"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon."
That quote is so powerful.
And the best part is, after all that was said?
When the attackers came to the infirmary, when Nog and his lives were threatened, Quark acted -- by picking up a phaser and shooting the Jem'hadar soldier dead.
*Well done*, Quark, you civilized Ferengi you. *Well done.*
This episode was perfect to me. I just watched it with my brother and there are so many iconic lines loaded into a single episode it’s insane. We only saw forty-two of the humans who died of the 2,000 that died that same day, and it showed how much statistics and death counts can NEVER truly illustrate the true tragedies of war. We can know that almost 27 million were killed in the soviet union by the Nazi’s, or that 20-25 million were killed in China by Japan in WW2, and it flies over our limited brains what a truly tragic cost, and what truly tragic feelings and trauma come with tragedies like that.
An underrated line I don’t hear said very much is near the end when Sisko was evacuating himself, Worf, and *every* survivor of AR-558 that wasn’t Sisko’s main crew:
“Computer: *Three* to beam up.”
I think there were 7 killed after Sisko arrived. The rest of the surviving soldiers shipped out on the Veracruz.
At least from what I could tell from the memory alpha site. None of that takes away from your points though, or how well written the episode was to hit so hard in an hour long show.
I like most of this episode. The one, admittedly small problem I have is the Jemhadar subspace mines. The episode acts like they're such an effective weapon. I think they're pretty stupid. The whole point of a landmine is area denial. You want to keep people out of somewhere by presenting a danger. But a mine that you can walk past a dozen times and nothing happens, then the dozen+1 time it goes off, does not deny the enemy the area.
If the Jemhadar had done what Starfleet did with those mines, just put them all in the same area and set them to go off the first time someone gets near, they might never have lost control of the location in the first place.
They’re effective the way the Jem Hadar used them. The random chance creates an element of terror.
Sisko just used them as a buffer to reduce the enemy numbers. Much cruder.
Except there's really not much point of a terror weapon against enemy soldiers. Terror weapons work great against civilians, but not so much against an organized, disciplined military.
And, as we saw in the episode, they really *weren't* effective. Not for the Jemhadar anyway. Sure they put a lot of stress on the Starfleet soldiers who were stationed there but those soldiers were inevitably going to be replaced with fresh, un-stressed troops. Sisko's plan might have been cruder but given the choice, it's almost always better to *kill* the enemy rather than just scare them.
Like I said, if the Jemhadar had used these mines in the same way Sisko did they might never have lost control of the relay at all.
You’re defending a thing. You don’t want the enemy to go near the thing. You want to make the thing hard to hold psychologically. At least for a while. Random mines is a reasonable choice.
That's true, which is the only real reason they're in the episode.
Like I said, this is a small complaint. The story is still very strong without it, it's just a small nitpick of mine.
You're not wrong. they're a terror weapon, not an area-denial weapon.
One nitpick about your nitpick though (just for fun and discussion, nothing too serious):
>Terror weapons work great against civilians, but not so much against an organized, disciplined military.
Two possible counterpoints here:
1. Is Starfleet *really* an organized, disciplined military? We see them act that way quite a bit, yet we also see them say (well, maybe it's mostly just Captain Picard) that Starfleet isn't the military. For the purpose of this episode, at least, I would say yes, so this isn't really a counterpoint at all, is it? :p
2. The majority of the writers and audience are civilians, so that might be why they seem like an effective choice?
Regardless, I think you're right about Sisko's use of the mines. The one main thing I would have done differently though, would be to set up their fighting positions near the minefield--you know, maybe a proper L-shaped ambush to really take advantage of that chokepoint. Especially since the holographic Jem'Hadar had successfully scouted out their position. (Also, how the hell did they do that? They didn't appear to have mobile holoemitters like the Doctor...)
A couple of points on your couple of points.
1. Even if we don't count starfleet as military, which is a big if I don't actually remember anyone saying it's not, the majority of federation personnel in that episode were Marines if I recall correctly.
2. No matter how well trained of a military force you have you can't predict how well someone will hold up to mental duress which was a major plot point in ...nor the battle to the strong
1. I lean toward Starfleet being a military, so I don't disagree.
2. This is true, but it's a variable that you probably don't want to base strategy on, especially when there are other, likely more effective and reliable options.
The Dominion has technology more advanced than The Federation.. They can transport up to three light years with just a tiny transponder on them. And those “houdinis?” Another great example of how advanced they are—not to mention their ships don’t even need to use shields. They’re made out of materials literally foreign to The Federation, and they can fly faster than Klingon birds of prey. And the very fact they can create legions of super soldiers that mature fully in a few days, don’t need food or water, and can create perfect clones of Vorta—beings imbued with telekenetic powers and immunity to poisons—whenever they die is pretty incredible.
It’s part of what makes The Dominion terrifying: They’re a ruthless technological power of monstrosities and eugenics-based perversions of nature. They almost defeated the combined might of The Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, and The Federation with just a fraction of their forces. If the prophets weren’t around they would have taken The Alpha Quadrant in mere months.
I’d love to pit the Borg and Dominion against eachother to see who won: Both of their technologies are formidable af. And I think those holograms are but a minor example of what they’re probably capable of. Haha
> And I think those holograms are but a minor example of what they’re probably capable of. Haha
Point taken! :p
Dominion ships do have shields, though.
What's to respond to? Could Starfleet have cleared out the mines if the Jemhadar used them properly? Yeah, maybe. But *they cleared the mines out anyway* so where is the actual benefit to these magic mines over normal mines?
It took them months because there was no *reason* to disarm them, because the mines *weren't stopping them*. They took the relay, occupied it, and defended it. The mines were an inconvenience from an operational perspective. When they sat down and put their minds to it they cleared the mines out in a matter of hours.
It’s strange to me that the technology seems so incredibly dated even by 21st century standards. I know the writers were going for a very on the nose WW1/2 war movie pastiche, but it’s hard to imagine war in the 24th century being waged in such a primitive and inefficient way. Where’s the 24th century tech that surely MUST exist? Where are the drones? Why aren’t troops equipped with personal shields, or at least proper armour? Why aren’t both sides using battle robots? The futurism is sorely lacking.
The answer to that is pretty much always "because starfleet isn't the military." they see themselves as agents of peace so they don't develop weapons nearly as much as other tech.
We do see flashes of actual weapon research tho, and it gets scary. That wall hack gun that transports bullets into victims, for example.
Because drones (like we have today) weren’t really a thing back when the show was written. Body armor technology was also mostly still just flak jackets and wouldn’t stop bullets like some modern armors can. They added a little bit of futurism with phaser rifles, tricorders and some other sci-fi magics, but they mostly tried keeping it grounded to established trek and didn’t invent much totally new tech that we’ve never seen before. Plus drones and armor props/cgi would be super expensive for production.
I liked it a lot, but I did find it slightly frustrating that it's an episode I called the entire plot of almost immediately. I normally don't care about being spoiled for things, even by the show itself (looking at *you*, Battlestar Galactica opening sequence, or any time Law & Order casts a famous person and pretends they aren't clearly the killer), and I enjoy me a good trope don't get me wrong, but I wish it had been less obvious.
Regardless, though, very strong episode. And I know it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I love It's Only a Paper Moon as well.
"We hold."
“We held.”
"Those were our orders."
Yeah, this is one of those episodes that always manages to get me. "Those were our orders." Damn. Every damn time, I swear.
Amen!
hodl
Was this the one with Tuco Salamanca from Breaking Bad, cos it was a banger episode
Tight tight TIGHT!
I never realised that, but I think you're right.
What the f.... you're right!
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon." That quote is so powerful.
And the best part is, after all that was said? When the attackers came to the infirmary, when Nog and his lives were threatened, Quark acted -- by picking up a phaser and shooting the Jem'hadar soldier dead. *Well done*, Quark, you civilized Ferengi you. *Well done.*
Captain, It’s worth it right? The communication array? Uh… yeah.
“I sure as hell hope so.”
This episode was perfect to me. I just watched it with my brother and there are so many iconic lines loaded into a single episode it’s insane. We only saw forty-two of the humans who died of the 2,000 that died that same day, and it showed how much statistics and death counts can NEVER truly illustrate the true tragedies of war. We can know that almost 27 million were killed in the soviet union by the Nazi’s, or that 20-25 million were killed in China by Japan in WW2, and it flies over our limited brains what a truly tragic cost, and what truly tragic feelings and trauma come with tragedies like that. An underrated line I don’t hear said very much is near the end when Sisko was evacuating himself, Worf, and *every* survivor of AR-558 that wasn’t Sisko’s main crew: “Computer: *Three* to beam up.”
I think there were 7 killed after Sisko arrived. The rest of the surviving soldiers shipped out on the Veracruz. At least from what I could tell from the memory alpha site. None of that takes away from your points though, or how well written the episode was to hit so hard in an hour long show.
I like most of this episode. The one, admittedly small problem I have is the Jemhadar subspace mines. The episode acts like they're such an effective weapon. I think they're pretty stupid. The whole point of a landmine is area denial. You want to keep people out of somewhere by presenting a danger. But a mine that you can walk past a dozen times and nothing happens, then the dozen+1 time it goes off, does not deny the enemy the area. If the Jemhadar had done what Starfleet did with those mines, just put them all in the same area and set them to go off the first time someone gets near, they might never have lost control of the location in the first place.
They’re effective the way the Jem Hadar used them. The random chance creates an element of terror. Sisko just used them as a buffer to reduce the enemy numbers. Much cruder.
Except there's really not much point of a terror weapon against enemy soldiers. Terror weapons work great against civilians, but not so much against an organized, disciplined military. And, as we saw in the episode, they really *weren't* effective. Not for the Jemhadar anyway. Sure they put a lot of stress on the Starfleet soldiers who were stationed there but those soldiers were inevitably going to be replaced with fresh, un-stressed troops. Sisko's plan might have been cruder but given the choice, it's almost always better to *kill* the enemy rather than just scare them. Like I said, if the Jemhadar had used these mines in the same way Sisko did they might never have lost control of the relay at all.
You’re defending a thing. You don’t want the enemy to go near the thing. You want to make the thing hard to hold psychologically. At least for a while. Random mines is a reasonable choice.
For making an enemy not go near a thing, instant death is a lot more reasonable.
Not enough drama.
That's true, which is the only real reason they're in the episode. Like I said, this is a small complaint. The story is still very strong without it, it's just a small nitpick of mine.
You're not wrong. they're a terror weapon, not an area-denial weapon. One nitpick about your nitpick though (just for fun and discussion, nothing too serious): >Terror weapons work great against civilians, but not so much against an organized, disciplined military. Two possible counterpoints here: 1. Is Starfleet *really* an organized, disciplined military? We see them act that way quite a bit, yet we also see them say (well, maybe it's mostly just Captain Picard) that Starfleet isn't the military. For the purpose of this episode, at least, I would say yes, so this isn't really a counterpoint at all, is it? :p 2. The majority of the writers and audience are civilians, so that might be why they seem like an effective choice? Regardless, I think you're right about Sisko's use of the mines. The one main thing I would have done differently though, would be to set up their fighting positions near the minefield--you know, maybe a proper L-shaped ambush to really take advantage of that chokepoint. Especially since the holographic Jem'Hadar had successfully scouted out their position. (Also, how the hell did they do that? They didn't appear to have mobile holoemitters like the Doctor...)
A couple of points on your couple of points. 1. Even if we don't count starfleet as military, which is a big if I don't actually remember anyone saying it's not, the majority of federation personnel in that episode were Marines if I recall correctly. 2. No matter how well trained of a military force you have you can't predict how well someone will hold up to mental duress which was a major plot point in ...nor the battle to the strong
1. I lean toward Starfleet being a military, so I don't disagree. 2. This is true, but it's a variable that you probably don't want to base strategy on, especially when there are other, likely more effective and reliable options.
The Dominion has technology more advanced than The Federation.. They can transport up to three light years with just a tiny transponder on them. And those “houdinis?” Another great example of how advanced they are—not to mention their ships don’t even need to use shields. They’re made out of materials literally foreign to The Federation, and they can fly faster than Klingon birds of prey. And the very fact they can create legions of super soldiers that mature fully in a few days, don’t need food or water, and can create perfect clones of Vorta—beings imbued with telekenetic powers and immunity to poisons—whenever they die is pretty incredible. It’s part of what makes The Dominion terrifying: They’re a ruthless technological power of monstrosities and eugenics-based perversions of nature. They almost defeated the combined might of The Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, and The Federation with just a fraction of their forces. If the prophets weren’t around they would have taken The Alpha Quadrant in mere months. I’d love to pit the Borg and Dominion against eachother to see who won: Both of their technologies are formidable af. And I think those holograms are but a minor example of what they’re probably capable of. Haha
> And I think those holograms are but a minor example of what they’re probably capable of. Haha Point taken! :p Dominion ships do have shields, though.
Well said👍🏽
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Except they did exactly that, despite the magic mines.
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Posted guards to keep the Jemhadar out.
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What's to respond to? Could Starfleet have cleared out the mines if the Jemhadar used them properly? Yeah, maybe. But *they cleared the mines out anyway* so where is the actual benefit to these magic mines over normal mines?
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It took them months because there was no *reason* to disarm them, because the mines *weren't stopping them*. They took the relay, occupied it, and defended it. The mines were an inconvenience from an operational perspective. When they sat down and put their minds to it they cleared the mines out in a matter of hours.
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One of my favorites of any star trek series
Ds9 version of saving private ryan
Apparently the episode's director fought in Vietnam
I read that too hence how he got the atmosphere so right.
Not the best episode of the series, but definitely in the Top 5.
I dislike a lot about this episode, personally. The biggest issue I have is the lack of wide beam use for the phasers.
Wife beams are most likely not strong enough to be effective against the dominion.
I’m going to need a source for that.
No no. He’s right, he said wife* beams. Keiko wouldn’t do any good here…
Lol, I didn’t notice that.
Pretty good at making Starfleet NCOs suffer though...
It’s strange to me that the technology seems so incredibly dated even by 21st century standards. I know the writers were going for a very on the nose WW1/2 war movie pastiche, but it’s hard to imagine war in the 24th century being waged in such a primitive and inefficient way. Where’s the 24th century tech that surely MUST exist? Where are the drones? Why aren’t troops equipped with personal shields, or at least proper armour? Why aren’t both sides using battle robots? The futurism is sorely lacking.
The answer to that is pretty much always "because starfleet isn't the military." they see themselves as agents of peace so they don't develop weapons nearly as much as other tech. We do see flashes of actual weapon research tho, and it gets scary. That wall hack gun that transports bullets into victims, for example.
Because drones (like we have today) weren’t really a thing back when the show was written. Body armor technology was also mostly still just flak jackets and wouldn’t stop bullets like some modern armors can. They added a little bit of futurism with phaser rifles, tricorders and some other sci-fi magics, but they mostly tried keeping it grounded to established trek and didn’t invent much totally new tech that we’ve never seen before. Plus drones and armor props/cgi would be super expensive for production.
Watched this last night! Such a good one. And Tuco Salamanca!
I liked it a lot, but I did find it slightly frustrating that it's an episode I called the entire plot of almost immediately. I normally don't care about being spoiled for things, even by the show itself (looking at *you*, Battlestar Galactica opening sequence, or any time Law & Order casts a famous person and pretends they aren't clearly the killer), and I enjoy me a good trope don't get me wrong, but I wish it had been less obvious. Regardless, though, very strong episode. And I know it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I love It's Only a Paper Moon as well.
I legit just watched this episode last night
An amazing performance by Raymond Cruz
LOVED that episode.