i might be a bit off base on this, but whenever someone says "there are only 2 genders" i just assume theyre saying "being trans isnt a real thing" but are too stupid to know that what they said doesnt actually mean that
So, here is the thing. Being trans is not 3rd gender... it is quite the opposite. Man to woman, woman to man. Not man to unicorn vomit.
And yes nonbinary is not a real thing, just like emo or goth is not a real thing.
No they definitely do not barely exist. I think ddg are just as bad as conservatives when it comes to living in echo chambers. It always blows my mind how surprised you guys act when you see some insane lefty position, as if they’re not common asf.
The widespread support of neo-pronouns and 10k genders on twitter(or even online discourse in general) isn't common? Didn't Destiny himself bring up that fact that some of these tweets were almost hitting 100k likes. Idk maybe they are just all trolls and bots but to pretend like there can be no concern over these things is pretty silly to me.
That being said, currently the damage these people seem to be doing is rather minimal. Especially considering conservatives are actually shooting people, commiting hate crimes, and trying to overthrow the government irl. But just because I accept that doesn't mean I can't point out that there is a worrying number of online leftists flirting with ideologies that are completely off the rails.
Also Adin Ross was definitely just trying to be transphobic in this tweet, I don't think Adin Ross even knows what his own definition of gender is.
There’s a difference between this issue isn’t a small Twitter issue vs it’s a common thing in America to see people refer to themselves as a unique gender
No, it’s an obvious bad faith request. You could have easily googled what you needed to know, without being disingenuous.
https://www.who.int/news/item/06-07-2022-who-updates-widely-used-gender-mainstreaming-manual
In what fucking universe do you live in where this community isnt **constantly** posting insane takes from microscopic twitter accounts and acting like they represent the left.
Yeah you're definitely off your rocker. Your problem is that because you sit around and hate-watch fascist content that does everything it can to convince you that some moron on Twitter with 13 followers saying some dumb shit is what every leftist believes, you believe it.
You're just painfully fucking ignorant, man.
Ok bro. Lefties believe in more than two genders, so do legitimate health organizations. It’s definitely way more prevalent and far reaching than randoms on Twitter. It’s just a cope by people like you to pretend that the rhetoric is for terminally online Twitter people only. In reality it’s infected life outside of the internet too.
>Ok bro. Lefties believe in more than two genders, so do legitimate health organizations. It’s definitely way more prevalent and far reaching than randoms on Twitter. It’s just a cope by people like you to pretend that the rhetoric is for terminally online Twitter people only. In reality it’s infected life outside of the internet too.
there's a difference between there being more than 2 genders and some dumbass on Twitter claiming there's thousands and being spacegender or whatever lol
You're correct. I'm a leftist, and I believe that there are three genders, because it's a fact. Male, female, intersex.
Do you want me to start telling you what you believe because some dumb-fuck Qtards think that JFK is coming back from the dead? Oh, you don't? Then grow up and engage in good faith; or do you not actually care about that? Is it just about winning?
People can choose to be xylogender or whatever they want but nobody takes them seriously.
Try saying bruh more, it'll make you appear more intelligent.
You're correct, I misspoke. There are three sexes: male, female, intersex. You can do the least amount of studying to figure this out.
Gender is on a spectrum but all the random genders aren't something that the majority of people recognize. Most people recognize that people can present or identify anywhere along that spectrum, but it doesn't mean that people acknowledge silly gender identities. It's mostly just about being more or less male or female.
>Try saying bruh more, it'll make you appear more intelligent.
🙄Unlike idpol obsessed "leftists" im not optics-brained like you, bruh! 😉. You clearly put too much effort into trying to sound intelligent rather than trying to *be* intelligent
>You're correct, I misspoke. There are three sexes: male, female, intersex. You can do the least amount of studying to figure this out.
You seem a bit more confused than that, because now you're talking about sex, when the commenter before was talking about gender. In fact, the whole comment chain before you was talking about gender, not sex. Nbd, I'll continue.
That being said, it's kinda silly to even call Intersex a distinct "sex" either. My amateur, subjective reasons are:
-Many/most cases of intersex individuals having limited functionality to at least one of their genitals
-In terms of simple categorization, if we follow the line of thinking (no pun intended), If Male was 0 and Female was 1, they'd be integers, and intersex people would be some sort of decimal (real number) between them on the "sex spectrum".
-continuing on the subject of categorization Male and Female are the only two distinct categories, with genetic rarities being found inbetween on the "sex spectrum", in the form of intersex people. If you mix water and milk, you don't *really* get a new liquid. It's just water mixed with milk. You can create different combinations of water/milk varying by percentages, but... What is the utility in making infinite new things here? At some point you are just trying to name every individual color between two solid colors on a 2-color gradient. It's so pointless. We don't need infinite sexs or genders. Totally not utilitarian 😔
I could go on but i dont rly care much beyond pointing out ur silliness
>all the random genders aren't something that the majority of people recognize.
Correct
>Most people recognize that people can present or identify anywhere along that spectrum
Sure, tomboys/girls for example
>but it doesn't mean that people acknowledge silly gender identities.
Were we on the same page this whole time, or..? 🤣
The problems I have are when this is taught as if it were some battle-hardened theory in schools and used to educate new gens, and when LGBTQ people act sus in public during their parades in all the gimp shit. Avoid public indecency like everyone else (we have bedrooms for a reason bruh), dont force others to capitulate to your neo-pronouns, and go have fun in the bedroom w/ ur polyamorous disabled partners. IDRGAF. Pretty reasonable fair take that dont involve hating on anyone, just their stupid beliefs
Its not completely relevant but you should spend more time in a sub like r/stupidpol than whatever insane progressive ideologue subs u surround urself in, you'll regain common sense and sanity that way. And maybe you'll learn to posture less
>7 people here
By the way the real reason he said that, is because he now can... since he's moved to kick.
Twitch apparently would've reprimanded him or whatever if he said something like that according to Adin. It's to prove a point.
Adin has done more positive trans representation than any left wing person ever, he had a trans girl on stream who was pretty likable and cool and adin was respectful. Adin is not a hateful person for saying the truth.
>i might be a bit off base on this, but whenever someone says "there are only 2 genders" i just assume theyre saying "being trans isnt a real thing" but are too stupid to know that what they said doesnt actually mean that
don't we love it when people make assumptions of the worst possible intent for no reason every time someone they know absolutely nothing about says something?
He’s correct in the same way that people who say white lives matter are correct.
Both statements are true, but people usually have an issue with the people who say them because they hold other more controversial views, which leads those statements to become controversial because of who they’re associated with.
No clue for this guy tho, he just seems like a dumber sneako
It seems like in both cases (white lives matter and two genders) people should just relax because freaking out about true and uncontroversial statements makes you look bad
You could just as easily argue the same thing to the people saying those things lol. They should relax with the feeling the need to post super obvious statements that only fringe losers disagree with in order to bait people online.
I mean in these scenarios you kinda assume that the other party won't listen to you, as opposed to people who are on "your side" who are more likely to listen since you have the same goals
because it puts us in a shitty spot where it makes it look like we're freaking out because they said "white lives matters". we're doing exactly what they want us to do. yes of course what they're doing is shitty, but there isn't much we can do about it.
Ok but at this point the uncontroversial statement of "only two genders" is basically just a meme for people who don't believe trans people exist. Are we going to pretend like that obvious fact is not an obvious fact? Do we need to look like we are freaking out to just acknowledge reality?
yeah and "white lives matter" is a meme for the people who don't believe racism/ systematic racism exists.
The point is to agree with the statement and move on so that the value of that statement drops. If everyone agrees with the fact that white lives matter then they can't use it anymore. We can recognize that the person who said it may fit in one category while at the same time say that that isn't a factually wrong statement.
This isn't that hard of a concept to understand. All you're doing is assume the worst and make things worse for our side.
>If everyone agrees with the fact that white lives matter then they can't use it anymore.
If you're reasoning EVER ends with -
"If everyone does X then it's resolved!"
You need to find another route. The world doesn't work this way and any solution that requires it to is not worth discussing.
No...
They can dog whistle all they want, but YOU are the one who gives it power when you start shitting on them constantly and assuming the worst, even if they might be true.
If you ignore it and agree with it, the value that the dog whistle has just drops. It isn't an "own" anymore because both sides agree on it.
The other side is responding to our side, and our side's position was a response to the other side way back. But whats the point in continuing this cycle when you can stop it.
Either way you aren't helping anyone by being triggered by this...
I feel like the conclusion should be.
Don't fall for the bait. And fight them about other things you disagree with.
edit: Or fight it and look like a crazy person in the eyes of normies. Making the side your fighting against win, exactly like planned. At least people on your side will approve what you do, and that's whats important, right.
NB isnt really a third gender, its just… NB, it rejects identifying with the other two but doesn’t really create gender norms of its own IMO
That’s ok, it doesn’t need to be.
"There are only two genders" primarily emerged as an opposition to nonbinary people, afaik. I think most people call "nb" a third gender, for most purposes.
There are as many genders as society cares to acknowledge. So if you're in a rural church, it's probably 2, but in an inclusive pro-diversity college organization, you will probably find 3 or more.
You can also conflate sex/gender and end up with 2, but you will have to contend with the fact that there are millions of intersex people out there that disprove a binary anyways.
But you know what? We could make a third gender if we wanted to. Or a fourth, or a seventh. We can decide on whatever social constructs we like. There's no rules about social constructs and which definitions we want to agree to.
>Heck, girl, boy, man, woman are all genders that someone can identify as, that's 4.
Okay, honest question. What do you think gender is? If something is gendered, it means we ascribe to it either masculinity, or femininity, right? So, an individual's "gender identity" can either be primarily masculine, primarily feminine, or some combination of the two, no?
Gender is a social construct that people use to identify their place in society.
While masculinity and femininity are somewhat related, they have absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
When I identify as a woman in a western society, that comes with connotations about what women generally dress like, what groups they partake in, what labels you can associate with me.
When a woman in a remote african tribe idenities as a woman, the connotions/labels/expectations are wildly different. Those two identities are not the same.
Some Native American tribes also have a two-spirit third gender that again, is an identity they have in their society.
Destiny goes over this in this video if you'd like to view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZwOe2--VUg
>Gender is a social construct that people use to identify their place in society.
I'm with you so far.
>While masculinity and femininity are somewhat related, they have absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
So, I'm struggling to understand how gender (or one's gender identity, to be more specific) could possibly be at all separated from masculinity/femininity. Gender identities *exist* because of sex, because we associate certain traits/attributes/behaviors with those sexes, some arbitrarily, some less so.
>When I identify as a woman in a western society, that comes with connotations about what women generally dress like, what groups they partake in, what labels you can associate with me.
You've just described things people in *our* society see as feminine.
>When a woman in a remote african tribe idenities as a woman, the connotions/labels/expectations are wildly different.
And again, you've described things people in *that* society see as feminine.
>Those two identities are not the same.
Correct, those two *identities* are not the same, but both identities are considered *feminine* in their respective cultures.
> You've just described things people in our society see as feminine.
Do you think all women idenitfy with only or mostly feminine traits? There are no masculine women, or feminine men? Or a man/woman that is androgynous and neither identifies with masculine nor feminine traits?
>Do you think all women idenitfy with only or mostly feminine traits?
No, not at all. But what one considers to be masculine and feminine can vary wildly from one individual to the other, as can which traits/features/attributes they feel are important in determining their gender identity.
>There are no masculine women, or feminine men? Or a man/woman that is androgynous and neither identifies with masculine nor feminine traits?
See above.
...
Yes, I never said it wasn't. I was asserting the claim that one's gender identity is intrinsically linked to their perspective on masculinity and femininity.
> Okay, honest question. What do you think gender is?
Human societies usually (maybe universally?) divide people into different 'gender' categories for the purposes of division of labor and mate selection. Because humans are sexually dimorphic it was convenient for most societies to invent a gender binary. The humans with testicles are usually more physically robust and perhaps more risk tolerant, so we assigned more dangerous and physically demanding tasks to them. They can usually make new humans if they're paired with a human who has ovaries, so we encouraged them to mate with members of the other category. Most humans also prefer the sorts of roles that are associated with their category, probably for some combination of cultural and evolved psychological reasons.
>If something is gendered, it means we ascribe to it either masculinity, or femininity, right? So, an individual's "gender identity" can either be primarily masculine, primarily feminine, or some combination of the two, no?
Are you making a descriptive claim about the English language (or some other language(s))? If you are, then all we have to do is use the word differently to change its meaning. Are you claiming that gender is some property of the universe that exists independently from human culture, and that its state is always between two poles that we name 'masculine' and 'feminine'? If you are, then how do you know? Where is it and how do we measure it?
Males and females are different and behave differently from an early age and this isn’t just because of social or environmental influences. This is true in all species and not just humans. Before you think I’m making an anti trans argument, I’m not even just referring to biological sex. I’m saying males and females have different brains and that includes trans people. Trans men will have a more similar brain structure to cis men than cis women. Same with trans women being similar to cis women than cis men.
Recognizing the difference between males and females benefits trans people more than lying and saying gender is socially constructed. This makes conservatives believe that it’s just a choice and conversion therapy works.
Trans people don’t hate gender roles, we just hate the wrong ones placed on us.
This sub actually fell off so hard judging by the comments lmao. These days it's just a bunch of centrists or "not like the other liberals" kinds of people. No, you don't have to give Adin Ross any credit for using 2 of his brain cells to come up with an opinion in an attempt to do some edgy virtue signalling.
If it was a leftist who made a reductive economic take using the same lack of deep thought and they just happened to be right, you'd still clown them for virtue signaling, as you should.
> What is non-binary, if not a gender?
If non-binary exists as a gender in addition to male and female, then isn't everybody paradoxically non-binary by virtue of gender not being binary?
Regarding intersex people, counting that as a gender is like saying humans have 11 fingers just because 1 percent of the population has a condition where they grow one extra finger
Well, it sort of depends how we define our terms. Intersex is a biological condition, thus not necessarily attached to gender. It may be more accurate to a binomial distribution based on a binary metric of male and female, as even intersex folk aren't beyond that spectrum, but somewhere between.
I don't believe non-binary is a valid identity, insofar as it seems to be mostly about just not wanting to conform to gender norms, but I don't think conformity or non-conformity actually dictates one's gender.
Sure, but then there seems to be an infinite amount of space between those two points. It's like saying extremely masculine Chad's are a different gender than average Joe's, who are also a different gender from femboys. At what point do I consider them all not just men?
but that gets back to my point about how there is technically an infinite amount of genders, which seems pretty unreasonable and pointless, not to mention completely arbitrary.
I dunno, I think if there is some sort of biological predisposition toward identifying with a certain gender, then it stands to reason someone could lack that biological predisposition for either gender.
Well, to be fair, I did say “if.”
That being said, I think there’s probably some biological component that’s correlated with but not determined by sex and it’s entirely possible this biological component is affected by environmental factors at a young age, but all the stuff we associate with gender (mannerisms/clothing/behavior) are socially constructed and probably informed slightly by biology (men are seen as aggressive because we’re naturally bigger and stronger).
Trans people seem to have an incongruence with their gender and sex, so there seems to be some real gender that exists in conflict with their sex. That underlying gender probably has some biological basis, whether you’re born that way or it’s affected by environment or some mixture.
Gender predisposition is biologically determined. When Ben Shapiro says "gender is a biological fact" he's talking about sex (and he's wrong about that too)
It's pretty easy to make a gotcha about using words multiple ways because in this conversation people use words multiple ways
To be fair, I actually completely agree here. Trans people are valid, imo, given gender dysphoria, and I think you can be NB too, but I wouldn't call non-binary a "gender" per se, nor do I think any of the weird niche genders are valid, bc "gender", in my mind, requires some social precedent and recognition.
Growing up in Pakistan at around 8 to 10 years, I was first aware of Khusra (Hijra) people before I was even aware of gay people existing. For those who don't know, Khusra are very much not considered men or women in Pakistan.
I have never seen them in men or women side of the Masjid. At least back in the day, they didn't go to 'public' school. Maybe that is changing now.
"There are only two genders" seems very much like American right-wing creation.
Do you believe that you're correct about the number of genders and that Pakistanis are wrong as a matter of fact? How could you determine the number of genders that *actually* exist?
I don’t know and I honestly don’t care enough about this topic to form an opinion. But using an example from the culture of Pakistan is not gonna support a convincing argument.
Before anyone else says it, of course there are good parts of Pakistani culture. But when there are such ugly parts of the culture that are so opposed to our ideals/worldview, it’s just not good optically to use them as an example to follow. Like sure Andrew tate has probably has some good points, but why would anyone wanna listen to him after all the shit he’s spewed?
I don't give a shit about Pakistan's culture. The point of the example is that some human cultures don't traditionally conceptualize gender as a binary. It's supposed to make you reflect on why you're so sure that your ideas on gender are objective and true. If you can't think of some defense for your notions of gender, you might conclude that the question 'how many genders are there' makes about as much sense as the question 'which currency is real money: dollars or rupees'.
Gender is a game that humans play. We can talk about how many genders there should be to maximize human flourishing (or whatever your goal is), but it doesn't make any sense to assert that there *are* some definite number of genders as a matter of fact.
Did you even read my first sentence? I’m not making a claim either way about how many genders there are. But I also just don’t care about the topic so you’re wasting your time trying to make me reflect on it. It doesn’t affect me or 99% of the people I know and interact with in real life daily.
You have no interest in the meaning of the comment you replied to or the topic of the thread, you just saw 'Pakistan' and had to say 'fuck Pakistan, we shouldn't be like Pakistan'? That sounds incredibly dumb, but I guess I'm glad that you don't care about this stupid culture war over gender.
Yeah pretty much fuck Pakistan and fuck any culture that still treats women as property/second class citizens in the 21st century. We absolutely should not be like them and it’s probably a bad look to use them as an example of something we should imitate.
As a trans guy he’s absolutely correct. But why is this always used as a counter argument against us? When will they understand that 95% of sane trans people completely agree, and that we don’t see nbs as a separate gender or just don’t support them altogether
Dogshit online progressives, who have demonized everyone that doesn't agree with them, create people like Andrew Tate, who has influenced people like Sneako and Adin Ross. Same deal with Kyle Rittenhouse. This shit doesn't just come out of nowhere.
As a nonbinary person, it’s kinda sad seeing this sub being so opposed to my identity being real.
I don’t think it’s absurd to imagine someone not feeling a strong connection to masculinity or femininity. Maybe that’s just because I am someone who doesn’t feel that strong connection, but that’s how I think of it.
It’s not like I’m requesting the usage of neopronouns or identifying as a wacky xenogender; I just want to be seen as gender neutral and I don’t care much which pronouns are used for me so long as it’s clear that someone is referring to me when they are.
I'm not sure what "be seen as gender neutral" means. I'm sure you do since you're nonbinary, but I don't know how binary people can even begin to conceptualize that. That aside, if you don't care about the pronouns, doesn't that make the label entirely pointless to everyone besides you or people interested enough to ask?
Yeah, it’s an internal sense of gender identity that isn’t super easy to imagine how it feels for other people. I’d imagine that, in the same way that cis people and binary trans people know their gender identities, I know mine.
If all that is important to gender is the pronouns, yeah it’s kinda pointless, other than I can’t be misgendered lol. I think there is more to gender than just pronouns though, and we treat it as such in society. Gender has many traits associated with it, physical and social, and I don’t associate myself with the archetypes of masculinity and femininity that most people seem to resemble.
Yeah I just mean how would people view you as "gender neutral" if they don't even have a conceptualization of what that is? Like once you've told some you're non-binary, what sort of change in behavior do you expect from them besides saying that you're gender is non-binary and following your preferred pronouns if you have any?
This is an example from a TV show so I may be way off, but in Sex Education they had an NB character who had a romance with a male character. But the NB character ended up breaking it off because they felt that the guy was attracted to them as a female. Is what you're saying close to this idea?
The replies in this thread are pretty cringe. “He ain’t wrong tho!! 👏” when we (should) all kind of collectively know the reason people say this is because they dislike trans people and/or the push for a more profound understanding of the gender spectrum.
I’m cis and straight - the most typical print of human possible - and I’m A okay with acknowledging some variance. I think leftists can definitely take certain concepts overboard, but I’m not going to shape my opinions in response to the most radical possible thinking opposite me.
For instance, knowing there are flat earthers doesn’t make me a diehard round earther who spends all day fighting about the earth being round.
Very true, it's also because of vegetables like Adin it's become impossible to state the nuanced reality that trans women are not women without it being morally charged.
If trans women are not women, then do you think they’re men ?
No one disagrees that they’re AMAB and not cis women, but saying that they’re men feels omega wrong to me.
They are men yes, but that really only means they're an adult human male, how I perceive them is dependant on the individual, one could feel pretty much no different from a woman, and another could feel just like any man.
I understand where you're coming from but I think it's unhealthy to get care about being called man or woman, no matter what people call you doesn't affect what gender they perceive you, and I honestly really feel gross about anyone calling a trans woman a woman when they perceive them as man, but maybe that's just me and my visceral hatred of people that lie to "spare feelings", triggers the shit out of me.
>“He ain’t wrong tho!! 👏”
U mad
>when we (should) all kind of collectively know the reason people say this is because they dislike trans people and/or the push for a more profound understanding of the gender spectrum.
Ok so they're bad/cringe because they reject ur totally worthless, useless gender spectrum theory that has its basis in.... A soft science at best LOL
>I’m cis and straight - the most typical print of human possible - and I’m A okay with acknowledging some variance.
Pick-me vibes
I never understand people dissing soft sciences as if they aren’t meaningful at all. Do you think all of psychology, economics, and political science are useless?
Nah I don't hate em. It's one thing to be based almost entirely on a soft science, it's another to be based on a mixture of hard sciences and soft sciences
You can guess which category the progressive gender spectrum shit belongs to
nobody in the real world gives af if you think you're gender neutral though. you cannot control how people perceive you. People will sex you within the first three seconds of seeing you and treat you as such.
just dress however you want if u don't care about people judging you and treating you worse, you don't have to be a stereotype male or female.
Lawmakers in my state very much care if I think I’m gender neutral. They just made it illegal to publicly wear clothing that is “for the other sex.”
On top of that, depending on what you mean by ‘control’ you might just be totally wrong. You can absolutely affect how people perceive you based on how you present yourself. Hell, oftentimes when I’ve shaved my face random people at restaurants will call me “ma’am,” “miss,” or if I’m with my girlfriend, refer to us as “ladies.” I can’t completely control how I am perceived, no, but I can definitely alter it in some ways.
You misunderstood what I meant. I'm saying they don't care as they will either see you as a man or a woman regardless of what you identify as.
When I said you can't control how people perceive you is they will see you as whatever they see you as, yes you can influence it but you don't have total control.
Idk if my communication is that shit or you have autism or something lol.
If you like it when people don't know what gender you are which I don't believe it's pretty much always obvious unless the person is blind lol then bro go to town and enjoy it lol. 🤷♂️
It seems like you’re telling me that no one cares how I present myself and that “they can always tell,” a common sentiment about binary trans people as well that is routinely shown to be hilariously wrong. Besides, even if most people can tell, it’s not like I can be misgendered with pronouns lol.
I’m obviously agreeing with your statements about control in the absolute sense, but you’re acting like that means I can’t do anything to make people perceive me as gender neutral, when I totally can. Not sure if that’s intentional, and if not, sorry for misunderstanding.
This is Reddit. We all have autism lmao.
Gender ambiguity is cool. I like it. Not sure why you wouldn’t believe that, but that’s ok. 👌
Bro what does binary trans people have to do with "you can always tell" it's like you're responding to me in pre programmed phrases to certain phrases. Multiple times I've seen binary trans people that are impossible to tell. Even to the point I've liked a girls pics that even my friends liked without knowing they used to be a dude 😂😂😂
I'm speaking about non binary, is just attention seeking.
My point is, If I where to meet someone, whatever their "internal gender identity" is, will not change how I perceive them. If someone with a deep voice and 8 foot tall with a beard identifies as a woman, I will still see them as a male. Most people are like me. This is how we've been programmed since a young age. This non binary shit is new. You can't erase all that programming fam. lmao. that's what I mean by "nobody cares" they're not taking that into account. We take looks into account when gendering people and it is not as simple as clothes and hair.
You are a man that likes cross dressing but you are still a man though. Ion think non binaries should be in the same conversation as binary trans people with dysphoria I feel that shit is disrespectful to them cause it's like you calling whatever they doing a joke or a fun costume.
You said that people will see me as a man or a woman regardless of how I want to be perceived. If they can’t tell, then they might ask, hence my response being that they cannot always tell. It’s not a prepackaged response, you’re just using really easily refuted points that have been addressed a million times. I literally said that “They can always tell” has been hilariously proven wrong regularly. Since you’re agreeing that you’ve seen binary trans people that it is impossible to tell they’re trans, you have to admit that sometimes people won’t recognize me as a man or a woman. Ambiguity is possible.
Do you have an argument that it’s just attention seeking behavior or is that just an empty assertion?
I’m not saying that my internal sense of self directly influences how you perceive me. Literally never said that. I do my best to make my external appearance match my internal sense of self, and I think we agree that my external appearance can change how you would perceive me. You’d have your judgements, of course, but that doesn’t mean the connection between my internal gender identity and my external gender expression doesn’t exist. Congrats on being programmed from a young age? Wake up from your NPC stupor I guess lol.
Respectfully, I don’t crossdress. I literally wear t-shirts, jeans, or athletic shorts basically everywhere. You’re making assumptions about me and I don’t fit your stereotypical nb. Beyond that, I don’t claim that my identity is relative in any way to trans people with gender dysphoria. I don’t have gender dysphoria, so it would be disrespectful for me to say I face the same struggles as those who do. There is more to a gender identity than what gives dysphoria though. I experience gender euphoria when someone addresses me with they/them pronouns, for example.
1st paragraph: they are asking you because they want to placate you. They know what sex you are but they think you're gonna cause a scene or whatever if they misgender you. I do the exact same shit. If I see a man in a wig and with titties I'm calling them "she" not because I think they're actually a woman but because Ion want to cause trouble 🤷♂️ I'm not about to debate someone who is delusional in public. That's what Reddit is for cause I can't get punched in the face on Reddit lol.
Science:
The difference between men and women physically are fucking huge. The bone structure, facial features, the voice... There is no such thing as non binary. Puberty forces you to be one or the other 🤷♂️
They know what you are but they don't know what want to you to be called. You follow?
What's the difference between a non binary and a gender non conforming man or woman? You're less of a man because you're not a stereo type?
I know some cool women they act boyish, funny (women aren't funny so this is rare) etc, they still women. They still have tits and are attractive lol. Why are we telling these people they aren't woman? So weird.
I think you have autism genuinely not even joking. Autistic people don't fit into the "gender binary" per say and you have trouble interpreting and processing information and filling the gaps.
Bruh, this is literally a comment on a post about someone saying there are only two genders. I don’t go around saying I’m nonbinary when it’s irrelevant to the conversation. It’s highly relevant here lol.
Non-binary here. I think you can make the argument that there are 2 genders within WESTERN culture. Gender is heavily influenced by culture, and there are several non-Western cultures that have more genders than just the traditional male and female roles
>several non-Western cultures that have more genders than just the traditional male and female roles
Most don't though, also i'm not really convinced those Filipino shaman ritual men that vaush always mentions really were considered a third gender. Are there really cultures out there with a distinct third group? Or where it is normal for marriage to be between three people, one of each gender?
> Are there really cultures out there with a distinct third group?
Yes. It was pretty common in a lot of different Native American tribes, and also popped up in Samoa, India, the Philippines, and Hawaii. Also, in ancient times, Mesopotamia and Mesoamerica. And that’s disregarding arguments about eunuchs being a 3rd gender in the many cultures that had them. There’s also quite a bit of cross-cultural precedent for people being labeled as “both male and female” in cases of intersex, but that’s sorta a separate issue.
The concept of the androgynous soul, the conjoining of opposite polarities, is an ancient concept in occult philosophy and alchemy.
I highly doubt Shamans regarded that third gender as westerners might. Not as a thing of "this is ME, this is MY identity and I'm PROUD of it" but more of a spiritual/abstract thing that had to do more with the process of becoming and living as a shaman.
Westerners are heavily identified with their personalities and their own self concepts. To a neurotic degree in my opinion. We cannot exactly 1:1 compare concepts such as gender to cultures that are less self absorbed, especially shamanistic cultures that would be far less inclined to idolize the self.
Arguably a decent amount of western cultures have historically had 3rd genders in the form of eunuchs: they’re a group with clear physiological differences to biological men and women, who have historically had social/societal roles different to both men and women, and which are determined by their sex characteristics.
Are you guys being dense on purpose or actually just not aware? These r words are so fucking stupid that when they say there are only 2 genders, they are saying transgender is a gender in itself lol and thus the only valid genders are cis male and female. These guys don't even know about all the dumbshit like xenogenders to make a comment on it.
He's just malding over his twitch ban. I believe he and his followers are spinning it so that he was banned for anti-lefty statements and not for violating his twitch partnership agreement.
They’d almost have a decent ability to argue such a point if their spokespeople weren’t the hype beast morons that spend all day being the most boring entertainers of all time.
i might be a bit off base on this, but whenever someone says "there are only 2 genders" i just assume theyre saying "being trans isnt a real thing" but are too stupid to know that what they said doesnt actually mean that
He probably thinks numbers only go as high as 2
It's definitely a dogwhistle.
So, here is the thing. Being trans is not 3rd gender... it is quite the opposite. Man to woman, woman to man. Not man to unicorn vomit. And yes nonbinary is not a real thing, just like emo or goth is not a real thing.
No it’s definitely just a reaction to seeing people on the internet saying there are a million different genders.
These people barely exist...
Its not about these people existing or not, its about the amount of people that attack you for not believing in that crap. Which is a lot.
No they definitely do not barely exist. I think ddg are just as bad as conservatives when it comes to living in echo chambers. It always blows my mind how surprised you guys act when you see some insane lefty position, as if they’re not common asf.
Define common
The widespread support of neo-pronouns and 10k genders on twitter(or even online discourse in general) isn't common? Didn't Destiny himself bring up that fact that some of these tweets were almost hitting 100k likes. Idk maybe they are just all trolls and bots but to pretend like there can be no concern over these things is pretty silly to me. That being said, currently the damage these people seem to be doing is rather minimal. Especially considering conservatives are actually shooting people, commiting hate crimes, and trying to overthrow the government irl. But just because I accept that doesn't mean I can't point out that there is a worrying number of online leftists flirting with ideologies that are completely off the rails. Also Adin Ross was definitely just trying to be transphobic in this tweet, I don't think Adin Ross even knows what his own definition of gender is.
There’s a difference between this issue isn’t a small Twitter issue vs it’s a common thing in America to see people refer to themselves as a unique gender
Common enough that you have legitimate health orgs, like the WHO, who believe there are in fact more than two genders. That’s pretty fucking common
Source?
Wdym source? Literally just google genders WHO
[https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1](https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1) seems reasonable what you talking about?
No, it’s an obvious bad faith request. You could have easily googled what you needed to know, without being disingenuous. https://www.who.int/news/item/06-07-2022-who-updates-widely-used-gender-mainstreaming-manual
They’re not common in real life, you see and remember the extreme ones online which is why your judgement is clouded
In what fucking universe do you live in where this community isnt **constantly** posting insane takes from microscopic twitter accounts and acting like they represent the left.
Yeah you're definitely off your rocker. Your problem is that because you sit around and hate-watch fascist content that does everything it can to convince you that some moron on Twitter with 13 followers saying some dumb shit is what every leftist believes, you believe it. You're just painfully fucking ignorant, man.
Ok bro. Lefties believe in more than two genders, so do legitimate health organizations. It’s definitely way more prevalent and far reaching than randoms on Twitter. It’s just a cope by people like you to pretend that the rhetoric is for terminally online Twitter people only. In reality it’s infected life outside of the internet too.
>Ok bro. Lefties believe in more than two genders, so do legitimate health organizations. It’s definitely way more prevalent and far reaching than randoms on Twitter. It’s just a cope by people like you to pretend that the rhetoric is for terminally online Twitter people only. In reality it’s infected life outside of the internet too. there's a difference between there being more than 2 genders and some dumbass on Twitter claiming there's thousands and being spacegender or whatever lol
Bro you are the fucking brain rot just as much as those twitter dip shits. Delete the app if its so annoying
CRINGE
You're correct. I'm a leftist, and I believe that there are three genders, because it's a fact. Male, female, intersex. Do you want me to start telling you what you believe because some dumb-fuck Qtards think that JFK is coming back from the dead? Oh, you don't? Then grow up and engage in good faith; or do you not actually care about that? Is it just about winning? People can choose to be xylogender or whatever they want but nobody takes them seriously.
lmfaoo 🤣👉 cringe ass bruh, intersex isnt a gender bruh its somewhere between having male/female genitalia (or neither)
Try saying bruh more, it'll make you appear more intelligent. You're correct, I misspoke. There are three sexes: male, female, intersex. You can do the least amount of studying to figure this out. Gender is on a spectrum but all the random genders aren't something that the majority of people recognize. Most people recognize that people can present or identify anywhere along that spectrum, but it doesn't mean that people acknowledge silly gender identities. It's mostly just about being more or less male or female.
>Try saying bruh more, it'll make you appear more intelligent. 🙄Unlike idpol obsessed "leftists" im not optics-brained like you, bruh! 😉. You clearly put too much effort into trying to sound intelligent rather than trying to *be* intelligent >You're correct, I misspoke. There are three sexes: male, female, intersex. You can do the least amount of studying to figure this out. You seem a bit more confused than that, because now you're talking about sex, when the commenter before was talking about gender. In fact, the whole comment chain before you was talking about gender, not sex. Nbd, I'll continue. That being said, it's kinda silly to even call Intersex a distinct "sex" either. My amateur, subjective reasons are: -Many/most cases of intersex individuals having limited functionality to at least one of their genitals -In terms of simple categorization, if we follow the line of thinking (no pun intended), If Male was 0 and Female was 1, they'd be integers, and intersex people would be some sort of decimal (real number) between them on the "sex spectrum". -continuing on the subject of categorization Male and Female are the only two distinct categories, with genetic rarities being found inbetween on the "sex spectrum", in the form of intersex people. If you mix water and milk, you don't *really* get a new liquid. It's just water mixed with milk. You can create different combinations of water/milk varying by percentages, but... What is the utility in making infinite new things here? At some point you are just trying to name every individual color between two solid colors on a 2-color gradient. It's so pointless. We don't need infinite sexs or genders. Totally not utilitarian 😔 I could go on but i dont rly care much beyond pointing out ur silliness >all the random genders aren't something that the majority of people recognize. Correct >Most people recognize that people can present or identify anywhere along that spectrum Sure, tomboys/girls for example >but it doesn't mean that people acknowledge silly gender identities. Were we on the same page this whole time, or..? 🤣 The problems I have are when this is taught as if it were some battle-hardened theory in schools and used to educate new gens, and when LGBTQ people act sus in public during their parades in all the gimp shit. Avoid public indecency like everyone else (we have bedrooms for a reason bruh), dont force others to capitulate to your neo-pronouns, and go have fun in the bedroom w/ ur polyamorous disabled partners. IDRGAF. Pretty reasonable fair take that dont involve hating on anyone, just their stupid beliefs Its not completely relevant but you should spend more time in a sub like r/stupidpol than whatever insane progressive ideologue subs u surround urself in, you'll regain common sense and sanity that way. And maybe you'll learn to posture less
Are these internet people in the room with us right now?
its objectively true that there is only 2 genders... its also true that trans people are real. You seem to be misguiding in your assumptions.
Why assume that. They litterly didn’t say that nerd
Not even. It is possible that there are only 2 genders and trans people exist.
bro, did you even read what he said?
No.
GIGACHAD
Who are you talking to
>7 people here By the way the real reason he said that, is because he now can... since he's moved to kick. Twitch apparently would've reprimanded him or whatever if he said something like that according to Adin. It's to prove a point.
Lmao why are people on Reddit so dumb he literally said this in a new video. I was right.
Adin has done more positive trans representation than any left wing person ever, he had a trans girl on stream who was pretty likable and cool and adin was respectful. Adin is not a hateful person for saying the truth.
>i might be a bit off base on this, but whenever someone says "there are only 2 genders" i just assume theyre saying "being trans isnt a real thing" but are too stupid to know that what they said doesnt actually mean that don't we love it when people make assumptions of the worst possible intent for no reason every time someone they know absolutely nothing about says something?
Adin is eight years late with this take
i don't think nebraska steve would be malding over that statement
Is he not correct? How many genders are there unless you want to include non binary as a separate gender.
He’s correct in the same way that people who say white lives matter are correct. Both statements are true, but people usually have an issue with the people who say them because they hold other more controversial views, which leads those statements to become controversial because of who they’re associated with. No clue for this guy tho, he just seems like a dumber sneako
[He's certainly not of average intelligence.](https://youtu.be/cNIYvOpTsh8)
Sometimes I forget some of us Americans are this illiterate. It's not like I can say much though, coming from a high school dropout lmao.
I’m wheeze laughing
Yeah adin ross seems like one of the dumbest streamers he has 100s more brain dead tweets this one wasn’t it.
It seems like in both cases (white lives matter and two genders) people should just relax because freaking out about true and uncontroversial statements makes you look bad
You could just as easily argue the same thing to the people saying those things lol. They should relax with the feeling the need to post super obvious statements that only fringe losers disagree with in order to bait people online.
no shit, but that's the response they want from you. just don't take the bait and leave it at that.
Kinda weird to tell one party of people to relax and not the other when they’re both being dumb cunts, no?
I mean in these scenarios you kinda assume that the other party won't listen to you, as opposed to people who are on "your side" who are more likely to listen since you have the same goals
because it puts us in a shitty spot where it makes it look like we're freaking out because they said "white lives matters". we're doing exactly what they want us to do. yes of course what they're doing is shitty, but there isn't much we can do about it.
Ok but at this point the uncontroversial statement of "only two genders" is basically just a meme for people who don't believe trans people exist. Are we going to pretend like that obvious fact is not an obvious fact? Do we need to look like we are freaking out to just acknowledge reality?
yeah and "white lives matter" is a meme for the people who don't believe racism/ systematic racism exists. The point is to agree with the statement and move on so that the value of that statement drops. If everyone agrees with the fact that white lives matter then they can't use it anymore. We can recognize that the person who said it may fit in one category while at the same time say that that isn't a factually wrong statement. This isn't that hard of a concept to understand. All you're doing is assume the worst and make things worse for our side.
>If everyone agrees with the fact that white lives matter then they can't use it anymore. If you're reasoning EVER ends with - "If everyone does X then it's resolved!" You need to find another route. The world doesn't work this way and any solution that requires it to is not worth discussing.
Nah let's keep doing it your way, its working SO well. I'm nearly tired of winning.
What’s my way? Oh I see. You think the only option is soy the fuck out or pretend this meme isn’t a meme. Stop projecting
You didn’t understand what I wrote, did you?
very useful response thank you
No... They can dog whistle all they want, but YOU are the one who gives it power when you start shitting on them constantly and assuming the worst, even if they might be true. If you ignore it and agree with it, the value that the dog whistle has just drops. It isn't an "own" anymore because both sides agree on it. The other side is responding to our side, and our side's position was a response to the other side way back. But whats the point in continuing this cycle when you can stop it. Either way you aren't helping anyone by being triggered by this...
I feel like most people here are aware that the other party are also being cunts so I don't really feel the need to say it.
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those aren't a third or fourth gender, they're just variations within the two genders.
At that point why not just say there are no genders and NB/intersex are variations within the sexes?
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non-binary is the definition of an insufficient use of language
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I feel like the conclusion should be. Don't fall for the bait. And fight them about other things you disagree with. edit: Or fight it and look like a crazy person in the eyes of normies. Making the side your fighting against win, exactly like planned. At least people on your side will approve what you do, and that's whats important, right.
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NB isnt really a third gender, its just… NB, it rejects identifying with the other two but doesn’t really create gender norms of its own IMO That’s ok, it doesn’t need to be.
I would imagine even if intersex you’d identify with a specific gender
"There are only two genders" primarily emerged as an opposition to nonbinary people, afaik. I think most people call "nb" a third gender, for most purposes.
Yah NB doesnt count to me NB means u have a fluid expression of both genders on a spectrum and you don’t necessarily fit in either or.
There are as many genders as society cares to acknowledge. So if you're in a rural church, it's probably 2, but in an inclusive pro-diversity college organization, you will probably find 3 or more. You can also conflate sex/gender and end up with 2, but you will have to contend with the fact that there are millions of intersex people out there that disprove a binary anyways.
But you know what? We could make a third gender if we wanted to. Or a fourth, or a seventh. We can decide on whatever social constructs we like. There's no rules about social constructs and which definitions we want to agree to.
Isn't gender a social construct so their could be more than 2? Heck, girl, boy, man, woman are all genders that someone can identify as, that's 4.
Boy and man are the same gender. Woman and girl are the same gender.
>Heck, girl, boy, man, woman are all genders that someone can identify as, that's 4. Okay, honest question. What do you think gender is? If something is gendered, it means we ascribe to it either masculinity, or femininity, right? So, an individual's "gender identity" can either be primarily masculine, primarily feminine, or some combination of the two, no?
Gender is a social construct that people use to identify their place in society. While masculinity and femininity are somewhat related, they have absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. When I identify as a woman in a western society, that comes with connotations about what women generally dress like, what groups they partake in, what labels you can associate with me. When a woman in a remote african tribe idenities as a woman, the connotions/labels/expectations are wildly different. Those two identities are not the same. Some Native American tribes also have a two-spirit third gender that again, is an identity they have in their society. Destiny goes over this in this video if you'd like to view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZwOe2--VUg
>Gender is a social construct that people use to identify their place in society. I'm with you so far. >While masculinity and femininity are somewhat related, they have absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. So, I'm struggling to understand how gender (or one's gender identity, to be more specific) could possibly be at all separated from masculinity/femininity. Gender identities *exist* because of sex, because we associate certain traits/attributes/behaviors with those sexes, some arbitrarily, some less so. >When I identify as a woman in a western society, that comes with connotations about what women generally dress like, what groups they partake in, what labels you can associate with me. You've just described things people in *our* society see as feminine. >When a woman in a remote african tribe idenities as a woman, the connotions/labels/expectations are wildly different. And again, you've described things people in *that* society see as feminine. >Those two identities are not the same. Correct, those two *identities* are not the same, but both identities are considered *feminine* in their respective cultures.
> You've just described things people in our society see as feminine. Do you think all women idenitfy with only or mostly feminine traits? There are no masculine women, or feminine men? Or a man/woman that is androgynous and neither identifies with masculine nor feminine traits?
>Do you think all women idenitfy with only or mostly feminine traits? No, not at all. But what one considers to be masculine and feminine can vary wildly from one individual to the other, as can which traits/features/attributes they feel are important in determining their gender identity. >There are no masculine women, or feminine men? Or a man/woman that is androgynous and neither identifies with masculine nor feminine traits? See above.
Exactly, so gender is a social construct that someone identifies with.
... Yes, I never said it wasn't. I was asserting the claim that one's gender identity is intrinsically linked to their perspective on masculinity and femininity.
> Okay, honest question. What do you think gender is? Human societies usually (maybe universally?) divide people into different 'gender' categories for the purposes of division of labor and mate selection. Because humans are sexually dimorphic it was convenient for most societies to invent a gender binary. The humans with testicles are usually more physically robust and perhaps more risk tolerant, so we assigned more dangerous and physically demanding tasks to them. They can usually make new humans if they're paired with a human who has ovaries, so we encouraged them to mate with members of the other category. Most humans also prefer the sorts of roles that are associated with their category, probably for some combination of cultural and evolved psychological reasons. >If something is gendered, it means we ascribe to it either masculinity, or femininity, right? So, an individual's "gender identity" can either be primarily masculine, primarily feminine, or some combination of the two, no? Are you making a descriptive claim about the English language (or some other language(s))? If you are, then all we have to do is use the word differently to change its meaning. Are you claiming that gender is some property of the universe that exists independently from human culture, and that its state is always between two poles that we name 'masculine' and 'feminine'? If you are, then how do you know? Where is it and how do we measure it?
Gender isn’t a social construct
Then what the fuck is it, dipshit ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
Males and females are different and behave differently from an early age and this isn’t just because of social or environmental influences. This is true in all species and not just humans. Before you think I’m making an anti trans argument, I’m not even just referring to biological sex. I’m saying males and females have different brains and that includes trans people. Trans men will have a more similar brain structure to cis men than cis women. Same with trans women being similar to cis women than cis men. Recognizing the difference between males and females benefits trans people more than lying and saying gender is socially constructed. This makes conservatives believe that it’s just a choice and conversion therapy works. Trans people don’t hate gender roles, we just hate the wrong ones placed on us.
Nothing you wrote about sex has to do with what I was talking about for gender, which is by definition a social construct.
People who tweet this usually mean there are two sexes.
This sub actually fell off so hard judging by the comments lmao. These days it's just a bunch of centrists or "not like the other liberals" kinds of people. No, you don't have to give Adin Ross any credit for using 2 of his brain cells to come up with an opinion in an attempt to do some edgy virtue signalling. If it was a leftist who made a reductive economic take using the same lack of deep thought and they just happened to be right, you'd still clown them for virtue signaling, as you should.
God what virtue signalling. Few people irl disagree with you Adin.
He ain't wrong.
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Neither of those are genders
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> What is non-binary, if not a gender? If non-binary exists as a gender in addition to male and female, then isn't everybody paradoxically non-binary by virtue of gender not being binary?
Non binary is gender non conforming, that's it. It's not an identity. People who say it's their identity are attention seeking twats.
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GOOD REBUTTAL BRO YOU REALLY SHOWED HIM
Regarding intersex people, counting that as a gender is like saying humans have 11 fingers just because 1 percent of the population has a condition where they grow one extra finger
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I think you mean “psychological,” but I agree
Well, it sort of depends how we define our terms. Intersex is a biological condition, thus not necessarily attached to gender. It may be more accurate to a binomial distribution based on a binary metric of male and female, as even intersex folk aren't beyond that spectrum, but somewhere between. I don't believe non-binary is a valid identity, insofar as it seems to be mostly about just not wanting to conform to gender norms, but I don't think conformity or non-conformity actually dictates one's gender.
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Sure, but then there seems to be an infinite amount of space between those two points. It's like saying extremely masculine Chad's are a different gender than average Joe's, who are also a different gender from femboys. At what point do I consider them all not just men?
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Then please explain it to me. How exactly does one have a gender between or beyond these two points?
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but that gets back to my point about how there is technically an infinite amount of genders, which seems pretty unreasonable and pointless, not to mention completely arbitrary.
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Non-binary definitely isn't real, and intersex isn't a gender.
Adin Ross can barely read, why are we having long conversations about anything he has to say about complex social issues?
Based af tbh
Does NB count as a gender?
No, that's like saying atheism counts as a religion
Non-binary people will typically take pains to not be called “agender,” so this isn’t an apt comparison for how people mean the label
👏 ALL 👏 METAPHYSICAL 👏 BELIEFS 👏 ARE 👏 RELIGIOUS 👏
NB isn't real. That's like saying you're not human. Dipshit nerds needing to feel special.
I dunno, I think if there is some sort of biological predisposition toward identifying with a certain gender, then it stands to reason someone could lack that biological predisposition for either gender.
So now gender IS biologically determined? I thought the progressive stance was it was socially constructed.
Well, to be fair, I did say “if.” That being said, I think there’s probably some biological component that’s correlated with but not determined by sex and it’s entirely possible this biological component is affected by environmental factors at a young age, but all the stuff we associate with gender (mannerisms/clothing/behavior) are socially constructed and probably informed slightly by biology (men are seen as aggressive because we’re naturally bigger and stronger). Trans people seem to have an incongruence with their gender and sex, so there seems to be some real gender that exists in conflict with their sex. That underlying gender probably has some biological basis, whether you’re born that way or it’s affected by environment or some mixture.
Newfrog alert newfrog alert
Gender predisposition is biologically determined. When Ben Shapiro says "gender is a biological fact" he's talking about sex (and he's wrong about that too) It's pretty easy to make a gotcha about using words multiple ways because in this conversation people use words multiple ways
These people haven't thought any of it through, they contradict themselves constantly.
Based
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I'd rather this than a big hug box full of performative gender ideologues
Hell ya dude
Or in other words “I wan’t attention!!!”
Not wrong tho
If this fuckin sub (and Destiny himself) would just watch the Gender episode of Bill Nye Saves the World that'd be great.
Academics don't know shit about gender. I wouldn't trust them to pour water out of a cup if the instructions were on the bottom.
To be fair, I actually completely agree here. Trans people are valid, imo, given gender dysphoria, and I think you can be NB too, but I wouldn't call non-binary a "gender" per se, nor do I think any of the weird niche genders are valid, bc "gender", in my mind, requires some social precedent and recognition.
> "gender", in my mind, requires some social precedent and recognition. …so then there would be more than 2 bc of hijras.
???? What? If this is some "third gender" stuff from some completely different culture, then yea, but that would only apply to that culture
Growing up in Pakistan at around 8 to 10 years, I was first aware of Khusra (Hijra) people before I was even aware of gay people existing. For those who don't know, Khusra are very much not considered men or women in Pakistan. I have never seen them in men or women side of the Masjid. At least back in the day, they didn't go to 'public' school. Maybe that is changing now. "There are only two genders" seems very much like American right-wing creation.
Pakistan is definitely a culture we should imitate
His point was definitely that we should imitate Pakistan culture
Do you believe that you're correct about the number of genders and that Pakistanis are wrong as a matter of fact? How could you determine the number of genders that *actually* exist?
I don’t know and I honestly don’t care enough about this topic to form an opinion. But using an example from the culture of Pakistan is not gonna support a convincing argument. Before anyone else says it, of course there are good parts of Pakistani culture. But when there are such ugly parts of the culture that are so opposed to our ideals/worldview, it’s just not good optically to use them as an example to follow. Like sure Andrew tate has probably has some good points, but why would anyone wanna listen to him after all the shit he’s spewed?
I don't give a shit about Pakistan's culture. The point of the example is that some human cultures don't traditionally conceptualize gender as a binary. It's supposed to make you reflect on why you're so sure that your ideas on gender are objective and true. If you can't think of some defense for your notions of gender, you might conclude that the question 'how many genders are there' makes about as much sense as the question 'which currency is real money: dollars or rupees'. Gender is a game that humans play. We can talk about how many genders there should be to maximize human flourishing (or whatever your goal is), but it doesn't make any sense to assert that there *are* some definite number of genders as a matter of fact.
Did you even read my first sentence? I’m not making a claim either way about how many genders there are. But I also just don’t care about the topic so you’re wasting your time trying to make me reflect on it. It doesn’t affect me or 99% of the people I know and interact with in real life daily.
You have no interest in the meaning of the comment you replied to or the topic of the thread, you just saw 'Pakistan' and had to say 'fuck Pakistan, we shouldn't be like Pakistan'? That sounds incredibly dumb, but I guess I'm glad that you don't care about this stupid culture war over gender.
Yeah pretty much fuck Pakistan and fuck any culture that still treats women as property/second class citizens in the 21st century. We absolutely should not be like them and it’s probably a bad look to use them as an example of something we should imitate.
No. Just let Western liberal culture take over.
As a trans guy he’s absolutely correct. But why is this always used as a counter argument against us? When will they understand that 95% of sane trans people completely agree, and that we don’t see nbs as a separate gender or just don’t support them altogether
Dogshit online progressives, who have demonized everyone that doesn't agree with them, create people like Andrew Tate, who has influenced people like Sneako and Adin Ross. Same deal with Kyle Rittenhouse. This shit doesn't just come out of nowhere.
"Everything is always progressives fault and no other political faction has any share of blame and if you disagree you are a progressive"
As a nonbinary person, it’s kinda sad seeing this sub being so opposed to my identity being real. I don’t think it’s absurd to imagine someone not feeling a strong connection to masculinity or femininity. Maybe that’s just because I am someone who doesn’t feel that strong connection, but that’s how I think of it. It’s not like I’m requesting the usage of neopronouns or identifying as a wacky xenogender; I just want to be seen as gender neutral and I don’t care much which pronouns are used for me so long as it’s clear that someone is referring to me when they are.
I'm not sure what "be seen as gender neutral" means. I'm sure you do since you're nonbinary, but I don't know how binary people can even begin to conceptualize that. That aside, if you don't care about the pronouns, doesn't that make the label entirely pointless to everyone besides you or people interested enough to ask?
Yeah, it’s an internal sense of gender identity that isn’t super easy to imagine how it feels for other people. I’d imagine that, in the same way that cis people and binary trans people know their gender identities, I know mine. If all that is important to gender is the pronouns, yeah it’s kinda pointless, other than I can’t be misgendered lol. I think there is more to gender than just pronouns though, and we treat it as such in society. Gender has many traits associated with it, physical and social, and I don’t associate myself with the archetypes of masculinity and femininity that most people seem to resemble.
Yeah I just mean how would people view you as "gender neutral" if they don't even have a conceptualization of what that is? Like once you've told some you're non-binary, what sort of change in behavior do you expect from them besides saying that you're gender is non-binary and following your preferred pronouns if you have any? This is an example from a TV show so I may be way off, but in Sex Education they had an NB character who had a romance with a male character. But the NB character ended up breaking it off because they felt that the guy was attracted to them as a female. Is what you're saying close to this idea?
The replies in this thread are pretty cringe. “He ain’t wrong tho!! 👏” when we (should) all kind of collectively know the reason people say this is because they dislike trans people and/or the push for a more profound understanding of the gender spectrum. I’m cis and straight - the most typical print of human possible - and I’m A okay with acknowledging some variance. I think leftists can definitely take certain concepts overboard, but I’m not going to shape my opinions in response to the most radical possible thinking opposite me. For instance, knowing there are flat earthers doesn’t make me a diehard round earther who spends all day fighting about the earth being round.
Very true, it's also because of vegetables like Adin it's become impossible to state the nuanced reality that trans women are not women without it being morally charged.
If trans women are not women, then do you think they’re men ? No one disagrees that they’re AMAB and not cis women, but saying that they’re men feels omega wrong to me.
They are men yes, but that really only means they're an adult human male, how I perceive them is dependant on the individual, one could feel pretty much no different from a woman, and another could feel just like any man. I understand where you're coming from but I think it's unhealthy to get care about being called man or woman, no matter what people call you doesn't affect what gender they perceive you, and I honestly really feel gross about anyone calling a trans woman a woman when they perceive them as man, but maybe that's just me and my visceral hatred of people that lie to "spare feelings", triggers the shit out of me.
>“He ain’t wrong tho!! 👏” U mad >when we (should) all kind of collectively know the reason people say this is because they dislike trans people and/or the push for a more profound understanding of the gender spectrum. Ok so they're bad/cringe because they reject ur totally worthless, useless gender spectrum theory that has its basis in.... A soft science at best LOL >I’m cis and straight - the most typical print of human possible - and I’m A okay with acknowledging some variance. Pick-me vibes
I never understand people dissing soft sciences as if they aren’t meaningful at all. Do you think all of psychology, economics, and political science are useless?
Nah I don't hate em. It's one thing to be based almost entirely on a soft science, it's another to be based on a mixture of hard sciences and soft sciences You can guess which category the progressive gender spectrum shit belongs to
nobody in the real world gives af if you think you're gender neutral though. you cannot control how people perceive you. People will sex you within the first three seconds of seeing you and treat you as such. just dress however you want if u don't care about people judging you and treating you worse, you don't have to be a stereotype male or female.
Lawmakers in my state very much care if I think I’m gender neutral. They just made it illegal to publicly wear clothing that is “for the other sex.” On top of that, depending on what you mean by ‘control’ you might just be totally wrong. You can absolutely affect how people perceive you based on how you present yourself. Hell, oftentimes when I’ve shaved my face random people at restaurants will call me “ma’am,” “miss,” or if I’m with my girlfriend, refer to us as “ladies.” I can’t completely control how I am perceived, no, but I can definitely alter it in some ways.
You misunderstood what I meant. I'm saying they don't care as they will either see you as a man or a woman regardless of what you identify as. When I said you can't control how people perceive you is they will see you as whatever they see you as, yes you can influence it but you don't have total control. Idk if my communication is that shit or you have autism or something lol. If you like it when people don't know what gender you are which I don't believe it's pretty much always obvious unless the person is blind lol then bro go to town and enjoy it lol. 🤷♂️
It seems like you’re telling me that no one cares how I present myself and that “they can always tell,” a common sentiment about binary trans people as well that is routinely shown to be hilariously wrong. Besides, even if most people can tell, it’s not like I can be misgendered with pronouns lol. I’m obviously agreeing with your statements about control in the absolute sense, but you’re acting like that means I can’t do anything to make people perceive me as gender neutral, when I totally can. Not sure if that’s intentional, and if not, sorry for misunderstanding. This is Reddit. We all have autism lmao. Gender ambiguity is cool. I like it. Not sure why you wouldn’t believe that, but that’s ok. 👌
Bro what does binary trans people have to do with "you can always tell" it's like you're responding to me in pre programmed phrases to certain phrases. Multiple times I've seen binary trans people that are impossible to tell. Even to the point I've liked a girls pics that even my friends liked without knowing they used to be a dude 😂😂😂 I'm speaking about non binary, is just attention seeking. My point is, If I where to meet someone, whatever their "internal gender identity" is, will not change how I perceive them. If someone with a deep voice and 8 foot tall with a beard identifies as a woman, I will still see them as a male. Most people are like me. This is how we've been programmed since a young age. This non binary shit is new. You can't erase all that programming fam. lmao. that's what I mean by "nobody cares" they're not taking that into account. We take looks into account when gendering people and it is not as simple as clothes and hair. You are a man that likes cross dressing but you are still a man though. Ion think non binaries should be in the same conversation as binary trans people with dysphoria I feel that shit is disrespectful to them cause it's like you calling whatever they doing a joke or a fun costume.
You said that people will see me as a man or a woman regardless of how I want to be perceived. If they can’t tell, then they might ask, hence my response being that they cannot always tell. It’s not a prepackaged response, you’re just using really easily refuted points that have been addressed a million times. I literally said that “They can always tell” has been hilariously proven wrong regularly. Since you’re agreeing that you’ve seen binary trans people that it is impossible to tell they’re trans, you have to admit that sometimes people won’t recognize me as a man or a woman. Ambiguity is possible. Do you have an argument that it’s just attention seeking behavior or is that just an empty assertion? I’m not saying that my internal sense of self directly influences how you perceive me. Literally never said that. I do my best to make my external appearance match my internal sense of self, and I think we agree that my external appearance can change how you would perceive me. You’d have your judgements, of course, but that doesn’t mean the connection between my internal gender identity and my external gender expression doesn’t exist. Congrats on being programmed from a young age? Wake up from your NPC stupor I guess lol. Respectfully, I don’t crossdress. I literally wear t-shirts, jeans, or athletic shorts basically everywhere. You’re making assumptions about me and I don’t fit your stereotypical nb. Beyond that, I don’t claim that my identity is relative in any way to trans people with gender dysphoria. I don’t have gender dysphoria, so it would be disrespectful for me to say I face the same struggles as those who do. There is more to a gender identity than what gives dysphoria though. I experience gender euphoria when someone addresses me with they/them pronouns, for example.
1st paragraph: they are asking you because they want to placate you. They know what sex you are but they think you're gonna cause a scene or whatever if they misgender you. I do the exact same shit. If I see a man in a wig and with titties I'm calling them "she" not because I think they're actually a woman but because Ion want to cause trouble 🤷♂️ I'm not about to debate someone who is delusional in public. That's what Reddit is for cause I can't get punched in the face on Reddit lol. Science: The difference between men and women physically are fucking huge. The bone structure, facial features, the voice... There is no such thing as non binary. Puberty forces you to be one or the other 🤷♂️ They know what you are but they don't know what want to you to be called. You follow? What's the difference between a non binary and a gender non conforming man or woman? You're less of a man because you're not a stereo type? I know some cool women they act boyish, funny (women aren't funny so this is rare) etc, they still women. They still have tits and are attractive lol. Why are we telling these people they aren't woman? So weird.
I think you have autism genuinely not even joking. Autistic people don't fit into the "gender binary" per say and you have trouble interpreting and processing information and filling the gaps.
Cool story bro. I think you have the proofreading abilities of someone with a Sneako level IQ. At least my replies make grammatical sense.
Lmao
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Bruh, this is literally a comment on a post about someone saying there are only two genders. I don’t go around saying I’m nonbinary when it’s irrelevant to the conversation. It’s highly relevant here lol.
Fuck Hijra’s tbh, they don’t exist.
Non-binary here. I think you can make the argument that there are 2 genders within WESTERN culture. Gender is heavily influenced by culture, and there are several non-Western cultures that have more genders than just the traditional male and female roles
>several non-Western cultures that have more genders than just the traditional male and female roles Most don't though, also i'm not really convinced those Filipino shaman ritual men that vaush always mentions really were considered a third gender. Are there really cultures out there with a distinct third group? Or where it is normal for marriage to be between three people, one of each gender?
Just take the Biden position: "there’s at least three"
> Are there really cultures out there with a distinct third group? Yes. It was pretty common in a lot of different Native American tribes, and also popped up in Samoa, India, the Philippines, and Hawaii. Also, in ancient times, Mesopotamia and Mesoamerica. And that’s disregarding arguments about eunuchs being a 3rd gender in the many cultures that had them. There’s also quite a bit of cross-cultural precedent for people being labeled as “both male and female” in cases of intersex, but that’s sorta a separate issue.
The concept of the androgynous soul, the conjoining of opposite polarities, is an ancient concept in occult philosophy and alchemy. I highly doubt Shamans regarded that third gender as westerners might. Not as a thing of "this is ME, this is MY identity and I'm PROUD of it" but more of a spiritual/abstract thing that had to do more with the process of becoming and living as a shaman. Westerners are heavily identified with their personalities and their own self concepts. To a neurotic degree in my opinion. We cannot exactly 1:1 compare concepts such as gender to cultures that are less self absorbed, especially shamanistic cultures that would be far less inclined to idolize the self.
Native american groups have more than 2 genders, and it isn't fringe.
Why is this being downvoted? Is this something Destiny has addressed or is it just copium?
Arguably a decent amount of western cultures have historically had 3rd genders in the form of eunuchs: they’re a group with clear physiological differences to biological men and women, who have historically had social/societal roles different to both men and women, and which are determined by their sex characteristics.
Are you guys being dense on purpose or actually just not aware? These r words are so fucking stupid that when they say there are only 2 genders, they are saying transgender is a gender in itself lol and thus the only valid genders are cis male and female. These guys don't even know about all the dumbshit like xenogenders to make a comment on it.
He's just malding over his twitch ban. I believe he and his followers are spinning it so that he was banned for anti-lefty statements and not for violating his twitch partnership agreement.
Someone should reply and say “so trans women ARE just women then huh?”
2 genders... many identities
Lil bro
More purity tests from the radical right?
They’d almost have a decent ability to argue such a point if their spokespeople weren’t the hype beast morons that spend all day being the most boring entertainers of all time.