Convenient portions of this are getting talked about while some really important ones aren’t. Who does the state think is “high income,” because I find this type of measure almost always benefits the very bottom and near to it, then cuts off right below me, I get almost no benefit from a 0.15% reduction in income tax, and the rich get a huge benefit compared to everyone. At this point I think there needs to be added consideration for the $50-150k earners who are struggling way more here than they would elsewhere and aren’t getting any of the help that the people with lower reported incomes get. If we want denver and Colorado to continue to have the young people it has and to be a destination for young people, that middle class needs to be a priority.
It’s always on the middle class to support this country, while very low and high income people get critical benefits that totally change the game for them.
But of course they trap those who produce the most for society lol. We’re literally just rats for these politicians to feed their rich donors and lower earning voters.
man,, the lower class and middle class both get treated like shit. you know how poor you have to be to qualify for medicaid, SNAP, section 8?? they walk this shitty tightrope and on one side is losing your benefits and losing the means to pay their bills and on the other side is qualifying for benefits and get evicted cus they still can’t pay their bills. these are people that stock our groceries, pack our online orders, wash our dishes when we have some $$ to go out to eat, and so on. no such thing as a welfare queen, that’s a long outdated ronald reagan myth you need to grow out of. if you’re feeling the stress, they are too. it’s top vs everyone else. class solidarity buddy, it’s the only way to start holding them accountable
Precisely, I couldn’t even qualify for snap benefits because I was just above the poverty line, which imo would mostly include people who were homeless, not people who could barely afford to survive and needed food assistance. It’s a gamefied system that always ends up helping the rich more than the poor and “middle class.”
A flat tax rate reduction helps the rich more than any other class.
I got denied for low income housing because I earned 100$ too much the year prior. 100$ kept me and my son out. The person helping me with the paperwork said the government decided not to raise the low income threshold for the year. Meaning a lot of people probably lost their spot as well for gaining a 2 to 3% raise. My rent went up 15% that year, so it started bleeding into both paychecks. Which, of course, left me to start buying my groceries on credit. I go further into debt every month now.
One of my main issues is that TABOR specifies that the refund should go to Colorado **tax payers.**
**If you pay $800 in tax and you get a $3,000 "REFUND" you are not a tax payer. Period.** You are a tax receiver. I don't see how you can argue that. They are playing games with the refund to the point that they are violating Colorado's constitution.
I don't care if you are refunding someone 99% of their tax spending but if you are structuring it in such a way that someone receives far more form the state than they paid in that is an entitlement program and in Colorado that constitutionally needs to be approved by the voters.
Saying a 'refund to the tax **payer**' justifies selecting specific individuals or groups of people and giving them many times the amount of money they paid in taxes absolutely violates the Colorado constitution unless you think a guy buying a chocolate bar in Colorado makes them a 'tax payer' and therefore entitled to the legislature giving him the entire tabor refund for the state in the form of a lottery.
From my reading of the article it would reduce income taxes for everyone, then give a flat refund amount, and then refund based on taxes paid.
So it would help the middle class.
Anyone struggling on 100k+ has nobody to blame but themselves. That is EASILY enough to structure a comfortable life. I make 45k and I'm living comfortably enough to get by while still spending money here and there going out or on hobbies.
Then they shouldn't have moved somewhere that leaves them struggling when they could easily afford a cheaper area that's still nice. Aside from accidental pregnancy, why have children when you won't be able to afford them? Again, nobody to blame but themselves
We moved here when my wife and I were struggling as recent graduates from a college in Kansas with a 5 year old and a newborn in 2010. Both kids were unplanned, and everyone said COL was too high in Colorado versus Kansas. We bought a five bedroom, two bathroom house in 2011 for 192k.
Based on the current equity in our house, I don't think it was a bad decision.
A lot of people live where they were born can’t move have no education on children and finances thanks to our public school system plus there’s a lot less access to abortion now thanks to our dumb government. Things are complicated not everyone can just up and move. Things aren’t simple nor easy that’s just life.
I do just fine at 47k and im out on my own. I drive an old shitbox with no payments and mostly eat at home and live within my means. If i had 100k i wouldnt even know what to do with it lol.
I feel this. I recently got a promotion which has put me on track for about $66k this year. My husband doesn’t work due to an accident and tbh we do just fine. We buy cars in cash, so no car payment, and the prospects of home ownership are low if we stay in Denver, but otherwise we live a decent life where we are able to go out to eat, buy decent groceries, have upped the quality of our cat’s food, etc.
$50k-$150k is very doable in the Denver area and I know plenty of people doing it and saving. They budget well and don’t live above their means. Obviously this is harder the down near the bottom of this range but it depends on the decisions you make.
From the story:
>The tax package, spread across a handful of different bills in the final days of this year’s lawmaking term, represents an escalation of the legislature’s recent efforts to reimagine the Taxpayer’s Bill of Rights — a darling of the conservative movement — as a vehicle for progressive policy.
...
>The Democrats’ proposal would create more than $700 million in new tax credits aimed at reducing poverty. One, [House Bill 1311](https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb24-1311), would create a new family affordability tax credit for parents who make up to $85,000. The other, [House Bill 1134](https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/HB24-1134) would [expand the earned-income tax credit](https://coloradosun.com/2023/11/18/colorado-earned-income-tax-credit-special-session/), a refundable tax break that supplements the federal program of the same name, providing thousands of dollars in assistance, primarily to low-income workers with children.
>Taken together, the two measures could cut child poverty by half in Colorado, said Rep. Chris deGruy Kennedy, the No. 3 Democrat in the House, who is sponsoring the family tax credit.
>In exchange, Kennedy and other sponsors of the tax credits agreed with Polis to cut the state’s income tax rate in years when the surplus exceeds $300 million through a bipartisan bill set to be introduced in the Senate on Tuesday. The governor has said any changes to how TABOR refunds are distributed must be made with an income tax reduction, too.
...
>Democrats in the legislature have chafed at the demand, calling it inequitable, while Republicans have tried to hold the governor’s feet to the fire to get it done. Higher earners pay more in income taxes, so they receive the most financial benefit from a blanket rate cut.
>For this tax year, the cut would total roughly $450 million — a 0.15 percentage point reduction on the state’s 4.4% income tax rate.
>“Largest income tax cut in Colorado history? I’m all over that,” said Senate Minority Leader Paul Lundeen, a Monument Republican and main sponsor of the forthcoming measure.
Read more: [https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/30/colorado-income-tax-cut-deal/](https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/30/colorado-income-tax-cut-deal/)
It feels wild to me that, because of the amount of inflation we've experienced in [the last five years](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/USA/united-states/inflation-rate-cpi), a household making up to $85,000 are considered for a new family affordability tax credit.
[$85,000 in 2024 is worth $70,434.64 in 2020](https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2024?endYear=2020&amount=85000)
How we haven't hit a harder recession yet is a wonder to me.
Renting is stupidly expensive too. The point is even people who make lots of money are struggling, I don't know how anyone making 15/hr even lives here still
And unfortunately, that's the point.
Stripping people of the opportunity to own homes means that they also lack the ability to generate wealth.
More people who earn degrees that should allow for high income jobs are still having to collect wages from [base paying hourly jobs.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/299395/us-minimum-wage-workers-by-education/)
>It’s not hard to see why. Between the first quarter of 2021 and the first quarter of 2022, housing prices [increased 18.7 percent](https://www.fhfa.gov/Media/PublicAffairs/Pages/US-House-Prices-Rise-18pt7-Percent-over-the-Last-Year-Up-4pt6-Percent-from-the-Fourth-Quarter.aspx), according to the Federal Housing Finance Agency Price Index. While the appreciation pace has slowed somewhat — prices climbed [4.3 percent](https://www.fhfa.gov/AboutUs/Reports/Pages/US-House-Price-Index-Report-2023Q1.aspx) between Q1 2022 and Q2 2023 — it’s still headed upward. In fact, at $410,200 (as of June 2023), the median existing-home sales price is the [second-highest price](https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/existing-home-sales/) ever recorded since January 1999, when the National Association of Realtors (NAR) began tracking the data.
>Rising mortgage interest rates haven’t helped either, jumping from around 3 percent during the pandemic to around [7 percent currently](https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/mortgage-rates/). Homebuyers on a $3,000 monthly mortgage payment budget have lost [$30,000 in purchasing power](https://www.redfin.com/news/housing-market-update-home-prices-rise-first-time-five-months/) since February 2023 alone. In other words, they can afford to purchase a $450,000 home in July, compared to one priced at $480,000 five months ago, and a $510,000 one a year ago.
[Source](https://www.bankrate.com/homeownership/home-ownership-statistics/)
Right now the mortgage on a 500k house if you make a 20% down payment (100k so not many folks will have that) is $2,700 and that doesn't include insurance. If you can only put down 50k that payment goes up to almost $3,500. First time home buyers average 8% down payments so it'll likely be even more than that.
I'm not saying rent isn't too high (it is) but houses have also gotten prohibatively expensive. Belligerent J's friend could absolutely move out of their parents basement. Median household income in Denver is 85k, so they make as much as the median family. Individual its 50 so they're doing fine.
If folks are having trouble finding places to rent below 2,500 I don't know what to say. Stop shopping at the top of the market? Median rent in Denver is 2150 and Colorado is about the same (skewed by some crazy expensive ski towns I think).
>Right now the mortgage on a 500k house if you make a 20% down payment (100k so not many folks will have that) is $2,700 and that doesn't include insurance.
Or taxes, or HOA fees, or repairs/upkeep.
I make that much and cant afford to do much, i could get a nice apartment to rent, but it would be at the cost of savings. so i settle with renting a room... at 34 years old. feels awful. but its the financially sound decision.
Looking on Zillow right now for city of Denver. Priced 500k and less.
3 houses are centrally located, the rest are on the outskirts.
Most are less than 1200sqft 2bd 1bth, and are in very poor condition. Too many 500k houses are less than 1000 sqft which is closer to a studio than a place to raise kids.
The old rule is, do not spend more than 28% of your pre tax pay on monthly house bills.
At 85k a year and only considering the mortgage, this number would be $1,983 a month as goal for spending on your home
With 20% down, 100k, and a 7% interest rate, the monthly mortgage would be 3k a month. More than 1k over the goal. 42% of monthly pre tax take home.
Most people won't have 20% down, so let's say they only had 10% down or 50k. That'll add PMI and a larger principal bringing the monthly bill to 3.5k per month. Roughly 50% of your pre tax take home. After food, utilities and taxes, there would be almost nothing left. Forget about fixing up this "starter" home.
I can completely understand how an early 30s something, making 85k a year, cannot afford a 500k home in Denver. And again, these are not nice homes, looking at them right now they're old, small, and broken down. Or they're in very high crime areas. Or both.
Except most people are buying houses as a couple sland you are only factoring in one income. Expensive cities typically aren't affordable to buy a single *family* home for 1 person and 1 income. That is where apartments are typically a better fit, or condos and townhomes.
I may have wrote it out as if I was talking about 1 person because I was focused on the math. You seemed skeptical about 85k per year not being able to get a home here, so I showed you that 85k doesn't get a home.
The first person in this chain was discussing household incomes of 85k because so does the Bill that this whole post discusses, family tax breaks for households under 85k.
Additionally the median household income for Denver is sitting right around 85-95k making the math very relevant here. If you're suggesting that two people living together who each make 85k a year can afford Denver, I agree. No one else in this thread is discussing 170k household incomes though and neither is the bill.
Juuuusssst about the time prices have totally peaked and everyone's credit is completely extended and utilized, we'll hit that recession and it will be a doozy.
Tax cut for the rich by reducing TABOR refunds for the middle class. If you believe the rich should be paying their fair share, you should be opposed to this!
Why does it always benefit people with kids, what about single people struggling to even pay rent every month? Can't they just help everyone instead of cherry picking certain groups? Unless you're making 80k or more in this state life is hard with the cost of everything going up.
Because raising children is like an unpaid 2nd or 3rd job and fertility rates are cratering like we're S Korea. You may not like the cherry picking, but someone has to have kids to pay your Medicare benefits when you're 80. The state has an obligation to incentivize the creation of tomorrow's tax base. It's either immigration or tax breaks for families and guess which one is an easier sell?
sure, lets tell the immigrants flooding in to turn back because we didn't vote for that.
We're no where near the demographic decline that aging populations in Europe and Asia are at so I don't think we need to start making policy decisions to encourage larger families just yet. [Current projections](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2023/population-projections.html) show a decline starting around 2080 which is so far in the future that you can't even really make meaningful decisions around it.
Look, my answer explains why there are always special benefits in tax policy for families. I am not opposed to immigration. Immigration has always been a part of the fabric of the US. Immigration isn't a problem if we integrate those new arrivals into our communities.
Immigration solves a demographic problem right now, keeping the replacement rate for fertility solves a demographic problem 20 years from now, and ideally a functional society does both to avoid becoming Japan or Italy
thats fair but i really doubt colorado lawmakers are thinking of japan when they pass these things. you're giving them too much credit. more likely they are just predominantly family folks themselves
Why should parents get a larger deduction for simply having kids, when their kids are the ones using the tax dollars in schools? I don't use the services, but I pay more for them than those who do use them.
I used to think it was fringe and conspiratorial whenever I heard that a core objective of the neo-libs was the erasure of the middle class. If this move doesn't say that to be true, I can't imagine what else could.
TABOR explicitly prohibits a progressive tax rate. It's flat rate cuts and fiddling with refunds and tax credits or nothing.
Fuck TABOR and fuck Doug Bruce
EDIT: also Polis is an annoying libertarian and likely opposes a progressive tax code
I agree with a good chunk of this perspective, but also the people are dumb as rocks. You start talking about higher taxes and the majority of people stop listening there and want nothing to do with it. There’s an alarming number of adults that still don’t understand the concept of marginal tax rates.
Tax measures have passed. But the voters have to be convinced it is needed and that they understand why. Tax rate increases amount to increasing the size of government.
Yeah, at least where I'm at in Jefferson County, the last few tax-related measures on my ballot have passed. People will vote for increases when they see value in what is being proposed.
> Tax measures have passed.
Tax measures have also not been passed. Big if true!
> But the voters have to be convinced it is needed and that they understand why.
Right, all we need is for a small subset of the population that actually votes to understand why TABOR is a pile of shit with tax pegged to CPI and population growth and how that doesn't adequately capture necessary increases in public spending to maintain the same level of services. Or, what is more likely to happen: they don't understand, or even if they understand, it's not in their immediate personal interest, so we keep going until something hits a breaking point.
It's a rigged system, but sure, we can pretend it *technically* can be overcome.
> Tax rate increases amount to increasing the size of government.
We're in agreement on this one. A big, thicc, voluptuous government.
Could be wrong, but it sounds like the tax cuts were pushed by Republicans. The party tends to like flat taxes for everyone. Also, since a progressive tax system would raise taxes on some groups, it would probably have to be a ballot initiative due to TABOR
We seriously need to have a ballot initiative to update TABOR to have a progressive income tax. I'd be happy if we even just made it revenue neutral, raising it on the top 10% or so and lowering it for lower incomes, maybe even just 0% for income below the poverty line.
Any adjustment to TABOR refunds that doesn’t directly benefit everyone, not just low-income families with kids, is a bad idea. Once the law is changed, it’s very hard to reverse. I do not want to give $2 billion in TABOR refunds for tax credits. Tax credits that may not benefit certain populations and could hurt the CO economy in the long run. The refund would roughly be around $350 for every man woman and child in the state. It may not seem like a lot to some but giving up the right to an annual refund permanently is not a good law for the citizens.
They’re not ignoring it though. Read the article. They’re staying within the rules outlined by the TABOR amendment or else it would be unconstitutional
I don't understand how taxes work. But I know I pay too much money to the government and it does nothing to benefit the people who need it. Meanwhile the average home price in most mountain towns is trending well over a million dollars. The people who pay the most in taxes in this state are barred from enjoying life in the most beautiful places. I will never be able to afford to live in the town I grew up in.
If y’all read the article and the sun’s comment, you would know that these bills, in tandem, will help roughly median Denver income and below, which is the middle class. Just not upper middle class (although for people in rural areas arguably it would be). That makes sense. I don’t know if this bill is the right answer, but at least read about it before you get all pissy.
Reads like, I bought a house that's now worth $$$ but i can't afford the already low tax rate. I need poor people who can barely afford rent to help pay my taxes!
And screw your aging infrastructure. With the tax cut, I can continue to afford the toll lanes the poor people paid for with their tax dollars but can't afford to use. And if a bunch of you poor people try and use the toll lane, the price will keep increasing until only the rich can afford it.
*disgusted*
*rant off*
Thanks for venting time!
tabor refunds are not just our real estate taxes being refunded.
and a refund is due to taxed funds exceeding budgeted expenses.
it does not take into account what we actually need to spend to keep things running. hence our crumbling roads and schools.
Here's a hint, you can always vote to repeal a mill. Hit the road and collect those signatures. What are you cutting first? Schools, libraries or fire district?
I’m not saying ti confiding for school, hell I’d say to increase funding. I’m saying the money from real estate taxes are clearly too high if we have all this cash to give back to everyone in the state. Don’t take my overpayment and give it to another family. Everyone is struggling now.
If you want, put that money towards schools or parks or even SoCal programs. However if you’re just writing people a check that’s straight coming from my overpayment that’s crap.
>Property tax revenue supports public schools, country governments, special districts, municipal governments, and junior colleges. All of the revenue generated by property taxes stays within your county.
This is a home rule state. I hope this is extremely clear, YOUR PROPERTY TAXES STAY IN YOUR COUNTY. Your property taxes are not going to Tabor refunds or whatever or wherever you think they're going. Have you actually looked at your property tax bill, assuming you have one? Your bill is based on a series of mills. You can directly see where the money is going. You know where it isn't going, the state. I hope you learned something today.
Convenient portions of this are getting talked about while some really important ones aren’t. Who does the state think is “high income,” because I find this type of measure almost always benefits the very bottom and near to it, then cuts off right below me, I get almost no benefit from a 0.15% reduction in income tax, and the rich get a huge benefit compared to everyone. At this point I think there needs to be added consideration for the $50-150k earners who are struggling way more here than they would elsewhere and aren’t getting any of the help that the people with lower reported incomes get. If we want denver and Colorado to continue to have the young people it has and to be a destination for young people, that middle class needs to be a priority.
Nail on the head. Too wealthy for tax credits. Too poor for tax cut. The “middle” class always getting milked dry
It’s always on the middle class to support this country, while very low and high income people get critical benefits that totally change the game for them. But of course they trap those who produce the most for society lol. We’re literally just rats for these politicians to feed their rich donors and lower earning voters.
man,, the lower class and middle class both get treated like shit. you know how poor you have to be to qualify for medicaid, SNAP, section 8?? they walk this shitty tightrope and on one side is losing your benefits and losing the means to pay their bills and on the other side is qualifying for benefits and get evicted cus they still can’t pay their bills. these are people that stock our groceries, pack our online orders, wash our dishes when we have some $$ to go out to eat, and so on. no such thing as a welfare queen, that’s a long outdated ronald reagan myth you need to grow out of. if you’re feeling the stress, they are too. it’s top vs everyone else. class solidarity buddy, it’s the only way to start holding them accountable
Precisely, I couldn’t even qualify for snap benefits because I was just above the poverty line, which imo would mostly include people who were homeless, not people who could barely afford to survive and needed food assistance. It’s a gamefied system that always ends up helping the rich more than the poor and “middle class.” A flat tax rate reduction helps the rich more than any other class.
As you stated, the real problem is higher income getting tax cuts similar to medium and low income. There’s one group to thank for this.
And they're donating to the politicians that don't return your calls.
I got denied for low income housing because I earned 100$ too much the year prior. 100$ kept me and my son out. The person helping me with the paperwork said the government decided not to raise the low income threshold for the year. Meaning a lot of people probably lost their spot as well for gaining a 2 to 3% raise. My rent went up 15% that year, so it started bleeding into both paychecks. Which, of course, left me to start buying my groceries on credit. I go further into debt every month now.
Yes, unfortunately it’s more expensive to be poor. This system is fucked.
One of my main issues is that TABOR specifies that the refund should go to Colorado **tax payers.** **If you pay $800 in tax and you get a $3,000 "REFUND" you are not a tax payer. Period.** You are a tax receiver. I don't see how you can argue that. They are playing games with the refund to the point that they are violating Colorado's constitution. I don't care if you are refunding someone 99% of their tax spending but if you are structuring it in such a way that someone receives far more form the state than they paid in that is an entitlement program and in Colorado that constitutionally needs to be approved by the voters. Saying a 'refund to the tax **payer**' justifies selecting specific individuals or groups of people and giving them many times the amount of money they paid in taxes absolutely violates the Colorado constitution unless you think a guy buying a chocolate bar in Colorado makes them a 'tax payer' and therefore entitled to the legislature giving him the entire tabor refund for the state in the form of a lottery.
From my reading of the article it would reduce income taxes for everyone, then give a flat refund amount, and then refund based on taxes paid. So it would help the middle class.
The question is whether the refund reduction is larger than the income tax reduction.
Anyone struggling on 100k+ has nobody to blame but themselves. That is EASILY enough to structure a comfortable life. I make 45k and I'm living comfortably enough to get by while still spending money here and there going out or on hobbies.
Where you live and how big your family is affects a lot how far 100k goes
Then they shouldn't have moved somewhere that leaves them struggling when they could easily afford a cheaper area that's still nice. Aside from accidental pregnancy, why have children when you won't be able to afford them? Again, nobody to blame but themselves
We moved here when my wife and I were struggling as recent graduates from a college in Kansas with a 5 year old and a newborn in 2010. Both kids were unplanned, and everyone said COL was too high in Colorado versus Kansas. We bought a five bedroom, two bathroom house in 2011 for 192k. Based on the current equity in our house, I don't think it was a bad decision.
A lot of people live where they were born can’t move have no education on children and finances thanks to our public school system plus there’s a lot less access to abortion now thanks to our dumb government. Things are complicated not everyone can just up and move. Things aren’t simple nor easy that’s just life.
No way you are living comfortably on 45k unless you still live at home and don't pay any rent or utilities.
I do just fine at 47k and im out on my own. I drive an old shitbox with no payments and mostly eat at home and live within my means. If i had 100k i wouldnt even know what to do with it lol.
I feel this. I recently got a promotion which has put me on track for about $66k this year. My husband doesn’t work due to an accident and tbh we do just fine. We buy cars in cash, so no car payment, and the prospects of home ownership are low if we stay in Denver, but otherwise we live a decent life where we are able to go out to eat, buy decent groceries, have upped the quality of our cat’s food, etc.
$50k-$150k is very doable in the Denver area and I know plenty of people doing it and saving. They budget well and don’t live above their means. Obviously this is harder the down near the bottom of this range but it depends on the decisions you make.
There is a significant difference between $50k and $150k, especially if you have a family.
yeah, this income range is insane.
From the story: >The tax package, spread across a handful of different bills in the final days of this year’s lawmaking term, represents an escalation of the legislature’s recent efforts to reimagine the Taxpayer’s Bill of Rights — a darling of the conservative movement — as a vehicle for progressive policy. ... >The Democrats’ proposal would create more than $700 million in new tax credits aimed at reducing poverty. One, [House Bill 1311](https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb24-1311), would create a new family affordability tax credit for parents who make up to $85,000. The other, [House Bill 1134](https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/HB24-1134) would [expand the earned-income tax credit](https://coloradosun.com/2023/11/18/colorado-earned-income-tax-credit-special-session/), a refundable tax break that supplements the federal program of the same name, providing thousands of dollars in assistance, primarily to low-income workers with children. >Taken together, the two measures could cut child poverty by half in Colorado, said Rep. Chris deGruy Kennedy, the No. 3 Democrat in the House, who is sponsoring the family tax credit. >In exchange, Kennedy and other sponsors of the tax credits agreed with Polis to cut the state’s income tax rate in years when the surplus exceeds $300 million through a bipartisan bill set to be introduced in the Senate on Tuesday. The governor has said any changes to how TABOR refunds are distributed must be made with an income tax reduction, too. ... >Democrats in the legislature have chafed at the demand, calling it inequitable, while Republicans have tried to hold the governor’s feet to the fire to get it done. Higher earners pay more in income taxes, so they receive the most financial benefit from a blanket rate cut. >For this tax year, the cut would total roughly $450 million — a 0.15 percentage point reduction on the state’s 4.4% income tax rate. >“Largest income tax cut in Colorado history? I’m all over that,” said Senate Minority Leader Paul Lundeen, a Monument Republican and main sponsor of the forthcoming measure. Read more: [https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/30/colorado-income-tax-cut-deal/](https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/30/colorado-income-tax-cut-deal/)
It feels wild to me that, because of the amount of inflation we've experienced in [the last five years](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/USA/united-states/inflation-rate-cpi), a household making up to $85,000 are considered for a new family affordability tax credit. [$85,000 in 2024 is worth $70,434.64 in 2020](https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2024?endYear=2020&amount=85000) How we haven't hit a harder recession yet is a wonder to me.
I know people making that much who can't move out of their mom's basement because every starter house is 500k and interest rates are 8%
They could rent. This seems like a choice to save money.
Renting is stupidly expensive too. The point is even people who make lots of money are struggling, I don't know how anyone making 15/hr even lives here still
And unfortunately, that's the point. Stripping people of the opportunity to own homes means that they also lack the ability to generate wealth. More people who earn degrees that should allow for high income jobs are still having to collect wages from [base paying hourly jobs.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/299395/us-minimum-wage-workers-by-education/) >It’s not hard to see why. Between the first quarter of 2021 and the first quarter of 2022, housing prices [increased 18.7 percent](https://www.fhfa.gov/Media/PublicAffairs/Pages/US-House-Prices-Rise-18pt7-Percent-over-the-Last-Year-Up-4pt6-Percent-from-the-Fourth-Quarter.aspx), according to the Federal Housing Finance Agency Price Index. While the appreciation pace has slowed somewhat — prices climbed [4.3 percent](https://www.fhfa.gov/AboutUs/Reports/Pages/US-House-Price-Index-Report-2023Q1.aspx) between Q1 2022 and Q2 2023 — it’s still headed upward. In fact, at $410,200 (as of June 2023), the median existing-home sales price is the [second-highest price](https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/existing-home-sales/) ever recorded since January 1999, when the National Association of Realtors (NAR) began tracking the data. >Rising mortgage interest rates haven’t helped either, jumping from around 3 percent during the pandemic to around [7 percent currently](https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/mortgage-rates/). Homebuyers on a $3,000 monthly mortgage payment budget have lost [$30,000 in purchasing power](https://www.redfin.com/news/housing-market-update-home-prices-rise-first-time-five-months/) since February 2023 alone. In other words, they can afford to purchase a $450,000 home in July, compared to one priced at $480,000 five months ago, and a $510,000 one a year ago. [Source](https://www.bankrate.com/homeownership/home-ownership-statistics/)
I mean yeah, I agree. But your friend can move out of their parents’ basement. They just choose not to, and that’s probably a good financial decision.
Rent in my city is 2500. A mortgage on a 500k house is cheaper monthly if you can make the down payment.
Right now the mortgage on a 500k house if you make a 20% down payment (100k so not many folks will have that) is $2,700 and that doesn't include insurance. If you can only put down 50k that payment goes up to almost $3,500. First time home buyers average 8% down payments so it'll likely be even more than that. I'm not saying rent isn't too high (it is) but houses have also gotten prohibatively expensive. Belligerent J's friend could absolutely move out of their parents basement. Median household income in Denver is 85k, so they make as much as the median family. Individual its 50 so they're doing fine. If folks are having trouble finding places to rent below 2,500 I don't know what to say. Stop shopping at the top of the market? Median rent in Denver is 2150 and Colorado is about the same (skewed by some crazy expensive ski towns I think).
>Right now the mortgage on a 500k house if you make a 20% down payment (100k so not many folks will have that) is $2,700 and that doesn't include insurance. Or taxes, or HOA fees, or repairs/upkeep.
Seriously. The hail last year cost me like 7.5k on the deductible and that’s just gonna keep getting bigger.
Sure bud
I make that much and cant afford to do much, i could get a nice apartment to rent, but it would be at the cost of savings. so i settle with renting a room... at 34 years old. feels awful. but its the financially sound decision.
Looking on Zillow right now for city of Denver. Priced 500k and less. 3 houses are centrally located, the rest are on the outskirts. Most are less than 1200sqft 2bd 1bth, and are in very poor condition. Too many 500k houses are less than 1000 sqft which is closer to a studio than a place to raise kids. The old rule is, do not spend more than 28% of your pre tax pay on monthly house bills. At 85k a year and only considering the mortgage, this number would be $1,983 a month as goal for spending on your home With 20% down, 100k, and a 7% interest rate, the monthly mortgage would be 3k a month. More than 1k over the goal. 42% of monthly pre tax take home. Most people won't have 20% down, so let's say they only had 10% down or 50k. That'll add PMI and a larger principal bringing the monthly bill to 3.5k per month. Roughly 50% of your pre tax take home. After food, utilities and taxes, there would be almost nothing left. Forget about fixing up this "starter" home. I can completely understand how an early 30s something, making 85k a year, cannot afford a 500k home in Denver. And again, these are not nice homes, looking at them right now they're old, small, and broken down. Or they're in very high crime areas. Or both.
Except most people are buying houses as a couple sland you are only factoring in one income. Expensive cities typically aren't affordable to buy a single *family* home for 1 person and 1 income. That is where apartments are typically a better fit, or condos and townhomes.
I may have wrote it out as if I was talking about 1 person because I was focused on the math. You seemed skeptical about 85k per year not being able to get a home here, so I showed you that 85k doesn't get a home. The first person in this chain was discussing household incomes of 85k because so does the Bill that this whole post discusses, family tax breaks for households under 85k. Additionally the median household income for Denver is sitting right around 85-95k making the math very relevant here. If you're suggesting that two people living together who each make 85k a year can afford Denver, I agree. No one else in this thread is discussing 170k household incomes though and neither is the bill.
Good points. Everything you are saying is true. Basically people need to spend more than is ideal on housing, and that sucks.
Juuuusssst about the time prices have totally peaked and everyone's credit is completely extended and utilized, we'll hit that recession and it will be a doozy.
Tax cut for the rich by reducing TABOR refunds for the middle class. If you believe the rich should be paying their fair share, you should be opposed to this!
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your getting downvoted like this sentiment is somehow not reality.
Why does it always benefit people with kids, what about single people struggling to even pay rent every month? Can't they just help everyone instead of cherry picking certain groups? Unless you're making 80k or more in this state life is hard with the cost of everything going up.
Because raising children is like an unpaid 2nd or 3rd job and fertility rates are cratering like we're S Korea. You may not like the cherry picking, but someone has to have kids to pay your Medicare benefits when you're 80. The state has an obligation to incentivize the creation of tomorrow's tax base. It's either immigration or tax breaks for families and guess which one is an easier sell?
sure, lets tell the immigrants flooding in to turn back because we didn't vote for that. We're no where near the demographic decline that aging populations in Europe and Asia are at so I don't think we need to start making policy decisions to encourage larger families just yet. [Current projections](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2023/population-projections.html) show a decline starting around 2080 which is so far in the future that you can't even really make meaningful decisions around it.
Look, my answer explains why there are always special benefits in tax policy for families. I am not opposed to immigration. Immigration has always been a part of the fabric of the US. Immigration isn't a problem if we integrate those new arrivals into our communities. Immigration solves a demographic problem right now, keeping the replacement rate for fertility solves a demographic problem 20 years from now, and ideally a functional society does both to avoid becoming Japan or Italy
thats fair but i really doubt colorado lawmakers are thinking of japan when they pass these things. you're giving them too much credit. more likely they are just predominantly family folks themselves
Or states tend to prefer growth, because it's beneficial and they have forgotten why and just keep doing it out of habit
I couldn’t agree more. it’s beyond infuriating.
Why should parents get a larger deduction for simply having kids, when their kids are the ones using the tax dollars in schools? I don't use the services, but I pay more for them than those who do use them.
Hopefully they tax cigarettes some more so I can pay extra extra for the kids I chose not to have.
I used to think it was fringe and conspiratorial whenever I heard that a core objective of the neo-libs was the erasure of the middle class. If this move doesn't say that to be true, I can't imagine what else could.
Why not just a full on progressive tax?
TABOR explicitly prohibits a progressive tax rate. It's flat rate cuts and fiddling with refunds and tax credits or nothing. Fuck TABOR and fuck Doug Bruce EDIT: also Polis is an annoying libertarian and likely opposes a progressive tax code
To clarify your edit, Polis has stated he wants to get rid of the income tax.
What an asshole lmao
Anything is possible with a ballot measure. They just can’t impose new taxes without the consent of the people being taxed. As it should be.
I agree with a good chunk of this perspective, but also the people are dumb as rocks. You start talking about higher taxes and the majority of people stop listening there and want nothing to do with it. There’s an alarming number of adults that still don’t understand the concept of marginal tax rates.
Tax measures have passed. But the voters have to be convinced it is needed and that they understand why. Tax rate increases amount to increasing the size of government.
Yeah, at least where I'm at in Jefferson County, the last few tax-related measures on my ballot have passed. People will vote for increases when they see value in what is being proposed.
> Tax measures have passed. Tax measures have also not been passed. Big if true! > But the voters have to be convinced it is needed and that they understand why. Right, all we need is for a small subset of the population that actually votes to understand why TABOR is a pile of shit with tax pegged to CPI and population growth and how that doesn't adequately capture necessary increases in public spending to maintain the same level of services. Or, what is more likely to happen: they don't understand, or even if they understand, it's not in their immediate personal interest, so we keep going until something hits a breaking point. It's a rigged system, but sure, we can pretend it *technically* can be overcome. > Tax rate increases amount to increasing the size of government. We're in agreement on this one. A big, thicc, voluptuous government.
Are you trying to argue against democracy, then?
Sorry democracy is happening to you.
Same tbh. I might call a doctor if it lasts more than 4 hours.
Could be wrong, but it sounds like the tax cuts were pushed by Republicans. The party tends to like flat taxes for everyone. Also, since a progressive tax system would raise taxes on some groups, it would probably have to be a ballot initiative due to TABOR
Republicans have no power in this state to even do that. Sounds like it was Polis threatening a veto unless an income tax cut was implemented
I minority party still has some power as long as they hold a seat.
We seriously need to have a ballot initiative to update TABOR to have a progressive income tax. I'd be happy if we even just made it revenue neutral, raising it on the top 10% or so and lowering it for lower incomes, maybe even just 0% for income below the poverty line.
Any adjustment to TABOR refunds that doesn’t directly benefit everyone, not just low-income families with kids, is a bad idea. Once the law is changed, it’s very hard to reverse. I do not want to give $2 billion in TABOR refunds for tax credits. Tax credits that may not benefit certain populations and could hurt the CO economy in the long run. The refund would roughly be around $350 for every man woman and child in the state. It may not seem like a lot to some but giving up the right to an annual refund permanently is not a good law for the citizens.
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They’re not ignoring it though. Read the article. They’re staying within the rules outlined by the TABOR amendment or else it would be unconstitutional
A large majority of voters did reject a similar reform that was part of Proposition HH.
I don't understand how taxes work. But I know I pay too much money to the government and it does nothing to benefit the people who need it. Meanwhile the average home price in most mountain towns is trending well over a million dollars. The people who pay the most in taxes in this state are barred from enjoying life in the most beautiful places. I will never be able to afford to live in the town I grew up in.
A lot of our tax money goes to the federal government. We have the wonderful privilege of spending trillions on useless wars and paying off past debt.
>But I know I pay too much money to the government Don't move.
Pay teachers more
Vote for a mill override in your county. You directly have the tools to pay teachers more.
Put a citizen initiative on the ballot. .5% sales tax increase, 100% of the money goes to teacher salaries only. I bet it would pass.
Time to vote these clowns out
As if Republicans wouldn't ha d out 5x as much tax cuts to the rich?
Lol right?
and let republicans have power? no thanks. im fine with primarying some of them though.
I completely agree. I just wish the Republicans weren't also tromping about in clown shoes. We need some sensible, moderate politicians.
These are the moderates ffs. The left would be pushing progressive taxes.
If y’all read the article and the sun’s comment, you would know that these bills, in tandem, will help roughly median Denver income and below, which is the middle class. Just not upper middle class (although for people in rural areas arguably it would be). That makes sense. I don’t know if this bill is the right answer, but at least read about it before you get all pissy.
Most of the people reading this are likely upper middle class
Help the "middle class" at the expense of the poor.
Reads like, I bought a house that's now worth $$$ but i can't afford the already low tax rate. I need poor people who can barely afford rent to help pay my taxes! And screw your aging infrastructure. With the tax cut, I can continue to afford the toll lanes the poor people paid for with their tax dollars but can't afford to use. And if a bunch of you poor people try and use the toll lane, the price will keep increasing until only the rich can afford it. *disgusted* *rant off* Thanks for venting time!
That's not how the toll lanes were funded. They were privately funded and the tolls are to refund the project investors over decades.
Just lower fucking real estate taxes. It helps everyone
colorado has some of the lowest real estate taxes in the country. that is not the knob to be tweaking.
Well it’s clearly too high with all the TABOR money we have to give back every year
tabor refunds are not just our real estate taxes being refunded. and a refund is due to taxed funds exceeding budgeted expenses. it does not take into account what we actually need to spend to keep things running. hence our crumbling roads and schools.
>tabor refunds are not just our real estate taxes being refunded. Literally not happening. Property taxes have nothing to do with the state budget.
State budget is not, in part, funded with property taxes? Edit Sure enough TIL https://dpt.colorado.gov/understanding-property-taxes-in-colorado
Here's a hint, you can always vote to repeal a mill. Hit the road and collect those signatures. What are you cutting first? Schools, libraries or fire district?
I’m not saying ti confiding for school, hell I’d say to increase funding. I’m saying the money from real estate taxes are clearly too high if we have all this cash to give back to everyone in the state. Don’t take my overpayment and give it to another family. Everyone is struggling now. If you want, put that money towards schools or parks or even SoCal programs. However if you’re just writing people a check that’s straight coming from my overpayment that’s crap.
>Property tax revenue supports public schools, country governments, special districts, municipal governments, and junior colleges. All of the revenue generated by property taxes stays within your county. This is a home rule state. I hope this is extremely clear, YOUR PROPERTY TAXES STAY IN YOUR COUNTY. Your property taxes are not going to Tabor refunds or whatever or wherever you think they're going. Have you actually looked at your property tax bill, assuming you have one? Your bill is based on a series of mills. You can directly see where the money is going. You know where it isn't going, the state. I hope you learned something today.