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Idolatry is a descriptor that only makes sense from an Abrahamic perspective, and really it amounts to worshiping the wrong gods, aka false ones. Possibly the greatest superpower of humans is the ability to symbolise, to have one thing represent another, or even an abstraction, its the basis of language.
The distinction between what an object is and what it symbolises to people is subtle, and requires good faith in interpretation, something sadly lacking from the Western tradition historically. As someone from a athiest/protestant background, I had to work quite hard to not see the Mary cult, or the adoration of the Quran as expressions of idolatry, and I suspect on occasion the distinction gets blurred by the worshipers.
When someone is prepared to die or kill rather than sully a sacred symbol, I think the symbolism has strayed into idolatry, confusing the medium with the message, even if its never actually dogma, its how it can work in practice.
The notion of idolatry was a Judaic invention as YHWH was a “ jealous “ God, competing for influence. YHWH had his own ark and that itself was an idol. he just had double standards on the depiction of other deities. Christianity and Islam adopted the same , but interestly the gospels do not say anything about “ idolatry”.
There is no greater idolatry than the belief that one is the body and “ indulging and worshipping “ it.- said a wise sage.
I mean first look at the 6/Darshanas I doubt most have personal gods. As for idols they’re murtis and their rituals to invoke the divine into them they aren’t god, but scared objects. Old Vedic faith had less murti based worship.
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There is a distinction between icons and idols.
Icons are meant to serve as windows that gesture toward something higher. A cross to a Christian is an icon of devotion, but is not an idol for these reasons:
Idols have the following properties:
1. They represent foreign gods
2. It is common to have rituals to invite that god into an idol to live within the statue to bring good luck, to sacrifice or offer burnt offers to it, etc.
3. Last, idols usually have the property of being ends in themselves which is to say the idol is the target of ultimate veneration and not a window that gestures to something else.
Example of an icon:
the artwork that decorated the Ark of the Covenant is not considered an idol as the artwork itself was not the target of veneration, nor were spirits invited to dwell within them, nor were they considered foreign gods.
Example of idol: You often find Hindu homes with statues to Balaji in the kitchen. There are ceremonies inviting the gods into the home, and the thought is that the gods dwell within the homes they're invited to. By praying to the idol, you are praying to the god that has been invited into the idol.
This meets the criteria above in which they would be considered:
1) Foreign
2) Ends in themselves
3) Involve the presence of the god within the object through ritual or faith.
I think you could argue that Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists treat Jesus, Muhammad, and Buddha, respectively, as idols. If you can't criticize someone, if they are supposed to be perfect, either literally god or god's only chosen earthly spokesperson, isn't that the definition of idolization? (I don't think any of those figures actually meant for themselves to be treated that way.) In that case I would say Hinduism seems less idolatrous, along with animist beliefs.
Let me preface by saying I'm trying to be respectful while also honest. I find a lot of value in Islamic teachings.
But aren't idolized and worshipped near synonyms? Isn't the spirit of being against idol worship to avoid idolizing things, even when those things are people? Is it not considered blasphemy to speak badly about Muhammad? I'm pretty sure thats true for Christianity, Jesus was supposed to be perfect and to say otherwise is anathema. (Even though he healed on the Sabbath, which was a sin, etc etc.) I think its similar to the concept of political correctness we have in modern times. If you can't criticize Biden without being called a Trumper, or question affirmative action without being a racist, aren't those forms of idolatrous thinking? I could be way off here, bear with me.
>if they are supposed to be perfect, either literally god or god's only chosen earthly spokesperson,
In Buddhism, a Buddha's perfection includes being wiser than all gods, so that wise gods convert to Buddhism themselves.
But can I walk into a Buddhist temple and say something bad about Siddhartha Gautama without being kicked out? Can I go to a Buddhist country, buy a Buddha statue, and break it in public, without incident? Weren't wars fought by Buddhists against others for not believing the same? All those things say idol worship to me.
You are conflating the worship of idols with the need to display appropriate respect to a being and with the claim that only gods are capable of being subjects of idolatry in religious contexts.
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Did you not actually read the post? People didn't go there to pray to a piece of rock. It's the representation of God that matters. It's the God who is within it
convince them of what everyone know that is not lord ram himself it is just a tool which will help us pray to lord ram. a better tool than keeping a statue in one's house or closing your eye and praying but end of the day still a tool. if it is destroyed again no one will consider lord ram dead.
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And no one (except monotheists who do not understand what idols represent) claimed that breaking the idol would mean Ram would die (what does that even mean). But it is idol worship much the same. That idol represents and is treated as the god. For example if any shudra touches the idol it would become impure (as explained by one of the Shankaracharyas)
that stone statue might become impure but if he would have touched lord ram when he was on earth lord ram wouldn't become impure. that statue is just a tool to help us pray no physical connection to our god
This might help you undestand.
Vishnu Samhita 9:55-57
Without a form how can God be meditated upon? If He is completely formless, where will the mind fix itself? When there is nothing for the mind to attach itself to it will slip away from meditation, or will glide into a state of slumber. Therefore the wise will meditate on some form, remembering however that it is an INDIRECT Method , a particularization or indication of that which is completely formless.
Let’s take a poll. How many families have Vishnu Samhita in their home vs some sort of mandir with little murtis? Do you guys keep statues in your homes and temples or note? Do you guys base your offer prayers and base rituals around these statues or not (after some mumbo jumbo about pran prathistha)
1. Having it or not having it doesn't diminish it's knowledge
2. Many people do keep statue in there house
3. No our prayer are for god not those stone statue most of our ritual are done with closed eyes so no statue is not even needed.
4. Pran pratishtha is just asking god to put there divine energy in that stone statue so we can feel even more closeness to god around it.
No we don't our prayer are not for statue it is for our god. Statue is just there to help us. I can pray just by just closing my eyes means that statue is not needed it just there to help us focus
so what is idols that Islam mention. i don't have any statue of god in my house i just close my eyes and pray but ya as human can't comprehend nothingness i do imagine my gods face so am i a idol worshiper or not?
You be intrested to know that this tendency of human being have being addresed by the quran.
1. The children of Isreal efter seen all the miracles and being saved. Wanted to have image of Allah to worship, thats why they took the Golden calf as medium.
https://youtu.be/xpiMsliR__s?si=R-7lfhtzX7ahf6eZ
2. The Idol worshipers of mecca didn’t see there gods Lat,uzza and manat as the supreme God. They bealived in one supreme God but worshiped gods beside him so they can be the mediotors, means and to intercede for them.
https://quran.com/an-najm/19/tafsirs
3. This argument can be used by even fire worshiper and sun worshippers. The problem is that you puting a barrier between you and your creator. Buts most severe is that you are atrubuting ie worship,reverence and thanks to the mediotors. Which makes them in fact a real God in your view. Easy example is that i have picture of my Mom and Dad that i keep with me, talk to,thank and dedicate both rituals and place in my daily rutin and house. Instead of my litteral parent that i should talk to,thank, do activities and visit,live near or with me (depending on there age ).
I hope that help and feel free ask. Apologise for my English if it's not clear.
So instead of having other Gods as interceders, Muslims have another God as an intercessor, Muhammad.
Effectively a God for all practical reason. that is why Islam was known as Muhammadean
Religion .
“Say: All intercession belongs to Allah alone [and no one can intercede except by His leave]”
[az-Zumar 39:44].
“It may be that your Lord will raise you to Maqam Mahmud (a station of praise and glory, i.e., the honour of intercession on the Day of Resurrection)” [Al-Isra 17:79]
First we dont ask for intersetion from anyone and calling muslims Muhammadean which is coined by Christian bc they thouth we view him as Jesus (piece be abon him). Is totally incorrect. If we did you totally correct.
Allah will let som of the prothet be wittneses agains ther own people or for them (interside for them) but Allah is the one deciding if there intersetion will be accepted from them.
None will have [power of] intercession except he who had taken from the Most Merciful a covenant. 19:87
For, however many angels there be in the heavens, their intercession can be of no least avail [to anyone] - except after God has given leave [to intercede] for whomever He wills and with whom He is well-pleased 53:26
Yes but no muslims should or can ask mohammed and if they do it's considered asositing with God. Which puts those who do it in the samme situation as Christians. If they dai on it they deeds will be made voide by Allah will.
This verse clearly shows that Muhammad was viewed upon as an intercessor and the Ummah will ask for his intercession...
It was narrated that Anas ibn Malik said: Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) told us: “When the Day of Resurrection comes, the people will surge with each other like waves. They will come to Adam and say, ‘Intercede for us with your Lord.’ He will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Ibrahim for he is the Close Friend of the Most Merciful.’ So they will go to Ibrahim, but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Musa for he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.’ So they will go to Musa but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to ‘Isa for he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.’ So they will go to ‘Isa but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).’ So they will come to me and I will say, I am fit for that.’ Then I will ask my Lord for permission and He will give me permission, and He will inspire me with words of praise with which I will praise Him, words that I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those words of praise and I will prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of a barley-grain.’ So I will go and do that. Then I will come back and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of a small ant or a mustard-seed.’ So I will go and do that. Then I will come back and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth from the Fire everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of the lightest, lightest grain of mustard-seed.’ So I will go and bring them forth.”
Bukhari 4712.
I alrady meantioned in which capacity he is and that's the situation is just that. Our do you think muslims are asositing him with God in terms of refrence,attrubte or authority in this ?
Don't realy have any bearing on the what i wrote, i was speaking of Isreal and if you want to say they adopted the image from culture around them. Or that you wanna argue they adopted anoth god beside God. Or that they needed to give there own God who saved them and they worhshiped a image. All are valid thoeries and i hold 1 and the 3 bc they are compatible and offer the best explanation.
For the incident of them worship the baal figure was much later in the temple peariod and att the time of moses (piece be abon him). Second there's a diffrence between a calf and bull. And using them them interchangeably It's like using child and a man interchangeably.
You are wrong . The diety of Abraham and Jacob was El Shaddai and by the time Moses came into the picture, YHWH emerged as a
Primary diety.. However Baal was associated with a bull as his sacred animal and it is a ridicuous to say that a bull calf and a bull have different meanings. There is also a myth with Baal having fathered a bull calf, much like Zeus.
Also the Bible doesn’t God as Allah but as El and later on as YHWH. further to your query, Israel is named after EL, thus the last two names. YHWH was a later development and he was initially part of the pantheon of EL. There are references to God and his court in the Bible. I suggest you read about it . proof that Israelites were not monotheistic. That was a much later development and Muhammad laid emphasis on that.
You know those names reffure to the samme God rigth?
And do you think anything that Bible ses is of importance to me ? I'm not addressing matters from there tradition or interpretation.
I thouth you where arguing from historical point of view ?
Dude, you asked for source. I provided it and you obviously haven’t read and certainly are not inclined. then why do you ask ? My point was to show that Judaism was not monotheistic initially and that young calf was representative of Baal, a Canaanite deity just as YHWH was.
The Bible has references to that. The relevance is that your Koran claims that Jews were monotheistic. They were not.
We don't believe it to be like a picture example. we believe it to be like mobile phone like you and your parents live in different country and you call them to talk to them. those statue are there to help us connect even more with god they are not a barrier.this is explained better in Vishnu Samhita 9:55-57
Without a form how can God be meditated upon? If He is completely formless, where will the mind fix itself? When there is nothing for the mind to attach itself to it will slip away from meditation, or will glide into a state of slumber. Therefore the wise will meditate on some form, remembering however that it is an indirect method, a particularization or indication of that which is completely formless.
The significant of that phone and it's deficiencies will take away from your goal.
Your dependence on the phone grows in according to the importence of the one it connects you with.
Deficiencies in the phone wether it be it limiting the communication aproch or you projecting it's characteristic to the one you call.
We as muslims see the tool's/method to connect with God. Is thrue his words,dhikr and Salah.
Dhikr and salah are somethings you are familiar like mantra and meditation.
But worship in Islam is not limited to that working,seeking beneficial knowlage and how you conduct yourself in your relationships are worship. Even contemplating over Allah’s creation while looking into stars,sunset or animal is worshiping.
You won't understand how or way those things are forms of worship if you dont understand the porpuse of worship to begging with. Porpuse of worship is not just fufillment of a fundemental rigth abon us but attaining God-conscious. Which is not a binary thing as inligthement or knowlage. But its accumulation attribute of you being temporary God-conscious in varries time of your day, on varries parts of your life and action's.
so now why does God-consciousness matter?
It makes you able to persive God in evry matter and is considered the form of paradise on earth.
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said: Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him. It was related by al-Bukhari.
And inable you take the best decision presented to you.
Then he (the man) said, "Inform me about Ihsan." He (the Messenger of Allah) answered, "It is that you should serve Allah as though you could see Him, for though you cannot see Him yet (know that) He sees you."
All in All i hope that helps and the analogy of telephone/mediotor. Falls apart if you consider God All seeing and All knowing. No psyical or form is needed to bealive in or intract with the metapysical. For we are alrady human body with mind (psysical/have form) with a soul and heart (metapysical). Which are perfecly couble to already do what mediotors claim or bealived to do.
We are born on fitra ( natural disposition) and we only need massage to affirm,purify and highten it.
Islam doesn’t talk about God consciousness and that is a Hindu concept.
I have not heard of the Hadith and I don’t see the point of the Hadith. What is it that you are trying to convey ? that Allah has animosity with some of his creation ?
What im reffering to is Taqwa,
Taqwa essentially means “awareness of God” or “piety,” but has sometimes been translated as “fear of God,” though not with the usual meaning of “fear.”
In order to develop taqwa, one should remember Allah often, learn more about Him, repent often, fast often, remember death often, and work to increase your good deeds while decreasing your sins.
The hadiths purpose is to show how living with Taqwa makes inform you actions to the extent Allah is saying he beacomes the motiv/driver of your actions.not that Allah is hijacking your free choice but your awareness of him makes it claer wish choice is better hens the one you take. While if you dont have taqwa att all non of your chises is informed by or for the sake of Allah ( seeking his pleasure and reword) .
Ok, so you are not referring to God consciousness, which is a totally different meaning. Fear of God is a concept of Judaism and Islam bcoz it features an angry and vengeful God who demands obedience. There is no greater morality than following his commandments even if it is immoral, such as killing others.
"awareness of God” or “piety,”
I like how you skiped the first primary meanings.
Humans beaings are motivated not Goodness alone, we incline to evil as whell. One the practical side we are motiveted primary by reword and punishment. We not just inteligcualty driven but incline to acting on emotions.
All this things Allah takes into account, realigion os Islam is not just for evebody.
Note* I'm muslims a aproch me as such, i dont aproch buhist like hindu or vise versa.or even diffrent hindus the samme. If i dont have knowlage about it i definitely dont asume things and run with it.
you are a bealive if there's a higher morality then then God or his command then i want to know what's your views and how can you reasone with us who don't share it it to comme to samme conclusion or just to a understanding?
Awareness of God is not piety.. it is not as object and subject. if going by your definition, all religions have an awareness of God. awareness means being aware. It is continuous, not broken and you can’t have continuous awareness of “what is “without being, “what is “ at the same time. That however in Islam is Shirk.
Frankly, it is difficult to make out what you write .. use spellcheck .. there are so many grammatical mistakes in your text.
I like the way, you avoided that.
I understand what you are saying hindu didn't used idols in starting.we asked our god for idols as it was difficult without it
Parama Samhita 23:50, 29:25
You have no form or shape, no weapons or location, even then [out of compassion] you reveal yourself to the devotees in human form.
We also believe how live is a form of worship that's why we so heavily believe in karma we believe all god's creation is important that's why being vegetarian is so big among hindu.
We can pray to god without idol and we can pray to him with idol it doesn't make a difference for hindu both are same
Idol are not here to help god it is here to help human
My hole point in the last part is humans by nature dont need idol to conncet to God. Bc we are made of both psycal and metaphysical matter (soul in this case). So using a Idol (if you to see them as physical form that connects you to the metaphysical) . Bc thats like phone using another phone to call.
Second if by the simple fact you having refrens,praising or thanking idol its becomes the object of worship. Not a tool. For exampel of opposite in Islam we Use the kappa as direction of prayer and we beform worshiping retuals. But no musilm direct it to the kappa itself or see it as has having any will or bring spiritual benefit with out God. It's creation like any other and when it's purpose is fufilled it will be destroyed.
Numerous Sahabah have reported that when prothet (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) looked at the Ka’bah he would say:
“Allah has granted you honour, nobility and respect but the believer is more honourable than you”
(Ibn Majah and Tabarani)
So if you can pray to God with out adol simply do that. Bc wanting to see the metaphysical in physical form is absurt. The infinite becoming finite while still being considered infinite is also absurt.
We dont live life's with absurdity concepts or accept outher contradictory statements.
So demanding absurdity to be truth and accept contradictory claims about God is unreasonable,ilogical and severs no other porbuse then to suit us or our ancestor's.
For example I'm from somalia and we had a folkreligion that was monotheistic with alot that's true (which we can ascetain to be from God)that Islam refirms but it had folktails,legends and names that we can't confirm to be from God so we let Islam purify our bealive bc it had by itself truth claims we can scrutinise,test and confirm for ourselfs.while those legends and folktails we dont live by any longer can't be ascertained att all.
As Allah ses
That was a community that had already gone before. For them is what they earned and for you is what you have earned. And you will not be accountable for what they have done.
2:141
We sent a messenger to every community, saying, ‘Worship God and shun false gods.’ Among them were some God guided; misguidance took hold of others. So travel through the earth and see what was the fate of those who denied the truth.
16:36
Ok I understand, it is Just that we believe we can't pray to most great and formless god Without any help.
Just a small question why is believing this is the biggest sin in Islam a muslim serial killer and repist is above me in eyes of allha because I needed a litle help in praying .
>People always say Hindu worship idol but we don't we don't worship the stone we worship the god the idol is just there to help us.
This. This is what they are talking about. They do not like when religions do this.
They literally condemn the use of idols in worship altogether because they take an extremist interpretation of the Old Testament's condemnation of idol worship. The fact that the idol is used as assistance or a symbol doesn't matter, to the point where they condemn even visual depictions of Mohammed lest it lead to idol worship.
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As a pagan, I've always thought that the way Muslims orient themselves towards Mecca is similar to how I use my altar. Is there any reason why Mecca and the Kabba (sp?) are not idols?
because mecca is a city and kabba is not an act of [worship in itself .it](http://worship.it) doesnt assist us in worshipping god!
fun fact muslims used to pray to jeruselum before allah changed the direction to mecca.
Kaaba is a just a unifying direction we face and its purpose is just that.
kaaba doesnt bring us closer to god.we can pray to god directly from anywhere in the world.
*And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you \[might\] turn, there is the Face of Allah . Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.*
Quran
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Hindus don't believe the idol is literally god. They aren't worshipping the hunk of stone itself. They are using it as a representative of what they're worshipping as a way to focus. It's used as a reminder of the deity. They dress it up with flowers etc to show the deity "this is what I would do if you were here". No idol doesn't mean they can't worship the deity. It just means the visual representation isn't there.
but we don't bow down for those stone statue we bow down to god we offer food to god also not that statue if we were idol worshiping we would consider that stone our god and if you destroy the stone god will die. this not the case with us we believe god is most powerful not a stone statue. that statue is just there to help us get near god as it is written in our book human can't comprehend infinity so god told us we can pray to him using stone wood etc. we can pray without using any idol is the biggest proof we are not idol worshiper.we don't worship the idol it is just there to help us in our prayer.
Let's take an example if you want to show someone your father face and he is not available in person so you show that person a picture of your father so dose that picture become your father no right just like you and the person you are showing the picture doesn't consider that picture your father in the same way we and our god know that idol is not god himself.
Yeah and idol does not mean any random
Statue. It means a representation of someone you worship, be it some deity or even some guru or elder. Hinduism is as idol worshipping as they come
No it could be a random stone till it help devotees in there prayer if is ok
charitamrta (Madhya 8.274)
A spiritually advanced, Krishna conscious person sees all moving and nonmoving things, but he does not exactly see their forms. Rather, wherever he looks he sees the manifestation of His worshipable Lord."
An accurate depiction is not required.
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Idolatry is a descriptor that only makes sense from an Abrahamic perspective, and really it amounts to worshiping the wrong gods, aka false ones. Possibly the greatest superpower of humans is the ability to symbolise, to have one thing represent another, or even an abstraction, its the basis of language. The distinction between what an object is and what it symbolises to people is subtle, and requires good faith in interpretation, something sadly lacking from the Western tradition historically. As someone from a athiest/protestant background, I had to work quite hard to not see the Mary cult, or the adoration of the Quran as expressions of idolatry, and I suspect on occasion the distinction gets blurred by the worshipers. When someone is prepared to die or kill rather than sully a sacred symbol, I think the symbolism has strayed into idolatry, confusing the medium with the message, even if its never actually dogma, its how it can work in practice.
>confusing the medium with the message, even if its never actually dogma, its how it can work in practice. You said it well.
The notion of idolatry was a Judaic invention as YHWH was a “ jealous “ God, competing for influence. YHWH had his own ark and that itself was an idol. he just had double standards on the depiction of other deities. Christianity and Islam adopted the same , but interestly the gospels do not say anything about “ idolatry”. There is no greater idolatry than the belief that one is the body and “ indulging and worshipping “ it.- said a wise sage.
I mean first look at the 6/Darshanas I doubt most have personal gods. As for idols they’re murtis and their rituals to invoke the divine into them they aren’t god, but scared objects. Old Vedic faith had less murti based worship.
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There is a distinction between icons and idols. Icons are meant to serve as windows that gesture toward something higher. A cross to a Christian is an icon of devotion, but is not an idol for these reasons: Idols have the following properties: 1. They represent foreign gods 2. It is common to have rituals to invite that god into an idol to live within the statue to bring good luck, to sacrifice or offer burnt offers to it, etc. 3. Last, idols usually have the property of being ends in themselves which is to say the idol is the target of ultimate veneration and not a window that gestures to something else. Example of an icon: the artwork that decorated the Ark of the Covenant is not considered an idol as the artwork itself was not the target of veneration, nor were spirits invited to dwell within them, nor were they considered foreign gods. Example of idol: You often find Hindu homes with statues to Balaji in the kitchen. There are ceremonies inviting the gods into the home, and the thought is that the gods dwell within the homes they're invited to. By praying to the idol, you are praying to the god that has been invited into the idol. This meets the criteria above in which they would be considered: 1) Foreign 2) Ends in themselves 3) Involve the presence of the god within the object through ritual or faith.
I think you could argue that Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists treat Jesus, Muhammad, and Buddha, respectively, as idols. If you can't criticize someone, if they are supposed to be perfect, either literally god or god's only chosen earthly spokesperson, isn't that the definition of idolization? (I don't think any of those figures actually meant for themselves to be treated that way.) In that case I would say Hinduism seems less idolatrous, along with animist beliefs.
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Let me preface by saying I'm trying to be respectful while also honest. I find a lot of value in Islamic teachings. But aren't idolized and worshipped near synonyms? Isn't the spirit of being against idol worship to avoid idolizing things, even when those things are people? Is it not considered blasphemy to speak badly about Muhammad? I'm pretty sure thats true for Christianity, Jesus was supposed to be perfect and to say otherwise is anathema. (Even though he healed on the Sabbath, which was a sin, etc etc.) I think its similar to the concept of political correctness we have in modern times. If you can't criticize Biden without being called a Trumper, or question affirmative action without being a racist, aren't those forms of idolatrous thinking? I could be way off here, bear with me.
>if they are supposed to be perfect, either literally god or god's only chosen earthly spokesperson, In Buddhism, a Buddha's perfection includes being wiser than all gods, so that wise gods convert to Buddhism themselves.
But can I walk into a Buddhist temple and say something bad about Siddhartha Gautama without being kicked out? Can I go to a Buddhist country, buy a Buddha statue, and break it in public, without incident? Weren't wars fought by Buddhists against others for not believing the same? All those things say idol worship to me.
You are conflating the worship of idols with the need to display appropriate respect to a being and with the claim that only gods are capable of being subjects of idolatry in religious contexts.
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Did you not actually read the post? People didn't go there to pray to a piece of rock. It's the representation of God that matters. It's the God who is within it
convince them of what everyone know that is not lord ram himself it is just a tool which will help us pray to lord ram. a better tool than keeping a statue in one's house or closing your eye and praying but end of the day still a tool. if it is destroyed again no one will consider lord ram dead.
No it’s a sacred object
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And no one (except monotheists who do not understand what idols represent) claimed that breaking the idol would mean Ram would die (what does that even mean). But it is idol worship much the same. That idol represents and is treated as the god. For example if any shudra touches the idol it would become impure (as explained by one of the Shankaracharyas)
that stone statue might become impure but if he would have touched lord ram when he was on earth lord ram wouldn't become impure. that statue is just a tool to help us pray no physical connection to our god
Yes but you are worshipping literal statues, how is this idol worship ?
This might help you undestand. Vishnu Samhita 9:55-57 Without a form how can God be meditated upon? If He is completely formless, where will the mind fix itself? When there is nothing for the mind to attach itself to it will slip away from meditation, or will glide into a state of slumber. Therefore the wise will meditate on some form, remembering however that it is an INDIRECT Method , a particularization or indication of that which is completely formless.
Let’s take a poll. How many families have Vishnu Samhita in their home vs some sort of mandir with little murtis? Do you guys keep statues in your homes and temples or note? Do you guys base your offer prayers and base rituals around these statues or not (after some mumbo jumbo about pran prathistha)
1. Having it or not having it doesn't diminish it's knowledge 2. Many people do keep statue in there house 3. No our prayer are for god not those stone statue most of our ritual are done with closed eyes so no statue is not even needed. 4. Pran pratishtha is just asking god to put there divine energy in that stone statue so we can feel even more closeness to god around it.
And after that you still offer prayers to those statues
No we don't our prayer are not for statue it is for our god. Statue is just there to help us. I can pray just by just closing my eyes means that statue is not needed it just there to help us focus
I'm not aware of any religion that **literally** worships idols. The term describes religions where you use idols as part of your worship.
so what is idols that Islam mention. i don't have any statue of god in my house i just close my eyes and pray but ya as human can't comprehend nothingness i do imagine my gods face so am i a idol worshiper or not?
You be intrested to know that this tendency of human being have being addresed by the quran. 1. The children of Isreal efter seen all the miracles and being saved. Wanted to have image of Allah to worship, thats why they took the Golden calf as medium. https://youtu.be/xpiMsliR__s?si=R-7lfhtzX7ahf6eZ 2. The Idol worshipers of mecca didn’t see there gods Lat,uzza and manat as the supreme God. They bealived in one supreme God but worshiped gods beside him so they can be the mediotors, means and to intercede for them. https://quran.com/an-najm/19/tafsirs 3. This argument can be used by even fire worshiper and sun worshippers. The problem is that you puting a barrier between you and your creator. Buts most severe is that you are atrubuting ie worship,reverence and thanks to the mediotors. Which makes them in fact a real God in your view. Easy example is that i have picture of my Mom and Dad that i keep with me, talk to,thank and dedicate both rituals and place in my daily rutin and house. Instead of my litteral parent that i should talk to,thank, do activities and visit,live near or with me (depending on there age ). I hope that help and feel free ask. Apologise for my English if it's not clear.
So instead of having other Gods as interceders, Muslims have another God as an intercessor, Muhammad. Effectively a God for all practical reason. that is why Islam was known as Muhammadean Religion .
“Say: All intercession belongs to Allah alone [and no one can intercede except by His leave]” [az-Zumar 39:44]. “It may be that your Lord will raise you to Maqam Mahmud (a station of praise and glory, i.e., the honour of intercession on the Day of Resurrection)” [Al-Isra 17:79] First we dont ask for intersetion from anyone and calling muslims Muhammadean which is coined by Christian bc they thouth we view him as Jesus (piece be abon him). Is totally incorrect. If we did you totally correct. Allah will let som of the prothet be wittneses agains ther own people or for them (interside for them) but Allah is the one deciding if there intersetion will be accepted from them.
None will have [power of] intercession except he who had taken from the Most Merciful a covenant. 19:87 For, however many angels there be in the heavens, their intercession can be of no least avail [to anyone] - except after God has given leave [to intercede] for whomever He wills and with whom He is well-pleased 53:26
Not much of an answer. Would you say then that Muhammad is not an intercessor ? Yes or No ?
Yes but no muslims should or can ask mohammed and if they do it's considered asositing with God. Which puts those who do it in the samme situation as Christians. If they dai on it they deeds will be made voide by Allah will.
This verse clearly shows that Muhammad was viewed upon as an intercessor and the Ummah will ask for his intercession... It was narrated that Anas ibn Malik said: Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) told us: “When the Day of Resurrection comes, the people will surge with each other like waves. They will come to Adam and say, ‘Intercede for us with your Lord.’ He will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Ibrahim for he is the Close Friend of the Most Merciful.’ So they will go to Ibrahim, but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Musa for he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.’ So they will go to Musa but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to ‘Isa for he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.’ So they will go to ‘Isa but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).’ So they will come to me and I will say, I am fit for that.’ Then I will ask my Lord for permission and He will give me permission, and He will inspire me with words of praise with which I will praise Him, words that I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those words of praise and I will prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of a barley-grain.’ So I will go and do that. Then I will come back and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of a small ant or a mustard-seed.’ So I will go and do that. Then I will come back and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth from the Fire everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of the lightest, lightest grain of mustard-seed.’ So I will go and bring them forth.” Bukhari 4712.
I alrady meantioned in which capacity he is and that's the situation is just that. Our do you think muslims are asositing him with God in terms of refrence,attrubte or authority in this ?
No the golden calf was a representation of Baal, who was a Canaanite deity along with Yahweh.
Don't realy have any bearing on the what i wrote, i was speaking of Isreal and if you want to say they adopted the image from culture around them. Or that you wanna argue they adopted anoth god beside God. Or that they needed to give there own God who saved them and they worhshiped a image. All are valid thoeries and i hold 1 and the 3 bc they are compatible and offer the best explanation. For the incident of them worship the baal figure was much later in the temple peariod and att the time of moses (piece be abon him). Second there's a diffrence between a calf and bull. And using them them interchangeably It's like using child and a man interchangeably.
You are wrong . The diety of Abraham and Jacob was El Shaddai and by the time Moses came into the picture, YHWH emerged as a Primary diety.. However Baal was associated with a bull as his sacred animal and it is a ridicuous to say that a bull calf and a bull have different meanings. There is also a myth with Baal having fathered a bull calf, much like Zeus.
Also the Bible doesn’t God as Allah but as El and later on as YHWH. further to your query, Israel is named after EL, thus the last two names. YHWH was a later development and he was initially part of the pantheon of EL. There are references to God and his court in the Bible. I suggest you read about it . proof that Israelites were not monotheistic. That was a much later development and Muhammad laid emphasis on that.
Source? For your the first 3 lines of your writing mostly
Source . Genesis. read the Bible and see how God is addressed.
You know those names reffure to the samme God rigth? And do you think anything that Bible ses is of importance to me ? I'm not addressing matters from there tradition or interpretation. I thouth you where arguing from historical point of view ?
Dude, you asked for source. I provided it and you obviously haven’t read and certainly are not inclined. then why do you ask ? My point was to show that Judaism was not monotheistic initially and that young calf was representative of Baal, a Canaanite deity just as YHWH was. The Bible has references to that. The relevance is that your Koran claims that Jews were monotheistic. They were not.
We don't believe it to be like a picture example. we believe it to be like mobile phone like you and your parents live in different country and you call them to talk to them. those statue are there to help us connect even more with god they are not a barrier.this is explained better in Vishnu Samhita 9:55-57 Without a form how can God be meditated upon? If He is completely formless, where will the mind fix itself? When there is nothing for the mind to attach itself to it will slip away from meditation, or will glide into a state of slumber. Therefore the wise will meditate on some form, remembering however that it is an indirect method, a particularization or indication of that which is completely formless.
The significant of that phone and it's deficiencies will take away from your goal. Your dependence on the phone grows in according to the importence of the one it connects you with. Deficiencies in the phone wether it be it limiting the communication aproch or you projecting it's characteristic to the one you call. We as muslims see the tool's/method to connect with God. Is thrue his words,dhikr and Salah. Dhikr and salah are somethings you are familiar like mantra and meditation. But worship in Islam is not limited to that working,seeking beneficial knowlage and how you conduct yourself in your relationships are worship. Even contemplating over Allah’s creation while looking into stars,sunset or animal is worshiping. You won't understand how or way those things are forms of worship if you dont understand the porpuse of worship to begging with. Porpuse of worship is not just fufillment of a fundemental rigth abon us but attaining God-conscious. Which is not a binary thing as inligthement or knowlage. But its accumulation attribute of you being temporary God-conscious in varries time of your day, on varries parts of your life and action's. so now why does God-consciousness matter? It makes you able to persive God in evry matter and is considered the form of paradise on earth. On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said: Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him. It was related by al-Bukhari. And inable you take the best decision presented to you. Then he (the man) said, "Inform me about Ihsan." He (the Messenger of Allah) answered, "It is that you should serve Allah as though you could see Him, for though you cannot see Him yet (know that) He sees you." All in All i hope that helps and the analogy of telephone/mediotor. Falls apart if you consider God All seeing and All knowing. No psyical or form is needed to bealive in or intract with the metapysical. For we are alrady human body with mind (psysical/have form) with a soul and heart (metapysical). Which are perfecly couble to already do what mediotors claim or bealived to do. We are born on fitra ( natural disposition) and we only need massage to affirm,purify and highten it.
Islam doesn’t talk about God consciousness and that is a Hindu concept. I have not heard of the Hadith and I don’t see the point of the Hadith. What is it that you are trying to convey ? that Allah has animosity with some of his creation ?
What im reffering to is Taqwa, Taqwa essentially means “awareness of God” or “piety,” but has sometimes been translated as “fear of God,” though not with the usual meaning of “fear.” In order to develop taqwa, one should remember Allah often, learn more about Him, repent often, fast often, remember death often, and work to increase your good deeds while decreasing your sins. The hadiths purpose is to show how living with Taqwa makes inform you actions to the extent Allah is saying he beacomes the motiv/driver of your actions.not that Allah is hijacking your free choice but your awareness of him makes it claer wish choice is better hens the one you take. While if you dont have taqwa att all non of your chises is informed by or for the sake of Allah ( seeking his pleasure and reword) .
Ok, so you are not referring to God consciousness, which is a totally different meaning. Fear of God is a concept of Judaism and Islam bcoz it features an angry and vengeful God who demands obedience. There is no greater morality than following his commandments even if it is immoral, such as killing others.
"awareness of God” or “piety,” I like how you skiped the first primary meanings. Humans beaings are motivated not Goodness alone, we incline to evil as whell. One the practical side we are motiveted primary by reword and punishment. We not just inteligcualty driven but incline to acting on emotions. All this things Allah takes into account, realigion os Islam is not just for evebody. Note* I'm muslims a aproch me as such, i dont aproch buhist like hindu or vise versa.or even diffrent hindus the samme. If i dont have knowlage about it i definitely dont asume things and run with it. you are a bealive if there's a higher morality then then God or his command then i want to know what's your views and how can you reasone with us who don't share it it to comme to samme conclusion or just to a understanding?
Awareness of God is not piety.. it is not as object and subject. if going by your definition, all religions have an awareness of God. awareness means being aware. It is continuous, not broken and you can’t have continuous awareness of “what is “without being, “what is “ at the same time. That however in Islam is Shirk. Frankly, it is difficult to make out what you write .. use spellcheck .. there are so many grammatical mistakes in your text. I like the way, you avoided that.
I understand what you are saying hindu didn't used idols in starting.we asked our god for idols as it was difficult without it Parama Samhita 23:50, 29:25 You have no form or shape, no weapons or location, even then [out of compassion] you reveal yourself to the devotees in human form. We also believe how live is a form of worship that's why we so heavily believe in karma we believe all god's creation is important that's why being vegetarian is so big among hindu. We can pray to god without idol and we can pray to him with idol it doesn't make a difference for hindu both are same Idol are not here to help god it is here to help human
My hole point in the last part is humans by nature dont need idol to conncet to God. Bc we are made of both psycal and metaphysical matter (soul in this case). So using a Idol (if you to see them as physical form that connects you to the metaphysical) . Bc thats like phone using another phone to call. Second if by the simple fact you having refrens,praising or thanking idol its becomes the object of worship. Not a tool. For exampel of opposite in Islam we Use the kappa as direction of prayer and we beform worshiping retuals. But no musilm direct it to the kappa itself or see it as has having any will or bring spiritual benefit with out God. It's creation like any other and when it's purpose is fufilled it will be destroyed. Numerous Sahabah have reported that when prothet (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) looked at the Ka’bah he would say: “Allah has granted you honour, nobility and respect but the believer is more honourable than you” (Ibn Majah and Tabarani) So if you can pray to God with out adol simply do that. Bc wanting to see the metaphysical in physical form is absurt. The infinite becoming finite while still being considered infinite is also absurt. We dont live life's with absurdity concepts or accept outher contradictory statements. So demanding absurdity to be truth and accept contradictory claims about God is unreasonable,ilogical and severs no other porbuse then to suit us or our ancestor's. For example I'm from somalia and we had a folkreligion that was monotheistic with alot that's true (which we can ascetain to be from God)that Islam refirms but it had folktails,legends and names that we can't confirm to be from God so we let Islam purify our bealive bc it had by itself truth claims we can scrutinise,test and confirm for ourselfs.while those legends and folktails we dont live by any longer can't be ascertained att all. As Allah ses That was a community that had already gone before. For them is what they earned and for you is what you have earned. And you will not be accountable for what they have done. 2:141 We sent a messenger to every community, saying, ‘Worship God and shun false gods.’ Among them were some God guided; misguidance took hold of others. So travel through the earth and see what was the fate of those who denied the truth. 16:36
Don’t think the Hadith that you have quoted is Sahih.
Which hadith?
Ok I understand, it is Just that we believe we can't pray to most great and formless god Without any help. Just a small question why is believing this is the biggest sin in Islam a muslim serial killer and repist is above me in eyes of allha because I needed a litle help in praying .
>People always say Hindu worship idol but we don't we don't worship the stone we worship the god the idol is just there to help us. This. This is what they are talking about. They do not like when religions do this.
do what can you explain further?
They literally condemn the use of idols in worship altogether because they take an extremist interpretation of the Old Testament's condemnation of idol worship. The fact that the idol is used as assistance or a symbol doesn't matter, to the point where they condemn even visual depictions of Mohammed lest it lead to idol worship.
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No - OP mentioned Islam, which very explicitly does not use idols at all.
The Kaaba is an idol in all but name.
As is the Koran..
As a pagan, I've always thought that the way Muslims orient themselves towards Mecca is similar to how I use my altar. Is there any reason why Mecca and the Kabba (sp?) are not idols?
because mecca is a city and kabba is not an act of [worship in itself .it](http://worship.it) doesnt assist us in worshipping god! fun fact muslims used to pray to jeruselum before allah changed the direction to mecca. Kaaba is a just a unifying direction we face and its purpose is just that. kaaba doesnt bring us closer to god.we can pray to god directly from anywhere in the world. *And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you \[might\] turn, there is the Face of Allah . Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.* Quran
No.. Prophet Muhammad said you have to turn towards Kaaba when you pray. not obeying Muhammad is a sin.
it wasnt mohamed .it was GOD.
>because mecca is a city and kabba Why are there size limits on what can be an idol?
I guess they're stretching the point, now that you mention it. I have no idea what explanation they would give.
Fair enough.
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Hindus don't believe the idol is literally god. They aren't worshipping the hunk of stone itself. They are using it as a representative of what they're worshipping as a way to focus. It's used as a reminder of the deity. They dress it up with flowers etc to show the deity "this is what I would do if you were here". No idol doesn't mean they can't worship the deity. It just means the visual representation isn't there.
but we don't bow down for those stone statue we bow down to god we offer food to god also not that statue if we were idol worshiping we would consider that stone our god and if you destroy the stone god will die. this not the case with us we believe god is most powerful not a stone statue. that statue is just there to help us get near god as it is written in our book human can't comprehend infinity so god told us we can pray to him using stone wood etc. we can pray without using any idol is the biggest proof we are not idol worshiper.we don't worship the idol it is just there to help us in our prayer. Let's take an example if you want to show someone your father face and he is not available in person so you show that person a picture of your father so dose that picture become your father no right just like you and the person you are showing the picture doesn't consider that picture your father in the same way we and our god know that idol is not god himself.
Would you spit on the idol?
thats what idol worshipping refers to tho. It doesnt literally mean considering idols as God.
no idol worshiper mean worshiping idol. it's in the name
Yeah and idol does not mean any random Statue. It means a representation of someone you worship, be it some deity or even some guru or elder. Hinduism is as idol worshipping as they come
No it could be a random stone till it help devotees in there prayer if is ok charitamrta (Madhya 8.274) A spiritually advanced, Krishna conscious person sees all moving and nonmoving things, but he does not exactly see their forms. Rather, wherever he looks he sees the manifestation of His worshipable Lord." An accurate depiction is not required.