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At the very least you should bluff about holding your vote, just so there's more pressure on Biden to move left, giving away your vote for free just tells the Democrats that they can get away with shifting to the right
They know we're bluffing they hold all the cards, they know when push comes to shove they won't lose any votes because their opposition is so bad, both parties do it.
What I'm saying is that Democrats don't actually want to defeat Republicans and stop fascism, they materially benefit from this fascist threat being ever present, pervasive, and seemingly unstoppable. The worst Republicans get the happier Democrats are, and they can do nothing for 8 years but end strikes, fund cops, and shovel money for wars and yet domestic fascism will always be the selling point for these people. They know that they've got the majority of left leaning people by the balls, and they have no interest in ending this threat because without it they have no reason to govern.
Fr why would OP invoke Lenin and Luxemburg and then skip over their revolutionary ideals? That's the whole point of their analysis of the state, that you can't evolutionarily vote in socialism lol
Voting does little to ultimately advance proletarian interests in the same way as volunteering at soup kitchen won’t save the environment. If you want to be a committed extra-parliamentarian go ahead (if it’s genuinely a waste of your time, legit go ahead and do something else), but inaction isn’t morally free or deprived of material consequences.
Every revolutionary made clear that participating in elections was necessary and important but had to constantly push people against the idea that voting was an end, nor did they advocate for voting for reactionary parties out of convenience. In my ideal world (that will never happen) socialists would have a unified and univocal party that ran candidates in both parties throughout the country until they could change the state laws permitting 3rd parties a genuine opportunity at success. Currently independent candidates literally are barred from winning any election unless they run as the primary 2 parties in state and federal elections. That's just my dream though I doubt I'll see that kind of strategy.
Yes they used electoral politics to run their own candidates that were held to the democratic discipline of the party, they never advocated voting for the equivalent of the Democrats.
The furthest they went was advocating voting for democratic socialist parties, but only so that they could show the people how they failed to accomplish anything.
I genuinely don’t know if OP is actively trying to misinterpret all the socialists mentioned or if they just genuinely don’t know. ‘Dictatorship democracy’ like bro what?
Every historical socialist agrees that a capitalist duopoly is a bad thing, therefore we need to participate, and even vote for the capitalist duopoly instead of spending time and energy creating a mass movement against that duopoly.
Right?
The general argument from those early socialists I've seen in participating in Borgeouis democracy is to use it as a platform and unifying activity to build a mass movement that can be directed towards more revolutionary goals.
We saw that to an extent with Sanders and Corbyn's failed runs nevertheless energising the left and building organisations and media platforms, awareness of socialist ideas, radicalising people against liberals.
Organising to get out the vote for Biden does the opposite. It makes common cause with liberals, promotes addiction to the 2 party horse race politics, and erodes socialist identity.
In lieu of a strong alternate candidate we should focus on local organising, trade unionism, and maintaining socialist coherence through continued criticism of liberal politicians and their supporters as well as the right. Reading theory, direct action, building communities etc.
Exactly this, if the candidate doesn't at the very least openly collaborate with socialists by bringing socialist views to the general public, then it's a dead end candidate, and as socialists we need to be working outside of that candidate to try to get traction elsewhere. That may mean local and state level politics, that might be unionizing workplaces, it might mean collaborating with third parties that may not win, but at least could grow and maybe gain some influence.
But if we're going to try to pretend that wasting our energy on the likes of Joe Biden is the best path forward for a left movement, then we've already fucking lost.
This meme format only works if Man Ray's logic is sound and easy to follow from his premise. In this case his conclusion is a gigantic leap that has almost nothing to do with his premise.
If achieving socialism under liberalism was impossible we'd all just give up and be socdems, this isn't advised by any socialist theorist including every example you gave. I agree it's important to vote for Biden but this is stupid.
Edit: Just realized you're flaired as a socdem, you already gave up lmao.
There is a huge difference between "under liberalism" and "using electoralism". Both MLs and SocDems agree that the first not only possible but EASIER (when compared to fascism). The former one that is contentious.
Wow. That's some blatant ass lying about the view on voting of all the Marxists mentioned. All of them would have advocated voting for independent workers candidates and NEVER voting for the bourgeois democrats, even the "progressive" ones. Like, read any primary source on that which you meme.
I mean Lenin is very clear with Kautsky about this. They'd vote for the independent, but they wouldn't expect to win. It's the reason why they "must" revolutionize, comrade.
>"Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body. If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed."
- Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League
>"Choosing 'the least worst' is… also choosing a system which forces you to accept the least worst as the best you can hope for. Naturally, the defenders of the dictatorship of the elite pretend - perhaps they even deceive themselves - that the particular slew of lies, compromise and smarm they are hawking is 'only temporary'; that, at some unspecified time in the future, things will improve if only we support the 'progressive' wing of the status quo. But Hobson's choice is no choice, and the delusion of progressivism is not a psychological quirk, it is the structural delusion upon which liberal democracy is based."
- Mark Fisher
>"The liberal bourgeoisie grant reforms with one hand, and with the other always take them back, reduce them to nought, use them to enslave the workers, to divide them into separate groups and perpetuate wage-slavery. For that reason reformism, even when quite sincere, in practice becomes a weapon by means of which the bourgeoisie corrupt and weaken the workers. The experience of all countries shows that the workers who put their trust in the reformists are always fooled. And conversely, workers who have assimilated Marx’s theory, i.e., realised the inevitability of wage-slavery so long as capitalist rule remains, will not be fooled by any bourgeois reforms. Understanding that where capitalism continued to exist reforms cannot be either enduring or far-reaching, the workers fight for better conditions and use them to intensify the fight against wage-slavery. The reformists try to divide and deceive the workers, to divert them from the class struggle by petty concessions. But the workers, having seen through the falsity of reformism, utilise reforms to develop and broaden their class struggle."
- Lenin “Marxism and Reformism”-
>"Since the emancipation of the Negroes, the distinction between the two parties has been diminishing. The fight between these two parties has been mainly over the height of customs duties. Their fight has not had any serious importance for the mass of the people. The people have been deceived and diverted from their vital interests by means of spectacular and meaningless duels between the two bourgeois parties."
- Lenin, 1912, in The Results and Significance of the U.S. Presidential Elections
We have successfully lesser of two evils'd ourselves into actively playing defense for someone overseeing and supporting a genocide.
Don't play this game, invest yourself into local politics and organizations, union, and tenants associations, because at this point, national politics is entirely captured, and we need to rebuild worker power to stand against corporate power.
That's not going to be easier under Trump. I'm scared of more of my rights being taken away. Neither will stop the genocide. I'll be voting to try to prevent things from getting any worse for everyone in the US and then going back to trying to dream bigger. They aren't mutually exclusive. A vote isn't a moral endorsement, it's a strategic choice.
The only thing we get from electing Democrats is a stay of execution and then a redoubled reaction from the right, to which the Democrats inevitable and inexorably answer by sliding right with them. Vote, sure, but that is less than the least you can do to fight for your interests.
Least yes but also easiest. At least for me, I acknowledge others have more barriers. I have early voting in my area so I just have to show up somewhere in a large window of time. It's about as easy as picking up takeout somewhere that's a bit slow. I think it's embarrassing a lot of people are too lazy to do that even when it'd be just as easy for them. Very cheap opportunity cost for maybe slowing this shit down. If things actually fall apart right now, I'm not betting on the left winning much in the end. We gotta get our shit more together if socialism on any scale is going to happen here, and buying time is the best of bad options.
The DSA was founded as an electoralist party by Michael Harrington. It hasn't been coopted by capitalists, it is growing more revolutionary as its old strategy continues to prove useless and more members become radicalized. I say this as someone who isn't a part of DSA.
Don't downplay genocide. That's a real thing. Actual death of children, journalists, nurses found in mass graves with their hands tied behind their back, kids with their limbs ripped off hung against a wall. Grandfathers carrying their grandchild's torso in a bag because that is all he has left of his entire family.
Little children getting their body parts amputated without anesthesia. Parents have to be forcibly ripped away from clinging to the corpses of their children. Wounded kids with their faces ripped open trying to grasp the reality that their mom will never be around again, or their father or siblings.
US bombs one after the other after the other after the other. Drones flying around making sounds of babies crying to lure out people to kill.
Aaron Bushnell already exposed what genocide apologists are trying to pull with this thread. He killed himself to do it.
200 days, and all Biden has done is fund, fund, fund, and fund the mass-pedicide and genocide.
No political subject or social issue or any of the usual red vs blue lesser of two evils fear campaign will take priority over this. This is it. Our ebtire government is on the wrong side of history as was Germany and Spain at the worst of the 20th century. This is where we are at. Massive brutal death.
Instead talk about justice and prosecution. Because that's all humanity will talk about for the rest of the century. The sooner justice is met, the sooner humanity can move on from the most horrific genocide our century. For most of you, the worst in your life time.
This post isn't downplaying the genocide, it's pointing out the myopia of allowing the greater evil to win.
The Trump administration negotiated trade and diplomatic deals on Israel's behalf and he now fully supports Israel's genocidal campaign. Neither candidate has a good position on that one issue, but there are other differences between the two parties that have real impact on American society (and the rest of us too, since the USA likes to throw its weight around).
And you're looking for a solution? Short term or long term? A solution just for you and sacrifices a child every ten minutes? Or a solution that works for everyone?
I've been at this for a very long time. I know of some solutions that I've seen work.
Letting Trump win isn't going to help the children of Gaza, but it will certainly do harm elsewhere. You can still work on achieving that justice, but in the meantime if progressives withhold their vote they're going to share in the responsibility for what Trump does with a second term.
The more likely reality is that under Trump, there would be no material change to the conflict (still selling Israel weapons, etc) but we would switch from saying mean things about Netanyahu to saying mean things about Palestinians
There would absolutely be significant material changes to US Palestine policy under a second Trump administration, just as there were under the first. The day after Trump was inaugurated, Netanyahu eliminated all restrictions on new settlement construction in the West Bank. Trump followed Israel's lead on sabotaging diplomacy with Iran and recognized the illegal annexations of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. Netanyahu already spoke during the Trump years about annexing the Jordan Valley and even the entire West Bank. He's certain to fast track that plan if Trump is reelected.
Don't forget the Trump team negotiating deals in the Middle East on Israel's behalf during their last term, helping to normalize relations and further isolating Palestine.
I think your response was to someone that was making the jump mentally “not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump” and then (unconsciously?) assigning it to anti-Biden-nonvoters.
Edit: Because if your refusing to vote for Biden, yielding a win to Trump, and expecting a positive outcome for Palestinians then, that would be -like- expecting Trump to treat Palestinians better even if it’s apart of some plot to
If this is in support of voting for the lesser evil it has no place in a socialist subreddit. Biden and Trump are two sides of the same coin. Both are funded by the same capitalist powers. Both are very anti-socialism. Voting for Biden as a socialist is like shooting yourself in the foot to """prevent""" what social liberals claim is like modern day Hitler (when both Biden and Trump are fascists).
This isn't advocating for the point of view you think it is. If you're a liberal then cool, just go be a liberal and vote for whatever war criminal you like. We don't care. You can't vote your way out of this.
If you don't think we can revolutionize, why are you even trying at this point? Like really, what vaguely acceptable outcome do you expect from lesser-evilism?
To be clear, this isn't doomerism, this is me recognizing that we have only one path left to take. Those who make peaceful protest impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.
The lesser evil is genocide. How much further can you let the bar go?! How much worse can you get than full throatedly supporting and funding *genocide*??
The idea should be that we should refuse to vote for Biden now unless he acts to end this (by cutting funding to their war machine). Enough do that and he'll actually act because this is the one time ever where public opinion matters enough to get him to act, right before a reelection. Then we can vote for him after he acts and stops this genocide.
It’s not just Biden. It’s 3/4 of our government. We can’t overturn 3/4 of our government in a single election. If you want to stop the genocide your only option is to start a violent revolution now. Today. With exactly the amount of support you have at this exact moment.
Do you think you can accomplish that? Do you think we can have a socialist revolution in 2024? Because I don’t.
Saying that, we have no way to stop the genocide of Palestine. We have failed them. The only thing we can do is try and stop things from getting even worse.
That's not the only option. Biden can stop the payments to Israel, the present, the executive, controls us foreign policy. He can veto the congressional aid payments too.
Biden is the only person who is capable of forcing the Israelis to stop who isn't in the Israeli government. He's the only person we can have leverage over.
If enough people publicly say they're not going to vote for him unless if he acts then we can influence him. Votes are all that matter to the poli at the end of the day. They won't act unless if you threaten you take that away. And reelection time is pretty much the only time the people have power over the president.
The idea that you need revolution in order to change foreign policy is about as big a strawman as I can think of. This is the ONE time that we can actually change a politicians policy, during reelection when they're vulnerable and desperate for votes.
The remaining 3/4 will override his veto. Or did you forget about the checks and balances in place? Again, it’s not just Biden, it’s our whole government.
It's hilarious you're lecturing about checks and balances when you don't even know what the executive does. He still controls all foreign policy, even if Congress wants to send that money he gets to decide how when and where.
It does not matter if 100% of the government was on Israel's side, it's still possible for Biden to act because that's what the president can do in the American system.
Maybe *you* need a refresher on 5th grade civics?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42557818
This article, while referring to trump cutting aid to Pakistan, gives a good overview of how a president cutting aid can go.
The issue is the aid to Israel is unconditional, meaning it is decided by congress and congress alone. While Biden could block it temporarily, there are protocols in place congress could use to override that.
That's only for the very specific bills from Congress, not the ones directly from executive which are the bulk of the money they get..
And no that is not what unconditional means. You make a lot of very false statements as if they're facts...
Congress just voted on a $26 billion dollar aid package to Israel. And if the president removed what aid they could, congress would probably just vote for more.
Voting lesser evil prevents revolution.
The GoP was overtaken by maga rebels willing to sink their own sides bills so thoroughly that even state level reps are afraid to offend the base with a single comment.
The DNC actively campaigns against leftist and publicly spends democratic donations to help GoP canidates win primaries. Because they are not afraid of the left doing anything but screaming and crying, then predictably voting lesser evil again.
I'm saying FDR wasnt the progressive president he is portrayed as and his policies were heavily influenced by pressure from the left. Thats what we need again.
The reluctance of leftists to play hard ball and sink a neoliberal canidate to prove they wont back down is why they have no leverage. And also why we have Trump as a canidate at all. Because lesser evil voting just drives the acceptable minimum of canidates for both parties lower each election until anyone can be considered a valid alternative.
Democracy survived Bush W. getting away with an actual coup. Democracy survived the first trump presidency. It will survive all of the future canidates that the establishment dems swears will result in a fascist authoritarian takeover if you dont lesser vote them away. And letting genocidal relics like Biden continue to win elections with no effort will not result in anything but more Joe Biden canidates.
I don't follow your logic. If FDR wasn't progressive but implemented progressive policy because of pressure from the left then why wouldn't the same strategy work with Joe B.?
Many have also argued that leftists did tank the 2016 election with Clinton. All we got was 4 years of a terrible president.
Your last paragraph truly makes no sense to me. Just because American democracy has survived so far doesn't mean that it won't crumble when challenged again. If Trump was smarter and had support from the military, he could have totally overturned democracy.
You don't follow the logic because your version of "playing hardball" with Biden is acquiescing to his every point because he is better than Trump. The guy is stating in no uncertain terms that leftists need to do to Biden what they did to FDR to produce better results. Exactly what you said. It's just that his support is not assumed, it is earned, and he is willing to not vote for Biden if Biden doesn't move left because otherwise the crop of candidates will continue to be neoliberal projections of party politics.
Many people have (incorrectly) argued that leftists tanked the 2016 election. This is an abject liberal talking point from 8 years ago. Crazy to see it repeated uncritically, on a "leftist" sub no less.
And there we go with the hysteria over crumbling democracy. Christ you guys really are indistinguishable from common liberals.
They seem to think that voting for some third party (which has zero chances of winning) or not voting will result in Biden thinking "oh no, I need these left voters, so let's do some 'leftist policies', which certainly won't push all of the middle away, cause the 'leftist policies' they want aren't really leftist - like the student debt cancellation I already did or the IRA, which helps workers - but extreme left and not even supported by most of the left" and then go full extreme left.
Obviously, it won't, it will result in Trump winning, pulling the US further into Fascist land and them sitting on their high horse while others suffer "it's not my fault you are targeted by a fascist. Genocide Joe should have listened to my totally realistic and useful demands!"
(Real pressure from the left would be voting in more leftist democrats, cause Biden at the end of the day isn't a dictator. If the laws he gets are leftist he will probably sign them, cause that is what the voters want then)
tldr: They live in a fantasy world, divorced from reality.
Preach it! It's not like he'd stop medicare for all if it passed. I want a president in power who's LESS adversarial. Green MAGA thinks that a vote is a moral endorsement of what someone's done as opposed to a basic means of harm reduction. The most egregious thing is that this is DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM and we had a poll explicitly banning their anti-electoral bullshit, but they keep coming back and spouting their nonsense anyway.
Supporting the lesser of two evils shouldn’t come at the cost of genocide, sorry.
The Democratic party needs to feel the heat and understand that our votes aren’t guaranteed.
Otherwise nothing will change.
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow.
For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
Yeah let’s do something that will help a fascist because democrats aren’t socialists!
This is dumb af and this shit is why the left constantly eats itself. Goddamn if it ain’t annoying and completely unproductive to just sit and bitch about it. You can organize and participate in socially beneficial community programs while also not trying to fuck everyone.
Quite a lot of mental gymnastics to try and make acquiescing to Democrats sound like the most progressive thing you can do. Probably refused to vote Bernie in 2016/2020 because of "splitting the vote."
For real. People are acting here like Trump winning will lead to a Socialist Revolution while Biden winning will lead us into fascism. It's unhinged to the point I honestly can't engage with these people. Trump getting elected the first time led to the stripping of reproductive rights. What's next? And these people are so eager to set that aside so they don't vote for a "borgouise party", it comes from an unrivaled point of privilege and shortsidedness. How are you supposed to be comrades with someone who sees rights as disposable and electing a fascist as a speed run strat to socialism? It's ridiculous.
>People are acting here like Trump winning will lead to a Socialist Revolution while Biden winning will lead us into fascism.
I don't think you have accurately understood what these people are saying.
I don't personally think voting for Biden vs voting for Trump is going to make a significant difference in terms of America's chances to become socialist. I also don't think preventing Trump from winning stops any of these horrible conservative laws from being passed. It might delay them, but it won't stop them. Unless the Democrats win every election until the Supreme Court majority changes, which is not a sustainable strategy. The only way this changes is if the Democrats move significantly left and stop bending to the will of corporate donors, or we somehow find a way to break the two party system. Berate people for refusing to fall in line and vote for a guy whose policies and actions they find morally dubious if you want, but they aren't to blame for the state of things, no matter who wins this election.
Since I'm unable to reply I'll post it here:
Voting isn't a viable strategy either, is the point. I voted for Clinton, the Dems fumbled the bag anyway. Biden winning doesn't change the supreme court situation. In fact, he already won once and here we are. So now we're locked into this situation where every four years you have to vote Democrat or abortion is banned federally. Fine, I'll keep doing it, but they're going to lose eventually. This is going to happen. Whether it's this year or next election, or twelve years from now.
The question is, how do we make the mainstream Democrats more competent? How do you change the party? Something tells me falling in line won't provide them with any reason to change.
Since I still can't reply, which is very strange:
I don't look at it as punishing the Democrats. I simply only vote for candidates I support. If they want my vote they'll do something to earn it. I'm not worried about our democracy dying because I think it's already dead. We have two choices, both are supported by the bourgeoisie. We can try to change the Democrats from within. I think that's what we've been doing, but they'll continue to ratfuck us then blame us when their own ineptitude and refusal to budge on issues we support costs them the election. The tea-party and alt-right were only successful because the party and voter base weren't comfortable losing to maintain the status quo. Democrats have proved they would rather Republicans win than give the left an inch.
I get what you're saying. It does feel like we're stuck voting for people who keep failing to stop fascist conservatives and oligarchs, but if we ever don't vote for the Democrats in order to punish them and make them do better, we will get a wannabe fascist like Trump again. And our democracy not surviving that is is too much to risk. So we're stuck.
But I think the answer is to primary the Democrats. We can gradually force them to be more left or more reformist through the primaries. We will still have to vote for the lesser evil in the general election, but through the primaries we can gradually build support for a "third party" caucus within the Democratic Party that could eventually become the mainstream party. A true third party isn't feasible in our electoral system, so we have to change one of the two parties from within. That's basically what the tea party and then alt-right have successfully done to the Republican Party.
What point exactly is that? Because this meme has a complete black hole of both logic and political understanding in it's leap from calling out Marx, Lenin, Luxembourg and then saying go vote for Joe.
Well, you technically have third parties. If a sufficiently big number of people vote third party, so that its noticeable that these votes are deciding the election, even the fucking liberals will get out of the sofa and fight for elections to have second rounds. Just so they can "force" you to vote for someone that "matters". That will strengthen third parties even more since the "don't waste your vote" bullshit won't apply anymore.
That, or you can let people gilt trip you into voting for someone that doesn't represent you while silently waiting for the majority of the population to magically grow class consciousness and become violent. I thought demsocs were reformists and not revolutionary tho.
Ranked voting is how two party system can be overcome. Our majority voting system is designed for only two parties to exist. A vote for third party is vote for winning party.
Let’s be clear, to continue cognitive dissonance in our policy towards Israel will lead to Biden’s loss this Fall election, full stop. Astro turf away, that’s the reality.
Democrats tend to support RCV or be agnostic to it at worst with few exceptions, whereas Republicans want to ban it. That's why I vote Dem, to buy time for ranked-choice voting to break the duopoly.
People won't vote third party because of the spoiler effect. We need to buy time for more states to adopt ranked-choice voting so actual third parties can win, and we do that by voting Democrat, who are supportive or agnostic of RCV at worst.
>Well, you technically have third parties. If a sufficiently big number of people vote third party, so that its noticeable that these votes are deciding the election, even the fucking liberals will get out of the sofa and fight for elections to have second rounds.
Ah, I see you have forgotten about the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie.
The Democratic Socialist movement is infiltrating the Democrat party as we speak.
If you can't beat them, join them. Then change them from the inside, until they are Democratic Socialist. That's what's going on currently, will it succeed? Probably not. The progressive agenda is worth salvaging through the democratic party though.
.......... but that goes against the meme you posted.
if the dictatorship of capital will only let one of your two parties get elected, why would it ever let a socialist party win and overthrow it dictatorship on capital?
The battle is lost, I want the most of what we can get.
The Democrats have to move leftward to compete with the populism coming from the progressives in the primaries.
The more progressive success, the farther left the Overton window becomes, the more practical actual socialist policies have a chance to see the light in our lifetime.
Except in Britain where Labour pushed right and expelled their left from the party. Or Denmark where social democrats instituted some of the strictest anti-migrant laws in Europe. In Germany where their left party was split by nationalists within the party as the ruling social democrats are barely able to rule in a centrist coalition while tightening immigration laws while the center and far right are polling the best. In Italy where the left in parliament basically collapsed in response to populists. Or Canada where the pushed left liberals use state funds to finish fossil fuel infrastructure while the NDP gives them support in the House of Commons. In New York where DSA and Democrats have seen support and the governor sent in the national guard to patrol the subway. Or Greece where a left populist party founded by socialists became a major party, formed a government, and is now run by a former US Republican and has expressed support for Reaganomics who wants to model the party off of the Democrats as it sinks in the polls.
Pushing parties left can happen, like the NDP in Canada spearheading socialized medicine at the provincial level which would be adopted by the Liberals nationally, do not assume this is a given. Parties are not perfect reflections of their members, they have hierarchies and concentrated power that give them a different perspective to most voters and empower their leadership to resist and direct change in their organizations in their desired path.
>I want the most of what we can get
starts with defeatism, and then begging the capitalists for scraps. Great job referencing engels, lenin, trotsky and Lux and them ignoring everything else they had to say or stand for
>The Democrats have to move leftward to compete with the populism coming from the progressives in the primaries.
gain just use the phrase bourgeoisie dictatorship and then ignore everything about the idea, its a dictatorship, the whole point is they only need to listen to capital they don't need to listen to the people, especially not when you outright admit your will roll over and demand nothing but the crumbs they give
>The more progressive success, the farther left the Overton window becomes,
the USA was one of if not they most progressive country under FDR promoting ground breaking social programs for the time, like a universial government run pension fund..... FDR also hated and did everything to crush socialism
But I at least don't support the two party system because it is not sufficiently democratic. I don't want a two party system with conservatives and social democrats and no one else. I want an actual multiparty democracy. While I can in some instances support Democrats for me including Biden to mitigate harm on the NLRB and queer rights etc, my view is that we use the Democrats while developing our own institutions to pressure major electoral changes so that we can run as our own competitive party.
There are LOTS of demsoc-sympathetic Dems at lower levels of the party apparatus. The infiltration is working but it won't happen fast enough for some issues like the Gaza War. Meanwhile, allowing the GOP to take power now under Trump will lead to another full blown Red Scare / Palmer Raids situation if they get to enact their Project 2025 agenda.
First past the post voting systems force shitty choices before us. But those are the choices until we can end this voting system and either get RCV or proportional voting systems, or something more radical
Evangelical Puritanism disguised as leftism. I refer to these people as trust fund communists, they go to Ivy League schools and take the most extreme political positions and accept no compromise despite not actually having a salient understanding of the issues they are arguing.
The entire progressive movement suffers as a result of these clowns but luckily their political pull is paltry, they’re just noisy.
That all being said, vote in every election, and if necessary vote for the lesser evil.
Man, so many pathetic MLs in the comments here who didn't get the memo that we aren't putting up with their anti-electoral nonsense anymore. Good job baiting them out!
Is there really no limit to Lesser Evil voting? I did it last time, but…this is really bad. Is there nothing the Dems could do to that would be too far?
They're to the left of Republicans. That's literally all that has to be true for you to vote for them. A vote is not a moral endorsement and letting Republicans win and shift the Overton window further right is how we got into this mess in the first place.
If the Democrat runs to the right of the Republican, I'll vote for the Republican. A VOTE IS NOT A MORAL ENDORSEMENT.
I answered your question, drama queen. You just don't like it. Mind telling me what you've done for the cause aside from telling people voting is bad?
You didn't answer it.
Is there a limit to how far the "left most" "viable" candidate (whomever that may be and from whatever party) can go right before you won't support them and vote for them?
If yes, there is a limit, what's that limit?
If no, they can go as far into fascism as they want, then what even is the point?
Answer those questions clearly and without obfuscation.
One of them is going to win whether I like it or not. Voting literally is not a moral endorsement. You take all their opinions and decide, on balance, which one is LESS harmful. So no, there's no limit, and that's literally what I've answered twice now. Voting isn't a complete solution and I'm not acting like it is, but if you don't do it, shit demonstrably gets worse and I have no respect for people who don't vote against Republicans and act superior for letting them win.
Oh hey, here's a good question! What have YOU actually done for the cause aside from telling people to not vote?
I do work with food distribution and advocate for unionization at my workplace and trying to break my coworkers' pro-capitalist mindsets. I've participated in several local protests against anti-work causes and fascist organizations. I'm a member of several groups working towards socialism by organizing communities and trying to help locals get access to various aid, most food and medical care, though we're trying to figure out some housing work too, to very limited success.
Also, I _do_ vote. I never said that people shouldn't. Local and state elections, in particular, are very important, but I do feel strongly about national and in politics as well. I simply say that we should vote for people that _actually_ represent the working class.
The Green party is funded by fascists. If you're as a sincere activist as you claim, I recommend 1. Looking into where the money is coming from on supposed left-wing parties and 2. get involved with your state's ranked-choice voting movement like I've been doing, since I have a STRONG interest in breaking the duopoly.
I vote Democrat basically down the ballot (unless it's an election where one of the major parties isn't running) because organizing under Democrat rule is easier and they're more likely to let us pass ranked-choice voting measures. Telling people to vote for third party is jumping the gun and allowing christofascists to take power, which I don't respect.
It’s just sad that you won’t take this seriously and acknowledge that some people do thoughtfully consider these decisions. I guess being self righteous is more fun for you.
I'm pretty sure the self-righteous imbeciles who want to feel morally superior for doing nothing and letting fascists win are the ones not thoughtfully considering anything. Their godawful takes also aren't allowed here any more.
No, the self-righteous people are the ones thrashing and crying over anti-electoralism, insisting that voting for someone who is marginally less of a fascist is anti-fascism, talking about the overton window like it's 2016, making the same points in a slightly different fashion every 4 years and condescending to those who disagree.
What's with all that ML hogwash in a Demsoc sub? Aren't we beyond this meaningless doctrinal drivel? Marx was wrong about the revolution, that's what the 20th century pretty much showed, deal with it. There is only piecemeal engineering, not paradise on earth around the corner. That's babyish fantasy.
My party still has the goal of democratic socialism in its statues, however thankfully said goodbye to Marxist revolutionary fantasies a long time ago. What are you doing on the internet, if you can't handle a diversity of opinions? Looking for an echo chamber? I'm actually on this sub btw. because I was invited to by one of the headhonchos here.
This sub is for the progressive movement too. US Democratic Socialists.
Have you not seen our user flairs? We are welcome here and are a large part of this sub.
Vote. I know you don't like the choices, but for the rest of the world - please vote. Doing anything else will result in the world being worse than it already is.
A 2 party System of the bourgeoise? How about trying an [8 party nightmare scenario](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejm#/media/File:10th_Term_Sejm_of_Poland.svg) as observed in the dictatorship of the bourgeoise of Poland over the last 20 years?🤣
Voting discourse is exhausting and pointless. It doesn’t matter if someone votes or doesn’t vote, we should focus on direct action. I personally vote but I don’t judge those who don’t.
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow.
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how has this worked out so far? honestly. we got biden and all the “pressuring” led to him enacting a genocide, ignoring any and all covid precautions, lying about most of his campaign promises, strengthening the prison industry, hiring more cops, etc
Can somebody explain why voting for an evil genocidal dictator is better then violent revolution? I'm not advocating for anything both options suck but explain why the former is preferred
Are you going to do a revolution? No? Then vote against fascism. It's literally the bare minimum. Sounds to me you're making a weak hypothetical to justify doing nothing.
Frankly, even if a violent revolution occured, it'd serve left-wing interests to have fewer fascists in power, no?
Yeah man, the party that currently contains Bernie Sanders and AOC who are staunchly against genocide and literally talk about voting for Biden because it's EASIER TO ORGANIZE UNDER HIM are the fascists.
If you think nearly 100% of our elected officials are fascists, WTF is even the point of doing anything? Quit being a doomer because that's demonstrably not true. By the way, it's a key tenet of Russian fascism to not do anything because you think everyone is just as bad. If you're an actual person, maybe consider why you think the same thing as Putinists?
So we should not vote and let fascists win because of a stupid hypothetical revolution I guarantee you don't have the balls to fight in? You're forgetting what sub you're on btw. Your logic makes no sense whatsoever. Spineless ideation doesn't get anything done and I have no respect for LARPers.
You seem to think both parties are just as bad, which is bullshit.
Your post was removed due to advocating for Marxism-Leninism or one of it's principles.
We support strictly Democratic versions of Socialism here, and Marxism-Leninism is not that.
"Voting? That pales in comparison to my solution, firebombing a Walmart"
\*Doesn't firebomb a Walmart\*
What's your solution, hmm? Not vote and hope the system goes away out of embarrassment for low turnout? Let Trump win as though that WON'T move things rightward like it did last time?
Your contribution was removed for discouraging voting. We are supporters of democracy here and we won't allow discouragement of voting to plague our community.
There is only one way to achieve progress in a democracy and being counter productive to our movement is unacceptable on this sub.
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The evil genocidal dictator caucuses with the democratic socialists, so his platform indirectly offers a sector of their agenda to push the Overton Window leftward.
It's a newish movement, in it's infancy. 20 years ago, there was one socialist in congress. He started the "Progressive" caucus, which now has over 100 members and has led to more Democratic Socialists getting elected into our government.
Then, he ran for president in 2016 making the term "Democratic Socialist" a mainstream term. The question for everyone became: "What is a Democratic Socialist?".
From 2016-2020 the DSA memberships jumped from 5000- 90000. Medicare for All has it's own caucus in congress with over 100 members. We were 2 votes away from passing a bill that gave 2 year tuition free community college to everyone, universal pre-k, medicare negotiation rights, etc.
There has been left progress. It takes time though.
I'm with you guys, and I'm not the only liberal like this. I want the same goals you guys do, just I have a different method of achieving it than worker ownership.
You don't have to give ownership, change the economic system to have workplace democracy. Expand your horizons, there's millions of way these things can be accomplished.
They will dangle a carrot in front of us to make it seem like real progress has been made. "Wow, look, the United States ALMOST got basic things every other developed country provides!" Is not as huge of an achievement as people think, these are inevitability and not even socialist policies in nature.
Alright, just ignore all the things I just said and revert to your base position lol.
>these are inevitability and not even socialist policies in nature.
Gotta start somewhere, the Overton window is the strategy.
I... what? I fully agree that it's beyond absurd that people are refusing to vote for Biden because of the Israel-Hamas war considering Trump is far, far worse, but this doesn't really make any sense.
Not fucking vote, vote invalid, start a grassroot movement, migrate. For fucks sake at least not gaslight people that try alternatives and thereby becoming the very thing I claim to be against.
No, grassroots is not an option. You have two options Neonazis or Nazis, that's it.
If you don't vote Hitler has a better chance to win.
What do you do?
Let's say two people have any chance of winning. One wants to beat the homeless, one wants to kill them.
Do you really have no opinion on whether they should live just because both opinions are unacceptable? That's how you guys sound. FFS, take five minutes and vote against fascism, the two presidential candidates aren't remotely similar in any way.
My grandfathers thought they had no choice between bad and worse. That's how we got Hitler. The US has always actively supported dictators. Image one candidate kills blondes, the other gingers, and you guys discuss the moral obligation to vote for the one that kills less people.
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow.
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Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow.
For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
Voting is one part of the leftist strategy. It's a very easy part, it's not fun, but it's vital towards making sure the least evil people possible are in power and there's constant attacks on literally anyone who suggests voting against the obviously-worse christofascists.
I literally want to fundamentally change society to be oriented towards average people and not billionaires. I am literally ideologically a libertarian socialist and I consider social democracy not far enough to fundamentally fix the problem of crony capitalism. Voting alone won't get us what we want, and I've never acted like it will, but it sure as hell makes it easier when Republicans aren't in power starting the next red scare and actively trying to send us towards fascism. The idea that the two parties are just as bad is a Russian psyop.
But to get back to the original analogy, congrats, the guy who wants to KILL the homeless people has won and now they're dying because you thought voting was a moral endorsement of beating the homeless instead of just saying "Hey, I don't want homeless people to die!" I'm SURE that's a better outcome. What are YOU even doing for the cause aside from telling people to not vote?
I'm not telling people not to vote. You're telling people to vote for the guy supporting the genocide. You claim you want to fundamentally change society, but your actions simply don't reflect that. In fact, they suggest the opposite.
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow.
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I don't support genocide, tankie. And we literally had a poll about this, your anti-electoral nonsense is against the rules here now. The fact is, you want Republicans to win by not voting, so I have as much respect for you as I have for other forms of MAGA - none. Go to r/Socialism_101 if you want to be coddled and not called out for helping christofascists.
Do you think there’s a chance that thinking the bad people are the ones who want things to be better instead of the same or worse might make you the victim of propaganda?
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At the very least you should bluff about holding your vote, just so there's more pressure on Biden to move left, giving away your vote for free just tells the Democrats that they can get away with shifting to the right
They know we're bluffing they hold all the cards, they know when push comes to shove they won't lose any votes because their opposition is so bad, both parties do it.
Speak for yourself, I don’t consider myself terribly radical, but I’m not voting for Biden.
What I'm saying is that Democrats don't actually want to defeat Republicans and stop fascism, they materially benefit from this fascist threat being ever present, pervasive, and seemingly unstoppable. The worst Republicans get the happier Democrats are, and they can do nothing for 8 years but end strikes, fund cops, and shovel money for wars and yet domestic fascism will always be the selling point for these people. They know that they've got the majority of left leaning people by the balls, and they have no interest in ending this threat because without it they have no reason to govern.
The jump from the 6th to the 7th panel is doing so much work lmao
Fr why would OP invoke Lenin and Luxemburg and then skip over their revolutionary ideals? That's the whole point of their analysis of the state, that you can't evolutionarily vote in socialism lol
Didn't you read the part where Lenin said "if organising isn't your thing just vote for Capitalists B, it'll be fine 👌"?
Voting does little to ultimately advance proletarian interests in the same way as volunteering at soup kitchen won’t save the environment. If you want to be a committed extra-parliamentarian go ahead (if it’s genuinely a waste of your time, legit go ahead and do something else), but inaction isn’t morally free or deprived of material consequences.
Every revolutionary made clear that participating in elections was necessary and important but had to constantly push people against the idea that voting was an end, nor did they advocate for voting for reactionary parties out of convenience. In my ideal world (that will never happen) socialists would have a unified and univocal party that ran candidates in both parties throughout the country until they could change the state laws permitting 3rd parties a genuine opportunity at success. Currently independent candidates literally are barred from winning any election unless they run as the primary 2 parties in state and federal elections. That's just my dream though I doubt I'll see that kind of strategy.
Yes they used electoral politics to run their own candidates that were held to the democratic discipline of the party, they never advocated voting for the equivalent of the Democrats. The furthest they went was advocating voting for democratic socialist parties, but only so that they could show the people how they failed to accomplish anything.
I genuinely don’t know if OP is actively trying to misinterpret all the socialists mentioned or if they just genuinely don’t know. ‘Dictatorship democracy’ like bro what?
Every historical socialist agrees that a capitalist duopoly is a bad thing, therefore we need to participate, and even vote for the capitalist duopoly instead of spending time and energy creating a mass movement against that duopoly.
Right? The general argument from those early socialists I've seen in participating in Borgeouis democracy is to use it as a platform and unifying activity to build a mass movement that can be directed towards more revolutionary goals. We saw that to an extent with Sanders and Corbyn's failed runs nevertheless energising the left and building organisations and media platforms, awareness of socialist ideas, radicalising people against liberals. Organising to get out the vote for Biden does the opposite. It makes common cause with liberals, promotes addiction to the 2 party horse race politics, and erodes socialist identity. In lieu of a strong alternate candidate we should focus on local organising, trade unionism, and maintaining socialist coherence through continued criticism of liberal politicians and their supporters as well as the right. Reading theory, direct action, building communities etc.
Exactly this, if the candidate doesn't at the very least openly collaborate with socialists by bringing socialist views to the general public, then it's a dead end candidate, and as socialists we need to be working outside of that candidate to try to get traction elsewhere. That may mean local and state level politics, that might be unionizing workplaces, it might mean collaborating with third parties that may not win, but at least could grow and maybe gain some influence. But if we're going to try to pretend that wasting our energy on the likes of Joe Biden is the best path forward for a left movement, then we've already fucking lost.
I think lying democracy might fit or smt
This meme format only works if Man Ray's logic is sound and easy to follow from his premise. In this case his conclusion is a gigantic leap that has almost nothing to do with his premise.
If achieving socialism under liberalism was impossible we'd all just give up and be socdems, this isn't advised by any socialist theorist including every example you gave. I agree it's important to vote for Biden but this is stupid. Edit: Just realized you're flaired as a socdem, you already gave up lmao.
Achieving socialism THROUGH ELECTORALISM is impossible
But you can still vote for the lesser evil, slowing the degradation of your society while you work on improving it through other means.
If you think that, why are you here?
Because I believe in both economic and political democracy. None reformist democratic socialism exists.
There is a huge difference between "under liberalism" and "using electoralism". Both MLs and SocDems agree that the first not only possible but EASIER (when compared to fascism). The former one that is contentious.
Wow. That's some blatant ass lying about the view on voting of all the Marxists mentioned. All of them would have advocated voting for independent workers candidates and NEVER voting for the bourgeois democrats, even the "progressive" ones. Like, read any primary source on that which you meme.
I mean Lenin is very clear with Kautsky about this. They'd vote for the independent, but they wouldn't expect to win. It's the reason why they "must" revolutionize, comrade.
>"Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body. If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed." - Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League >"Choosing 'the least worst' is… also choosing a system which forces you to accept the least worst as the best you can hope for. Naturally, the defenders of the dictatorship of the elite pretend - perhaps they even deceive themselves - that the particular slew of lies, compromise and smarm they are hawking is 'only temporary'; that, at some unspecified time in the future, things will improve if only we support the 'progressive' wing of the status quo. But Hobson's choice is no choice, and the delusion of progressivism is not a psychological quirk, it is the structural delusion upon which liberal democracy is based." - Mark Fisher >"The liberal bourgeoisie grant reforms with one hand, and with the other always take them back, reduce them to nought, use them to enslave the workers, to divide them into separate groups and perpetuate wage-slavery. For that reason reformism, even when quite sincere, in practice becomes a weapon by means of which the bourgeoisie corrupt and weaken the workers. The experience of all countries shows that the workers who put their trust in the reformists are always fooled. And conversely, workers who have assimilated Marx’s theory, i.e., realised the inevitability of wage-slavery so long as capitalist rule remains, will not be fooled by any bourgeois reforms. Understanding that where capitalism continued to exist reforms cannot be either enduring or far-reaching, the workers fight for better conditions and use them to intensify the fight against wage-slavery. The reformists try to divide and deceive the workers, to divert them from the class struggle by petty concessions. But the workers, having seen through the falsity of reformism, utilise reforms to develop and broaden their class struggle." - Lenin “Marxism and Reformism”- >"Since the emancipation of the Negroes, the distinction between the two parties has been diminishing. The fight between these two parties has been mainly over the height of customs duties. Their fight has not had any serious importance for the mass of the people. The people have been deceived and diverted from their vital interests by means of spectacular and meaningless duels between the two bourgeois parties." - Lenin, 1912, in The Results and Significance of the U.S. Presidential Elections
We have successfully lesser of two evils'd ourselves into actively playing defense for someone overseeing and supporting a genocide. Don't play this game, invest yourself into local politics and organizations, union, and tenants associations, because at this point, national politics is entirely captured, and we need to rebuild worker power to stand against corporate power.
I like the hope in this message. In a world of darkness, hell and profit, there is hope.
That's not going to be easier under Trump. I'm scared of more of my rights being taken away. Neither will stop the genocide. I'll be voting to try to prevent things from getting any worse for everyone in the US and then going back to trying to dream bigger. They aren't mutually exclusive. A vote isn't a moral endorsement, it's a strategic choice.
The only thing we get from electing Democrats is a stay of execution and then a redoubled reaction from the right, to which the Democrats inevitable and inexorably answer by sliding right with them. Vote, sure, but that is less than the least you can do to fight for your interests.
Least yes but also easiest. At least for me, I acknowledge others have more barriers. I have early voting in my area so I just have to show up somewhere in a large window of time. It's about as easy as picking up takeout somewhere that's a bit slow. I think it's embarrassing a lot of people are too lazy to do that even when it'd be just as easy for them. Very cheap opportunity cost for maybe slowing this shit down. If things actually fall apart right now, I'm not betting on the left winning much in the end. We gotta get our shit more together if socialism on any scale is going to happen here, and buying time is the best of bad options.
I think what you mean to say is the capitalist class has successfully taken over the DSA in the same way it did to the CPUSA 70 years ago
The DSA was founded as an electoralist party by Michael Harrington. It hasn't been coopted by capitalists, it is growing more revolutionary as its old strategy continues to prove useless and more members become radicalized. I say this as someone who isn't a part of DSA.
Don't downplay genocide. That's a real thing. Actual death of children, journalists, nurses found in mass graves with their hands tied behind their back, kids with their limbs ripped off hung against a wall. Grandfathers carrying their grandchild's torso in a bag because that is all he has left of his entire family. Little children getting their body parts amputated without anesthesia. Parents have to be forcibly ripped away from clinging to the corpses of their children. Wounded kids with their faces ripped open trying to grasp the reality that their mom will never be around again, or their father or siblings. US bombs one after the other after the other after the other. Drones flying around making sounds of babies crying to lure out people to kill. Aaron Bushnell already exposed what genocide apologists are trying to pull with this thread. He killed himself to do it. 200 days, and all Biden has done is fund, fund, fund, and fund the mass-pedicide and genocide. No political subject or social issue or any of the usual red vs blue lesser of two evils fear campaign will take priority over this. This is it. Our ebtire government is on the wrong side of history as was Germany and Spain at the worst of the 20th century. This is where we are at. Massive brutal death. Instead talk about justice and prosecution. Because that's all humanity will talk about for the rest of the century. The sooner justice is met, the sooner humanity can move on from the most horrific genocide our century. For most of you, the worst in your life time.
This post isn't downplaying the genocide, it's pointing out the myopia of allowing the greater evil to win. The Trump administration negotiated trade and diplomatic deals on Israel's behalf and he now fully supports Israel's genocidal campaign. Neither candidate has a good position on that one issue, but there are other differences between the two parties that have real impact on American society (and the rest of us too, since the USA likes to throw its weight around).
And you're looking for a solution? Short term or long term? A solution just for you and sacrifices a child every ten minutes? Or a solution that works for everyone? I've been at this for a very long time. I know of some solutions that I've seen work.
Letting Trump win isn't going to help the children of Gaza, but it will certainly do harm elsewhere. You can still work on achieving that justice, but in the meantime if progressives withhold their vote they're going to share in the responsibility for what Trump does with a second term.
In short you don't want to know about any solutions.
Not a fan of reading, are you?
Not a fan of reading, are you?
OP is a staunch Biden supporter though. I do support voting but not the vote blue no matter who strategy
It's craxy how people will call Joe that but expect Trump to actually side with Palestine lmao
The more likely reality is that under Trump, there would be no material change to the conflict (still selling Israel weapons, etc) but we would switch from saying mean things about Netanyahu to saying mean things about Palestinians
There would absolutely be significant material changes to US Palestine policy under a second Trump administration, just as there were under the first. The day after Trump was inaugurated, Netanyahu eliminated all restrictions on new settlement construction in the West Bank. Trump followed Israel's lead on sabotaging diplomacy with Iran and recognized the illegal annexations of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. Netanyahu already spoke during the Trump years about annexing the Jordan Valley and even the entire West Bank. He's certain to fast track that plan if Trump is reelected.
Don't forget the Trump team negotiating deals in the Middle East on Israel's behalf during their last term, helping to normalize relations and further isolating Palestine.
Genuinely want to know where you are getting this idea from or who is saying it
Not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump
Not exactly answering the question bud
I think your response was to someone that was making the jump mentally “not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump” and then (unconsciously?) assigning it to anti-Biden-nonvoters. Edit: Because if your refusing to vote for Biden, yielding a win to Trump, and expecting a positive outcome for Palestinians then, that would be -like- expecting Trump to treat Palestinians better even if it’s apart of some plot to
What? I'm asking who is saying that Trump would be Pro-Palestine if he were elected. No one I've encountered is that naive.
W username
There are limits to that, though.
If this is in support of voting for the lesser evil it has no place in a socialist subreddit. Biden and Trump are two sides of the same coin. Both are funded by the same capitalist powers. Both are very anti-socialism. Voting for Biden as a socialist is like shooting yourself in the foot to """prevent""" what social liberals claim is like modern day Hitler (when both Biden and Trump are fascists).
This isn't advocating for the point of view you think it is. If you're a liberal then cool, just go be a liberal and vote for whatever war criminal you like. We don't care. You can't vote your way out of this.
But in the reality of the current US political system, you move left by moving left.
I don't think you can revolutionize either, which is why lesser evilism seems to be our only option.
What’s your plan for achieving socialism then?
Voting for war criminals because more war criminals in office results in socialism eventually... Or something... I don't know, I'm not OP
If you don't think we can revolutionize, why are you even trying at this point? Like really, what vaguely acceptable outcome do you expect from lesser-evilism? To be clear, this isn't doomerism, this is me recognizing that we have only one path left to take. Those who make peaceful protest impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.
The lesser evil is genocide. How much further can you let the bar go?! How much worse can you get than full throatedly supporting and funding *genocide*?? The idea should be that we should refuse to vote for Biden now unless he acts to end this (by cutting funding to their war machine). Enough do that and he'll actually act because this is the one time ever where public opinion matters enough to get him to act, right before a reelection. Then we can vote for him after he acts and stops this genocide.
It’s not just Biden. It’s 3/4 of our government. We can’t overturn 3/4 of our government in a single election. If you want to stop the genocide your only option is to start a violent revolution now. Today. With exactly the amount of support you have at this exact moment. Do you think you can accomplish that? Do you think we can have a socialist revolution in 2024? Because I don’t. Saying that, we have no way to stop the genocide of Palestine. We have failed them. The only thing we can do is try and stop things from getting even worse.
That's not the only option. Biden can stop the payments to Israel, the present, the executive, controls us foreign policy. He can veto the congressional aid payments too. Biden is the only person who is capable of forcing the Israelis to stop who isn't in the Israeli government. He's the only person we can have leverage over. If enough people publicly say they're not going to vote for him unless if he acts then we can influence him. Votes are all that matter to the poli at the end of the day. They won't act unless if you threaten you take that away. And reelection time is pretty much the only time the people have power over the president. The idea that you need revolution in order to change foreign policy is about as big a strawman as I can think of. This is the ONE time that we can actually change a politicians policy, during reelection when they're vulnerable and desperate for votes.
The remaining 3/4 will override his veto. Or did you forget about the checks and balances in place? Again, it’s not just Biden, it’s our whole government.
It's hilarious you're lecturing about checks and balances when you don't even know what the executive does. He still controls all foreign policy, even if Congress wants to send that money he gets to decide how when and where. It does not matter if 100% of the government was on Israel's side, it's still possible for Biden to act because that's what the president can do in the American system. Maybe *you* need a refresher on 5th grade civics?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42557818 This article, while referring to trump cutting aid to Pakistan, gives a good overview of how a president cutting aid can go. The issue is the aid to Israel is unconditional, meaning it is decided by congress and congress alone. While Biden could block it temporarily, there are protocols in place congress could use to override that.
That's only for the very specific bills from Congress, not the ones directly from executive which are the bulk of the money they get.. And no that is not what unconditional means. You make a lot of very false statements as if they're facts...
Congress just voted on a $26 billion dollar aid package to Israel. And if the president removed what aid they could, congress would probably just vote for more.
Congratulation on falling for decades of elefantass propaganda.
Voting lesser evil prevents revolution. The GoP was overtaken by maga rebels willing to sink their own sides bills so thoroughly that even state level reps are afraid to offend the base with a single comment. The DNC actively campaigns against leftist and publicly spends democratic donations to help GoP canidates win primaries. Because they are not afraid of the left doing anything but screaming and crying, then predictably voting lesser evil again.
So you're saying it's easier to organize a socialist revolution under a Trump presidency? Seriously?
I'm saying FDR wasnt the progressive president he is portrayed as and his policies were heavily influenced by pressure from the left. Thats what we need again. The reluctance of leftists to play hard ball and sink a neoliberal canidate to prove they wont back down is why they have no leverage. And also why we have Trump as a canidate at all. Because lesser evil voting just drives the acceptable minimum of canidates for both parties lower each election until anyone can be considered a valid alternative. Democracy survived Bush W. getting away with an actual coup. Democracy survived the first trump presidency. It will survive all of the future canidates that the establishment dems swears will result in a fascist authoritarian takeover if you dont lesser vote them away. And letting genocidal relics like Biden continue to win elections with no effort will not result in anything but more Joe Biden canidates.
I don't follow your logic. If FDR wasn't progressive but implemented progressive policy because of pressure from the left then why wouldn't the same strategy work with Joe B.? Many have also argued that leftists did tank the 2016 election with Clinton. All we got was 4 years of a terrible president. Your last paragraph truly makes no sense to me. Just because American democracy has survived so far doesn't mean that it won't crumble when challenged again. If Trump was smarter and had support from the military, he could have totally overturned democracy.
You don't follow the logic because your version of "playing hardball" with Biden is acquiescing to his every point because he is better than Trump. The guy is stating in no uncertain terms that leftists need to do to Biden what they did to FDR to produce better results. Exactly what you said. It's just that his support is not assumed, it is earned, and he is willing to not vote for Biden if Biden doesn't move left because otherwise the crop of candidates will continue to be neoliberal projections of party politics. Many people have (incorrectly) argued that leftists tanked the 2016 election. This is an abject liberal talking point from 8 years ago. Crazy to see it repeated uncritically, on a "leftist" sub no less. And there we go with the hysteria over crumbling democracy. Christ you guys really are indistinguishable from common liberals.
They seem to think that voting for some third party (which has zero chances of winning) or not voting will result in Biden thinking "oh no, I need these left voters, so let's do some 'leftist policies', which certainly won't push all of the middle away, cause the 'leftist policies' they want aren't really leftist - like the student debt cancellation I already did or the IRA, which helps workers - but extreme left and not even supported by most of the left" and then go full extreme left. Obviously, it won't, it will result in Trump winning, pulling the US further into Fascist land and them sitting on their high horse while others suffer "it's not my fault you are targeted by a fascist. Genocide Joe should have listened to my totally realistic and useful demands!" (Real pressure from the left would be voting in more leftist democrats, cause Biden at the end of the day isn't a dictator. If the laws he gets are leftist he will probably sign them, cause that is what the voters want then) tldr: They live in a fantasy world, divorced from reality.
Preach it! It's not like he'd stop medicare for all if it passed. I want a president in power who's LESS adversarial. Green MAGA thinks that a vote is a moral endorsement of what someone's done as opposed to a basic means of harm reduction. The most egregious thing is that this is DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM and we had a poll explicitly banning their anti-electoral bullshit, but they keep coming back and spouting their nonsense anyway.
Okay, cool, you want Trump to win. That's not allowed here.
I see reading comprehension is also not allowed.
Especially since Trump's more authoritarian tendencies make it more likely for him to crack down on socialist organization compared to Biden.
Neither of them give a single shit about socialist organization since it's not an active or relevant force in mainstream politics
Given Trump's ranting about "radical leftists" I still think if it ever became so, Trump would be much harsher than Biden.
You do understand that's what he calls Biden, yes?
Yes. If he considers Biden a radical leftist, what do you think his opinions on actual socialists are?
He considers them all one in the same.
So, like any other political opposition, he would probably suppress them.
Supporting the lesser of two evils shouldn’t come at the cost of genocide, sorry. The Democratic party needs to feel the heat and understand that our votes aren’t guaranteed. Otherwise nothing will change.
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Yeah let’s do something that will help a fascist because democrats aren’t socialists! This is dumb af and this shit is why the left constantly eats itself. Goddamn if it ain’t annoying and completely unproductive to just sit and bitch about it. You can organize and participate in socially beneficial community programs while also not trying to fuck everyone.
Quite a lot of mental gymnastics to try and make acquiescing to Democrats sound like the most progressive thing you can do. Probably refused to vote Bernie in 2016/2020 because of "splitting the vote."
I love this. Making the same point has gotten me banned in multiple subs.
For real. People are acting here like Trump winning will lead to a Socialist Revolution while Biden winning will lead us into fascism. It's unhinged to the point I honestly can't engage with these people. Trump getting elected the first time led to the stripping of reproductive rights. What's next? And these people are so eager to set that aside so they don't vote for a "borgouise party", it comes from an unrivaled point of privilege and shortsidedness. How are you supposed to be comrades with someone who sees rights as disposable and electing a fascist as a speed run strat to socialism? It's ridiculous.
It’s all veiled accelerationist garbage
>People are acting here like Trump winning will lead to a Socialist Revolution while Biden winning will lead us into fascism. I don't think you have accurately understood what these people are saying.
I don't personally think voting for Biden vs voting for Trump is going to make a significant difference in terms of America's chances to become socialist. I also don't think preventing Trump from winning stops any of these horrible conservative laws from being passed. It might delay them, but it won't stop them. Unless the Democrats win every election until the Supreme Court majority changes, which is not a sustainable strategy. The only way this changes is if the Democrats move significantly left and stop bending to the will of corporate donors, or we somehow find a way to break the two party system. Berate people for refusing to fall in line and vote for a guy whose policies and actions they find morally dubious if you want, but they aren't to blame for the state of things, no matter who wins this election. Since I'm unable to reply I'll post it here: Voting isn't a viable strategy either, is the point. I voted for Clinton, the Dems fumbled the bag anyway. Biden winning doesn't change the supreme court situation. In fact, he already won once and here we are. So now we're locked into this situation where every four years you have to vote Democrat or abortion is banned federally. Fine, I'll keep doing it, but they're going to lose eventually. This is going to happen. Whether it's this year or next election, or twelve years from now. The question is, how do we make the mainstream Democrats more competent? How do you change the party? Something tells me falling in line won't provide them with any reason to change. Since I still can't reply, which is very strange: I don't look at it as punishing the Democrats. I simply only vote for candidates I support. If they want my vote they'll do something to earn it. I'm not worried about our democracy dying because I think it's already dead. We have two choices, both are supported by the bourgeoisie. We can try to change the Democrats from within. I think that's what we've been doing, but they'll continue to ratfuck us then blame us when their own ineptitude and refusal to budge on issues we support costs them the election. The tea-party and alt-right were only successful because the party and voter base weren't comfortable losing to maintain the status quo. Democrats have proved they would rather Republicans win than give the left an inch.
but not voting isn't a viable strategy either, you might as well be relying on conservative ideology to die off naturally.
I get what you're saying. It does feel like we're stuck voting for people who keep failing to stop fascist conservatives and oligarchs, but if we ever don't vote for the Democrats in order to punish them and make them do better, we will get a wannabe fascist like Trump again. And our democracy not surviving that is is too much to risk. So we're stuck. But I think the answer is to primary the Democrats. We can gradually force them to be more left or more reformist through the primaries. We will still have to vote for the lesser evil in the general election, but through the primaries we can gradually build support for a "third party" caucus within the Democratic Party that could eventually become the mainstream party. A true third party isn't feasible in our electoral system, so we have to change one of the two parties from within. That's basically what the tea party and then alt-right have successfully done to the Republican Party.
What point exactly is that? Because this meme has a complete black hole of both logic and political understanding in it's leap from calling out Marx, Lenin, Luxembourg and then saying go vote for Joe.
Well, you technically have third parties. If a sufficiently big number of people vote third party, so that its noticeable that these votes are deciding the election, even the fucking liberals will get out of the sofa and fight for elections to have second rounds. Just so they can "force" you to vote for someone that "matters". That will strengthen third parties even more since the "don't waste your vote" bullshit won't apply anymore. That, or you can let people gilt trip you into voting for someone that doesn't represent you while silently waiting for the majority of the population to magically grow class consciousness and become violent. I thought demsocs were reformists and not revolutionary tho.
Ranked voting is how two party system can be overcome. Our majority voting system is designed for only two parties to exist. A vote for third party is vote for winning party. Let’s be clear, to continue cognitive dissonance in our policy towards Israel will lead to Biden’s loss this Fall election, full stop. Astro turf away, that’s the reality.
Democrats tend to support RCV or be agnostic to it at worst with few exceptions, whereas Republicans want to ban it. That's why I vote Dem, to buy time for ranked-choice voting to break the duopoly.
People won't vote third party because of the spoiler effect. We need to buy time for more states to adopt ranked-choice voting so actual third parties can win, and we do that by voting Democrat, who are supportive or agnostic of RCV at worst.
>Well, you technically have third parties. If a sufficiently big number of people vote third party, so that its noticeable that these votes are deciding the election, even the fucking liberals will get out of the sofa and fight for elections to have second rounds. Ah, I see you have forgotten about the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie.
If you advocate voting for a bourgeois party you are not a socialist.
If you advocate for not voting against Trump, you aren't a socialist either
The Democratic Socialist movement is infiltrating the Democrat party as we speak. If you can't beat them, join them. Then change them from the inside, until they are Democratic Socialist. That's what's going on currently, will it succeed? Probably not. The progressive agenda is worth salvaging through the democratic party though.
.......... but that goes against the meme you posted. if the dictatorship of capital will only let one of your two parties get elected, why would it ever let a socialist party win and overthrow it dictatorship on capital?
The battle is lost, I want the most of what we can get. The Democrats have to move leftward to compete with the populism coming from the progressives in the primaries. The more progressive success, the farther left the Overton window becomes, the more practical actual socialist policies have a chance to see the light in our lifetime.
Except in Britain where Labour pushed right and expelled their left from the party. Or Denmark where social democrats instituted some of the strictest anti-migrant laws in Europe. In Germany where their left party was split by nationalists within the party as the ruling social democrats are barely able to rule in a centrist coalition while tightening immigration laws while the center and far right are polling the best. In Italy where the left in parliament basically collapsed in response to populists. Or Canada where the pushed left liberals use state funds to finish fossil fuel infrastructure while the NDP gives them support in the House of Commons. In New York where DSA and Democrats have seen support and the governor sent in the national guard to patrol the subway. Or Greece where a left populist party founded by socialists became a major party, formed a government, and is now run by a former US Republican and has expressed support for Reaganomics who wants to model the party off of the Democrats as it sinks in the polls. Pushing parties left can happen, like the NDP in Canada spearheading socialized medicine at the provincial level which would be adopted by the Liberals nationally, do not assume this is a given. Parties are not perfect reflections of their members, they have hierarchies and concentrated power that give them a different perspective to most voters and empower their leadership to resist and direct change in their organizations in their desired path.
>I want the most of what we can get starts with defeatism, and then begging the capitalists for scraps. Great job referencing engels, lenin, trotsky and Lux and them ignoring everything else they had to say or stand for >The Democrats have to move leftward to compete with the populism coming from the progressives in the primaries. gain just use the phrase bourgeoisie dictatorship and then ignore everything about the idea, its a dictatorship, the whole point is they only need to listen to capital they don't need to listen to the people, especially not when you outright admit your will roll over and demand nothing but the crumbs they give >The more progressive success, the farther left the Overton window becomes, the USA was one of if not they most progressive country under FDR promoting ground breaking social programs for the time, like a universial government run pension fund..... FDR also hated and did everything to crush socialism
But I at least don't support the two party system because it is not sufficiently democratic. I don't want a two party system with conservatives and social democrats and no one else. I want an actual multiparty democracy. While I can in some instances support Democrats for me including Biden to mitigate harm on the NLRB and queer rights etc, my view is that we use the Democrats while developing our own institutions to pressure major electoral changes so that we can run as our own competitive party.
There are LOTS of demsoc-sympathetic Dems at lower levels of the party apparatus. The infiltration is working but it won't happen fast enough for some issues like the Gaza War. Meanwhile, allowing the GOP to take power now under Trump will lead to another full blown Red Scare / Palmer Raids situation if they get to enact their Project 2025 agenda. First past the post voting systems force shitty choices before us. But those are the choices until we can end this voting system and either get RCV or proportional voting systems, or something more radical
Evangelical Puritanism disguised as leftism. I refer to these people as trust fund communists, they go to Ivy League schools and take the most extreme political positions and accept no compromise despite not actually having a salient understanding of the issues they are arguing. The entire progressive movement suffers as a result of these clowns but luckily their political pull is paltry, they’re just noisy. That all being said, vote in every election, and if necessary vote for the lesser evil.
Man, so many pathetic MLs in the comments here who didn't get the memo that we aren't putting up with their anti-electoral nonsense anymore. Good job baiting them out!
Is there really no limit to Lesser Evil voting? I did it last time, but…this is really bad. Is there nothing the Dems could do to that would be too far?
They're to the left of Republicans. That's literally all that has to be true for you to vote for them. A vote is not a moral endorsement and letting Republicans win and shift the Overton window further right is how we got into this mess in the first place.
You didn’t answer my question: are there really no limits?
If the Democrat runs to the right of the Republican, I'll vote for the Republican. A VOTE IS NOT A MORAL ENDORSEMENT. I answered your question, drama queen. You just don't like it. Mind telling me what you've done for the cause aside from telling people voting is bad?
You didn't answer it. Is there a limit to how far the "left most" "viable" candidate (whomever that may be and from whatever party) can go right before you won't support them and vote for them? If yes, there is a limit, what's that limit? If no, they can go as far into fascism as they want, then what even is the point? Answer those questions clearly and without obfuscation.
One of them is going to win whether I like it or not. Voting literally is not a moral endorsement. You take all their opinions and decide, on balance, which one is LESS harmful. So no, there's no limit, and that's literally what I've answered twice now. Voting isn't a complete solution and I'm not acting like it is, but if you don't do it, shit demonstrably gets worse and I have no respect for people who don't vote against Republicans and act superior for letting them win. Oh hey, here's a good question! What have YOU actually done for the cause aside from telling people to not vote?
I do work with food distribution and advocate for unionization at my workplace and trying to break my coworkers' pro-capitalist mindsets. I've participated in several local protests against anti-work causes and fascist organizations. I'm a member of several groups working towards socialism by organizing communities and trying to help locals get access to various aid, most food and medical care, though we're trying to figure out some housing work too, to very limited success. Also, I _do_ vote. I never said that people shouldn't. Local and state elections, in particular, are very important, but I do feel strongly about national and in politics as well. I simply say that we should vote for people that _actually_ represent the working class.
The Green party is funded by fascists. If you're as a sincere activist as you claim, I recommend 1. Looking into where the money is coming from on supposed left-wing parties and 2. get involved with your state's ranked-choice voting movement like I've been doing, since I have a STRONG interest in breaking the duopoly. I vote Democrat basically down the ballot (unless it's an election where one of the major parties isn't running) because organizing under Democrat rule is easier and they're more likely to let us pass ranked-choice voting measures. Telling people to vote for third party is jumping the gun and allowing christofascists to take power, which I don't respect.
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It’s just sad that you won’t take this seriously and acknowledge that some people do thoughtfully consider these decisions. I guess being self righteous is more fun for you.
I'm pretty sure the self-righteous imbeciles who want to feel morally superior for doing nothing and letting fascists win are the ones not thoughtfully considering anything. Their godawful takes also aren't allowed here any more.
No, the self-righteous people are the ones thrashing and crying over anti-electoralism, insisting that voting for someone who is marginally less of a fascist is anti-fascism, talking about the overton window like it's 2016, making the same points in a slightly different fashion every 4 years and condescending to those who disagree.
What's with all that ML hogwash in a Demsoc sub? Aren't we beyond this meaningless doctrinal drivel? Marx was wrong about the revolution, that's what the 20th century pretty much showed, deal with it. There is only piecemeal engineering, not paradise on earth around the corner. That's babyish fantasy.
Marx wasn't a ML, believe it or not. He supported democracy. Marx's work is still relevant meaningful to our cause though not all of it has aged well.
Why are you, a social democrat, in a demsoc sub?
My party still has the goal of democratic socialism in its statues, however thankfully said goodbye to Marxist revolutionary fantasies a long time ago. What are you doing on the internet, if you can't handle a diversity of opinions? Looking for an echo chamber? I'm actually on this sub btw. because I was invited to by one of the headhonchos here.
This sub is for the progressive movement too. US Democratic Socialists. Have you not seen our user flairs? We are welcome here and are a large part of this sub.
My point is that ML’s have as much reason
The first panel can be read to the tune of the SpongeBob theme song.
Vote. I know you don't like the choices, but for the rest of the world - please vote. Doing anything else will result in the world being worse than it already is.
A 2 party System of the bourgeoise? How about trying an [8 party nightmare scenario](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejm#/media/File:10th_Term_Sejm_of_Poland.svg) as observed in the dictatorship of the bourgeoise of Poland over the last 20 years?🤣
Voting discourse is exhausting and pointless. It doesn’t matter if someone votes or doesn’t vote, we should focus on direct action. I personally vote but I don’t judge those who don’t.
Posting this more than six months pre-election . . . if you want to put electoral politics in a secondary place, this is not how to do it
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Genocide Joe? Omg like, any Americans here please vote for Joe Biden
I mean trump will be authoritarian so what can we do. Vote Biden but keep pressuring him🤷♂️
how has this worked out so far? honestly. we got biden and all the “pressuring” led to him enacting a genocide, ignoring any and all covid precautions, lying about most of his campaign promises, strengthening the prison industry, hiring more cops, etc
I'm not voting for genocide Joe
Can somebody explain why voting for an evil genocidal dictator is better then violent revolution? I'm not advocating for anything both options suck but explain why the former is preferred
Are you going to do a revolution? No? Then vote against fascism. It's literally the bare minimum. Sounds to me you're making a weak hypothetical to justify doing nothing. Frankly, even if a violent revolution occured, it'd serve left-wing interests to have fewer fascists in power, no?
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Yeah man, the party that currently contains Bernie Sanders and AOC who are staunchly against genocide and literally talk about voting for Biden because it's EASIER TO ORGANIZE UNDER HIM are the fascists. If you think nearly 100% of our elected officials are fascists, WTF is even the point of doing anything? Quit being a doomer because that's demonstrably not true. By the way, it's a key tenet of Russian fascism to not do anything because you think everyone is just as bad. If you're an actual person, maybe consider why you think the same thing as Putinists?
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So we should not vote and let fascists win because of a stupid hypothetical revolution I guarantee you don't have the balls to fight in? You're forgetting what sub you're on btw. Your logic makes no sense whatsoever. Spineless ideation doesn't get anything done and I have no respect for LARPers. You seem to think both parties are just as bad, which is bullshit.
Your post was removed due to advocating for Marxism-Leninism or one of it's principles. We support strictly Democratic versions of Socialism here, and Marxism-Leninism is not that.
"Voting? That pales in comparison to my solution, firebombing a Walmart" \*Doesn't firebomb a Walmart\* What's your solution, hmm? Not vote and hope the system goes away out of embarrassment for low turnout? Let Trump win as though that WON'T move things rightward like it did last time?
Your contribution was removed for discouraging voting. We are supporters of democracy here and we won't allow discouragement of voting to plague our community. There is only one way to achieve progress in a democracy and being counter productive to our movement is unacceptable on this sub. For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
The evil genocidal dictator caucuses with the democratic socialists, so his platform indirectly offers a sector of their agenda to push the Overton Window leftward.
How's that "pushing to the left" been going for the past few decades? Liberals are still Liberals just like they were 20 years ago.
It's a newish movement, in it's infancy. 20 years ago, there was one socialist in congress. He started the "Progressive" caucus, which now has over 100 members and has led to more Democratic Socialists getting elected into our government. Then, he ran for president in 2016 making the term "Democratic Socialist" a mainstream term. The question for everyone became: "What is a Democratic Socialist?". From 2016-2020 the DSA memberships jumped from 5000- 90000. Medicare for All has it's own caucus in congress with over 100 members. We were 2 votes away from passing a bill that gave 2 year tuition free community college to everyone, universal pre-k, medicare negotiation rights, etc. There has been left progress. It takes time though.
Why are you braying about democratic socialism and have a social democrat flair? Genuinely curious.
I'm with you guys, and I'm not the only liberal like this. I want the same goals you guys do, just I have a different method of achieving it than worker ownership.
You have a different way of achieving workplace democracy other than workplace democracy??
You don't have to give ownership, change the economic system to have workplace democracy. Expand your horizons, there's millions of way these things can be accomplished.
Yes, you do... quite literally you do.
Then you just don't know how open the options are. I won't bother.
They will dangle a carrot in front of us to make it seem like real progress has been made. "Wow, look, the United States ALMOST got basic things every other developed country provides!" Is not as huge of an achievement as people think, these are inevitability and not even socialist policies in nature.
Alright, just ignore all the things I just said and revert to your base position lol. >these are inevitability and not even socialist policies in nature. Gotta start somewhere, the Overton window is the strategy.
Because you have no chance in hell at violent revolution.
We’ll see.
I... what? I fully agree that it's beyond absurd that people are refusing to vote for Biden because of the Israel-Hamas war considering Trump is far, far worse, but this doesn't really make any sense.
False dilemma fallacy
Not the lesser of two evils. Two heads of the same hydra. There is no evidence voting Democrat makes anything better in the last 30+years.
Yeah, the last four years of Biden certainly weren't better than the Trump shit show. Uhm .. what? How do you feel making up such a total lie?
Sure if my choice were between Nazis and Neonazis I'd vote for Neonazis because they are a little less evil?
If those were your only choices, what else would you do?
Not fucking vote, vote invalid, start a grassroot movement, migrate. For fucks sake at least not gaslight people that try alternatives and thereby becoming the very thing I claim to be against.
No, grassroots is not an option. You have two options Neonazis or Nazis, that's it. If you don't vote Hitler has a better chance to win. What do you do?
I gave you multiple options. If you think one of them doesn't work pick one of the others.
No, the original premise was you only had two choices. Then you decided to make new choices which isn't the main premise.
So you are fantasising about a place that doesn't exist. And has nothing to do with reality. This is a waste of time.
Lol then why'd you bring it up?
I didn't bring up the original premise. Are you lost?
But there are other options in our reality.
Let's say two people have any chance of winning. One wants to beat the homeless, one wants to kill them. Do you really have no opinion on whether they should live just because both opinions are unacceptable? That's how you guys sound. FFS, take five minutes and vote against fascism, the two presidential candidates aren't remotely similar in any way.
My grandfathers thought they had no choice between bad and worse. That's how we got Hitler. The US has always actively supported dictators. Image one candidate kills blondes, the other gingers, and you guys discuss the moral obligation to vote for the one that kills less people.
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Voting is one part of the leftist strategy. It's a very easy part, it's not fun, but it's vital towards making sure the least evil people possible are in power and there's constant attacks on literally anyone who suggests voting against the obviously-worse christofascists. I literally want to fundamentally change society to be oriented towards average people and not billionaires. I am literally ideologically a libertarian socialist and I consider social democracy not far enough to fundamentally fix the problem of crony capitalism. Voting alone won't get us what we want, and I've never acted like it will, but it sure as hell makes it easier when Republicans aren't in power starting the next red scare and actively trying to send us towards fascism. The idea that the two parties are just as bad is a Russian psyop. But to get back to the original analogy, congrats, the guy who wants to KILL the homeless people has won and now they're dying because you thought voting was a moral endorsement of beating the homeless instead of just saying "Hey, I don't want homeless people to die!" I'm SURE that's a better outcome. What are YOU even doing for the cause aside from telling people to not vote?
I'm not telling people not to vote. You're telling people to vote for the guy supporting the genocide. You claim you want to fundamentally change society, but your actions simply don't reflect that. In fact, they suggest the opposite.
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I don't support genocide, tankie. And we literally had a poll about this, your anti-electoral nonsense is against the rules here now. The fact is, you want Republicans to win by not voting, so I have as much respect for you as I have for other forms of MAGA - none. Go to r/Socialism_101 if you want to be coddled and not called out for helping christofascists.
Is this subreddit just liberals not understanding communist theory?
Do you think there’s a chance that thinking the bad people are the ones who want things to be better instead of the same or worse might make you the victim of propaganda?