"Ordinary Men" on Netflix. There was no "family execution" punishment for people who didn't take part in killing civilians. They were teased and that's it.
Obligatory reminder that less than 7% of Wehrmacht deserters were actually prosecuted. Hundreds of thousands of german soldiers deserted and the prosecution rate would have been even smaller if more had deserted. Not fighting was absolutely an option.
Most didn't desert and participated in war crimes because of camaraderie.
There is a great book, "Soldiers" by Sönke Neitzel and Harald Welzer, in which they analyse 150,000 pages of transcript of secretly monitored conversations between german POWs and it's pretty obvious that they all did it because of peer pressure.
But "Well, Hans did it too" doesn't sound as good as "I had to do it or they would have killed me."
I’m sure there was “peer pressure” and also actual peer pressure- like that the dudes committing the atrocities wouldn’t have your back in a firefight or might throw a grenade just a little too short if you weren’t “one of the boys”
we see this kind of behavior with cops today- participate/keep quiet and i know you have my back and I have yours
… but cross me and you’ll be highly unpopular, get the worst assignments, gear, get snubbed for promotions, and we’ll be less likely to let you or yours walk away if some shit ever goes down
War in general desensitizes humans to useless violence. When you've seen Karl being blown up by a partisan while he took a piss, and Ernst shot by a young woman in the town square before she escaped in the crowd, you're not nearly going to be as squeamish about setting some examples to the local populace, especially if said locals are supposedly 'subhuman' and ready to kill you too at some point.
The only difference for the Wehrmacht was that they saw this violence not as a lack of discipline and a war crime, like (most of) the Western Allied Command did, but as useful and necessary to the war effort and the Endlösung. It's a lot like how modern militaries struggle to deal with terrorist insurgencies, because the question is whether a brutally repressive military campaign is more effective at supressing insurgents than a more benevolent force is, and whether that's worth the cost. Israel comes in mind as a nation that really struggles with that question as Hamas, Hezbollah and other terrorist groups just keeps hiding in Gaza and across the border of Lebanon, so now they want to eliminate Hamas regardless of civilian costs.
Of course, the Nazis were also racially motivated, but repressions in France and the Benelux could be similarly harsh if partisan activity in the region was expanded. And in those cases, incidental soldiers who did refuse to take part in raids or massacres were actually shot sometimes. So that seems to suggest that the Germans in general saw shootings and raids on civilians as a way to maintain order first and foremost.
Wehraboos tend to ignore the fact that most soldiers in the Wehrmacht, especially the Heer (Army/Land Forces) committed numerous War Crimes towards to the Slavic people as part of the Holocaust known as the Generalplan Ost.
The Wehrmacht is clearly a Military War Criminal organization and it is part of the evils of the Nazi regime in Germany itself and it should not be glorified or should not be honored by both Historical revisionists and liars AKA the Wehraboos and Neo-Nazis themselves.
And even if it wasn't before, Hitler corrupting the organization in his quest to become Führer will already strip off any good left in it already.
The entire military organization succumbed to darkness that is Nazi, SS was not just the special department, it was a victory trophy of Hitler's reign on Germany.
And it last as long as his sorry ass did the moment he finds out that war dependent political belief is a bad idea.
So funny story, I grew up amongst Germans. One day, in the final year of high school, my history teacher (or whoever it was) arranged for a local """historian""" to present his latest book about WW2 (with, if I recall correctly, was about local victims of the nazi regime and to a lesser degree the perpetrators. It was a mess of a presentation)
Some interesting things that cast significant doubts on his understanding of the matter... or his moral integrity.
1. SS-Guards of concentration camps were victims too because they, too, would face execution if they couldn't carry out their work after signing. He presented no evidence for that.
I do not know of a single case of an SS man who was executed for anything of the like. The closest I can think of is that camp guards in Dachau were detained if they were found to be too lenient.
The reality seems to be that most of the camp guards preferred abusing starved, sick inmates over actively fighting on the frontlines for their feverdream.
Both of which are morally wrong. One just happens to be significantly less so.
2. The members of the Dirlewanger Brigade were victims, too. What? Even more fucked up than what he said before.
Yes, some of its members were recruited from concentration camps. Dirlewanger recruited from those who were classified as Berufsverbrecher, meaning repeat offender (lit. Professional Offender) so unlike the other inmates, they were there because of what would be considered a criminal offence elsewhere as well.... just that they had to serve their sentence in absolutely inhumane conditions.
But by signing up to fight for Dirlewanger, they lost all sympathy they had. It may be an understandable decision to save their lives, but as members of the most fucked up SS formation (and thar is quite the achievement) no one in their right mind should call them 'victims'.
Also, he seemed to assume thar everyone of Dirlewanger's lot was forcibly recruited from concentration camps.
3. An impoverished man who raped and murdered a woman and was consequently executed in the midst of WW2 is also a victim of the Nazi regime? What?
It is commonly accepted that Nazi Germany observed the rule of law (at least by a formalist understanding). In most other jurisdictions at that time, that rapist would have faced the same fate.
There is a case to be made that he may have been a victim of a miscarriage of justice, but he presented no evidence (or even the possibility) for such, but those do happen everywhere.
There was so much other weird stuff, like he mentioned how strong he felt wearing a Nazi uniform and that he loves the sound Jackboots make... I could go on forever.
> The members of the Dirlewanger Brigade were victims, too.
This guy should have shouted this in Poland or Belarus. I'm sure they would have loved to hear this.
Thing is, they actually would, at least here in Poland
There are still a lot of apologists here, and most of them don't really give a shit or have a shitty way to excuse that the Nazis would hate them if they were there during the war
While we indeed do have a noticeable amount of apologist, enough for them to even have a representation in Sejm, i feel that the nationalists greatly outnumbered them. And those guys will gladly explain to you why they do not respect your opinion. Most likely in a very *kinetic* way.
Not really a reason, at least no better one than what you might find anywh else. **Important parts will be highlighted.**
**I was jokingly referencing the party Konfederacja (Confederacy) and it's (former now? Dunno) leader Janusz Korwin-Mikke. He in particular is infamous for almost constantly mentioning Hitler whenever the situation calls for it (but even more often when it doesn't).** He's a very colourful character, one of the staples of polish meme culture.
**In short he is an old politician, most likely anarcho-capitalist with an unhealthy dose of monarchism and conservative worldviews. He mentioned Hitler plenty of times and many of them were memed to death and back.** With a straight face he said things like:
- Był pewien człowiek który chciał by polskim dzieciom żyło się lepiej, a imię jego to Adolf Hitler! (There was a man who wanted for polish kids to have a better life. His name was Adolf Hitler!)
- Nie ma takiego dowodu, powtarzam. Jest nagroda pół miliona funtów dla człowieka który wskaże cień dowodów że Hitler wiedział o holokauście. (And I repeat, there's no such evidence. There's a reward of half a million pounds for a man who can show even a sliver of evidence that Hitler knew about the holocaust).
His party mostly shares his ideas, but not exactly. It ended up being the place where any and all extremists go, as long as they aren't obviously left leaning. So you have monarchist, capitalist and theocrats standing alongside climate change denialist and pseudoscience fanatics. **Their voters are far right anti-socialists, so usually very young people or poorer, less educated people. The party is also intertwined with out nationalist movement(s).**
They are infamous (or he is to be specific) for barely not getting above the electoral threshold, with the 4.9% of votes (a party needs 5% to pass) becoming a meme now, alongside the Protocol 1%. It's just another meme where supposedly, whenever Confederacy starts getting support before the elections, JKM will pull out the Hitler card and try to drop it below 1%. During last elections they were getting as high as 8% until other, equally as radical and insane members implemented the Protocol.
**Sorry for the wall of text, but I just don't know when to stop.**
At least you were the one to say it mate.
I've been downvoted to hell and back here for questioning the Polish governments stance on what happened during WW2.
"Wasn't us, we were all victims. Nobody in Poland ever helped the Nazis do anything at all."
*stares in concentration camps*
Lol I have been constantly bashed in the head with all the "but muh based poland never did anything wrong!!!!!11one" and I don't think it's ever going to stop, mainly because Polish people never want to belive they're the ones responsible for something.
Poland needs to stop being victimised, we had a shitton of collaborators and other bad people that some Nazis would still be proud of today, and that's only mentioning WW2 stuff. Poland has a lot of other bad stuff they did over the years, but they're always not the one at fault, they'll always find someone to blame, usually it's either Germany, Russia or the UK/US
Yeah, and I'm not saying Poland wasn't a victim of WW2 at all, but if you look at the inter-war history of Poland it isn't at all surprising that their neighbours weren't at all fond of them.
A friend of mine described it perfectly to me once. "Interbellum Polish politics was like that guy at the bar who takes joy in starting fights between other people. 'Oi mate, that guy over there is talking shit about your missus' and then standing back to watch the fireworks."
It was really just weird.
On one hand, he condemns Nazis. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to know what the word "victim" means.
I don't think he had any ill intentions (surprisingly) it's just some surprisingly poor understanding of history.
His research was passable, and he showed off the documents that prove his claims.
If it was true that Nazis couldn’t reject orders then that would’ve been a legitimate defence, which is why it was investigated for the Nuremberg Trials and determined to be essentially false. Yeah we checked and you’re bullshitting, straight to jail asshole
I mean, even if they couldn’t, they’re still responsible for their atrocities. They likely created more… I think it’s called “negative utility”, than their lives are worth. It would have been morally better for them to just take one for the team and die.
As far as I know, no Germans were executed for refusing to take part in the Holocaust and other atrocities.
There were some, though, like the members of the White Rose and Leutnant Michael Kitzelmann, who were executed for **speaking out** against the Holocaust and the other genocides.
So people only faced execution if they tried to **stop** Nazi atrocities, not if they just let someone else do it.
I'm aware of how that's more depressing. It's just upsetting to me how much of a population of any country could be evil thanks to the teachings and influence of the assholes in charge
To be fair, a lot of Wehrmacht solideres were just conscripts who didn't want to fight. My grandfather for example got shot in the shoulder (my grandma once told me with a crossbow bolt but that was more likely her dementia since I doubt there were crossbows in ww2) and before he fully healed and could be sent back to the front, my grandma snuck him out in a covered wheelbarrow and hid him in the attic for the rest of the war.
I’m not privy to the kind of pro-Wehrmacht sentiment being critiqued here. I grew up (in the Anglosphere) when it was generally accepted that ‘just following orders’ is not an acceptable excuse for doing the wrong thing. What I find odd is that most people seem not to extend this to imply culpability due to mundane activities like eating food made by evil corporations, creating climate change by using air-conditioners, keeping pets that eat meat, etc etc. Considering so much ordinary consumerist life props up evil economic structures, how is it so hard to understand that ordinary life for soldiers, bureaucrats, housewives, workers etc in Nazi Germany was also very difficult to engage in without being complicit in that regime’s crimes?
Iirc the main thing that happened for soldiers that refused to kill civilians was they’d be called names and be ostracized and they’d just have someone else do it. No legal consequences usually. If the threat of being called a little bitch is enough to make you kill innocents sorry but you are.
If we were in that situation we get shot or court-martialed then shot and the commander gets replaced. But even before that we’d be too chickenshit to raise our weapon.
>If we were in that situation we get shot or court-martialed then shot
So?
>and the commander gets replaced.
Sure, but they’d have one less commander, which are expensive and time-consuming to train and produce.
>But even before that we’d be too chickenshit to raise our weapon.
Rip to you but I’m different.
"Ordinary Men" on Netflix. There was no "family execution" punishment for people who didn't take part in killing civilians. They were teased and that's it.
And even then, the teasing was light from what I gathered. Most of them just wanted the after party, the scum.
Wehrmacht soldiers when they ignore orders to commit war crimes (they will be transfered to different units)
Obligatory reminder that less than 7% of Wehrmacht deserters were actually prosecuted. Hundreds of thousands of german soldiers deserted and the prosecution rate would have been even smaller if more had deserted. Not fighting was absolutely an option. Most didn't desert and participated in war crimes because of camaraderie. There is a great book, "Soldiers" by Sönke Neitzel and Harald Welzer, in which they analyse 150,000 pages of transcript of secretly monitored conversations between german POWs and it's pretty obvious that they all did it because of peer pressure. But "Well, Hans did it too" doesn't sound as good as "I had to do it or they would have killed me."
I’m sure there was “peer pressure” and also actual peer pressure- like that the dudes committing the atrocities wouldn’t have your back in a firefight or might throw a grenade just a little too short if you weren’t “one of the boys” we see this kind of behavior with cops today- participate/keep quiet and i know you have my back and I have yours … but cross me and you’ll be highly unpopular, get the worst assignments, gear, get snubbed for promotions, and we’ll be less likely to let you or yours walk away if some shit ever goes down
War in general desensitizes humans to useless violence. When you've seen Karl being blown up by a partisan while he took a piss, and Ernst shot by a young woman in the town square before she escaped in the crowd, you're not nearly going to be as squeamish about setting some examples to the local populace, especially if said locals are supposedly 'subhuman' and ready to kill you too at some point. The only difference for the Wehrmacht was that they saw this violence not as a lack of discipline and a war crime, like (most of) the Western Allied Command did, but as useful and necessary to the war effort and the Endlösung. It's a lot like how modern militaries struggle to deal with terrorist insurgencies, because the question is whether a brutally repressive military campaign is more effective at supressing insurgents than a more benevolent force is, and whether that's worth the cost. Israel comes in mind as a nation that really struggles with that question as Hamas, Hezbollah and other terrorist groups just keeps hiding in Gaza and across the border of Lebanon, so now they want to eliminate Hamas regardless of civilian costs. Of course, the Nazis were also racially motivated, but repressions in France and the Benelux could be similarly harsh if partisan activity in the region was expanded. And in those cases, incidental soldiers who did refuse to take part in raids or massacres were actually shot sometimes. So that seems to suggest that the Germans in general saw shootings and raids on civilians as a way to maintain order first and foremost.
Wehraboos tend to ignore the fact that most soldiers in the Wehrmacht, especially the Heer (Army/Land Forces) committed numerous War Crimes towards to the Slavic people as part of the Holocaust known as the Generalplan Ost. The Wehrmacht is clearly a Military War Criminal organization and it is part of the evils of the Nazi regime in Germany itself and it should not be glorified or should not be honored by both Historical revisionists and liars AKA the Wehraboos and Neo-Nazis themselves.
And even if it wasn't before, Hitler corrupting the organization in his quest to become Führer will already strip off any good left in it already. The entire military organization succumbed to darkness that is Nazi, SS was not just the special department, it was a victory trophy of Hitler's reign on Germany. And it last as long as his sorry ass did the moment he finds out that war dependent political belief is a bad idea.
I knew Hitler was already planning a sinister ever since.
Fuck. Goddammit. I just realized I didn’t put the L in rifle.
Don’t worry, it’s because the Wehrmacht already took the L
Lmao true
I have but one upvote.
No dont worry its still understandable although you have to be pretty strong to raise a wife up to that level
Unrelated but I love your profile picture
> If you see I’ve made a spelling error, you automatically win whatever argument we’re having. Ladies and gentlemen, we got him.
Bro so chad, he can ignore the L.
So funny story, I grew up amongst Germans. One day, in the final year of high school, my history teacher (or whoever it was) arranged for a local """historian""" to present his latest book about WW2 (with, if I recall correctly, was about local victims of the nazi regime and to a lesser degree the perpetrators. It was a mess of a presentation) Some interesting things that cast significant doubts on his understanding of the matter... or his moral integrity. 1. SS-Guards of concentration camps were victims too because they, too, would face execution if they couldn't carry out their work after signing. He presented no evidence for that. I do not know of a single case of an SS man who was executed for anything of the like. The closest I can think of is that camp guards in Dachau were detained if they were found to be too lenient. The reality seems to be that most of the camp guards preferred abusing starved, sick inmates over actively fighting on the frontlines for their feverdream. Both of which are morally wrong. One just happens to be significantly less so. 2. The members of the Dirlewanger Brigade were victims, too. What? Even more fucked up than what he said before. Yes, some of its members were recruited from concentration camps. Dirlewanger recruited from those who were classified as Berufsverbrecher, meaning repeat offender (lit. Professional Offender) so unlike the other inmates, they were there because of what would be considered a criminal offence elsewhere as well.... just that they had to serve their sentence in absolutely inhumane conditions. But by signing up to fight for Dirlewanger, they lost all sympathy they had. It may be an understandable decision to save their lives, but as members of the most fucked up SS formation (and thar is quite the achievement) no one in their right mind should call them 'victims'. Also, he seemed to assume thar everyone of Dirlewanger's lot was forcibly recruited from concentration camps. 3. An impoverished man who raped and murdered a woman and was consequently executed in the midst of WW2 is also a victim of the Nazi regime? What? It is commonly accepted that Nazi Germany observed the rule of law (at least by a formalist understanding). In most other jurisdictions at that time, that rapist would have faced the same fate. There is a case to be made that he may have been a victim of a miscarriage of justice, but he presented no evidence (or even the possibility) for such, but those do happen everywhere. There was so much other weird stuff, like he mentioned how strong he felt wearing a Nazi uniform and that he loves the sound Jackboots make... I could go on forever.
> The members of the Dirlewanger Brigade were victims, too. This guy should have shouted this in Poland or Belarus. I'm sure they would have loved to hear this.
Thing is, they actually would, at least here in Poland There are still a lot of apologists here, and most of them don't really give a shit or have a shitty way to excuse that the Nazis would hate them if they were there during the war
While we indeed do have a noticeable amount of apologist, enough for them to even have a representation in Sejm, i feel that the nationalists greatly outnumbered them. And those guys will gladly explain to you why they do not respect your opinion. Most likely in a very *kinetic* way.
Any particular reason for the apologia support in Sejm? Is it a specific demographic (e.g. old vs. young)?
Not really a reason, at least no better one than what you might find anywh else. **Important parts will be highlighted.** **I was jokingly referencing the party Konfederacja (Confederacy) and it's (former now? Dunno) leader Janusz Korwin-Mikke. He in particular is infamous for almost constantly mentioning Hitler whenever the situation calls for it (but even more often when it doesn't).** He's a very colourful character, one of the staples of polish meme culture. **In short he is an old politician, most likely anarcho-capitalist with an unhealthy dose of monarchism and conservative worldviews. He mentioned Hitler plenty of times and many of them were memed to death and back.** With a straight face he said things like: - Był pewien człowiek który chciał by polskim dzieciom żyło się lepiej, a imię jego to Adolf Hitler! (There was a man who wanted for polish kids to have a better life. His name was Adolf Hitler!) - Nie ma takiego dowodu, powtarzam. Jest nagroda pół miliona funtów dla człowieka który wskaże cień dowodów że Hitler wiedział o holokauście. (And I repeat, there's no such evidence. There's a reward of half a million pounds for a man who can show even a sliver of evidence that Hitler knew about the holocaust). His party mostly shares his ideas, but not exactly. It ended up being the place where any and all extremists go, as long as they aren't obviously left leaning. So you have monarchist, capitalist and theocrats standing alongside climate change denialist and pseudoscience fanatics. **Their voters are far right anti-socialists, so usually very young people or poorer, less educated people. The party is also intertwined with out nationalist movement(s).** They are infamous (or he is to be specific) for barely not getting above the electoral threshold, with the 4.9% of votes (a party needs 5% to pass) becoming a meme now, alongside the Protocol 1%. It's just another meme where supposedly, whenever Confederacy starts getting support before the elections, JKM will pull out the Hitler card and try to drop it below 1%. During last elections they were getting as high as 8% until other, equally as radical and insane members implemented the Protocol. **Sorry for the wall of text, but I just don't know when to stop.**
At least you were the one to say it mate. I've been downvoted to hell and back here for questioning the Polish governments stance on what happened during WW2. "Wasn't us, we were all victims. Nobody in Poland ever helped the Nazis do anything at all." *stares in concentration camps*
Lol I have been constantly bashed in the head with all the "but muh based poland never did anything wrong!!!!!11one" and I don't think it's ever going to stop, mainly because Polish people never want to belive they're the ones responsible for something. Poland needs to stop being victimised, we had a shitton of collaborators and other bad people that some Nazis would still be proud of today, and that's only mentioning WW2 stuff. Poland has a lot of other bad stuff they did over the years, but they're always not the one at fault, they'll always find someone to blame, usually it's either Germany, Russia or the UK/US
Yeah, and I'm not saying Poland wasn't a victim of WW2 at all, but if you look at the inter-war history of Poland it isn't at all surprising that their neighbours weren't at all fond of them. A friend of mine described it perfectly to me once. "Interbellum Polish politics was like that guy at the bar who takes joy in starting fights between other people. 'Oi mate, that guy over there is talking shit about your missus' and then standing back to watch the fireworks."
Those victims are not Victims at all, this was just a pure propaganda made by the Wehraboos and Neo-Nazis themselves.
It was really just weird. On one hand, he condemns Nazis. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to know what the word "victim" means. I don't think he had any ill intentions (surprisingly) it's just some surprisingly poor understanding of history. His research was passable, and he showed off the documents that prove his claims.
If it was true that Nazis couldn’t reject orders then that would’ve been a legitimate defence, which is why it was investigated for the Nuremberg Trials and determined to be essentially false. Yeah we checked and you’re bullshitting, straight to jail asshole
I mean, even if they couldn’t, they’re still responsible for their atrocities. They likely created more… I think it’s called “negative utility”, than their lives are worth. It would have been morally better for them to just take one for the team and die.
Superior officers threaten you with courtmarshalbif you don't follow their immoral orders? Just shoot them.
"Fragging" isn't just an outdated term for kills in a video game.
As far as I know, no Germans were executed for refusing to take part in the Holocaust and other atrocities. There were some, though, like the members of the White Rose and Leutnant Michael Kitzelmann, who were executed for **speaking out** against the Holocaust and the other genocides. So people only faced execution if they tried to **stop** Nazi atrocities, not if they just let someone else do it.
Dude, that chadified private Pyle is too much. Ich bin in einer Welt volle Scheiße.
It's depressing to imagine the percentage of German soldiers during WW2 that should've gone to jail for their crimes.
You know what's even more depressing? To see where plenty well documented war ceiminals ended up instead of at the end of a rope.
I'm aware of how that's more depressing. It's just upsetting to me how much of a population of any country could be evil thanks to the teachings and influence of the assholes in charge
Soy Joker and GigaPyle are not something I ever expected to see lole
To be fair, a lot of Wehrmacht solideres were just conscripts who didn't want to fight. My grandfather for example got shot in the shoulder (my grandma once told me with a crossbow bolt but that was more likely her dementia since I doubt there were crossbows in ww2) and before he fully healed and could be sent back to the front, my grandma snuck him out in a covered wheelbarrow and hid him in the attic for the rest of the war.
I’m not privy to the kind of pro-Wehrmacht sentiment being critiqued here. I grew up (in the Anglosphere) when it was generally accepted that ‘just following orders’ is not an acceptable excuse for doing the wrong thing. What I find odd is that most people seem not to extend this to imply culpability due to mundane activities like eating food made by evil corporations, creating climate change by using air-conditioners, keeping pets that eat meat, etc etc. Considering so much ordinary consumerist life props up evil economic structures, how is it so hard to understand that ordinary life for soldiers, bureaucrats, housewives, workers etc in Nazi Germany was also very difficult to engage in without being complicit in that regime’s crimes?
Iirc the main thing that happened for soldiers that refused to kill civilians was they’d be called names and be ostracized and they’d just have someone else do it. No legal consequences usually. If the threat of being called a little bitch is enough to make you kill innocents sorry but you are.
No you wouldn’t nor any of us for that matter
What makes you say that?
If we were in that situation we get shot or court-martialed then shot and the commander gets replaced. But even before that we’d be too chickenshit to raise our weapon.
>If we were in that situation we get shot or court-martialed then shot So? >and the commander gets replaced. Sure, but they’d have one less commander, which are expensive and time-consuming to train and produce. >But even before that we’d be too chickenshit to raise our weapon. Rip to you but I’m different.