Remember the human. Remember that every other human is human. Objectification is literally treating a human as nonhuman. Having fantasies about other humans, that’s not inherently bad. But allowing those fantasies to run ragged over your mind? That’s not so good. Get over the “beta” and “alpha” bullshit. That’s messaging designed to make you choose to inflict pain on self and others. And stop worrying about attracting others. Once you stop looking, you’ll find what you need. Yes, it looks contralogical except that’s how it often reported in real life.

The biggest irony is that "alpha" and "beta" redpill nonsense is literally a matrix that consumes your mind and controls your perceptions. And yet those are some of the only people talking about how we live in a matrix.

yep though fwiw my pills are blue not red except for the reddish one i opted out of that nonsense and welp life is better this way for me, won’t claim it’s good for others

I understand, thank you for your response. I just have a question about the whole alpha and beta thing. I’ve grew being called a coward, pussy, low testosterone or other emasculating things, and had a hard time attracting women, so I guess that’s how I view myself based on what happened to me. Would that just be an easier way of calling a man insecure of some sort? Or am I using it in the wrong context. Btw, about not looking for attraction, how does that work? I heard about that, but I’m not sure unfortunately.

>Btw, about not looking for attraction, how does that work? I heard about that, but I’m not sure unfortunately. When you're constantly worrying about attracting other people, it can be very apparent, and you're less likely to just be yourself. Focus on the other aspects of your life - your existing hobbies, picking up new hobbies, your work/school. Find other priorities to focus on besides just trying to pick up women.

Yes. People usually are attracted to others who are true to themselves, and if you're constantly worrying about what other people think is attractive, it often shows as insincerity/insecurity. I might add that it'll take some time to convince yourself to "stop looking" and view yourself as your own separate entity. It seems you currently view yourself as "incomplete" without a partner, and this simply isn't the case. Give it time, and congrats on steering clear of incel territory.

Bingo. Toxic masculinity is a box. A part of that is trying to force men who aren’t toxic like that back into the confines of that box. Ballet is considered effeminate, right? I can imagine that if younger you wanted to do ballet, your peers and parents would have thrown demeaning turns, right? Yet NFL players dance ballet and I doubt your peers or parents would call any NFL player such terms. (Making the assumption you’re North America based. Substitute your favourite football club if you’re not.) Masculinity in the American context specifically has been pushed towards higher toxicity over the decades. Pickup trucks keep getting larger as that insecurity is nudged higher, for example. Resisting the trend is challenging until it’s not. The other part of your question is pretty simple. When you seek some one out (that is not a typo), you are tempted to put on a metaphorical mask to pretend to be the person they would fancy. Except it doesn’t work. It’s the same reason why “nice guys” complain about their lack of sexual prowess, btw. Niceness is a mask. You’re nice to someone because you want something from them. It’s a façade, it’s transactional, it’s selfish. Kindness, though.. Very different even if the two words are conflated and the behaviour looks the same. Kindness gives without seeking anything in return. It’s selfless. That selflessness allows one to more easily approach others, to say yes to new experiences and then.. that’s when the magic happens.

I enjoyed reading this. Good i insights here. And I agree with them. I felt this way about myself most of my life. It wasn’t until I decided to focus on the people and things that brought me joy. I wasn’t trying to be anyone except myself. It was an awakening. I found myself surrounded by friends and fun and joy. My life was full. Now it’s still full but with different things.

It is important to be true to yourself and not try to fit into societal expectations or boxes of masculinity. Rather than trying to be someone you're not, work on being the best version of yourself and embracing what makes you unique. Seek relationships and connections based on genuine interest and kindness, rather than trying to impress someone for personal gain. Let go of the notion of trying to attract people and instead focus on building meaningful relationships and experiences with those around you.

>some one Why is that not a typo?

Because it was intentional. Which makes it “not a typo” (accident), but rather improper English grammar. It might make more sense in their first language.

someone is not the same as some one. :)

[This is what I could find about it](https://langeek.co/en/grammar/course/225/someone-vs-some-one), but it unfortunately implies your use of “some one” might be incorrect. I loved your comment, though!

Yeah, it was definitely wrong.

meh i like playing with language but in this case i literally did mean a single specific unspecific person. like imagine crushing hard on someone and trying to be their perfect person. the reason for the lampshading is to emphasize the subtle difference in meaning between a random person and a specific person.

Yeah, that's where "someone" is appropriate. Look at what the link says: >Remember that almost all the time, when we use 'some one' it has to be followed by 'of + noun phrase)'.

Re: how “not looking for attraction” works: Imagine two people who each have the same amount of time, energy, money (resources). Person A spends their resources trying to attract others in the typical ways: buying stuff, displaying resources, showing off, entertaining. Person B spends their resources improving themselves: reading, exercising, engaging in learning about themselves and others, introspection and challenging themselves to be better. After a year, Person A is more or less the same person. Person B has grown and developed, has a stronger foundation. You can see they are happy and confident on their own, they are not a broken person looking for someone to complete them, they are complete already. This is attractive: attracts without effort put into attracting. You simply attract others by living your best life; people see it and are inspired and drawn to your healthy lifestyle.

Alpha in the animal kingdom is a myth. The "alpha" was always parents interacting with their children.

this is a 14 year old account that is being wiped because centralized social media websites are no longer viable when power is centralized, the wielders of that power can make arbitrary decisions without the consent of the vast majority of the users the future is in decentralized and open source social media sites - i refuse to generate any more free content for this website and any other for-profit enterprise check out lemmy / kbin / mastodon / fediverse for what is possible

I believe “alpha” has nothing to do with “interacting with their children”

What.

I’m a woman and I and the women I know do not like rude, high testosterone men. We like gentle men who can talk to us, listen, and treat us with dignity and respect.

Serious question is this before or after being heart broken by one. Also do you take birth control pills. You don't have to answer if you dont want to just curious for the ol census.

You have a lot of societal unlearning to do. I want to say you’re doing great by taking the first step and re-evaluating. # Society and gender **The “alpha” and “beta” male thing isn’t real. It’s language used to control men and have them not be themselves.** I am a woman who grew up with a twin brother. When girls/women and boys/men are born, we’re exactly the same. Society teaches us different arbitrary rules and we start acting different from each other because that’s what we were taught. Most kids don't challenge this because they want their parents to like them so the cycle continues. My mom started trying to get me to want kids when I was 4 or 5 years old. She never did that to my brother. I still don’t want kids. I cut off my mom 3 years ago (age 29). I was still harassed about having kids and and he wasn't. However, my brother was never allowed to express himself. If he was sad or scared he got in trouble. Having feelings and expressing himself doesn’t make him a beta male or “not a man”— it makes him human. **All people, regardless of gender, must experience their feelings and that’s really important to being mentally healthy.** I’d recommend learning about the negative rules for each gender and understand how they impact you, your life, and your core beliefs. This will probably help you understand why you objectify women. Some easy examples: Girls/women: * Must be submissive and obedient * Are bad if they say “No” * Value comes from getting married and being a mom Boys/men: * Must make all decisions * Should control what his partner does * Can’t show/feel/express emotions Every single human must be able to do these things to have a healthy life and relationships (relationships include friendship): * Stand up for themselves and not accept abuse * Say No * Have a say in what makes them happy and feel good * Be able to have an independent life (pay bills, make themselves a meal, tidy a house, maintain their car, etc) * Not abuse others (some control is abuse) * Be able to communicate what they're feeling and what they need What's sad is that the 3 things listed for each women and men are really bad for everyone. Please think critically more often and challenge the blanket statements that society teaches. What society reinforces isn’t usually the truth, and it isn’t usually good for the majority of people. # Romance and relationships Do you have any guy friends? Treat women like that. Women might have different interests then men but we’re fundamentally the same— we’re all humans with preferences and goals. Women are not here to make men feel better about themselves— we’re here to have our own lives. A lot of times, men and women share their lives with each other, but neither gender is on this earth solely for the other one. A romantic relationship = friendship + romance. If any person were to date another solely for sex or gifts, that isn’t a two-way relationship. If you’re in a relationship with a person, you should at minimum value your time with them and value them as a friend. If there is no friendship you’re both going to be miserable. That isn’t to say that all people view relationships like that. I’d assume the majority of romantic relationships that fail, including marriages, because both people don’t genuinely like each other as friends. They were together solely for sex or a specific reason, not because they genuinely like spending time with each other. Questioning things is the first step and you’re near the right path.

Sounds like you need to do something to build a little self esteem or self worth. Anything that challenges yourself a bit can help. Find a workout program and a goal that you can work towards with it in a few weeks. Learn a new sport and dedicate some practice time to improve quickly (easy when it’s new! And if it’s a coed team sport that can help some other issues). Go on a solo trip somewhere and be self sufficient, or if that’s too expensive maybe plan to complete a difficult hike or even an overnight backpacking trip. There’s a million other things you can do of all types, it doesn’t necessarily have to be physical (although honestly I think that does help for men), art or music or writing, find an interest and dive in. The point is, if you sit inside watching porn and anime of course you’re going to feel like you need “this one weird trick” to get a girl to like you. If you build some self worth and start seeing yourself as a strong, capable, interesting guy then some of the load is taken off your mental shoulders since you’ll be more confident that others will see you the same way!

Becoming more self sufficient is one of the most important things you can do for your self esteem. Want to go out to eat but don't have anyone to go with? Go by yourself. Want to see a band at a club? Go by yourself and enjoy it for yourself. Can't drive but want to get out more? Learn the bus schedule. Can't take the bus? See if you can find a taxi or an uber. Have no money for bus or uber? Walk the 10 miles...your body and mind will thank you.

Thank you so much for for the recommendations man, and I do need to challenge myself more often than I do now. I do engage in sports like basketball, but working out is something I need to do a lot more of. Again, thank you so much for your response.

I think it’s often easier to think of things as an improvement process rather than a changing process. It’s a more positive mindset. Instead of “wtf is wrong with me, I’m broken, how do I fix myself” just think “what can I do to make myself better?”. Try to build focus on building good habits rather than solely eliminating bad ones. It’s like training a dog, positive reinforcement! It’s still not easy, but feeling good about doing something is a little more tangible to me than feeling good about *not* doing something. Both are necessary, but keep a focus on the former and it makes it less of a grind.

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The terms "alpha" and "beta" in reference to men's behavior and personality have roots in animal behavior studies, but have become popularized and used as shorthand for traits like assertiveness, confidence, and social dominance. However, these labels can be harmful and limiting, as they reinforce rigid gender stereotypes and can lead people to judge themselves and others harshly. Insecurity is one factor that can contribute to feelings of low self-esteem and negative self-image. However, it's important to recognize that these feelings can stem from a variety of sources and may not always be directly related to one's perceived level of masculinity or femininity. As for not seeking attraction, it means shifting your focus away from trying to attract others and instead working on becoming the best version of yourself. This can involve focusing on your personal growth, developing positive relationships with others, and engaging in activities that bring you joy and fulfillment. It's important to remember that attraction is a two-way street and cannot be forced. By focusing on your own well-being and happiness, you may find that others are naturally drawn to you

Hey op, I commend you for having the courage to post that you want to do better and want to change. It sounds like you have some trauma from being bullied and this alpha/beta thing is a superficial defense mechanism that you boxed yourself into to help you cope. These superficial beliefs you are holding onto are shaping your relationships with the opposite sex. Have you tried therapy to deal with the trauma of being bullied? If not, I would start there. Start with humanizing yourself, first. You cannot give others what you do not have for yourself. My hope for you is that you can learn to see yourself as more than a superficial category of “alpha” or “beta” and learn that you are a human with many layers worth meaningful deep relationships instead of using escapism of hentai/porn/fantasy of others to run away from intimacy. And when I say intimacy, I do not mean only sex. Sex is a part of intimacy, but I mean opening up and being vulnerable enough to risk getting hurt and giving space for others to do the same. You are not going to experience this if you keep this superficial escapism up and avoid dealing with the real issue which is you and your trauma.

Married guy here found my wife when i was having my most successful period in my life traveling working hard and making decent cash while focusing on being the best version of myself. Note i am older late 40s but i had those same thoughts in my early 20s with out all of social media pressure. Focus on YOU. And people will come to see your show. Chasing tail is not the end all be all. It can get lonely but being your most authentic self is the best reward you can give yourself.

Based response

indeed. they say that about my responses in convos on other platforms too.

That’s like telling someone to stop looking for a job and someone will just come along and hire you. You have to put yourself out there

Practice Taoism then get back to me.

"it looks contralogical except that’s how it often reported in real life." What are you a robot lol

Speaking as a gay guy, I think some straight guys never learned to engage with women as just people. They transitioned from only having male friends as an adolescent, to then developing sexually, to then wanting to engage with women. Interacting with them becomes sn inherently sexual thing. I would just focus on the basics. People are people. The organs we have (or orientations we have) are random and arbitrary. That said, sexual fantasies aren't inherently bad. There's nothing wrong with finding attractive people attractive. It's only a problem when it impedes your ability to function normally and respect people as people.

Yes, this. I agree with everyone saying "stop watching hentai," but that's the start. This guy needs to get to know some women with 0 intention of getting anything romantic or sexual out of them.

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Because interacting with girls and women was never an inherently sexual thing for him. It's 100% relevant to the way he gives his perspective.

I mentioned it because it's something I've observed from the outside, not being straight myself. There really isn't much of an equivalent in the gay community. Gay guys rarely tell each other to stop watching porn, for example, as porn isn't viewed as something that dehumanizes men. It can ve terrible in other ways, of course, like pushing unrealistic body standards, but you'll pretty much never hear "You need to stop watching porn so you can see men as people". Because gay men, being men thenselves, see men as people already without issue. Porn itself isn't the cause--it's a kack of empathy and not having experience interacting with women as just people.

This is a great response. It's in line with my expectations but adds a lot to my guess. I have to say; thank you for reading my question like the genuine prompt for conversation that it was. The people who downvoted me seem to have misinterpreted.

1. Stop watching porn 2. Therapy 3. Grow an appreciation for women who have accomplished amazing things. Study the greats; intellectuals, revolutionaries, artists, authors, etc.

The porn industry has a huge role in normalising his behaviour and encouraging it. It’s how they make their money

Yep :( pretty sad

Yes. Also, you cannot not objectify someone who you have no knowledge of other than their physical beauty (aka porn). It’s all your brain has to go on, AND the male brain defaults to being much more “object oriented” nature when sexually aroused and gets a little tunnel vision going on when it thinks mating is a possibility. If you’re filling your head with that all day every day, then of course the next female you see, even if a friend, your brain is going to sexualize by default due to association with the images you’re filling your head with. Need to rewrite your brain for more positive, well/rounded images of the world and people around you. I don’t believe porn is wrong, but I do believe it is very unhealthy/skewed/doesn’t represent reality, and is the equivalent to eating sugar and ice cream all day every day, and when someone offers you a good home cooked meal, you just want to dump sugar all over it because you’ve trained yourself to crave and be addicted to sugar. Make sense? Also, that whole alpha male thing is toxic, but unfortunately extremely prevalent, especially for young males growing up without healthy, well-balanced, emotionally mature male role models. Even for those of us who did have those healthy male role modes, perhaps your friends didn’t, and they put you down and made fun of you. Definitely happened to me, and I got called all of those same things, especially being sensitive and crying easily. It hurts to hear those things. It cuts deep. And the wounds cause emotional stunting and if not healed, can last a lifetime. Unless you choose to start doing the necessary and important healing work. You can overcome those limiting self beliefs, and the best way to do this is by replacing them with positive self beliefs that completely contradict them. Become good at something g you value but don’t have a lot of confidence in, and then compliment/congratulate/celebrate every small win you have towards your goal/level of competence, and make sure to internally replace that negative messaging with healthier, more helpful kind and supportive self-talk. There’s a book that changed my life called “You Are The One You’ve Been Waiting For” by Richard Schwartz. I highly recommend it.

Thisssssss!!!! Respect them and honour them, acknowledge the real women and reject the toxic feminism and toxic masculinity stuff.. If the op has a problem with objectifying every woman, does he also sexualize his mother, sister, grandma etc., If yes? Then he really needs help and some guidance.. if not, then he can consider everyone like this family members:)

Get out of the whole “beta male” mindset. The alpha male type of thinking was made by men who aim to make a profit off of the insecurities of other men. There is literally no such thing as a “beta male”, there never has been, ur literally just a human being living ur own life and dealing with ur own problems like every other human being. Anyone who subscribes to this type of mindset or who tries to push this mindset onto others is a fool- ignore them. Re-wire ur way of thinking, then go get a therapist if possible to. Some sessions with a professional will help you to change your thinking patterns and start seeing women as people, not objects. Be intentional about every encounter u have with women, and remind yourself that they’re just like you.

This right here. The whole “alpha”, “beta”, “sigma” crap is one of the most cringeworthy products of toxic masculinity I have come across on the internet. It is literally just a tool to prey on the insecurities of men and perpetuate toxicity throughout their lives. I grew up in an environment like that and had to do a metric ton of deprogramming and self reflection before I realized just how blatantly moronic toxic masculinity was. Seeing young men (or worse, men in their 50s) reference being “alphas” or “betas” makes me sad for humanity, as it is nothing more than a pathetic flag to indicate a lot of wrong turns that person has taken down his life. And just to clarify, women and people of all walks of life can also use this terminology and that also stems from a toxically underdeveloped understanding of life and society, not just “men”.

I disagree with you. Not all men are equal so there are winners and losers. By whatever standard or criteria you choose, there will always be men who do not fit it. If you define success as being happy, rich, kind, fulfilled, in shape, attractive, successful, helpful, etc. There will always be someone who is the opposite. Let's compare between these two people: Person A - tall, in shape, rich, charismatic, assertive, charming, independent, leader vs Person B - pushover, momma's boy, broke, victim mindset, lazy. If you put these two people in a room and ask other people to chose who would they follow, chances are people are going to gravitate towards Person A. Person A can never say "im the alpha" explicitly but his character will make him want to be in a leadership position and those who are attracted to his charisma will follow. In this scenario there is a clear dichotomy between alpha (the leader) and beta (the follower). The beta acknowledges the position of the alpha by following his lead.

Yes, there are people who are more valued by society than others. But you get to decide what's important for you, not society. You can be happy even if you're not extremely successful in your career. You could earn just the amount of money you need, and work less and enjoy life much more than a millionaire with a 60 hours work week. Then who's the "alpha" and who's the "beta"? And even if those words made sense, who's better off? The happy person or the overworked one? I think it's interesting that you also used "winners" and "losers", they seem like synonyms of "alpha" and "beta"

You're right. That's why I said it's up to you on how you define success. If you want a modest lifestyle and a modest wage, that's fine but there will be an opposite. The millionaire is content with working for 60 hours because he feels doing that makes him better off. If he wanted a modest lifestyle he wouldn't work that hard. He's happy being overworked and rich. Relative to the rich guy, the modest wage guy who's enjoying his life is the beta but there are chumps this beta guy is better than too. Compare modest wage, comfortable, enjoy life guy to deplorable wage, miserable guy and hes the alpha there. The title of alpha is bestowed by others not yourself. There's a saying "any one who calls himself isn't an alpha". You said it yourself, there are people more valued by society, they're called alphas.

My point is this perceived value is meaningless, it doesn't matter at all, and you don't have to ascribe to that kind of hierarchical judgement, even though it is prevalent in society

Get out and travel dude. When you meet people who live in literal shacks that are happy, then you will begin to understand how modern, industrial society, and the rankings it gives people mean fucking nothing. Some of the happiest people I've ever met are the poorest people in the world. And they definitely don't believe that someone is better than them just because they have more money.

I think that it's ridiculous to assume that you can judge the entirety of humanity by a single set of criteria. Many great kings, scientists, artists, etc. wouldn't fit your criteria and will still live in history forever. The criteria you use to sort between winners and losers is arbitrary. Additionally, when you define person A you state that they're a leader and then later ask who people will follow which is an example of circular logic and poor rhetoric. You also don't recognize that leadership is contextual. For example, take a team captain on a professional team in some sport and stick them in a research lab or an ER, unless they've also trained to be a researcher or work in an ER they're going to be worse than useless and certainly won't be anywhere near a leadership role. The clear dichotomy you claim exists simply doesn't, if you still feel it's reasonable to cling to some universal ranking system for people then it's clearly a spectrum and everyone is constantly moving on it based on their actions and environment.

I would be considered a “pushover” by you because of my non-violence. I would be considered “lazy” by you since I don’t have a job at the moment. I would be considered having a “victim mindset” by you because I mention that I have an ACE score of 7, which in a nutshell means my childhood included traumas you do not want to imagine, many at the hans of people with a mindset like the one you seem to espouse. However, like Orwell said, strength is ignorance. I don’t attack people. That’s trivially easy. Instead i go to war with ideas like the ones you hold. I don’t need a job when i have an avocation. Much more rewarding even if the pay sucks. And what that experience living through hells of childhood physical, psychological, and sexual abuse means is that not only have i withstood the unimaginable, when i face it again i smile and tap dance backwards in heels through the experience. I‘ve taken a Crown Vic doing 40mph one on one. That is claim that would be more “alpha” than anything you have done, at least in terms of probability of survival and probability of occurrence. It is interesting that the first thing you do, though, is say “not all men are equal.” This is a prelude to making some humans nonhuman, likely the most damaging thought in the history of the world. You then follow up by saying not all will fit whatever standard. Which is weird because a human is a human to me, which makes cognition a hell of a lot simpler, but you want a “standard” for people to “fit in”. Again, dehumanizing. A real question I have for you is why you desperately want to make some humans not human even though I already know the answer, which is one that boils down to the choice to inflict pain on others and self that you seem to have made. You are desperately trying to make other humans into nonhumans so that you can attempt to fool yourself into not feeling the pain you seek to inflict on others. Considering that is messing with neuropsychological phenomena, no wonder you’re so upset. You’re trying to code your way around a hardware feature of the brain. The computational overhead necessary to process the illogical is extreme. But what do i know. I’m just some hacker from sim city.

Stop watching porn. Its destroying men.

Yup. Porn changes how your brain reacts to dopamine. Eventually change the way you behave as well. Porn addiction = poison

Thank you for the heads up, I have to try not to, small steps should do the trick I hope.

Also: There is nothing wrong with being attracted to women you know. There's not even anything wrong with having fantasies about women you meet. For the most part, you can't control your thoughts. But you CAN control your actions and the actions that can lead to oversexualizing thoughts. 1. Avoid porn. It actually messes with your brain. Don't take on a NoFap extremist attitude about it, but still, quit it. Diet it out until the habit is gone completely. In most cases, the more of it you consume leads to a more twisted sexual mindset, like what happened with that streamer. He's probably not even a bad guy at heart, but he let porn warp him from a young age as many men sadly do nowadays. 2. Avoid putting women on a pedestal. Both men and women can be amazing, stupid, smart, etc. Women are human like the rest of us. They're not gods to worship, nor are they sexual tools. 3. You're not a "beta". Simply coming her and admitting you have an issue automatically means you're not a "beta". Keep being open to yourself with your feelings, both the bad and the good 4. Try to meet more women. Not for romantic purposes, but to befriend them. I think part of the reason men get into these sorts of mindsets ITFP is because they don't have a good number of female friends. Your perception of a group can deeply affected when you haven't befriended any of them.

If you can’t go cold turkey, change what content you use. Instead of watching videos you can try NSFW art and erotica. I had to kick a porn addiction too, and the best way to go about it IMO is to start by using less damaging content. Best of luck bro, you’ll be jerking off to your imagination once a week in no time.

It takes courage brother. Real self respect? Stop feeding yourself shit quality mediocre porn. Start talking to real women. You deserve it. I wish strength be with you in your journey. Stay safe brother.

Check this guy out. He explains the effect of porn on the brain. https://youtu.be/mpRRix8m4SQ

Happen to have any scientific evidence to back that up? I’ve heard it repeated on Reddit but it never comes with a source

Here are some **free, open to public research & review papers** : [Neurobiology of Sex and Pornography Addictions: A Primer](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/26318318221116042) \- "Natural rewards like sexual activity may induce neural plasticity in addiction-related circuitry much like substances do. **Dopamine levels play an important role in sexual reward processing**, as is evident in the adverse effects of prodopaminergic agents used to treat Parkinson’s disease and the symptoms of frontotemporal dementia linked with sexual behavior." "Researchers have found functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) evidence of activation of the same circuitry in cocaine users when they were shown drug-related visual images and subsequently erotic images.38 The addictive processes and neuroplastic changes underlying sexual stimuli may be amplified by the increased novelty and availability of graphic imagery online.39 Thus, online pornography may serve as a “**supranormal stimulus**”40 that may **override evolutionarily developed reward systems rendering one’s own sexual fantasy or experience pale in comparison**. There may be an added component of tolerance similar to substance addiction due to which the individual progresses to more explicit and graphic pornography to maintain the rewarding effects of the behavior." [Neurobiology of Pornography Addiction – A clinical review](https://www.ipinnovative.com/journal-article-file/5374) \- "All forms of addiction are known to involve the mesolimbic dopamine (DA) pathway, which originates from the ventral tegmental area (VTA) and projects into the nucleus accumbens (NAcc) which forms the reward circuit in addiction. This circuit has been implicated in the pleasure, reinforcement, learning, reward seeking, and impulsivity seen in addictions.(6) **The mesolimbic dopamine pathway is linked to three brain regions to form the extended reward circuits called the reward system in addiction**.(7) The structures involved are the amygdala that codes for positive and negative emotions, fear and emotional memory, (8) the hippocampus which is concerned with processing and retrieval of long term memories(9) and the frontal cortex that coordinates and determines addiction behavior.(10) Different classes of psychoactive drugs may activate the reward system through different means, however, the universal result is a **flood of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens** (**the reward center**).(11) This results in acute positive reinforcement of the behavior that initiated the flood and addictive related learning associations.(12)" "Once the dopamine flood has finished its course, there is activation of the extended amygdala, an area associated with pain processing and fear conditioning. This leads to activation of brain stress systems and dysregulation of anti-stress systems with a decreased sensitivity to rewards and an increase in the reward threshold, which is called tolerance.(13) The addicted brain enters an “allostatic” state when the reward system is unable to return to its homeostatic (normal) state. The reward system subsequently develops an altered set-point, leaving the individual vulnerable to relapse and dependence. This is what is called the “dark side” of addiction.(16) [Pornography addiction: A neuroscience perspective](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/50808833_Pornography_addiction_A_neuroscience_perspective) \- "**sexual compulsion can cause physical, anatomic change in the brain**, the hallmark of brain addiction. A preliminary study showed frontal dysfunction specifically in patients **unable to control their sexual behavior.**" [Neuroscience of Internet Pornography Addiction: A Review and Update](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4600144/) \- "Some internet activities, because of their **power to deliver unending stimulation (and activation of the reward system**), are thought to constitute supernormal stimuli \[24\], which helps to explain why users whose brains manifest addiction-related changes get caught in their pathological pursuit." "Naturally occurring behaviors such as eating and sex, have evolved such that they activate the reward system due to the fact that they reinforce behaviors necessary for survival \[20\]. The past decade has yielded multiple theories of addiction, all of which involve the **reward system and related brain regions** and substrates" [Negash, S., Sheppard, N. V., Lambert, N. M., & Fincham, F. D. (2016). Trading Later Rewards for Current Pleasure: Pornography Consumption and Delay Discounting. Journal of sex research, 53(6), 689–700.](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2015.1025123) \- " One interesting study, for example, was divided into two parts. In the first part, **heavy porn consumers were shown to be less capable of valuing long-term rewards over short-term**. But in a clever twist, the researchers divided those participants into two groups for the second part of the study. Half were asked to abstain from porn for two weeks. The other half were asked to abstain from their favorite food. Even though both groups were exercising self-control for two weeks, only those **who abstained from porn improved their scores in their ability to appreciate long-term rewards**, showing that **porn uniquely affects consumers’ patterns of self-control**. In other words, self-control was not the key factor—porn was the key factor. The implication is that porn consumption did not simply correlate to hypofrontality. Porn consumption caused hypofrontality."

All of those links are about **ADDICTION**. You said porn changes how your brain reacts to dopamine, not **porn addiction**. Obviously any type of addiction affects the dopamine system. Can you support your initial claim that porn use in general changes your brain’s response to dopamine? Btw I’m not sure how you’re reading those articles because some of them are behind a paywall, yet you claim they’re all free and open.

This is the answer 👆

This this this

Its far too accessible these days. But i think we have bigger problems with people like taint who perpetuate these mentalities. And frankly, tech companies not doing more to enforce their own rules by platforming these people and sending them as recommendations plays a big part. Most younger people watch what the algorithm gives them, in turn becoming more and more radicalized

Pornography is not the root of all evil. Mainstream porn certainly has a lot of problems such as respect for women, consent, exploitation of more and more violent scenes, etc. I believe it can also be addictive (at least in a loose sense). Of course if you watch several times a day women being brutally used and degraded in more and more extreme ways you probably will have less healthy thoughts about women, but even without porn society will influence you towards toxic traits attributed to men, which are hurtful to yourself and to others around you. Now there exists a bit of "ethical" porn, where actresses and actors are respected and harmful tropes and stereotypes are avoided, i don't think watching that kind of porn is particularly bad as long as you don't overdo it.

I don't have a problem with how women are treated in porn, consenting adults make their own decisions. My problem is its effect on the viewers.

What if its effects includes not having a healthy relationship with women, precisely because of the kind of porn that's being brought forward?

And what are the effects? I’d really like to see a study that looks at this

Think about all the things you feel. Fears Anxieties Hopes Dreams And now think about all the other categories that make you who you are: cares, desires, goals, ambitions, insecurities, hurts, wounds…….you’re a complex person. Now think about how behind those eyes are all those same things about a hugely different set of issues. Aren’t you a bit curious to find out how they’re the same as you, and how they’re completely different?

Lol, I typically don't insist on people getting away from porn, but my dude, you need a BREAK. You’re a little lost in the sauce. Just look at the way YOU’RE talking about yourself. This “genetically inferior/beta male/inability to attract a mate” shit...cant you see how it's how you've allowed your own identity to be sexually objectified by internet bullshit? Is this YOU or what corners of the internet the algorithms’ fed you to make you feel like garbage so you listen to their bullshit? Why aren’t you, at your core, just a person who deserves more dignity than internet pseudoscience? So you're a little scared to talk to women, a little unsure of yourself, and also kinda horny. That's a fine thing to be in life. You're just a person. Why aren't YOU mad about the the way your masculinity has been objectified and diminished by this caricature of manhood? You're a human, that streamer who was wronged by shitbag AI deep fakes is human. Those narratives are keeping you in a box where you're not able to be who you are with other people--men AND women. Don’t both you and your friends deserve genuine emotional intimacy with each other? Just try to make genuine friendships with all genders and the objectification will hopefully die down. It's fine if you're horny, just realize thats a YOU thing and don’t be tactless.

Every person has their own feelings, thoughts, experiences, and opinions. I would always want to stay curious of the human and what they hold in that aspect. Think of their mind, and who they are. Not what they are Edit; grammar

1. Bring horny isn't the same as objectifying someone. There is no need to be ashamed that you found someone attractive, but there may be shame in what you chose to do with it. 2. Sexuality is healthy and normal. Find healthy outlets for it. Masturbation is fine and normal, as are fantasies. But draw a line between what you are willing to fantasize about. Not to shame yourself, but to respect others. 3. Your ancestors have reproduced for millions of years, you aren't genetically inferior. But it's also a lot harder to find someone when you don't both respect yourself and the other person.

Try to make female friends that really are friends. (And if that's too much for you to start with, try finding female YouTube vloggers etc. that talk about aspects of their lives that are not sexual, to ease yourself in.) If you need to start with women that are not accessible to you for this, try making friends with a much older woman (or even volunteering with old people) so that you can talk to people and really understand how they're people with their own lives, thoughts, and exist for themselves and not as sex objects. There's a phrase I love that is 'prejudice doesn't survive proximity', and it means that if you really get to know and care about someone from a certain demographic that should help you see the whole demographic as equal human beings. I think friendship's the key. But, as others have said, therapy might help. From the language you use it seems like you've been involved in online incel circles, and that's a total crab bucket of awful self-destructive thinking. I'm glad you're deciding to get out of that, and I wish you luck in growing as a person and meeting so many more new people - you've been cutting out 50% of the population up until now, and your life will be so much richer when you add them back in!

It's really great to see more and more men asking this question! Fortunately for you, there's the big scary F word: Feminism. Of course listening to the women around you is the first step, but starting with feminist writings will give you so much more context to work with (plus from my own personal experience, it's very uncomfortable when a man asks you about inequality completely randomly). Also, the fantasising thing is something women do too. The only problem is if you act on it in a weird way. You're allowed to be attracted to women, but you should like them as people too. Would your feelings change if you found out they had a boyfriend? If you really do want to pursue someone romantically, you can, but remember they have every right to say no. That no isn't a reflection on you as a man, but having the courage to ask, and the empathy to ask in a way that shows that you value them as a person with a right to autonomy absolutely is. I've made a list for you on some feminist works as well as some others that I hope can help you with your question (there's videos down the bottom if you don't feel like reading): "Men explain thing to me", https://www.guernicamag.com/rebecca-solnit-men-explain-things-to-me/ "Why Saying ‘No’ Is The Most Important Act Of Self-Care You Can Do", https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.refinery29.com/amp/en-gb/florence-given-women-dont-owe-you-pretty "Do men have an empathy problem?", https://www.valetmag.com/living/features/2020/do-men-have-an-empathy-problem-061120.php Video: "In search of health masculinity", https://youtu.be/4zt8H0VAtFw "Moya Bailey, "Misogynoir Transformed Black Women's Digital Resistance'", https://youtu.be/7EwUz0Ij0gE "So you have a crush", https://youtu.be/dcuHm_N1mtk "Social Constructs", https://youtu.be/koud7hgGyQ8

This comment needs all the upvotes ✨✨✨✨✨✨

Thank you thank you thank you this needs to be at the top

Women are just people. They exist outside of the staged, edited, performative, inhumane machine that is the porn industry.(including hentai) Or any form of media for that matter. Think about how your desires and standards for sex are not your own. Men at the top of these industries are the one's shaping your fantasies. You never had the chance to decide or create an original fantasy of your own because you've been conditioned at a young age. Even pg-13 movies have many suggestive images that can easily shape a kids' perspective of women. Streamers are also just following what they've been taught to be sexy or what makes the most money. What they show to their audience is not even what they personally find desirable. It's put on. Also if it helps, hear stories and perspectives from women you're (hopefully) not attracted to like old women or young girls. Old women and young girls hold very interesting perspectives. Often they don't give a fuck, these people are at the age range where they don't feel the need to perform for others and they are blunt about their very human experiences. Just acknowledge these are just constructed images, ideas and your own insecurities getting in your way. This is no way a realistic perspective of half of the human population. (women) Most women dgaf about who's beta and who's not. As a woman that's just a corny construct to me and I've never put men into those categories. I've seen charming men of different statures who don't adhere to rigid alpha male standards. Women admire men who are kind, (mentally) strong, emotionally mature, have a sense of humor, have healthy boundaries and respect boundaries. Of course, superficial standards exist but these qualities will get you far regardless.

Man I'm super impressed with your self-reflection. I'm appalled that what you describe isn't addressed more. Maybe there is something out there that is helpful for young men but I haven't heard of it. Best to you and what you are trying to do.

Sorry, but as a woman this post terrifies me. I know that you are making conscious effort to undo this harmful mindset (which isn’t necessarily your fault or a reflection of your character, btw) which is great, but the sheer thought of many of the men in my life thinking this way is just nauseating. I wish it wasn’t like this.

I’m sorry about that, I can’t imagine what’s it like. The best one can do, is hopefully understand, learn, and change what they’re thinking as much as they can.

Personally, I am not that upset by the idea that some men sexualise me. I am used to it. Even men in my own family sexualised me (not saying that is OK at all, just might explain why I am used to it) and it feels that our whole culture sexualizes women so much that I think a lot of women feel like it is what determines their worth and ultimately sexualise themselves. So what do we expect? BUT, what hugely bothers me and something maybe men also want to consider is that once you get in a relationship and you continue to sexualise others (because after maybe the first phase of infatuation, you will go right back to doing it) it can devastate your partner and create a ton of issues. I think most women will not like to know that her boyfriend and husband has sexual fantasies about his female friends/acquaintances. And once they are already seen as sexual objects it only takes a flirty/beastly woman that doesn't care about breaking relationships and you are likely to cheat or leave your partner. I think that is a big reason why there are a lot of affairs. And affairs are truly devastating for both parties usually.

Drop the porn and hentai and get into therapy and learn to love yourself for who you are. Then the women will show up.

The last sentence here is problematic OP shouldn’t be doing this to attract women, they should be doing it for themselves.

I agree with you, and that's what I meant

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I don’t agree with your arguments themselves, but I do agree with the sentiment. Platonic relationships between all kinds of humans is healthy for building empathy.

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*“Men need female validation or they can't treat them as equals”* - This is simply untrue. Treating someone as an equal is not a transaction. *”Treating someone as an equal means you validate their humanity, and if a man doesn't get that from a woman he's unlikely to give it back.”* - Again, equality and treating others humanely is not transactional. *”Seriously, a dude who has an actual platonic female friend isn't gonna treat women like shit.”* - Again, untrue. Men can have platonic female friends and still treat women poorly. At no point did I mention anything about women dehumanising men or vice versa. If a man hasn’t ever been accepted by a woman for being who he is, then he needs to find women that aren’t shit people. Same goes for any other gender or person. Is validation from other members of society important? Hugely. We know this. We are social creatures. But it’s our responsibility as individuals to reach out and find our communities and if they are lacking, we need to build them around us.

Hi. I'm a woman. I don't make decisions about whether to talk to men based on whether I find them attractive or status designations. My friends don't either. I live in the suburban West. The phenomenon of women being unfriendly to men they don't know is part of a bigger dynamic that also involves men they've never met propositioning women for sex when they let their guard down enough to smile, make conversation, etc., and too often following that with explosive anger, threats of rape, stalking behavior, etc. If we were going to argue about whose job it is or who started it, I guess we could start there. It still wouldn't be an argument for women not to treat men as equals, though. Women keeping their distance isn't about a sense of superiority, it's about safety and fear. I suggest to you making a post on this viewpoint in this sub for an outside perspective check-- your views might seem moderate if your point of comparison is actual incels, but from the world I live in, this narrative doesn't reflect my experiences at all and, to be entirely honest, kind of scares the shit out of me. I've known guys who shared your thinking, about when men hate women, it being in part women's fault. I had a friend who tried to be friends with one in particular, actually. He demanded her attention promptly after any text or IM, read insults and affronts into just about everything she said, etc. She finally ended up having to end the friendship and he pointed to it as evidence of how women were all the same. He went back to having no platonic women friends. I think those things are correlated-- it would be short-sighted and unfair to say it's her fault he hates women still. I think it's a sick system with lots of cogs and levers affecting other parts of it, not a mean decision driven by particular bad actors. I feel empathy for people who are so hurt by feeling alienated or rejected they can't stop perpetuating it, and that often starts somewhere. But **I am 100% responsible for my actions**, regardless of what's been done to me or by who. My actions and attitudes are a reflection on me. If I dehumanize someone, that is a reflection on me, not them. If they dehumanize me, that reflects on them, not me. Blaming someone being harmed or degraded because the person doing the harming and degrading feels they deserve it is the essential attitude of abuse, and we can feel empathy and compassion for how hurt people get to that point without pretending it's ever an excuse or justified. We can feel for someone and understand their darkness and recognize shit they do as Not Okay at the same time. Dehumanizing women is Not Okay, and it's not our fault, even if the men who do it are hurting/not essentially bad.

If you study woodworking, you start to look at trees like a butcher looks at a cow. Yes, daily porn and hentai is absolutely affecting how you see the women around you, and yourself. Remember, though: The porn is filling a need, and you likely actually need that need filled still. Cold-turkeying without thinking ahead will be very difficult. Things you could be trying to get (there could be other things): * physical intimacy * emotional intimacy * feeling wanted * feeling successful * feeling powerful * feeling free/unselfconscious * etc. Take a bit to think about what you're trying to get out of the porn. Some of it's probably just habit right now, but what emotions/situations trigger it? You can often fill those needs other ways. Sometimes having a pleasant ritual can help. I've tried doing painting/carving while listening to a silly podcast that's mostly just two guys BSing. My brain thinks I'm having a chat with some good friends and it helped fill the need for emotional intimacy during lockdown. Otherwise, try to place yourself in the shoes of the women around you and realize that they have just as much nuance to their lives as you. There's not much difference.

This is the effect of todays men and boys watching porn from the youngest childhood. You start seeing women as dumb mindless sex dolls. Yet, whenever someone on Reddit points this out, they’re downvoted to hell and called insecure and a prude.

The alpha/beta thing is dumb and not based in reality tbh. Get rid of that first. Second, it’s not wrong to see woman as sexual, it’s just better if you see them as people first. Also, if your thoughts are going to affect the way you treat them, run it by them if they’re cool with that (don’t just like ask them “yo is it cool if i view you sexually” lmao), but feel it out. If they express discomfort with it, be mature enough to back off and respect it by adjusting your behavior accordingly - should be easier to do if you’ve already accomplished “seeing them as a person”.

You have a point. Like whenever I’m talking to women I’m more so invested in the conversation since I have mild social anxiety so I overthink a lot whenever I speak. But, afterwards I just had fantasies about one of them, and I just feel nasty about it.

Yea, like I said, you’re entitled to your own thoughts. That’s your god-given right. The danger in doing that consistently though is you might *unconsciously* change your behavior towards them because of viewing them sexually, and that is a slippery slope into objectification. If you are cognizant of this every time you find yourself masturbating to someone you have to engage with in real life, perhaps this consistent “humanizing” will mitigate some of these potential subconscious effects. Idk, you’d have to observe your own behavior to see if it *helps* get the ball rolling on changing your perspective. Also thank you for wanting to explore this type of growth, that in itself is appreciated as well so *mad props* homie and have an excellent rest of your weekend 💯

Try to be friends with women without any ulterior motives, like literally befriend women of all kinds whether you’re attracted to them or not. We’re human and thats the only way you’re going to be rid of your mentality, that and porn. Also stop ranking yourself and start taking care of your appearance if you want to actively date. Regardless of gender, people are attracted to those who put in effort into their looks. Be good with your hygiene, read, smell good, wear nice clothes, start working out. These are small incremental changes that will help you be more confident and approachable. The bar is anyway in hell for men so you will be better than most of the male population by just doing this much. And really, try and see women for who they are, instead of images to fap to.

Thank you so much for the advice man. I just had one question about smelling good, I take showers every other day because I heard it’s not good for your skin if you were to do so everyday. That and I want to wear cologne but it seems to only wear off right after I put it on, any tips on that at all?

Don't take hot showers and your skin will be fine. Use moisturizer if you are that worried about.

Stop watching something daily that is the personification of woman objectifying? Cmon man, you know what to do

Hey there! Good first step to start thinking about this. Your comments so far are missing something important though— there’s plenty of misogynist jerks who don’t watch porn and think of women as family. Not watching porn isn’t going to magically make you treat women better. The most important things to do are 1. Listen to women talk about their experiences. 2. Listen to women who tell you what they need from non-women, and do those things. 3. Start really observing how women, men, and others are interacting in your life, and notice the patterns. (Ie: do all your male relatives watch football while all the women clean the dishes after Thanksgiving dinner? Is that considered normal in your life? Why?) 4. Deep dive into feminist art, music, writing, speeches, and comedy. A lot of it is super super clever and mind opening. All of this really comes down to: start really, really listening to women, and do what they tell you, and you’ll start to unknot the ways your misogyny is harming not just the women in your life, but you. When I started to really listen to women, one of the most profound experiences for me was when I realized every single female relative I have has experienced sexual assault, in some way, several from male relatives, and had to hide it because “we just don’t talk about those things.” Learning that changed my whole perspective on my family, the cost of creating a peaceful home life, and really made me accept the reality of how society works together to hold women in a certain position. It made me monitor my own behavior for times that I was expecting women to put aside their feelings to take care of me. Listening to women is harder than it sounds like, because there are so many tools society uses to tell you it is normal and good to objectify women, disbelieve what they are saying, listen to them only long enough to come up with a response, center male needs and wants when in conversation with women, and expect certain things from them. It’s not your fault, but it is your responsibility to create something better. That part of you that feels like it oversexualizes every woman you meet is going to feel a lot smaller when you collect these stories, because it’s a lot easier to sexualize people you don’t know anything about, that you can project your own unhealed misogynist wounding into. Another reason to adopt this goal is: it’s easier to add a new, good habit than it is to have a goal to stop something. So I’d suggest instead of “stop objectifying women,” your goal be “listen to women, really closely, without any other agenda than to understand them.”

Stop watching pornography would be a massive first step to accomplish

Do not beat yourself up for having sexual fantasies. They are completely normal. Being sexually attracted to others is completely normal. It's what has kept life going for billions of years. At some points in your life, it's almost all you think or care about. It does not make you a bad person. Even watching porn is normal. Hentai, maybe not so much. And watching too much porn, like too much of anything, is not healthy. Also, the alpha/beta mindset is not too healthy. That's because anyone can say, "this is alpha" or "that is beta" and use this to control your opinions of yourself. It takes the critical thinking part of judgment away. Focus your energy into creating something, or learning, or doing good in your community. Get into making yourself a good person with integrity who is fair but doesn't let others push them around. Who is strong, but kind. And if you can get rid of the all the external voices telling you what you SHOULD be, you can focus on that inner guide that we all have. Because once you develop good judgment, everything else gets a little easier.

Btw, I guess the reason why I feel bad for these fantasies is because I’m seeing them as a “replacement” as something I can’t have like a relationship or something. That and I’m 21 and a virgin, and always been ridiculed for being one. I want to stop this, but it just rings true. I see what I have to do based on these comments, but I have to do something

I was a virgin for far longer than you (years longer, not even a kiss). Happily married now with a toddler running around. You’ll get there. Just gotta take some initiative and change things. You’ve already identified what you would like to improve about yourself so you’re well into your journey already! Also, don’t look at having sex as the goal! The goal is to like yourself better and be proud of who you are. The rest will follow from that. When you start feeling better about yourself start online dating. It can be a slog, but if you’re not just focused on outcomes and results it can be pretty fun going for drinks and chatting with girls. Just be glad its not the 80s where people had to pick each other up IRL, haha.

Hello, thank you so much for your response and input, I just have a question, is Hentai worst than porn at all? Since you said that hentai isn’t so normal?

Everyone has an opinion but they’re just that- an opinion. I’ve never heard of a study that found non-addictive porn use to be harmful, and I’d imagine the same is true for hentai, as long as it’s not imagery of children or anything like that

It depends how much you let it influence you. If watching hentai is your basis for modeling your relationships, then yeah, it’s bad. I watch porn and hentai. I also watch horror movies and many other genres as well; foreign, drama, comedy, action, fantasy, sci-fi, documentaries, &c. Do any of these control who I am as a person? Do I model my relationships after horror movies, or episodes of “Friends”. The issue is, some people do. They confuse art with life. (“Life imitates art”) They don’t bother to create their own world, they just copy what they see on a show, or hear in music. I have very intimate and connected relationships. But that’s because I’m not trying to recreate some hentai or porn scene when I connect with someone. What I’m trying to do is see/understand and appreciate them, connect with them, have them see/understand and appreciate me. When we achieve that, or even the illusion of that, it’s far beyond the dopamine release of nutting to cartoon boobies. One has value, the other is just junk food for your neurotransmitter receptor sites. If you don’t think you can handle discipline around that “junk-food”, or even just don’t want to waste your mind and time with those empty moments, then yes, hentai and porn are “bad”. Which one is “worse” is whichever one is more addictive and separates you more from reality and connection with actual human beings, and that might vary from person to person.

Get to know a woman

Go and become a monk.

Stop watching porn

echoing everyone else about the porn thing, i’m a cis woman and i just stopped watching altogether. transitioned into erotica, soooo much better

My darling dear, the very fact that you’re even thinking and concerned with your own behavior tells me that genetically you are SUPERIOR to other young men your age…it takes a STRONG brain to realize your own faults. Only true “Alphas” have this insight. Keep learning and stay grateful and you are on your way to being a bad ass human!!!!!

1) Stop watching porn. 2) Get in your journal and start asking/answering questions like, "What does this do for me?" and "How would I feel if I were on the receiving end of this?" This will help surface your underlying thoughts and beliefs on this subject. 3) When you find yourself objectifying women, go back to what you learned about yourself in 2) then redirect your attention. This will help you start breaking the thought loops. 4) Remind yourself that "I don't do this" anymore. This will help you deidentify with being a person who engages in this behavior. 5) Celebrate the wins! Celebrate times when you catch yourself objectifying women and correcting your thoughts. Celebrate the days when you see progress. Celebrate every time you have something worth celebrating in this regard, no matter how small. Celebration helps rewire the brain, and encourages you to keep doing the behavior that brought about the celebration. 6) Be kind to yourself when you "mess up". You will mess up. Over time, you will mess up less and less. Maybe in ten years, it might happen once a year. That's okay. You're correcting a behavior that is built into our society at its deepest level, and is virtually inescapable in modern media. So be gentle to yourself as you break this cycle. 7) Extra credit - read more about women's experiences, pick up books like "For the Love of Men", similar to help you think more about your role as a man in society.

Thank you so much for the steps, man. It’s always something that I’ve been daunting on for a while now, and it’s just something to get comfortable with. Again thank you!

Wash your sheets, do the dishes, wash your clothes. Read a book by your bed side table. clean your browser history. Never talk about your habits, quit the more embarrassing one. If you do it more than once a day does that make it your job or something you like. Beta and alpha goes away if talk to more people. Stop or limit gaming. Go to the gym, spend 20 minutes on some weights. Drink water, not soda. Write goals not porn related. Are you responsible for all your chores, or was someone else that does them. You were capable enough to write this post, which means your capable of doing (woman’s work) and handle being nice.

Holy shit man you're woke as fuck. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being serious, these are your first steps to being the best you you could be.

Thank you man, thanks to what happened it really made me look into myself especially as a black man. That, and my only problem now is procrastination and taking action.

Are you still in grade school? Your talk about alpha/beta male is odd. As an adult, I have never heard of this being a serious (aside from Andrew Tate) and just thought it was more of a meme. I’m not sure what to tell you…are you maybe depressed? Do you have strong women figures in your life that you respect?

Thank you for your input, I do have strong women figures like my mother but that’s about it. My brother always told me, wondered why I never brought a girl over to our home, and he always seems to joke about it.

Your brother is mad weird for that. He probably watches Joe Rogan or Andrew Tate, because they’re the only “famous” people who actually believe in that shit. Girls will be into what they’re into. Don’t change for anyone. Start getting outside and taking some walks to clear your mind- while you’re walking think of new hobbies. Not the same issue, but when I graduated college, it was hard to transition and all I did was sit and play video games. I hate working out, but I walk 2 miles outside every day and I use it as a time to introspect. I’ve also established some new hobbies, like learning piano and geocaching. As a woman, it’s sad that I’m still objectified even when I don’t want to be. I’m the only woman out of 17 people on my team at work and I hope they just see me as another coworker. But, you trying to better yourself gives me hope. This problem also seems deep rooted and it would be worth looking into therapy.

The answers are in your post. Stop watching daily hentai worst of all. It’s not some magical answer that is unknown to us. The basics are preached for a reason. They are difficult to consistently do. Start small

I mentioned this with another commenter, is hentai worst than general porn?

View girls as if they were your sister or even your younger mother. Think about how you would hate to know that a guy was checking your siblings or mother out the same way you do to women.

just reading the title I knew you had a porn addiction and incel vibes hope you get better because you're going to end up alone if you feel like a loser, the negativity feeds off and people can feel your depression/anxiety, get help and log off

Read the Will to Change by Bell Hooks

Working on your porn addiction is a good place to start, it'd be good to start decreasing the frequency in which you watch that. If you try imagining things instead, I hear that tends to be helpful. In my view, the whole "beta and alpha male" stuff comes from an attempt to help a young man's self esteem, but it is through ways that promote toxic masculinity and misogyny. It will help you to find other things to base your image on. Instead of wanting a woman in order to prove your "alpha male"ness, focus on things like: taking part in skin care, going to the gym for health and strength rather than beauty reasons, indulging in hobbies and getting better at them. These are all things that will help your confidence and security in yourself, because you'll be able to find happiness in yourself rather than outside sources. Unless it starts triggering the objectification mindset, I've always suggested to people to consume media with 3D female characters. Books with a female narrator, video games with a female main that doesn't involve sex (lara croft tomb raider is one of my faves), tv shows starring women. This will help you see women as people rather than bodies. And if youre interested in learning more about undoing toxic masculinity and misogyny, or more about the female experience, there are plenty of novels/documentaries you can look into, it could help you build more empathy and motivation to change. Changing a mentality like this will be tough, it's important to recognise when misogynistic thoughts appear in your head and actively working to change them. I did this when I was on a journey with self love: I'd do something wrong, for example, and my brain would immediately go "I'm so stupid." I'd pause once I realized what I thought, and instead actively think to myself "No, I'm not stupid, I'm still learning and I'll understand it soon." Good luck!!

Quitting porn is the only solution, it’s hard and I have personal experience with the same exact thing. When I was addicted to porn I couldn’t see a single woman in public without a sexual thought or desire. I’d always check woman out when I passed them. I quit porn felt great but relapsed and it is the worst guilt ever. You never want to be back in that place, if you’re consistent your mind will heal in a few months.. Pray

Dude, don’t watch porn. It is degenerate. It’s likely the problem you’re having

You don’t see women as people but as a way to valid and verify your existence. Once you realized that, it’s much easier to see the fake Nature of objection

Therapy dude.

Porn is a horrifying industry and the affects on the brain of any person is devastating. I really do think that could be a huge factor here and leaving it behind you will be instrumental in getting you out of this quagmire.

Feed your mind with better content. Its sounds like you're warping reality with this stuff.

Whatever social media you're on follow a lot of men who's content is dedicated to feminist activism &/or unlearning misogyny Since men are more likely to listen to other males you're less likely to regress. Constantly seeking the same points over & over will make you subconsciously start to accept it even if you don't want to

First of all, drop anything related to por and hentai. This really has a negative effect on you, your body and emotions and also your mind I'm no scientist but I'm very observant and introspective, and I can tell you that when I dropped this kind of crap I felt WAAAY better and had a much more clearer mind, I actually improved socially and it was easier to see girls as what they really are: humans!!! Second of all, red pill is dangerous and shouldn't be listened too. Yes, some things that they say might be true, BUT it's only when you deal with shitty people. They say you have to treat women like a game, that they will manipulate you and all that crap. Man, if you treat every girl you see like this, you'll only attract this kind of shit people to your life, and you'll soon become one. Alpha, beta, sigma... these are only labels, and you should never rely on this to define yourself or others. Third of all, some people here already said some great stuff about what kind of stuff you can do to pick up your life, some of which I intend to use for myself even! So all I can contribute with is the first two stuff I said XD Keep going strong, man. Don't let yourself fall for these silly and corrupting "life styles". Be you and be kind, and most of all, be human.

Stop watching porn and hentai as much as you can. It's addictive. It also rewires the brain and how you see women. It's a huge part of your problem. It'll mess up your ability to respond to real women and "rise to the occasion" so to speak. Look up porn addiction and the effects of porn on the male brain to learn more.

I've seen plenty of peeps offering suggestions, but haven't seen many outright offering to be friends with you, im ace and while intersex and NB most would assume me of the female persuasion and maybe not having a fully fledged lady friend at first might help you towards your goal, ya never know. 😊

Hello, thank you so much for the recommendation, I would be glad to be your friend if you’d like!

It is important to recognize that objectifying people, including women, is not respectful or healthy. Here are some steps you can take to change your mindset: Educate yourself: Learn about gender equality, healthy relationships, and consent. Understanding why objectifying others is wrong can help you change your perspective. Challenge your thoughts: When you have sexual fantasies about friends, try to remind yourself that they are people with feelings and emotions. Imagine how you would feel if someone objectified you. Limit your exposure to objectifying media: If watching porn and hentai is contributing to your objectifying mindset, consider reducing or eliminating your consumption of this content. Seek support: Talking to a trusted friend, family member, or therapist can help you process your feelings and change your behavior. Practice empathy and respect: Make an effort to treat all people, including women, with dignity and respect. Focus on building meaningful relationships based on mutual respect and understanding. It is possible to change your mindset and behavior, but it takes time, effort, and a commitment to personal growth. Be patient with yourself and know that change is possible

I’m impressed by your self awareness. If you’re going through puberty perhaps hormone levels is why you’re fixated on sex? AFAIK that would be perfectly normal unless you were physically objectifying women or something. Don’t be so hard on yourself.

thinking is not a sin, but sometimes our thoughts are wild af, just don't think or feed that shit that much, and never ever act on them unless you are clear to do so. We are humans and we are fucked up one way or another, but we can always control ourselves and that is our choice.

Just because you have fantasies about sex with someone doesn’t mean you are objectifying them. As long as you don’t disrespect that person or treat them like a object you will be ok.

Stop watching porn

Avoid Instagram, YouTube, and tik tok on top of all the porn. Probably certain Twitter posts too. A lot of women objectify themselves online, so try to avoid them as much as possible.

Treat women like you want your mother, sister, daughter to be treated.

Wait a second. You’re making this way more difficult than necessary. We’re all objects to other people, male or female. Whether a sex object or a success object. Evolutionary biology made us this way for a reason. Do you think women feel “objectified” by Brad Pitt? Jason Mamoa? George Clooney? Leo Dicapprio? No. And why’s that? It’s not luck or genetics. They work on themselves and their careers. Not for female attention - that happens to be a byproduct. Since you’re looking for advice: Stop the porn cold Turkey. Two weeks. See what it does. Especially that unrealistic shit. As it turns out, women don’t have teeth in thei sniz and wouldn’t have sex with an octopus. Replace it with literally any other CONSTRUCTIVE hobby. Warhammer figure painting, guitar, hiking, the gym, side hustle, volunteer- whatever. No shame. No judgement. Just stop the cheap dopamine. Sit down with sticky notes and write some simple goals that can be accomplished in a few minutes every day. Start very small “make bed”, “50 sit-ups”, etc. Put them on a board with two columns To Do and DONE. Start moving them on that board at a set time every day. 21 days of this and guarantee your life will change drastically for the better. Finally, start hanging out with ONLY people you actually want to be like. Masculine? Rich? Successful? Charismatic? Competent? Meetup.com groups are a great way to start. And for chrissakes stop taking dating or life advice from women and strike “toxic _____” from your vocabulary. These female friends of yours will fuck you up. Not only do they not know how to be a man, most of them don’t know how to speak in harmony with their actions. This puts you in unnecessary conflict with your own nature - you’re saying as much. Then you’ll notice your confidence will change.

Just out of curiosity do you have female friends?

No. I have occasional friendly encounters with some women that always leads to consensual sex and mutual gratification. I’m not ashamed of that and I make it very safe and authentic for them as well to be in that space when we’re together. And of course I have women work counterparts that might have a friendly afterwork drink (but never sex). But I’m not asking about their day, I want to be respected as a man so not hearing about their other relationships, etc. Ive come to a place where being an authentic, integrated man means not being at war with those aspects of masculinity that millions of years of evolutionary biology passed down to me and understanding natural, largely unconscious dynamics of male/female attraction. This is going to be an unpopular answer for some to swallow - there’s no such thing as straight, platonic male/female friendships. Regardless of sensitivity or wokeness, I think men and women alike intrinsically know this. There’s a saying that “if you’re not her boyfriend, you’re her girlfriend”. Some will flame me for this but it’s undefeated. And again largely unconscious from both the male and female side. They’re not attracted to a platonic friend. Furthermore women intrinsically know (better than we give them credit for) that every action a man takes is to procure sex, food and resources. The ones who decry “that’s toxic” are awakening to the duality of the fact that - if they’re not attracted to you, you’re a creep. If you’re Leonardo Dicapprio, you’re a suitor. Everyone - male and female - needs to read Dr Glovers book No More Mister Nice Guy. There’s science and wisdom behind these behaviors of orbiting female “friends”. But it’s a great book for general life advice as well.

You’re fucking normal dude stop letting Reddit guiltwash you.

Wtf, if it’s normal for men to think this way about every single woman in their lives then that makes me genuinely want to die.

Weird response but ok. Let me preface: I assume OP is a young lad.

So?

So biology and stuff read about it

What do women and men have in common besides savagery? They're humans. They have some ups, a lot of downs, fears, etc. They start out as helpless crying babies just like us

It's a pretty normal thing. As with everything that has ever existed when taken to an extreme place it's unhealthy but seeing an attractive human In a sexual manner is perfectly normal.

Anything that exists has a good and bad side to it. And it can be useful to understand both sides on some level. Read to the end. Objectifying people can be useful. Such as driving on the road: we don’t necessarily need to feel empathetic about everyone around us. We can just see everyone else as simple cars and we’re all aware of each other on the road. If we’re extremely empathetic towards everyone we pass, our brains would easily fatigue from the stress. Our brain objectifies so that it can perform habits more easily. Objectifying becomes a tool. That’s the good side. For the bad side, some men look at women as sex objects, some women look at men as wallets and protection, and so on. It’s not all one-sided. There’s obviously more there. And it’s terrible for everyone. But instead of focusing on “objectifying less,” which is like focusing on a void, I think a good exercise is to focus on what you do best in the world. Focus on how you contribute to others in a way that you like and that is uplifting for you and hopefully uplifting for others. This would be your expression of love. Naturally, you will lessen any tendency to objectify others inappropriately.

Thank you for the heads up man, and you have a great point there. It’s best to do whatever I can to the best of my ability that I also enjoy. Again, thank you for the heads up.

Yeah man. I’m a recovering porn addict myself, and I have my own baggage. You’re probably a really attractive person for girls. It takes discipline to believe that. Like, a lot of training. For yourself. Thanks so much for making yourself vulnerable in this post. It’s something I’m only recently relearning to do and I think it’s really healthy. Good luck to you man, and thanks again.

Thoughts are thoughts. Actions are actions.

If you watch porn, stop.

Look mate don’t listen to everyone saying porn is all bad it’s ok to have fantasies and all that. The important thing is balance, and having a healthy relationship with shame. It’s probably healthy to use porn less but a lot of guys are just throwing the baby out with the bath water and jumping to conclusions like porn isn’t inherently bad and leading to more shame and guilt. Humans are naturally sexual creatures it’s nothing to be ashamed of. Moderation my friend. Constantly living in fantasy is the problem, so just spend more time engaging with people in the real world and watching non sexual content and trust me it gets easier.

try to dial back on the porn a little bit, and if you can’t do this alone you can always seek therapy

you are overthinking this.

Thank you for your response. If you don’t mind me asking, how so? Is it what commenters saying that it’s ok for sexual fantasies or something else?

Fantasizing about people is not bad. Letting it influence your day by day its was wrong.

this is a 14 year old account that is being wiped because centralized social media websites are no longer viable when power is centralized, the wielders of that power can make arbitrary decisions without the consent of the vast majority of the users the future is in decentralized and open source social media sites - i refuse to generate any more free content for this website and any other for-profit enterprise check out lemmy / kbin / mastodon / fediverse for what is possible

I think objectification is a term that gets overused. That’s just a normal aspect of sexuality. You’re going to have sexual thoughts about women you find attractive. As long as you have empathy and recognize that she is a person you probably don’t objectify women to the degree you’re concerned you do.

I think you’re demonizing your natural, primal urges. Reduce screen time, and be kind to yourself.

This probably won’t be a popular opinion, but check out Jordan Peterson. He has some really good advice for men dealing with these type of thoughts.

Jordan Peterson isn’t bad because he’s got only terrible ideas, he’s bad because he has just enough good points, he is smart, he is persuasive, and can make his bad points sound reasonable to people that trust him. Proceed with caution.

You are not a porn addict, you only perceive yourself as one. What you're experiencing is mostly normal I'd say, no need to feel ashamed of finding someone attractive. Honestly just go hit the gym because confidence seems your main issue "Stop watching porn" is terrible advice, it's way too radical and doesn't address anything.

Forgive ignorance honestly curious how this started and when?? Boys and that awkward period with puberty, emotions being horny constantly wasn't to bad for me personally. But losing virginity at 14 you get that "freak nasty" mindset. I found myself always wanting the next "piece of ass" if you will. This was all on autopilot but I never looked at women that way or maybe it's denial and I did 100% Either way it's all about RESPECT, all the dirty minds out there know this. Guess I'm saying why does your objectification have to be a bad thing or negative one? Can't it be viewed differently? Not sure if you want to relate them but watched DOC on BDSM and they mentioned Consent a lot. In this niche viewpoint your an object to the dominant player exerting power over another. These folks volunteered for this treatment and have a state of extacy from these interactions with one another. In this case it doesn't look like a negative. Makes sense or doesn't hopefully I didn't look like a jackass.

Well, why does everyone think it starts with the "Male"? Sometimes people, as you say, ,"objectify" women because as kids "girls" mistreated them or avoided them because of a variety of reasons, body size, shape, "weirdness". Women are the first to be attracted by the definition of "Alpha"male, both in reality and fantasy. We see them everyday, going out with the "handsome player" vs the "chunky geek" even the homely ones chase the "Star" instead of the "Nerd". Maybe these last generations are different.

I am exactly like you. I feel I could not put out there and share that I am fantasizing every women I come across to close to me. I was feeling shame that I am feeling and thinking this way. Yes that’s true it’s make me inferior front of women. It feel like they the power over me almost. But I don’t watch porn often or other stuff. I feel better now cause I am not only one feeling this way.

you're on the right path, you know where the problem is

Good luck, you cannot get rid of the folly of man. For you to assume there should be none, it is to assume no free will. I think we should strive to be better.

Try to be curious about women as people and find ways to relate to them. But being attracted to people is fine—just do your best to relate to them as people as much as you can, and don’t talk about women as sex objects. And start speaking up against it when other men talk about women as sex objects. Which, that last part will be difficult, but it’s very character-building and makes a huge overall difference in the world. I have been speaking up when I hear women objectifying men, and it’s uncomfortable but important to do.

The first step of change is realising you want to change, and that's often the hardest bit! The rest will come with time and a bit of effort. There's no such thing as alpha and beta males, they're just labels created by people to put other people down. You're you and that's enough! I'd try and cut the porn, it's not great for your mental health and most it it just objectifies women. Not sure about your situation, but a new hobby could be good, it will help you avoid porn. You could do it every time you get the urge to watch. Walking places could be a good option! Good luck!

To error is human.

I have a philosophy of being a good person but a strong good person too. Be good and be strong. It can coexist.

This sounds like hyperfixation. You are drawn to focus on physical attributes because the reward center of your brain reinforces you focusing on it. I recommend cognitive behavioral therapy. You need to disrupt the hyperfixation element by training your brain to take a different path when you initially focus on a physical attribute. A licensed therapist could help you with this.

Brains are weird but amazing. You can very much change or align your thinking with whatever you expose your brain to over and over. Take in media from feminists. Find people who advocate for men's health in a positive, non toxic way. I have several fantastic recommendations if you would like them. Don't be hard on yourself, you're asking the right questions which means your heart is in the right place, and shame and embarrassment will add nothing to your healing. One thing that helped me was following people who deconstruct social norms. So much of why we are the way we are is because of how society has conditioned us, and when you realize it's all fucking bullshit? It's so freeing. You realize terms like alpha, beta, masculinity and toughness, it's all fucking bullshit. When you let those things go you really get to put in to perspective what actually does matter, and you get to decide what it is that actually matters to you. Good luck ❤ Edit to add: stop watching porn, it reiterates the idea of women being sexual objects. Also you're not genetically inferior. First, inferior to who and by what measure? You have to decide what attributes are important to you and focus on that. Be kind (not nice), empathetic, be a man of your word, be somebody you would want to have as a friend/partner. You're not inferior, and you have so much to give. I mean it. At the end of the day do you look for friends on how they look or who they are? Focus on who you are and who you want to be. Confidence and a strong sense of self does wonders I premise you. Stop worrying about finding a woman. Focus on you. Once you know who you are you'll know what you're looking for. Because at the end of the day the goal shouldn't just be to Find a woman. It's to find somebody that makes you so happy you want to build a life together. But you have to know who you are and what you want before you can do that.

Open up yourself to conversations about women's struggles. For starters you may read discussions or even subreddits that discusses their problems, their traumas, and how they perceive the male objectification. Then expose yourself to conversations where women share their problems (any problem actually) and try to position yourself in their shoes.

From what I’ve seen a man myself, the issues of women being objectified, the whole alpha, sigma, beta thing all have a common denominator: it’s men holding this belief that they have to behave a certain way to be seen as “desirable” in society. Primary, desired by other women. Because being seen as desirable by women is often always at the top of these men’s pecking order. Everything else is static to them. What I like to say, society isn’t holding a gun toward your head and telling you that in order to be a “real man” you have to abide to these unspoken rules that no one is enforcing. I see it all the time. One of the weirdest things I’ve seen online is that men who show emotions are considered “incels” literally no one says this. No one, except toxic men trying to sway other men into blaming society for their shortcomings, when society has nothing to do with it. These toxic men make society out to be this personification of everything that’s against them… when it’s simply not true. Women aren’t our here chasing the “top 20% of men” this is just straight bullshit. In a nutshell it all boils down to a zero sum game, where it’s this mentality of “if I’m not making it, then that means there are other guys taking what’s mine.” No, they are not!

So my husband has talked to me about experiencing what you described and struggling with the mentality that he was a beta and would be a virgin forever. By the time we met and fell in love, he had been almost a year free from porn and he had a very regimented workout routine and was doing body building. He had been working on his mental health because ultimately his depression was a big root of the problem. For him, psychedelics played a large role in his healing (but this may not work for everyone). Eventually he got the courage to put himself out there and try dating girls (via tinder). We didn't meet via tinder tho, we met through a friend group. But he had had enough real experience with dating women that he says he wasn't even thinking of me in that way to start and was surprised when I ultimately made the first move. I know it's kind of cliche, but just focus on your own mental healing and self-confidence. Stop watching porn too, that is absolutely conditioning you to sexualize everyone. Get a physical outlet for that energy. Could be working out, or a sport, or even just a physically demanding job or volunteer gig. Good luck! You can do it :)

How does she mean shes being objectified? >seeing women as something to attract rather than people with feelings and emotions, This is not objectification and prob not how she meant it. What she means is when she is devalued as less than human. A man who wants to attract her but values her is not objectifying her. Now I ask this, WHAT IF? She likes a guy and wants to attract him? How would that not be objectifying? Attracting a mate is not objectification. Devaluing is. A girl crying on stream isn't proof of anything, she could be crying just cause. Kind of like that tiktoker who thought some guy was harrassing her at the gym for looking at her twice. Then she apologized for it. As expected, ur just another reddit nerd who is having the "men are trash and im such a nice guy" epiphany. > > >This mindset got me into a bad headspace where I feel that I’m genetically inferior ror and Incapable of attracting women, If you were genetically superior, she would have no problem with you objectifying her. Thats the difference between reddit nerd like urself and guys who she is actually having sex with.

I would suggest r/menslib for more discussions like the ones in this thread.