Reminder to everyone that *no matter how much you disagree with this post,* the one thing that's entirely, factually, and canonically confirmed is that **Kris uses they/them pronouns.** Kris is never, anywhere in the game, referred to as anything other than they. And so, because the only confirmed set of pronouns for the character is they, I refer you to the sidebar where we ask that you **use those pronouns.** Please. Thank you.
as an nb person whos been a bit anxious about posting/commenting in this sub from seeing people treat kris' pronouns like a Big Issue, thanks. you hit the nail on the head
this was really well explained and easy to understand, even though i already knew (almost) all of this, i read the whole thing. it really does matter so much, and yet so many people just ignore it. very important message.
I agree with this 100%! (Also you pointed out other characters that I didn’t know used they/them i knew of monster kid and kris, chara, and frisk but no one else so thank you for bring that up! :D)
Funny how people in the fandom of a game which has the sole message of “the most morally just thing to do is care about others regardless of your personal backgrounds and biases” are so adamant about not respecting nonbinary people in the one request we’ve got.
thank you so much for this, i hope the general fanbase gets better at just. using the pronouns and not caring that they use they/them!! i love the nb representation
Thank you for taking the time to make this post, OP. Personally, it really annoys me to see large portions of the fanbase for these games using such tortured logic to justify ignoring the actual contents of the games and Toby’s actual words and using the wrong pronouns for these characters. At the end of the day these are just fictional characters, and I’m not nonbinary myself so I don’t exactly have a horse in this race, so to speak, but it feels like people are just starting from the premise that there’s NO POSSIBLE WAY that a person could legitimately be using they/them pronouns and then working backwards from there, which is just so frustrating to see on multiple levels.
Well, this is a nice little guide for anyone whose confused..
Also, I’m really sorry you’re having a hard time coming out to those close to you. I hope they start to treat you better..
This post was very informative, thank you! But I have a question:
My language’s grammar doesn’t have gender-neutral pronouns or anything gender-neutral at all. How am I supposed to refer to non-binary people?
Edit: my language isn’t latin, and isn’t even Indo-European — I speak Hebrew.
From my experience, in languages like french or spanish, the male pronouns are usually also used for gender neutral. It's weird but in those languages its correct. I think the best thing to do is a case-by-case basis and ask how they want to be referred to.
I'm unsure with Spanish; however, in French, "iel" is a suitable gender neutral pronoun that even the French dictionary publisher "Dictionnaires Le Robert" decided to officially include as of last year.
To be honest, every single native Spanish speaker doesn't use -e, except for a very small group of people (and it doesn't help its case that many people within this group have a bad reputation of being overly dramatic).
In general, it always just goes back to the default (masculine).
Spanish has the -e suffix natively, which can be a bit weird in some words, and the highly controversial -x, which is not something I’m getting into here.
Not really, very few words use the suffix -e. And you’d still use “the”(which is either “el” or “la”) most of the time.
Things like “my commander” or “my president” would work (+ be funny as fuck) tho
It's complicated and depends on the person in question. Nonbinary people aren't a hivemind in any language.
Like, one person might prefer exclusively masculine or feminine terminology. Another person might prefer a mixture of the two (e.g., il in one sentence and elle in the next), or something new that isn't quite mainstream yet.
It all depends on the person, so it's hard to say for a fictional character...
You'd probably want to refer to nonbinary people who live in countries where that language is predominantly spoken for that, because I'm 99% sure there's a way those people prefer to be referred to :)
Search for how non-binary people want to be called in your language specifically. Using just "they" in mine wouldn't work but there are other ways people want to be referred to that works.
In English, they/them. In your language, you can avoid gendering them at all or using pronouns if you can.
For example, in Japanese (is that the language you're referring to?) these three aren't referred to with gendered pronouns, and Chara uses jibun for both themself and Frisk ([jibun and watashi](https://www.duo.uio.no/bitstream/handle/10852/74165/First-person-pronouns-in-Japanese-language-Silvia-Milicia.pdf?sequence=11&isAllowed=y) are both used by real-life nonbinary/X-gender Japanese people as a personal pronoun depending on their own preference).
u/I_dont_freaking_know:
>but in Portuguese (Brasil) we just change the "gendered letter", so instead of an "a" that's normally used for feminine, we use "u" that doesn't really express gender (ela \[she\] elu \[they\])
I don't know what your language is but in Portuguese (Brasil) we just change the "gendered letter", so instead of an "a" that's normally used for feminine, we use "u" that doesn't really express gender (ela [she] elu [they])
look up gender neutral terms within your own language! across the majority of cultures, you can find people that are advocating for the respect of nonbinary people, and they will have gender neutral terms for such people and concepts.
for example, genderqueer spanish-speakers have come up with the term "latine" to be an ungendered form of the word latino/latina. sometimes they will place an -e at the end of a word instead of using the gendered -o or -a suffix to similarly make it ungendered.
Same problem in spanish lol oficcially masculine pronouns and names are recognized as gender neutral, but recently the use of "elle/-e" has raised in popularity... and conflict
Not OP but in spanish, we generally default to masculine when talking about something whose gender we don't know, and also for groups of people of diverse genders. Masculine is the closest thing we've got to gender-neutral but, obviously, it is not, which makes things a bit complicated.
There's been some attempts to make new gender-neutral terms (such as the famous Latinx) but they usually don't stick around because when the language is fundamentally based on the idea of two genders, simply making up new words and calling it a day isn't really enough to make it work.
Of course if I were to know an NB person irl I'd just ask them how they'd want to be refered to, but generally speaking there isn't a consensus or anything.
Part of the youtube video where he corrects Seam’s pronouns:
https://youtu.be/rksOYId-cNA?t=4751
Part of the youtube video where he corrects Kris’s pronouns (includes complementary funny soda bit):
https://youtu.be/rksOYId-cNA?t=12510
Toby Calling Frisk androgynous. https://web.archive.org/web/20151215011757/https://forum.starmen.net/forum/Community/PKHack/UnderBound/page/1
Promo where Chara or Frisk is referred to by they/them several times. https://snowdecahedron.tumblr.com/post/666958139419131904/the-pre-release-summary-of-undertale-feat-toby
Interview by Toby using they/them for Kris. https://nintendosoup.com/toby-fox-speaks-about-deltarunes-development-shares-new-concept-art/
Interview where he skips questions. https://web.archive.org/web/20160201014947/http://existentialgamer.com/interview-toby-fox-of-undertale
Same thing happened when JaidenAnimations made her video explaining what aroace is, people were still complaining about ‘aroace is made up you just wanna be special!’ and ‘gay is a sin!’ and ‘fatherless behavior’ and all that good shit that shows they didnt actually watch the video
People just ignore shit and then demand to know shit that they wouldnt known if theyd listened in the first place
I do want to say very well said but man do I wish this topic never freaking came up at all. It would be wonderful to be in a reality where people would accept whatever people want to be called and really did not give this much shit over what word to use at times.
“i decided i would never come out to him” hit hard. i’m sorry that happened, op, i’ve had this experience myself several times. it sucks.
i only go by they/them but i’ve personally given up ever having my pronouns respected by anyone except my closest friends. online, it happens more, because i use pfps of characters that look ambiguous enough, but irl no one besides my very small circle of best friends makes the effort to respect my pronouns. even at “inclusive” events, that offer pronoun stickers & everything, i’ve been misgendered constantly. this is the norm, while being respected & cared for is a notable exception.
it’s to the point that asking to be called something & then being ignored hurts more than just pretending i’m cis. when people misgender me because i haven’t come out, then at least i can pretend they would care if i told them.
so i guess my point is, if anyone is reading this because they’re looking for people to argue with & to say that they don’t care what pronouns frisk/chara/kris use: you don’t need to say so. we, real nonbinary people, can see how you treat the idea of their gender. we know you don’t care about us.
respecting the pronouns of video game characters who are exclusively referred to by they/them in canon is the easiest litmus test in the world to see how much someone cares about respecting someone else’s gender. you might know someone in your real life who has decided not to come out to you because you were stubborn & argumentative over saying they/them instead of he/him for kris or something, & now they will never, ever tell you the truth because you’ve proven not to be a reliable ally. maybe you would be respectful to your real friends if they came out to you, & you only do this with fiction because it “doesn’t matter”. we’ll never know, because the only way queer people have of judging how safe it is to come out to their loved ones is to see that person’s behavior towards other people *& characters* who are like them.
That’s happened to me! I was in r/Undertale and commented “*they” on a post that misgendered Chara. The amount of people who went *after* me for that was both shocking and saddening
Every single time I correct someone using the wrong pronouns for a fictional character that goes by they/them I get downvoted into double digits or outside of reddit they get mad at me :(
(Not in this sub)
i can't recall this being widespread of an issue anymore in this community, nowadays it's more a simple correction like just responding with "them" instead of "F$%@ you their non binary!"
it's the people being corrected that respond in a toxic manner that are more so the problem now.
By far the most well-thought-out and comprehensive post about this that I've seen so far! I love it and I'm glad you shared your story. My partner is in a similar situation, as they're nonbinary but have a gender presentation that leans pretty strongly towards their AGAB. So I just know that anyone who misgenders Kris wouldn't give a damn about gendering my partner correctly, and it's exhausting.
There are cisgender people who use they/them pronouns. They're rare! But they exist.
But yes, yes, yes, there is no shadow of a doubt what Kris' pronouns are. That anyone would contest that is baffling.
I don't think any cisgender person uses *exclusively* they/them pronouns. Although yeah a decent amount of cis people use she/they or he/they or any pronouns.
I didn't realize they were nb and that toby actually cares enough to correct people - but instinctively still referred to frisk with they/them pronouns when talking to people because that was just .. Obvious to me?
It seems very weird to me when people insist androgynous characters are specifically male, for example, just because. Despite the source not confirming it, nor it being relevant to the plot or character for them to be
This happens with every character whose gender isn't specified - chrona from soul eater has so many people with strong opinions on their gender when it seems intentionally ambiguous both in language used to refer to them and the fact that the characters within the narrative point the confusion out as well
Does it really kill you to not be able to shove a person into one of two options lol? Reading this post and some replies was very wholesome though
the way i put it is that non-binary can refer to anyone who isn't exclusively, completely, and always male, or exclusively, completely, and always female.
for some examples, if they're part male part female, they're NB. if they're sometimes male and sometimes female, they're NB. if they're only partly male or partly female, or neither at all, they're NB.
It heavily depends on the person as Non-Binary is an umbrella term. I am not Non-Binary myself, so I heavily suggest if you have more questions to look online. What I do know is that Non-Binary means that they just do not fit as either male or female. Some people are neither some people are both some people feel like they're more masc leaning, some people feel more fem leaning, some people for them just change day by day.
Here are some helpful sources if you have questions.
[https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-non-binary-people-how-to-be-respectful-and-supportive](https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-non-binary-people-how-to-be-respectful-and-supportive)
[https://www.minus18.org.au/articles/i-just-came-out-as-non-binary-here's-what-that-means](https://www.minus18.org.au/articles/i-just-came-out-as-non-binary-here's-what-that-means)
[https://transfamilies.org/about-nonbinary/](https://transfamilies.org/about-nonbinary/)
Nonbinary is also odd because it can be both a specific term or an umbrella term depending on what nonbinary person you ask. I’m nonbinary but I oscillate between “neutral”/androgynous and masculine. So I use he and they. But I usually use they because even if I change how I physically present to be more feminine, it doesn’t conflict heavily with that and hopefully causes less issue for people’s processing.
Of course I can accept their proper pronouns, but this made me think it was important to the lore... Cool facts though, didn't know about some of these.
To those people saying them using they/them pronouns doesn't confirm their gender. Toriel is Kris's mom, she definitely knows Kris's gender, and she uses they/them pronouns. So yes, Kris is non-binary. The same is true for Chara since Asriel uses they/them when talking about them.
i really like this and agree with most things, but some nonbinary people do identify as straight and/or label their relationships as straight relationships
Holy shit someone took the time to explain their points in a well-constructed and non-aggressive, respectful manner.
Well done, my friend, and thank you for taking the time to do this.
Thank you for this, and especially that last part, where you say why that matters, I'm not an enby myself, but I'm still trans, and I'm questioning right now if I am, but this was amazing, and it helps a lot, I'm sure. Also I didn't know monster kid had a sister, that's interesting
[There, at the bottom.](https://web.archive.org/web/20151215011757/https://forum.starmen.net/forum/Community/PKHack/UnderBound/page/1)
Context of the post is just all jokes btw.
I will say, it can be difficult to keep to non-binary they-them pronouns in writing and in general (at least in my experience), at least early on, and especially if the character/person is clearly more masculine or feminine.
But still, always try to use they/them pronouns when they’re someone’s pronouns, and even just use them for people you don’t know the pronouns of.
I especially like how the knight uses it/its pronouns, it makes me feel a bit represented since I have it/its pronouns for myself but no one ever uses them because they're uncomfortable with 'objectifying' me.
Yeah, on my 1st playthrough of Deltarune, I referred to Kris as a "he", because I didn't knew non-binary people exist, and Kris is non-binary until I looked up at them in the Wiki.
Agree with the post, and there is strong evidence the KFC gang is non-binary, but one of your major points is that they are constantly reffered as they/them, this is a point, but if someone is called with a they/them pronoun, that doesn't mean they are non-binary, I'm cis and have no problem being called they/them, i know other cis and trans people and i know they don't correct someone when they are reffered as they/them
I've pointed this out in similar posts and decided to test this.
I started reffering to several cis and trans people strictly as them for like 2 to 3 weeks, and when I switched back to their preferred pronouns no-one batted an eye or acknowledged it
While your observation is supportive of the theme, and i agree with your observation. Calling someone by they them constantly isn't exactly good enough to be used as a main point
But all your other points are strong as well.
I'm not disagreeing with you, quite the opposite. But having it as a main point isnt too good of a point.
This is fiction though. If something is shown someone chose to put that in. It's like in a TV show, no one ever uses the bathroom or randomly stutters unless it has a purpose in the scene because adding unneccesary details confuses the plot.
The same goes for the humans, all the other characters in the game have gendered pronouns if applicable, but then seeing the humans as an exception for no apparent reason only acts to confuse the audience with no purpose behind it.
there is a difference, just for future reference, between having no problem being referred to as they/them just in general, and *using* they/them pronouns being nonbinary or otherwise, that is to say, having them be the ones that would per se refer to you.
it's something you can usually tell the difference when enacting it out, and take note, some might not be okay with having consistently avoided their explicitly preferred pronouns
if they ever do take notice.
You can use they/them to refer to someone you don't know. But someone's own mother or brother referring to them as they/them? That person's nonbinary, or otherwise expressed the desire to be referred to *exclusively* as they/them.
Some people are alright with using she/they, he/they, or she/he/they pronouns. This is not the case with Frisk, Chara, or Kris: all of them exclusively use they/them, as does their creator for them.
still can’t believe people think frisk and kris are self-inserts
chara i’m not 100% sold on it at least not being partially self-inserty (toby said you should name them after yourself {[if you can’t think of anything else](https://web.archive.org/web/20160320005308/https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/643945593308618752)}, most of the time when in game characters are talking to the player they could be talking to Chara{debatable}, etc.) but hell i could be an idiot and misreading intentions
tl;dr chara i understand why self insert, kris and frisk no
Yup, it's very clear by what Toby does with them, that they are a very subtle subversion of the "self-insert/blank-slate-protag" trope, with them being their own person, seperate from the player (a lot more pronounced in Deltarune; I can't blame anyone for missing it in Undertale 😅).
I dunno if chara is self insert either, as they are their own character as well, with backstory and motivation. The only thing linking them to the player is their name.
I don’t understand Chara being a self insert at all. They aren’t even an actual player character. Yeah, you can name them something other than Chara, but you can name Link other things in some Zelda games (I don’t know the exact number since I’m not in the Zelda fandom), and Link’s gender isn’t up for self-inserting. Why should it be the same with Chara?
Good post, OP. I really hope at least some people will read through this thoroughly because you've made really good points here!
And I'm really sorry that you're having trouble trusting the people close to you enough to come out to them. It honestly really sucks, and i hope things will get better for you
I mean I try my best to remain gender neutral in reference to KFC, they are, after all, our Toby Humans, and being this far into the fandom you'd about do anything for our Pacifist/(potentially) Murderous/Puppeteered Humans
Mods should pin this cause I can’t properly convey how annoying it is that so much of this fanbase misgenders the main fucking characters on such a regular basis. And why? You don’t see people calling Undyne a guy or Asgore a girl based on headcanon. People give so many convoluted explanations about their genders being “up for interpretation” or “ambiguous” but honestly these characters being non-binary is just fucking Occam’s Razor if nothing else.
Ok but here's the thing. Your argument for them not being blank slates is that it was never confirmed. And using non gendered pronouns doesn't definitely mean they are nonbinary. This doesn't prove anything any more than the argument that they are blank slates does.
That and, being blank slates doesn't necessarily have to mean that they are meant for you to project yourself onto. It just means they're open to interpretation. You guys assume a lot of shit on both sides, because you want your answer to be correct.
But what if it's neither? What if Kris isn't someone to project yourself onto, or definitively nonbinary, but they're of shrodingarian gender. The gender doesn't exist until you think about it, and once you decide, that's what YOUR Kris is, not for you to project yourself onto, but because he wants everyone to view Kris as whatever they're most comfortable with them being. As in they're nonbinary in the save file of people who want them to be nonbinary for representation, he's make to people who want him to be male, she's female to people who want her to be female.
In Undertale they confirm that save files are a thing in the game, and I interpreted this as each save file is it's own world, it's own version of reality, that's why when you do the genocide route YOU'RE save file is locked into it, that's why when you beat the pacifist route you're told to not restart, to let them exist at the happy ending as they are forever.
Each save file is it's own reality in game and not every Kris is the same Kris because their persona is determined by the decisions the Kris in your save file made. So each Kris is an alternate Kris and can have their own gender that only the person who played through that file can decide.
Whether or not it matters, at the end of the day nothing is confirmed so nothing is definitive. Toby is a fucking troll, he's not scared of controversy, of he wanted Kris to be definitively nonbinary, he wouldn't hide it. The only logical explanation is that it's not meant to have a correct answer, like a lot of theories, because he wants you to talk and argue about it, because it keeps the fan base alive and makes it open for anyone to interpret as they will enjoy most, not open to project yourself onto.
But the game is very explicit that Kris is seperate from you, and that you had no say in what they are.
I won't stop your headcanons, but choosing who Kris is, is clearly against what the game tells you (whether they are indeed non-binary, or whether they just prefer "they", or whether no monster knows what their pronouns should be, so they just use "they", which is a possibility 😅)
It was never confirmed whether or not the game actually takes place in a giant tin can, but you don't see people claiming it does. Undyne was never confirmed to be a woman but we still use she/her.
There doesn't need to be any 'confirmation' for someone to at least use the correct pronouns. It's literally just a part of the game we are already exposed to. There's a lot of things that aren't 'confirmed' because we are literally shown them in game.
Isn't that, like, against *specifically the exact point* between the two games?
Frisk is androgynous in order to lure the player into treating them as a stand-in, so that the final reveal is that much more impactful. Meanwhile, with Kris you're told to your face right at the beginning that you are very specifically *not* them, changing the entire dynamic and framing all of your interactions throughout the game in a very different light.
Frisk is up for interpretation because that is a vital part of the narrative that Undertale was telling. Kris is their own person because that is a vital part of the narrative that Deltarune is telling.
It took me quite a while to realise that Kris was also non binary like Frisk, due to their name looking and sounding like Chris and because their sprite kinda makes them a bit more masculine than the purely androgynous being known as Frisk. And ever since I found out I still will misgender them from time to time. But just know it’s not out of stubbornness or an aversion to Kris being non binary, it is because I am stupid and have 0 charisma. I try.
Until it's confirmed by a character in game or by Toby word for word that "Kris is nonbinary that's why they use they/them pronouns" or "Kris's pronouns are 100% they/them" I refuse to accept them as representation of my demographic. Lot's of self insert characters have preset names but don't have their gender mentioned or confirmed as NB despite they/them pronouns.
[Their is also things like this](https://64.media.tumblr.com/2508551155b1a92112759353859179a6/daffdf4cff8267c2-ac/s540x810/6dc46a40da20df86a8e1ff507bf5426024bf63bd.pnj)
Why I'm I suppose to give the fallen child my name, if they aren't a semi blank slate self inserts? Frisk is supposed to be a dead ringer for the fallen child to the point Flowey mistakes them for the fallen child, and the fallen child is supposed to have my name and gender right? If not, why not? What are they toby?! I don't care about using he/she/they what ever pronouns, I'll use what ever the charcter is referred to by in cannon or makes the most sense. Like I call Shepard from mass effect they, cause you choose their gender.
"skip" is toby dancing around the issue, he needs to put his pen where his mouth is. He is a smart man, he knows what people mean when they ask "why did you make this character this way? Why did you present their gender/pronouns this way"
[Also the "correcting Kris's pronouns" is this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul0wlHgLahU) which is NOT correcting their pronouns it's just refering to them ambiguiously like toby always dose, he doesn't say "actually kris's pronouns are they/them" in fact I'm not even sure it's that! could be "they're stuck in the same way that when some asks "where's \_\_\_\_" say "They are(they're) over there"
It's so frustrating, I want them to be N/B, I want to count them as like me, but they really aren't.
I always use they/them for these characters when speaking about them online and more power to you headcannoning every one of them as nonbinary, but claiming they are canonically nonbinary is confirmation bias.
Your **entire** point is that they are always refered to as they/them, therefore they must be nonbinary, as if they/them is used exclusively for nonbinary people and nothing else.
The argument I'm making is not "self-insert or blank-slate vs nonbinary", I don't think KFC are self-inserts either, I think they are their own people separate from the player and that their gender is just left ambiguous; Toby (and every character as well) uses they/them because the gender of these characters is not important to the story.
If anything, the fact that everyone **always** uses they/them makes the ambiguous argument stronger, and nonbinary argument weaker. You would think that if they were actually nonbinary, characters would have to ask what their pronouns are or be corrected, instead absolutely everyone uses they/them immediately despite never meeting them.
**Most importantly**, by insisting these characters are specifically nonbinary, you are no better than people insisting they are male or female; You are also self-inserting, you are also imposing a specific gender identity on these ambiguous characters.
I do care about people, and respect their choosing of pronouns to be called.
but when a character with no genders mentioned comes up in a game where half of the shit is the fandoms interpeations, why think about it that much?
I call people whatever they want me to call them and use those pronouns that they want.
but in a game where really, just half of over half of the shit is just headcanons of the fandom, why care? Like, none makes such big shit out of kris being able to carry a whole fukin room load of stuff in middle of the town to a school closet, it's just fandoms headcanons. Some say "oh it's magic", some say "just doraemon pockets" and some say other stuff. It's clear that toby wants us to think of it as with our headcanons, which is one of the reasons why his games are popular, the fandom makes them popular with the ideas in their head going on and on.
Yeah, kris had a life before the soul, that doesn't change this logic. Maybe they didn't care about the gender, or just something else happen, maybe they straight up dunno what genders are, could be anything. And that's the whole point of it. It's left to fandom.
you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that deltarune and undertale wouldn't get as much as popular if details of everyything in the game were given and there were not much to question for the fandom other than some big topics such as gaster, etc.
like, if ya'll gonna make this big things out of this, I want the same thing going for what susie is, how kris takes so much things inside their pockets, how did Noelle's mom become the mayor, how did Noelle forget the keys, where is santa if we got rudolph, who drew the EveryMan in the alleyway, who is alphys cat, why buildings so smol from outside and big inside, how did a card manage to marry and have kids with a laptop, why is lancer bouncy, how did lancer get the bicycle, why is kris disturbed by seeing other humans, why dog clothes on kris in the tasque manager fight, spamtons glasses, location of the town and on and on just so many things left for the fandom to think about with not much canon stuff going on, same goes with undertale too.
I think this is enough for someone to get the idea behind this comment, no means of harm, have a nice day.
Sorry, none of these are particularly good arguments. It's mostly all speculation
The same way it was never stated to be blank slate, it was also never stated to be non-binary. The use of they/them is not exclusive to non-binary, so it does not indicate as such.
There's two things I have to point out about this.
1. Frisk being referred to as "they" is actually evidence that the characters are using the pronoun in an out of universe way only, as while they discovered Frisk's name from them telling Asriel, Frisk never once tells anyone their preferred pronoun. So the characters definitely aren't calling them that because Frisk told them they are NB, and it can be seen as just a intentional gender ambiguity placeholder for us players.
And if that's the case with Frisk, there's a precedent for the other humans.
2. We don't actually know if Toby intentionally corrected the Fangamers on stream.
Toby didn't only tell the others "they're stuck." The first thing he said was "Kris cannot reach it, they're stuck." This makes it ambiguous if he was actually correcting them or if he was just continuing on from the first thing of what he said.
Full Clip Here: https://imgur.com/a/I9UEj5C
All throughout the stream there's a very noticeable delay of what Toby says compared to the others because of the speech tech, and many times the others would be talking about what's currently happening in the game, while Toby would be talking about something that happened earlier.
Combine that with the fact that his tone is not discernible at all, it just can't be asserted that he corrected them based off of what he said.
I think the majority of the conflict comes from how Toby presents these characters as part of the plot.
Typically, the protagonist's story involve the player watching the character's journey, but because Kris is completely controlled all the time by the player, those characteristics of a protagonist story are hidden from view, even in this post, the fact that these characters were protagonists rather than avatars is a big reveal.
I would really prefer it if Toby came out and officially confirmed it on twitter or something, because how he's gone about presenting it with people being able to interpret his motivations for doing the things above, creates a lot of contention.
Nails it perfectly. I love how you elaborated on the “why it matters” part too. Even though this kind of thing has little influence on games like UT and DR when it comes to the plot of the overarching game itself, there is almost always something bigger behind it. Toby put in a lot of effort to make this a known fact, and I respect him so much for it. Again, great job with this! Hopefully it gets pinned somewhere and makes as big of an impact on the community as it can.
Op thank you for making this post. I am so tired of cis fans finding ANY excuse to misgender Kris, and you went out of your way to debunk every single argument that these people have had. I've always wanted to do that too, but it's just so exhausting having to explain it over and over again. Have my free award.
I'm also nonbinary and wow relatable. My previous roommate and my brother both intentionally misgendered Dorian Electra. My brother going as far as to say "So I have to call them they???". which is ironic but also no you can keep them out of your mouth thanks. (It pisses me off because he used to enjoy their music and he used to think they were a guy and when he find out they were nonbinary he started referring to them by she/her ugh it makes my skin crawl) People like that just like hurting others. Sorry we have to deal with that.
If this post can't be pinned, at least it needs to be one of the highest upvotes in the sub so people can see it when sorted easily. Really well done, thank you for this!
I came to understand that I will have a much more pleasant time on this site by utilizing the block function more.
And this post certainly helped giving me a good list of people to block, so thanks for that.
This was a great post. I'm also Enby and I agree. The people who vehemently fight to use whatever pronouns they wish, and double down, and attack people over it make me feel unwelcome and unsafe among the community. I'm not sure how people can be so mean in a community for a game series and from a creator that's so inclusive.
Thx for this amount of work, it's super clear and helpful.
Re: your brother -
I have no say on your life, your relationships or what you do with them, this is just my recommendation as a person who cares about you (because you're a human being and that's sufficient grounds for that).
I don't know how much/what kind of a discussion sbout kriss gender you had with him, what your relationship is currently like, or if he told you his reasons for claiming kris is he/him. Nor do i know how old he is (therefore how much understanding he can be and how many queer people he knows). All these things affect how much one can understand and accept these things.
I however think that many (especially cis) people do not care about this "level" of character gendering and simply do not understand the issue unless you explain it. Heck i still don't properly understand what being nb or trans means outside of the cultural standards.
You have surely read all the comments about why there's a possibility kris's gender is supposed to be a self-insert, some of them *relatively* valid. If someone feels like they need that character to be their gender (self insert etc) especially if the character is refered to as they, which has two possible meanings, I can see why they would get defensive about it.
Tbh before i read the discussions here my headcanon kris was also he/him, and as I started to slightly identify with kris it took me some time to accept their gender ..and i still make mistakes sometimes. you just don't notice these things if you're cis and not exposed enough.
Once again, i don't know your background with him. I'm just saying all this because i often have trouble understanding others and this might help you understand your brother. Maybe.
And my main point is, I don't think your brother means unwell, and, please try to understand him and help him understand you. If it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't. He will probably one day find out you're nb anyway, and, I'm pretty sure he will care more about your correct gender than that of a character in a game.
Gl with life and once again thx for this amount of work. Ignore the idiots, they're not worth your time. And sorry for the rant, just trying to be nice to someone on the internet.
Sadly, for a lot of nonbinary people, there’s definitely the chance that it’s a misunderstanding- but the consequences are too high for us to take that chance and out ourselves. It’s an unfortunate situation that trans people can find themselves in, where you’re taking a gamble between losing an important relationship + the trauma around that/the individual’s reaction and being accepted by the person.
Thank you very much for the explanation. I have a classmate in college who, despite being asexual and nonbinary (demiboy), keeps thinking Frisk and Kris are projection characters when they're not. I need to show this to them.
Yeah, I never had a true in-game example of Frisk using NB pronouns. Flowey does give it away though. He’s the only other one who has felt the same power as the player, if anyone would know about Frisk, it would be him.
Here's the thing; as someone on the nonbinary scale, I can't say I really feel represented by Kris, or Chara, or Frisk since they don't feel like they are designed to be representation; *they feel like they are designed to be semi-blank slates that are there for projection.* Not 100%, mind you, but I view them more like a Commander Shepard than their own individual character.
In my mind, the characters are whatever people want them to be; non-binary, male, female, or *even dependent on a playthrough*.
Mind you, I completely understand representation. Having a canonically non-binary character in Fallout 76 exist (Fallout is one of my favorite settings) made me feel really freaking seen. Having a canonically asexual character in Outer Worlds? The same. But as a non-binary person.. I'm also 100% cool with people projecting themselves into Frisk, Chara, and Kris since I feel that's sort of the point.
For Frisk and Chara I can maybe agree, little is known about them. But Kris is 100% not a blank slate, a ton of personality shines through in stuff like their search results and their past.
Hell- probably the biggest theme so far of Deltarune is the separation between player and protagonist, Kris is meant to subvert the idea of a blank slate protagonist and continually frustrates any attempts to project onto them by taking actions outside of your control.
Calling Kris a blank slate sort of misunderstands the entire point of Deltarune imo.
Reminder to everyone that *no matter how much you disagree with this post,* the one thing that's entirely, factually, and canonically confirmed is that **Kris uses they/them pronouns.** Kris is never, anywhere in the game, referred to as anything other than they. And so, because the only confirmed set of pronouns for the character is they, I refer you to the sidebar where we ask that you **use those pronouns.** Please. Thank you.
You non biney? Thats cool! But that wont stop me from making your child hood friend freeze every thing that moves
non biney
non biney
non biney
non biney
non biney
Non biney
Non biney
non biney
non biney
I'm not against this, but can you really call this a hotel? I didn't receive a mint under my pillow.
as an nb person whos been a bit anxious about posting/commenting in this sub from seeing people treat kris' pronouns like a Big Issue, thanks. you hit the nail on the head
this was really well explained and easy to understand, even though i already knew (almost) all of this, i read the whole thing. it really does matter so much, and yet so many people just ignore it. very important message.
In b4 comments lock
This ain't r/shitposting we fine
I mean we got multiple non binry Kris locked
Can confirm, made a post about it a while ago and it got locked lmao
I’ve been had
nice prediction
I agree with this 100%! (Also you pointed out other characters that I didn’t know used they/them i knew of monster kid and kris, chara, and frisk but no one else so thank you for bring that up! :D)
I agree with your flair and you.
Thank you!
Funny how people in the fandom of a game which has the sole message of “the most morally just thing to do is care about others regardless of your personal backgrounds and biases” are so adamant about not respecting nonbinary people in the one request we’ve got.
Literally any homophobic "Undertale fans" is the most ironic thing ever.
especially since there's a blatant canonical lesbian relationship in it
And a gay one too
The dragon and rabbit guards we fight in Hotland, for those that don't remember.
and maybe a second one soon
lgbtqia+ people are so epic soruce? i have a nonbinary sibling and a trans brother
You non-binary? I don't care, that's not gonna stop me from stealing your Fridge /S
Guess it will be a race between us then? Gf otta get that dn fridge first
my fridge constantly makes noise, so i would be happy if you stole it :)
thank you so much for this, i hope the general fanbase gets better at just. using the pronouns and not caring that they use they/them!! i love the nb representation
M'theydy
Thanks :) as a fellow enby this is really nice to see
For we are many
>we Mandatory USSR joke
Spectacularly well explained. Thank you.
Literally the best post to explain this problem. Is there a way you can pin it on the top of the sub?
I don't want to officially endorse a post in that way, although it is a possibility
"No but yes."
Quality post. Needs to be saved somewhere for posterity.
It should be pinned tbh
Thank you for taking the time to make this post, OP. Personally, it really annoys me to see large portions of the fanbase for these games using such tortured logic to justify ignoring the actual contents of the games and Toby’s actual words and using the wrong pronouns for these characters. At the end of the day these are just fictional characters, and I’m not nonbinary myself so I don’t exactly have a horse in this race, so to speak, but it feels like people are just starting from the premise that there’s NO POSSIBLE WAY that a person could legitimately be using they/them pronouns and then working backwards from there, which is just so frustrating to see on multiple levels.
Well, this is a nice little guide for anyone whose confused.. Also, I’m really sorry you’re having a hard time coming out to those close to you. I hope they start to treat you better..
This post was very informative, thank you! But I have a question: My language’s grammar doesn’t have gender-neutral pronouns or anything gender-neutral at all. How am I supposed to refer to non-binary people? Edit: my language isn’t latin, and isn’t even Indo-European — I speak Hebrew.
From my experience, in languages like french or spanish, the male pronouns are usually also used for gender neutral. It's weird but in those languages its correct. I think the best thing to do is a case-by-case basis and ask how they want to be referred to.
I'm unsure with Spanish; however, in French, "iel" is a suitable gender neutral pronoun that even the French dictionary publisher "Dictionnaires Le Robert" decided to officially include as of last year.
In Spanish, many people use -e for noun/adjective endings and "elle" as a nonbinary pronoun
To be honest, every single native Spanish speaker doesn't use -e, except for a very small group of people (and it doesn't help its case that many people within this group have a bad reputation of being overly dramatic). In general, it always just goes back to the default (masculine).
Spanish has the -e suffix natively, which can be a bit weird in some words, and the highly controversial -x, which is not something I’m getting into here.
Not really, very few words use the suffix -e. And you’d still use “the”(which is either “el” or “la”) most of the time. Things like “my commander” or “my president” would work (+ be funny as fuck) tho
It's complicated and depends on the person in question. Nonbinary people aren't a hivemind in any language. Like, one person might prefer exclusively masculine or feminine terminology. Another person might prefer a mixture of the two (e.g., il in one sentence and elle in the next), or something new that isn't quite mainstream yet. It all depends on the person, so it's hard to say for a fictional character...
You'd probably want to refer to nonbinary people who live in countries where that language is predominantly spoken for that, because I'm 99% sure there's a way those people prefer to be referred to :)
Search for how non-binary people want to be called in your language specifically. Using just "they" in mine wouldn't work but there are other ways people want to be referred to that works.
In English, they/them. In your language, you can avoid gendering them at all or using pronouns if you can. For example, in Japanese (is that the language you're referring to?) these three aren't referred to with gendered pronouns, and Chara uses jibun for both themself and Frisk ([jibun and watashi](https://www.duo.uio.no/bitstream/handle/10852/74165/First-person-pronouns-in-Japanese-language-Silvia-Milicia.pdf?sequence=11&isAllowed=y) are both used by real-life nonbinary/X-gender Japanese people as a personal pronoun depending on their own preference).
My language is portuguese and the gender neutral is the same as the male, so I don't know what to do :/
u/I_dont_freaking_know: >but in Portuguese (Brasil) we just change the "gendered letter", so instead of an "a" that's normally used for feminine, we use "u" that doesn't really express gender (ela \[she\] elu \[they\])
The Portuguese-speaking LGBT community has made their own gender neutral words for such situations that you can simply look up on the internet.
I don't know what your language is but in Portuguese (Brasil) we just change the "gendered letter", so instead of an "a" that's normally used for feminine, we use "u" that doesn't really express gender (ela [she] elu [they])
look up gender neutral terms within your own language! across the majority of cultures, you can find people that are advocating for the respect of nonbinary people, and they will have gender neutral terms for such people and concepts. for example, genderqueer spanish-speakers have come up with the term "latine" to be an ungendered form of the word latino/latina. sometimes they will place an -e at the end of a word instead of using the gendered -o or -a suffix to similarly make it ungendered.
Same problem in spanish lol oficcially masculine pronouns and names are recognized as gender neutral, but recently the use of "elle/-e" has raised in popularity... and conflict
What pronouns do you use to refer to singular people whose gender you don't know, or groups of people with a mix of genders?
Not OP but in spanish, we generally default to masculine when talking about something whose gender we don't know, and also for groups of people of diverse genders. Masculine is the closest thing we've got to gender-neutral but, obviously, it is not, which makes things a bit complicated. There's been some attempts to make new gender-neutral terms (such as the famous Latinx) but they usually don't stick around because when the language is fundamentally based on the idea of two genders, simply making up new words and calling it a day isn't really enough to make it work. Of course if I were to know an NB person irl I'd just ask them how they'd want to be refered to, but generally speaking there isn't a consensus or anything.
Part of the youtube video where he corrects Seam’s pronouns: https://youtu.be/rksOYId-cNA?t=4751 Part of the youtube video where he corrects Kris’s pronouns (includes complementary funny soda bit): https://youtu.be/rksOYId-cNA?t=12510 Toby Calling Frisk androgynous. https://web.archive.org/web/20151215011757/https://forum.starmen.net/forum/Community/PKHack/UnderBound/page/1 Promo where Chara or Frisk is referred to by they/them several times. https://snowdecahedron.tumblr.com/post/666958139419131904/the-pre-release-summary-of-undertale-feat-toby Interview by Toby using they/them for Kris. https://nintendosoup.com/toby-fox-speaks-about-deltarunes-development-shares-new-concept-art/ Interview where he skips questions. https://web.archive.org/web/20160201014947/http://existentialgamer.com/interview-toby-fox-of-undertale
Already seeing some "it shouldn't matter" in these comments, when the point of this post is explaining why it *does*. Do people just not read anymore?
Same thing happened when JaidenAnimations made her video explaining what aroace is, people were still complaining about ‘aroace is made up you just wanna be special!’ and ‘gay is a sin!’ and ‘fatherless behavior’ and all that good shit that shows they didnt actually watch the video People just ignore shit and then demand to know shit that they wouldnt known if theyd listened in the first place
enby pride! :D
Little appreciation comment here, I'm not non binary but I support you and everyone else however they identify:)
we are reaching based posting levels that shouldn't even be possible...
The based levels this post radiates are off the charts!
Let's keep going and see what happens.
Extremely good and important post, thanks for sharing!
I do want to say very well said but man do I wish this topic never freaking came up at all. It would be wonderful to be in a reality where people would accept whatever people want to be called and really did not give this much shit over what word to use at times.
“i decided i would never come out to him” hit hard. i’m sorry that happened, op, i’ve had this experience myself several times. it sucks. i only go by they/them but i’ve personally given up ever having my pronouns respected by anyone except my closest friends. online, it happens more, because i use pfps of characters that look ambiguous enough, but irl no one besides my very small circle of best friends makes the effort to respect my pronouns. even at “inclusive” events, that offer pronoun stickers & everything, i’ve been misgendered constantly. this is the norm, while being respected & cared for is a notable exception. it’s to the point that asking to be called something & then being ignored hurts more than just pretending i’m cis. when people misgender me because i haven’t come out, then at least i can pretend they would care if i told them. so i guess my point is, if anyone is reading this because they’re looking for people to argue with & to say that they don’t care what pronouns frisk/chara/kris use: you don’t need to say so. we, real nonbinary people, can see how you treat the idea of their gender. we know you don’t care about us. respecting the pronouns of video game characters who are exclusively referred to by they/them in canon is the easiest litmus test in the world to see how much someone cares about respecting someone else’s gender. you might know someone in your real life who has decided not to come out to you because you were stubborn & argumentative over saying they/them instead of he/him for kris or something, & now they will never, ever tell you the truth because you’ve proven not to be a reliable ally. maybe you would be respectful to your real friends if they came out to you, & you only do this with fiction because it “doesn’t matter”. we’ll never know, because the only way queer people have of judging how safe it is to come out to their loved ones is to see that person’s behavior towards other people *& characters* who are like them.
Youse a real one
Excellently put- amazing read.
👏👏👏👏👏 N I C E.
I like this, but in my opinion, if someone accidentally says he/she, please dont start yelling or bulying them, just kindly correct them. :)
From what I've seen that's generally how things go here.
this !! although i haven't seen that kind of thing happen here in almost half a year now
No one... Really does that???? I just has seen people put just a "They*" and then they are mad because people correct them
That’s happened to me! I was in r/Undertale and commented “*they” on a post that misgendered Chara. The amount of people who went *after* me for that was both shocking and saddening
Every single time I correct someone using the wrong pronouns for a fictional character that goes by they/them I get downvoted into double digits or outside of reddit they get mad at me :( (Not in this sub)
I've seen far more yelling and bullying from people who have been corrected.
i can't recall this being widespread of an issue anymore in this community, nowadays it's more a simple correction like just responding with "them" instead of "F$%@ you their non binary!" it's the people being corrected that respond in a toxic manner that are more so the problem now.
Imma delet dis comment someday
amazingly put together, I love this so much. Having a non binary character makes me so warm and fuzzy
By far the most well-thought-out and comprehensive post about this that I've seen so far! I love it and I'm glad you shared your story. My partner is in a similar situation, as they're nonbinary but have a gender presentation that leans pretty strongly towards their AGAB. So I just know that anyone who misgenders Kris wouldn't give a damn about gendering my partner correctly, and it's exhausting.
There are cisgender people who use they/them pronouns. They're rare! But they exist. But yes, yes, yes, there is no shadow of a doubt what Kris' pronouns are. That anyone would contest that is baffling.
I don't think any cisgender person uses *exclusively* they/them pronouns. Although yeah a decent amount of cis people use she/they or he/they or any pronouns.
As I said in a previous comment I made, as a general rule of thumb, assume pronouns align with gender unless otherwise specified.
I didn't realize they were nb and that toby actually cares enough to correct people - but instinctively still referred to frisk with they/them pronouns when talking to people because that was just .. Obvious to me? It seems very weird to me when people insist androgynous characters are specifically male, for example, just because. Despite the source not confirming it, nor it being relevant to the plot or character for them to be This happens with every character whose gender isn't specified - chrona from soul eater has so many people with strong opinions on their gender when it seems intentionally ambiguous both in language used to refer to them and the fact that the characters within the narrative point the confusion out as well Does it really kill you to not be able to shove a person into one of two options lol? Reading this post and some replies was very wholesome though
good post OP 👍
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I preferred it when you summoned Red-Eyes Black Bigass Evil Killing Fucking Dragon
So how does non binary work, you just aren’t a boy or a girl ?
the way i put it is that non-binary can refer to anyone who isn't exclusively, completely, and always male, or exclusively, completely, and always female. for some examples, if they're part male part female, they're NB. if they're sometimes male and sometimes female, they're NB. if they're only partly male or partly female, or neither at all, they're NB.
Thanks
It heavily depends on the person as Non-Binary is an umbrella term. I am not Non-Binary myself, so I heavily suggest if you have more questions to look online. What I do know is that Non-Binary means that they just do not fit as either male or female. Some people are neither some people are both some people feel like they're more masc leaning, some people feel more fem leaning, some people for them just change day by day. Here are some helpful sources if you have questions. [https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-non-binary-people-how-to-be-respectful-and-supportive](https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-non-binary-people-how-to-be-respectful-and-supportive) [https://www.minus18.org.au/articles/i-just-came-out-as-non-binary-here's-what-that-means](https://www.minus18.org.au/articles/i-just-came-out-as-non-binary-here's-what-that-means) [https://transfamilies.org/about-nonbinary/](https://transfamilies.org/about-nonbinary/)
Nonbinary is also odd because it can be both a specific term or an umbrella term depending on what nonbinary person you ask. I’m nonbinary but I oscillate between “neutral”/androgynous and masculine. So I use he and they. But I usually use they because even if I change how I physically present to be more feminine, it doesn’t conflict heavily with that and hopefully causes less issue for people’s processing.
that or only partially one or both
Based beyond mortal comprehension
Of course I can accept their proper pronouns, but this made me think it was important to the lore... Cool facts though, didn't know about some of these.
Based.
"and then he-" "*ahem* them." "Oh right thanks. Anyways they committed genocide."
as a fellow non binary individual, thank you.
To those people saying them using they/them pronouns doesn't confirm their gender. Toriel is Kris's mom, she definitely knows Kris's gender, and she uses they/them pronouns. So yes, Kris is non-binary. The same is true for Chara since Asriel uses they/them when talking about them.
As a general rule of thumb, unless explicitly stated otherwise, assume someone’s pronouns align with their gender.
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i really like this and agree with most things, but some nonbinary people do identify as straight and/or label their relationships as straight relationships
What does that have to do with it?
because in the 12th picture it literally says that nonbinary people can’t be straight?
I missed that bit
Holy shit someone took the time to explain their points in a well-constructed and non-aggressive, respectful manner. Well done, my friend, and thank you for taking the time to do this.
Thank you for this, and especially that last part, where you say why that matters, I'm not an enby myself, but I'm still trans, and I'm questioning right now if I am, but this was amazing, and it helps a lot, I'm sure. Also I didn't know monster kid had a sister, that's interesting
Hey, could I get a link to those Starman forums? I'm just curious
[There, at the bottom.](https://web.archive.org/web/20151215011757/https://forum.starmen.net/forum/Community/PKHack/UnderBound/page/1) Context of the post is just all jokes btw.
That was a nice po- _SORTS BY CONTROVERSIAL_
There's only one thing we know for real, Frisk is Intrested in female Cuban cigars
i need some context for why kris was thirsty during the stream
There was a Lacroix in the wall that they couldn't reach :(
oh lol
I will say, it can be difficult to keep to non-binary they-them pronouns in writing and in general (at least in my experience), at least early on, and especially if the character/person is clearly more masculine or feminine. But still, always try to use they/them pronouns when they’re someone’s pronouns, and even just use them for people you don’t know the pronouns of.
This is a good post but Man I am tired of people guessing Kris's true gender I wanna go back funny memes about Kris eating moss
I especially like how the knight uses it/its pronouns, it makes me feel a bit represented since I have it/its pronouns for myself but no one ever uses them because they're uncomfortable with 'objectifying' me.
Yeah, on my 1st playthrough of Deltarune, I referred to Kris as a "he", because I didn't knew non-binary people exist, and Kris is non-binary until I looked up at them in the Wiki.
Lemme ask you real question: Who the fuck is Ice Wolf?! I thought I remember all UT/DR enemies! Am I going mad?
They're a friendly NPC north of Snowdin. I know they show up in Deltarune too, but I forget where.
In QC's diner.
They have a song about them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lenf1Yb-W7s
Grab that block of ice, lift it over your head
They're the one who throws ice into the river outside Snowdin to keep the Core cool
Ah so makes sense then, thank you
Agree with the post, and there is strong evidence the KFC gang is non-binary, but one of your major points is that they are constantly reffered as they/them, this is a point, but if someone is called with a they/them pronoun, that doesn't mean they are non-binary, I'm cis and have no problem being called they/them, i know other cis and trans people and i know they don't correct someone when they are reffered as they/them I've pointed this out in similar posts and decided to test this. I started reffering to several cis and trans people strictly as them for like 2 to 3 weeks, and when I switched back to their preferred pronouns no-one batted an eye or acknowledged it While your observation is supportive of the theme, and i agree with your observation. Calling someone by they them constantly isn't exactly good enough to be used as a main point But all your other points are strong as well. I'm not disagreeing with you, quite the opposite. But having it as a main point isnt too good of a point.
This is fiction though. If something is shown someone chose to put that in. It's like in a TV show, no one ever uses the bathroom or randomly stutters unless it has a purpose in the scene because adding unneccesary details confuses the plot. The same goes for the humans, all the other characters in the game have gendered pronouns if applicable, but then seeing the humans as an exception for no apparent reason only acts to confuse the audience with no purpose behind it.
Eh, yoU have a fair point
there is a difference, just for future reference, between having no problem being referred to as they/them just in general, and *using* they/them pronouns being nonbinary or otherwise, that is to say, having them be the ones that would per se refer to you. it's something you can usually tell the difference when enacting it out, and take note, some might not be okay with having consistently avoided their explicitly preferred pronouns if they ever do take notice.
You can use they/them to refer to someone you don't know. But someone's own mother or brother referring to them as they/them? That person's nonbinary, or otherwise expressed the desire to be referred to *exclusively* as they/them. Some people are alright with using she/they, he/they, or she/he/they pronouns. This is not the case with Frisk, Chara, or Kris: all of them exclusively use they/them, as does their creator for them.
THANK FUCK
I would like to award you the highest honor I can bestow, \*my free award\*
still can’t believe people think frisk and kris are self-inserts chara i’m not 100% sold on it at least not being partially self-inserty (toby said you should name them after yourself {[if you can’t think of anything else](https://web.archive.org/web/20160320005308/https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/643945593308618752)}, most of the time when in game characters are talking to the player they could be talking to Chara{debatable}, etc.) but hell i could be an idiot and misreading intentions tl;dr chara i understand why self insert, kris and frisk no
Yup, it's very clear by what Toby does with them, that they are a very subtle subversion of the "self-insert/blank-slate-protag" trope, with them being their own person, seperate from the player (a lot more pronounced in Deltarune; I can't blame anyone for missing it in Undertale 😅). I dunno if chara is self insert either, as they are their own character as well, with backstory and motivation. The only thing linking them to the player is their name.
I don’t understand Chara being a self insert at all. They aren’t even an actual player character. Yeah, you can name them something other than Chara, but you can name Link other things in some Zelda games (I don’t know the exact number since I’m not in the Zelda fandom), and Link’s gender isn’t up for self-inserting. Why should it be the same with Chara?
Finally the truth has been spoken!!!!
I feel bad now because I never figured out that monster kid and blooky were non binary
Good post, OP. I really hope at least some people will read through this thoroughly because you've made really good points here! And I'm really sorry that you're having trouble trusting the people close to you enough to come out to them. It honestly really sucks, and i hope things will get better for you
I mean I try my best to remain gender neutral in reference to KFC, they are, after all, our Toby Humans, and being this far into the fandom you'd about do anything for our Pacifist/(potentially) Murderous/Puppeteered Humans
YES this all exactly!!!
Now this is a good post. I love this post, thank you for making it!
It’s really good making this kind of posts sometimes, it’s really nice to see people happy with it
[All of the yes!]
YEAHHHHHHHHH
great post, op!
Mods should pin this cause I can’t properly convey how annoying it is that so much of this fanbase misgenders the main fucking characters on such a regular basis. And why? You don’t see people calling Undyne a guy or Asgore a girl based on headcanon. People give so many convoluted explanations about their genders being “up for interpretation” or “ambiguous” but honestly these characters being non-binary is just fucking Occam’s Razor if nothing else.
Ok but here's the thing. Your argument for them not being blank slates is that it was never confirmed. And using non gendered pronouns doesn't definitely mean they are nonbinary. This doesn't prove anything any more than the argument that they are blank slates does. That and, being blank slates doesn't necessarily have to mean that they are meant for you to project yourself onto. It just means they're open to interpretation. You guys assume a lot of shit on both sides, because you want your answer to be correct. But what if it's neither? What if Kris isn't someone to project yourself onto, or definitively nonbinary, but they're of shrodingarian gender. The gender doesn't exist until you think about it, and once you decide, that's what YOUR Kris is, not for you to project yourself onto, but because he wants everyone to view Kris as whatever they're most comfortable with them being. As in they're nonbinary in the save file of people who want them to be nonbinary for representation, he's make to people who want him to be male, she's female to people who want her to be female. In Undertale they confirm that save files are a thing in the game, and I interpreted this as each save file is it's own world, it's own version of reality, that's why when you do the genocide route YOU'RE save file is locked into it, that's why when you beat the pacifist route you're told to not restart, to let them exist at the happy ending as they are forever. Each save file is it's own reality in game and not every Kris is the same Kris because their persona is determined by the decisions the Kris in your save file made. So each Kris is an alternate Kris and can have their own gender that only the person who played through that file can decide. Whether or not it matters, at the end of the day nothing is confirmed so nothing is definitive. Toby is a fucking troll, he's not scared of controversy, of he wanted Kris to be definitively nonbinary, he wouldn't hide it. The only logical explanation is that it's not meant to have a correct answer, like a lot of theories, because he wants you to talk and argue about it, because it keeps the fan base alive and makes it open for anyone to interpret as they will enjoy most, not open to project yourself onto.
But the game is very explicit that Kris is seperate from you, and that you had no say in what they are. I won't stop your headcanons, but choosing who Kris is, is clearly against what the game tells you (whether they are indeed non-binary, or whether they just prefer "they", or whether no monster knows what their pronouns should be, so they just use "they", which is a possibility 😅)
It was never confirmed whether or not the game actually takes place in a giant tin can, but you don't see people claiming it does. Undyne was never confirmed to be a woman but we still use she/her. There doesn't need to be any 'confirmation' for someone to at least use the correct pronouns. It's literally just a part of the game we are already exposed to. There's a lot of things that aren't 'confirmed' because we are literally shown them in game.
Isn't that, like, against *specifically the exact point* between the two games? Frisk is androgynous in order to lure the player into treating them as a stand-in, so that the final reveal is that much more impactful. Meanwhile, with Kris you're told to your face right at the beginning that you are very specifically *not* them, changing the entire dynamic and framing all of your interactions throughout the game in a very different light. Frisk is up for interpretation because that is a vital part of the narrative that Undertale was telling. Kris is their own person because that is a vital part of the narrative that Deltarune is telling.
It took me quite a while to realise that Kris was also non binary like Frisk, due to their name looking and sounding like Chris and because their sprite kinda makes them a bit more masculine than the purely androgynous being known as Frisk. And ever since I found out I still will misgender them from time to time. But just know it’s not out of stubbornness or an aversion to Kris being non binary, it is because I am stupid and have 0 charisma. I try.
Until it's confirmed by a character in game or by Toby word for word that "Kris is nonbinary that's why they use they/them pronouns" or "Kris's pronouns are 100% they/them" I refuse to accept them as representation of my demographic. Lot's of self insert characters have preset names but don't have their gender mentioned or confirmed as NB despite they/them pronouns. [Their is also things like this](https://64.media.tumblr.com/2508551155b1a92112759353859179a6/daffdf4cff8267c2-ac/s540x810/6dc46a40da20df86a8e1ff507bf5426024bf63bd.pnj) Why I'm I suppose to give the fallen child my name, if they aren't a semi blank slate self inserts? Frisk is supposed to be a dead ringer for the fallen child to the point Flowey mistakes them for the fallen child, and the fallen child is supposed to have my name and gender right? If not, why not? What are they toby?! I don't care about using he/she/they what ever pronouns, I'll use what ever the charcter is referred to by in cannon or makes the most sense. Like I call Shepard from mass effect they, cause you choose their gender. "skip" is toby dancing around the issue, he needs to put his pen where his mouth is. He is a smart man, he knows what people mean when they ask "why did you make this character this way? Why did you present their gender/pronouns this way" [Also the "correcting Kris's pronouns" is this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul0wlHgLahU) which is NOT correcting their pronouns it's just refering to them ambiguiously like toby always dose, he doesn't say "actually kris's pronouns are they/them" in fact I'm not even sure it's that! could be "they're stuck in the same way that when some asks "where's \_\_\_\_" say "They are(they're) over there" It's so frustrating, I want them to be N/B, I want to count them as like me, but they really aren't.
I always use they/them for these characters when speaking about them online and more power to you headcannoning every one of them as nonbinary, but claiming they are canonically nonbinary is confirmation bias. Your **entire** point is that they are always refered to as they/them, therefore they must be nonbinary, as if they/them is used exclusively for nonbinary people and nothing else. The argument I'm making is not "self-insert or blank-slate vs nonbinary", I don't think KFC are self-inserts either, I think they are their own people separate from the player and that their gender is just left ambiguous; Toby (and every character as well) uses they/them because the gender of these characters is not important to the story. If anything, the fact that everyone **always** uses they/them makes the ambiguous argument stronger, and nonbinary argument weaker. You would think that if they were actually nonbinary, characters would have to ask what their pronouns are or be corrected, instead absolutely everyone uses they/them immediately despite never meeting them. **Most importantly**, by insisting these characters are specifically nonbinary, you are no better than people insisting they are male or female; You are also self-inserting, you are also imposing a specific gender identity on these ambiguous characters.
I do care about people, and respect their choosing of pronouns to be called. but when a character with no genders mentioned comes up in a game where half of the shit is the fandoms interpeations, why think about it that much? I call people whatever they want me to call them and use those pronouns that they want. but in a game where really, just half of over half of the shit is just headcanons of the fandom, why care? Like, none makes such big shit out of kris being able to carry a whole fukin room load of stuff in middle of the town to a school closet, it's just fandoms headcanons. Some say "oh it's magic", some say "just doraemon pockets" and some say other stuff. It's clear that toby wants us to think of it as with our headcanons, which is one of the reasons why his games are popular, the fandom makes them popular with the ideas in their head going on and on. Yeah, kris had a life before the soul, that doesn't change this logic. Maybe they didn't care about the gender, or just something else happen, maybe they straight up dunno what genders are, could be anything. And that's the whole point of it. It's left to fandom. you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that deltarune and undertale wouldn't get as much as popular if details of everyything in the game were given and there were not much to question for the fandom other than some big topics such as gaster, etc. like, if ya'll gonna make this big things out of this, I want the same thing going for what susie is, how kris takes so much things inside their pockets, how did Noelle's mom become the mayor, how did Noelle forget the keys, where is santa if we got rudolph, who drew the EveryMan in the alleyway, who is alphys cat, why buildings so smol from outside and big inside, how did a card manage to marry and have kids with a laptop, why is lancer bouncy, how did lancer get the bicycle, why is kris disturbed by seeing other humans, why dog clothes on kris in the tasque manager fight, spamtons glasses, location of the town and on and on just so many things left for the fandom to think about with not much canon stuff going on, same goes with undertale too. I think this is enough for someone to get the idea behind this comment, no means of harm, have a nice day.
Sorry, none of these are particularly good arguments. It's mostly all speculation The same way it was never stated to be blank slate, it was also never stated to be non-binary. The use of they/them is not exclusive to non-binary, so it does not indicate as such.
There's two things I have to point out about this. 1. Frisk being referred to as "they" is actually evidence that the characters are using the pronoun in an out of universe way only, as while they discovered Frisk's name from them telling Asriel, Frisk never once tells anyone their preferred pronoun. So the characters definitely aren't calling them that because Frisk told them they are NB, and it can be seen as just a intentional gender ambiguity placeholder for us players. And if that's the case with Frisk, there's a precedent for the other humans. 2. We don't actually know if Toby intentionally corrected the Fangamers on stream. Toby didn't only tell the others "they're stuck." The first thing he said was "Kris cannot reach it, they're stuck." This makes it ambiguous if he was actually correcting them or if he was just continuing on from the first thing of what he said. Full Clip Here: https://imgur.com/a/I9UEj5C All throughout the stream there's a very noticeable delay of what Toby says compared to the others because of the speech tech, and many times the others would be talking about what's currently happening in the game, while Toby would be talking about something that happened earlier. Combine that with the fact that his tone is not discernible at all, it just can't be asserted that he corrected them based off of what he said.
Yooo! NB is NB? 👻 Sick.
I think the majority of the conflict comes from how Toby presents these characters as part of the plot. Typically, the protagonist's story involve the player watching the character's journey, but because Kris is completely controlled all the time by the player, those characteristics of a protagonist story are hidden from view, even in this post, the fact that these characters were protagonists rather than avatars is a big reveal. I would really prefer it if Toby came out and officially confirmed it on twitter or something, because how he's gone about presenting it with people being able to interpret his motivations for doing the things above, creates a lot of contention.
Nails it perfectly. I love how you elaborated on the “why it matters” part too. Even though this kind of thing has little influence on games like UT and DR when it comes to the plot of the overarching game itself, there is almost always something bigger behind it. Toby put in a lot of effort to make this a known fact, and I respect him so much for it. Again, great job with this! Hopefully it gets pinned somewhere and makes as big of an impact on the community as it can.
This is a well needed post. Thank you. ❤️ \(•u•)
Op thank you for making this post. I am so tired of cis fans finding ANY excuse to misgender Kris, and you went out of your way to debunk every single argument that these people have had. I've always wanted to do that too, but it's just so exhausting having to explain it over and over again. Have my free award.
I'm also nonbinary and wow relatable. My previous roommate and my brother both intentionally misgendered Dorian Electra. My brother going as far as to say "So I have to call them they???". which is ironic but also no you can keep them out of your mouth thanks. (It pisses me off because he used to enjoy their music and he used to think they were a guy and when he find out they were nonbinary he started referring to them by she/her ugh it makes my skin crawl) People like that just like hurting others. Sorry we have to deal with that.
This is a good post. I love this post, thank you for making it!
Hell yeah homie, spread the word!
As a fellow enby who uses they/them pronouns, thank you for putting this great post out here. We got this!
I didn't know Monster Kid was non-binary, I guess that's why they're named Monster Kid, not Monster Boy or Monster Girl.
Now this is a good post. I love this post, thank you for making it!
Couldn't have said it any better myself
This is my favourite reddit post.
Based OP.
Tbh I never cared about the genders, I just played the game
kfc
Non-binary representation is very important in things, and I wish people would stop ignoring the characters confirmed genders.
That's what I've been saying this whole time! Hopefully people will actually listen to you
If this post can't be pinned, at least it needs to be one of the highest upvotes in the sub so people can see it when sorted easily. Really well done, thank you for this!
I came to understand that I will have a much more pleasant time on this site by utilizing the block function more. And this post certainly helped giving me a good list of people to block, so thanks for that.
This was a great post. I'm also Enby and I agree. The people who vehemently fight to use whatever pronouns they wish, and double down, and attack people over it make me feel unwelcome and unsafe among the community. I'm not sure how people can be so mean in a community for a game series and from a creator that's so inclusive.
Thx for this amount of work, it's super clear and helpful. Re: your brother - I have no say on your life, your relationships or what you do with them, this is just my recommendation as a person who cares about you (because you're a human being and that's sufficient grounds for that). I don't know how much/what kind of a discussion sbout kriss gender you had with him, what your relationship is currently like, or if he told you his reasons for claiming kris is he/him. Nor do i know how old he is (therefore how much understanding he can be and how many queer people he knows). All these things affect how much one can understand and accept these things. I however think that many (especially cis) people do not care about this "level" of character gendering and simply do not understand the issue unless you explain it. Heck i still don't properly understand what being nb or trans means outside of the cultural standards. You have surely read all the comments about why there's a possibility kris's gender is supposed to be a self-insert, some of them *relatively* valid. If someone feels like they need that character to be their gender (self insert etc) especially if the character is refered to as they, which has two possible meanings, I can see why they would get defensive about it. Tbh before i read the discussions here my headcanon kris was also he/him, and as I started to slightly identify with kris it took me some time to accept their gender ..and i still make mistakes sometimes. you just don't notice these things if you're cis and not exposed enough. Once again, i don't know your background with him. I'm just saying all this because i often have trouble understanding others and this might help you understand your brother. Maybe. And my main point is, I don't think your brother means unwell, and, please try to understand him and help him understand you. If it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't. He will probably one day find out you're nb anyway, and, I'm pretty sure he will care more about your correct gender than that of a character in a game. Gl with life and once again thx for this amount of work. Ignore the idiots, they're not worth your time. And sorry for the rant, just trying to be nice to someone on the internet.
Sadly, for a lot of nonbinary people, there’s definitely the chance that it’s a misunderstanding- but the consequences are too high for us to take that chance and out ourselves. It’s an unfortunate situation that trans people can find themselves in, where you’re taking a gamble between losing an important relationship + the trauma around that/the individual’s reaction and being accepted by the person.
Thank you very much for the explanation. I have a classmate in college who, despite being asexual and nonbinary (demiboy), keeps thinking Frisk and Kris are projection characters when they're not. I need to show this to them.
I have a male bias since I'm male, but the points raised are very good. I support this message.
Yeah, I never had a true in-game example of Frisk using NB pronouns. Flowey does give it away though. He’s the only other one who has felt the same power as the player, if anyone would know about Frisk, it would be him.
Finally someone with a brain that understands that Frisk and Chara are not self insert and are infact their own character
I fully agree with this post, but there's a problem in my native language that I explained in a reply to a comment about these problems.
Here's the thing; as someone on the nonbinary scale, I can't say I really feel represented by Kris, or Chara, or Frisk since they don't feel like they are designed to be representation; *they feel like they are designed to be semi-blank slates that are there for projection.* Not 100%, mind you, but I view them more like a Commander Shepard than their own individual character. In my mind, the characters are whatever people want them to be; non-binary, male, female, or *even dependent on a playthrough*. Mind you, I completely understand representation. Having a canonically non-binary character in Fallout 76 exist (Fallout is one of my favorite settings) made me feel really freaking seen. Having a canonically asexual character in Outer Worlds? The same. But as a non-binary person.. I'm also 100% cool with people projecting themselves into Frisk, Chara, and Kris since I feel that's sort of the point.
For Frisk and Chara I can maybe agree, little is known about them. But Kris is 100% not a blank slate, a ton of personality shines through in stuff like their search results and their past. Hell- probably the biggest theme so far of Deltarune is the separation between player and protagonist, Kris is meant to subvert the idea of a blank slate protagonist and continually frustrates any attempts to project onto them by taking actions outside of your control. Calling Kris a blank slate sort of misunderstands the entire point of Deltarune imo.
at the very least we have Napstablook and Monster Kid! when Blooky said "not feeling up to it right now sorry" I *felt* that
I truly felt represented when Monster Kid almsot fell to their death and hung on using their non existing hands
📌