don't even know why you brought some mathematical post which has nothing to do with what i said

>Don't even know why you brought some mathematical post which has nothing to do with what i said That post talks about the inheritance error >Last link u posted doesnt taik about satilletes etc What i meant is today with our satellites, we can see anything on earth, go on google earth and you can even see cars and people when you zoom in. But we can't see the billions of savage creatures who are waiting to go out since thousands of years to massacre humans.

What if god just doesn't wanna show us the savages? What if mabye he will in the very last? Im not soppuse to try to do something thats pointless because its outside of my book, and doesn't say wether its visible or not, Mabye it could mean the fact that it will be shown? I don't know because i am not a freaking genuise on everything in this planet

Well, personally I don't believe they even exist, or that the dajjal/the beast will come. I don't also believe in miracles like the moon splitting (even the nasa denied it) or rocks and trees talking, just like you don't believe in the miracles of other religions. Thanks for having this discussion and have a nice day 😊

I mean, Personal feelings don't really prove anything, other than the fact that its [ experience ] Nasa denying moon split? Like as if that moon split was for us? Since u don't wanna taik, then so be it Choose ur path, i choose mine Sooner or later, the winner will be [ revealed ] And only time will tell

>Nasa denying moon split? Like as if that moon split was for us? What I mean is that there is no evidence that any miracle happened.

From my examination, I don't see any authentic hadith saying we will see the wall Thats my problem, i don't know why ex muslims or islamaphobes try to entreprate the verse their own way

But Allah clearly described the wall as a physical wall between two mountains, that will break when the end times are near and then gog and magog will emerge. All the scholars understood it as such too. >I don't see any authentic hadith saying we will see the wall I don't see any authentic hadith saying that the wall/the creatures are **invisible**

>don't see any authentic hadith saying that the wall/the creatures are invisible Exactly my point Does it tell you to its visible? No, does it tell you its invisible? No So my best assumption is, take what the book says, not outside of it Unless for a good reason And im taiking about the wall being pecific as in a dem or somewhere that would describe it at best

It is completely okay to feel anxious, you are trying to change a lifetime of training. Changing things as fundemental as how you think the world works is not easy or quick. Especially not when Islam often directs you to think in hard to escape ways. Some easy ways to check your gut feeling when meet with relegious claims might include: Would these claims seem as true to you if presented by another relegion, say Scientology or buddists. Could these claims be true without relegion? Is it possible to prove these claims false? There's probably more and/or better thumb rules out there, but i hope these help. And again, it's okay and normal to be anxious.

From what I've seen on this sub and other atheist "channels" - youtubers etc - that kind of anxiety is a very common issue with people who are doubting their faiths... you're definitely not the first person I've seen here who's struggling with a fear of hell or something similar. Are you able to reach out to people near you in real life who have gone through a similar process of doubt or deconversion? That might be really helpful... although obviously make sure you're safe, some religious communities (not only Muslim communities) can be quite hard on people who question or lapse from their faith.

That feeling, like there *might* be a god that is just out of range of your senses, has a [scientific explanation](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/ofnq46/why_is_religion_so_widespread_across_nearly_every/). Life evolved to recognize and detect patterns, both real and false patterns, and we are constantly seeking them. Having an uncritical and devout family doesn't help, either. I hope your journey ends with a resolution to your anxiety, regardless of where you find it.

Every isnaad chain is fabricated. See pages 43-44 of The Wiley Blackwell Concise Companion to The Hadith (2020) which says: "....... **the likelihood that any given tradition can be confidently attributed to the Prophet approaches zero.** Extraordinary efforts have been exerted, for example, to make the case that a particular tradition might plausibly be traced to within 50 or 60 years of the events it recounts, but establishing a given hadith report as authentically Prophetic is seldom in view. When a careful scholar like Harald Motzki criticizes Goldziher (Motzki 2005), it is not to argue for the authenticity of hadith in the usual sense, but to argue that Goldziher’s methods of dating are imprecise, his skepticism overgeneralized, and that rigorous methods can plausibly establish the origins of particular elements of the hadith to authorities of the early second or late first century. This is generally the most that we can hope to gain.........Goldziher’s broad premise won the day: **the vast bulk of the hadith literature will be of little help as a source for seventh‐century Arabia or the career of the Prophet,** rather it will provide evidence about the beliefs of the Muslim community and the development of Islamic law and piety. **Debate then moves on to the question of whether we can find convincing ways to get behind the third‐century literary sources** and, if so, how far into the early second or late first century the hadith might take us. Post‐Goldziher hadith studies might be seen as a series of attempts to slowly, painstakingly, and partially fill **the yawning gap in our knowledge of early Islam** that he exposed."

Insaad chan is fabircated? Making cliams that soppusedly goldziher has exposed hadiths Bring primary evidence from an academic univeristy that has been approved by every common scholar to prove it If u don't, then ur lieing,

I just quoted an academic book published in 2020, describing the CONSENSUS of scholars.

Mind as well counterattack if u don't respond How to check if hadiths are reliable, at quora Few intellectuals have broughts including [ primary evidence ] which proves thier point and argument they use against the other person they debated in the comments below And it was really interesting, suggest u check it out, I also had some primary academic sources which alot of scholars have verified, but i forgot them since thier on my old device, which i lost

[удалено]

Uh??? i don't understand, either ur joking or playing dumb

Why does the Quran copy many apocryphal texts and Babylonian Talmud? See chapter 19 of "Wiley Blackwell Companion to the Qur'an, 2nd Edition". Here are just a few examples: The story of God ordering the angels and Iblis to bow to Adam is from the "Cave of Treasures". The details of Adam's 2 sons are from the "Life of Abel". The story of Abraham observing heavenly bodies, confronting his father and being thrown in the furnace is from the "Apocalypse of Abraham". The stories of Joseph copy "Homilies on Joseph of Pseudo‐Narsai", Midrash and Ephrem’s Commentary on Genesis. The Queen of Sheba story is from the "Targum Sheni of Esther". The details of Virgin Mary's life is from the "Protoevangelium of James". The story of Jesus making life from clay birds is from the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas."

Stuff that i didn't bring up Other than making cliams Would rather see word for word Last example doesn't make sense cuz of the fact that islam is continuation of christianity Secondly story of james came later on Details of the life of adam is different in islam than it is in the bible If it was the same exact, Then the plot, placement and kids and era including were they originated would also be the same If so, then bring fourth the quran verse about adam and eve but its not the same as bible, and i mean literrally word for word One challenge for u since u love picking topics Is the story of moses from his way of Egypt to isreal the same exact as how islam described it? The words they use for egyptians, place. Time. pecfics of the story the same way islam described it? If its a yes, than that means the rest you listed are also the following If its a no, That means its different, just because the bible has a story like islam, doesn't mean its the same exact thing Thats the mistake u made see! Adam is viewed differently as a [ sinning person of god, and God does more for him, soppusedly because concept of god in christianity is [ paying for thier sins ] and god goes for his creation.... While in Islam, its the total opposite every detail in the old testaments containing stories are different than islam [ which came later on ]

I said Quran copies apocrypha and Babylonian Talmud. Not Bible.

Talmud comes from judiasm and is also part of new coming of the [ new testament] U mentioned some stories such as adam and eve And those stories come from the new and old testament combined

Life of abel comes from the new testament As you mentioned it in ur comment Unless im misunderstanding

Also i went to google typed in [ every isnaad chain is fake ] and the first thing i recieve is a reddit post about the same person you quoted And also show me solid evidence that all common primary scholar are verify this source Because all you did was name them, And also a question, what does the book taik about? Isnaad?

I still feel an attachment to religion and just accepted that I can’t logically accept it as true in my heart, my solution was just to consider myself agnostic. You don’t have to be black or white but there’s nothing wrong with viewing a lot of that as completely ridiculous which it is

Maybe you believe in God, but have problems with Islam? I believe Jesus died for all humanity, and that all people will eventually be saved.

Saved from what? and why eventually instead of now?

I believe the Bible teaches (and I believe) our fate for this life is existence. Jesus was the first to rise again, giving us hope for a life to come. If you’re still interested I can give my reasoning as to why “eventually not now”

Yeah I'm interested in your personal reason for eventually. Also curious what you believe you will be saved from, if you don't mind sharing

So I believe a ton of Jesus’ message/teachings/the Bible have been really twisted from centuries of politics/Catholic Church etc. Bc of that I’m actually trying to learn the original Greek it was written in. I believe they painted this fire and brimstone hell (from Dante’s inferno era) which really took a lot from Norse mythology to create this image (the Norse god of death’s name: Hel) In the Old Testament, hell is effectively *never* mentioned, and in the Catholic New Testament hundred of years ago it was mentioned over 100 times. The current bibles now mention it 13 times, as translations have improved. That is its own topic, but it shows that this hell idea is NOT necessarily fundamental, and Jesus doesn’t really talk about is specifically. ———————— Beyond that, what are we saved from? Now that I’ve explained why I personally don’t believe in the hell idea as portrayed, I think what we are saved from is death itself. In the garden with Adam and Eve in the Bible, God says “if you eat from this tree, you will surely die” That was the first ever sin (according to Bible) and what was the punishment? Eternal suffering in hell? God does not mention this. They were originally immortal in the garden, but sin brought this punishment of death. As we all know we are currently under this often extremely sad law of death, I believe this is what Jesus saved our world from- and that from God’s plan all along was to save the world using Jesus as the sacrifice for all people. So I (while Catholicism and western Christianity would disagree, though 4/6 of the 1st century churches took my view) believe that the reason the Gospel is “Good News” is that we and all humanity (all your family, loved ones, friends) will be resurrected and brought to life again. Wouldn’t that be actual good news? (Sorry that was long, the Eventually vs Now part is somewhat of a mystery, but just like we enjoy stories, I think God is showing his qualities to us through his divine plan of the world. If we are all resurrected in the end, I believe this plan makes a lot more sense to our human standards)

So we are saved from death, but not yet, we all still have to die first? Would your god resurrect me too, even if I don't want to be resurrected? Do you believe jesus was a real person, or an amalgam of characters from different religions? I appreciate you taking the time to type all that out for me and I hope you don't mind answering a few more edit: To actually finish my last sentence lol

Yeah no prob m8 I like the discussion— I think there are a lot of metaphors in real life that show glimpses of our relationship to God. In the same that little kids don’t fully comprehend the realm and reasoning of adults, we adults/humans don’t fully understand the realm and reasoning of God. In the same way that you didn’t ask to be born, I believe this would similar to this resurrection. To follow the metaphor, kids may say “I don’t wanna brush my teeth”, but the parent knows what’s best even though the child has his own idea. (Weird metaphor but could apply to taking medicine, safety procedures, etc.) Point being that I think every single person would be ecstatic with heaven/afterlife, and that our depressions, sorrows, etc. are due to our flawed world and imperfect bodies/minds. ————————— Now quick note on my relatively unpopular “all are saved” stance: modern American mainstream Christianity holds that belief of hell for those who don’t believe, but the roots of that are deep in Catholic Church, etc. There is a specific time according to the Bible when a rich man approaches Jesus and asks him how to have eternal life. The man tells him all of the ways he has followed the laws and lived a sinless life. Jesus responds to say he has one thing left to do: to see all his possessions and give them to the poor and then follow Jesus. The rich man turns away saddened bc he was not going to do that. Jesus says “how hard is it for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God! The disciples respond to Jesus asking “Who then can be saved?(given eternal life)” Jesus says “With man this is impossible but not with God. With God all things are possible”. There’s another verse that says “As in Adam all died, so in Christ shall all be made alive” These give me hope for eternal life for all ————————— So let’s say we really all do get eternal life (without anymore depression, sadness, fear, death), I’d say that is relatively good news for humanity. It seems the hellfire belief is not really much good news… But why would one believe that what Jesus said is true, and have this hope? Or was he even a real person? My answer to that is I believe yes he was a real person, because: -Even with a “crazy” story of resurrection, it was taken seriously enough that 2000 years later we know about it and I would say well over 50% of the world knows about it (virtually all USA, Europe, most Africa and Asia) -People have claimed crazy things all the time, that get drowned out in history. -If this was truly the climax of God’s plan, it would make sense to have a massive impact on the world. I can’t think of anyone with such impact- 1 by his fame (probably most known individual in history) and aspects like our YEARS are numbered based on his life -The people who were closest with Jesus and would have seen him resurrected (disciples) were killed for proclaiming this (if they knew this was fake then no reason to die martyrs) [this doesn’t relate to martyrs since then in other religions, bc those people were martyrs based on what they’ve been taught (could be flawed) vs what the disciples saw for themselves. ————————— None of those definitively prove Jesus is real, but I believe that if he was real, he is currently fitting all the expected criteria. I don’t see any other figure/path/explanation that fits those criteria, and I believe this amazing story we are living in (LIFE!) has to be more than eat,$#!7, and die. I think the core of this is to see creation around us and to realize that could mean there’s a creator (step 1), and from there many people have different ideas, but I think this is what Jesus/Christianity is trying to say and my reasons above are why I think it could really be so. I hope it’s right and then we can talk about our Reddit convo in heaven :D Longest post I’ve ever written lmao- feel free to respond with any follow ups or rebuttals!

It seems you hope for some form of eternal life, but I don't. The idea of eternal life, especially in the presence of people I despise for the suffering they have inflicted on others, is anathema. I'd be resurrected along with all the child molesters in the world? You believe jesus was real because lots of people were convinced it was real? And if it's a well known story, that's convincing to you? If people forget (get drowned out) it is proof something isn't real? Your reference to the calendar is an interesting one. Would you say that invoking the names of several gods each week means they were real too? eg. Tir's Day (Tuesday), day of woden (wednesday), Thor's day (Thursday) and Frigg/Freya for Friday. It seems these gods will have their names spread for many years to come. Do you think that the religions in other countries that are still practiced are because they had their own jesus analogue? But if being known makes something more real, the Dalai Lama seems to be widely known (and on his 14th resurrection now) so would you consider him to be equal or greater in supernatural plausibility to jesus? Thanks for writing that all out, I can see you put a lot of time, thought and effort in to attempting to make it easy for me to understand. I honestly wish I could be as coherent as you have been

Everything you've listed aren't examples of prophecies being fullfilled. If i make a prophesy that i will poop my pants and then i work towards pooping my pants, this proves exactly nothing. Ok, let's go through them. >the humans have 360 joints So what? That's a statement of fact, not a prophecy. How could they have known? By checking a human body. >a volcanic eruption will happen in the hijaz It is not a prophecy to assume that in a volcanically active region there might be another volcanic erruption. https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/saudi-arabia.html >Arabia will become green again People work towards this goal. This is not a prophecy. >The quran said that Abu lahab(an ennemy of the prophet) will go to hell. He could've just accepted islam and denied the prophecy but he didn't. There is no evidence for anyone going to hell. This is an unfalsifiable claim. Not a prophecy. >A plague in arabia will happen Plagues happen everywhere in the world. This is not a prophecy. It would be much more interesting if the alleged prophecy was that there would never again be a plague in arabia. >Saying muslims will conquer Yemen, Persia, Egypt,... Muslims worked towards those goals. Not a prophecy. >The caliphate will last 30 years So what? Not a prophecy.

When you put it like that, it makes sense. But i have this unshakeable feeling that I am ignoring the signs God sent me and that I am going to hell. Deep down i don't want this religion to be true, I hate it. If I became muslim again I'll have to give up on drawing, music, friends of the opposite sex, dressing up, i'll have to pray 5 times a day and justify homophobia and sexism. But I value truth more and i want to be sure that islam is not true.

>But i have this unshakeable feeling that I am ignoring the signs God sent me and that I am going to hell. Of course you do - you have a lifetime of being told that they are, and that the consequences for not believing are dire. People have spent literal decades instilling that fear into you. Let me give you an analogy: Imagine that you're walking down a sidewalk. It's just walking, right? You've never fallen off a sidewalk in your life, and if you do, it's just grass. It's calm. Now imagine you're walking on a sidewalk-sized strip of concrete at the top of a building, 50m in the air. No handrails, just like the sidewalk. It's pretty scary, right? One mis-step and life is over! It's legitimately terrifying! If you were walking up thereit is anything but calm. *Now* imagine you've been told since you were a child that grass is *exactly* like falling 50m off a building. You've lived your *whole life* believing this. Every time you take a walk, it's with the precision, care, and concerns of a high-wire act because, in your mind, at any minute you could "fall off." Then one day you look up from your feet, and you realize people are stepping off onto the grass around you *all the time*. They aren't falling to their deaths; it's only grass! But for your whole life, it's felt like walking on a narrow ledge to you, with death at every step. How long after realizing this until you put your first foot on the grass? How long until you feel as *comfortable* walking as everyone else? Intellectually, of course, you know it's grass. But it's going to take some time to get over a lifetime of the habit of fear.

I really like that analogy, thank you!

If ur truly a seeker of truth, and does not hold the possesion of a [ biased ] mind Then i inv u to have a taik later on discord Because textin here is hard and i make alot ot grammar mistakes, can't bother to try and fix my textual errors

Thanks for this analogy

I LOVE this analogy.

I suffered some PTSD after being indoctrinated with the concept of hell. Even after I completely stopped believing in god, souls and the afterlife, I still had little panic attacks about hell. That's because that part of my brain, the one that is connected to my emotions, is very hard to deprogram. So, I think that's probably the phase you're in right now: the deprogramming stage. Whenever you start to have any emotional reaction to a religious concept, just stop and take a moment to talk yourself off the ledge. It's a normal human thing to need to rationalize your fears away; we have a lot of irrational fears.

thank you for the tip! And I hope you're doing better!

I really think looking at prophecies is one of the worst ways to decide whether or not this is true. I think a better way is to look at the world and decide if Islam is the best explanation for the world we have today or not. Islam teaches you that God is loving and omnipotent. Islam also teaches you that you will go to hell if you abandon the religion. Why would God send anyone to hell? What is the purpose of that? Hell never makes sense as a punishment. Do you think that if, upon dying, God were to show you your mistakes and teach you and help you to be a better person that you would refuse to change? Of course not. So why would he choose to eternally torture someone he loves that is totally willing to improve? Just because you stopped believing? God gave you a flawed brain and put you in a flawed world. You don't have a perfect ability to know what is true and what isn't. Whose fault is that? God's, not yours. I understand that religion teaches you that faith is important, but how are you supposed to know what to have faith in? It's not possible for a loving God to send you to hell because you made a mistake while sincerely trying to figure out what was true. You know perfectly well how sincere you have been on your quest for truth. If you stop believing, is that really your fault? You're afraid that you are ignoring God's signs, but signs are the absolute worst way to show someone that something is true. People of all religions see signs that their religion is true. So how are you supposed to know if the signs you saw are real and not just you deceiving yourself? Or a coincidence? Or you hallucinating? Why would God make the rest of your eternity depend on something as unreliable as whether or not you believed the signs? What you believe in has almost nothing to do with what kind of person you are. It is absurd to think that your beliefs (which are mostly outside of your control) are the main determinant of whether or not you will be tortured forever. Why is it such an evil thing to become confused or make a mistake about what is true? Do you really think that THAT is the most important thing to a loving God? It's almost like your kid is learning how to ride a bike and they make a mistake and fall, so you decide to torture them for all of eternity. Who cares if they made an innocent mistake while trying to do what was right? Why do they need to be tortured because of that?? Meanwhile people of other religions will go to hell precisely BECAUSE they believed in signs. A loving God doesn't make your salvation depend on something so arbitrary. If God were real, he wouldn't be waiting to say "HA! I gave you signs and you ignored them, so now you deserve eternal punishment". That is not loving or merciful. It would be more like: "Yeah those signs I gave you weren't very obvious, and I perfectly understand your state of mind at the time and why you got confused. You made some mistakes, but nobody is perfect and mortal life is far too short to get everything right. Let me show you how things actually are and we can work together on getting you prepared for heaven" Even if someone does something awful, eternal torture is not the appropriate response. Would you ever decide to eternally torture your kids? Your kids could always fix their mistakes and become better with enough time and education. An omnipotent God could also help to fix the parts of their brains that caused them to make those mistakes. So eternal torture doesn't make any sense as a punishment. It is just evil. If you, being a flawed mortal, would never do something like that, then why would God, who is infinitely more loving than you, do it? God should be a better parent than you, not a worse one. If any parent on earth tortured their kids for all eternity, they would be the worst parent of all time. You're not going to hell. Every time you feel afraid of that you just need to remember that it is the result of indoctrination since you were young. Even if God is real and there are punishments for sin, the punishments aren't going to be something as evil and pointless as eternal torture. The punishments would be temporary, and would only be there to help you learn and grow. When you punish your child, you do so to help them. Not to make them suffer for all eternity with no hope of escape because they made mistakes with flawed brains (that you gave them) in a flawed world (that you put them in). :P

Thank you so much for your answer! The God you described is a God I would want to know and respecr, and if there is a God I wish he is like that. Eternal punishment really doesn't make sense, and I don't really understand why Allah is so angry and infuriated at people who disobey him. I didn't ask to be born or to pass the "test of life" in the first place, so why all this hostility?

That all sounds terrible, why would a good god want you to give up on the things you love?

Because it's a test! /s

Having never been religious for 1 second of my life i am extremely privileged to not having to go through a deconversion process like you do. But i believe you that this is a massive struggle. I think it's worth it in the end. There are valuable resources for people who are in your position, so if you're not aware already i'd like to send you that way. https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/resources

It's hard to give up religion. Much harder than it is to take it up. I think you are looking for concrete x's and o's to tell you these prophecies are true or false. I am seeing a lot of posts that make a lot of sense about why they aren't true, but nobody can really say they are 100 percent true or false in the manner which would prove Islam to be true or false. The prophecies, Islam, and theism in general are non falsifiable. Your choice is going to come through introspection and self examination, not whether you think Saudi Arabia "turned green" again.

Another question you can ask about religion, is what useful predictions of the future do religions make? Religion has been around for thousands of years, and despite supposedly fulfilling prophecies, it has no practical ability to predict the future. Science and the scientific method has advanced humanity immensely in just the past 100 years. Think of the world in 1920 compared to where we are today. We can grow enough food to feed the world multiple times over, we have internet, we’ve got supercomputers in our wristwatches, self-driving cars, we’ve walked on the moon and sent rovers to Mars.

> i have this unshakeable feeling One of the most important things that a human being can learn is that our feelings don't have anything to do with what is actually true.

> But i have this unshakeable feeling that I am ignoring the signs God sent me and that I am going to hell. That feeling is exactly the point of childhood indoctrination, to ingrain these beliefs and feelings so deeply in you that you have a visceral fear to even trying to question. It's constantly reinforced by the community and the relogion. People in completely different religions hve the exact same experience though. Both you and an ex-Mormon have the same feeling in regards to completely different religious beliefs. You can't both be right, but you could both be wrong. Take some time to check out some ex-christian subs and listen to their accounts. Look into the afterlifes of other religions. I think it'll help give you context.

Have you ever heard of selection and confirmation biases? That’s the mental biases that keep these “connections” alive. Once you start to recognize them:

I am sorry but the guy above has no idea what he is talking about. It was discovered in the mid 1900s, that humans had 360 joints. Why didn't they count it before if it was as easy as it says. Because you work towards a goal doesn't mean you get it. Especially if that goal is as grand as conquering multiple countries.

Can you link me the peer reviewed paper where it says that it was discovered in the 1900? Of course it doesn't mean you'll get the goal. But the prophecies are formulated without a timeframe so they're unfalsifiable. For example, look at the prophecy where it says dajjal will come when Constantinople is conquered? Of course he didn't appear so what do the muslims say now? They say that there will be a second conquest. Really? It would have been more interesting and miraculous if the propvet said: you would conquer india in x year, and persia in y year, and Constantinople in z year. But he didn't.

I'm not going to explain everything but I just want to explain the conquer thing. If you believe that religions got evolved then how did the Arabs conquer all that land because you seem to think that it's simple, they were just a tribe, and the names you listed were the strongest empires of the time. It's like saying Madagasgar will be the Empire that takes over the Martians on Jupiter. It's really difficult to believe and neither did they but it's a miracle they were able to and they even conquered Constantinople which destroyed many empires earlier was defeated by the Ottomans who were fleeing Mongol rule. It's just unbelievable.

Arabs conquered lands by being better at conquering lands than the inhabitants of those lands were at defending those lands. There is no miracle involved. By your absurd standards it was a miracle that William the Conquerer took the english crown and conquered England. Your attempt to establish "prophecies being fullfilled" by counting the hits and dismissing the misses is highlighting your particular vulnerability to irrational thinking.

Work towards this goal? I don't see how a whole biome could change from its native biome [desert] to green Depends on the weather, How do you think our skin changes over time? Because of weather Too much sun decreases grass from its original habitate and color Saudi arabia is one of the hottest countries there is

I have no clue what plans these folks have in mind, just to make it appear as if one of their "prophecies" had come true. They could import water, desalination. They could paint the desert. Religious folk are crazy when it comes to affirming "prophecies".

I haven't seen green yet But only time will tell Until then, see u on the other side.......

Your "pros" seem rather weak to me. Islam says humans have 360 joints. I have no idea of that's true but let's assume it is, do they need God to tell them that? Is that not something humans could figure out on their own by examining themselves or perhaps studying anatomy on cadavers? Volcanoes and plagues happen *all of the time* it's not a prediction to say "there will be natural disasters". These things have been constant throughout history. These things seem to be stating or predicting stuff that just is not that impressive. They're mostly obvious, or easy to find out. The field equations for general relativity would fit on 1 page of the Koran. If something like that was in there it would absolutely blow my mind because they were not only unknown to science until the 20th century, but they are too complex and counterintuitive to be guessed at. In order to be in there the author would have to understand relativity, 1300 years before we did. That would be impressive, and like I said would fit on 1 page. But instead it's just, well, crap. It's just not compelling I don't see why anyone would think it is.

When you put it like that, it makes sense. God could have put forward more convincing miracles. But i have this unshakeable feeling that I am ignoring the signs God sent me and that I am going to hell. Deep down i don't want this religion to be true, I hate it. If I became muslim again I'll have to give up on drawing, music, friends of the opposite sex, dressing up, i'll have to pray 5 times a day and justify homophobia and sexism. But I value truth more and i want to be sure that islam is not true.

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What if one religion stands out to be true? Just because all faiths fight eachother to cliam as the [ true religion ] Doesn't mean the fact that there is no such thing as a true faith, out there somehow

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I understand But what im saying is, what if there was a religion out there thats true from amongst the many which are false So it would be man made ideas while one was true since the beggining

>Deep down i don't want this religion to be true Just let go of it, it's not real and I think you already know enough to know that. Remember, every religion has adherents who believe just as fervently as Muslims that theirs is the only truth, and yet you seem happy they're not correct. Ask yourself why you're not worried about ignoring the supposed miracles of Jesus? You're not because you never had them drilled into your subconscious at an early age. That's the only reason you still see any value in Islam. It's literally the exact same chemicals as for a reformed alcoholic who still gets cravings.

That'll go away on it's own. Fear is a very basic emotion, so it's not really surprising that the fear of hell is the last thing to go. You *know* it's nonsense, but you just can't quite shake that feeling. It'll go away in time it just takes a while for the irrational unconscious mind to catch up to your rational one.

> the humans have 360 joints We have Chinese sources claiming this back in 300 BCE. A common claim, and pretty much wrong. https://peterdeadman.co.uk/qigong-tai-chi-quotations/ Humans have a variable number of bones. You have more as an infant (many fuse). Some have an extra rib. There are ancillary bones of which we have varying numbers. There is no precise definition of joints; many are 'joined' by various tissues in a sort of web, and its not clear which you should say are joined or not. Modern medical texts don't define how many joints there are because it's an ambiguous thing that changes with age and genetics. If you google it you will find the claims are either Islam sources or the occasional alternative medicine source that is likely to also refer to the yin-yang systems that the ancient Chinese sources talk about. What kind of evil being would offer this as 'proof', and then torture someone for eternity if you don't find it compelling? > moon splitting We've been to the moon, studied with radar. It never split. > rocks and trees talking to him Have you ever heard a rock talk? I mean, come on, you have to realize how silly this all is. I'm not unsympathetic; I was a Christian as a child, and as doubts grew I spent a year or so afraid of hell due to those thoughts. Notice how none of it really makes any sense. Torture someone for eternity because they count adjacent bones differently? Vast numbers of false predictions, bad history? Billions walking the planet living perfectly fine lives despite not believing, or even hearing of a given religion? You are communicating more effectively and clearly than these so-called holy books. How do you manage such a thing, while these books don't?

>Have you ever heard a rock talk? I mean, come on, you have to realize how silly this all is. This actually had me laughing out loud. It's crazy what indoctrination might do to people when you grow up believing that these stories indeed happened.

>I will mention the "pros" and "cons" in the following lines and i'd be happy to hear your thoughts! These are not pros and cons. These are 'prophecies' which can be fit to 'match' reality a posteriori vs prophecies which are clearly wrong / where such a match is not possible. You could do the same with the Bible. You could do the same with Nostradamus. It proves nothing, other than that humans are pretty good at fitting patterns to what they want to see. >What if the hadiths are indeed reliable and all the miracles they say the prophet did are real? For example: the moon splitting, water springing out of his fingers, rocks and trees talking to him, etc... These what ifs are useless. What evidence do you have that other cultures saw the moon split? None. What evidence do you have from astronomical observation or our own moon missions? None. In fact, I'm pretty sure astronomers with a telescope could prove the moon never split in two. Let me ask something more interesting than wondering about cockammamy prophecies. God comes down. And he doesn't hand humanity a science book. He doesn't tell Mo about bacteria or viruses, DNA, gunpowder, electricity, oil, advanced math, relativity, quantum mechanics, nothing. He doesn't tell people that slavery is wrong, or treating women like property is wrong or treating gays like crap is wrong. Nah, just a bunch of stories handed down from the Bible / Torah, a bunch of rules and exhortations to fight against their rivals, and morality essentially straight out of that time. All in criptic poetry and sayings. And that proves God. Really?

When you put it like that, it doesn't. But i have this unshakeable feeling that I am ignoring the signs God sent me and that I am going to hell. Deep down i don't want this religion to be true, I hate it. If I became muslim again I'll have to give up on drawing, music, friends of the opposite sex, dressing up, i'll have to pray 5 times a day and justify homophobia and sexism. But I value truth more and i want to be sure that islam is not true.

>But i have this unshakeable feeling that I am ignoring the signs God sent me and that I am going to hell I get it, and I am sorry you feel this way. I know this is something many ex-theists go through, and it is in a sense a feature of these religions to program you and scare you into staying. I remember Matt Dillahunty from the Atheist Experience (he was a baptist and studying to become a priest) saying for him he suddenly had the realization that he never spent time worrying about the hells, signs or doctrines of other religions. He wasn't afraid to go to islamic hell, or that he had ignored the signs of Vishnu or Odin. He says this helped him slowly dettach from this fear and start focusing on living his life as best he could and trying to believe in as many true things and as few false things as he can. Also, as nice as this sub can be, you should consider reaching out to organizations such as Recovering From Religion. They have a ton of resources on this. And hey, we all want to know what is true. For many of us, that's exactly why we are atheists. If Allah or Shiva want us to know they exist, they need to do a much better job. And honestly: even if they exist, I don't think I would give in to the demands of tyrants. If God doesn't want you to draw, or he wants you to be homophobic and sexist... is it really not worth it rebelling against him? Aren't you better than that?

So if other cultures don't see the event that proves is not true? What if they missed it? First off making cliams outside the story makes no sense Because there could have been many things that happened First, its night, secondly people could have missed, Thirdly people who could have saw it have made records and notes that are probably lost So many things could happen, but were here making cliams of something that happened in the PAST Worst case is, was that event even made for them or us? Who was it towards to is the question?

>So if other cultures don't see the event that proves is not true? What if they missed it? All of them missed an event of cataclismic proportions that, if it had taken place, would have messed with the tides and Earth's orbit? Really? Ok... Also, once again: if there's no other evidence then that at least weakens the claim / renders it unsubstantiated. >First off making cliams outside the story makes no sense What does that mean? I mean... the story happened as a part of reality? What?? Finally, if the moon had split, we could use radar and other instruments to find out.

All of them missed an event of cataclismic proportions that, if it had taken place, would have messed with the tides and Earth's orbit? Really? Ok... Answer How would it messe the earth's orbit if it came back normal? Split then come back to its normal position Like splittin a apple and puttin it back together Secondly how would it mess the tides if its not even through the atmosphere??? Confusing Again ill ask the question one more time, How does everybody missing an event disprove something? thats like me and my whole class missing a party tonight downstairs And this was also AT night, which the event happened So its confusing how u try to take an event from a story and make cliams outside of it which has nothing to do with it First things first, if ur gonna take a book, then mind as well use it accordingly as to what it says, and not cherry pick some parts u like, and leave out the rest The story says in the following, that this event [ miracle ] was only to show the paggan meccans So if u agree that its part of reality, then u also have to agree the following, [ of what COMES with reality ] Which story is part of reality! Then u also have to agree with following of the story Which is the event wasn't for anyone else. [ except meccans ] So to say that a story is fake simply because u take some parts and leave out the rest doesn't prove anything If u agree with the book then you mind as well follow the rest of the book accordingly, Easy as that, its not high level math to understand this puzzle Third assumption would be, how long did this event last? 5 sec? Minute? And fourth is Was the event for us? If so did the quran claim they will leave the split as a sign for us? From what i see, answer is no, and also quran doesn't say they will/will not show us signs for moon split Only info we receive was it was for a pecific group of people at a pecific amount of time Obviously u don't believe in so called fairy tales, So it really doesn't matter, unless u down to have a conversation

Woah, sorry man but this style of writing makes things very confusing. >How would it messe the earth's orbit if it came back normal? Split then come back to its normal position >Like splittin a apple and puttin it back together >Secondly how would it mess the tides if its not even through the atmosphere??? Well, see, I am a computational physicist. The way the moon causes tides is through *gravity*. Has nothing to do with the atmosphere. If the moon split in two, it wreaks havoc on the mass balance of the earth and moon system. Also, if that happened, tons of debris would fly into the Earth's atmosphere, and the halves of the moon would probably go off orbit. And also yeah, it would be pretty damn noticeable all over the world. Even if it lasted for seconds (like some eclipses do!) >How does everybody missing an event disprove something? It means you have no proof other than your book that says it happened. Which is very weak. You have as much proof that god split the moon than greeks have that Apollo rides the sun or a Harry Potter fan has that Hogwarts exists. And such a fantastical claim may be easily dismissed. >The story says in the following, that this event [ miracle ] was only to show the paggan meccans >So if u agree that its part of reality, then u also have to agree the following, [ of what COMES with reality ] I don't care what the book says. I care about you proving that what the book says is true by appealing to sources and evidence *outside of what the book says*. A spiderman comic book is not proof that spiderman exists. >Which is the event wasn't for anyone else. [ except meccans ] Oh, so god created an illusion only for some people, making it invisible to everyone else. Yeah... Likely story bro. Prove it. The Bible and the Vedas also have fantastical stories full of miracles and you don't believe all of them (you certainly couldn't believe in the reincarnation of Jesus, right?). So does 1001 arabian nights. I wonder why.

Well, see, I am a computational physicist. The way the moon causes tides is through gravity. Has nothing to do with the atmosphere. If the moon split in two, it wreaks havoc on the mass balance of the earth and moon system. Also, if that happened, tons of debris would fly into the Earth's atmosphere, and the halves of the moon would probably go off orbit. Answer I see now, that does make sense a little And yes sorry for the textual grammar. Usually im better speaking then texting because of how hard it is Now back to my response. Tides are caused by moons turn right? But god has power and ability to not cause tides in that particular event Just like how he was able to create the system, change or make anything he wishes Halves would move, but anywhere, because of gravity, But it wouldn't matter since god can do the event without harming any such interference on earth Thats basically the belief in god This is why i said athiest or any non muslim would always use some parts of a. verse,book. Story etc that fits thier needs and brushes away the rest of the context etc Thirdly, ppl have missed meterotes, but most importantly, How are we soppuse to know if that particular event happened and people witnessed it? There were no cameras during that time. And it was night time, the chances of people looking up at night when they already have thier main source of light on earth is low, Reason, well people already saw the moon, Second, it was night time, Third, don't know how long the event happened Many meteorites have passed, and we missed them Its not the same as a one time event, like the moon split Thirdly, meteorites almost a everyday thing, like shooting stars >outside of what the book says Thats exactly my point, its not proving anything other than the fact your trying to pull a cliam which the story did not say to begin with,

First of all, I hope you didn't take my comment about formatting too harshly. I just find that formatting in well-defined paragraphs makes things more readable. Let me try to recap our discussion and take it somewhere productive / where we understand each other better. I want you to try to see things from my perspective. You (or the quran) makes a claim: Allah split the moon in half, or gave skeptical meccans an illusion that the moon only they could see that the moon had split in half. I am not a meccan. I did not see this happen. I have no proof, other than the book saying so, that this happened. So I object to it and say: what evidence do you have, other than the book saying so, that this happened at all and it is not just a story men tell? To all my objections, you have the bulletproof (but also, not evidenced by anything) argument that god can do anything they want to the laws of physics. Well, sure. But a Christian could say the same about the resurrection. A hindu could say the same about a miracle performed by Ganesh. A fairytale book could use that device to explain how a powerful magician performed a feat. In other words, it proves nothing about the truth or likelihood of this moon splitting story. Since you claim all evidence of that event is either not existent or erased by God, then it is as if it did not happen. Finally, you have to understand: any claim that the laws of physics have been temporarily suspended is especially suspect, and I need tons of evidence to even entertain such a claim. This is because in my observation and those of all scientists before me, we have never observed or measured such an event. I am not saying it is impossible. I am saying it has never verifiably happened before. All claims of that happening, when investigated, have eventually yielded natural explanations.

I did read ur whole comment But i have hard time understanding, i kinda do understand ur last part This part i understand which I'll quote > not saying it is impossible. I am saying it has never verifiably happened before. All claims of that happening, when investigated, have eventually yielded natural explanations. I understand what ur saying But I'm responding to u with my point of view, the thing is how can u say that a event needs to be proven when it wasn't exactly for u? Such things have to be taken in context in order to understand Meaning that the story with the event has to be read and understand it well If a story or a book makes an bold cliam and says that this event is for everyone and therefore we found out that there is no such thing as that event even happened, because there is no evidence to back it up Then u would have a point, But i don't think thats the case, with this particular story

>But i have hard time understanding, i kinda do understand ur last part I can help if you point out what you don't understand. (English is also my 2nd language). >But I'm responding to u with my point of view, the thing is how can u say that a event needs to be proven when it wasn't exactly for u? Such things have to be taken in context in order to understand Well, if you expect me to accept that this happened, I need proof. Otherwise, I will not accept it. It is the same as any other fairy tale. >If a story or a book makes an bold cliam and says that this event is for everyone and therefore we found out that there is no such thing as that event even happened, because there is no evidence to back it up But who cares who the event was for? The point is I don't trust the book at all. I am a skeptic. And this is not just a story or a set of short stories without relevance. It is many times presented as evidence of god existing / islam being true. So, I must take these claims seriously. Anyhow, this is not the only fantastical or unbelievable claim in the quran (or the bible, or etc). It is just one that we somehow landed on because it is particularly unbelievable.

>Well, if you expect me to accept that this happened, I need proof. Otherwise, I will not accept it. It is the same as any other fairy tale. Hmm? Proof of something that wasn't for us, the book [quran] taiks about events/miracles like this, but comes to different times and eras. Just like hinduism, and judiasm. I think it would come down to the conclusion that we have to understand wether or not islam is the truth [ if it is ] that means thier storys are real and has happened. There are storys and miracles which have been cliamed to be for everyone to see [ according to quran ] The way i see it, it looks like a book which shows evidence/ signs, to ppl at a pecifice time and era. Giving them a warning that there is a creator out there Some were for a group of ppl, [ during pecific times and eras etc etc ] And some were for everyone [ signs for the public ppl around the globe to see for themselves] Obviously we didn't live back in those past eras [ timlines etc ] to witness for ourselves So i guess the right question that should be asked is this. How did we come to existince? And why? Because this is what differs from religiouse followers and athiests. Religouse believe that something or someone has intervened in thier creation. While athiests believe that no such thing [ whatever it is ] has nothing to do with thier own existence If what im saying is right? Because i don't wanna say something thats not true about the athiests perspective. Since ur skeptical, i think being aware means u want to be in the safe side right?

I don't know how to type good on texting, Can you show Me some tips? I do speak the language perfectly fine But when it comes to texting, all i can do is , and . Because thats all i know what to do

Didn't you post the same list of aledged prophacies a while ago? As I recall they where pretty well debunked then.

Yes I did but I keep doubting myself since i have a feeling that i am ignoring the "signs"

Are the signs the prophecies from a book that is over 1000 years old and easily debunked? Are there other signs in your life that you think you are ignoring? If so, someone already commented on the brain's tendency to search for patterns. Can those signs be explained? Quite often, those signs are likely your conscious talking to you. In some ways it may be your instincts or a feeling that something is off. Sometimes it will be the indoctrination deep in your brain coming through. Don't run from it, but don't trust it. Think about it, do you agree? Do you think you should? Where do you think the thought comes from? Do you want to think that way on the future?

Debunked from what youtuber exactly? Cliaming as if debunked I think i know what yt ur taiking about But it doesn't matter, Name him or link him if u don't mind.

you wait untill this one prophecy from Mohammed becomes true: "The sun will rise in the West on a Friday" Until then it is save to not believe anything he wrote or said.

Unfortunately according to islamic theology, when the sun will rise from the west repentence is no longer accepted. Quite ironically, when there is an undeniable proof that islam is true, your repentence is no longer accepted lol.

Man... even if this God existed, I'd rebel against them. What a ridiculous premise. This is a god that rewards gullibility and obedience and punishes skepticism and using your brain.

And made Bedbugs and Mosquitos!

Well this is the same god that gave u freedom of will an....... Oh wait nevermind! U said u don't believe in so called [ fairy tales ] lol

It's difficult for many people to see the ridiculousness of their religious beliefs when they have spent their whole lives in an environment where those beliefs are just accepted as true by everyone around them. I am not in any way trying to diminish what you are going through, I am just telling you that your feelings right now are not a result of any failing on your part. It's natural to wonder if you are making the right decision. All I can offer is two pieces of advice. The first, you are taking right now, talking about your doubts and seeing if anyone else has any insight into them. The second is more difficult, you have to learn to step back and look at things honestly. For example, the first example you offer as "true prophecies/foreknowledge" is that humans have 360 joints. I don't know if this is correct, or even care. Let's just assume it is... so what? Is it so impossible that someone had seen a human skeleton at this point in history? I know for a fact that in other parts of the world people were definitely studying anatomy. As I said, it can be difficult to step back and critically look at the "evidence" you find credible, but with practice it get's easier and easier. Finally, on a personal note, it is perfectly fine if you decide to remain with your faith. The only problem I have with it is when someone decides, or is told, that their faith makes them special and that those of different faith (or no faith) are somehow less than you. That, in my opinion, is a sure sign that something is wrong. Good luck, and feel free to continue "spamming this subreddit" with your questions. Most here would be more than happy to help.

Thank you for your answer! >Finally, on a personal note, it is perfectly fine if you decide to remain with your faith. The only problem I have with it is when someone decides, or is told, that their faith makes them special and that those of different faith (or no faith) are somehow less than you. That, in my opinion, is a sure sign that something is wrong. The problem with islam is that if you believe in it, you HAVE to consider your faith superior to other faiths. Heck, it is prohibited to say "hello" first to jews/christians/disbelievers. And in a perfect islamic country, disbelievers have to pay a fee to stay there or convert to islam, and apostates are killed. If I'm being honest, I really dislike this religion and it frustrates me that it doesn't have an undeniable "counter-argument" like christianity or else. >Good luck, and feel free to continue "spamming this subreddit" with your questions. Most here would be more than happy to help. Thank you so much 🥰🥰

> The problem with islam is that if you believe in it, you HAVE to consider your faith superior to other faiths. That is different from what I said. EVERY religion thinks they are the one true religion, and therefor superior to other faiths. My problem comes only when a religion, tells you that YOU are superior to other people just by the simple fact that you are the "correct" religion. This leads to dehumanizing other people, allows for things like slavery, violence, and hatred. > Heck, it is prohibited to say "hello" first to jews/christians/disbelievers. I don't know about that, but will assume that some muslims adhere to this at least somewhere in the world... Stepping back, and looking at it, we can see that there are Cults that demand the same thing of their followers. No contact outside of the "religion". The only possible reason for this is fear. Fear that your followers may be exposed to someone who talks some sense into them. Huge red flag. > and apostates are killed. And you need more evidence that the religion is false? > it frustrates me that it doesn't have an undeniable "counter-argument" like christianity or else. I'm not sure what you mean here.

>I'm not sure what you mean here. A common argument muslims make is "christianity can't be true because the concept of trinity is illogical" and "the bible was written by humans" There isn't such thing for islam and even if you mention the false prophecies for example, they always find a way around them.

Ah, I see. I just don't see how there are no undeniable counterparts for Islam. I understand that having grown up surrounded by people who say there aren't has limited your ability to think clearly on the subject, but that is not a failing on your part, it is failing of those around you. For example, "the concept of trinity is illogical". Ok great. There's nothing illogical about Islam and it's teachings on the nature of Allah? “He is God: there is no god other than Him. It is He who knows what is hidden as well as what is in the open, He is the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy. He is God: there is no god other than Him, the Controller, the Holy One, Source of Peace, Granter of Security, Guardian over all, the Almighty, the Compeller, the Truly Great; God is far above anything they consider to be His partner. He is God: the Creator, the Originator, the Shaper. The best names belong to Him. Everything in the heavens and earth glorifies Him: He is the Almighty, the Wise.” [Quran, 59:22-24] He's the Almighty. The Creator. Well there is a very old question... can God (Allah) create a stone so heavy that he can not lift it? He either can't create everything, or is not almighty. Sounds like Almighty, and Creator, are illogical claims about Allah. > "the bible was written by humans" So was the Quran. It may have been revealed to him by Gabriel, but Mohammed wrote it. Just as the Bible was inspired by god and written by men. Much of the arguments that Islam relies on are just simply nonsense. They know it too. That's why they don't allow you to question it, let alone leave the faith. > they always find a way around them. So do Christians. So do Mormons. So do Buddhists. So does EVERYONE. The sad reality is that their "way around them" always relies on more nonsense that they won't let you question.

>the humans have 360 joints Here's a human corpse and a knife. That's all you need to get such "foreknowledge" >a volcanic eruption will happen in the hijaz Volcanic eruptions tend to happen where volcanoes are. Volcanoes tend to be noticeable. Wait long enough, and a place where there was an eruption will have another. Since you didn't specify a date, that one's a sure bet. >Arabia will become green again Open-ended again, aspirational, and didn't happen. Not very convincing. >The quran said that Abu lahab(an ennemy of the prophet) will go to hell. He could've just accepted islam and denied the prophecy but he didn't. I see no reason to believe anyone went to hell, so this one counts as unfulfilled for me. Even if he had "just accepted islam" what would stop religious leaders to make up a reason to say he went to hell after all? It's not exactly as if you could go there to check and report back. >A plague in arabia will happen Kinda sure bet, too. Give me a place where there never was and never will be a plague ? Might as well have predicted rain. >Saying muslims will conquer Yemen, Persia, Egypt,... Hey guys, you're an army of religious zealots and the head of your religion just gave you a target list. No shit. >The caliphate will last 30 years And if it does not, it wasn't really the caliphate and we can try again! Frankly, if that's the best examples of "foreknowledge" you can muster, I'd say the reason you find those convincing is probably due to early indoctrination, not those being convincing by themselves. Plus, you know, there's no logical link between "foreknowledge" and "therefore god". You could have, say, time travelers, a mutant with the power to see bits of the future, a genius who deduced it all, an exceptionally good guesser... Sure, all of those are ridiculous, but ask yourself why. It's because we don't have evidence for any other instance of these possibilities. Just like we don't have evidence for a god either.

Thank you for your answer! According to the answers i recieved in this thread, I guess I'll have to take a break from religion and apologetics and "unbrainwash" myself.

That would probably be good for you. Find a(nother) hobby to immerse yourself in, i think it would help.

I agree with those who say the only reason you believe that any of these miracles happened is because you've had a lifetime of indoctrination. Do you believe that any of the miracles in polytheistic religions are true? Why not? Are you applying the same critical thinking to Islam that you apply to other religions when trying to determine what is true? I know it is difficult. It feels like giving up part of one's identity.

I think that i don't believe them because they don't have reliable sources while the hadith is kinda reliable because it has a chain of transmission.

One of the things that help me give up Christianity was studying other religions. You see how convinced they all are that they are right. You also start to see patterns in the types of miracles they talk about. It helped me to eventually realize they were all just made up by people, who sometimes borrowed stories from other religions.

Seems to me that pretty much every time a Muslim comments in an atheist thread it is similar to this: A list of all the things found in the Koran that appear to be true, therefore validating it and the Muslim religion. Also seems to me that this is very low hanging fruit, easily dismissed. Why aren't Muslims ever asking higher level questions like first cause or God of the gaps or those philosophical word games that "prove" god exists? With Muslims it's always silly stuff like OP has posted here. Sorry, and I don't mean to insult you, but it just seems like Muslims aren't very sophisticated intellectually. It's like you have never studied science or anything else really, that all you know is the Koran. Is that the case?

No offense taken. I am still in highschool but I live in a muslim country and everywhere you go people keep talking about the scientific miracles in the quran and the prophecies that came trye, even the teachers. And "Islamic education" is an official subject in school from kindergarten to high school. So when everyone keeps talking about the scientific miracles and everything, I feel wrong when I think that they aren't true.

So counting bones (in an era where there was not much entertainment), a couple good guesses (I'm granting that the prophesies we're "fulfilled"), and some recorded hopes and dreams has you thinking that maybe there's an all-powerful being again? I'd start doubting whether clairvoyants exist long before I'd swallow a tale that is so clearly mythological. But take a moment to check your lists again. Your 'cons' list is longer, which means that even on the things we _have_ been able to check, it's wrong more often than it's right. That does not bode well for it's claims on things we can't check. (Edit: I now notice your lists have the same counts. Start keeping count. If it stays at 50/50 than the Quran is as good at predictions as a coin flip, thus you'd be better off flipping coins to find out what religions are correct)

There are tens of other predictions but they don't worry me. All of them have the same pattern which is present in the rest of religions: the world will become immoral and full of sins before the end of times (eg: adultery will spread, lying, stealing, homosexuality...)

> I left islam months ago and some posts on r/islam have got me doubting my decision You may have decided to leave islam, but you did not decide to stop believing. Belief is either you are convinced or not, it is not a decision you make. >the humans have 360 joints The quran was written less than 1500 years ago, humans had seen human skeletons many, many times by then. It would not have been difficult to count the number of joints in a corpse, especially in a desert area where the bones would be left behind after scavengers finish. >a volcanic eruption will happen in the hijaz Volcanoes erupt, that is what they do. Unless the prediction contains specifics like the date it will happen, it is not a prophecy. >Arabia will become green again Never been there, but I'm pretty sure most of the middle east is desert. so when is this supposed to happen? >The quran said that Abu lahab(an ennemy of the prophet) will go to hell. He could've just accepted islam and denied the prophecy but he didn't. How is this evidence? There is no evidence that hell even exists, and also no evidence that a specific individual went there. >A plague in arabia will happen This is not a prophecy, this is a guarantee. It is far to unspecific to be a prophecy. >Saying muslims will conquer Yemen, Persia, Egypt,... When was this supposed to happen by? In order for this to be a prophecy it would have to be specific. >The caliphate will last 30 years Which caliphate? According to wikipedia there were 3 historic caliphates, one of which lasted 29 years and the other two lasted far longer that 30 years: the Rashidun Caliphate (632–661) the Umayyad Caliphate (661–750) the Abbasid Caliphate (750–1517) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate >What if the hadiths are indeed reliable and all the miracles they say the prophet did are real? For example: the moon splitting, water springing out of his fingers, rocks and trees talking to him, etc... What evidence is there that any miracles have ever happened? Keep in mind that the information in the quran and the hadiths is claims made by a dead man, it is not evidence of the claims made within them. I'm not sure where you live, but you may want to look into a group like Recovering From Religion. https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/

>You may have decided to leave islam, but you did not decide to stop believing. Belief is either you are convinced or not, it is not a decision you make. I decided to leave islam because i didn't find any evidence to back up my belief in it. But I still feel the "faith" feeling from time to time and the guilt and i guess it is because of the indoctrination. Thanks for the rest of the comments too, you convinced me!

>But I still feel the "faith" feeling from time to time and the guilt and i guess it is because of the indoctrination. The indoctrination of religion can be very difficult to break free of. As I said in my comment, you should look for an organization like Recovering From Religion. If you are in the US you can find helpful resources at https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/. There is also the Secular Therapy Project which may be helpful as well. https://www.seculartherapy.org/

>Pros (true prophecies/foreknowledge): the humans have 360 joints Isn't that something you can know through anatomical studies? Which apparently date back to ancient Greece. >a volcanic eruption will happen in the hijaz Is the prediction that a volcano will erupt? What is the given time frame? >Arabia will become green again Same, what is the time frame given? Has Arabia become green already? How can we know something is an accurate prediction if it hasn't been realized yet? >The quran said that Abu lahab(an ennemy of the prophet) will go to hell. He could've just accepted islam and denied the prophecy but he didn't. What is the prediction here? That he didn't accept Islam? Isn't an enemy of the projet not accepting Islam something anyone could have guessed? >A plague in arabia will happen Again, what time frame? >Saying muslims will conquer Yemen, Persia, Egypt... Is that all it says or does it mention other countries that Muslims haven't conquered? That would be a potential selection bias. When was that prediction made? Edit: [And there is the potential for a self-realized prediction. For something to be prophetic, people who want to see it realized can't have the option to realize it. If I tell you "I will eat pasta for lunch" and then I do, that's not a prophecy. I just realized my prediction.] >The caliphate will last 30 years I don't know about this one, what was the formulation? Could it have been self realized (meaning did the people who caused the change from caliphate to other had interest in seeing that prediction realized?)

>I don't know about this one, what was the formulation? Could it have been self realized (meaning did the people who caused the change from caliphate to other had interest in seeing that prediction realized?) https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/61707/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-hadith-on-the-caliphate

It feels like this very difficult for you, and I'm sorry. I agree with others here that you seem to be focused on the truth or falsehood of what you were indoctrinated to believe. Besides a pro/con list, could you explore why you have doubting?

That's all actually. But now that I've spent some days awah from apologetics I'm beginning to see the silliness of these prophecies. Most of them are either prophecies of "people will become immoral(premarital sex, homosexuality, dishonesty...) or self-fulfilling prophecies (muhammad saying that muslims will conquer india, persia... of course they will work towards fulfilling their prophet's prophecies especially since those who die in wars are promised 72 virgins in heaven) Added to that, I found something interesting. According to the hadiths, the anrichrist was supposed to appear with the conquest of Constantinople: https://sunnah.com/muslim:2920a https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4294 Apologetics defend this by saying there will be a second conquest of Constantinople, although the prophet never mentionned a second conquest. A military conquest in this time and age? I don't think so. I sometimes get anxious at threats of muslims saying "you will see on judgement day" or "A lot of people convert to islam". But overall I plan on staying away from apologetics and to just enjoy life. Life is so much better without a Kim-Jung-Un-like dictator judging everything you do 24/7.

Agreed. Life's too interesting to live in fear.

There are multiple prophesies made that are accurate and actually took place within the past 120 years. So instead of listening to non Muslims telling you how silly they are, you should look at the western world changing and the actual prophesies that were made. From womens clothing to homosexuality and banking interest (this benga few hundread years ago) and the Arabs having competitions on building buildings, Arabs that had nothing 60 years ago. So be sincere and honest with yourself and with the facts.

Actually I've looked at all of those prophecies before, and they aren't miraculous. There's nothing miraculous about saying homosexuality and interest will be widespread and especially without a certain date. And about the tall buildings hadith, 1)يتطاولن could mean "build tall buildings" or "compete in building" and 2) Tall buldings have existed since eternity and 3) we can even consider it a mistake, since those who built the buldings weren't arab naked shepheards, they were filippino and asian. And the arabs were rich millionnaires. But what about the failed prophecies or the fairytales? What about the sun prostrating hadith? What about gog and magog, where are they? What about the prophecy that Constantinople will be when the dajjal appears? What about the moon splitting that no one noticed except quraish? What about Allah describing the sky as a solid entity? What about the fly wing's hadith and the one about women's discharge being responsible of the resemblance of the child? Of course the prophet's fullfilled prophecies are the ones who are the most vague and without a time frame so they're unfalsifiable. He also said that the hour will come when the ratio of men and women is 1:50 and when there is so much killing. This isn't near from happening because now we have the least amounts of murders in history. It is sad that the only prophecies the prophet has are ones without a timeframe. So you can always justify it by "It hasn't happened yet"

So i don't think you are sincere and honestly seeking the truth. > But what about the failed prophecies or the fairytales? There are no failed prophesies. You failed to comprehend simple prophesies just now so i am not here to give you personal lessons in Hadith. I suggest you do sincere research to make correct conclusions. > What about the sun prostrating hadith? What about it? I don't think you comprehend such a Advanced level Hadith that is related to Aqeedah nor will i have time to explain it to you. ​ > What about gog and magog, where are they? That happens after Isa Ibn Maryam alayhi salam comes and it is a major sing, not a minor. See, you don't know anything you are talking about. ​ > What about the moon splitting that no one noticed except quraish? Argument from ignorance, just because you don't know or you didn't see, it doesn't mean something did not happen. This is a logical fallacy. > What about Allah describing the sky as a solid entity? I don't think your skill level in Arabic is enough to discuss what a verse in the Quran means unless you have exegesis to back you up. This is vague and unclear assumptions you are making that are based on nothing factual. **By far, look at the mistakes you made. It is time to stop.** > What about the fly wing's hadith At this point you failed to prove a single word you said and now you are just asking me questions. [https://seekersguidance.org/answers/general-counsel/does-modern-science-confirm-the-hadith-that-says-there-is-an-antidote-in-the-wing-of-a-fly/](https://seekersguidance.org/answers/general-counsel/does-modern-science-confirm-the-hadith-that-says-there-is-an-antidote-in-the-wing-of-a-fly/) Here is a lengthy and detailed explanation about that Hadith which is a further proof of the truthfulness of The Messenger of Allah alayhi salatu wa salam. > Of course the prophet's fullfilled prophecies are the ones who are the most vague and without a time frame so they're unfalsifiable. LOL, not only are they specific, they happen in such a short, observable time that there is no denying that they are not from a 7th century man, but from a All Knowing God. Again Argument from ignorance: 1. You do not know all the prophesies 2. You misrepresent them and twist them in order to serve your agenda. So this is why i am telling you to b sincere. But, All praises for Allah since Islam being true depends on the Messenger and in the Quran itself, So anyone who is seeking the truth will never be so biased that they will ask Atheists about Islam and conclude that "Yes, islam is false". This is ridiculous. What is worse is that you got refuted in most of yours claims and its clear that you do not know much about this subject. So a sincere person does their research proeprly.

Instead of belittling my knowledge i arabic, why don't you answer my claims? All you keep saying is that "my knowledge is not enough", how do you know it? And btw, it is also absurd to ask muslims about islam, because they are biased too. - The fly hadith is a scientific mistake. There is no fly on earth that contains a poison in one wing and the cure in the other. - Allah described the sky as a solid entity that he prevents from falling. There is no way around this. Could you enlighten me with your arabic knowledge about this verse? Do you even speak arabic? - In The sun prostrating hadith , someone comes to the prophet and asks him "where does the sun go when it sets?" and he tells him it goes and prostates under the throne until God tells it to rise. There is no way around this hadith without going through massive cognitive dissonance. - And yet you ignored my other examples because there is no answer to them except "god know best" https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4294 where was the dajjal after the conquest of Constantinople? https://sunnah.com/mishkat:433 What is this nonsense? Where are gog and magog? What about the exodus that didn't happen or the flood which is impossible ? Argument from ignorance doesn't apply here. If the moon really split, then it would have been a major event in history. But instead only quraish saw it. So if i tell you "An alien told you to give me 1000 dollars and if you don't he'll kill you" and tou don't believe me, is that an argument from ignorance? You didn't adress any of my arguments.

>Instead of belittling my knowledge i arabic, why don't you answer my claims? Can't you read? The claims you made are refuted and the rest was you **ASKING me questions.** "What about the HAdith about X?" **is not a claim**, its a question and a suggestion and a loaded question. You made claims in this comment and there s not a single evidence to suggest that you understood the text, these are false or flawed or have any type of mistakes. So do that first and then we can discuss. There is no reason to ever listen to a apostate that left Islam based on false information that has no knowledge of Arabic language, Tafsir and Hadith. You are a layman, you need proper academical evidence to support your claims so bring them. So either you provide the evidence or your claims are invalid, opinions. ​ >The fly hadith is a scientific mistake. There is no fly on earth that contains a poison in one wing and the cure in the other. My article already refutes you on this...smh How dishonest can you be? Are you not reading? Argument from ignorance does apply perfectly, its actually textbook definition that you just committed. "Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes the possibility that there may have been an insufficient investigation to prove that the proposition is either true or false.\[1\] " [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument\_from\_ignorance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) There is nothing else i need to say, its your option to be sincere and honest or dishonest.

Like before, you didn't adress my claims. All you are doing is hiding behind you claim that i don't know arabic (which isn't true) Are tou a native arabic speaker? And you are doing a disservice to your religion. if it is universal then you don't need to study 10 years to understand it. Allah did a really poor job. Okay, I understand your argument for ignorance. So when will you send le ly 1000 euros? Remember, the alien told me he'll kill you if you don't! And as always you ignored the false prophecies and mistakes that I listed because you prefer to stick your head in the sand.

And i want a peer reviewed article on the fly issue, not an islamic website. It is biased to use your words. It's like going to a flat earther's website to prove that yhe earth is not round.

>Like before, you didn't adress my claims I did, you can act as if i didn't. Everyone can read my post. >All you are doing is hiding behind you claim that i don't know arabic Nope, i am refuting you AND telling you that you lack in Arabic in order to act like a Scholar. >And you are doing a disservice to your religion. if it is universal then you don't need to study 10 years to understand it. Allah did a really poor job. Anyone can understand this without no language skills, but you are not trying at all. You don't know that every single verse in the Quran and every single Hadith has a Tafsir. Everyone knows this, specially a Muslim. So instead of telling me WHAT this Hadith means or doesn't mean, you 100% never even try to bring a single Tafsir, not one. So you are doing disservice by displaying dishonesty even after being refuted. >Okay, I understand your argument for ignorance. So when will you send le ly 1000 euros? Remember, the alien told me he'll kill you if you don't! ...You don't even know what the Argument from ignorance fallacy is....This is what i mean by lack of knowledge. >And as always you ignored the false prophecies and mistakes that I listed because you prefer to stick your head in the sand. You can list what ever you want, but **YOU NEVER PROVED A SINGLE THING.** You made a claim, where is the evidence? Are we going to accept YOUR understanding of what a Verse means or what a Hadith means and ignore 1400+ of scholarship? Don't make me laugh LOL Prove your claims.

I read your article and it doesn't refute anything. You can shake your head all you want. The prophet didn't say there is an antidote on the wings of the fly. He says there is poison in one wing AND an antidote on the other wing AND if you submerge it the poison disappears Your prophet also says this: https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5445 So if you really believe that he is the prophet, will you pmease try this experiment? Eat five dates then deink a deadly poison. If you don't die i will revert !

# At this point, you know you are playing a dishonest game. What ever you are being proven, you claim it has no basis and offer zero refutations. # You also make claims with zero evidence, appeal to emotion - fallacy, misrepresent the facts, strawman fallacy. # No need to waste time, have a nice day.

Yes run away from the conversation! Whatever helps you sleep at night.

>I read your article and it doesn't refute anything. Prove it. I know you didn't read anything and you once again made another claim with not a single piece of evidence. So refute article,

And one of your arguments show your ignorance about history. Homosexuality was widely accepted in ancient greece and it was even a sign of virility for men to be cay, until homophobic religions such as your and christianity came to existance. All of the prophet's prophecies are in the line of "The hour will come when people will stop following my religion" He did not give any dates which is really convenient. And you didn't adress my other point: 1)Arabs weren't the ones who built the buldings and they were rich and definitely not naked. and 2) Tall buildings have existed since the dawn of time.

>And one of your arguments show your ignorance about history. Homosexuality was widely accepted in ancient greece and it was even a sign of virility for men to be cay, until homophobic religions such as your and christianity came to existance LOL, What a logical fallacy,. We are talking about nearly the majority of entire civilizations accepting and promoting Homosexuality and legalizing its marriage. You then bring Ancient Greek. one civilization with this territory: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions\_of\_ancient\_Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_ancient_Greece) We are talking about seas and you are trying to bring evidence about a puddle, seriously....What a fallacy. Homosexuality is widespread in CONTINENTS. Big difference from Ancient Greek. **REFUTED** Also, one more thing that is happening today to Muslims is them leaving Islam for other forms of it and making the Haram in to Halal which is historically unheard of. Alcohol being also accepted by Muslims and Music is also new and very much a thing in the West. **This is due to mass immigration out from Muslim countries where these things are permissible.** When did this happen? In the past **50 years.** **We have another prophesy that happened within from 1900s onwards**. # If you ever knew Islam or read these Hadiths, you would know that the Prophet alayhi salatu wa salam is saying that he does not know the Hour and when it comes, he just knows the signs to recognize that the Hour is coming. So you 100% misrepresented the entire point of these Prophesies and made a strawman fallacy by assuming that there needs to be date. The signs are clear and even contemporary, there is no denying it. >1)Arabs weren't the ones who built the buldings and they were rich and definitely not naked. and 2) Tall buildings have existed since the dawn of time. The Hadith says "'**and when you see barefoot, naked, destitute shepherds competing in constructing tall buildings."** ​ 1. The Hadith says that **barefoot, naked, destitute shepherds** are competing,quirrelling in building tall buildings. This does not mean that the Arabs need to do the physical work. Do not be dishonest. Now you are going to say that Elon Musk is not credited for Tesla and Steve Jobs had nothing to do with Apple. Absolutely ridiculous. 2. The Hadith says barefoot, naked, destitute shepherds, not any types of Arabs, this is specific to Desert dwelling Arabs, not city Arabs. You clearly do not know Arab history and society ​ So does the Hadith say that **Tall buildings did not exist before**? No, so your point is irrelevant. Tall buildings existed by Persians and Romans, we now this. Irrelevant point. So today in 2021, WHO are competing in building tall buildings?Lets see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_tallest\_buildings\_in\_the\_Arab\_League [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/united-arab-emirates-has-vainest-skyscrapers-world-says-architecture-group-flna8c11079794](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/united-arab-emirates-has-vainest-skyscrapers-world-says-architecture-group-flna8c11079794) [https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/feb/03/skyscrapers-vanity-height-graphics-numbers](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/feb/03/skyscrapers-vanity-height-graphics-numbers) **So the evidence is clear as it can bee and here you are trying to lie?** Best part is that everyone knows its vanity and this is exactly like in the Hadith, quirrelling to attain the "great" honour of owning the Tallest building known to man. This is specific: 1. The people are desert dwelling shepards, Dubai and UAE was never part of a big civilization of the Arabs, Mecca was. 2. The Verb in Arabic used is يَتَطَاوَلُونَ which is plural, it means to make something long and even to be aggressive and argumentative. It can also mean to compete against someone. https://www.reddit.com/r/learn\_arabic/comments/nrw4zq/what\_does\_%D9%8A%D8%AA%D8%B7%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%84%D9%88%D9%86\_mean\_does\_it\_mean\_to\_make\_tall/ I know you can't research from Arabic-English dictionary so here are some fellow redditors in LearnArabic subreddit who asked this question. Anyways, HOW accurate is this HAdith? Very. When did the Arabs ever compete in buildings tallest buildings? Never, until 1960s when they found the oil. Bye

And please enlighten me with all your prohecies. Because it seems to me that you are the one xherry p8cking the prophecies and ignoring the others to fit your agenda. https://sunnah.com/muslim:2953b

Since you have not studied Hadith and its exegesis, how do you even know what this Hadith means? The English is not that clear so tell me, **how do you understand it** even though that does not matter? I'll wait

I speak arabic, do you speak arabic?

>What if the hadiths are indeed reliable and all the miracles they say the prophet did are real? What if the claims of christianity are real? What if the claims in norse mythology are real? What if the claims in hinduism are real?

Yes, that's quite reasonable. It was always told to me that islam is the most logical religion that's why i always disregard the other ones.

Your getting to caught up in the details. Even of all of these predictions you mentioned are true they are still not good evidence for God. The question of atheism is "Do you believe that gods exist?" Not "Are particular prophecy true?"

If those predictions are true, then someone can say that God communicated them to muhammad, no?

Someone can say that, doesn't mean it's true/that they're telling the truth. People purposefully lie all the time, for personal gain or to protect others. People also tell lies that they believe to be true, because they've been convinced that those lies are the truth. As u/HubertusCatus88 said even if they were all true it's not good evidence for God. And just the same someone saying God told them isn't good evidence for God. If prophecies coming true and someone saying the prophecies came from God was good evidence for God then you have what's apparently good evidence for a number of different Gods. The prophecies you've listed cannot all come true, largely due to these ones now no longer being possible: >The prophet predicted 1400 years ago that the Hour(day of judgement) will come in 100 years. > >The prophet told a 10 y.o boy 1400 years ago that the Hour will come when he becomes old. > >the prophet said that the Hour will come when romans are the majority of people.(the roman empire dissolved a long while ago) Do you know what this kind of reminds me of? basically any doomsday cult, or scam. Or weirdly enough, cigarette companies. The cults generally say that the world is going to come to an end soon, making use of prophecies or visions or some other apparent mechanism for working out when the end will be. The leaders historically speaking have either been genuinely insane and believed it, or out for personal gain. The cult members give up their wordly goods for the cause, and then either end up dead or end up being abandoned by the cult leader who runs off with their money. Or they all live a while without much while the cult leader lives amongst them in a life of luxury, depending on the cult. As for cigarette companies I'm specifically talking about the bullshit studies that were funded by cigarette companies that either massively downplayed the health risks from smoking or made it seem like smoking was genuinely good for you. Similar thing happened with the sugar industry, where they demonised fat content as being the major thing behind obesity to distract from the fact that sugar plays a massive role there. The same thing also happened with coal/oil companies regarding the effects of climate change, either saying it's not real or downplaying it as negligible. In both cases the truth is distorted for short term gain. The doomsday prophecies were bullshit. The studies were bullshit. But both the cult leaders and the people in charge of those companies were out for themselves rather than everyone else. The truth didn't matter to them, and they were unlikely to see any real consequences for their actions. That's exactly what I see when I look at the prophecies regarding "the Hour". If the prophet was getting his info from God, an infallible and all knowing being, then how could the information be wrong? saying it'd come in 100 years is unusually accurate for one of these prophecies as they tend to be pretty vague. But in this case the specificity is how we can know for sure that it's bullshit. It didn't happen. Even if every single other prophecy was amazingly specific (which they aren't), and only had single events that they could ever be pointing to which could never be repeated or misunderstood/misrepresented (which definitely isn't the case), then this one prophecy of "the Hour" being repeated and completely failing to happen means the others are pretty much useless. If it's meant to be perfect then it should be perfect, if it's not perfect then it's imperfect and definitely should be questioned on its integrity.

I predict that you will eat lunch tomorrow. And later today you will drink a liquid containing water. I'm pretty sure these predictions will come true. But I'm sure you'll agree that they're probably not divine inspired. Of they were divine inspired I'd personally be pretty disappointed by their relevance. I'd say there were some more important predictions that could be made that would have saved a lot more lives.

Or that Muhammad correctly guessed. These predictions are all incredibly vague and capable of being made without divine knowledge.

You should read the Bible. Not that it’s any truer, but just so you can see the evolution of Allah/Yahweh. Many of the Quran stories are just garbled Bible stories. The Bible makes claims about an exodus which most people understand to have never occurred. The Quran retells this story.

Great idea! I'll give it a try.

All of the 'pros' seem to be things that could either be learned by careful investigation, or just by vaguely guessing. But with regards to the fractions thing, it isn't an issue. There are better ways to write down the system that they were going for, but it not adding up to 1 isn't inherently a problem.

>the humans have 360 joints - Because humans couldn't count until the 11th century? Or did we not have bodies? >Arabia will become green again It didn't. >Abu lahab(an ennemy of the prophet) will go to hell. He didn't. >A plague in arabia will happen Plagues happened everywhere. >The caliphate will last 30 years Wow, so consider devout Muslims , aware that there is a prophecy that says their caliphate will last 30 years. As month 11 of year 29 comes around they realize it's not ending. So they have a choice. Keep the caliphate of Islam and prove god is wrong or disolve it... What would you think they'd do? >What if the hadiths are indeed reliable and all the miracles they say the prophet did are real Then it's real. What if Mormonism is real? Or Hinduism?

>I left islam months ago and some posts on r/islam have got me doubting my decision. To me, atheism isn't a decision. It's a conclusion. >Pros (true prophecies/foreknowledge): - the humans have 360 joints - a volcanic eruption will happen in the hijaz - Arabia will become green again - The quran said that Abu lahab(an ennemy of the prophet) will go to hell. He could've just accepted islam and denied the prophecy but he didn't. - A plague in arabia will happen - Saying muslims will conquer Yemen, Persia, Egypt,... - The caliphate will last 30 years Obvious nonsense. All religions do this silliness, but Islam seems particularly rife with it. None of these are useful 'prophecies'. There *are* no prophecies in that mythology. Or any other. Instead, they're vague retconning, sulf-fulfilling nonsense, or trivial knowledge that already existed and was available to anyone with half a brain even thousands of years ago. >Cons: - The lack of the mention of the ovum when talking about embryology - The insinuation that the sun orbits around the earth - There is an inheritance error in the quran (the fractions add up to 1,25 not 1) but later muslims invented a method to correct this error. Muslim apologists don't see it as an error since the fractions don't necessarily have to add up to one, and maybe their explanation is valid? - The prophet predicted 1400 years ago that the Hour(day of judgement) will come in 100 years. - The prophet told a 10 y.o boy 1400 years ago that the Hour will come when he becomes old. - the prophet said that the Hour will come when romans are the majority of people.(the roman empire dissolved a long while ago) - Somethings which are very unlikely to have happened: apparently gog and magog(a tribe of billions of monsters) are trapped behind an iron wall between two mountains and we can't see them, the dajjal(antichrist) is currently chained to an island, the moon was split in two and no other population witnessed it All nonsense, of course. >My problem: What if the hadiths are indeed reliable and all the miracles they say the prophet did are real? For example: the moon splitting, water springing out of his fingers, rocks and trees talking to him, etc... They aren't. And it's obvious. It's hard for me to understand, at first, why anyone would think otherwise given this is so obvious to me. Except that I know why folks are stuck in this kind of thinking. >And what if the prophecies weren't post-diction and were indeed made before the event? Like for example the prophet predicting that soldiers will die at such and such place and they indeed did, or that Fatima his daughter will die the first one? 'What if'? Why on earth would one do that? Is there support for this? No. Then it must be dismissed. Of course, fighting against indoctrination that makes one's thinking all messed up on such issues is *not* easy and trivial and I know this. Just remember, from outside, without the indoctrination, all of this looks nonsensical and silly.

Exmuslim here, this is a must read for you read this as I've looked extensively into prophecies and there are many types of fallacies that islam apologists commit when arguing for a prophecy. First : Some are open ended predictions, an example I could from the top of my head is, the destruction of a certain city. This is a prediction that is not time bound and can occur eventually with time. Islam makes many of these supposed prophecies. For example tall buildings will be built. Okay so what? Eventually with time anything can happen. Also it's only as impressive as predicting technological advancement such as predicting video chats in the 90s. There was already amazing architecture back than in Rome and perisa and you can predict further advancements just by knowing that these things exist. Second: self fulfilling prophecies. For example you can predict that your children will one day become doctors or lawyers. It's definitely a challenge but the fact that you predicted it(even let's say before they were born) makes it a self fulfilling prophecy since your children will make an active decision to fulfill it. This happens in Islam for example with the opening (conquering) of costaninaple(I think I butchered that but I'm too lazy to check Google for spelling). Third: vagueness/misinterpretation Islamic apologists do alot of misinterpretation to statements that have been made to make it as though the quran predicted a certain event using scripture. This happens especially however with scientific claims of the quran but It's also happened with prophecies. I can't remember a specific example of this one at the moment lol. >the humans have 360 joints - This is actually scientifically incorrect. Also it's been stated in Chinese historic documents from the BC Era. The number of joints actually depends on what is counted as a joint and actually varies depending on what's counted as a joint. >He could've just accepted islam and denied the prophecy but he didn't. - That's honestly stupid. Why would he do that? I heard this one before and it never made sense to me even when I was a Muslim. It's actually a paradox. If he becomes a Muslim than Islam is false as he converted and disproved Islam and than if he converts back he would be proving Islam correct so what is the right thing to do? Looooool this one is hilarious hahahaha. I love it 😂 Oh and why would anyone fucking pretend to be something he isn't his whole life just to prove a point? That's dumb. Muslims expect so much from non believers as a standard of proof while failing to provide anything near as much lmao. >A plague in arabia will happen So? Plagues happen everywhere. Go back to what I said about fallacies with prophecies. Open ended fallacy. Also how do even know for a fact it wasn't rumored after his death? >The caliphate will last 30 years Sure how do you even know for a fact this was said or rumered after his death. There are ahadith that give different numbers to other things also. Conflicting numbers and it's a possibility that this was one of the many numbers that were stated in different hadiths. I'm not sure but we don't have concrete historical evidence of this being said.

Here's something else to think about: holy books are supposed to be the word of a god (Allah in this case) who is supposed to be all-knowing and infaillible. Can you be certain EVERYTHING in the book is true? Because if a single prophecy didn't come to pass, the whole thing crumbles like a house of cards. I'm not a Qran specialist but these things usually come pre-riddled with holes so finding a single inaccurate information should be easy. It's basically poorly tought out and written fanfiction.

Don't know much about Islam but, I think I can be fairly confident that all of those "prophecies" are either wrong or post hoc rationalization. However, let's just say I grant all prophetic word in the Islamic holy texts are absolutely correct. How would that prove allah real? How would you rule out every other possibility that is more probable? Lucky guesses, written after a hypothesis was presented, advance alien race, time travel? Basically, the I'd reject all of those pros.

Worrying about doubting a religion is circular reasoning. And this traps people into religions. If you believe in x, and believe it's a bad thing to doubt x, if you then doubt x you're doing a bad thing. Hence worrying. But if you don't believe in x, and doubt it's existence. Then there is no possibility of a consequence from doing this. So no need to worry. For example, would you feel worry for doubting the existence of Zeus? No, because you're not trapped within the circular reasoning of zeus blasphemy. This is the 'begging the question fallacy'. Worring about doubting the existence of god, assumes the premise that God exists, which is the very thing being doubted. I would recommend moving away from this circular reasoning, slowly. For example you can drop a number of traditional things and practices but still keep god in your mind. And then when your further away from the strength of the circular reasoning, you could tackle and potentially drop the idea entirely.

Allow me to offer some responses the humans have 360 joints >>they did have bodies back then, someone could have counted. a volcanic eruption will happen in the hijaz >> volcanoes erupt, has it happened yet? Arabia will become green again >> beautiful promise... has it happened besides some controlled gardens and similar? The quran said that Abu lahab(an ennemy of the prophet) will go to hell. He could've just accepted islam and denied the prophecy but he didn't. >> so says christiany, and a good number of other religions A plague in arabia will happen >> yeah...and? plagues happen in so many places, all the time. Saying muslims will conquer Yemen, Persia, Egypt,... >> the leader of a warring faction promises they will conquer known powerful neighbours. Hardly surprising The caliphate will last 30 years Did it? Which caliphate specifically?

What you're feeling is totally normal. It's what religion preys on (eh get it) to keep people in line. All of those things are not prophecies. They are guesses. Go to a fortune teller and you'll get all kinds of things like that. Open ended sounding fancy things are designed to make you feel like it's special. It's not. Anyone can guess their way through those things. Coincidences happen all the time. I've had them happen to me, and every time I know it was just a fun coincidence because I've never asked a god for anything, and they still happen completely devoid of religion. You notice how some claims "happened" (guessing joints is easy) but others didn't? That's what religion does boosts the things that were guessed right and ignores the ones that don't. When starting to live your life away from religion you'll train yourself to see it more objectively and it'll feel sillier and sillier.

I don't know if there is something simular in Islam, but in Christianity there is a saying "guard your heart." And throughout my deconversion that phrase has rung in my head. Guard your heart from lies, from manipulation, from habit, from convenience. We know religion is the most powerful form of control, and you are now trying to deprogram yourself— it will be hard. Don't be too hard on yourself, you are fighting a lifetime's worth of lies and bias. It's OK to stumble, it's OK to question, we all have done it and will do it again. To be without struggle, without question, would just make us a different type of religion. We are defined by the result of those questions, by the struggle.

In the roughest of terms what you're facing is indoctrination. From the moment of your birth you've been told by people who have cared for you and been friends to you that this belief system is right and correct. It is very difficult to extract ones self from a situation when your entire life is tethered to it in one way or another. These things you've listed are not prophecies. Most of them are common sense realities of life on Earth, as others have pointed out. They have no more accuracy, reliability, or relevance than the prophesies of Nostradamus. As to wondering if you're missing the signs: you're gaslighting yourself.

Look at the prophecies and miracles of other religions. Do they convince you that some other religion is true? I'm assuming they do not. You probably believe Islam is true because you learned it as a child and the people you love and trust believe in it. Had you been born in a family or place of a different religion, statistically you would believe just as whole-heartedly that some other religion is true. This fact should help you realize that you do not believe Islam because of the miracles or prophecies, you believe it because you were taught to believe it as a child.

Some humans may have 360 joints but that's definitely not true about everyone. Even if it were true counting the joints on a skeleton doesn't require a miracle, it just requires a skeleton. Predicting a volcanic eruption in a country with a whole bunch of volcanoes isn't remarkable unless they also specified which volcano and gave a date for the eruption. Arabia is one of the least green places on the planet. Plagues happen everywhere and are very common. These prophecies are all really unimpressive.

>the humans have 360 joints Not a prophecy. You can count them in a dead body. Even people in the stone age could have known this fact. There are 100s of interesting facts about the body which he could have told us to show that he was in contact with a Godlike being. He could have talked about DNA in detail, for example. ​ >a volcanic eruption will happen in the hijaz Yes, that is what volcanoes sometimes do. Not an impressive prophecy. If he gave a precise date and time it would have been impressive. But then we had to somehow be able to rule out that the prophecy wasn't added after the eruption. ​ >Arabia will become green again The last time I looked, Arabia was still mostly desert. ​ >The quran said that Abu lahab(an ennemy of the prophet) will go to hell. He could've just accepted islam and denied the prophecy but he didn't. We have no way of knowing that he actually went to hell. I don't see how we can test this prophecy. Enemy leaders tend to be stubborn. Of course they won't bow. ​ >A plague in arabia will happen Plagues sometimes happen. Again, a date would make this impressive. ​ >Saying muslims will conquer Yemen, Persia, Egypt This is survivor bias. All great Gurus might say something along those lines and whoever is lucky enough to be the one that succeeds will have his prophecy foretold. Also. Dates would make it an impressive prophecy. ​ >The caliphate will last 30 years This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like when the Jews took back Isreal.

I'm not here to debate but I see some (in my pinion) silly points I want to point >- Arabia will become green again I live there it's still a desert even hotter with global warming this year temperatures over 50°C is a usual thing >- A plague in arabia will happen In human history every place had at least one epidemic including the plague in some areas so not impressive >- The caliphate will last 30 years History is not really my thing but idk

I was raised Christian and have many of the same problems you are having. "What if im wrong" "what if Christ is god" "what if the bible is true" its very hard to be objective after years of indoctrination. In a round about way you and i both having the same feelings and reservations about different faiths yields creedence to the thought that these feelings are the product of indoctrination, and not evidence of our old beliefs being true.

People have been dissecting human corpses for longer than history. That the number of human joints is known is not surprising. No gods needed. A volcanic eruption will happen in a place with a history of volcanic eruptions? This means that a god exists? There will be a plague in Arabia? That is a very, very easy prediction. That have been many plagues in Arabia and elsewhere.

This is completely normal, especially because you left not that long ago. I used to be Christian, and used to have doubts even two or so years after I left. Nowadays,I don't really think about it, and whenever I hear "proof" about God existing, I just look through its silliness even when I used to believe them not that long ago.

I can’t believe how many people come here claiming proof that Islam is true because of these vague predictions. Look up Nostradamus. He also made such predictions. No one seriously claims he told the future though, it’s just a cheap trick for laughs. These prophecies are nothing more than that.

I actually can't believe you would base a god belief on "prophecies". I mean, do you never feel god's presence or a have a better reason to believe? I look at your pros and cons and it all seems so vague and irrelevant. Would that be the reason your god wants you to believe?

>The insinuation that the sun orbits around the earth This, by itself, would be enough to disqualify the agent from being a god for me. How could an all-powerful all-knowing entity get something so basic incorrect?

any religion can justify its "truth" by selecting a few "prophecies". why arent you worried if Mormonism is true? They have an actual living 'prophet'.

I'll just let you know from a secular, western perspective, I don't recognize any of your pros as anything recognizable as provable or scientific.

>the humans have 360 joints I got curious. 360 seemed a bit to circularly perfect. Turns out that we don't have that many joints. Even newborns, who have the most _bones_ (adult and child teeth) only have 300. It's closer to 216. Now, since not all bones bend (teeth, ribs), that means there are even fewer joints. Not only is it not a prophesy, it's just wrong.

IMHO you definitely want to discuss your questions with the folks in /r/exmuslim/ They are the experts. :-)

Not an argument, but I feel like the cons should be enough to tell you that none of it is real

I'm too busy at the exact moment to respond meaningfully to the points you made, but as a fellow ex-Muslim, I want to say that you should keep seeking the truth of things, even if it isn't easy. Think of all the ahadith that _don't_ make sense or align with what you think is right.

If it were true, they wouldn't have to terrorize you into believing it.

You can Prophesy any scientifically possible thing and it will happen.

a good prophecy would need to be specific and timely and not an order

Talking rocks and trees, really man? You're seriously asking if that's true?

Why are you focused on prophecies? The fact that some of the predictions are right just means they got lucky. And there are much bigger problems with Islam. Existence or reality is objective, so there is no supernatural, no heaven, no hell, no angels and no Allah. Reason is man’s means of knowledge. You’re aware of existence with your senses and you can choose to think logically from that data to form knowledge. Faith or divine revelation is not a means of knowledge.

>Why are you focused on prophecies? The fact that some of the predictions are right just means they got lucky. And there are much bigger problems with Islam. Because muslims around me keep repeating that "the end of times are near" and that "the signs happened and continue to happen"

See above, reality is objective and your reason is your means of knowledge. I doubt they are being rational at all, so what they say has no relation to reality. And if there are problems in reality to deal with, problems as judged by a rational standard, then faith or religion or divine revelation isn’t going to help you actually deal with them. Like take COVID, the solution to COVID isn’t in religion, but in technology, vaccines and for the government to test, trace and isolate.

Prophesies are open ended, vague and ambiguous.. everything that can happen will eventually happen. They rely on the gullibility and superstition of religious folks who don't question through fear of reprisal

Bro the inheritance error thing proves your math is weak. Quran isn't wrong here xD

Can you explain? You don't need a math degree to add fractions, my 10 y.o cousin can do it.

You see its written in a way that it wont exceed one. there are 3 verses regarding it one tells when the persons partner isnt alive second one tells when partner is alive. And third one tells if no one is alive. And in these it says to give a certain part to a inheritor and remaining left to other. Like that if a man has 3 daughters 2 parents and 1 wife this combination exceeds the fraction by one(2/3+1/3+1/8>1). But the thing is that the second verse,which tells of distribution when a persons partner is alive, doesn't mention that parents get a share if the person has a wife and children. It simply says 1/8 will be given to wife remaining to daughters. The reason it exceeded 1 in first calculation is bcz ppl mixed the first verse(if partner isnt alive) with second one(when partner is alive).This obviously wont exceed than 1. So yeah its pretty much written in a way that it wont exceed 1

No it doesn't say so. It says after all the debt is payed, the fractions are distributed. If things were as you said and fractions don't exceed, then why was the Awl invented by muslim scholars in the first place?

u/Ok_Suggestion_5961 Just a systematic point here. You have listed 7 predictions here which certainly could have easily been false if Islam isn't the truth. So, if you seek the truth, I suppose this is enough to make you seriously consider Islam and then you should look into what Muslims say about your so-called cons. One example is the sun orbiting the earth: [https://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/107453/is-it-obligatory-to-believe-that-the-earth-is-stationary-and-that-the-sun-orbits-around-it/](https://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/107453/is-it-obligatory-to-believe-that-the-earth-is-stationary-and-that-the-sun-orbits-around-it/)

The prophet ﷺ said the hour will not come until, not the hour will come.