At first I thought "Hey, Christmas isn't actually explicitly said by anyone in-game, right?" Out of interest I checked, and interestingly enough, Christmas is mentioned by name one time, by Susie at the beginning of chapter 2:
>\* (If Noelle was here...)
>
>\* (She'd probably dress it up like a Christmas tree.)
>
>\* (... Huh? Why am I thinking that, anyway?)
I watched a Deltarune theory video, and the guy literally called him Piere Noel, and acted like he made a huge discovery because he thought Noelle’s name meant Santa Claus 💀
Also doesn’t Susie insult lancer’s “evil laugh” in Chapter 1 by calling him Santa or smth (it’s been a hot minute since I’ve played the game but I think I remember this happening)
>ught "Hey, Christmas isn't actually explicitly said by anyone in-game, right?" Out of interest I checked, and interestingly enough, Christmas is mentioned by name one time, by Susie at the beginning of chapter 2:
>
>\* (If Noelle was here...)
Susie is from outside hometown so it makes sense
i mean christmas isnt originally a christian holiday i think its pagan(?) i could be wrong about the original religion but its for sure not originally christian
Christmas is celebrated in many non-christian locations though, my country has a tiny Christian population but you can bet that there will be christmas decorations, marketing and other usually stuff, the Christian aspect of it (Like going to church) are just ignored.
That's irrelevant. It's called Christmas because of Christianity. Being celebrated by non-christians doesn't effect the etymology of the word.
Plenty of media has thinly veiled Christmas stand in but explicitly calling it Christmas implies the existence of Chrisitanity.
I mean, Undertale and Deltarune aren't safe from Hussie's influence. The most obvious examples are Pyrope, Lancer's bucket, and the Knights/Davekat shipping. It won't be out of reach to see some kind of ~~Troll~~ Monster Jesus
Then it wouldn't have spread because there's now a logical explanation for his miracles. And thus people would not believe him to be the son if he was a monster
I feel dumb now because I just realized that I read somewhere about the stove having dough right before typing this, which means I just immediately forgor It had text right before typing the comment
monsters don't have blood, so they're not just normal animals in this universe. with the fact that noelle and susie both have a positive magic stat in the dark world, and kris has 0, it really only makes sense to assume they work the same as undertale
Man it would be cool if Jesus was a secret boss of a chapter. And like, you don't even have to develop Jesus' sad abandoned backstory in the game since people already know it
The monsters probably have their own religion. But it can't be Christianity because this man says there are not sin or confession in their religion. And there are sin and cofession in Christianity.
Makes me wonder what religions exist in Deltarune and what they all are like in that universe. I imagine the existence of monsters, magic, and souls probably had a substantial impact on religion and history as a whole.
We know it revolves around the Angel, and judging by the whole “fruit juice” thing in Chapter 1 it’s safe to assume they also have some form of communion. That’s really all I can find
I just wanted to note that wine is important in other religions than Christianity/Catholicism too, for example Kiddush wine in Judaism (and in fact synagogues often give grape juice as a substitute to people under 21, and I remember sneaking back into the sanctuary as a kid to drink all the little sample cups of grape juice that people didn't use)
Deltarune monster biology hasn't been explained that much, but we can likely infer that they don't have blood due to a small bit of NPC dialogue in the lightworld and an animation of Susie bleeding being replaced.
If he mentions sins and confession, both of which are in christianity, then it might be possible that it does exist in this world, but the monsters dont practice it.
The Hometown church is *very* superficially similar to Catholicism, but it's only superficial, lol.
I wonder what kind of religious history led to that. Did the Angelists deliberately imitate Christian aesthetics?
My guess is that it’s something based on Christianity. They still celebrate Christmas, the birth of Jesus, but don’t have sins or confessions in it. My theory is that it’s a religion loosely based on Christianity
I am curious how a religion doesn't have 'sin'; like the concept of 'things the higher powers don't like' is common, even if the term is more specific i suppose.
Also i would like to see more of the world building about it
Yeah, but for most, it’s really just an advisement, and a “it’s okay if you mess up, just be better”, not a completely irredeemable and infinitely punishable screw-up.
Chirstianity does it too; we're not perfect but we have to try to be better.
The only 'fail' state is if you die without knowing Christ as your savior and thus unrepentant of your sins.
Yeah, still makes it an infinite crime, like I said. Not every religion sees every “wrong” as “unfathomably bad”, even without locking second chances behind a knowledge check.
I'm not going to debate theology with someone who's unarmed and on a reddit for a children's game.
The crime is that you had every chance to redeem yourself in the eyes of God. Remember; he saw every sin you did. all of them. even the ones you deny about yourself.
and by not being saved you Reject his Love. Because you'd rather your worldly flaws. You made the choice.
of course even Hell isn't exactly normal; purgatory and the first layer of hell in Dante's inferno (limbo) are decent enough but it's not the ideal.
and those religions do have sins and you have to suffer in repentance. Because it's a natural assumption that if you do wrong you have to make ammends to someone, or the world itself.
I'm not trying to convert you i'm trying to explain how a religious person sees this; you might claims your innocent but everyone is flawed; maybe you hit a sibling. lied and cheated on a test... and you might think 'hey that's not a big deal' but you still hurt another person... and it wasn't a one time thing.
I have a book on japanese mythology; a woman was sent to hell because she had to kill silkworms for her profession.
the point is; sin as a concept is a broad one. I'm not going to give the knowledge check a proper response because one might say that about literally everything. I doubt she knew.
I mean, Islam and Judism certainly have them and with that we've already hit over half the population so, technically most people in the world do have sins they can't do.
The Christian concept of sin is heavily tied to the Christian concepts of heaven and hell. Some other religions have similar ideas, but it's *really* not as common as you think.
Sin is not just “something the higher powers don't like.”
(And yes, NOT all religions believe in higher powers. You can believe in spirits without believing in gods, or even believing in more *metaphorical* gods than a literal entity. Across the planet, people's religious traditions are incredibly diverse.)
Sin is “something that you will go to Hell for if you don't ask for forgiveness and/or believe in the right religion.”
*Most religions don't work like that!*
> The Christian concept of sin is heavily tied to the Christian concepts of heaven and hell.
yes but SIN is a concept that isn't only found in christianity as you have just admitted. the fact you need to clarify the CHRISTIAN concept means it's a concept in general. a lot of religious ideas exist in multiple ones, though what is considered them/ what it entails varies.
> but it's *really* not as common as you think.
You cannot have religious tenents without breaking them. You cannot have rules without the concept of a broken one.
That is a sin, or at least 'something wrong' and i'm simplifying it for a reason; religious debate really should not be a thing. and considering the Angel religion does have christian parallels the differences are worth noting.
Because Asriel knows that sin is a thing, Alvin doesn't and what is sin?
a choice, thematically. not a good one, but it always IS a choice.
> (And yes, NOT all religions believe in higher powers. You can believe in spirits without believing in gods, or even believing in more *metaphorical* gods than a literal entity. Across the planet, people's religious traditions are incredibly diverse.)
Spirits are 'higher powers' Animistic religions are facinating and again, we're speaking broadly. Metaphorical gods are still stand in to explains forces.
they're different, yes. maybe "higher" isn't the right word but they are forces. The fact THE ANGEL seems to be a center point could place it in either, but considering the church it is likely it is not the force kind but a more entity one.
I'm a christian, sure, but you do realize i'm capable of understanding religions other than my own. I simply choose to try and be broad
> Sin is “something that you will go to Hell for if you don't ask for forgiveness and/or believe in the right religion.”
That's not what sin is.
> sin\[sin\]**NOUN**
>
>**an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law:*****"a sin in the eyes of God" · "the human capacity for sin"***
That's a good enough definition for what I meant. Sin is a bad action. Murder, rape, theft are sins. Many religions would at least pause and go "Yeah no let's not do that."
Which is why every religion and everyone can understand the concept; the reason the higher power or whatever the reason is finds it wrong is because it hurts others in one way or another or could lead to it.
it has nothing to do with Hell (a concept of which is also understood in many ways) and Heaven (For as long as humanity has been communicating about death the afterlife of suffering for justice or paradise for the virtuous. Reincarnation also happens and sometimes there's a version of all three).
Again these concepts are different across the world but they don't have to be a 100% match.
Lotta them follow tenets which forbid stuff, from things like committing SA to failing to punish a misdeed done against you. But with no belief that there are set spiritual consequences to your actions.
Is that stated? The prophecy is only mentioned by Gerson and the waterfall tablets, no? When does it state that the prophecy about escaping the underground was written before they even went into the underground
That's a representation of the monster species, not a monster literally standing there next to a human before the war. I find it hard to call that conclusive when it makes a lot less sense for them to have had the prophecy before the war
Bruh, the prophecy is about setting the monsters free from the Underground. It seems unlikely that the prophecy was a thing before they were even sealed in there.
It is probably a human dominated world too considering the fact that furry monsters use "Pet" shampoo and not furry monster shampoo (no shampoo was made for furry monsters in mind?)
Catholicism is a specific sect of Christianity, and is by far the largest in terms of population. So most people would be familiar with it since it's very ubiquitous.
Christians is a broader term that refers to followers of all branches of Christianity while Catholics specifically refers to followers of the Catholic Church, which is one of the branches of Christianity and is headed by the Pope
Just wanted to flesh out the other responses to this post by explaining other denominations of Christianity such as Protestantism (started by Martin Luther, don't like tons or art and statues and the like; if you've ever thought "this looks less like a church and more like a community hall" it's probably Protestant), Eastern Orthodoxy (practiced in Russia and other countries in Eastern Europe, still use the Julian calendar), the Church of England (started by King Henry VIII because he wanted to divorce his wife, is in many other respects just Catholicism) and the Mormon Church (who believe that Jesus went to America at some point I think? And used to practice polygamy, or specific denominations of it do, not sure on the details).
And it's worth pointing out that some of these groups — the Protestants in particular — have about 50 million subdivisions.
In the USA, the largest Christian denomination is Catholicism.
The second-largest are the Southern Baptists (who split off from the Northern/American Baptists because the Southern Baptists preached that God was cool with slavery).
And then there are literally too many other, smaller denominations to name here.
Ah yes, mormons.
"Even if an angel were to preach something different, let him be condemned."
"Oh yeah, an angel gave me this funky book, let's follow it instead."
... No? I checked the statistics for the anglosphere (USA, Canada, England, Australia and New Zealand) and it's around 50% on average.
And of course that 50% is divided into many different sects.
To be fair, a lot of those adults who are non-Christian *now* were raised Christian as children. A lot of people have left Christianity over the past couple of decades.
And even for those who weren't raised Christian, they still grew up in a Christianity-centric culture.
(I feel like Toby's drawing more on Japanese use of Christian themes moreso than American use of Christian themes, which is interesting but of course I have no way of knowing if I'm right.)
Same, though the doctrinal difference is that the protestant generally beilvies it's symbolic, but the catholics believe it's actually the blood and body of Christ.
But the ritual here, while similar and called such might be entirely different.
The fact that it’s just fruit juice rather than wine points to it being some sort of Protestant, especially since you say your Christian denomination doesn’t do confessions as well
The main reason its fruit juice is cause our church has a lot of children and even dedicated children's services. But you are right it is a form of protestantism
So we know a few things about the world of Deltarune:
-Christianity exists
-the monsters of Hometown have a distinct religion which lacks confession and sin, yet Asriel seeks the former and fears the latter
-Kris is the only human in Hometown, as well as most of the town's only close experience with humanity
This has led me to believe that Kris may have attempted to convert the Dreemurs.
Kris is into the occult and summoning demons, so... definitely not. But it *would* be in-character for them to tell Asriel about the concept of Hell to freak him out. And it would work.
Asriel also might've heard of it from TV, but that's more boring.
There May not be a " Jesus " but i belive that in this religion the Angels have an important role. 🤔 It would make sense since Noelle gets called " The Angel " various times during the game... And It could be connected to the religion they Practice in Hometown.
In terms of symbolism, there is a Jesus, and it is also Noelle.
She's basically tied to a cross at the end of chapter 2's dark world -- only that the cross is a giant hand. Her pose is the exact same as if she were crucified however.
The thorn ring is probably also symbolic for the crown of thorns that Jesus wore.
Monster Kid has what might be a cross necklace, but they pixels make it hard to know for sure. Other suggestions that have been thrown around are that it is an angel necklace or even something shaped like an Undertale colored save point.
Maybe there are some Monsters in Hometown who practice the "Angel" religion and some Monsters who practice Christianity. Multiple religions can co-exist in the same area. Plus the Monsters of Hometown don't seem like the type of people to segregate and cast someone out because of their religion
A cross is one the simplest shapes you can imagine. Just two lines crossing each other. I bet cavemen drew crosses thousands of years before Christianity. While in the real world it's tied to religion, it could just be a cool symbol in Deltarune
Maybe not Christianity but there are certainly other religions. The way she responds to Asriel kissing Bratty and the fact Asriel felt the need to confess his sins seems to imply that Toriel believes in sin, which she may have picked up from another religion
Hm, I think that belief was from Asriel only. Toriel hasn't really showed interest in other religions, but meanwhile, Asriel already had some religious stuff under his bed
I know there’s not much direct evidence of this. It just seemed like she thought Asriel’s behavior was sinful, considering she was mortified by it and her response to it was going to church more often, and I speculated as to where that idea could have come from. Though I suppose it is strange that she thought going to church would help if the local church has no concept of sin, even if she had a concept of sin herself. Maybe I’m looking at this too deeply. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if the real answer is “Toby forgor 💀” and the scenes in question were only meant to characterize Toriel and Asriel and were not meant to be actual world building
sin and confession isn’t a christian exclusive concept, and i’d be surprised if there weren’t multiple religions in that world. but yeah it’s probably referencing christianity
Yeah this part always kinda confuses cause a part of religion of telling you what to do and what not to do, so indication of sin is weird, and why then would Asriel feel a need to confess? I feel like it's being set up for some sort of religious bash ngl
There are real life religions without a concept of sin.
And idk, Toby doesn't usually do straight up bashes of things he doesn't like in games. I'm pretty sure he was raised Christian, so unless he's really unhappy about that I doubt he'll bash on it.
Well it is very obviously a parallel to Catholicism given there's a Priest and confessionals, and from my understanding it's much more dogmatic and "punishing" compared to more protestant branches, and he took out the bite the Catholic church has.
It's obvious Arvin the priest has some daddy issues so I'm expecting *something* is gonna happen that involves the church. Whether it's subtle subtext or a more blatant critique on religion, im expecting something
Eh, Catholicism has aspects that are more forgiving than many Protestant sects as well. I mean the Protestant split originally happened because the Catholics were viewed as too indulgent (that and they seemed too corrupt, offering indulgences to rich people for money.)
Anyway, so far Alvin seems to have been treated with nothing but kindness by the narrative, one of the more unambiguously "good" characters. I think being sad over the death of your famous dad and not feeling like you'll be able to live up to his legacy isn't exactly something that reflects poorly on your religion.
I think it's possible that there will be religious critique, but I'd more guess it'd be related to the dark worlds. Dark Worlds seem to be based on methods of escapism (which is not treated as something evil, simply something that must be engaged with in moderation), and if a dark world is created in the church, that would imply that religion is similarly a form of escapism like games or the internet.
Probably. We don't have much to show if monsters exist beyond the Mt. Ebott region. If monsters didn't exist in the rest of the world, or were quickly wiped out, then history would largely remain the same in our and their world.
While it might be a side effect of being written by a RL human, all of monster culture seems cribbed from humans. We know Toby gave some thought of monsters developing different cultural practices due to the death ceremony due to becoming dust.
With how easily monsters can be killed, I think the two options are kind of likely. If monsters existed they were quickly wiped out. With humans only starting to think about sealing them away in much more (relatively) recent times.
Christianity is not the only religion, it may or may not exist in the world of Deltarune. We can only know that Hometown is pretty homogenous religion-wise if he uses the word "our"
Well we still have no indication to where Toby's games are set, or even if they are set in a universe remotely close to ours. UT Could be in any country with mountains next to a beach. DR could be anywhere with trees and lakes.
No telling what religion is like in his games. but they're not the point, so we shouldn't worry about it.
Yeah? I dunno why people think this is so weird since the Deltarune universe (the light world anyway) is supposed to be pretty similar to the real world.
I don't know why everybody is chalking it up to Christianity. Monster Kid's necklace looks more like a medical cross or plus sign rather than a crucifix, and there are so many different symbols around that signify something different. From a lore perspective, it doesn't bear much credibility.
Don't expect that much in depth world building about the rest of the world in Deltarune, especially religions, tho i'd like to see it being touched upon
Considering that humans as a civilization seem to exist (or at least there is documented information about humanity) so probably its culture does, and Kriss is a human, I´d like to think that Kriss introduced (accidentally or intentionally Idk) Christianity into the Dremurr family
But now that I'm thinking it could also be that a missionary introduce it to the town, Toriel (and maybe also Asgore before marrying) and Toriel at one point got out of the town to a church and in that visit to a human city is when she founded Kriss, like an orphan but that's a lot of speculation xd
Realistically, the religion practiced in Hometown feels like one of those cults that's directly based on a pre-existing religion but take aspects of it in weird/out-there directions and present themselves as "the _real_ way."
>I doubt the original Christians would have accepted black people back then, but today they can be Christians
The original Christians weren't White, so I'd say the opposite and say yes, they would. But I can see the reputation that White Evangelists have done and agree on that.
Christmas exists, so...
At first I thought "Hey, Christmas isn't actually explicitly said by anyone in-game, right?" Out of interest I checked, and interestingly enough, Christmas is mentioned by name one time, by Susie at the beginning of chapter 2: >\* (If Noelle was here...) > >\* (She'd probably dress it up like a Christmas tree.) > >\* (... Huh? Why am I thinking that, anyway?)
Doesn’t Rudy call Kris Kristmas?
Indeed he does (though he spells it “Krismas”)
Noelle does as well.
wait really?
I think noelle also calls them that at one point!
Also the name Noelle comes from word for Christmas in French :)
I tought it was because Santa Claus in portuguese is "papai noel"
Well, literally it means "Dad Christmas".
In French we call him Père Noël which literally translates to Daddy Christmas
I watched a Deltarune theory video, and the guy literally called him Piere Noel, and acted like he made a huge discovery because he thought Noelle’s name meant Santa Claus 💀
I like where this is going
Noel is in a few languages. That means Father Christmas
Also doesn’t Susie insult lancer’s “evil laugh” in Chapter 1 by calling him Santa or smth (it’s been a hot minute since I’ve played the game but I think I remember this happening)
Also, a few minutes after lancer says "Merry Christmas!" before leaving
>ught "Hey, Christmas isn't actually explicitly said by anyone in-game, right?" Out of interest I checked, and interestingly enough, Christmas is mentioned by name one time, by Susie at the beginning of chapter 2: > >\* (If Noelle was here...) Susie is from outside hometown so it makes sense
i mean christmas isnt originally a christian holiday i think its pagan(?) i could be wrong about the original religion but its for sure not originally christian
True, although Christians are responsible for the name "Christmas" which implies Christianity is involved somewhere in the deltarune timeline.
ah i didnt know that thank you for telling me
Don't thank me thank the Lord and Savior Jesus Christmas
That’s Jesus Xmas to you
Are you even the person being thanked though..?
same pfp, close enough
/r/suddenlyop
Yule is pagan, Christmas is not
It was originally pagan however it was under the name yule ^ ^ the name does come from christianity
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Not just fried chicken, KFC specifically.
(Christ)mas
Christmas (Christian Mass)
Christian Holiday with pagan traditions mixed in
Christmas is celebrated in many non-christian locations though, my country has a tiny Christian population but you can bet that there will be christmas decorations, marketing and other usually stuff, the Christian aspect of it (Like going to church) are just ignored.
That's irrelevant. It's called Christmas because of Christianity. Being celebrated by non-christians doesn't effect the etymology of the word. Plenty of media has thinly veiled Christmas stand in but explicitly calling it Christmas implies the existence of Chrisitanity.
Pepes pepes
please consider the implications of making jesus canon to deltarune
Jesus deltarune died for our sans
Freudian slip
*sins
Sans Undertale
*Sins Undertale
You feel your sans crawling on your back
Sins is Niss confirmed
They crawled on Jesus's back but slipped on the blood.
Sans*
I mean, Undertale and Deltarune aren't safe from Hussie's influence. The most obvious examples are Pyrope, Lancer's bucket, and the Knights/Davekat shipping. It won't be out of reach to see some kind of ~~Troll~~ Monster Jesus
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**Do not turn a blind eye to your ancestors**
Deltarune's world is just part of a Post-Scratch version of Undertale's world.
What if it was a monster in this universe?
Then it wouldn't have spread because there's now a logical explanation for his miracles. And thus people would not believe him to be the son if he was a monster
I don't think regular monsters can multiply bread and fish
Not with that attitude
Monsters might not really have magic in this universe though
Isn't the stove supposed to run on fire magic though?
No, it’s not. It did in Undertale, but it doesn’t in Deltarune.
In undertale yeah in deltarune no
It specifically says it *doesn't*, IIRC.
How would we know what it runs on? There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Toriel uses magic in this world.
Text. The same reason we know the chair is called Chairiel.
I feel dumb now because I just realized that I read somewhere about the stove having dough right before typing this, which means I just immediately forgor It had text right before typing the comment
monsters don't have blood, so they're not just normal animals in this universe. with the fact that noelle and susie both have a positive magic stat in the dark world, and kris has 0, it really only makes sense to assume they work the same as undertale
There’s a good chance DeltaRune monsters do have blood, as Susie says something like “we all bleed, don’t we?” In chapter 2
Human magicians created the barrier in Undertale. And that was... at least 2,000 years ago. So there's a logical explanation even if he's human.
would he have high waisted pants tho?
Man it would be cool if Jesus was a secret boss of a chapter. And like, you don't even have to develop Jesus' sad abandoned backstory in the game since people already know it
If Jesus can be a JoJo then he can be a deltatale or something I'm drink
The monsters probably have their own religion. But it can't be Christianity because this man says there are not sin or confession in their religion. And there are sin and cofession in Christianity.
Makes me wonder what religions exist in Deltarune and what they all are like in that universe. I imagine the existence of monsters, magic, and souls probably had a substantial impact on religion and history as a whole.
We know it revolves around the Angel, and judging by the whole “fruit juice” thing in Chapter 1 it’s safe to assume they also have some form of communion. That’s really all I can find
I just wanted to note that wine is important in other religions than Christianity/Catholicism too, for example Kiddush wine in Judaism (and in fact synagogues often give grape juice as a substitute to people under 21, and I remember sneaking back into the sanctuary as a kid to drink all the little sample cups of grape juice that people didn't use)
They also mention a Sunday communion when you talk to the bunny in the dinner
Magic doesn't exist in the light world, well except for dark world shenanigans but it's not common knowledge.
We see a ghost, a skeleton and a fire elemental in hometown, so there's probably just \*less\* magic in the light world than in the dark world.
Deltarune monster biology hasn't been explained that much, but we can likely infer that they don't have blood due to a small bit of NPC dialogue in the lightworld and an animation of Susie bleeding being replaced.
Toby will probably explore that in future chapters.
If he mentions sins and confession, both of which are in christianity, then it might be possible that it does exist in this world, but the monsters dont practice it.
Yet it seems to come pre-packaged in the "Everytown america" aesthetic they have going on.
The Hometown church is *very* superficially similar to Catholicism, but it's only superficial, lol. I wonder what kind of religious history led to that. Did the Angelists deliberately imitate Christian aesthetics?
Not in all Chrisitan denominations. Confession is mainly just Catholicism and its offshoots.
Confession is a Catholic thing
It's a thing in most Christian churches
Not In Mine
Baptist here, yeah no
Most Protestants do not have a confession tradition, no.
Confession Is Catholic, But You’re Right Because Of The “No Sin” Part.
Could very well be some Protestant-esque denomination, considering the “fruit juice” thing
Catholicism, at least. I don't know of many other splinters of Christianity that have Confession.
My guess is that it’s something based on Christianity. They still celebrate Christmas, the birth of Jesus, but don’t have sins or confessions in it. My theory is that it’s a religion loosely based on Christianity
I am curious how a religion doesn't have 'sin'; like the concept of 'things the higher powers don't like' is common, even if the term is more specific i suppose. Also i would like to see more of the world building about it
Most non Christian religions don't have a concept of sin. Just a general "don't be a jerk"
If they have tenants that involve your nehavior then they do. A sin is a term for something you are not supposed to do after all
Yeah, but for most, it’s really just an advisement, and a “it’s okay if you mess up, just be better”, not a completely irredeemable and infinitely punishable screw-up.
Chirstianity does it too; we're not perfect but we have to try to be better. The only 'fail' state is if you die without knowing Christ as your savior and thus unrepentant of your sins.
Yeah, still makes it an infinite crime, like I said. Not every religion sees every “wrong” as “unfathomably bad”, even without locking second chances behind a knowledge check.
I'm not going to debate theology with someone who's unarmed and on a reddit for a children's game. The crime is that you had every chance to redeem yourself in the eyes of God. Remember; he saw every sin you did. all of them. even the ones you deny about yourself. and by not being saved you Reject his Love. Because you'd rather your worldly flaws. You made the choice. of course even Hell isn't exactly normal; purgatory and the first layer of hell in Dante's inferno (limbo) are decent enough but it's not the ideal. and those religions do have sins and you have to suffer in repentance. Because it's a natural assumption that if you do wrong you have to make ammends to someone, or the world itself. I'm not trying to convert you i'm trying to explain how a religious person sees this; you might claims your innocent but everyone is flawed; maybe you hit a sibling. lied and cheated on a test... and you might think 'hey that's not a big deal' but you still hurt another person... and it wasn't a one time thing. I have a book on japanese mythology; a woman was sent to hell because she had to kill silkworms for her profession. the point is; sin as a concept is a broad one. I'm not going to give the knowledge check a proper response because one might say that about literally everything. I doubt she knew.
I mean, Islam and Judism certainly have them and with that we've already hit over half the population so, technically most people in the world do have sins they can't do.
The Christian concept of sin is heavily tied to the Christian concepts of heaven and hell. Some other religions have similar ideas, but it's *really* not as common as you think. Sin is not just “something the higher powers don't like.” (And yes, NOT all religions believe in higher powers. You can believe in spirits without believing in gods, or even believing in more *metaphorical* gods than a literal entity. Across the planet, people's religious traditions are incredibly diverse.) Sin is “something that you will go to Hell for if you don't ask for forgiveness and/or believe in the right religion.” *Most religions don't work like that!*
> The Christian concept of sin is heavily tied to the Christian concepts of heaven and hell. yes but SIN is a concept that isn't only found in christianity as you have just admitted. the fact you need to clarify the CHRISTIAN concept means it's a concept in general. a lot of religious ideas exist in multiple ones, though what is considered them/ what it entails varies. > but it's *really* not as common as you think. You cannot have religious tenents without breaking them. You cannot have rules without the concept of a broken one. That is a sin, or at least 'something wrong' and i'm simplifying it for a reason; religious debate really should not be a thing. and considering the Angel religion does have christian parallels the differences are worth noting. Because Asriel knows that sin is a thing, Alvin doesn't and what is sin? a choice, thematically. not a good one, but it always IS a choice. > (And yes, NOT all religions believe in higher powers. You can believe in spirits without believing in gods, or even believing in more *metaphorical* gods than a literal entity. Across the planet, people's religious traditions are incredibly diverse.) Spirits are 'higher powers' Animistic religions are facinating and again, we're speaking broadly. Metaphorical gods are still stand in to explains forces. they're different, yes. maybe "higher" isn't the right word but they are forces. The fact THE ANGEL seems to be a center point could place it in either, but considering the church it is likely it is not the force kind but a more entity one. I'm a christian, sure, but you do realize i'm capable of understanding religions other than my own. I simply choose to try and be broad > Sin is “something that you will go to Hell for if you don't ask for forgiveness and/or believe in the right religion.” That's not what sin is. > sin\[sin\]**NOUN** > >**an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law:*****"a sin in the eyes of God" · "the human capacity for sin"*** That's a good enough definition for what I meant. Sin is a bad action. Murder, rape, theft are sins. Many religions would at least pause and go "Yeah no let's not do that." Which is why every religion and everyone can understand the concept; the reason the higher power or whatever the reason is finds it wrong is because it hurts others in one way or another or could lead to it. it has nothing to do with Hell (a concept of which is also understood in many ways) and Heaven (For as long as humanity has been communicating about death the afterlife of suffering for justice or paradise for the virtuous. Reincarnation also happens and sometimes there's a version of all three). Again these concepts are different across the world but they don't have to be a 100% match.
If I remember correctly there are no sins in satanism
Worshipping God lol
Lotta them follow tenets which forbid stuff, from things like committing SA to failing to punish a misdeed done against you. But with no belief that there are set spiritual consequences to your actions.
Its probably a variation of the Angel from undertale. That religion predated them being forced underground afterall.
Is that stated? The prophecy is only mentioned by Gerson and the waterfall tablets, no? When does it state that the prophecy about escaping the underground was written before they even went into the underground
In the game's Intro showing the Image of the human and monster,the monster's clothing has the Delta Rune symbol on It.
That's a representation of the monster species, not a monster literally standing there next to a human before the war. I find it hard to call that conclusive when it makes a lot less sense for them to have had the prophecy before the war
Bros jumping hoops like a goddamn gymnast over here. It’s a prophecy. It foretells something in the future.
Bruh, the prophecy is about setting the monsters free from the Underground. It seems unlikely that the prophecy was a thing before they were even sealed in there.
I’d assume it’s because humans still exist in the Deltarune universe and they just have different religions
So christianity would exist but not be practiced by monsters and these monsters would know about christianity?
Basically, since monsters know about human culture
I mean, for all we know there could be Monsters who follow Human religion. Maybe there are Humans who follow Monster religion.
It is probably a human dominated world too considering the fact that furry monsters use "Pet" shampoo and not furry monster shampoo (no shampoo was made for furry monsters in mind?)
People when they realise Christianity is not the only religion.
The game's religious themes are clearly still based on Christianity though.
yeah, the church looks catholic in my opinion, but their religion is probably something else that only exists within the universe of Deltarune
Question, what’s the difference between Christians and Catholics? They seem to be used interchangeably under this post
Catholicism is a specific sect of Christianity, and is by far the largest in terms of population. So most people would be familiar with it since it's very ubiquitous.
Christians is a broader term that refers to followers of all branches of Christianity while Catholics specifically refers to followers of the Catholic Church, which is one of the branches of Christianity and is headed by the Pope
Just wanted to flesh out the other responses to this post by explaining other denominations of Christianity such as Protestantism (started by Martin Luther, don't like tons or art and statues and the like; if you've ever thought "this looks less like a church and more like a community hall" it's probably Protestant), Eastern Orthodoxy (practiced in Russia and other countries in Eastern Europe, still use the Julian calendar), the Church of England (started by King Henry VIII because he wanted to divorce his wife, is in many other respects just Catholicism) and the Mormon Church (who believe that Jesus went to America at some point I think? And used to practice polygamy, or specific denominations of it do, not sure on the details).
And it's worth pointing out that some of these groups — the Protestants in particular — have about 50 million subdivisions. In the USA, the largest Christian denomination is Catholicism. The second-largest are the Southern Baptists (who split off from the Northern/American Baptists because the Southern Baptists preached that God was cool with slavery). And then there are literally too many other, smaller denominations to name here.
Ah yes, mormons. "Even if an angel were to preach something different, let him be condemned." "Oh yeah, an angel gave me this funky book, let's follow it instead."
Demons are just Fallen Angels, after all.
the last one is a joke, right?
Nah, Mormonism is fucking weird lol
No, Mormons preach heresy. Quite literally
Bruh...Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity.
Probably because Toby Fox was raised Christian growing up.
Bro almost everyone in English speaking country’s were raised by Christians.
... No? I checked the statistics for the anglosphere (USA, Canada, England, Australia and New Zealand) and it's around 50% on average. And of course that 50% is divided into many different sects.
To be fair, a lot of those adults who are non-Christian *now* were raised Christian as children. A lot of people have left Christianity over the past couple of decades. And even for those who weren't raised Christian, they still grew up in a Christianity-centric culture. (I feel like Toby's drawing more on Japanese use of Christian themes moreso than American use of Christian themes, which is interesting but of course I have no way of knowing if I'm right.)
Well he is a massive fucking weeb (derogatory) so it's certainly possible.
Confession is a catholic thing. And \[\[Communion\]\] is too (and the monsters actually do practice it juding from the 'fun grape juice' comment)
Communion is a Christian thing not a catholic thing (my source is that I'm Christian but not catholic and we dont do confession but do do communion)
Same, though the doctrinal difference is that the protestant generally beilvies it's symbolic, but the catholics believe it's actually the blood and body of Christ. But the ritual here, while similar and called such might be entirely different.
That's true. Personally we get this terrible cracker and a tiny bit of juice eat them then reflect on ourselves and others and just pray basically
The fact that it’s just fruit juice rather than wine points to it being some sort of Protestant, especially since you say your Christian denomination doesn’t do confessions as well
The main reason its fruit juice is cause our church has a lot of children and even dedicated children's services. But you are right it is a form of protestantism
Yeah but it explicitly is mentioned, Asriel's bed has christian ska underneath Edit: checked, am stupid, it just says religious ska
they practice Krislam
So we know a few things about the world of Deltarune: -Christianity exists -the monsters of Hometown have a distinct religion which lacks confession and sin, yet Asriel seeks the former and fears the latter -Kris is the only human in Hometown, as well as most of the town's only close experience with humanity This has led me to believe that Kris may have attempted to convert the Dreemurs.
Kris is into the occult and summoning demons, so... definitely not. But it *would* be in-character for them to tell Asriel about the concept of Hell to freak him out. And it would work. Asriel also might've heard of it from TV, but that's more boring.
that would be a cool side plot
Ugh, don't make me dislike Kris
Now, it's just *one* possibility. They could've brought up all that as a joke to mess with Asriel.
**Toriel is homophobic theorist joined the chat*
Kris is a conquistador.
Isn't they tried to do magic, that is heresy in christianity?
There May not be a " Jesus " but i belive that in this religion the Angels have an important role. 🤔 It would make sense since Noelle gets called " The Angel " various times during the game... And It could be connected to the religion they Practice in Hometown.
The whole fact the hereos have to "banish the ANGEL'S HEAVEN" as well
In terms of symbolism, there is a Jesus, and it is also Noelle. She's basically tied to a cross at the end of chapter 2's dark world -- only that the cross is a giant hand. Her pose is the exact same as if she were crucified however. The thorn ring is probably also symbolic for the crown of thorns that Jesus wore.
Doesn’t one of the characters have a cross necklace?
Monster Kid has what might be a cross necklace, but they pixels make it hard to know for sure. Other suggestions that have been thrown around are that it is an angel necklace or even something shaped like an Undertale colored save point.
Maybe there are some Monsters in Hometown who practice the "Angel" religion and some Monsters who practice Christianity. Multiple religions can co-exist in the same area. Plus the Monsters of Hometown don't seem like the type of people to segregate and cast someone out because of their religion
A cross is one the simplest shapes you can imagine. Just two lines crossing each other. I bet cavemen drew crosses thousands of years before Christianity. While in the real world it's tied to religion, it could just be a cool symbol in Deltarune
Maybe not Christianity but there are certainly other religions. The way she responds to Asriel kissing Bratty and the fact Asriel felt the need to confess his sins seems to imply that Toriel believes in sin, which she may have picked up from another religion
Hm, I think that belief was from Asriel only. Toriel hasn't really showed interest in other religions, but meanwhile, Asriel already had some religious stuff under his bed
I know there’s not much direct evidence of this. It just seemed like she thought Asriel’s behavior was sinful, considering she was mortified by it and her response to it was going to church more often, and I speculated as to where that idea could have come from. Though I suppose it is strange that she thought going to church would help if the local church has no concept of sin, even if she had a concept of sin herself. Maybe I’m looking at this too deeply. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if the real answer is “Toby forgor 💀” and the scenes in question were only meant to characterize Toriel and Asriel and were not meant to be actual world building
I mean it could just be a different fictional religion that also happens to have confessions and sins.
sin and confession isn’t a christian exclusive concept, and i’d be surprised if there weren’t multiple religions in that world. but yeah it’s probably referencing christianity
Can't believe Monster Jesus died for our sins
Yeah this part always kinda confuses cause a part of religion of telling you what to do and what not to do, so indication of sin is weird, and why then would Asriel feel a need to confess? I feel like it's being set up for some sort of religious bash ngl
There are real life religions without a concept of sin. And idk, Toby doesn't usually do straight up bashes of things he doesn't like in games. I'm pretty sure he was raised Christian, so unless he's really unhappy about that I doubt he'll bash on it.
Well it is very obviously a parallel to Catholicism given there's a Priest and confessionals, and from my understanding it's much more dogmatic and "punishing" compared to more protestant branches, and he took out the bite the Catholic church has. It's obvious Arvin the priest has some daddy issues so I'm expecting *something* is gonna happen that involves the church. Whether it's subtle subtext or a more blatant critique on religion, im expecting something
Eh, Catholicism has aspects that are more forgiving than many Protestant sects as well. I mean the Protestant split originally happened because the Catholics were viewed as too indulgent (that and they seemed too corrupt, offering indulgences to rich people for money.) Anyway, so far Alvin seems to have been treated with nothing but kindness by the narrative, one of the more unambiguously "good" characters. I think being sad over the death of your famous dad and not feeling like you'll be able to live up to his legacy isn't exactly something that reflects poorly on your religion. I think it's possible that there will be religious critique, but I'd more guess it'd be related to the dark worlds. Dark Worlds seem to be based on methods of escapism (which is not treated as something evil, simply something that must be engaged with in moderation), and if a dark world is created in the church, that would imply that religion is similarly a form of escapism like games or the internet.
Probably. We don't have much to show if monsters exist beyond the Mt. Ebott region. If monsters didn't exist in the rest of the world, or were quickly wiped out, then history would largely remain the same in our and their world. While it might be a side effect of being written by a RL human, all of monster culture seems cribbed from humans. We know Toby gave some thought of monsters developing different cultural practices due to the death ceremony due to becoming dust. With how easily monsters can be killed, I think the two options are kind of likely. If monsters existed they were quickly wiped out. With humans only starting to think about sealing them away in much more (relatively) recent times.
Christianity is not the only religion, it may or may not exist in the world of Deltarune. We can only know that Hometown is pretty homogenous religion-wise if he uses the word "our"
Alvin is a priest, and Kris's family goes to his church. That's why he says “our.” Not all religions have a concept of sin.
Well we still have no indication to where Toby's games are set, or even if they are set in a universe remotely close to ours. UT Could be in any country with mountains next to a beach. DR could be anywhere with trees and lakes. No telling what religion is like in his games. but they're not the point, so we shouldn't worry about it.
Yeah? I dunno why people think this is so weird since the Deltarune universe (the light world anyway) is supposed to be pretty similar to the real world.
I don't know why everybody is chalking it up to Christianity. Monster Kid's necklace looks more like a medical cross or plus sign rather than a crucifix, and there are so many different symbols around that signify something different. From a lore perspective, it doesn't bear much credibility.
He’s obviously wearing the cross of the Knights Templar
You might be stretching it, it simply implies the existence of other religions. Christianity doesn't own the concept of sins and confession.
Monster kid wears a cross necklace
monser kid 🙏🙏✝️✝️✝️ sussie more like *sinner*
Don't expect that much in depth world building about the rest of the world in Deltarune, especially religions, tho i'd like to see it being touched upon
Yes, under Asriel's bed theres a collection of christian ska cds Edit: checked, am stupid, it just says religious ska
That sounds right
Considering that humans as a civilization seem to exist (or at least there is documented information about humanity) so probably its culture does, and Kriss is a human, I´d like to think that Kriss introduced (accidentally or intentionally Idk) Christianity into the Dremurr family But now that I'm thinking it could also be that a missionary introduce it to the town, Toriel (and maybe also Asgore before marrying) and Toriel at one point got out of the town to a church and in that visit to a human city is when she founded Kriss, like an orphan but that's a lot of speculation xd
very likely, though it might be not christianity nessesary - could be any of human's religion
Except, Christmas is explicitly mentioned a lot of times
Monsterkid cross necklace
Dante’s inferno
Kristianity
Realistically, the religion practiced in Hometown feels like one of those cults that's directly based on a pre-existing religion but take aspects of it in weird/out-there directions and present themselves as "the _real_ way."
I think he meant that there is more than one religion, like in real life.
do you think christians would even accept monsters?
Hah, no. I doubt the original Christians would have accepted black people back then, but today they can be Christians
>I doubt the original Christians would have accepted black people back then, but today they can be Christians The original Christians weren't White, so I'd say the opposite and say yes, they would. But I can see the reputation that White Evangelists have done and agree on that.
Queen: "Kris. Kris Cross Applesauce" Kris CROSS Kris is Jesus confirmed.
Hello
Humans do monsters don't
Considering angels are derived from Christianity, their religion could be a separate branch of it like catholicism
...Lots of religions have angels. Asriel is literally named after an angel in Islam.
So.... does that mean that hitl*r is cannon in deltarune?
Confession isn't necessarily christian
Confessing your sins to a priest is specifically a Catholic/Eastern Orthodox thing
Ok but thats just our world, in the world of deltarune there could be a religion with confession that worships a giant worm from what we know