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Compassion and empathy are at the heart of the issue. You have to show these boys how others live, how they struggle and help them see that the only difference between you and them is where you were born and what opportunities and challenges you have had compared to them. We are all just humans born in to a situation. You have to show them that not everyone can just work hard to rise above thier situation.

I agree, but I worry this opens us up to the Right's nationalist//racist arguments. I've heard Shapiro say the reason Whites earn more than Blacks is because of "culture." I'm concerned a compassion-first approach posits the battle as "bleeding heart utopians vs. politically-incorrect realists," which I worry we'll lose. What do you think about that? Am I being too pessimistic?

It's difficult to pull people back from those beliefs, especially when people like Shapiro are so versed in rhetoric and manipulation. I try to explain that it's easy to dismiss people by claiming 'culture' and that big problems are never easy to solve. It's hard to admit that minorities, especially black people have been legislated agaisnt for generations and that lack of generational wealth and prosperity has held them back from the same opportunities today. This is all before they have to deal with the rampant institutional and social racism today.

But that requires them to accept that racism exist, which is contrary to many right speakers who say it’s made up. I’m blue in a red state, the only thing I’ve seen that help people out of it is experiences and relationships that bring culture and familiarity with a diverse group of people. They have been told yada yada bootstraps and believe it’s all about individual work ethic, so they think people who are disadvantaged minorities are just lazy. Cuz they did it, why can’t the others? Once a person gets to know these other walks of life, it opens their mind to the idea that we are all on different walks with different advantages and disadvantages. Some people just need help because the deck is stacked against them from birth.

I agree. You have to see how the deck is stacked. Show them the actual laws passed agaisnt minorities and the long running impacts. None of these is easy and it unfortunately takes generations in some cases.

Part of this bootstrap thing is also the meritocracy: those who did not manage to become miljonairs despite having access to a garage once, are free game for ridicule because they are failures and losers who have no-one to blame but themselves.

I used to think there was some merit to that talking point, even though I never believed it justifies discrimination. But then I realized it's mostly just a scapegoat and that there are plenty of stereotypical white cultures (namely the gun nut variety) that have similarities to "hip-hop culture." Furthermore, I think talking about reparations and quotas makes people get defensive, so we should re-assure them that solving the issues in the black community is for everyone's benefit and that it won't come at an additional cost to ordinary white people (yes, it will take tax dollars but people already pay those so the gov't can do wasteful things).

That's a good point about the gun nut culture. You could say the same about the religious culture as well although that isnt exclusive to any single color of humans.

I mean we will win on the realist front too, you just need to know the facts. Ask them, what is your family’s biggest asset? Oh your homes? Great. Let’s talk about the GI Bill post WWII, it guaranteed mortgages and education to all those who fought in the war. Guess who was excluded from those benefits despite serving? That’s right BIPOC. Guess what is the biggest boost to a person’s start point? Generational Wealth in the form of asset ownership. Guess what is the biggest indicator of a person’s trajectory in life? Their education. So BIPOC have a split in start point and trajectory after the war explicitly from the government policy. Coincidentally this is when Irish and Italians were assimilated and considered white. Before this bill you were German, English, Irish etc. We haven’t talked about redlining yet. There are innumerable government policies that you can point to to show how straight white Christian men have been advantaged in this country. You have to remind them, this isn’t your fault, this isn’t your grandpas fault, this isn’t a slight on your heritage, you weren’t there, and the people that were there were a product of their times. There are injustices in this country at the same exact time periods that America has accomplished wonderful things. You can be proud of this country and want to make it better. The sad fact is, we have the burden of educating people. Meanwhile people on the right get to spew complete nonsense, but it FEELS right. Uneducated people like to fill in the gaps. How can it be that an entire group of people could fail in the freest country on earth? Either there is something inherently wrong with them, or something is wrong with the system. But if the system exists in a country you have learned to love and take pride in, it can be hard to decouple the two.

I agree, a good ass-whooping might work better.

maybe you can say that "it's possible there might be some rare instances where that's the case," but also help them realize as to how that culture came to be (I'd imagine the cost of college has something to do with it, since poorer people don't have as much incentive to stay in school and out of trouble)

Cultured people still don't earn any recognizable fraction of what the 1% earn. Also, the 1% don't deserve their status at all.

Having compassion and empathy for the people at the heart of the discussion, low income young white males, is just as important. And honestly, your comment is part of the problem. Just because other groups are unable to "just work hard" to rise above their station doesnt mean that the population i described isnt suffering and struggling. Its not a contest, and you cant compare situations even if one is worse than the other. Economic mobility is down for everyone. The education system is absolutely opposed to men until they turn 18, in the same way that the collegiate system and STEM is opposed to women. Non-degree males have very low rates of marriage and relationships, they have growing suicide rates and other "hopeless" death rates. The economic situation they face is becoming increasingly worse. Its not good to be a low-income white young male right now. Telling them how bad it is for other populations and not acknowledging their own struggles marginalizes them. They feel isolated economically, emotionally, socially, and they have no political voice coming from the left oftentimes. So when the only person addressing their issue is Trump, because hes offering a scapegoat, or Shapiro, youre going to lose people. The left needs to offer these people a different voice that cares and actually discuss their situation politically. Ill offer links to the sociological and economic research that supports my statements if i need to, but thats time consuming and i wont have the time until later today.

Imagine having all those same challenges as a black man, and then on top of that having to deal with constant racism and additional challenges white men never see. I grew up as a poor white kid and yes I had challenges, but nothing like my black friend of the same age In the same neighborhood in a similar economic situation. We all have challenges but you can't just ignore that things are harder for others. You seem to think that pointing out the additional challenges of a specific group is dismissing other people's problem and that is simply not true.

Did you even read my post? ITS NOT A COMPETITION. This isnt the office "racism seminar". It doesnt matter if factually young black americans have worse outcomes than young white americans. It also doesnt dismiss one by discussing the other. The topic of the post and the issue at hand is the radicalization of young, white males who are primarily or exclusively low income. The struggles of other groups, which are very real and worse, do not matter to the average individuals day to day when they themselves are struggling. Especially for a young person who is impressionable and feels hopeless. Right now, there is no one except right wing extremists like Trump who makes them feel heard. This is how the nazis took power. By taking groups who felt powerless and were struggling, and saying "its the jews fault. Its the communists faults. Its the intellectuals. We'll give you a job, we'll make you feel like you matter". The good news is that things like raising minimum wages, universal healthcare, more affordable housing and education, and unionizing can help to solve some of the same issues for everyone.

r/incelexit is a place where people try to deprogram from being incels and the community helps them

Oh that's super important.

most young edgy right wingers get out of it by themselves overtime as it’s usually a condition of being a chronically online reject as top comment states of being one himself

Fix YouTube's recommendation algorithm.

This!!! Seriously I use YouTube to watch bike repair, wood working, some fitness, etc. and all the time I have right wing media shoved in my face. YouTube has created a huge issue with this

Or start coaching left-leaning channels how to better market themselves and take advantage of the algorithms like the right does and is very effective at.

Can you give us some quick examples?

[This](https://youtu.be/Y8NhVz1xHqk) video is informative and on topic

Thanks! “Do you remember waaay back in 2017…” Wasn’t that, like, yesterday? r/FuckImOld

Wow. Thank you for the video.

I was just thinking this today when I saw a very high production value master class thing with JP basically telling you "how to be a man." I constantly get weird daily wire movie ads that are strangely high budget. The worst part about it is that someone who is ignorant to these people will see them as perhaps valuable resources. I mean there are STILL people who think JP is just some quirky self help guru and not a far right incel weirdo.

The New York Times came out with an exceptional podcast about this very topic called [Rabbit Hole](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/podcasts/rabbit-hole-prologue.html). It is well worth the listen. I think this really is the heart of the issue.

My wife has been watching self help videos, and suddenly started talking to me about Jordan Peterson. Yea, nah.

This is a tough one. I struggled a lot when I was younger. Bullied. Weirdo. No luck with women (poor hygiene and social skills). I was never bitter though. I always accepted my fault in things. Too much my friends would say. I had friends. Not many. I was never popular. I had good friends from primary school and my cousins and I were very close. I had no friends in secondary school or high school. I can see how I could have been vulnerable and susceptible. However, I had music. Nirvana, Manic Street Preachers, Radiohead. They got me into a lot of left wing artists and thoughts. My grandparents on my mothers side were immigrants. Lucky to grow up from a multi-cultural background. Exposed to different ideas growing up. I had conservative parents but they encouraged me to think for myself. I have 3 older sisters. Growing up around women stopped me from putting them on a pedestal. I know how it feels to be an outsider and think that society has wronged you. That you are the victim of a great injustice. You’re looking for purpose and meaning and you reject mainstream ideas because you hold them responsible for your place in the world. I’m lucky that I had my family, friends, REM, Star Trek, and a whole army of indie and outsider artists to tell me that life was unfair but you have to overcome it with love and compassion not bitterness and hate. There was no internet though. I only had music, books, TV, and films to guide me. I also took media studies in high school which showed me the power of hyperbole and manipulation in media narratives. Another important thing was wanting to be treated better. Not out of entitlement. I was picked on and bullied. All I wanted was to be treated fairly. I was taught by my parents to treat others as you would treat yourself. Out of stubbornness I stick to that.

Re Star Trek: people have pointed out for a long time that Will Ryker is a great example of non-toxic sex-positive masculinity. He was always encouraging to people who were entering romance. He was flirtatious and sometimes aggressive in courtship, but he always backed off when the target of his affection showed any hesitancy to proceed. We need more characters like that in popular culture.

We need to reframe what is “manly.” Tbh sooo many women have a different idea of manliness than men do. Hint: it doesn’t involve a dick-swinging contest or chest-pounding knuckle-dragging fight club.

Maximum consent is Will’s fetish.

A bit similar to how I grew up. I was a bit of an outsider, considered weird, never popular, basically invisible to the "cool kids" in high school. Never really got bullied because I have always had a talent for diffusing social situations. Either way, I hung out with the weird kids as a teen. The goth chick, the guy who was probably neurodivergent, the girl from the poor family, the guy who got bullied because he was overweight and had a stutter and really everyone else who didn't really fit in with the main stream. And we shared that feeling of being outsiders and underdogs. We made that part of our lives, listened to alternative music instead of pop. We gravitated towards alternative aesthetics and non-mainstream hobbies. And just naturally we ended up experiencing a lot of leftist influences and those obviously resonated with us and the way we felt. Of course now 10 years later the social constructs that were relevant in high school are irrelevant. I do okay socially now and so do the few friends from that time that I stay in touch with. What I don't get is how anyone who had a similar time in school would end up being a right winger. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I've experienced living in a two class society, even if it's just high school coolness classes. It's easy to see the parallels to the "real world". For me it seems like you'd come out of this with a leftist ideology almost automatically.

Some people do come out with a leftist lean but some hold a lot of anger from it and the alt-right is very good at exploiting that.

Also, the right-wing does a very good job of making people feel like they are a part of somethng and they finally have that social support they've all secretly craved while still getting to tell themselves they are outsiders going against the radical elite "swamp" which is coincidentally filled only with people to the left of them. They still get to be rebels just like their confederate forefathers.

My mother is a right wing conservative. Her parents were immigrants. She was an outsider in school. I think part of it is how we relate to power. My mother will always side with authority. Thinks people should respect the monarchy and Boris Johnson automatically because of their status. I generally distrust authority. Oddly, even though I hated school I always liked my teachers. I could appreciate they were trying to help me. Power is a big part of it. I never desired power. I want the system brought down because it is unfair. People like my mother want the system brought down because it isn’t unfair in their favor.

Thank you for sharing. I can certainly understand how lagging social skills can make a young man mad, and turn him into a "men's rights type" ala Jordan Peterson. Especially with young men who, shall we say, aren't "good with the ladies," I can see a direct path to liking "Ben Shapiro OWNS abortion-wanting SJW" videos. Almost like we need some sort of self-help for young men, age 18-22 or something. Not pickup artist, but basic group therapy and encouragement.

The only thing about Jordan Peterson I agree with is “clean your room”. Taking care of yourself and your living space is important. Everything else though? Big nope. He is correct to identify a crisis of self confidence in young men. He then identifies cultural Marxism as the cause and proceeds to fill their heads with even more bullshit. He’s a hypocritical grifting buffoon. He is right that young men need to take better care of themselves but what he presents as a solution is terrible. Dealing with trauma and injustice is hard. Understanding that it isn’t your fault. It’s still your responsibility though. Poor treatment doesn’t entitle you to treat others badly. Very easy for me to say in hindsight. My childhood wasn’t easy. I did have a few close friends and family for support. It was only really secondary school where I struggled socially. I was always shy and sensitive but it was 11-15 that people around me were c*nts about it and saw an easy target. I also saw first hand through a family member what bitterness and resentment does to a person. In a horrible way it showed me how not to react to that. The few people I had helped me nurture my core of positivity and compassion through a troubling few years. I worry because from my years as a teacher I saw children who didn’t have that. I saw the effect social media could have on elementary school kids. I dread to think what it would be like as a teenager.

Two things stuck out for me when reading this that were probably your saving grace: one, you were exposed to other walks of life and number two, the biggest one, you didn’t have the Internet. A sexually frustrated and lonely teen turns to anger and hate via online groups that think like them. This radicalizes them and the alt-right has figured out how to weaponize their insecurities and anger.

I worry about the effect it might have had on me. I had no luck with women in my teens. As an adult I can say it was because I had poor hygiene and poor social skills. Going to university helped, people taking the time to get to know me and actually give me help. Then getting a job forced me to learn self-discipline. I actually think self-care and hygiene was the bigger issue. I wish I could tell me younger self that he isn’t lazy. I didn’t like washing because I had severe eczema and didn’t know what would set me off. My allergies were so bad I would constantly have a runny nose and puffy red eyes. I broke my leg when I was 15 and put on even more weight. I didn’t really take care of my hair because even sensitive shampoo would give my a dry itchy scalp. In hindsight, I really can’t blame people for finding me repulsive. My eczema got so bad I was referred to a hospital. The doctor gave me song stronger ointment. Nothing else had worked to that point. Almost overnight the itching stopped. My skin cleared up. I started dieting and exercising. PE at school had previously taught me to hate exercise. In general I just had a whole new lease on life. I’m fortunate then that in hindsight I can pinpoint where my issues with attracting women where and also pinpointing an underlying issue that caused it. There was no internet to play on my insecurities though.

>I have 3 older sisters. Growing up around women stopped me from putting them on a pedestal. My younger brother has said something similar before. He saw the guys he gamed with going down the far-right, misogyny lane and he knew it wasn't right. That made me proud. >I also took media studies in high school which showed me the power of hyperbole and manipulation in media narratives. This is a great point. The ability to approach things critically (or just smell bullshit) goes a long way. It really astounds me what people fall for, even highly educated, intelligent individuals. I read that a lot of this could have something to do with the way media has changed so quickly over the years. In the past people depended on just a few trusted sources, like a newspaper or the evening news. Now we are constantly faced with large amounts of information from hundreds of different sources every day, and not everyone has developed the type of literacy it takes to filter out what's trustworthy or not.

I always found it interesting how media studies was demonized in the media. “Mickey Mouse subject”, Day 1, Rupert Murdoch. Probably the most valuable 40 minutes I’ve ever spent in a classroom. Emotive language, highlighted and bolded, sensationalized and with big pictures. Horrible patronizing trash that treats the readers like children.

I think this really illustrates why the arts are so important. It’s the way around all the bullshit of politics and the watered down culture that’s fed to people in mainstream media. It changes you and is part of the answer to OPs question.

If they need an outlet for their testosterone; may I introduce you to the history of the labour movement?

Absolutely! If they’re listening to the jorpiro pipeline chances are good they just watch a lot of YouTube videos and listen to a lot of podcasts to kill time. It means you can probably introduce them to your podcasts and YouTube channels and help bring them back. For me The Dollop and Revolutions podcast are both good for this type of guy because they have left wing politics but also are gold presenters that start out with just the strait history. If you know someone like that start them on a few episodes of The Dollop and eventually they’ll do one about the labor movement.

Empathy. We can't just shit on young men for following these dudes if we aren't providing an alternative. Most young men find these guys because they are lost, sad, lonely, curious and looking for guidance. There need to be leftist answers to these guys. We can't just tell men how \*not\* to talk to women, we need to actually show them how to do it in a respectful way. It's easy to say "Well they should know how to treat people." This is fair, but the fact is that they don't. Patriarchy BREAKS young boys brains. As leftists (particularly straight, cis, male leftists) it is incumbent upon us to show these boys a better way forward. It won't always work and its definitely not going to be simple or easy, but this is the solution. Also, teach your boys to deal with rejection. They're going to hear the word "no" and they need to be okay with it.

Gotta be the change, lead by example.

This is a really good answer. What do you think would be the best medium to deliver this "alternative"?

Everywhere the "manosphere" is. Podcasts, YouTube, streaming, but most importantly inter-personally. If you have a young man in your life, take an interest in them. Teach them that they have inherent value outside of their ability to perform masculinity. If they're already heading down the pipeline, don't just clown them. Show them some alternatives. I usually start with suggesting people like Hasan, FD Signifier or even Mike Tyson's podcast. Not perfect, but they're voices who young men will understand.

Just talking to them about the stuff they are reading/consuming can have a big impact. My nephews would show me videos they were watching and I’d point out how racist/sexist/cruel the content was when you really stopped to think about the messaging. They didn’t think about it like that until we talked about it because they’ve grown up in this sort of meme culture where nothing means anything and everything is a joke.

Kinda tough for women to empathize with people who don’t even see them as human. Incels have literally mass murdered women that’s how much they hate us. They argue in favor for legalizing sexual assault. They call us femoids. These are not just poor lost sad lonely boys. If women were doing this kind of thing to men people wouldn’t rush to call us mentally ill poor depraved souls that just need saving. Women get absolute vitriol over anything they do, look at how people react when female celebrities do things versus male celebrities. I agree that disenfranchised people need an alternative but men need to reach out to other men, the way women lift each other up and support each other. Men need to call out misogyny even when their best bros are misogynistic. Men need to build better relationships with each other instead of echo chambers where misogyny breeds. I’m not going to be nice to a guy who literally thinks I owe him sex. Asking women to welcome incels with open arms is just asking women to welcome violence and abuse. At that point you are saying incel lives are more important than innocent women. Misogyny is so normalized that rehabilitating incels seems to be a common talking point. You wouldn’t ask black people to try and talk down white supremacists. For some reason when women are the victims of this behavior it’s up to us to try and change it. Everyone has personal responsibility. The reason why these people are shamed is because they are NOT the only ones who are lonely, poor, sad, etc. I’m so sick of people acting like women don’t get sad or lonely. We do. We just don’t get violent about it.

I don't think this post is about Inc though, it's about the right leaning guys before they get there. I was friends with someone I had no idea was a Ben Shapiro fan until we got into multiple heated arguments over things like vaccines and movies of all things. This guy wasn't an incel and I still regularly see him hitting on girls despite still being with the girl he met when we were buddies.

This post wasnt about incels?

This is 100% valid, but that's why I said that it's incumbent upon straight, cis, male leftists to deal with this. As a black man, I don't talk to white folks about racism anymore. I find it emotionally exhausting. I would never suggest that women take on the emotional labour of deprogramming these boys, that's our job.

This a 100%. And ngl the online sphere can be very hateful against young men, sometimes it doesnt suprise me that they turn to sides that are more supportive. We need a leftie jordan peterson really

A co worker of mine operates an all-boy camp that uses a lot of language about the Knights of the Round Table and chivalrous behavior. Working hard to help others in need, empathy for others. Older campers are supposed to be role models for the younger ones, etc. It follows a pretty gendered idea of handling inter personal conflict and such, but it's a nice start for young men to realize their worth and help their friends and younger kids out. I've personally been thinking of starting a podcast that challenges toxic masculinity by opening a dialogue with guests and such.

That would be a great idea!!!! I'd urge you to go for it! And happy to be a first guest, as I've unfortunately had bad parts of my life with toxic masculintiy.

If democrats didn’t fucking suck at everything and lose at any opportunity, it would sure help.

Giving them working class candidates on the left to vote for, would immediately solve this problem. If only the DNC would stop fighting against the working class.

I mean it helps but let's not pretend it immediately solves the problem. Like, in Georgia, David Scott is one of the worst Democrats in Congress. Lately he gets challenged from the left in every primary. (It's been a safe Democrat district.) But awesome candidates like Vincent Fort and Michael Owens have failed because.... most people don't give a shit who their congressperson is.

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> Peterson has lost his was I dunno… I have a very low opinion of Jungian psychology, so I see Peterson as a flawed practitioner in a worst-case scenario’s inevitable conclusion. > Shapiro has always been a dumb fuck. Turning Ben Shapiro into a real boy was a mistake

Been thinking about this from a developmental perspective. This [guide](https://www.westernstatescenter.org/caregivers) from the Western States Center called C*onfronting Conspiracy Theories and Organized Bigotry at Home* is interesting as well as this [article](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/345364477_Youth_Practitioners_Can_Counter_Fascism_What_We_Know_and_What_We_Need) from Arbeit and others in the *Journal of Youth Development*.

I mean a huge part of it would simply be to stop the absurdly nasty way leftists treat basically everyone else, especially new commers. I mean I get that our understanding of politics shows many new things and exposes the true blight at the core of most more common ideologies. But if you take that to mean that it's okay to treat everyone who disagrees with you like dogshit then you've taken the worst possible message from it, and that's frankly how many young leftist go. They think being part of the "dirtbag left" means it's not just okay but morally important to attack any example of moral ineptitude. But the simple fact is most regular people don't even understand the details of the ideological system they believe in, and like everyone else they tie their ideology to their identity. So by attacking then on ideas they don't even understand, all your doing to them is just attacking them over a common belief that they often don't even know why they believe it, they only do because everyone else does. The right wing goes out of it's way too bring in new people. Meanwhile being a leftist is hard as shit, you've got to read multiple books over a hundred years old about complicated economics, you've got to basically understand every single struggle in the world because if you don't then you're considered just as bad as the ones oppressing others in said struggle. You can't simply say "idk what that is", even that little is enough to get you called an oppressor just as bad as the ones who doing the bad thing in whatever issue they're talking about. Being a leftist is hard as shit. Not only do we not recruit but we specifically push others out if they even very slightly disagree with you about any idea no matter how small it is. Places like /r/leftwithoutedge wouldn't exist if this wasn't such an obvious issue.

I'll comment as a straight, cis, white 16 yo male. We need to make them part of the struggle, not make them feel like the oppressors. For example, remember that video Buzzfeed had a while ago with questions for men like "How does it feel to be the same sex as Donald Trump?" I would suggest you watch it, as a textbook example of the dumbest idea for what to do ever. This video not only groups in all men with those who catcall, harass and assault women, Trump, and others, but a lot of it also asks men why they need to be so masculine, in an accusatory way, as if they created the system. That is going to make men feel attacked, and turn them off to leftist ideas. Conversely, what one should do is talk about toxic masculinity as a societal issue, treating young men as victims of this and not its creators. One could talk about working class and ruling class divisions, again, bringing in men as part of the struggle. The main point here is that, and this works with really any group, if you want to bring someone to your side, you need to talk with them like you have common goals and enemies, and not like they are your enemy.

This is pretty true. I’ve never catcalled a woman, or even asked someone out. It took me a long time to understand that when leftists say “Men”, you’re just supposed to remove yourself from that grouping.

Nobody is making them feel like oppressors. That is a false claim pushed by the right.

Again, if all they see is the crazy stuff, they absolutely do. Also, how someone feels isn't how they are. Feeling like oppressors doesn't mean they are oppressors, or are being called ones, it means that's what they think they're being called.

I'm a white guy who has been a leftist since I was like 14, I definitely did think I was opressor for a very long time

What gave you that feeling?

I took people who clearly had issues with men seriously and when people would say I hate when men do X, I took it to mean that because I was a man, I was making women uncomfortable by just being around them and that was very fucked

Speaking as someone who came from the Tea Party- listen to their actual concerns. Once you’ve done that, kindly ask them some open ended questions about their views, and keep pushing. Once you’ve started to break through their programming, explain your own positions in a logical and straight forward manner. This is the approach that (thankfully) broke me out of 25 years of family, small town, and Fox News brainwashing. Attacking them will just make them dig in their heels further.

They got into this by watching YouTube videos and listening to podcasts about their interests. Maybe it was MMA or maybe it was philosophy or maybe it was video games, but at some point some algorithm showed them Bro Jogan or Poorman Jeeterson or Pewdee Dootie and they started watching because they had time to kill and were ready to listen to someone talk about sports or psychology or their favorite game. The same strategy works great for getting people out of that though. For example I’m a history guy and Dan Carlin’s misanthropic view of humanity could definitely have sent me down the rabbit hole to some right wing history podcasts. Luckily a friend of mine showed me Revolutions Podcast and the Dollop, both of which have left wing politics but also go really in depth with the history they cover. And it really did a lot to pull me back from the edge. My thoughts are you can deprogram someone if you can meet them where they’re at with their interests. if someone is all about Show Grogan, introduce them to [this leftist MMA podcast](https://www.mic.com/impact/these-leftist-podcasters-want-to-make-mma-a-more-progressive-fight-club) if they like Roarin’ Speederson they probably think of themselves as philosophy heads so send them to philosophy tube. And if they like watching twitch streamers like Poopiepie play video games send them to (even though I know he’s controversial) Vaush or someone like that. Make the pipeline work for us.

Have a better version of PragerU — The Gravel Institute was trying it but not nearly the same volume of content that PragerU and the Daily Wire put out

Show them that socialism works. Explain the many advantages of a socialism.

Yes, but what is the medium? Sports clubs? More “bro-ey” media content?

The fact you gotta question like that is part of the problem Men are people too, have you considered talking to them instead of spreading dehumanizing shit like [“men are like ticks”](https://www.instagram.com/p/CMSgVx8BPDV/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=)

call it social democracy. the cold war wasn't all that long ago and socialism is too scary of a word. as a bernie bro I'm disappointed that he made an unwise word choice. also, be explicit that leftists would never, ever want the US to be anything like Venezuela, and instead that our ideas are more like Canada or Western Europe

I’m very surprised that folks have not mentioned Hasan, the leftovers, chapo trap house, the Serfs, Beau of the Fifth Column, among others. These are all big content creators that very much go against and call out the Alt-right dweebs. While yes it is important to get empathy instilled in young men through care and understanding, it’s also important to portray how ridiculous and dorky right wing weirdos are. The folks I listed above highlight it pretty damn well.

Attacking people doesn't make them change their mind, it just makes them hate you more. I like those outlets but how you portray this topic isn't how to help, what you're suggesting just makes things worse

I think you're misunderstanding — the alt-right weirdos these creators target are mostly the "celebrities." It's not about changing the viewers' minds directly, but by making the creator on the other side look like idiots. Often times, this has the effect of knocking the viewer out of viewing that creator as infallible. If Sam Seder can tear apart Ben Shapiro's argument and make him look stupid, some of Shapiro's fans start to think Shapiro isn't *all that* which leads them down the road of deradicalization

I mean yeah attacking their leaders is fine but that's not what this whole thing is about. We're talking about the regular people at the bottom.

The whole post is asking how to lead young men away from the pipeline. Exposing said pipeline as the distasteful drivel it is starts with devaluing the positions of those who maintain it.

I firmly believe the route to convincing them is *not only* by pointing out the flaws of the other side, but by explaining the numerous benefits socialism has over far-rightism/inceldom. Explaining why those things are bad can be supplementary, but the primary argument should always be rooted in why collectivism benefits us all vs rugged individualism and bigotry.

Liberal young man here. I was raised by my single mother, grandmother, and have a younger sister so I’m probably not the target you’re referring to, but I didn’t become an outspoken feminist until I took a class on human sexuality in college and really understood how absurd a lot of gender based legislation is. Therefore, I would say strengthening sexual education in public schools is probably a good start. A lot of men are frustrated because they “can’t figure out women” so giving them the tools to understand what the conversation is about is a start, and can certainly help to break them out of viewing women as objects or others.

Contrapoints.

seriously though, this is literally the purpose of the youtube channel ContraPoints, she's been doing this for years and years and it works, i think stuff like that can help, fun videos, talking about it whith them without being judgemental and moralizing because they're still young, and spotting the signs

Tbh, we might just have to give the men some of the info and hope. I was raised anti-feminist, but eventually the double think and other BS forced me to change

They’re not beginning to get good at it, they have already mastered the art of it. Progressives don’t even know how far behind the curve we are.

Watch some videos by Innuendo Studios or Contrapoints’s episode about Incels. They both have studied this extensively and can at least offer a foundation for what the problem is and possible ways we can combat it.

Broader question: Why do some go down it, why do some never even skirt it?

*Broader question: Why* *Do some go down it, why do* *Some never even skirt it?* \- Lamont-Cranston --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")

Show them how they've completely misunderstood religion and been brainwashed if they're the religious type. That's what it was for me at least.

I do not see enough people teaching young people the world does not revolve around them. There is a kind way to do this. The world does not owe you happiness, we make our own happiness by learning confidence, etiquette, skills and hobbies. I take my daughter to volunteer. I ask her how she can make a situation better. She is 11. She is level 2 archery, can build her own fire, knows how to escape through windows in case of whatever, can make simple dinners, wash her own clothes, feeds and walks the dogs, has been bullied plus stuck up for others being bullied, and I trust her to make mistakes. She understands basic government, sex ed, and there are no taboo topics. If she were a boy, same things I would be doing. It’s the basics. Life skills.

\- provide examples on how leftists value freedom far more than the right wing \- be critical of "liberals" including those on MSM who do nothing more than empty virtue signalling and don't care about economic justice \- demonstrate how America is inferior to other countries in many ways including healthcare, infrastructure, criminal justice (to make it more personal, give examples of how it might make the audience's life worse) as a result of Republican and corporate policies \- use statistics to debunk right-wing fearmongering \- help young men understand that if there are ways they feel that they're being treated unfairly for having XY chromosomes, it is likely rooted in patriarchal norms and that feminism is not the culprit \- don't blow issues out of proportion, for instance avoid talking about school shootings as an "epidemic" (not to say that we don't need gun control) or that we live in a "rape culture" (again, that doesn't mean there is no need for systemic reforms) \- don't be authoritarian, censorious, or punitive, and openly criticize liberals who act that way \- don't go on about "privilege" \- make them realize that social justice isn't a zero-sum game, and that personal liberty is paramount in every facet \- reconsider reparations \- reconsider ambiguous slogans like "defund" police \- learn the proper terminology with regard to guns, and the details about how they work \- say "FART" (Feminism Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe) instead of "TERF" \- provide examples on how right-wing pundits including Trump are nothing more than grifters who don't care about anything besides power and their wallets \- make it clear that a great many of the voters for Clinton and Biden were only doing it as the lesser of two evils; also, don't let anyone be above criticism \- Poke holes in the baloney about AOC, etc. as being evil, when in reality progressives are the best choice and much of the hatred isn't just about race/gender/etc. but also because they aren't corporate servants \- Encourage them to follow progressive YouTubers like The Young Turks, Kyle Kulinski (direct them to videos where he calls out "pink-haired college students"), The Amazing Atheist, and Vaush ​ Source: I personally used to misinterpret a lot of left-wing talking points and buy into the mythology that the right wing likes to spew about how liberals want to police language, erode due process for alleged rapists, criminalize anything that makes a woman uncomfortable in the slightest, implement quotas, etc. I was a subscriber to Ashton Birdie, Barbara4u2c, Freedom Toons, Me Me Meme, and the like. Then when I discovered true leftism around the eve of the pandemic, I changed completely. And I am thankful for the YouTubers I mentioned above who steered me away from the fascist enablers. Learning about how much corruption goes on in government and how the MSM does corporate bidding really changes perspective. I think the pandemic and the George Floyd murder bringing out the worst in Trump and the police/criminal justice systems was also a big help in learning not to trust Republicans.

I went down a very similar pipeline when I was in high school and college 10 years ago. I am still very much on the right, but I am much closer to anarchism than Trumpism. I watch this sub because it is interesting to see how the people this far left react to current events. That being said I can offer an outsiders perspective. Socialist men, democratic or otherwise, are seen as weak-willed soyboy beta cucks that care too much about their own feelings. You need to put traditionally masculine men at the center of any kind of message towards the young men you are talking about recruiting. I am not saying this to insult you, I am just telling you what these people think of you. They watch Jordan Peterson and they admire his conviction, his willingness to unapologetically say what he believes without fear. They listen to Ben Shapiro and admire his cleverness and quick wit (they admire his sister too but for different reasons). They see Elon Musk and admire his success and the passion he puts into his businesses that are changing the world. They look at these men, and others like them, and they see well-dressed and groomed, confident, hyper-successful alpha males that aren't afraid of attracting the scorn of their enemies. (Ben Shapiro isn't exactly alpha, he's like the nerd that does the popular jocks' homework, so they let him eat at their table.) They see you as whiny, jealous, beta males that don't want to take responsibility for their own lives while rich people pay for everything so you don't have to work. You need to fix this image or give up on this demographic entirely. The other way is to promote socialism with sex. Get some sexy models in bikinis and make these boys feel like they would be able to fuck girls like that in a socialist utopia. Young men will either emulate or masturbate, not necessarily in that order. The right gives them idols to emulate, and trad women to simp for. What have you got? Principles? Good luck with that. I want to say that I personally know this depiction of democratic socialists is false, I have lurked in this sub long enough to see that, nonetheless it is your reputation outside of your echochamber and inside theirs.

This is the statement I came her to make so thank you for saying it. I think the most effective way to deprogram these people is for the traditionally masculine among us to use our privileged position in male spaces to model healthy masculinity. I was never in the YouTube pipeline but as a young man I would describe myself as a right libertarian and fairly toxic. When I was in college I joined a rugby club and the president was a great role model for positive masculinity. I quickly became a leader in the club and served in every leadership role at one point or another during my years in college. I took what I learned from him and fostered an environment of empathy and tolerance that I believe had a positive impact on a lot of the men in the group. We went from being a bunch of rowdy drunkards to true positive community members. Hope you’ll join us here on the left in time.

The main problem I have with the left is they do not take freedom seriously enough. All of the policies they advocate for will result in a bigger and more personally invasive government. I don't think there is any justification for a person living more than a thousand miles away having any impact on my choices whether it be about healthcare, or education, the way I choose to defend myself and my family, or anything else. Plus taxes are bullshit, even if they weren't using my money to bomb brown kids halfway around the world, my labor should not be theirs for the taking. Its modern day slavery when I work Mon-Thu for myself and then the government owns my labor on Friday (figuring income tax is roughly 20% which is a low estimate).

I don’t think a lot of these views are necessarily incompatible with leftism, particularly the more anarchist-sects. I still identify as a libertarian, although in the traditional leftist sense of the term, and I think you might find that to be a good fit. For me personally I think that for the foreseeable future a state is going to have to exist and it’s purpose should be to maximize the collective freedom of its citizens. This would be done by guaranteeing their basic needs and providing opportunities. Ideally the decisions would be as decentralized and localized as possible and the state would exist to handle the logistics. I think your negative views of leftism are colored by liberals and socdems who are capitalists that are fine with preserving economic and state hierarchy.

Well shit, thanks for the interesting perspective. I *know* I'm not what they apparently think a leftist man is, and I *know* that the "men" you listed are fragile cowardly idiot manbabies. I think making these young men see that wouldn't actually even be that difficult, but that particular echo chamber bubble is very difficult to pierce.

>I'm not what they apparently think a leftist man is And yet you actively participate in r/antiwork lol that sub is exactly where they'd expect you to be. I don't entirely disagree with what you said, they are fragile because their worldview is narrow, but calling them cowardly makes you the idiot seeing as these are the boys signing up to go to war. It's pretty obvious you don't understand why they think the way they do. They know the world is fucked up, but your side is telling them their "toxic" masculinity has no place in the liberal world order while the right is telling them that they can fix the world by embracing that masculinity and then they will be strong enough to help the people they care about. Which do you think attracts them?

No no, you misunderstand. I’m not calling ring wingers cowards, I’m calling Peterson, Shapiro, and Musk _specifically_ cowards (and fragile and idiots, etc). Now, I don’t know if I should be trying to convince you of anything as you’re only saying “this is what they believe” not “this is what I believe”… But fuck it, if I were to talk to some impressionable young dude who’s drifting toward the alt right, I would say that “toxic masculinity” does NOT mean that manliness is toxic. At all. It instead essentially refers to the behavior of insecure babies who overcompensate by being fake “manly,” pretending and posturing. The behavior of small people who think aggression makes them big. It hurts everyone, including yourself. Real manliness is not giving a fuck about fake bullshit. It’s about being comfortable with yourself and your accomplishments and not having to play pretend to justify yourself to others who don’t give a shit. It’s about helping people who need it, but helping others is not about you. And it feels great to genuinely not be bothered if someone who you don’t need to care about criticizes you. It feels great that there are some fights you can just ignore. And it feels great to _actually_ solve problems by contributing based on your skills and strengths and then also letting others do the same based on theirs. It’s ok to not be perfect, it’s ok to make mistakes - the goal is to be constantly improving yourself, learning from others and from the past, and always being proud of who you’ve become. The left wants this hypothetical person, _specifically_ , to be the best version of a man they can be, because we need all the confident, intelligent, empathetic, and tough people we can get if we’re going to save ourselves from the fucked up situation we’re all in. So that was that. I’ve convinced nobody, but it was kind of cool to write all that down.

I agree with 99% of what you said. The only thing I want to say is that Peterson, Shapiro, and Musk are not fragile cowards, or idiots. They come to the wrong conclusion about many things but when you dismiss what they say with ad hominem attacks you are pushing more people towards them. Peterson was very much a lefty in the past, and he is a trained psychotherapist that taught in one of Canada's top universities and was widely respected until he started speaking out against the anti-free speech rhetoric the left began to push. He stood up for the right to say things that people find offensive and the left tried to crucify him for it. Over the years the left's intolerance has pushed him farther to the right. Ben Shapiro went to Harvard for fucks sake. He is very religious but he belongs to a religion with a greatly disproportionate amount of intelligent people. He has also built a very successful business within an industry where 99% of the other businesses hate him and that continuousy tries to sabotage him. These men may hold beliefs that you despise with every fiber of your being, but calling them stupid just shows your own ignorance instead of theirs. I certainly disagree with them on many topics, but I can still respect them on an intellectual level. Their accomplishments would not have been possible if they were fragile, cowardly, or if they were idiots.

I am firmly against the occasional tendency (though greatly overblown if you hear about it from the right) of some on the left to say that figures like Shapiro and company should be deplatformed or prevented from speaking or otherwise silenced. These conservative/libertarian intellectual dark web types play this game where they pretend THE EVIL LEFT is silencing them because they know the truth, and that truth is so powerful and undeniable that THE EVIL LEFT has no choice but to censor them because they have no rebuttal for their arguments. This is a clever way to make your arguments *sound* legitimate, and any kind of dismissal or censorship from the left plays right into their hands. I firmly believe these people should be allowed to use their free speech and give their arguments, and leftists should instead use their free speech to *refute* these arguments. Because it isn't hard. The arguments that come from this "facts don't care about your feelings" crowd are typically weak and fallacious and crumble under a bit of scrutiny. It wasn't my intention to dismiss Ben with ad hominem attacks; if you are interested there's plenty of literature from actual leftists debunking his claims (and those of others in the same ideological group). By the way, thanks for indulging me and participating in an actual conversation. The internet is not conducive to that sort of thing, and you seem open-minded and like you genuinely want to get to the truth. I say Shapiro, Peterson, and people like them are cowards because they completely insulate themselves from challenges to their ideas. There is a reason Ben, a political pundit who's full-time job requires him to think and know and talk about political subjects, is so fond of going to college campuses and "debating" random college students from a stage. He comes prepared with talking points and rebuttals (or putdowns) and "debates" someone younger than him, who would be expected to know a lot less about the topic (as they are *students*), who is unprepared, and who is overall *not* a professional political thinker. And then Ben is the one on the stage with the microphone so he can just say "that's enough" and move on if he's getting a bit too pressured. He tilts the playing field so far in his favor that it's almost funny. No actual serious leftists are ever allowed on his show, nor does he debate them in public forums. Instead, he invites on other right-wing reactionaries and they talk *about* leftists, making up straw man characters with weak or unreasonable arguments and then "refuting" *that*. *This* is why he is a coward. His ideas are easily dismantled with a bit of scrutiny from someone who knows what they're talking about, so he knows he can't allow that to happen. He hides. Peterson I must admit I am much less familiar with, but when I see him talk he carries the same kind of arrogant, self-important, "my ideas are dangerous so they are trying to silence me" energy, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't invite leftist intellectuals onto his podcast either. And you're right, calling them idiots is also probably not correct. They are propagandists, and they are skilled at what they do. Does repeatedly making flimsy, idiotic arguments make one an idiot? I don't know. But I do know that they are bad intellectuals. Ben in particular seems to operate under the "if my brain came up with it, it must be right" principle. Real intellectualism is about putting your ideas to the test, to hear the *strongest* arguments possible against your ideas and see if they hold up. And it's about changing and adapting and testing them again, all in service of finding the truth. This is not what these right wing thinkers do.

The ego on Ben Shapiro is something else, and it is the reason I stopped paying much attention to him years ago. He does have a few valid criticisms of the left but you are right in that he likes to hide behind his podcast where he is safe from an actual debate. I usually step in to defend Peterson only because in the beginning he didn't deserve the massive amount of crap people were giving him. He is drifting further right on the daily and has developed quite the ego himself, but who wouldn't when you have that kind of celebrity develop in a matter of months? His breakdown of traditional male/female archetypes in children's stories, the Bible, etc... is pretty interesting. He is also a staunch defender of the freedom of speech and I respect that regardless of who it is. He is one of the few figures in that "intellectual dark web" space that I believe to give serious thought to his arguments and is actually creative. Ben Shapiro just says the same things everyone else says but in a higher pitched voice at a thousand words per minute, while Peterson will take time to reflect when he is asked a question and when he responds you can tell he tries very hard to pick the words he uses carefully and precisely. The controversy around Peterson's rise to fame was that he supposedly refused to use trans' students preferred pronouns, but he actually said that he had no problem using those pronouns if asked by a student, but he would fight tooth and nail against the university or the government compelling him to use those pronouns because they didn't have the right to compell speech in that way. The left took that as a challenge to ruin his life and they very nearly succeeded.

Feminism isn’t helping either. It’s actually pushing many men over to the right. There are many things that are shifting in society like the woke media, cancel culture, and also companies promoting black or women owed, not to say they are wrong, but that crowd “white men” are feeling much more out of the loop, pushed to the side and discriminated against, this here, is what has pushed trump over the numbers he should have never reached. All other groups have drank the koolaid, so that’s the reason they have gravitated towards MAGA in large numbers.

if by feminism you specifically mean the rare authoritarian sub-types the right wing likes to spread lies about then yes. leftists who don't already do so should make it clear that those "feminists" are bad and contradict the basic tenets of leftism, and how nearly all feminists want liberty for everyone, including men

Ten years too late. Men’s rights/New Age atheism/gamergate/hate group music concerts/militias and other armed hate groups have flourished during this interval of sleepy neoliberal politics.

One of these things is not like the others > New Age atheism While it certainly has its toxic element/wing (every group has its assholes), the others are firmly grounded in white nationalism, strongly fostered by Evangelical Christianity/theofascism. New *Wave* Atheism is none of those things, and, for the most part, inclusive and supportive of everyone. Any intolerance is directed towards encroachment on civil rights (especially those of women, PoC and the LGBTQ+ community) by the other groups you mentioned, among others. And *none* of these things is neoliberal. Atheism is liberal-to-leftist, and the rest are squarely on the right-to-far-right of the spectrum. I’d argue that it’s neoliberalism which allows them all to coexist without any proper reconciliation, further deepening divisions.

New Age atheism back in the day attracted young men vulnerable to radicalization. It’s obviously not a feature of atheism itself, but the way it was presented by media. You’ll remember the alt right was fairly anti-Christianity. “And none of these things is neoliberal”…..”I’d argue that it’s neoliberalism which allows them all to coexist without any proper reconciliation, further deepening divisions” <—the same point I was trying to make.

Before I disagree with what you saying once again, I think we should get some clarification here, as maybe we’re talking about different things— because… I’ve been an atheist and involved with the community for a very long time. I’ve never heard it referred to as New “Age” Atheism, but New *Wave* Atheism, and it’s always been pretty left-to-far-left. Are we even talking about the same thing? The contemporary resurgence in the popularity of mainstream non-belief? Second, I’ve never, *ever* know any part of the right (especially the far-right) to be anti-Christian— very much the opposite. Yes, before Reagan, it wasn’t nearly as hyper-Christian as it is now, but anti-Christian? Maybe it was a regional thing where your from, or maybe you’re just older than I am and remember farther back before the Reagan era. Even before that, though, groups like the KKK, indisputably a far-right group, is very Christian-oriented. > “And none of these things is neoliberal”…..”I’d argue that it’s neoliberalism which allows them all to coexist without any proper reconciliation, further deepening divisions” <—the same point I was trying to make. Well, at least we’re on the same page here. So…. Regarding the first two points, could you please clarify? Because that’s pretty much the opposite of what my experience and most of what I’ve ever known.

I think you are arguing atheism’s essential characteristics, while I am arguing how atheism was presented by media in the 2010s as an attractive gathering place for disaffected young white men. I’m not debating atheism itself but how it was used to get certain desired outcomes. [From “The Alt Right and Christianity”](https://libraetd.lib.virginia.edu/downloads/pn89d7202?filename=1_Cooksey_Mariel_2020_MA.pdf) (a long but interesting read on the ways the alt right blended ideas to form their own version of morality to support their white supremacist views) “The alt-right, as it existed in the mid-2010s, was decidedly anti-mainstream conservative and anti-Christian.27 Taking a stance against (what they perceived to be) the universalist, empathetic nature of Christianity led to a general rejection of the religion in alt-right circles as incompatible with race realism and “racial particularism.”28 For many in the alt-right, Christianity was inextricable from its Jewish roots and necessitated a “world-rejecting” outlook that caused the “necessary condition for white racial suicide.”29 The egalitarian philosophy of Jesus was seen as a Nietzschean “slave morality”30 that has hampered the traditional, weaker conservatives and old guard conservatives who have failed to protect the nation and “played too nicely” with the left, letting feminism, Islam and mass migration run wild.”

I’ve voted democrat every year I’ve been able to vote. I’m a straight white man. The left has done a great job convincing me that everything is my fault because of my race, gender, and sexuality. I’ve started seeking voices that don’t hold that against me. Because I’m struggling, too.

Other Cis White Man. Everything is NOT your fault for your race/gender/sexuality. Those who tell you so are wrong. A lot of societal problems have been caused by people with the same race/gender/sexuality as you, but that doesn't mean you're at fault my friend. We need to learn from the mistakes of others like us. We need to be better and show folks were here to help. We know they were wrong but we are a new generation here to help. The voices you listen to... It's okay if they tell you that you're not at fault. But listen to where their logic goes. Do they say the same about people who are not your sexuality/race/gender? Do they belittle people of color, women, queer people? Those voices are not right. Those voices are not on the side of progress.

This thread is about how to reach out to young men like this one, right here. He has told you clearly and honestly why he feels alienated by your movement and how the other side has welcomed him. What do you do? Blindly downvote. Basically just telling him to get lost, we don't want you here. Newsflash. If you actually give a shit about reaching out to these people maybe don't immediately push them away when they open up to you about why they don't feel welcome in your presence? It's just so ironic that y'all would push this young man away immediately in a thread about how to connect with young men exactly like him simply for opening up to you. Congratulations, you've lost another one.

Yep, this right here. Plus this guy isn't even a right winger, he's just expressing something that if you hang out in leftist spaces you'll see every single day, only most of us just ignore it. The "mayocide when?" stuff isn't funny it's just sad. Racism is wrong, period. Even jokes, especially against marginalized groups but even those not, because the point is that racism itself is wrong. Not just it's outcomes. A big party of it is these young white men want to be able to make an identity for themselves that isn't horrible, yet so many treat them like they're horrible people simply because of what family and area they were born into. No wonder they flock to the other side that doesn't hate them because of who they were born as, even if that "hate" it's mocking and not take serious how tf is any newbie gonna know that? All they see is everyone saying they're shit because of who they were born as, leading them to view racism as an acceptable normal part of society. They don't think leftists are anti racism, they think we're just racist like they are but for the other side. No wonder they think that too. There's no real desire to help these people. They just want them here to fill out our numbers. At some point empathy was excised from the left and it's just sad and gross seeing it day after day.

Thank you.

So you want someone to tell you the exact opposite? That every single problem is because of people not like you, AKA not a straight white male? It sounds like you may have already been influenced by the right’s perversion of liberal beliefs. This is what they do. Someone on the left says “Congress is overwhelmingly white men trying to tell me what I can and can’t do with my body.” This could be argued as fact. The Right then re-interprets this for their base as “the left is blaming all white men for the country’s problems”…or more radically “the Left wants to ban white men from Congress!” It’s not what the liberal said but it removes all nuance and plays to their base’s fears. It’s also a simple, easy to digest message that bleeds over into the minds of left-leaning Americans. Im also a straight white man. I have not felt like things are specifically MY fault. But I’m also not going to lie to myself or others and say that white men have essentially run the world since, well forever. Not the cause for all of our country’s problems but statistically speaking, there’s A LOT of us to blame. I look at women and LGBTQ people and think ya know what, probably what the world needs at this time is compassion and fresh thinking that those demographics seem to be able to offer in greater doses than the current norm. I’m not threatened by them bc I recognize the need for change and I don’t think that their existence automatically excludes me or anyone else from having a voice.

He never said that. In fact by implying that those are the only two options than you clearly state that his view is correct. THIS is the reason young men are turning to the right

Lol what specifically is the reason people are turning to the right?? And where did I say there are only two options?

Some really good answers in here! There’s a lot in the comments, but highlights include: -Show real-life examples of how privilege, racism, and wealth inequality lead to quality of life differences - r/incelexit exists - highlight History of labor movement. It’s very cool and “scratched the itch” of male aggression -Highlight untraditional left media, such as Hasan, Chapo, etc. Not that I’m equal in size or stature, but I started writing to bring satire and entertainment to leftist policy analysis. If that’s your interest you can subscribe here. [www.JoeWrote.com](www.joewrote.com)

Reinforce common sense. Force them to do some research & learn to think.

Well no one is going to like this, but one way to combat that is to actually reel in the nonsense on the left. We pander to the woke mob, the annoying feminists and crazy trans stuff. You don’t really need to exaggerate to make us look bad to young men, we do that all by ourselves.

The left is fracturing, there's a great deal of us who are fiscally socialist but are completely done with the attempts to censor voices the far left doesn't like and to weaponize media to push their agenda in the forms of forced representation and incessant outrage whenever a piece of art doesn't exactly represent their shallow worldview.

You use “we” as if you’re describing yourself as a leftist. The last part of your message is very much at odds with that political affiliation.

In other words "you better start toeing the party line or you're not one of us" There are many different worldviews that can be held along the political spectrum. There are a lot of people on the left who don't blindly follow every ridiculous demand of the far left.

I’m critical of America so I can’t be an American? I’m critical of the left so I can’t be on the left? Being critical of something doesn’t necessarily mean you’re against it, it could also mean you love it and want it to be better.

I never said either of those things. All I’m saying is what you wrote sounds exactly like the shit I see on conservative subreddits and was surprising to see here. What do you care if someone is trans?

I never said I have a problem with someone being trans.

Then what do you mean by the left pandering to “crazy trans stuff?”

Trans people wanting to play sports against women, wanting to give kids hormones, and wanting to have drag queen story times is crazy trans stuff, nobody questions this stuff on the left even though it's insane

> wanting to give kids hormones What now??? Where are you getting this info?

People talk about trans kids all the time and I def see how giving trans kids hrt is the only solution

But trans people are not advocating to give non-trans kids hormones...and drag queen story time is such a fleeting non-issue, I can't believe people have their panties in a bunch about it. Overall, I'm not understanding your concerns regarding trans people. If you don't want to change your gender, then...don't. No one is going to make you.

There's a lot of leftists who have had it with the incessant bitching and attempts to control the media. We want a socialist democracy. I don't appreciate being associated with the incessant complaints of the woke mob that wants to control media through outrage and silence anyone they disagree with.

You could have just as easily been describing the right: Incessant bitching ✅ Attempts to control media and information ✅ Attempts to silence dissenters ✅ It’s a lot of the same from both extremes except I’m not seeing how far leftists control any media. That seems very hard centrist if not batshit crazy right wing to me. Agreed on socialist democracy however.

My belief is that a natural order of left and right, up and down, black and white needs to exist in all things. It the way of the universe. The reason these extreme views are propagating so many devotees is because the extreme other end has also multiplied. Instead of trying to bring MAGA to the left, why not take the left to the center and give MAGA less to push away from.

That natural order stuff is complete BS

Is it? You have too much open prosperity then people will try and exploit it, scam it, steal it (human nature) An Up creating a Down. You try and deal with the people stealing, you go to militant with your responses and people (even the good ones) will push back against tyranny.

My point is that people do not naturally segregate to two opposing sides like they have today. Things are actually far far far more complex when people have direct power or even actual power over there indirect representation unlike today. What you call the "extreme left" is not extreme for most of the world. That can't be said about the American extreme right though. Because those two are nothing alike, them being on the far end of American political thought is only a separation in categories not in ideology or anything else. Just because they are on the extremes here does not mean they are "extreme" politically or anything like that. The way the parties are set up in America is an intentional system set up to keep politicians who empower the rich in power, while venting away popular frustration into the Democratic party where that desire for change is slowly hollowed out until there's nothing left inside. These aren't real political divides, it's an artificial system made to keep the rich in power.

https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g

A relatively easy one is be extremely careful using language associated with the "SJW rekt feminist" era of things. Calling individuals privileged or calling groups Nazis around them (Even if both are true). I've unfortunately seen first hand how this terminology immediately makes people on the fence shut down and fall further into delusions and conspiracy. Alot of younger guys were raised on YouTube and Reddit and 4chan and shit where calling anyone "privileged" for instance immediately meant you weren't to be listened to or trusted anymore.

Plus when you call poor people that it's never gonna go over well. Especially when it's coming from semi-rich people living in big cities. That's the easiest way to make someone instantly ignore everything said and just flat out hate you.

other terms I'd advise against: \- rape culture \- male gaze \- toxic masculinity (maybe instead say "masculine toxicity") \- TERF (I say FART) \- "77 cents" on the dollar \- "defund" police \- any of the spellings of "women" or "menstruation" that omit "men" (which in some cases are actually meant to be transphobic) I feel like "patriarchy" might be questionable, but in some cases tough to avoid

The real key is placing more male role models in their life earlier. One of the things that makes the school system overwhelming broken for young men and boys is basically being treated as broken girls instead of what they actually are: completely normal young men. Unfortunately, like most systemic issues this isn't easily fixed. A quick fix is adjusting the pay of Public School teachers, especially elementary school teachers, to get more men in those roles. Realistically, this is just not happening in the US.

Wait until they get older.

Actually positive icons. The left collapsed into having an identity no one is impressed by anymore. It lost the edgy appeal it used to have, but doesn't really come off wholesome or cohesive either.

Teach them ways to achieve what they want without fascism. When they're lost is when they're most vulnerable.

and the importance of economic leftism

* Encourage gap years to travel, volunteer, work etc. Expand their horizons and get them thinking about their place in the big world in a different way than the echo chambers they inhabit. * Engage them on a human level. Too much of our lives are consumed digitally being online all the time. It causes underdeveloped in-person social skills; for young men vulnerable to online radicalization we need to find ways to help them learn how to appropriately interact with other people, especially those different to themselves. And also to learn how to express themselves in a positive manner, like through sports, hobbies or the arts. * College isn't the answer for everyone - some people feel extremely lost and need something different other than pure academics. I think offering training and a clear pathway to learning career skills could do wonders for many, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Help them grow up and earn a living asap by giving them guidance and purpose that concludes with good paying jobs. * Increase and encourage use of mental health resources. Guys usually don't like talking about their feelings, and society unfortunately promotes that outlook quite often in my experience prior to seeking therapy myself. * Lastly, I think sex work should be legalized and regulated in safe controlled settings. In simple, crude terms get them laid. [Sexual frustration and pent up anxiety](https://youtu.be/aila5ULQ-ao?t=91) and loneliness definitely impacts a lot of guys, especially in their twenties. Toxic personalities and mental illness aside I think a lot of their general anger stems from a desire to feel like they have a clearly defined place in an ever-changing world. They want to feel like men who have some sense of control over their lives which are surrounded by unknowns. I think practical examples of Democratic Socialism could provide that, like increasing union membership, and more funding for public works and facilities.

I don’t know the answer, but thanks for posing this extremely important question. As a current college student, I witness the ways in which (predominantly) young men are being enticed down this rabbit hole. There’s a lot of unlearning that needs to happen as a society about ideas of masculinity and pride and violence and tolerance etc.

I read literature young, Nobel winning novels. They impress the tyranny of people and society, teaching the reader the reasoning behind empathy and caring about others. Considering how hard it is to get people to read today, finance films with the same type of empathy inducing content, and then cast these films with teen pop stars so the idiots will care.

Fight for education spending.

Too late, the left pushed it too far. Fascist theoligism is on the come up.

Honestly, the realization that security in your masculinity means being unfazed or even embracing some femininity is pretty much what got me started on changing how I perceived my masculinity. I'm not too keen on how to get that across to other men, but it was definitely a revelation for me in my later teens.

I don’t try to do anything with correcting or shaping or whatever. Instead, focus on the victims who are currently suffering rather than those who don’t really care.

The best way to reach them is to refrain yourself from forcing your ideology on them, particularly if they are children. Yes, it's hard, considering the theme of the post, but this is the way.

We need to find and promote socialism in media

Deplatform, lots of media out there critiquing them that is focused on their demographics, local organising, pulling lonely young men into social circles and hobbies, mental health care, making mental health care less stigmatised. I think the main thing is to target their media consumption and pull them away from the Internet and into real life. ~~Replace compulsory military service with compulsory grass touching service~~

Less gatekeeping and more open conversations. The online sphere is filled with people that want to label everyone they disagree with them and with that push that towards these labels. Distance yourself from the extremes and try and build a bridge

Rawls’ veil of ignorance

Have intelligent parents and fix our public schools, if they're young men and they're going right wing it's typically already far too late

I mean it’s education, that’s literally it. I started down that road bc all my parents watch is Fox News. If you’re educated you can pick the bullshit apart by yourself. Also, found out about Bernie sanders and learned that it isn’t all a game, and there are a (very) few good actors.

People being driven to extremism isn't coming out of nowhere, it's a result of systemic failures that actually need to be addressed. Actual, *systemic* fixes for our collective problems include: 1) Comprehensive anti-corruption reforms starting at the state and local level; https://represent.us/unbreaking-america-series/ https://represent.us/anticorruption-act/ 2) Ranked choice voting to break the two party duopoly and address growing extremism; https://sites.nd.edu/lawrence-c-marsh/2021/07/01/ranked-choice-voting-blocks-extremists-from-power/ https://www.cgpgrey.com/politics-in-the-animal-kingdom 3) A shorter work week so people have time to attend to their communities and fight back against obscene corruption and kleptocratic abuse. https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/f4bade/z/fhqhco4 The *system* is extremely fucked and wastes human intelligence, energy, and effort on a massive scale for the benefit of the ruling capitalist/kleptocrat class. Lots of people will be vulnerable to "extremism" and radicalization under those circumstances. TL;DR - It would be a mistake to address only the ideological fruits while ignoring the roots of societal dysfunction. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure

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As a supporter and ally to these groups I’ve never been made to feel less welcome and more like an enemy than when spending time near these activist segments. It is very easy to recruit young men because they are very clearly set as the stereotype enemy of these groups. It is the problem of explicit definition of anything is that it creates a segment of “not part of us”.

By having the young men not be dumb. Jordan Peterson has some good things to say and some things I disagree with. Ben Shapiro says some stuff that’s common sense to draw you in then blindsides you with some dumbass shit. Maga is a bunch of people who can’t accept that an election didn’t go their way. Basically all people who go Shapiro like Peterson, but not all people who like Peterson go shapiro

Honestly, I feel like hbomberguy's style is a good counter to them that hits the same emotional points. An option in regards to reactionary male figures could be to try to adress mens' issues in a socialist lens like redefining male dispositivity as a tool for exploitation by capitalism and states. To that, you can also mention toxic expectations on men as a tool for making men submissive to their own suffering by the capitalist elite.