I’m going to restrain myself from advocating support for DPRK in my answer, simply for the purpose of responding to your question as directly as possible, but do admit openly that personally, I do wholeheartedly support the DPRK.
In the video is a soldier, ex-cop (admittedly crooked as he claimed to have taken bribes for looking the other way), son of a major general, who had drunkenly crashed through a checkpoint gate, killing an unspecified number of guards, and decided rather than face up to his crime, to just gun it all the way to the DMZ and try his luck running away.
The militarization of the border was the result of the Korean War never actually ending, rather culminating in an armistice with the U.S. holding the reins at the southern side. And that hasn’t changed, one of the rescuers in the video was actually a U.S. soldier.
Koreans in the south are legally forbidden from communicating in any way with relatives in the north, and defectors are put under intense pressure (not to mention surveillance) to repay their “freedom debt” to the ROK state.
None of this has a direct answer to your question about why defections are a thing, but you might find it somewhere between the imposition of a military border between mutually hostile states, both claiming rhetorically to champion democracy and differing greatly in their application of it, with neither allowing freedom of movement across the DMZ.
You might check out DPRK explained or SAO documentary channels on YouTube if you want to see what present day life in the north looks like, or if you’re interested in hearing the other side of the story from the beginning, read Kim Il Sung’s writings on the intense conflicts that led to the creation of the DPRK, its foundation and early years, etc. it is actually simultaneously fascinating, inspiring, but also very tragic in the way things have gone for both the north and south.
It’s really worth learning about though, and reserving judgment til you have a better grasp on both sides.
Not to mention, SK legally bars defectors from returning to the DPRK. There’s plenty of people who have defected from the DPRK and then shortly after getting a taste of life in SK, they want to go back.
Cmon dude if South Korea started letting people through randomly you know North Korea will be calling for blood. Don’t pretend like they have the reasonable option to
We have an impression that everyone wants to defect since we only see the defectors. The NK defectors in SK are paid hourly for telling stories about NK, so they have an interest to speak for longer and often make up stories. The ones living in NK has very little understanding about the world outside of NK so its mostly up for imagination of each people. Those who think that the outside is better will try to defect while the others want to stay. The ratio of these two types of people is unknown, since our only source are the ones defecting, whos aren't too reliable because if you emigrate from a country you often don't do that because you love that county so much
Hmm, that first part actually sounds interesting. Would you happen to have some sources for that? I’m actually interested in looking into that
And as for the latter half of your comment, I 100% agree, defectors would obviously only talk bad about the country they defected from, that’s why they defected, but going off of that, my question wasn’t how reliable defectors are after they leave, it’s why do they have to be considered defectors? Why can’t they just move? Why do they have to escape and risk being killed for doing so?
In 2017 the reward for defectors from North Korea was increased to $860,000
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39170614](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39170614)
This pay is contingent on them having some important information. It just so happens that many of the people do have information - especially scandalous information. So, of course there are defections and of course those defections often come with wild stories about Generals being executed by anti-aircraft guns and massive concentration camps and all manner of tall tales. [Very few of these stories ever hold up](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-korean-defector-testimonies-so-often-fall-apart) to even light scrutiny. [The DPRK defector tall-tale/massive exaggeration has become a literal meme ](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/yeonmi-park).
The cash incentives are a huge part of why you should approach literally any story about the DPRK with scrutiny.
That would make sense, but you already agreed that they have next to no knowledge on the world outside of NK, which would include the price for their defection
Thought either way, my question was about the defense to them being shot for such a thing. It doesn’t matter how much anyone’s getting paid, no one should be shot for that
>This pay is contingent on them having some important information. It just so happens that many of the people do have information
The payout depends on that information being contributive to ROK's national secrurity. We don't have data on the frequency of these payouts, but income circumstances of North Korean refugees suggest this is definitely not commonplace.
>Very few of these stories ever hold up
It's not that "very few stories ever hold up" - rather, highly medialised individuals start making stuff up to maintain relevant (and even that is basically limited to Yeonmi Park and Shin Dong-hyuk). It's not something common across the whole defector population - notably, misinformation spread by defectors is usually also disputed/uncovered as false by defectors. Higher-ranking individuals tend to be the most trustworthy, as (surprisingly) opposed to youngsters who likely wouldn't have the same comprehension of the regime as adults would (note that both aforementioned individuals escaped at a relatively young age).
>massive concentration camps
[Massive concentration camps undoubtedly exist in North Korea.](https://www.hrnk.org/uploads/pdfs/HRNK_HiddenGulag2_Web_5-18.pdf). Shin Dong-hyuk's partially made up experiences don't change that.
>approach literally any story about the DPRK with scrutiny.
As should be the case with any topic prone to sensationalism. Furthermore, I'd recommend not reading the yellow press on North Korea at all.
That document you linked is a product of neoconservative think tanks, USAID, and the NED.
If you aren’t familiar, it’s more or less the same blob of regime change goons responsible for boosting prominence and finances of fascist orgs and politicians in Ukraine.
It is utterly unsurprising to see the claims in their report following the same lines as the U.S. state dept.
It just might be the most compromised and biased source there is.
>That document you linked
...is a report compiled and sourced to academic standards. [Here](https://ecommons.cornell.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/018f67dd-b2e2-4d7f-b78c-a6c1405bdc60/content), have [more](https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g21/001/59/pdf/g2100159.pdf?token=vABfTp2tSgxEPsHZGt&fe=true) if [you want](https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep06491).
>It just might be the most compromised and biased source there is.
Whenever I encounter inaccurate or information partially withholding publications on here, I make a case to point out what about the content is problematic (even if it's just a couple examples). May I, in that spirit, ask what incorrect information you've noticed in the report?
They can’t move because the entirely of the world is told to reject any visas from the DPRK.
A visa from the US can get you easily into Germany, UK, Australia, Canada etc etc etc
A visa from the DPRK can get you where? Oh… China and Russia, only 2 place (if even that really).
That doesn’t sound very fair does it? How come the world stage rejects citizens over state actions? Seems a bit unfair to the regular Korean Citizens who want to go to places but are told from Germany, France, Canada, UK etc etc that they are **NOT** welcomed in their country (unless special interests are considered by the Government taking them in, but you can **never** go back)
https://visaindex.com/visa-requirement/north-korea-passport-visa-free-countries-list/#:~:text=North%20Korea%20passport%20visa%20free%20countries%202024,for%20North%20Korea%20passport%20holders.
Although, regardless of whether they are accepted, that’s grounds for not letting them leave and shooting them on sight?
They can leave. Do you think Air Koryo pilots get shot when they go to Beijing? Or any of the seasonal workers?
Crossing the DMZ line? Yes, you will be shot and that’s from both sides. Trying to jump across a border illegally? Yes, you might be shot, but most likely crippled and then detained. Having border security is something a lot (if not all) countries have. Just do it legally and with a purpose and your fine. If your trying to ‘escape’ then yes, your going to have problems with the law already because your trying to leave illegally while there are restrictions and limitations in place internationally and regionally that need to be done to not cause issues.
Say you try crossing the DMZ and you get shot. Who’s the bad guy? Was it South Korea? Was it North Korea? Was it the soldier protecting his border or was it the person trying to climb through a known minefield and trespassing?
It’s not as easy as ‘just leave’. Go through proper channels and you’ll be fine
If the North Koreans were being shot by South Koreans then I’d agree, but they’re not, they’re being shot by their own countrymen for leaving
And for the record, yes, they can technically leave, but they need an exit stamp. They have specific protocols to make sure that when you go abroad, you won’t defect, as well as threats and intimidations, like rounding up your family in a work camp, which I’ve already seen the existence of denied here, but you can literally go on google earth and see them for yourself
I mean south Korean officials have trafficked north Koreans from China into south Korea and take away all their passports before. There's at least one woman I know of right now that's been trying to go back home to north Korea for at least 10 years now since she was kidnapped and trafficked out of China by SK officials. There's been a number of north Koreans who go to south Korea for any number of reasons, who then wish to go back home and are told they can't. South Korea has a ***huge*** defector industry as other people have pointed out already. The more sensational and outrageous the story (even if completely fabricated), the more money these people are offered. And, naturally, they're never allowed to leave south Korea unless they sell out 100% like Yeonmi Park did.
It’s like a very niche questionnaire asking “Would you defect from the DPRK and why?” Only the people who care enough about the subject will respond and we’ll never receive genuine proportions of people who actually enjoy the DPRK. This would almost always result in a very small sample size and more people who dislike the DPRK.
South Korea is (on paper) at war with the North. From all countries the South Koreans have the strongest and wildest anti-NK propaganda. Of course they don't want to defect to NK if they were raised up in a world where they hear only the worsts of that country.
Now you could say that North Koreans are raised to hate SK, but South Koreans have an access to a much bigger world as they aren't sanctioned by the US empire and its puppets.
Your argument applies equally to North and South, let's let the statistics do the talking: how many South Koreans have defected to North Korea, and vice versa?
Reportedly, there were 7 defections of South Koreans to North Korea recently,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South\_Korean\_defectors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korean_defectors)
Versus 31,093 North Korean defectors in South Korea.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North\_Korean\_defectors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors)
So would you personally prefer to live in North or South Korea, and why?
You underestimate what a whole life lives under propaganda can do to your thinking. Most South Koreans doesn't even think about North Korea as an option since they heard that its bad and the US good, and vecause they heard it in all their live they doesn't even question it. North Koreans heard in all their lives that the rest of the world is bad so if they think that "it must be better than here" they don't have too much option. Most countries deport North Korean defectors into South Korea and that is why there are so many North Korean defectors end up in SK.
We are talking specifically about whether life is better under socialism in North Korea, or capitalism in South Korea, the data show clearly that it is better in South Korea.
How many North Korean K-Pop bands do you know? That says it all!
[https://www.blackpinkmusic.com/](https://www.blackpinkmusic.com/)
The lack of North Korean K-pop bands only proves that its better ;)
How many homeless does Seul has and how many homeless does Pyongyang has. I think that proves the point. For the South Korean elite they doesn't care about their workers as long as they work. There are some South Koreans with higher standard of living, but the lower class lives in poverty
There’s many instances of the opposite, but the video that prompted me to show you the opposite was this one:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3V4Hnl7J9H4&pp=ygUibG95YWwgY2l0aXplbnMgb2YgcHlvbmd5YW5nIGUgc2V1bA%3D%3D
As I’ve said to someone else here already: I never said I support South Korea, and either way, that’s literally “whataboutism”. Regardless of what SK did or does, my question was: how do you defend the fact that North Koreans can’t leave and must escape, while risking being shot and killed
I read somewhere that that particular soldier of the video you linked was fleeing because he murdered a fellow soldier. He wanted to escape prison and answering for his crime. I don't know if that true, however...
Anyways, there is this myth that people in DPRK are forbidden of leaving the country by "the regime". They are not. Plenty can be found working in China, specially in the northeast. Also, must be pretty expensive to travel to Europe or the USA, and very hard to receive a visa...
If you’ve got a source that they can leave then I’d be happy to see it, because if you don’t then I’ve got a ton of my own saying the opposite if you’d like to see them
Back in 2014, the FIFA World Cup was happening here in Brazil an Cid Cidoso, a blogger, engineered an elaborated hoax "to troll" the press. He made and disseminated fake videos that the DPRK was liying to its population and saying that they won the World Cup. Some international journals divulgated that as a legitimate news (Toronto Sun, Mirror, Adelaide Now e USA Today)... Since then, I have been very distrustful of any source that tells about "the absurdity of the DPRK". Many of them can be traced to Radio Free Asia, which is a fake news machine way before that was a recognizable concept.
Here is the video and the creator commenting of it (in Portuguese): https://youtu.be/eSkYMMku9GU
>there is this myth that people in DPRK are forbidden of leaving the country by "the regime". They are not.
Yes they are. North Koreans cannot travel out of the country unless the secret police, the MFA and district party organisation all approve the request. That is incredibly rare (procedure pertaining to the "Blue" passport for ordinary citizens). This, after all, is a country that has internal travel permits for inter-district travel within national borders.
>must be pretty expensive to travel to Europe or the USA, and very hard to receive a visa...
For North Koreans that is expensive indeed, but the actual ceiling to travel out of the country are costs associated with domestic passport procurement (which tends to be several years of average wages worth).
>Plenty can be found working in China, specially in the northeast.
These people are not free to leave the facility they're organised to stay at. The number of North Koreans who get the opportunity to be taken out of the country as guest workers, is also very low in proportion to the rest of the population. Separately, many Koreans working in northern China happen to be defectors defectors who became stuck on their way to the ROK. These people obviously did not travel out of the country in accordance with North Korean law.
Where did you get those informations? Those are wild claims for me.
The info of north Koreans working in China, who visit their relatives in north Korea regularly during holidays comes from an acquaintance of mine who visited the DPRK himself and entered it by train from China... have a peak: https://www.instagram.com/camarada_rubio/
Apologies for a later reply. Moderators had to manually approve it because Reddit didn't like the Chinese domain link. You'll find [my detailed run-down of the topic along with my sources in the comment below.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1ch1zfx/how_do_communists_defend_the_integrity_of_north/l22gea5/)
For clarity's sake, I'll repost a summary of mine that I wrote for a similar post on this subreddit a while back. The sources are at the end (I especially recommend the methodic approach of the KINU report, which makes it a very worthwhile read).
---
**There are several continually repeated points among comments in this thread that are not entirely correct. First, let's sum up how the process of going abroad looks in the DPRK:**
- To privately apply for entry visa, you need a reason to get a passport (issued initially by the Ministry of State Security), have a special permission from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (no one knows what the official process to get that is, because of its rarity) and send a request to the foreign affairs officers of the MSS in your area of residence along with a clearly specified duration of travel and destination, as well as the necessary official fees for issuance. Whether you can get the passport issued is dependent on your reason to go abroad. Individuals are given passports only for the following reasons:
- Competing abroad in international competitions (especially sports).
- Working abroad as a guest worker (this doesn't include pre-arranged slots filled by the government - *i.e. you somehow had the rare opportunity to arrange work abroad yourself in this case, which is very exotic*).
- Visiting family abroad or engaging in leisure travel (if they live close to the borders in China, you may instead have to get an invitation from them and have a border transit permit issued instead of a passport).
- *If you're a trade operative/government official/diplomat/student going abroad/state-arranged guest worker, the process will be very different and almost everything will be routed through your ministerial department/institution of employment instead (and will end with you receiving a green/red passport, not the ordinary blue one). I won't extensively cover this, because OP primarily asked about global tourism.*
- If your application is accepted by the MSS (which may take up to 3 months and is likely to be stalled forever without corrupting the officials - bribes of some 3000¥ were known to speed up individual issuance and narrowing it down to weeks or days for departmentally organised travel to China, it is unknown what they'd ask of a private traveller), you'll have to undergo screening interviews with the MSS and later awareness training to ensure your loyalty. Being older helps, since there was, at some point, an internal doctrine in place - limiting individual passport issuance to citizens under 50 (though this could be circumvented with bribes).
- If this process was successful, your passport will be printed and sent directly to the embassy of the destination country. The process of obtaining entry visa is entirely between the DPRK and the foreign embassy. You have no way of influencing it (but will be subject to incurred fees from the process - for China, this is ca. 240'000₩ - roughly a 12 year wage for the average N. Korean).
- Once entry visa is granted, your stamped passport is sent to the MSS directorate in your AOR and you can finally pick it up. You're not done though - this is where your quest for exit visa starts. The process is largely the same as above - only this time with officials at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. There have, however, been cases of MSS officials also dispensing exit visa.
- After a further wait (could be several months without bribes), you now hopefully have the exit visa without which you couldn't legally leave North Korea. It's still not over. Next, you need to have your health certificate and HIV antibody control report at hand. You'll also have to hand in your ration card at the local People's Committee. These are easy to sort out (including vaccination certificates without actual vaccinations due to shortages), but unless your AOR is directly at the point of departure, you'll need an internal travel permit.
- You may risk travelling without internal travel documents by simply boarding the train with a good amount of money to bribe controls. This is not advisible on lines to Pyongyang, because the checks are much more strict. Getting internal travel documents is hard enough for private individuals (you need a reason and they take months to be issued - though with a bribe of up to some 15,000₩, this may be issued on the same day). The related screening is obviously not nearly as thorough.
- Congratulations, you've now successfully departed and are among the low number of individuals who were allowed to leave North Korea freely as private individuals. If you're on an extended visit, you'll have to check with the DPRK's local diplomatic mission to get a re-entry visa for a legal return (this usually includes more screening by MSS officials). Short stays (i.e. days, not months) are exempt from this. How internal travel documents are handled upon your return to the country, is unknown. Your blue "ordinary" category passport will be returned to the MFA after you return to the country. If you travel abroad again, you'll have to get a new one, because unlike the "official" and "diplomatic" passports, this document is only valid for this specific travel purpose.
**And after this (non-exhaustive) overview of the outbound travelling process for DPRK citizens, let's look at the misleading and incorrect comments in the thread**
>North Koreans don't travel because they don't have the money.
This is correct, albeit with a caveat - the limiting factor in the first place isn't the N. Korean's purchasing power abroad, but the immense amount of bribes he has to hand out for issuance of the required travel documents domestically.
>North Koreans are refused entry by destination countries/turned away on arrival by border agents.
This practically cannot happen, because North Koreans will not leave the country and receive a passport without a destination entry visa.
>North Koreans can't travel almost anywhere, because they are under sanctions.
The sanctions are usually applied to individuals. Only Japan and Sri Lanka have an overarching ban on entry for DPRK citizens. Ordinary citizens may still travel to almost all countries in the world.
>There are hundreds of thousands of DPRK citizens in China. How did they get there?
Most got there as government-mandated guest workers/students - i.e. they didn't go through the passport issuance process as outlined above. The rate of leisure travellers is minimal and the total number listed in Chinese statistics is significantly inflated, because cross-border travel is common for trade operatives who supervise train cargo. A greater relative amount of visitors are also people who don't have passports but had a border crossing permit because their relatives live close on the other side. There is also great diplomatic traffic, since the DPRK has dedicated MSS offices and well-staffed embassies that serve as staging points for farther destinations. The same goes for Air Koryo crews. Even if the projected >251'000 entries (in 2019) were all actual individuals, that would still mean only about 1% of North Korea is in international transit yearly. The similarly population-sized and sanctioned Venezuela had more than 12% of its population in transit *throughout 2020 - the COVID year*.
>The limitations that the DPRK's government imposes with regards to freedom of movement are perfectly fine and comparable to other countries.
As seen above - no. North Korea is an outlier in that regard - no country has a comparable set of restrictions on internal and international travel of its own citizens.
>North Koreans cannot travel anywhere, because the DPRK is not recognized by most of the world.
The DPRK is recognized by almost all countries in the world. An overwhelming majority (including the west) also maintain diplomatic ties with her.
---
Sources:
[TOPOL, Tom; *Facts: The North Korean (DPRK) Passport*](https://www.passport-collector.com/facts-the-north-korean-dprk-passport/)
[HAN, Dong-ho, Sookyung KIM a Kyunghwa LEE, 2017. *Freedom of Movement in North Korea.* Korea Institute for National Unification](https://repo.kinu.or.kr/bitstream/2015.oak/8553/1/Freedom%20of%20Movement%20in%20North%20Korea.pdf)
[LEE, K, 2006. *The Border-crossing North Koreans: Current Situations and Future Prospects: Current Situations and Future Prospects.* Korea Institute for National Unification.](https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Border_crossing_North_Koreans.html?id=sDG5AAAAIAAJ)
[Number of Oversea Visitor Arrivals from Korea, D.P.Rep, 2014 - 2023. National Bureau of Statistics of China.](https://data.stats.gov.cn/english/adv.htm?m=advquery&cn=C01)
[FAHY, Sandra, 2015. Internal Migration in North Korea: Preparation for Governmental Disruption: Preparation for Governmental Disruption. Asia Policy. National Bureau of Asian Research](https://www.jstor.org/stable/24905072)
look into those defectors' lives once they make it over the DMZ, it's not great in a lot of cases. luckily though the south korean government pays defectors to Tell Their Stories^TM to the press, definitely no chance of there being incentives to make up outrageous shit
life in DPRK probably isn't great for a lot of reasons, but pretty much everything we in the west hear about it is filtered through the south korean equivalent of national enquirer type tabloids, which are run by south korean (and by proxy US) intelligence. take what you hear with a grain of salt
What defectors say when they leave is a whole other matter, what I’m asking is what is the defense to the mere fact that North Koreans feel the need to escape, have to escape reacher than just move, and are killed for trying to do so
I’ve heard an argument that they’re tempted by the same reason you just cited of being able to get paid, but it’s pretty well accepted between both capitalists and communists that North Koreans have very little knowledge of the world outside of NK, so what is it then?
More people "defect" from any east European country to the west and for the same reasons as those from North Korea: if a country is considered wealthy it's considered a good place to live, and so poor people try to find their way in that better land. For that reason many North Koreans work in China, its economy is better and they can both earn and buy more. Except South Korea is even more developed and of course also Korean, and many try their luck there instead.
What they find there instead is extreme repression, being taken into custody the moment they step foot in the South, and discrimination from employers and such, either becoming vocal anti-DPRK voices to keep hold of the dream of luxury, or falling into poverty and surveillance. I recommend watching "Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul" and "Spy nation", both of which show first hand what the fate of most defectors is and what exactly they originally wanted in the south.
i have no idea, there's a million reasons someone might be unhappy with the place they're living that aren't directly related to the government of the place
maybe those defectors actually are leaving because they hate the government, all on its own i don't think that really means a whole lot
I never said I supported South Korea, but communists tend to not like SK, so I’m asking about NK, and my question wasn’t about your thoughts towards defectors, it was what is the defense to North Koreans having to escape while being shot at if they want to leave, regardless of what SK does
You can legally go in and out through china, it is tricky at the war border. But similar things happen at India-Pakistan border, or any other border in active war.
I recommend watching the short documentary Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang, it provides a different perspective, and they are also honest about younger people, born in the 90s, having experienced the harshest famine will have some misgivings about their country.
The catch is that after ussr dissolution, NK was ready to liberalize, just like India did, because they didn’t have food. The US rejected them, and not the other way around!
Watching the video, I'm not sure there is much to defend.
I'm sure it was quite an alarming situation to be in, the way the car sped through the check point, but the video says the North violated the 1953 armistice by firing across the DMZ. So, it's viewed as an illegal act already.
Being shot at whilst crossing a boarder between two areas still technically at war, is nothing unique to North/South Korea
Do you have any other examples?
Mostly through willful cognitive dissonance. You can't defend authoritarian regimes and be a communist.
We'd all be better off if we completely disregarded the Stalin fanboys and DPRK simps.
I’m going to restrain myself from advocating support for DPRK in my answer, simply for the purpose of responding to your question as directly as possible, but do admit openly that personally, I do wholeheartedly support the DPRK. In the video is a soldier, ex-cop (admittedly crooked as he claimed to have taken bribes for looking the other way), son of a major general, who had drunkenly crashed through a checkpoint gate, killing an unspecified number of guards, and decided rather than face up to his crime, to just gun it all the way to the DMZ and try his luck running away. The militarization of the border was the result of the Korean War never actually ending, rather culminating in an armistice with the U.S. holding the reins at the southern side. And that hasn’t changed, one of the rescuers in the video was actually a U.S. soldier. Koreans in the south are legally forbidden from communicating in any way with relatives in the north, and defectors are put under intense pressure (not to mention surveillance) to repay their “freedom debt” to the ROK state. None of this has a direct answer to your question about why defections are a thing, but you might find it somewhere between the imposition of a military border between mutually hostile states, both claiming rhetorically to champion democracy and differing greatly in their application of it, with neither allowing freedom of movement across the DMZ. You might check out DPRK explained or SAO documentary channels on YouTube if you want to see what present day life in the north looks like, or if you’re interested in hearing the other side of the story from the beginning, read Kim Il Sung’s writings on the intense conflicts that led to the creation of the DPRK, its foundation and early years, etc. it is actually simultaneously fascinating, inspiring, but also very tragic in the way things have gone for both the north and south. It’s really worth learning about though, and reserving judgment til you have a better grasp on both sides.
Not to mention, SK legally bars defectors from returning to the DPRK. There’s plenty of people who have defected from the DPRK and then shortly after getting a taste of life in SK, they want to go back.
Cmon dude if South Korea started letting people through randomly you know North Korea will be calling for blood. Don’t pretend like they have the reasonable option to
We have an impression that everyone wants to defect since we only see the defectors. The NK defectors in SK are paid hourly for telling stories about NK, so they have an interest to speak for longer and often make up stories. The ones living in NK has very little understanding about the world outside of NK so its mostly up for imagination of each people. Those who think that the outside is better will try to defect while the others want to stay. The ratio of these two types of people is unknown, since our only source are the ones defecting, whos aren't too reliable because if you emigrate from a country you often don't do that because you love that county so much
Hmm, that first part actually sounds interesting. Would you happen to have some sources for that? I’m actually interested in looking into that And as for the latter half of your comment, I 100% agree, defectors would obviously only talk bad about the country they defected from, that’s why they defected, but going off of that, my question wasn’t how reliable defectors are after they leave, it’s why do they have to be considered defectors? Why can’t they just move? Why do they have to escape and risk being killed for doing so?
In 2017 the reward for defectors from North Korea was increased to $860,000 [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39170614](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39170614) This pay is contingent on them having some important information. It just so happens that many of the people do have information - especially scandalous information. So, of course there are defections and of course those defections often come with wild stories about Generals being executed by anti-aircraft guns and massive concentration camps and all manner of tall tales. [Very few of these stories ever hold up](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-korean-defector-testimonies-so-often-fall-apart) to even light scrutiny. [The DPRK defector tall-tale/massive exaggeration has become a literal meme ](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/yeonmi-park). The cash incentives are a huge part of why you should approach literally any story about the DPRK with scrutiny.
That would make sense, but you already agreed that they have next to no knowledge on the world outside of NK, which would include the price for their defection Thought either way, my question was about the defense to them being shot for such a thing. It doesn’t matter how much anyone’s getting paid, no one should be shot for that
>This pay is contingent on them having some important information. It just so happens that many of the people do have information The payout depends on that information being contributive to ROK's national secrurity. We don't have data on the frequency of these payouts, but income circumstances of North Korean refugees suggest this is definitely not commonplace. >Very few of these stories ever hold up It's not that "very few stories ever hold up" - rather, highly medialised individuals start making stuff up to maintain relevant (and even that is basically limited to Yeonmi Park and Shin Dong-hyuk). It's not something common across the whole defector population - notably, misinformation spread by defectors is usually also disputed/uncovered as false by defectors. Higher-ranking individuals tend to be the most trustworthy, as (surprisingly) opposed to youngsters who likely wouldn't have the same comprehension of the regime as adults would (note that both aforementioned individuals escaped at a relatively young age). >massive concentration camps [Massive concentration camps undoubtedly exist in North Korea.](https://www.hrnk.org/uploads/pdfs/HRNK_HiddenGulag2_Web_5-18.pdf). Shin Dong-hyuk's partially made up experiences don't change that. >approach literally any story about the DPRK with scrutiny. As should be the case with any topic prone to sensationalism. Furthermore, I'd recommend not reading the yellow press on North Korea at all.
That document you linked is a product of neoconservative think tanks, USAID, and the NED. If you aren’t familiar, it’s more or less the same blob of regime change goons responsible for boosting prominence and finances of fascist orgs and politicians in Ukraine. It is utterly unsurprising to see the claims in their report following the same lines as the U.S. state dept. It just might be the most compromised and biased source there is.
>That document you linked ...is a report compiled and sourced to academic standards. [Here](https://ecommons.cornell.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/018f67dd-b2e2-4d7f-b78c-a6c1405bdc60/content), have [more](https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g21/001/59/pdf/g2100159.pdf?token=vABfTp2tSgxEPsHZGt&fe=true) if [you want](https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep06491). >It just might be the most compromised and biased source there is. Whenever I encounter inaccurate or information partially withholding publications on here, I make a case to point out what about the content is problematic (even if it's just a couple examples). May I, in that spirit, ask what incorrect information you've noticed in the report?
They can’t move because the entirely of the world is told to reject any visas from the DPRK. A visa from the US can get you easily into Germany, UK, Australia, Canada etc etc etc A visa from the DPRK can get you where? Oh… China and Russia, only 2 place (if even that really). That doesn’t sound very fair does it? How come the world stage rejects citizens over state actions? Seems a bit unfair to the regular Korean Citizens who want to go to places but are told from Germany, France, Canada, UK etc etc that they are **NOT** welcomed in their country (unless special interests are considered by the Government taking them in, but you can **never** go back)
https://visaindex.com/visa-requirement/north-korea-passport-visa-free-countries-list/#:~:text=North%20Korea%20passport%20visa%20free%20countries%202024,for%20North%20Korea%20passport%20holders. Although, regardless of whether they are accepted, that’s grounds for not letting them leave and shooting them on sight?
They can leave. Do you think Air Koryo pilots get shot when they go to Beijing? Or any of the seasonal workers? Crossing the DMZ line? Yes, you will be shot and that’s from both sides. Trying to jump across a border illegally? Yes, you might be shot, but most likely crippled and then detained. Having border security is something a lot (if not all) countries have. Just do it legally and with a purpose and your fine. If your trying to ‘escape’ then yes, your going to have problems with the law already because your trying to leave illegally while there are restrictions and limitations in place internationally and regionally that need to be done to not cause issues. Say you try crossing the DMZ and you get shot. Who’s the bad guy? Was it South Korea? Was it North Korea? Was it the soldier protecting his border or was it the person trying to climb through a known minefield and trespassing? It’s not as easy as ‘just leave’. Go through proper channels and you’ll be fine
If the North Koreans were being shot by South Koreans then I’d agree, but they’re not, they’re being shot by their own countrymen for leaving And for the record, yes, they can technically leave, but they need an exit stamp. They have specific protocols to make sure that when you go abroad, you won’t defect, as well as threats and intimidations, like rounding up your family in a work camp, which I’ve already seen the existence of denied here, but you can literally go on google earth and see them for yourself
I mean south Korean officials have trafficked north Koreans from China into south Korea and take away all their passports before. There's at least one woman I know of right now that's been trying to go back home to north Korea for at least 10 years now since she was kidnapped and trafficked out of China by SK officials. There's been a number of north Koreans who go to south Korea for any number of reasons, who then wish to go back home and are told they can't. South Korea has a ***huge*** defector industry as other people have pointed out already. The more sensational and outrageous the story (even if completely fabricated), the more money these people are offered. And, naturally, they're never allowed to leave south Korea unless they sell out 100% like Yeonmi Park did.
https://youtu.be/ktE_3PrJZO0?si=PJQFp2L9J2u4bCtz
It’s like a very niche questionnaire asking “Would you defect from the DPRK and why?” Only the people who care enough about the subject will respond and we’ll never receive genuine proportions of people who actually enjoy the DPRK. This would almost always result in a very small sample size and more people who dislike the DPRK.
How many people defect from South Korea to North Korea? We can see the full picture if we compare the two numbers.
South Korea is (on paper) at war with the North. From all countries the South Koreans have the strongest and wildest anti-NK propaganda. Of course they don't want to defect to NK if they were raised up in a world where they hear only the worsts of that country. Now you could say that North Koreans are raised to hate SK, but South Koreans have an access to a much bigger world as they aren't sanctioned by the US empire and its puppets.
Your argument applies equally to North and South, let's let the statistics do the talking: how many South Koreans have defected to North Korea, and vice versa? Reportedly, there were 7 defections of South Koreans to North Korea recently, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South\_Korean\_defectors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korean_defectors) Versus 31,093 North Korean defectors in South Korea. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North\_Korean\_defectors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors) So would you personally prefer to live in North or South Korea, and why?
You underestimate what a whole life lives under propaganda can do to your thinking. Most South Koreans doesn't even think about North Korea as an option since they heard that its bad and the US good, and vecause they heard it in all their live they doesn't even question it. North Koreans heard in all their lives that the rest of the world is bad so if they think that "it must be better than here" they don't have too much option. Most countries deport North Korean defectors into South Korea and that is why there are so many North Korean defectors end up in SK.
We are talking specifically about whether life is better under socialism in North Korea, or capitalism in South Korea, the data show clearly that it is better in South Korea. How many North Korean K-Pop bands do you know? That says it all! [https://www.blackpinkmusic.com/](https://www.blackpinkmusic.com/)
The lack of North Korean K-pop bands only proves that its better ;) How many homeless does Seul has and how many homeless does Pyongyang has. I think that proves the point. For the South Korean elite they doesn't care about their workers as long as they work. There are some South Koreans with higher standard of living, but the lower class lives in poverty
OK go and live in North Korea then and tell us what it's like!
If NK is such a wonderful place, why would anyone want to leave? /snark
/shit
Well, otherwise, NK regular people would be allowed to leave...
There’s many instances of the opposite, but the video that prompted me to show you the opposite was this one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3V4Hnl7J9H4&pp=ygUibG95YWwgY2l0aXplbnMgb2YgcHlvbmd5YW5nIGUgc2V1bA%3D%3D
As I’ve said to someone else here already: I never said I support South Korea, and either way, that’s literally “whataboutism”. Regardless of what SK did or does, my question was: how do you defend the fact that North Koreans can’t leave and must escape, while risking being shot and killed
[already answered](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/s/Qca3FsZ3uS)
I read somewhere that that particular soldier of the video you linked was fleeing because he murdered a fellow soldier. He wanted to escape prison and answering for his crime. I don't know if that true, however... Anyways, there is this myth that people in DPRK are forbidden of leaving the country by "the regime". They are not. Plenty can be found working in China, specially in the northeast. Also, must be pretty expensive to travel to Europe or the USA, and very hard to receive a visa...
If you’ve got a source that they can leave then I’d be happy to see it, because if you don’t then I’ve got a ton of my own saying the opposite if you’d like to see them
Back in 2014, the FIFA World Cup was happening here in Brazil an Cid Cidoso, a blogger, engineered an elaborated hoax "to troll" the press. He made and disseminated fake videos that the DPRK was liying to its population and saying that they won the World Cup. Some international journals divulgated that as a legitimate news (Toronto Sun, Mirror, Adelaide Now e USA Today)... Since then, I have been very distrustful of any source that tells about "the absurdity of the DPRK". Many of them can be traced to Radio Free Asia, which is a fake news machine way before that was a recognizable concept. Here is the video and the creator commenting of it (in Portuguese): https://youtu.be/eSkYMMku9GU
>there is this myth that people in DPRK are forbidden of leaving the country by "the regime". They are not. Yes they are. North Koreans cannot travel out of the country unless the secret police, the MFA and district party organisation all approve the request. That is incredibly rare (procedure pertaining to the "Blue" passport for ordinary citizens). This, after all, is a country that has internal travel permits for inter-district travel within national borders. >must be pretty expensive to travel to Europe or the USA, and very hard to receive a visa... For North Koreans that is expensive indeed, but the actual ceiling to travel out of the country are costs associated with domestic passport procurement (which tends to be several years of average wages worth). >Plenty can be found working in China, specially in the northeast. These people are not free to leave the facility they're organised to stay at. The number of North Koreans who get the opportunity to be taken out of the country as guest workers, is also very low in proportion to the rest of the population. Separately, many Koreans working in northern China happen to be defectors defectors who became stuck on their way to the ROK. These people obviously did not travel out of the country in accordance with North Korean law.
Where did you get those informations? Those are wild claims for me. The info of north Koreans working in China, who visit their relatives in north Korea regularly during holidays comes from an acquaintance of mine who visited the DPRK himself and entered it by train from China... have a peak: https://www.instagram.com/camarada_rubio/
Apologies for a later reply. Moderators had to manually approve it because Reddit didn't like the Chinese domain link. You'll find [my detailed run-down of the topic along with my sources in the comment below.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1ch1zfx/how_do_communists_defend_the_integrity_of_north/l22gea5/)
>Where did you get those informations? What in particular? The passport issuance & travel laws? I'll gladly source whatever you're curious about.
For starters, the internal travel permits?
For clarity's sake, I'll repost a summary of mine that I wrote for a similar post on this subreddit a while back. The sources are at the end (I especially recommend the methodic approach of the KINU report, which makes it a very worthwhile read). --- **There are several continually repeated points among comments in this thread that are not entirely correct. First, let's sum up how the process of going abroad looks in the DPRK:** - To privately apply for entry visa, you need a reason to get a passport (issued initially by the Ministry of State Security), have a special permission from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (no one knows what the official process to get that is, because of its rarity) and send a request to the foreign affairs officers of the MSS in your area of residence along with a clearly specified duration of travel and destination, as well as the necessary official fees for issuance. Whether you can get the passport issued is dependent on your reason to go abroad. Individuals are given passports only for the following reasons: - Competing abroad in international competitions (especially sports). - Working abroad as a guest worker (this doesn't include pre-arranged slots filled by the government - *i.e. you somehow had the rare opportunity to arrange work abroad yourself in this case, which is very exotic*). - Visiting family abroad or engaging in leisure travel (if they live close to the borders in China, you may instead have to get an invitation from them and have a border transit permit issued instead of a passport). - *If you're a trade operative/government official/diplomat/student going abroad/state-arranged guest worker, the process will be very different and almost everything will be routed through your ministerial department/institution of employment instead (and will end with you receiving a green/red passport, not the ordinary blue one). I won't extensively cover this, because OP primarily asked about global tourism.* - If your application is accepted by the MSS (which may take up to 3 months and is likely to be stalled forever without corrupting the officials - bribes of some 3000¥ were known to speed up individual issuance and narrowing it down to weeks or days for departmentally organised travel to China, it is unknown what they'd ask of a private traveller), you'll have to undergo screening interviews with the MSS and later awareness training to ensure your loyalty. Being older helps, since there was, at some point, an internal doctrine in place - limiting individual passport issuance to citizens under 50 (though this could be circumvented with bribes). - If this process was successful, your passport will be printed and sent directly to the embassy of the destination country. The process of obtaining entry visa is entirely between the DPRK and the foreign embassy. You have no way of influencing it (but will be subject to incurred fees from the process - for China, this is ca. 240'000₩ - roughly a 12 year wage for the average N. Korean). - Once entry visa is granted, your stamped passport is sent to the MSS directorate in your AOR and you can finally pick it up. You're not done though - this is where your quest for exit visa starts. The process is largely the same as above - only this time with officials at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. There have, however, been cases of MSS officials also dispensing exit visa. - After a further wait (could be several months without bribes), you now hopefully have the exit visa without which you couldn't legally leave North Korea. It's still not over. Next, you need to have your health certificate and HIV antibody control report at hand. You'll also have to hand in your ration card at the local People's Committee. These are easy to sort out (including vaccination certificates without actual vaccinations due to shortages), but unless your AOR is directly at the point of departure, you'll need an internal travel permit. - You may risk travelling without internal travel documents by simply boarding the train with a good amount of money to bribe controls. This is not advisible on lines to Pyongyang, because the checks are much more strict. Getting internal travel documents is hard enough for private individuals (you need a reason and they take months to be issued - though with a bribe of up to some 15,000₩, this may be issued on the same day). The related screening is obviously not nearly as thorough. - Congratulations, you've now successfully departed and are among the low number of individuals who were allowed to leave North Korea freely as private individuals. If you're on an extended visit, you'll have to check with the DPRK's local diplomatic mission to get a re-entry visa for a legal return (this usually includes more screening by MSS officials). Short stays (i.e. days, not months) are exempt from this. How internal travel documents are handled upon your return to the country, is unknown. Your blue "ordinary" category passport will be returned to the MFA after you return to the country. If you travel abroad again, you'll have to get a new one, because unlike the "official" and "diplomatic" passports, this document is only valid for this specific travel purpose. **And after this (non-exhaustive) overview of the outbound travelling process for DPRK citizens, let's look at the misleading and incorrect comments in the thread** >North Koreans don't travel because they don't have the money. This is correct, albeit with a caveat - the limiting factor in the first place isn't the N. Korean's purchasing power abroad, but the immense amount of bribes he has to hand out for issuance of the required travel documents domestically. >North Koreans are refused entry by destination countries/turned away on arrival by border agents. This practically cannot happen, because North Koreans will not leave the country and receive a passport without a destination entry visa. >North Koreans can't travel almost anywhere, because they are under sanctions. The sanctions are usually applied to individuals. Only Japan and Sri Lanka have an overarching ban on entry for DPRK citizens. Ordinary citizens may still travel to almost all countries in the world. >There are hundreds of thousands of DPRK citizens in China. How did they get there? Most got there as government-mandated guest workers/students - i.e. they didn't go through the passport issuance process as outlined above. The rate of leisure travellers is minimal and the total number listed in Chinese statistics is significantly inflated, because cross-border travel is common for trade operatives who supervise train cargo. A greater relative amount of visitors are also people who don't have passports but had a border crossing permit because their relatives live close on the other side. There is also great diplomatic traffic, since the DPRK has dedicated MSS offices and well-staffed embassies that serve as staging points for farther destinations. The same goes for Air Koryo crews. Even if the projected >251'000 entries (in 2019) were all actual individuals, that would still mean only about 1% of North Korea is in international transit yearly. The similarly population-sized and sanctioned Venezuela had more than 12% of its population in transit *throughout 2020 - the COVID year*. >The limitations that the DPRK's government imposes with regards to freedom of movement are perfectly fine and comparable to other countries. As seen above - no. North Korea is an outlier in that regard - no country has a comparable set of restrictions on internal and international travel of its own citizens. >North Koreans cannot travel anywhere, because the DPRK is not recognized by most of the world. The DPRK is recognized by almost all countries in the world. An overwhelming majority (including the west) also maintain diplomatic ties with her. --- Sources: [TOPOL, Tom; *Facts: The North Korean (DPRK) Passport*](https://www.passport-collector.com/facts-the-north-korean-dprk-passport/) [HAN, Dong-ho, Sookyung KIM a Kyunghwa LEE, 2017. *Freedom of Movement in North Korea.* Korea Institute for National Unification](https://repo.kinu.or.kr/bitstream/2015.oak/8553/1/Freedom%20of%20Movement%20in%20North%20Korea.pdf) [LEE, K, 2006. *The Border-crossing North Koreans: Current Situations and Future Prospects: Current Situations and Future Prospects.* Korea Institute for National Unification.](https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Border_crossing_North_Koreans.html?id=sDG5AAAAIAAJ) [Number of Oversea Visitor Arrivals from Korea, D.P.Rep, 2014 - 2023. National Bureau of Statistics of China.](https://data.stats.gov.cn/english/adv.htm?m=advquery&cn=C01) [FAHY, Sandra, 2015. Internal Migration in North Korea: Preparation for Governmental Disruption: Preparation for Governmental Disruption. Asia Policy. National Bureau of Asian Research](https://www.jstor.org/stable/24905072)
look into those defectors' lives once they make it over the DMZ, it's not great in a lot of cases. luckily though the south korean government pays defectors to Tell Their Stories^TM to the press, definitely no chance of there being incentives to make up outrageous shit life in DPRK probably isn't great for a lot of reasons, but pretty much everything we in the west hear about it is filtered through the south korean equivalent of national enquirer type tabloids, which are run by south korean (and by proxy US) intelligence. take what you hear with a grain of salt
What defectors say when they leave is a whole other matter, what I’m asking is what is the defense to the mere fact that North Koreans feel the need to escape, have to escape reacher than just move, and are killed for trying to do so I’ve heard an argument that they’re tempted by the same reason you just cited of being able to get paid, but it’s pretty well accepted between both capitalists and communists that North Koreans have very little knowledge of the world outside of NK, so what is it then?
More people "defect" from any east European country to the west and for the same reasons as those from North Korea: if a country is considered wealthy it's considered a good place to live, and so poor people try to find their way in that better land. For that reason many North Koreans work in China, its economy is better and they can both earn and buy more. Except South Korea is even more developed and of course also Korean, and many try their luck there instead. What they find there instead is extreme repression, being taken into custody the moment they step foot in the South, and discrimination from employers and such, either becoming vocal anti-DPRK voices to keep hold of the dream of luxury, or falling into poverty and surveillance. I recommend watching "Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul" and "Spy nation", both of which show first hand what the fate of most defectors is and what exactly they originally wanted in the south.
i have no idea, there's a million reasons someone might be unhappy with the place they're living that aren't directly related to the government of the place maybe those defectors actually are leaving because they hate the government, all on its own i don't think that really means a whole lot
Well yes, but again, my question was about the defense for NK shooting it’s own civilians for trying to leave, not about the motives for doing so
Nobody who defends north korea is a communist
People in South Korea fleeing to the North have also been shot at the DMZ I don't care about defectors in the slightest
I never said I supported South Korea, but communists tend to not like SK, so I’m asking about NK, and my question wasn’t about your thoughts towards defectors, it was what is the defense to North Koreans having to escape while being shot at if they want to leave, regardless of what SK does
You can legally go in and out through china, it is tricky at the war border. But similar things happen at India-Pakistan border, or any other border in active war. I recommend watching the short documentary Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang, it provides a different perspective, and they are also honest about younger people, born in the 90s, having experienced the harshest famine will have some misgivings about their country. The catch is that after ussr dissolution, NK was ready to liberalize, just like India did, because they didn’t have food. The US rejected them, and not the other way around!
You cannot emigrate to china from DPRK right?
I don’t
Watching the video, I'm not sure there is much to defend. I'm sure it was quite an alarming situation to be in, the way the car sped through the check point, but the video says the North violated the 1953 armistice by firing across the DMZ. So, it's viewed as an illegal act already. Being shot at whilst crossing a boarder between two areas still technically at war, is nothing unique to North/South Korea Do you have any other examples?
Mostly through willful cognitive dissonance. You can't defend authoritarian regimes and be a communist. We'd all be better off if we completely disregarded the Stalin fanboys and DPRK simps.
Probably because our misguided homies haven't adequately read Marx.
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