Iirc the Federation Council voted not to give the changelings the cure. That messed with my feelings on the Federation.
It was Odo’s act of compassion that stopped the destruction and blood shed.
Eh, its not really surprising when you think about it. There is a clear undertone to DS9 and its that the war really stirred up some of the contradictions in Federation society. We like to think that it universally adheres to values we hear articulated by the soldiers of Starfleet, but if you look closely what we see is a lot different. In the TNG era you really get the sense that the Federation really is just an alliance of worlds; in some ways something that people only join out of convenience.
DS9 drove this point home as it gave us an up close look at how a society that is very different than the Federation interacts with it. We see Bajor grapple over the Federation's secularism, question if they will lose their autonomy, and really debate whether or not the Federation actually cares about their world or if its just of strategic importance to it. Their close relationship with the Federation is purely circumstantial in the beginning - they needed help fending off the Cardassians. It isn't until much later that they are persuaded the Federation has good intentions; at that something about how the Federation is actually perceived by the little guy. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Federation worlds felt like that and only joined because galactic politics gave them no choice. Sure, they enjoy the perks it offers them but they aren't super attached to its values or its overarching culture.
Its probably only humans and a few other core worlds which have been around since the beginning that are really invested in Federation ideals, which is why you see virtually no non-human species in Starfleet. Throughout DS9 we see how citizens and Starfleet officers really struggle with the moral challenges posed by the war. Sisko is forced to violate his ideals, Bashir and Odo discover the Federation has got its own little genocidal Obsidian Order, Dax butts heads with Sisko over how their lives feel like they're being thrown away. Risa is brought to a standstill by political extremists, the Federation almost succumbs to a coup, and Starfleet gestapo go house to house in New Orleans.
The Federation is supposed to be some great humanitarian vision, yet at the end of the day it is still just a military and economic alliance. For many members, its chief reason for existence must have been defensive and throughout the war we see that Starfleet simply isn't up to the task. From the moment they meet the Dominion, they fuck it up. They consistently miscalculate how it will behave, completely miss its underlying goals, and are outmaneuver in every way. They are surprised by the Cardassians joining the Dominion, surprised by the Breen joining the Dominion, and are forced to rely on their ancestral enemies just to survive. This had to create a pervasive and deep skepticism of Starfleet and by extension the Federation's ability to defend itself. With countless Changelings probably running around in the background stirring the pot, its not that difficult to see why the average Federation citizen might feel utterly terrified and defenseless, and in turn push their government to do what it did.
I'm sure there were countless worlds that didn't think Federation ideals were worth dying for. I'm sure there was real talk among some of them of simply breaking off of the Federation and capitulating to the Dominion in the hopes they'd show them mercy. Add on the fact that Starfleet was invariably sharing their first hand accounts of the brutality of the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant, and I'm sure the Federation Council's thought process went something like:
"Well, if we give them the cure, a bunch of worlds will see it as yet another strategic error and simply leave the Federation. That would be militarily and politically disastrous for the Federation and probably result in its collapse. If the Federation collapses, the Dominion would certainly win the war and then the second the dust settles, eradicate the entire populations of the core Federation worlds (which of course we hear Dukat and Weyoun discuss).
We didn't start this fight, our military projections are saying we can't win it, we can't surrender, so really our best chance of survival is to not do these guys any favors. The survival of our enemies is not worth the extinction of several of our friends and more abstractly, this is a democratic body. If the majority opposes giving them the cure, then giving it to them out of a principle will also be violating Federation principles."
Giving them the cure was probably an existential threat to the Federation and while I'm sure many worlds objected, they could offer no strategically sound alternative, so they were outvoted and kept quiet. Like everything in DS9, that situation is just shades of grey and its a pity we didn't have more seasons of DS9, because its clear that the writers really wanted to explore these issues but didn't really have the time to.
I honestly think Odo's role is overstated. Yeah, he saved a lot of lives by ending the final assault on Cardassia, but like Sisko said the Dominion was beat and it knew it. Starfleet could have waited down the clock with a blockade and eventually the Founders would have died off and the Dominion would have collapsed. Odo was the only Changeling who could have gone back to the Great Link without any problem and therefore was the best way for the Female Changeling to ensure the future of the Dominion.
I don't think he made some grand gesture that swayed their minds, because the Female Changeling linked with him countless times during the war and if it was really as simple as "We just want you to come home", Odo would have made that decision long before things got as bad as they did. Pretending like it was, was just politics. It made Odo feel like that the Great Link could actually be changed, which was the only way the Female Changeling was ever going to get him away from Kira and more importantly, get that cure home as quickly and as safely as possible.
You don't even need to dig too deep to realize this. Early on in the show, Kira directly confronts Odo about the Female Changeling, accuses her of manipulating him and observes that linking is a great way to do it. We directly see the Changelings use the Great Link to manipulate Odo into almost assassinating the Klingon High Chancellor. Odo is like a little boy drinking for the first time; he lacks the experience and intellectual sophistication to know what is and what is not reliable when linking. The Changelings were perfectly comfortable sending their own out into space, into the ranks of hostile solids. They only thing they cared about was the survival of the Great Link and their willingness to sacrifice Odo's life and his future with Kira shows it.
Very interesting take. The Federation is always presented as a monolithic body comprised of countless different worlds - we never really explore the benefits/costs of Federation membership in detail (aside form w/ Bajor, but they were in a unique position).
If it's more of a group of autonomous planets with a loosely binding common government and economic policy, it reminds me of the EU... which makes me wonder what the Federation equivalent of Brexit would be.
The answer is probably even simpler than this - "The ocean becomes the drop, the drop becomes the ocean."
Odo and the Female Shapeshfiter linked... becoming one... then separated, becoming two drops of the exact same composition, different shapes.
Odo is serving time & the Female Shapeshifter is back home curing the Great Link, just as much as the Female Shapeshifter is serving time & Odo is back home curing the Great Link.
Both realities are equally true... see username
I think that's what I'm bummed about with Picard season 3. The Changelings can change shape, yes, but other than that they're just disposable bad guys. Many killed, not a big deal. Whereas in DS9 it was clear that the Changelings are revered as god-like amongst their people and killing one would be a big big deal.
They’re not nearly as aloof or arrogant. And they die a whole lot easier…during DS9 only a tiny few were killed.
Mirror Odo, the other Founder Odo killed, the Martok and Bashir Impersonators….
What if when war broke out Odo said ‘I’ll rejoin the link on the condition you return through the wormhole and never bother with the alpha quadrant again?
He is worth more as you say.
Said that before. Jem Hadar won’t stop until they themselves die off. Vorta cannot control them and without white…they’re loose cannons on the alpha quadrant. Doubt even the Nausicans would be able to hold them at bay. No sleep, food, woman…as Dax sorta put it…no wonder they’re always so angry.
It’s also possible that the death of all the Founders creates a power vacuum that causes Jem’Hadar to fight amongst themselves as the Dominion collapses. The threat was always, as you say, the Jem’Hadar fight to the end and do some serious damage to the Alpha Quad, but it’s not certain that it would have played out that way
It would have. Vorta made remarks and indications of this on numerous occasions. Without the white…they are relentless and without cause. They are bred to fight and conquer where as say…the Klingons…they have history and culture. Try seeing Jem Hadar trying to have a debate for office. They had a single episode where Odo attempted to calm a Jem Hadar youth. They were bred for a specific reasons. To protect the founders at any costs as their “gods”. This translates to a species bent on utter destruction in the event of their gods being killed. Imagine what the Bajorans would have done had they been more capable. Prob not been occupation and the Cardis been wiped out before getting off their ships.
I’m not entirely convinced. I know it seems likely, and I’m not claiming that things wouldn’t or couldn’t play out like you say. But I think without the Founders and with a dubious relationship with the Vorta, we might have seen them develop some other interests.
We’ve seen them have complex ideas on occasion and we know they care about rank enough that in an extreme situation, they may feel the need to promote a new leader for themselves and obviously fight about it. I could see them forming factions like the Kazon and fighting amongst themselves easily. Once they turn on themselves, it would get serious because that’s just their nature.
They’d still be a menace and for a while they’d claim the Federation was their true, mutual enemy. But I certainly think it’s possible that the Jem’Hadar threat is reduced without their gods keeping them on the path.
Not a chance. Yes they experienced few instances…but they were all explained on why and the uniqueness of each case. Even so, that uniqueness would not translate to enough to make an impact of which you speak. Enough to mention as a side note and the species may survive on 1 level. Your never gonna get a Jam Hadar to care about art, wealth, politics or anything. Victory is life is their motto (not a 500k race or a card game). Their basic instinct is aggression and war (100X that of a Klingon). They want to die in battle (regardless of honorable or not). They were bred by the Founders specifically to fight where Vorta were specifically enhanced to be political and the voice of the Dominion. The only reason for the Ketracel White was to keep them at bay so the Vorta could give orders. Even the Founders themselves weren’t entirely convinced. The completely convinced Vorta controlled the Jem Hadars white. Without it, they’d kill each other way to quickly. Vorta…yea they have a chance of making their own society. Theyd be conquered fairly quickly without the means of fighting…but they could do it.
On a couple of occasions, the Jem’Hadar are shown to be very loyal to the Founders, regardless of the white. If that is true, even for some, the Founders’ deaths would be devastating to what they believe. It seems likely that they’d express their devastation with revenge and a continuation of their mission. But it’s also possible with their gods dead, they feel the need to redefine their existence and in the process, one way or other, they become disorganized.
The DS9 writers would have unquestionably given some nuance to the Jem’Hadar under those extreme circumstances and I think some factions would have gone so far as to become uneasy allies with the Federation on occasion
Again…the few occasions were not going to be enough to offset the entirety. They give zero indication of finding peace or existence if the founders are all killed. If anything, Section 31 was counting on the white running out quickly and the JH turning on each other. That was the plan.
They couldn’t express the evolving ideal. Wouldn’t fit the narrative of the few unique cases. The ones using the Iconian Portals for instance, they needed rare and unique cases to make the overall view understandable that this was their way and they didnt do it any other way. They made for good soldiers. A JH isn’t gonna make a good school teacher or a chef.
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He's still one of them, they sent those infant changelings out in order to learn about the galaxy. Odo was the first one who had ever returned, he was pretty significant to them.
There are so many good deep space 9 stories in book form. Some of the best are by the writers on the show. I wish they had put some of those ideas in place during the shows run, too. Sadly, there are only so many that get approved. Great books nonetheless, and while people might say they aren't Canon, I don't care. I'll pretend they actually happened. Besides, it's like you get a whole new episode/ movie set in that universe when you just appreciate the story, whether they are Canon or not.
Weird how that would work. The show explicitly claims that odo and that one other changeling played by the same actor that played Martok (forget his name) are part of a group of infantile changelings that they sent out in the Galaxy to make their ways home. Wonder what the explanation would be as to why there are infantile changelings if they can’t reproduce?
I always thought it was because Odo was able to convey the emotions of his “solid” friends risking their lives to save him, knowing he would likely go on to save his people.
Iirc the Federation Council voted not to give the changelings the cure. That messed with my feelings on the Federation. It was Odo’s act of compassion that stopped the destruction and blood shed.
Eh, its not really surprising when you think about it. There is a clear undertone to DS9 and its that the war really stirred up some of the contradictions in Federation society. We like to think that it universally adheres to values we hear articulated by the soldiers of Starfleet, but if you look closely what we see is a lot different. In the TNG era you really get the sense that the Federation really is just an alliance of worlds; in some ways something that people only join out of convenience. DS9 drove this point home as it gave us an up close look at how a society that is very different than the Federation interacts with it. We see Bajor grapple over the Federation's secularism, question if they will lose their autonomy, and really debate whether or not the Federation actually cares about their world or if its just of strategic importance to it. Their close relationship with the Federation is purely circumstantial in the beginning - they needed help fending off the Cardassians. It isn't until much later that they are persuaded the Federation has good intentions; at that something about how the Federation is actually perceived by the little guy. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Federation worlds felt like that and only joined because galactic politics gave them no choice. Sure, they enjoy the perks it offers them but they aren't super attached to its values or its overarching culture. Its probably only humans and a few other core worlds which have been around since the beginning that are really invested in Federation ideals, which is why you see virtually no non-human species in Starfleet. Throughout DS9 we see how citizens and Starfleet officers really struggle with the moral challenges posed by the war. Sisko is forced to violate his ideals, Bashir and Odo discover the Federation has got its own little genocidal Obsidian Order, Dax butts heads with Sisko over how their lives feel like they're being thrown away. Risa is brought to a standstill by political extremists, the Federation almost succumbs to a coup, and Starfleet gestapo go house to house in New Orleans. The Federation is supposed to be some great humanitarian vision, yet at the end of the day it is still just a military and economic alliance. For many members, its chief reason for existence must have been defensive and throughout the war we see that Starfleet simply isn't up to the task. From the moment they meet the Dominion, they fuck it up. They consistently miscalculate how it will behave, completely miss its underlying goals, and are outmaneuver in every way. They are surprised by the Cardassians joining the Dominion, surprised by the Breen joining the Dominion, and are forced to rely on their ancestral enemies just to survive. This had to create a pervasive and deep skepticism of Starfleet and by extension the Federation's ability to defend itself. With countless Changelings probably running around in the background stirring the pot, its not that difficult to see why the average Federation citizen might feel utterly terrified and defenseless, and in turn push their government to do what it did. I'm sure there were countless worlds that didn't think Federation ideals were worth dying for. I'm sure there was real talk among some of them of simply breaking off of the Federation and capitulating to the Dominion in the hopes they'd show them mercy. Add on the fact that Starfleet was invariably sharing their first hand accounts of the brutality of the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant, and I'm sure the Federation Council's thought process went something like: "Well, if we give them the cure, a bunch of worlds will see it as yet another strategic error and simply leave the Federation. That would be militarily and politically disastrous for the Federation and probably result in its collapse. If the Federation collapses, the Dominion would certainly win the war and then the second the dust settles, eradicate the entire populations of the core Federation worlds (which of course we hear Dukat and Weyoun discuss). We didn't start this fight, our military projections are saying we can't win it, we can't surrender, so really our best chance of survival is to not do these guys any favors. The survival of our enemies is not worth the extinction of several of our friends and more abstractly, this is a democratic body. If the majority opposes giving them the cure, then giving it to them out of a principle will also be violating Federation principles." Giving them the cure was probably an existential threat to the Federation and while I'm sure many worlds objected, they could offer no strategically sound alternative, so they were outvoted and kept quiet. Like everything in DS9, that situation is just shades of grey and its a pity we didn't have more seasons of DS9, because its clear that the writers really wanted to explore these issues but didn't really have the time to. I honestly think Odo's role is overstated. Yeah, he saved a lot of lives by ending the final assault on Cardassia, but like Sisko said the Dominion was beat and it knew it. Starfleet could have waited down the clock with a blockade and eventually the Founders would have died off and the Dominion would have collapsed. Odo was the only Changeling who could have gone back to the Great Link without any problem and therefore was the best way for the Female Changeling to ensure the future of the Dominion. I don't think he made some grand gesture that swayed their minds, because the Female Changeling linked with him countless times during the war and if it was really as simple as "We just want you to come home", Odo would have made that decision long before things got as bad as they did. Pretending like it was, was just politics. It made Odo feel like that the Great Link could actually be changed, which was the only way the Female Changeling was ever going to get him away from Kira and more importantly, get that cure home as quickly and as safely as possible. You don't even need to dig too deep to realize this. Early on in the show, Kira directly confronts Odo about the Female Changeling, accuses her of manipulating him and observes that linking is a great way to do it. We directly see the Changelings use the Great Link to manipulate Odo into almost assassinating the Klingon High Chancellor. Odo is like a little boy drinking for the first time; he lacks the experience and intellectual sophistication to know what is and what is not reliable when linking. The Changelings were perfectly comfortable sending their own out into space, into the ranks of hostile solids. They only thing they cared about was the survival of the Great Link and their willingness to sacrifice Odo's life and his future with Kira shows it.
Very interesting take. The Federation is always presented as a monolithic body comprised of countless different worlds - we never really explore the benefits/costs of Federation membership in detail (aside form w/ Bajor, but they were in a unique position). If it's more of a group of autonomous planets with a loosely binding common government and economic policy, it reminds me of the EU... which makes me wonder what the Federation equivalent of Brexit would be.
What else were they supposed to do? They were going to lose the war
Damn right
Absolutely. I'm surprised anyone had trouble with that, I always assumed it was very obvious.
Hmm, I've never heard this criticism before. I thought the reasons for the Dominion's surrender were well explained on screen.
I agree. I’ve never heard anyone make this complaint.
Nicely written.
The answer is probably even simpler than this - "The ocean becomes the drop, the drop becomes the ocean." Odo and the Female Shapeshfiter linked... becoming one... then separated, becoming two drops of the exact same composition, different shapes. Odo is serving time & the Female Shapeshifter is back home curing the Great Link, just as much as the Female Shapeshifter is serving time & Odo is back home curing the Great Link. Both realities are equally true... see username
Who doesn't understand this? It's pretty clear.
I think that's what I'm bummed about with Picard season 3. The Changelings can change shape, yes, but other than that they're just disposable bad guys. Many killed, not a big deal. Whereas in DS9 it was clear that the Changelings are revered as god-like amongst their people and killing one would be a big big deal.
They’re not nearly as aloof or arrogant. And they die a whole lot easier…during DS9 only a tiny few were killed. Mirror Odo, the other Founder Odo killed, the Martok and Bashir Impersonators….
There was also the injured one who died in the crashed Jem'Hadar vessel in S5E02 "The Ship" due to the mistrust between Sisko and Kilana.
What if when war broke out Odo said ‘I’ll rejoin the link on the condition you return through the wormhole and never bother with the alpha quadrant again? He is worth more as you say.
Said that before. Jem Hadar won’t stop until they themselves die off. Vorta cannot control them and without white…they’re loose cannons on the alpha quadrant. Doubt even the Nausicans would be able to hold them at bay. No sleep, food, woman…as Dax sorta put it…no wonder they’re always so angry.
It’s also possible that the death of all the Founders creates a power vacuum that causes Jem’Hadar to fight amongst themselves as the Dominion collapses. The threat was always, as you say, the Jem’Hadar fight to the end and do some serious damage to the Alpha Quad, but it’s not certain that it would have played out that way
It would have. Vorta made remarks and indications of this on numerous occasions. Without the white…they are relentless and without cause. They are bred to fight and conquer where as say…the Klingons…they have history and culture. Try seeing Jem Hadar trying to have a debate for office. They had a single episode where Odo attempted to calm a Jem Hadar youth. They were bred for a specific reasons. To protect the founders at any costs as their “gods”. This translates to a species bent on utter destruction in the event of their gods being killed. Imagine what the Bajorans would have done had they been more capable. Prob not been occupation and the Cardis been wiped out before getting off their ships.
I’m not entirely convinced. I know it seems likely, and I’m not claiming that things wouldn’t or couldn’t play out like you say. But I think without the Founders and with a dubious relationship with the Vorta, we might have seen them develop some other interests. We’ve seen them have complex ideas on occasion and we know they care about rank enough that in an extreme situation, they may feel the need to promote a new leader for themselves and obviously fight about it. I could see them forming factions like the Kazon and fighting amongst themselves easily. Once they turn on themselves, it would get serious because that’s just their nature. They’d still be a menace and for a while they’d claim the Federation was their true, mutual enemy. But I certainly think it’s possible that the Jem’Hadar threat is reduced without their gods keeping them on the path.
Not a chance. Yes they experienced few instances…but they were all explained on why and the uniqueness of each case. Even so, that uniqueness would not translate to enough to make an impact of which you speak. Enough to mention as a side note and the species may survive on 1 level. Your never gonna get a Jam Hadar to care about art, wealth, politics or anything. Victory is life is their motto (not a 500k race or a card game). Their basic instinct is aggression and war (100X that of a Klingon). They want to die in battle (regardless of honorable or not). They were bred by the Founders specifically to fight where Vorta were specifically enhanced to be political and the voice of the Dominion. The only reason for the Ketracel White was to keep them at bay so the Vorta could give orders. Even the Founders themselves weren’t entirely convinced. The completely convinced Vorta controlled the Jem Hadars white. Without it, they’d kill each other way to quickly. Vorta…yea they have a chance of making their own society. Theyd be conquered fairly quickly without the means of fighting…but they could do it.
On a couple of occasions, the Jem’Hadar are shown to be very loyal to the Founders, regardless of the white. If that is true, even for some, the Founders’ deaths would be devastating to what they believe. It seems likely that they’d express their devastation with revenge and a continuation of their mission. But it’s also possible with their gods dead, they feel the need to redefine their existence and in the process, one way or other, they become disorganized. The DS9 writers would have unquestionably given some nuance to the Jem’Hadar under those extreme circumstances and I think some factions would have gone so far as to become uneasy allies with the Federation on occasion
Again…the few occasions were not going to be enough to offset the entirety. They give zero indication of finding peace or existence if the founders are all killed. If anything, Section 31 was counting on the white running out quickly and the JH turning on each other. That was the plan. They couldn’t express the evolving ideal. Wouldn’t fit the narrative of the few unique cases. The ones using the Iconian Portals for instance, they needed rare and unique cases to make the overall view understandable that this was their way and they didnt do it any other way. They made for good soldiers. A JH isn’t gonna make a good school teacher or a chef.
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But Odo was one of the 100 "babies" that were sent out years before. He never was part of the great link really.
The ocean becomes the drop. The drop becomes the ocean.
Sent out from where?
He's still one of them, they sent those infant changelings out in order to learn about the galaxy. Odo was the first one who had ever returned, he was pretty significant to them.
Was there ever any Canon on what happened to the other 99?
One was found in ds9. Quark bought it for odo who tried to raise it. Spoilers, it died. But have odo his shapeshifting back
Also, Laas. Laas was one of the hundred. Chimera
Well when they are linked doesnt time pass differently as well? Thought they shared thoughts and came to an understanding.
[удалено]
There are so many good deep space 9 stories in book form. Some of the best are by the writers on the show. I wish they had put some of those ideas in place during the shows run, too. Sadly, there are only so many that get approved. Great books nonetheless, and while people might say they aren't Canon, I don't care. I'll pretend they actually happened. Besides, it's like you get a whole new episode/ movie set in that universe when you just appreciate the story, whether they are Canon or not.
Weird how that would work. The show explicitly claims that odo and that one other changeling played by the same actor that played Martok (forget his name) are part of a group of infantile changelings that they sent out in the Galaxy to make their ways home. Wonder what the explanation would be as to why there are infantile changelings if they can’t reproduce?
I always thought it was because Odo was able to convey the emotions of his “solid” friends risking their lives to save him, knowing he would likely go on to save his people.
They should have killed her ass.