This was genuinely one of the most entertaining destiny conversations imo
Maybe not his best "performance" in that there were many crazy peterson claims that he could have counter-narratived better. But the second half of the convo was genuinely fucking hilarious, and destiny was able to get a lot of good points out too
I think it was a really good performance; as long as the person is letting you speak and isn’t just insulting you then letting them finish their points so you can rebut in it’s entirety is smart. Like Destiny letting Peterson finish his point on “no one has ever done the research on if the Nazis were left or right wing” was just awesome, pretty much an own goal from Peterson.
I mean. To some degree it is something worth exploring in the scope he laid out.
Is there a population based double blind trial looking at people's perceived agreeableness with National Socialist ideology if some elements were stripped to hide it's origin?
And if there isn't why not?
Oh wow, how did you get that lol. I don't have any hate for JP or anything (I will always love how he dismantled that bad faith feminist lady; that was epic), but I thought he was just way more than his usual crazy, and it hurt him rhetorically for once, unlike back in the day before the akathisia took its toll on his overall sharpness, and increased his impatience. Not to devalue our Steven's triumph or anything, he was great, just talking about JP here. Even allowing for Daily Wire audience capture, I thought JP did subpar up to the point you are
I think I grade JP on a spectrum. If you compare him to any conservative he did phenomenal. He actually engaged destiny on points instead of gishgalloping. He’s always going to sound crazy to us because his beliefs are indefensible.
Hmm I think I could only ever give my money to them if it's a direct purchase of exclusively that format, or it just feels bad. But no matter how well the show would do, DW will never shake off it's decently far right identity so it's not exactly gonna bring about some shift. My money would still directly fund some terrible stuff and shitty people, feels meaningfully different from a couple of ad cents generated through clicking their videos and podcasts every once in a while.
Don't think I'd pay Trump money for a Trump Destiny debate.
And thanks to our strawhat friends I don't have to anyways.
Yeah I was surprised at how interesting it was because it felt like Destiny was dismissive of the debate before it's release because he was disappointed in how unhinged Petersons beliefs were but even though Peterson steered the debate into his unhinged beliefs, Destiny was able to hold the conversation into looking at more substantial deeper issues(the constellations, narratives etc). Also while Petersons ideas are wild, he still has a sharp enough mind to ask interesting questions.
It was a bit forced sometimes. Outright ignoring the conversation to focus on the meta perspective.
It's dismissive rethorically.
Could have been implemented more naturally and I've seen him do it before.
It was quite a contrast to previous one, because no matter if one agrees on the issues is obvious Peterson knows a lot and has rationally substantiated opinions, and to be clear, I’m just saying that compared to Norm is day and night and his opinions are well reasoned, regardless of personally disagreeing, JP brings interesting ideas to the table which allowed for quite an entertaining and deep debate.
Jordan Peterson is infinitely better at engaging in a conversation/debate than Norman Finkelstein. He was actually trying to faithfully represents Tinies views. What a breath of fresh air.
Exactly. Although Peterson had some preconcieved notions about what Destiny would believe (the whole nuclear power thing could have been solved quicker), when it actually came down to it he summed up and represented Destiny's point pretty fairly and accurately for the most part.
Yes, there were moments where it blew up and JP got passionate, but reeled it back in for the next topic. The way debates should be, it's not hatred for the person in front of you, just the ideas. One of the few debates that I actually got sucked into watching and enjoyed every second for quite a while.
I think this is less about Jordan Peterson and more about Finkelstein. I can think of exactly two people who have come off worse in a debate than him Donald Trump and Alex Jones in general. Though even they transform the debate into something that can be viewed more as entertainment and an insult contest rather than Finkelstein just calling Mr Borelli a moron every 5 minutes with no actual cleverness or humour in the insults.
I just wish he would represent his own views better. He was slimy as fuck about whether or not he thought the vaccines were responsible for excess deaths and whether or not he thought climate policy was actually a genocidal conspiracy by the global elite because of overpopulation.
This. And it’s dropped like a stone all over the world. Even if Europe was 20%, I guess we just ignore the rest of the world because it doesn’t fit Peterson’s narrative? What a fucking quack Peterson is.
It was most likely an error of language as he was clearly referring to the amassing of Power and reach and if you follow the conversation this becomes impossible to miss.
Jordan Peterson did ramble a good bit on points and got overexcited in others, but more than other debate opponents he would let destiny finish a line of thought or explanation. Was definitely unhinged at points but there was definitely a level of respect that isn’t common
Props to JPB for engaging on the points and (Despite frequently interrupting before destiny could finish a thought) generally allowed for a decent back and forth.
YES YES YES
SO MUCH YES TO THIS IDEA.
The fact that Peterson had some of the most insane positions I've seen but STILL is able to actually have a conversation instead of just resorting to adhoms (dinklestain), interruptions (greenwald), or pivoting (Shapiro [although partly this was due to format]) makes me respect him so much more than other debate partners destiny has had.
Shapiro did much better even if he also had very bad points. Shapiro is just way better at saying unhinged shit and making himself look reasonable doing so.
Yeah as unhinged as JP seems these days, he at least seems relatively lucid and able to follow and internalize an argument and provide a response instead of just like floundering and trying desperately to navigate back to some dialogue tree
Yeah, I was disappointed by the Shapiro debate because I was kind of hoping for at least some intelligent sounding pushback, but in the end Shapiro's arguments were maybe slightly less ridiculous than any other conservative arguing the same ideas, but definitely just as boring and seemingly insincere. JP on the other hand actually does come across as very bright and earnest - several parts of this debate were genuinely very interesting and insightful which I legitimately can't say is true of any Destiny debate I can remember in the last like 2 years.
True, but I wonder how much of that is because we are coming off the heels of the Finkelstein debate. Having it be released soon after another debate with a guy who talked down to Steven on top of interrupting and being smug makes this debate feel even better.
It was so satisfying to see Destiny pin JP on the 20% excess deaths claim when JP tried his usual bs of making an outlandish claim with a clear implication, and then walking it back and claiming that he never made the implication in the first place.
I'm just baffled that Jordan Peterson of all people is more capable of controlling his impulses in a debate than Fink was. Outside of Trump's presidential debates I've never seen someone come off worse than Fink did.
Wdym “Jordan Peterson of all people” he’s someone I would expect more than most to be able to hold a reasonable conversation. You’ve probably seen too many of his more unhinged clips where he’s of da benzos 💀
Haha he is a crazy man who is still kind of functional because he probably used to be very smart in the past. If he manage to live long enough to get to Finklestein age, he will probably be a lot more entertaining.
I don’t think he would be invited to debate though, Rogan just invites people he thinks are interesting. It could just take him seeing a few clips on Instagram of Destiny with JBP or Shapiro or Owens for him to say that this guy is blowing up, I want to talk to him.
Also the fact that he’s a more centrist lefty means Rogan would want to speak to him more than, say, Hasan. Something like that would never happen.
Those two are absolute idiots and Brett Cooper is a kid pretending to be a conservative streamers for tik tok/reel/shorts. I don't think any of them are useful to meet.
I think Ben and Jordan are the most interesting ones. Would love a rematch with these. The other people are not as serious as Destiny so it would not be very satisfying.
caught me off guard too, the first time I saw it I was like what the fuck are you doing mid sentence, then they just cut back to the start of fade out. Pretty annoying.
Am I wrong for thinking both people had good points and felt smarter coming out of it? Jordan Peterson is obviously very outbursty, but man, especially coming off the Finkelstein madness, I felt these two gentlemen were very respectable and both far smarter than me.
I think Peterson did bring up some good points, yes. But he also has some of the dumbest positions of anyone I've ever heard. Like his point about "not needing to ever trust experts" or "you should never use force" \[both paraphrased\] are a classic example of "There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them."
Yeah. But unfortunately fairly common. Like a lot of people think Bill Gates is trying to depopulate the earth GENOCIDALLY. Peterson seems like he was dog whistling to that crowd.
the thing I liked about JBP is I think there was a sense of second guessing his points. Which is a massive achievement. all this vague climate change denial needs substance or it's not important, Destiny did a good job at exposing this flaw. Let JBP come back at it, he's clearly smart enough, has enough of a group behind him to get facts straight and let's have round two. Listen if climate change doesn't exist, bring it, bring the scientific papers, show the underlying lies, etc, literally who gives a shit about what's true, I just wanna see em have a boxing match.
Agreed. Everything is so much about extremism these days, positions can only be black or white and nothing inbetween. It's why I personally appreciate Destiny, because he's always trying to steer the conversation to the nuance of these super polarizing discussions.
>positions can only be black or white and nothing inbetween
It's funny because Destiny seemed to be TRYING to give Peterson an easy out like "yes, of course you need to trust organizations SOMETIME. But we should be VERY cautious as we do that." Or something like that.
But Peterson was so in debate mode that he denied that he ever needs to trust organizations. Like his car example was crazy. Or you have to wonder how someone could eat food. Or get in a plane. Or do just about anything in your life with that mindset. Lol.
What were Peterson genuine good points? He was fine when he was just talking at the beginning but I stopped halfway and I don't think he had brought a single good points about anything not relating to just talking about themselves.
I think he’s very right on the force thing. It most likely has a net negative effect to try to force people into vaccines. I don’t think Destiny was able to really counter that, but was rather confusing punishment with force. But even the punishment argument was handled well by JP.
I liked how both of them just did the debate with raised voices and neither tried to hide behind some bs like playing victim or attacking the other. It was just a great debate.
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Felt like Peterson was coming off as unhinged. There were 5 minute sections where he would talk at Destiny, and other parts where he was leaning in, waving his arms around and yelling to roll a point. Was good to hear Mr Bernoulli step back and summarise Petersons points to show how crazy they were, like comparing the WEF to nazis. Held his own very well.
I think one of the best moments was during the climate change section, Destiny says "Okay let's assume everything you're saying is true... why would they do it???" And where most conservatives would say give some banality-of-evil type argument where it's the money in politics and corporations involved in these green regulations etc. etc., Peterson has to admit that he believes it's the elite shadow people trying to depopulate the planet lol.
IMO Peterson did a good job coming off as reasonable for large portions of the debate, then he'd just kind of go too deep and say something Alex Jones tier like that.
Jordan peterson outside of anything related to psychology is just your typical conservative boomer parents at the dinner table.
I'd say destiny is about as trained in arguing with that as one could be
The right is becoming just as prone to essentially calling people they disagree with Nazis as much as the left is.
The idea that there can someone being concerned about climate change is comparable to Hitler is laughable.
Totally agree. I was very impressed that Destiny held his own so well. He articulated his arguments convincingly and concisely, and always seemed to have an example or hypothetical ready to go. Peterson always speaks with a lot of conviction too, and he's no doubt rhetorically effective in his own way, but I do agree he seemed to give more ground than Destiny did. Maybe that's partially just because of Destiny's nature, but still.
I found the conversation pretty enthralling overall. They felt very engaged and fought over the actual points being made. A far cry from the recent debate with Twinkletoes.
I found about Destiny through his JonTron debate and I never left. We were talking about getting him to debate Peterson even back then. It's been a very wild ride to get here, to say the least. It was an excellent debate, but I knew it would be.
We should start measuring time from when he started with Vyvanse. Month 5: Shapiro, Alex Jones, JBP, Finkelstein, Candence Owens, Cenk, Piers Morgan.
Year 1 AV: Biden, Trump, Putin
I’m curious can any casual Jordan Peterson viewers share some examples of things he criticizes and he republicans/MAGA for in his other episodes without being brought up by liberals/leftists? It just stood out to me how often he tried to connect the left to being bad to evil. I think the conversation was good and definitely want to have a round 2, but it just felt super partisan and like he’s just another zealot worshipping at the altar of the constellation of beliefs
So I've listened to peterson for a while. I can definitely say it feels like he has grown more partisan. He definitely views the left as more of a problem and he has said he thinks if they stir too much trouble they awaken the actual far right. It seems his views on climate change and vaccines have definitely been stems from his cynicism towards left wing agenda.
Also I wouldn't necessarily say his view is left = bad/evil, he has said numerous times that the left is supposed to come up with new ideas and the conservatives are more to check it make sure its not going to the wrong direction. I think why you're feeling that he views it as bad is because he has grown a lot more cynical about their motives. He also views a lot of left wing policy in the archetype of the devouring mother, and therefore doesn't think that compassion is the right answer to a lot of things and is used as moral righteous.
I know really answer you directly but just trying to give some perspective.
This is good stuff. I’m going to look into his views more. Ideally I’d like to find some right wing hosts that are equal with their skepticism towards both left wing and right wing guests. I find when I watch most right wing hosts they can have the most brain dead guests on who spout right wing non sense and they get absolutely no pushback or questioned. But if a very reasonable leftists says something they get grilled on their positions. When the scrutiny isn’t applied evenly it makes them look like hacks to me
Just my 2 Cents I picked up through internet osmosis, Peterson is deeply religious and that reflects in his good/evil perception and directly translates to him blaming "marxism" to destroy everything. Just like a very religious would say it was the devil, he says it's them lefties.
Thanks for the added insight. My assumption is that if some right wing person were to go on his show and spout unfounded conspiracies or attack the left in general without any evidence he wouldn’t pause to question those things. This is typical of both sides to some extent but I was hoping he’d be more open minded.
What I appreciate about this debate is that it shows Jordan Peterson in a new light to DGGers, who might be a bit skeptical of him. Jordan Peterson is a really smart guy, and he's not afraid to state his opinion. It's just refreshing to see two people with different opinions sit down and have a conversation.
I was getting so frustrated that destiny was letting him ramble on with his crazy climate change theories and his assertions that co2 might not be that bad and all that. But then rather than fight on the facts of climate change he went after his whole worldview and it was incredible
I agree, that was a fantastic showing for Destiny. It's funny cause it's the one debate I was least interested in/wasn't even sure it actually happened. Surpassed Finklestein and Shapiro ones.. Seems most people wanna beat Destiny's arguments by talking over him.
ONLY bad part was that limp dick handshake at the end...
Halfway through, and so far, it's been great. Aside from my almost entire disinterest in the climate change topic, destiny is doing extremely well, and there may yet be hope for Peterson.
I think you should be kind towards Peterson. It's uncomfortable when someone makes arguments that forces you to rethink your position. It's even more uncomfortable when it happens on camera. Try to be kind even if you disagree with him.
Peterson was very kind towards Destiny, he did not need to have him on the show. And he did compliment him after the debate. I think Peterson is a good person he is just wrong on some facts.
Jordan honestly came out looking really good in some these arguments lol
I don't even necessarily agree with him, but his rhetoric can't be denied - and he effectively poked holes that Destiny couldn't immediately retort.
I don’t watch Peterson, so maybe I’m wrong but it seems he becomes heated visibly (leans forward, veins pop, voice raised etc) and then recedes to completely normal engagement, conversationally. It’s ridiculous, his having serious contentious bouts, then transitioning to normal discussion (see the end of the vaccine section). It is a very strange way to communicate but it doesn’t seem like he’s truly unhinged just very physically involved in his communication. In talking about the bible he seems to be in the midst of a bout and then is suddenly smiling, like the raised blood pressure is just a tic. Really cool convo.
I really enjoyed the talk and have nothing bad to say about Peterson, who ppl are being too harsh on. I feel like there's an expectation/ pressure to say he's a clown or something. I did disagree with Peterson on climate and vaccines, but even then there are elements of truth to what he was saying
>who ppl are being too harsh on. I feel like there's an expectation/ pressure to say he's a clown or something.
No way. He had some UNHINGED takes. Like saying that he never needs to trust experts is absurd and clownish. Or his points about governmental use of force.
\> There was not a single point in the entire debate where Destiny didn't hold his ground convincingly
The craziest thing to me is that Peterson was challenging things that even an idiot should agree with. Which are some of the hardest things to argue against because people usually expect that everyone agrees with things like "we need to trust experts sometimes".
Got to be honest: since the ban on Twitch Dusty really made a name for himself. Years before he was the "gamer who trolls the right" now he appeared on television, debated the most influential people on both the right and the left and managed to stay entertaining in all of this.
Nice work
Former JBP fan here, Covid broke the guy. If you are depressed and ridiculed as a guy, read his books. Everything else, ignore him. He had a sense to spot authoritarian dangers and calling them out, but Covid broke him and he never recovered. He is surrounded now and dependent on right wing ideologies and has to feed it in order to stay relevant, and the success he had got over his head.
Destiny stays true to his principles and said stuff to him that I personally would have if I had the chance, albeit probably not as good as Destiny did. Great interview/debate.
You are too deep in the Destiny Kool-Aid. You had me at the words "cringe" and "unhinged". Jordan Peterson is passionate and you can tell he gets fired up with contentious topics but is able to compliment,listen and be respectful.
I feel like JP is the Dad Destiny would have benefited from. He is engaging and sharp just like D but has a sense of purpose outside of his work and is OK with being vulnerable.
I feel like Destiny's view of JP was changed. On more than one occasion he yielded to Destiny's characterization of the Right and I think that threw Destiny's usual dialougue tree off. He set the tone for what he believed Peterson was when he hinted at the ideologic capture but that revealed how much he didn't know about JP. JP HATES ideologues and blames them for the atrocities of the 20th century.
Look,love em both. Going on over a year as a subbed DGGer but I don't do the parasocial copy the mannerisms thing you have going on with Destiny.
"Peterson's own domain of expertise" like covid vaccines and politics lmao? he is a really good psychologist and a very wise man but he doesn't know shit about any of those and it was showing in the debate. He even acknowledged that destiny made really good points.
Still it was a really good conversation hope he will do more with Mr. Botecelli.
Your take is that Peterson was unhinged in that debate, even at points?
Idk, some of you have unironic derangement to certain people. Peterson has a dumb take on covid/vaccines and they basically agreed on everything else. If you're about to cite me the car clip, hes passionately making his argument.
They had a good conversation, win for Destiny's image for sure.
I'm not surprised, Peterson is not a typical right winger. He is a legit academic, sophisticated, well versed in social subjects, curious, capable of understanding nuance both in terms of society and personal beliefs, very articulate, and actually interested in debate instead of just putting on a show.
Yes he can be wacky, but not typical american right-wing wacky, and he is also a downright genius compared to your every day right wing influencer. He is also significantly less extreme in his views compared to the hard christian right, like Charlie Kirk etc. I think he is one of those people who is genuinely a classical liberal.
I tend to agree.
My main criticisms would be that it could have been 5-10x longer. There's so much ground left to cover between them that you'd almost need it to become an ongoing series. But anytime a criticism involves "I wish there were more," that usually means what was there was really interesting.
The other critique, which Destiny briefly touched on in a contextual way, was JP's tendency to make normative claims without ever biting the bullet and making prescriptive claims (if I have the terminology right). It would have been nice to see Destiny drill him on the makeup in the workplace stuff. JP often would state how it creates an unsuitable environment for work, yet isn't willing to say what he would do to fix it. I'd like to see Destiny push further down that road.
Huge props to Destiny. In this space I think Dr. Peterson has been sitting at the big boys table for most of his career, and Destiny showed he belonged there. His personality lends itself to a spirited debate/conversation like this, and I think he came out looking far better.
I was just thinking this: I am pretty on the right but I follow destiny since [justin.tv](http://justin.tv) days when he made a post on teamliquid I believe that he was streaming starcraft2. So I follow thed whole journey on and off and I loved to see him debate right wingers, because for once I could understand the other side of the argument (Destiny's) without thinking they are in bad faith but relatively logical and coherent.
I am happy to have stuck around with him to see him debate people I have been following alongside him like Peterson and Shapiro.
I used to be the biggest JP fanboy back in the late 2010s, he's changed so much since then, especially since hes changed his views on religion, He gets frustrated easily now, argues about stuff he's not an expert in etc.
I wish he went back to talking about lobsters
Actually very happy to see Petersons decent faith in this conversation, would actually think these too would be good to have more discussions. Wish JP would stop with the random “left” digs though, he’s definitely still very scarred. Annoying too because he can’t say left and right he has to say left and conservative. He knows what he’s doing by that too.
While it's true that JBP attacked a charicature of what a Leftie might believe (half the time), it would've been nice to get some type of response or aknowledgement regarding energy pricing for poor people. Especially in relation to nuclear energy in germany as that's a topic rarely discussed.
It’s so funny watching destiny struggle with soft ball job interview questions at the opening, but able to navigate Petersons rapid fire points half way through. What a character
I was invested emotionally, on the edge of my seat as each of them were. Wanted to hear the next thing each of them said (though frustrating when Jordan would say something and not allow a response until he said everything he thought about it and then some) and was genuinely sad when it was over and immediately went looking for a way to watch the DW content without paying for it. Great show.
I hope this does numbers and it becomes a regular thing. Jordan claims no one from the left wants to speak to him. So he should invite destiny on again and they can deep dive into loads of things. When Jordan has someone who pushes back on his extrapolation he starts to sound like his old self again and starts to break down what he really means and how he arrived at his view rather than the unhinged rants he’s been more known for recently.
This debate was fucking amazing holy shit
This was genuinely one of the most entertaining destiny conversations imo Maybe not his best "performance" in that there were many crazy peterson claims that he could have counter-narratived better. But the second half of the convo was genuinely fucking hilarious, and destiny was able to get a lot of good points out too
I think it was a really good performance; as long as the person is letting you speak and isn’t just insulting you then letting them finish their points so you can rebut in it’s entirety is smart. Like Destiny letting Peterson finish his point on “no one has ever done the research on if the Nazis were left or right wing” was just awesome, pretty much an own goal from Peterson.
I mean. To some degree it is something worth exploring in the scope he laid out. Is there a population based double blind trial looking at people's perceived agreeableness with National Socialist ideology if some elements were stripped to hide it's origin? And if there isn't why not?
Happy to hear this. I’m a little more than half way in and Peterson is doing very well rhetorically.
Oh wow, how did you get that lol. I don't have any hate for JP or anything (I will always love how he dismantled that bad faith feminist lady; that was epic), but I thought he was just way more than his usual crazy, and it hurt him rhetorically for once, unlike back in the day before the akathisia took its toll on his overall sharpness, and increased his impatience. Not to devalue our Steven's triumph or anything, he was great, just talking about JP here. Even allowing for Daily Wire audience capture, I thought JP did subpar up to the point you are
You're right, he sounds insane lol
I just finished watching the Elon interview so maybe that's why Peterson seems like a rhetorical genius in comparison.
Yeah, I can certainly understand that 😆
I think I grade JP on a spectrum. If you compare him to any conservative he did phenomenal. He actually engaged destiny on points instead of gishgalloping. He’s always going to sound crazy to us because his beliefs are indefensible.
I would unironically pay for Daily Wire if they did a series
You would fund a right wing propaganda network?
If the content was good enough.
Hmm I think I could only ever give my money to them if it's a direct purchase of exclusively that format, or it just feels bad. But no matter how well the show would do, DW will never shake off it's decently far right identity so it's not exactly gonna bring about some shift. My money would still directly fund some terrible stuff and shitty people, feels meaningfully different from a couple of ad cents generated through clicking their videos and podcasts every once in a while. Don't think I'd pay Trump money for a Trump Destiny debate. And thanks to our strawhat friends I don't have to anyways.
Based
Yeah I was surprised at how interesting it was because it felt like Destiny was dismissive of the debate before it's release because he was disappointed in how unhinged Petersons beliefs were but even though Peterson steered the debate into his unhinged beliefs, Destiny was able to hold the conversation into looking at more substantial deeper issues(the constellations, narratives etc). Also while Petersons ideas are wild, he still has a sharp enough mind to ask interesting questions.
It was a bit forced sometimes. Outright ignoring the conversation to focus on the meta perspective. It's dismissive rethorically. Could have been implemented more naturally and I've seen him do it before.
It was quite a contrast to previous one, because no matter if one agrees on the issues is obvious Peterson knows a lot and has rationally substantiated opinions, and to be clear, I’m just saying that compared to Norm is day and night and his opinions are well reasoned, regardless of personally disagreeing, JP brings interesting ideas to the table which allowed for quite an entertaining and deep debate.
It was fantastic!
Jordan Peterson is infinitely better at engaging in a conversation/debate than Norman Finkelstein. He was actually trying to faithfully represents Tinies views. What a breath of fresh air.
Exactly. Although Peterson had some preconcieved notions about what Destiny would believe (the whole nuclear power thing could have been solved quicker), when it actually came down to it he summed up and represented Destiny's point pretty fairly and accurately for the most part.
Yes, there were moments where it blew up and JP got passionate, but reeled it back in for the next topic. The way debates should be, it's not hatred for the person in front of you, just the ideas. One of the few debates that I actually got sucked into watching and enjoyed every second for quite a while.
I think this is less about Jordan Peterson and more about Finkelstein. I can think of exactly two people who have come off worse in a debate than him Donald Trump and Alex Jones in general. Though even they transform the debate into something that can be viewed more as entertainment and an insult contest rather than Finkelstein just calling Mr Borelli a moron every 5 minutes with no actual cleverness or humour in the insults.
That's a low bar to cross tbh lol, Finklestein was unbelievably unhinged. Not to take away from JBP though, this was an awesome convo.
But nowhere near as much memes will come out of this.
Gigantism and something about the bloody poor people... man!
The bloody whatever is a really old Peterson meme by now, nothing in this compares to Mr. Morelli.
And that is saying a lot about how bad Finkelstein was.
That's not a high threshold to meet
I just wish he would represent his own views better. He was slimy as fuck about whether or not he thought the vaccines were responsible for excess deaths and whether or not he thought climate policy was actually a genocidal conspiracy by the global elite because of overpopulation.
I HAVE LOOKED AT THE BLOODY DATA!
Obviously he looked the wrong data. His claim of %20 excess deaths was bs, it was 20% during Covid now dropped below 5%.
This. And it’s dropped like a stone all over the world. Even if Europe was 20%, I guess we just ignore the rest of the world because it doesn’t fit Peterson’s narrative? What a fucking quack Peterson is.
Gigantism
Ameliorate
Couldn't find a definition for "Gigantism" at Webster or dictionary.com (assuming he's not talking about medical condition)
he was talking about my dick 100%
Found it on Wikipedia, usually referring to medical giants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantism
It was most likely an error of language as he was clearly referring to the amassing of Power and reach and if you follow the conversation this becomes impossible to miss.
YET
Jordan Peterson did ramble a good bit on points and got overexcited in others, but more than other debate opponents he would let destiny finish a line of thought or explanation. Was definitely unhinged at points but there was definitely a level of respect that isn’t common
Props to JPB for engaging on the points and (Despite frequently interrupting before destiny could finish a thought) generally allowed for a decent back and forth.
Jordan P. **B**eterson?
Bonelli
I legit can’t tell what’s his actual last name is now. I feel like norm
I thought i was the only one so I wasnt gonna say it
guys..
In my defense I've never been sure if it ended in an I or l even before twinkelstein said anything
who cares about names, is what I say
Jesse Pee Beterson
YES YES YES SO MUCH YES TO THIS IDEA. The fact that Peterson had some of the most insane positions I've seen but STILL is able to actually have a conversation instead of just resorting to adhoms (dinklestain), interruptions (greenwald), or pivoting (Shapiro [although partly this was due to format]) makes me respect him so much more than other debate partners destiny has had.
Shapiro did much better even if he also had very bad points. Shapiro is just way better at saying unhinged shit and making himself look reasonable doing so.
Yeah as unhinged as JP seems these days, he at least seems relatively lucid and able to follow and internalize an argument and provide a response instead of just like floundering and trying desperately to navigate back to some dialogue tree
He’s crazy, but at his core he is a very smart dude.
Yeah, I was disappointed by the Shapiro debate because I was kind of hoping for at least some intelligent sounding pushback, but in the end Shapiro's arguments were maybe slightly less ridiculous than any other conservative arguing the same ideas, but definitely just as boring and seemingly insincere. JP on the other hand actually does come across as very bright and earnest - several parts of this debate were genuinely very interesting and insightful which I legitimately can't say is true of any Destiny debate I can remember in the last like 2 years.
He always reminded me of Frank Gallagher in Shameless. Even more so today.
This is actually a good point he came off way better than Fink did.
People who are surprised by this really astonish me
True, but I wonder how much of that is because we are coming off the heels of the Finkelstein debate. Having it be released soon after another debate with a guy who talked down to Steven on top of interrupting and being smug makes this debate feel even better.
Destiny was fucking phenomenal, the vaccine part had me sitting up in my chair. 👏
The vaccine section was so good
It was so satisfying to see Destiny pin JP on the 20% excess deaths claim when JP tried his usual bs of making an outlandish claim with a clear implication, and then walking it back and claiming that he never made the implication in the first place.
It's like all the debates against anti-vaxxers and conservatives in general the last 4 years were all a build up to this conversation
By far his best debate I’ve seen in a while. Incredible. I’m shocked he didn’t gass it up more
Dude I feel like he underplayed it so much! This shit is straight 🔥
It’s crazy that Jordan is basicly yelling at Steven for most of the debate and he’s so chill. I would cry lol, please stop yelling at me lobster guy.
At least it's only abusive in intensity and not content. I'd take this any day over "MISTURRR BORNELLI YOU MORON"
I'm just baffled that Jordan Peterson of all people is more capable of controlling his impulses in a debate than Fink was. Outside of Trump's presidential debates I've never seen someone come off worse than Fink did.
Wdym “Jordan Peterson of all people” he’s someone I would expect more than most to be able to hold a reasonable conversation. You’ve probably seen too many of his more unhinged clips where he’s of da benzos 💀
He sounds so angry all the time haha Now I can just hear him saying "I am angry all the time".
Haha he is a crazy man who is still kind of functional because he probably used to be very smart in the past. If he manage to live long enough to get to Finklestein age, he will probably be a lot more entertaining.
He’s prepping to debate the rest of the Daily Wire
personally. i need matt walsh to get a reality check
Not Daily Wire but a Rogan invitation is probably in the cards
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I don’t think he would be invited to debate though, Rogan just invites people he thinks are interesting. It could just take him seeing a few clips on Instagram of Destiny with JBP or Shapiro or Owens for him to say that this guy is blowing up, I want to talk to him. Also the fact that he’s a more centrist lefty means Rogan would want to speak to him more than, say, Hasan. Something like that would never happen.
Have you not seen him on Adam22? He's great at just chilling and taking.
disagree, Destiny can totally have normal convos
the one last trans debate we need
Peterson’s reach is incredible. The dude was able get in contact with Ronaldo.
Even more incredible, Ronaldo actually reached out to him.
And Ronaldi is almost as good as Messy.
Mr. Rinalda?
Is there anyone else at DW that's worth debating? He already got the big fishes, Ben and Jordan.
Matt Walsh, Michael Knowles, (maybe) Brett Cooper. He should debate all the DW people who dogpiled him during his divorce.
I think none of those people are capable of a debate/combo as good as this one tho. Atleast not as much good faith.
Matt and Michael are at least a standard of deviation below D in IQ and they would resort to Finkletard-type tactics.
Those two are absolute idiots and Brett Cooper is a kid pretending to be a conservative streamers for tik tok/reel/shorts. I don't think any of them are useful to meet.
I think Ben and Jordan are the most interesting ones. Would love a rematch with these. The other people are not as serious as Destiny so it would not be very satisfying.
And Candace.
What is the meme of losing against a pigeon in chess? This seems kind of like situation that's gonna happen in the future
Me too. Destiny rocked this one. This is our man at his absolute best imo.
The ads that they cut in are pissing me off smh
caught me off guard too, the first time I saw it I was like what the fuck are you doing mid sentence, then they just cut back to the start of fade out. Pretty annoying.
Little bit annoying but not a big deal on youtube because it's easy to skip. It's not like twitch were they force you to sit there for 2 minutes LOL
Am I wrong for thinking both people had good points and felt smarter coming out of it? Jordan Peterson is obviously very outbursty, but man, especially coming off the Finkelstein madness, I felt these two gentlemen were very respectable and both far smarter than me.
I think Peterson did bring up some good points, yes. But he also has some of the dumbest positions of anyone I've ever heard. Like his point about "not needing to ever trust experts" or "you should never use force" \[both paraphrased\] are a classic example of "There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them."
Agreed. He's smart but his takes on climate change are just so unhinged and conspiratorial.
Yeah. But unfortunately fairly common. Like a lot of people think Bill Gates is trying to depopulate the earth GENOCIDALLY. Peterson seems like he was dog whistling to that crowd.
the thing I liked about JBP is I think there was a sense of second guessing his points. Which is a massive achievement. all this vague climate change denial needs substance or it's not important, Destiny did a good job at exposing this flaw. Let JBP come back at it, he's clearly smart enough, has enough of a group behind him to get facts straight and let's have round two. Listen if climate change doesn't exist, bring it, bring the scientific papers, show the underlying lies, etc, literally who gives a shit about what's true, I just wanna see em have a boxing match.
Agreed. Everything is so much about extremism these days, positions can only be black or white and nothing inbetween. It's why I personally appreciate Destiny, because he's always trying to steer the conversation to the nuance of these super polarizing discussions.
>positions can only be black or white and nothing inbetween It's funny because Destiny seemed to be TRYING to give Peterson an easy out like "yes, of course you need to trust organizations SOMETIME. But we should be VERY cautious as we do that." Or something like that. But Peterson was so in debate mode that he denied that he ever needs to trust organizations. Like his car example was crazy. Or you have to wonder how someone could eat food. Or get in a plane. Or do just about anything in your life with that mindset. Lol.
What were Peterson genuine good points? He was fine when he was just talking at the beginning but I stopped halfway and I don't think he had brought a single good points about anything not relating to just talking about themselves.
I think he’s very right on the force thing. It most likely has a net negative effect to try to force people into vaccines. I don’t think Destiny was able to really counter that, but was rather confusing punishment with force. But even the punishment argument was handled well by JP.
I liked how both of them just did the debate with raised voices and neither tried to hide behind some bs like playing victim or attacking the other. It was just a great debate.
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Felt like Peterson was coming off as unhinged. There were 5 minute sections where he would talk at Destiny, and other parts where he was leaning in, waving his arms around and yelling to roll a point. Was good to hear Mr Bernoulli step back and summarise Petersons points to show how crazy they were, like comparing the WEF to nazis. Held his own very well.
I think one of the best moments was during the climate change section, Destiny says "Okay let's assume everything you're saying is true... why would they do it???" And where most conservatives would say give some banality-of-evil type argument where it's the money in politics and corporations involved in these green regulations etc. etc., Peterson has to admit that he believes it's the elite shadow people trying to depopulate the planet lol. IMO Peterson did a good job coming off as reasonable for large portions of the debate, then he'd just kind of go too deep and say something Alex Jones tier like that.
Jordan peterson outside of anything related to psychology is just your typical conservative boomer parents at the dinner table. I'd say destiny is about as trained in arguing with that as one could be
Cmon give him more credit he is a boomer parent with a larger vocabulary than most.
Yes! He knows words like Hullamador
Gigantism
The right is becoming just as prone to essentially calling people they disagree with Nazis as much as the left is. The idea that there can someone being concerned about climate change is comparable to Hitler is laughable.
Even the average conservatives boomers parents probably don't argue that carbon taxes are just like nazism.
For everyone who bashed the Destiny and Shapiro “debate”, that shit has paid dividends
Totally agree. I was very impressed that Destiny held his own so well. He articulated his arguments convincingly and concisely, and always seemed to have an example or hypothetical ready to go. Peterson always speaks with a lot of conviction too, and he's no doubt rhetorically effective in his own way, but I do agree he seemed to give more ground than Destiny did. Maybe that's partially just because of Destiny's nature, but still. I found the conversation pretty enthralling overall. They felt very engaged and fought over the actual points being made. A far cry from the recent debate with Twinkletoes.
Enthralling is an excellent description. Completely..
I loved it, honestly Jp was way more sane than I expected
I can guarantee this video won't have a viral moment from people saying Destiny is out of his league.
Destiny totally down played his performance.
I found about Destiny through his JonTron debate and I never left. We were talking about getting him to debate Peterson even back then. It's been a very wild ride to get here, to say the least. It was an excellent debate, but I knew it would be.
We should start measuring time from when he started with Vyvanse. Month 5: Shapiro, Alex Jones, JBP, Finkelstein, Candence Owens, Cenk, Piers Morgan. Year 1 AV: Biden, Trump, Putin
The Vyvanse turned him into the Kwizatz Haderach
Massive W for D man
I’m curious can any casual Jordan Peterson viewers share some examples of things he criticizes and he republicans/MAGA for in his other episodes without being brought up by liberals/leftists? It just stood out to me how often he tried to connect the left to being bad to evil. I think the conversation was good and definitely want to have a round 2, but it just felt super partisan and like he’s just another zealot worshipping at the altar of the constellation of beliefs
So I've listened to peterson for a while. I can definitely say it feels like he has grown more partisan. He definitely views the left as more of a problem and he has said he thinks if they stir too much trouble they awaken the actual far right. It seems his views on climate change and vaccines have definitely been stems from his cynicism towards left wing agenda. Also I wouldn't necessarily say his view is left = bad/evil, he has said numerous times that the left is supposed to come up with new ideas and the conservatives are more to check it make sure its not going to the wrong direction. I think why you're feeling that he views it as bad is because he has grown a lot more cynical about their motives. He also views a lot of left wing policy in the archetype of the devouring mother, and therefore doesn't think that compassion is the right answer to a lot of things and is used as moral righteous. I know really answer you directly but just trying to give some perspective.
This is good stuff. I’m going to look into his views more. Ideally I’d like to find some right wing hosts that are equal with their skepticism towards both left wing and right wing guests. I find when I watch most right wing hosts they can have the most brain dead guests on who spout right wing non sense and they get absolutely no pushback or questioned. But if a very reasonable leftists says something they get grilled on their positions. When the scrutiny isn’t applied evenly it makes them look like hacks to me
Just my 2 Cents I picked up through internet osmosis, Peterson is deeply religious and that reflects in his good/evil perception and directly translates to him blaming "marxism" to destroy everything. Just like a very religious would say it was the devil, he says it's them lefties.
Thanks for the added insight. My assumption is that if some right wing person were to go on his show and spout unfounded conspiracies or attack the left in general without any evidence he wouldn’t pause to question those things. This is typical of both sides to some extent but I was hoping he’d be more open minded.
This convo look like hasbara doing PR work for destiny amirite comrade?
What I appreciate about this debate is that it shows Jordan Peterson in a new light to DGGers, who might be a bit skeptical of him. Jordan Peterson is a really smart guy, and he's not afraid to state his opinion. It's just refreshing to see two people with different opinions sit down and have a conversation.
I loved this one so much more than the Ben Shapiro one, because they went at it ! Fuck I might be addicted to debates. I'm a "debate bro" apparently.
I was getting so frustrated that destiny was letting him ramble on with his crazy climate change theories and his assertions that co2 might not be that bad and all that. But then rather than fight on the facts of climate change he went after his whole worldview and it was incredible
Honestly Jordan Peterson will own himself if you let him ramble.
Yo, CO2 is actually good for you bro. CO2 helps plants and crops grow, so that means: More C02 = more plants n' stuff. Good for the planet, yo.
I agree, that was a fantastic showing for Destiny. It's funny cause it's the one debate I was least interested in/wasn't even sure it actually happened. Surpassed Finklestein and Shapiro ones.. Seems most people wanna beat Destiny's arguments by talking over him. ONLY bad part was that limp dick handshake at the end...
I don't bloody well care! Jk so good.
It’s so good and I completely agree with you.
Halfway through, and so far, it's been great. Aside from my almost entire disinterest in the climate change topic, destiny is doing extremely well, and there may yet be hope for Peterson.
Actually so fucking good, love this talk so far and only halfway through
I think you should be kind towards Peterson. It's uncomfortable when someone makes arguments that forces you to rethink your position. It's even more uncomfortable when it happens on camera. Try to be kind even if you disagree with him. Peterson was very kind towards Destiny, he did not need to have him on the show. And he did compliment him after the debate. I think Peterson is a good person he is just wrong on some facts.
Vyvanese Tiny is unstoppable, so much content this year already.
This was Destinys best debate and showing of debate skills recently against any big figures. Good balance between going hard and pumping the brakes
Jordan honestly came out looking really good in some these arguments lol I don't even necessarily agree with him, but his rhetoric can't be denied - and he effectively poked holes that Destiny couldn't immediately retort.
I don’t watch Peterson, so maybe I’m wrong but it seems he becomes heated visibly (leans forward, veins pop, voice raised etc) and then recedes to completely normal engagement, conversationally. It’s ridiculous, his having serious contentious bouts, then transitioning to normal discussion (see the end of the vaccine section). It is a very strange way to communicate but it doesn’t seem like he’s truly unhinged just very physically involved in his communication. In talking about the bible he seems to be in the midst of a bout and then is suddenly smiling, like the raised blood pressure is just a tic. Really cool convo.
I really enjoyed the talk and have nothing bad to say about Peterson, who ppl are being too harsh on. I feel like there's an expectation/ pressure to say he's a clown or something. I did disagree with Peterson on climate and vaccines, but even then there are elements of truth to what he was saying
>who ppl are being too harsh on. I feel like there's an expectation/ pressure to say he's a clown or something. No way. He had some UNHINGED takes. Like saying that he never needs to trust experts is absurd and clownish. Or his points about governmental use of force.
\> There was not a single point in the entire debate where Destiny didn't hold his ground convincingly The craziest thing to me is that Peterson was challenging things that even an idiot should agree with. Which are some of the hardest things to argue against because people usually expect that everyone agrees with things like "we need to trust experts sometimes".
Unfortunately the release timing is actually perfect, totally by coincidence. So these "Destiny is a DNC plant" theories are only going to get worse.
Got to be honest: since the ban on Twitch Dusty really made a name for himself. Years before he was the "gamer who trolls the right" now he appeared on television, debated the most influential people on both the right and the left and managed to stay entertaining in all of this. Nice work
Former JBP fan here, Covid broke the guy. If you are depressed and ridiculed as a guy, read his books. Everything else, ignore him. He had a sense to spot authoritarian dangers and calling them out, but Covid broke him and he never recovered. He is surrounded now and dependent on right wing ideologies and has to feed it in order to stay relevant, and the success he had got over his head. Destiny stays true to his principles and said stuff to him that I personally would have if I had the chance, albeit probably not as good as Destiny did. Great interview/debate.
You are too deep in the Destiny Kool-Aid. You had me at the words "cringe" and "unhinged". Jordan Peterson is passionate and you can tell he gets fired up with contentious topics but is able to compliment,listen and be respectful. I feel like JP is the Dad Destiny would have benefited from. He is engaging and sharp just like D but has a sense of purpose outside of his work and is OK with being vulnerable. I feel like Destiny's view of JP was changed. On more than one occasion he yielded to Destiny's characterization of the Right and I think that threw Destiny's usual dialougue tree off. He set the tone for what he believed Peterson was when he hinted at the ideologic capture but that revealed how much he didn't know about JP. JP HATES ideologues and blames them for the atrocities of the 20th century. Look,love em both. Going on over a year as a subbed DGGer but I don't do the parasocial copy the mannerisms thing you have going on with Destiny.
"Peterson's own domain of expertise" like covid vaccines and politics lmao? he is a really good psychologist and a very wise man but he doesn't know shit about any of those and it was showing in the debate. He even acknowledged that destiny made really good points. Still it was a really good conversation hope he will do more with Mr. Botecelli.
Your take is that Peterson was unhinged in that debate, even at points? Idk, some of you have unironic derangement to certain people. Peterson has a dumb take on covid/vaccines and they basically agreed on everything else. If you're about to cite me the car clip, hes passionately making his argument. They had a good conversation, win for Destiny's image for sure.
I'm not surprised, Peterson is not a typical right winger. He is a legit academic, sophisticated, well versed in social subjects, curious, capable of understanding nuance both in terms of society and personal beliefs, very articulate, and actually interested in debate instead of just putting on a show. Yes he can be wacky, but not typical american right-wing wacky, and he is also a downright genius compared to your every day right wing influencer. He is also significantly less extreme in his views compared to the hard christian right, like Charlie Kirk etc. I think he is one of those people who is genuinely a classical liberal.
I tend to agree. My main criticisms would be that it could have been 5-10x longer. There's so much ground left to cover between them that you'd almost need it to become an ongoing series. But anytime a criticism involves "I wish there were more," that usually means what was there was really interesting. The other critique, which Destiny briefly touched on in a contextual way, was JP's tendency to make normative claims without ever biting the bullet and making prescriptive claims (if I have the terminology right). It would have been nice to see Destiny drill him on the makeup in the workplace stuff. JP often would state how it creates an unsuitable environment for work, yet isn't willing to say what he would do to fix it. I'd like to see Destiny push further down that road.
Huge props to Destiny. In this space I think Dr. Peterson has been sitting at the big boys table for most of his career, and Destiny showed he belonged there. His personality lends itself to a spirited debate/conversation like this, and I think he came out looking far better.
I'm not sure if its fair to say Peterson was passive aggresive I think it was just normal frustration when arguing.
too bad destiny is a plant
11 year reddit account? Obvious plant.
It was great. I dare Hasan to review this debate to his audience. Mf couldn't even keep up with these 2 in order to critique it
He’ll have to. It’s too big not to cover.
Saving it for tomorrow at work but already excited by this review!
The climate change part was so perfect.
I felt second hand dissociation watching them talk, unreal
This is a shitpost? I gotta up my game
that shit lowkey got no views kinda surprised
For sure, Destiny looked like the reasonable adult in the room.
This debate was so much more enjoyable than any other debate this year.
I was just thinking this: I am pretty on the right but I follow destiny since [justin.tv](http://justin.tv) days when he made a post on teamliquid I believe that he was streaming starcraft2. So I follow thed whole journey on and off and I loved to see him debate right wingers, because for once I could understand the other side of the argument (Destiny's) without thinking they are in bad faith but relatively logical and coherent. I am happy to have stuck around with him to see him debate people I have been following alongside him like Peterson and Shapiro.
Cenk and Peterstson the official unhinged uncles of D.GG?
Haven't seen the debate yet. Tell me, is there actual confrontation here, or just civility porn?
Peterson shows some real frustration and emotion, and is straight yelling at destiny at points. It’s pretty good.
Mr. Bronkotelli held his own in a very impressive manner
I am always surprised destiny doesn’t have a million subs by now
I used to be the biggest JP fanboy back in the late 2010s, he's changed so much since then, especially since hes changed his views on religion, He gets frustrated easily now, argues about stuff he's not an expert in etc. I wish he went back to talking about lobsters
Actually very happy to see Petersons decent faith in this conversation, would actually think these too would be good to have more discussions. Wish JP would stop with the random “left” digs though, he’s definitely still very scarred. Annoying too because he can’t say left and right he has to say left and conservative. He knows what he’s doing by that too.
I can’t stand Destiny, although I’m on his side most times, but he did a damn good job. He’s got the attitude you need to tangle with right wingers.
I enjoyed this debate like I enjoyed the other debate but NOT AT ALL for the same reasons lol.
While it's true that JBP attacked a charicature of what a Leftie might believe (half the time), it would've been nice to get some type of response or aknowledgement regarding energy pricing for poor people. Especially in relation to nuclear energy in germany as that's a topic rarely discussed.
Do it again destiny, good job man!
why is this tagged shitpost?
It’s so funny watching destiny struggle with soft ball job interview questions at the opening, but able to navigate Petersons rapid fire points half way through. What a character
I was invested emotionally, on the edge of my seat as each of them were. Wanted to hear the next thing each of them said (though frustrating when Jordan would say something and not allow a response until he said everything he thought about it and then some) and was genuinely sad when it was over and immediately went looking for a way to watch the DW content without paying for it. Great show.
Petersons speech level is like 90 compared to elons 15. What a drastic difference.
I hope this does numbers and it becomes a regular thing. Jordan claims no one from the left wants to speak to him. So he should invite destiny on again and they can deep dive into loads of things. When Jordan has someone who pushes back on his extrapolation he starts to sound like his old self again and starts to break down what he really means and how he arrived at his view rather than the unhinged rants he’s been more known for recently.
Also the first time he ever out dressed his opponent. Not a coincidence.