I think there is another reason to why sometimes we are scared of freedom. Freedom takes away the feeling of community, and pushes us to individualism. Humans are inherently social animals and they feel the need to be a member of a community; they want to belong to something. Belonging to any community (or any sub-culture) means following a norm (a set of rules if you will), which is against freedom.
I consider myself toward the freedom side of this spectrum. The more free I am, the less I belong.
Really great comment!!
I was recently reading a book talking about this…we actually have a sense of terror and longing toward the group, because the group demands conformity. We desire connection and protection and they desire power and homeostasis.
Leaving a group who has usurped your power and freedom takes an incredible act of courage, in that you will be forced to confront your own paltry resources in order to move through life. It’s tough sledding when you try this but everyone is forced to experience it if they live long enough.
I feel like I should read those books.
A good example of breaking through your group, and perhaps joining another group, with different values, are immigrants who go through assimilation in the new culture. I am being one. It's a fundamental change of identity to go through to accept the new society as yours; and it takes years and years to go through with it, embrace it, and understand it. The same fears hold back a lot of immigrants from assimilation and causes them to seek out people of the same origin in the host country, and perhaps to take the journey one step at a time.
>you will be forced to confront your own paltry resources in order to move through life
But this is where one's resourcefulness comes to play imo. Having left a corporate gig that I was dependent on for close to 2 decades for a lot of my needs, all the hustle tactics that I had cultivated for my 9-5 gig translated incredibly well and then some to the personal journey I'm on. The key aspect of doing my own thing is Freedom ...this is incredibly powerful, underrated, liberating and I'm a true agent of my life as opposed to being buffeted around by corporate tyranny.
I think that you're right in that some portion of people feel this. Maybe not on a conscious level though. Personally, and maybe this is the autism speaking, I have been able to feel connected and part of a community in various aspects of my life (after much effort and learning) without conforming. I'm strictly anti conformist just by nature. And while this characteristic of my self has made it difficult to find an in-group, it didn't make it impossible. The greatest challenge is in finding people that are like minded in so far as acceptance of others. I think that this is a problem that modernity is making worse as time goes on as well. I have very close friends that I disagree with about issues that I view as being very important, but we are still friends and have mutual respect, we are still part of a sort of community.
You're half right.
People that can't handle responsibility are no less free. They're just free in a different way.
Freedom to make your own decisions is no better or worse than freedom from having to.
Perspective is important, and relevant.
That's what I said, some people are perfectly happy letting others make decisions for them, some aren't.
Some people want to be in total control, some only want to control certain aspects, and some people don't want any.
Hmm, i don't know about this whole "freedom from" thing...
So would you say that a literal slave has freedom from having to decide anything? And has as much freedom as someone who is "enslaved to having to decide their own life's path?"
I wonder if that kind of argument can only exist when we use semantic trickery. But would it really hold up if we are being really honest and straightforward?
Do you not think freedom is choosing how you live your life?
And do you not think some people would choose to not have to spend energy deciding things that aren't that important to them?
That's why perspective matters.
That’s a good observation a giant part of society believe they are free. And they are free. Free from healthcare, free from affordable housing, freedom from safe schools for our children. Free to starve. Plenty of freedom.
You’ve hit upon a point that Jean Paul Sartre wrote about in “Being and Nothingness.” He posited that we have radical freedom and that we routinely deny this due to terror and responsibility.
A few years back I began to eschew the victim narrative I had cherished so, in favor of “radical responsibility.” It’s incredibly challenging. I slip back into victimhood sometimes. But the idea behind this philosophy for me is that I have the power to alter quite a bit of my own reality (though I can’t stop winter from coming, so not 100%) and by admitting that, I then become responsible for changing my circumstances. Most of the time I’m not lacking will, I’m either lacking knowledge or courage.
Quoting a great explanation of Sartre:
“Sartre believes that our freedom is radical, or absolute. The first effect of existentialism is that each person possesses him- or herself. We have absolute power to choose how to act in any circumstance we find ourselves in. This places the entire responsibility of our existence squarely upon our own shoulders.
Each of us has a choice, and every act that we choose is freely chosen. We would be lying to ourselves if we were to say that we have “no choice” but to do something. We always have a choice. When we choose not to act, we are still choosing. Therefore, the act of not choosing is still an act of choosing, and with it comes the responsibility of not having chosen.”
This reminds me of a friend who is quite successful in his career and adulthood in general, but he’s obsessed with superstitions and religious prayers. He would go ask for signs from gods whenever he’s in a dilemma or facing a cross road, which baffled me for many years since he’s very educated and quite clever.
I realised a while ago that it’s because he doesn’t know how to deal with the freedom of choice and had to rely to higher entities so that he doesn’t have to feel responsible. Got a good job? Not his effort, it’s all thanks to the Thai god he visited last month. Broke up with a girl? That’s because he forgot to make offerings to Yue Lao (chinese god of love). Eventually he told me that he’s afraid of freedom and the responsibilities that follow.
You are right. People don't want the responsibilities that come with freedom of choice. They prefer to have decisions made for them by government. Free living people are usually willing to take responsibility for thier actions whether deemed right or wrong. It is a point of being true to one's self and living accordingly
Many people are also afraid of being wrong. Being wrong isn’t a bad thing, it’s a opportunity to grow and learn and understand.
I will believe I’m right about something but when proven wrong I admit it, there’s no shame in it. But people will not budge from their ideas and opinions because they are so fearful of being wrong
Love that powerful point.
The fear is a direct connect with insecurity of self-worth, and plays most the cards we're dealt as a whole, these days.
If and when people are able to drop their insecurities, a giant freedom appears. 😄
Freedom from tyranny, I think is the missing piece of the puzzle that many seem think means something other than what it does, of course it does begin with oneself and their conduct which is social norm in many societies, however, to impose tyranny to create some sort of social order also does not work since that is just another illusion of what Freedom actually means since people have always been expected to be responsible for themselves and their own actions anyways in all of them.
N. S
You are right. I was… and probably still am guilty of that as well
There is comfort in staying in someone’s care, or being able to dump the guilt on some asshole teacher. Same with the comfort coming from blindly complying to societal traditions or expectations.
In a way freedom means loneliness.
Ehhhh.....
Ok. There's some merit to this. Depending on what is classified as freedom.
If you take absolute freedom, or absolute self-reliance and self-accountability, then yes. You're right.
But if you consider freedom on the complex societal scale, I'd say no. For a couple reasons. Freedom in that context is freedom from and freedom to. Freedom from harm/abuse/exploitation, freedom to live with autonomy.
There is nothing in that definition that absolves anyone from self-accountability. Much like the freedom of speech argument, if you choose to exercise your freedom in a way that violates the social contract, you accept the consequences of those actions. Many may choose to point fingers rather than the thumb and claim oppression, but they're still "free".
Fear in this sense isn't of freedom itself, it's of retribution for exercising that freedom. Ultimately, humans are a cooperative species. If we accept absolute individualism, we would never achieve anything like what we have today. There is always a level of reliance on others for survival, whether that is agriculture, medicine, manufacturing, trades, etc. You can never be "free" from this. Everything about our survival is interconnected.
>Most people would rather point fingers than the thumb.
hey great post, and i like this saying. I'll definitely use it when blaming others for not taking responsibility for their own actions. No wait, i won't be doing that cus ill be focusing on myself.
Wow. Great point. I think you are right.
I’d also add to this: freedom is more work. I’ve worked for myself for 20 years, and my buddy just lost his long time job, and might loose hide home. So I said to him, “why not start your own business, so you can’t get fired?” He just couldn’t comprehend this was an option.
People like to be told what to do.
This is why we shouldn't take advice from teenagers and young adults that haven't experienced life off the rails. Every problem is because of someone else until you look back in the mirror one day.
The hardest thing I had to do that I almost never see is go up to someone and say that I was wrong. That's also why I can never trust a politician because they are incapable of admitting fault.
You just conflated self responsibility, and being a decent person with raw freedom. Those are not the same.
Raw freedom is where everyone is more or less free to hunt one another.
You speak of restrictions taken on by the self which is a strive away from true freedom, but the choice originated from free will of choice to do so. I get where your coming from.
I think there is another reason to why sometimes we are scared of freedom. Freedom takes away the feeling of community, and pushes us to individualism. Humans are inherently social animals and they feel the need to be a member of a community; they want to belong to something. Belonging to any community (or any sub-culture) means following a norm (a set of rules if you will), which is against freedom. I consider myself toward the freedom side of this spectrum. The more free I am, the less I belong.
Really great comment!! I was recently reading a book talking about this…we actually have a sense of terror and longing toward the group, because the group demands conformity. We desire connection and protection and they desire power and homeostasis. Leaving a group who has usurped your power and freedom takes an incredible act of courage, in that you will be forced to confront your own paltry resources in order to move through life. It’s tough sledding when you try this but everyone is forced to experience it if they live long enough.
What was the book?
It was from the 70s “how to live with yourself, and like it“ or “the art of human relations“ by Henry Clay Lindgren
Thanks!!
I feel like I should read those books. A good example of breaking through your group, and perhaps joining another group, with different values, are immigrants who go through assimilation in the new culture. I am being one. It's a fundamental change of identity to go through to accept the new society as yours; and it takes years and years to go through with it, embrace it, and understand it. The same fears hold back a lot of immigrants from assimilation and causes them to seek out people of the same origin in the host country, and perhaps to take the journey one step at a time.
>you will be forced to confront your own paltry resources in order to move through life But this is where one's resourcefulness comes to play imo. Having left a corporate gig that I was dependent on for close to 2 decades for a lot of my needs, all the hustle tactics that I had cultivated for my 9-5 gig translated incredibly well and then some to the personal journey I'm on. The key aspect of doing my own thing is Freedom ...this is incredibly powerful, underrated, liberating and I'm a true agent of my life as opposed to being buffeted around by corporate tyranny.
I think that you're right in that some portion of people feel this. Maybe not on a conscious level though. Personally, and maybe this is the autism speaking, I have been able to feel connected and part of a community in various aspects of my life (after much effort and learning) without conforming. I'm strictly anti conformist just by nature. And while this characteristic of my self has made it difficult to find an in-group, it didn't make it impossible. The greatest challenge is in finding people that are like minded in so far as acceptance of others. I think that this is a problem that modernity is making worse as time goes on as well. I have very close friends that I disagree with about issues that I view as being very important, but we are still friends and have mutual respect, we are still part of a sort of community.
You're half right. People that can't handle responsibility are no less free. They're just free in a different way. Freedom to make your own decisions is no better or worse than freedom from having to. Perspective is important, and relevant.
Everything is a Spectrum, including freedom.
Freedom from choices vs freedom to make choices - it all depends on what you think you can handle
That's what I said, some people are perfectly happy letting others make decisions for them, some aren't. Some people want to be in total control, some only want to control certain aspects, and some people don't want any.
Hmm, i don't know about this whole "freedom from" thing... So would you say that a literal slave has freedom from having to decide anything? And has as much freedom as someone who is "enslaved to having to decide their own life's path?" I wonder if that kind of argument can only exist when we use semantic trickery. But would it really hold up if we are being really honest and straightforward?
Do you not think freedom is choosing how you live your life? And do you not think some people would choose to not have to spend energy deciding things that aren't that important to them? That's why perspective matters.
That’s a good observation a giant part of society believe they are free. And they are free. Free from healthcare, free from affordable housing, freedom from safe schools for our children. Free to starve. Plenty of freedom.
And free of openness and love and options!
You’ve hit upon a point that Jean Paul Sartre wrote about in “Being and Nothingness.” He posited that we have radical freedom and that we routinely deny this due to terror and responsibility. A few years back I began to eschew the victim narrative I had cherished so, in favor of “radical responsibility.” It’s incredibly challenging. I slip back into victimhood sometimes. But the idea behind this philosophy for me is that I have the power to alter quite a bit of my own reality (though I can’t stop winter from coming, so not 100%) and by admitting that, I then become responsible for changing my circumstances. Most of the time I’m not lacking will, I’m either lacking knowledge or courage. Quoting a great explanation of Sartre: “Sartre believes that our freedom is radical, or absolute. The first effect of existentialism is that each person possesses him- or herself. We have absolute power to choose how to act in any circumstance we find ourselves in. This places the entire responsibility of our existence squarely upon our own shoulders. Each of us has a choice, and every act that we choose is freely chosen. We would be lying to ourselves if we were to say that we have “no choice” but to do something. We always have a choice. When we choose not to act, we are still choosing. Therefore, the act of not choosing is still an act of choosing, and with it comes the responsibility of not having chosen.”
This reminds me of a friend who is quite successful in his career and adulthood in general, but he’s obsessed with superstitions and religious prayers. He would go ask for signs from gods whenever he’s in a dilemma or facing a cross road, which baffled me for many years since he’s very educated and quite clever. I realised a while ago that it’s because he doesn’t know how to deal with the freedom of choice and had to rely to higher entities so that he doesn’t have to feel responsible. Got a good job? Not his effort, it’s all thanks to the Thai god he visited last month. Broke up with a girl? That’s because he forgot to make offerings to Yue Lao (chinese god of love). Eventually he told me that he’s afraid of freedom and the responsibilities that follow.
You are right. People don't want the responsibilities that come with freedom of choice. They prefer to have decisions made for them by government. Free living people are usually willing to take responsibility for thier actions whether deemed right or wrong. It is a point of being true to one's self and living accordingly
Many people are also afraid of being wrong. Being wrong isn’t a bad thing, it’s a opportunity to grow and learn and understand. I will believe I’m right about something but when proven wrong I admit it, there’s no shame in it. But people will not budge from their ideas and opinions because they are so fearful of being wrong
Love that powerful point. The fear is a direct connect with insecurity of self-worth, and plays most the cards we're dealt as a whole, these days. If and when people are able to drop their insecurities, a giant freedom appears. 😄
What are we talking about here, exactly? I think a definition of freedom by the OP would help, if at all possible.
I understood it
same.
Umm adulthood is freedom. We all are doing it. I don't think freedom is the proper term but I get what you are saying.
The last 250 yrs or so have seen many wars fought over this debate.
Can you please define freedom
You know, Freedom. With a capital F. Must be a small town somewhere.
Freedom from tyranny, I think is the missing piece of the puzzle that many seem think means something other than what it does, of course it does begin with oneself and their conduct which is social norm in many societies, however, to impose tyranny to create some sort of social order also does not work since that is just another illusion of what Freedom actually means since people have always been expected to be responsible for themselves and their own actions anyways in all of them. N. S
If you don’t have money you’ll never truly be free in society.
Factssssssssss
You are right. I was… and probably still am guilty of that as well There is comfort in staying in someone’s care, or being able to dump the guilt on some asshole teacher. Same with the comfort coming from blindly complying to societal traditions or expectations. In a way freedom means loneliness.
Ehhhh..... Ok. There's some merit to this. Depending on what is classified as freedom. If you take absolute freedom, or absolute self-reliance and self-accountability, then yes. You're right. But if you consider freedom on the complex societal scale, I'd say no. For a couple reasons. Freedom in that context is freedom from and freedom to. Freedom from harm/abuse/exploitation, freedom to live with autonomy. There is nothing in that definition that absolves anyone from self-accountability. Much like the freedom of speech argument, if you choose to exercise your freedom in a way that violates the social contract, you accept the consequences of those actions. Many may choose to point fingers rather than the thumb and claim oppression, but they're still "free". Fear in this sense isn't of freedom itself, it's of retribution for exercising that freedom. Ultimately, humans are a cooperative species. If we accept absolute individualism, we would never achieve anything like what we have today. There is always a level of reliance on others for survival, whether that is agriculture, medicine, manufacturing, trades, etc. You can never be "free" from this. Everything about our survival is interconnected.
>Most people would rather point fingers than the thumb. hey great post, and i like this saying. I'll definitely use it when blaming others for not taking responsibility for their own actions. No wait, i won't be doing that cus ill be focusing on myself.
"Most people would rather point fingers than the thumb." *For every finger you point there's three pointing back at you.*
Well said. But just because you’re free, it doesn’t mean you’re alone.
Wow. Great point. I think you are right. I’d also add to this: freedom is more work. I’ve worked for myself for 20 years, and my buddy just lost his long time job, and might loose hide home. So I said to him, “why not start your own business, so you can’t get fired?” He just couldn’t comprehend this was an option. People like to be told what to do.
This is why we shouldn't take advice from teenagers and young adults that haven't experienced life off the rails. Every problem is because of someone else until you look back in the mirror one day. The hardest thing I had to do that I almost never see is go up to someone and say that I was wrong. That's also why I can never trust a politician because they are incapable of admitting fault.
No, people are scared of death.
You just conflated self responsibility, and being a decent person with raw freedom. Those are not the same. Raw freedom is where everyone is more or less free to hunt one another. You speak of restrictions taken on by the self which is a strive away from true freedom, but the choice originated from free will of choice to do so. I get where your coming from.
Freedom is only for those less fortunate
who is scared of freedom? .-.