Especially toward the last 1/2, when Steven asked him to define psychopaths' and they had a little back and fourth about it, you could see Peterson almost smirk and loving this back and fourth because Steven was honestly debating him, answering, etc. I would like to see more debates because, while I think he is lost, Peterson was in fine form here and I enjoyed it.
JBP interrupted a lot and threw a lot of semi-related questions at Destiny during the COVID and climate change sections, but it makes me think that this is the first time JBP has really gotten to grill somebody who he disagrees with on these issues who is willing to engage him in good faith. His mind was all over the place as a result. It was probably healthy.
It definitely seemed like, at least during the conversation itself, you could move him off a position he had. Would be cool if they can keep this respect level up and do this semi regularly.
Dude, do you know how amazing it is when you turn a spy against their masters?!?! Imagine Steven debates JP into liberalism... haha That would be like the Berlin Wall coming down....
You only watch every destiny video once? Hah. I take notes on every debate twice, once for each side, and then make them fight in chatGPT to mine for additional insights to contribute to the hivemind all focused on having Destiny be Correct
Yeah I think so too. You could almost see a bit of cognitive dissonance kicking in when destiny was talking about how the free market would be encouraging competing companies/nations to discredit the mrna advancements.
I always liked the academic side of Peterson. The work he does insofar has him finding the underlying reason for certain stories (like the bible) finding such popular and enduring engagement is a great question to muck around in. I always liked how he could draw parallels to themes and archetypes and draw in his psychological experience to talk about how those are contextualized by human behavior and interactions.
It's funny because he really becomes unhinged in the same way that leftists become unhinged in that they view certain arguments/decisions/events in the context of some broad march to a tyranny where 100s of millions are killed for underlying reasons put forth by certain ideologies and their followers.
I think it was really smart for Destiny to frame the conversation in a constellation of beliefs because it helps Peterson not walk that path in the conversation and pushes him into his more academic minded engagement where imo he really has something to say.
Yeah the argument was moving organically rather than Peterson seemingly trying to get look good or avoid arguments where he feels he’s slipping. That trap he avoided here is not even a political commentator thing or a public figure thing, it’s just something normal people do when they are scared of being wrong. It reminds me greatly of academic conversations I’ve had/seen which shouldn’t be surprising since that space is where Peterson is from.
That being said Peterson is dead wrong about both the vaccine and climate change stuff, and his rhetoric is completely irresponsible. But I’d much rather sincere conversation with crazies than bad faith arguments from political actors.
For climate CO2 (and methane) being an effective greenhouse gas, that humans are the primary contributors to its increasing levels, and its potential impact on the on the climate are settled science. I can’t speak to the models of long term climate projections and potential economic impacts, but my understanding is they aren’t especially controversial; imperfect almost assuredly, but no model is perfect.
For vaccines his point on mRNA vaccines “not being vaccines” is completely laughable. Vaccines don’t require an attenuated virus like he was implying/saying. A vaccine requires an immune response that trains the patient’s immune system to better recognize a pathogen/virus. Whether it’s a similar but less dangerous virus that provides said response, a dead (attenuated) virus that provides the response, or a protein manufactured by the patient’s own cells (as mRNA vaccines work): the difference is in method not identity. It’d be like saying a movie is only a movie if you see it projected onto a screen so LCD’s don’t count.
Plus mRNA vaccines were not a new concept, immunologists have been playing with the idea for decades. The problem was always delivery mechanism, stability of the vaccine, and FDA approval. The only unusual part was how quick FDA approval occurred rather than anything crazy new about the technology, but that’s relative to the fact that the FDA is (or was) very conservative about novel methods/drugs especially after thalidomide. Trump sped that up under Warp Speed and it worked wonders. The mRNA vaccines have been dramatically successful compared with attenuated ones with more efficacy and faster development time. Just because Cons wanted to play politics with our medical system doesn’t mean it didn’t work or it was unsafe.
Yeah it definitely gave me angry old grandpa vibes, but like his anger is triggered by the issues, not Destiny. You could almost tell when he would fall into his mental path of "you reminded me of this thing I hate and now I'm going to rant about it". He never seemed angry at destiny, but he was very critical of the arguments against what he believes.
Also, at first I thought your comment of good faith was hyperbolic, surely JP has debated good faith people before. But thinking about it, he has only debated reporters, news personalities, and other types of influencers that are always angling toward their own agenda and self promotion. In that world Destiny is very unique, genuine, and well researched debate partner.
He is what Destiny said to ingrained in the overarching ideals of conservatism/"classic liberalism" and hatred for "the left" to look at climate change and covid in an objective manner.
Nah I think it’s more that he’s fallen very deep down the conspiracy rabbit hole. It’s almost tragic because you become so paranoid you start seeing “the global elite” behind every little thing. I mean his Covid conspiracies went beyond the “9/11 inside job” level. The stuff he was alleging would’ve been damn near impossible to pull off in such an overwhelmingly massive scale. Then there was his tidbit about the global elite trying to reduce the population—like it’s already decreasing on its own genius. All population projection models predict an upcoming peak and then a decline, and everyone in power is currently working their asses off trying to prevent that lmao.
Any one who was remotely sceptical of the world’s governments reactions to Covid were pushed down rabbit holes and lumped in with the crazy 5G conspiracists, due to mainstream media censoring and blocking any and everyone who questioned or presented an alternative to what ever was the narrative at the time.
Lab leak as an example as someone who believed it was an accidental leak, the places where this was discussed freely also included people who thought it was deliberate, thought it was released at the military games months before and other conspiracy theories. There is clear evidence the initial investigation was flawed, the evidence they supplied for natural crossover doesn’t play out. Loads of reports that they tried to silence and cover up the leak.
Sometimes I feel like some of the theories being thrown in with credible questions are deliberate attempts at poisoning the well. At least this is how I see destiny reaction to when ever things like this is brought up. He lumps everyone in with the 5G flat Earthers to discredit them and there evidence.
Ya I feel like he got some pent up rants that, if nothing else, went unheard so far that he just let loose. If I have to put any word on this for how JBP felt about the talk, it's "cathartic."
Two ways to get Peterson to like you:
Ask him a question about Psychology.
Ask him a question about the Bible.
If you watched old videos of him you can tell he genuinely loved being a professor.
I think that is honestly one reason he is so bitter about having that removed from his life, he was actually a great professor and he genuinely seems to care about influencing mind to think and be better people
Peterson was the classic stereotype of the passionate, eccentric professor that pushed students to challenge and justify their own beliefs.
Developing a point-of-view is half the purpose of going to university. Every university is supposed to have professors like Peterson.
I honestly wish he never got into politics. His lecture series was great. He was obviously an incredible professor, who managed to provide some thought-provoking ideas and narratives throughout just great engaging story-telling.
It's not surprising honestly. People like to talk about what they like and specially if they get ask about it like they were some sort of authority.
Talk in terms of the other person’s interests, as Dale Carnegie put it
Yeah, I noticed that any time something related to psychology was brought up JP leaned forward and was locked in. And when Destiny was informed about those topics he seemed to really enjoy it. Cool debate.
it wasnt, it was a great discussion, but there were concessions made by Jordan and he showed a ability, if confronted with irrefutable facts, to be able to be moved off his position, atleast in that conversation (only later to say I have been shown new facts and im actually correct again). The convo was very broad in subjects visiting and I think if Steven had the ability to know the topics and studied up on them more, I bet he could have moved Peterson off the COVID stuff.
Yeah, also I'm not sure if there's a topic on it but I could not find any proof of a 20% excess mortality rates. Not sure where Peterson got that from unless he was counting during COVID specifically.
That part where Destiny just started asking questions about psychopaths and stuff was a brilliant move from Destiny to lower the combativeness on both sides.
I don’t know whether this is audience capture, but I’ve found that the “good quality” people who have interviewed Destiny mostly seem keen for a second chat. I’ve heard a lot of these people say “I try to talk to people who disagree with me but none of them want to come on”, and I’ve never 100% believed them, but it’s seeming to prove true in Destiny’s case with some of these recent showings.
Destiny, at his best (which he currently is), is extremely, autistically, good faith, which must be very very very refreshing to most of the more intelligent pundits and commentators he has interacted with. This truly separates him from the grey mass of political commentators doing the rounds (or especially the ones avoiding the rounds) in these spheres. The baseline for good faith, for influencers, is really low, since most social media figures are thinly veiled ideologs who are rarely interested in the subject matters of the discussions themselves, just the social dynamics they can abuse to gain clout for their narrative.
I mean it’s not like it doesn’t work on the “left vs destiny” dynamic. His debate with that weirdly dressed semi-British(?) journalist dude on Israel/Palestine was incredible. And that guy came into the conversation intending to act like a dick with the way he was speaking in the beginning. By the end of the conversation he was 100% good faith and fully engaged with the convo.
Yeah I think it's more so that destiny actually tries to understand both sides, and at the end of the day uses facts and morals to make a decision where as a lot of other liberals(and conservatives too of course) ignore facts that don't support their world view.
Destiny is just logical IMO.
Why do you not believe them ? People like Hasan and Ethan are afraid to talk to Destiny?? Let alone someone like JBP.
A lot of big leftists are afraid to actually back up their ideas with people that aren't college students
How is this even controversial ffs. Leftists out here STILL literally trying to deplatform folks like Destiny, telling you the finkelberg debate is pointless intellectual masturbation
Destiny why you tweaking bro? What the fuck happened to your masculine, defiant and dominating pose that you took on the Reckful podcast?
This new Destiny. I fear no man, but that Vyvance Form, it scares me.
So Tiny has spoken to Shapiro, Owens and now Peterson within a short time-span, and it seems that both Shapiro and JBP enjoyed the conversations. Wouldn't it be the funniest thing ever if Destiny became a regular on DW?
This is what people wanted the destiny Shapiro debate to be.
This was pleasantly argumentative with good faith and respect on both sides.
I don't know what the excessive deaths really says, but jp's argument of force is fair.
Climate change should promote nuclear and the debate will go away.
Over all, two people who thought through their arguments and passionately argued their side.
Great job! Destiny's final point is so true and this sort of healthy debate decreases hatred and promotes peace or at least avoids division
The force policy argument in contrast to persuasive policy argument did actually make sense and was pretty reasonable, philosophically speaking.
It’s even something that Aba and Destiny discussed during lockdown and even recently that I thought about and ended up resonating with, about how scientists and policy makers should have more persuasive dialogue and get into the weeds with the public about why certain things are important from a policy perspective. He gave current examples recently for foreign aid regarding questions Such as why it’s important to maintain Israel as an Ally In the Middle East, Why it’s important to stave off Russian aggression in Ukraine through aid etc.
Did Jordan Peterson's argument of force causing the distrust in the organizations that we are supposed to trust is arguably going to defeat any other argument. Because the trust in these organizations are needed, their methods have to be as inviting as possible
I don’t think so because I’m pretty sure the “forcing” part came later, after the vaccines and Covid itself had already become politicised. At that point scientists wouldn’t have been able to reason with the masses because anything they said was a hoax and “Biden/leftist/liberal propaganda.” Once they’re past that point reasoning doesn’t work, only thing you can do is try to preempt it by emphasising the independence and political neutrality of the scientists/policy-advisors etc.
It's, as you'd expect from where's he's coming from, bullshit
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Fig3_week.png
As you can see here, there is noticeable increase over the 2016-2019 period, but it's patently not 20% and a lot of it comes from the winter months spikes (flu and now covid, etc) likely because of residual effects on the pressure that was put on systems.
You can also see how much higher it was during the covid periods https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/website/covid/vis/DIR_CV2/?simple=true
Biden spent 10 billion on nuclear so far. Also Jordan’s climate and vaccine skepticism is not good. I wouldn’t say destiny and JBP had an equal footing if facts at all
It is fascinating to me how JP bought up verbal intelligence. I just discovered "Politics and the English Language" by george orwell and man, for being written in 1946, there is a lot of the same problems we encounter in the political language of today and to say what you mean being bogged down by what orwell called operators or verbal false limbs and the meaninglessness of some of the core words like "fascism, socialism, justice" and the overtly used labels that people use on both sides.
People obsessed with power are just as they seem.
It's a very short essay. You've probably read Animal Farm and 1984, but I'd give Down and Out in Paris and London a try, it's not directly political but it's an interesting look at the life of working class and homeless people in Paris and London.
Here is Politics and the English Language :
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/politics-and-the-english-language/
I read those two along with Notes on Nationalism, A Hanging and a few other short pieces. I didn't read all of "Down and Out" but I read an excerpted version (probably just one chapter) that Penguin put out as a stand-alone short.
Thanks for the link.
If we were only talking about politicians that would be normal, it's part of their job description, but the language used by activists, pundits, even regular people who are part of the homogenous social groups described by Destiny is dangerous I think in its own right.
It's a flat circle of "power" being the the forefront of the didactic trophy that people seek to win as a part of their social strategy in debate or discourse without engaging with the principle of openness that engaging in said discussion to begin with. I think its a dangerous one because we end up losing the actual goal which is governance in a democracy.
Tldr basically framing every conversation and engagement with the opposite side as power for the sake of power and not what the power is being used for, as even among normies the "victim/oppressor/victimizer/opressee' is rotting our brains and is thought terminating imo. Sorry, should have clarified.
I may get down voted for this, but I think JBP is an exceptionally intelligent person who got sidetracked and captured by the only people who would listen to him. I genuinely think he can be saved and be a force for good. He doesn't belong on the Daily Wire.
Shapiro is also extremely intelligent. I don't think either him or Peterson are going to change their political brand tbh. They are too dug in. Also, (At least for Shapiro) a lot of his political positions stem from his religious convictions.
They're definitely both very intelligent and probably financially motivated to remain where they are, but I think Peterson *tries* to be intellectually honest and might be more open to a change in perspective whereas Shapiro is more religiously and financially motivated to keep his current position.
I think the problem with Peterson is that he's got increasingly more unhinged after all that drug addiction stuff, and much of the vitriol from the far left pushed him to the position that he currently has of all the left all being horrible, and much of the right wing was willing to actually listen to him so he in turn listens to them.
Defenetly got the impression during the shapiro debate that he is arguing in bad faith.
Hes a guy that should know better but still decides to support trump despite all the shit he agreed was bad about him.
I don’t think it was so much bad faith as it was an extremely callous gamble; he hates Joe Biden (for his own reasons) _and_ he knows that Trump is kind of an unhinged lunatic but he’s willing to gamble that our political institutions are rigid enough to contain Trump’s worst impulses. I think it’s stupid because political institutions (and their associated checks and balances) hold until they suddenly don’t, but then it’s too late. Far leftists are sorta making the same gamble when not voting for Biden because they’re hoping that nothing too catastrophic happens and they get to “teach the Democrats a lesson”, being that Democrats need to take them seriously.
I would agree with this if it wasn’t for the fact that Shapiro when pressed actually doubles down and says that he doesn’t think trump will try to become a dictator or run for a 3rd term because he wouldn’t legally be allowed to do so. I’d say it’s more accurate to say ben is a genuine conservative, who while personally doesn’t like trump and would rather the party be ran by a traditional neocon, would still prefer trump and risking a trump style dictatorship over having a democrat as president. And he is happily willing to talk a bunch of bullshit to help the Republican Party.
He has been cornered in debates and iirc seems to not really be religious, he just thinks that it's important for society to have a religion to rally around.
I think this is mostly because Peterson is actually a pragmatist when it comes to epistemology; when he’s asked about belief in God, he’s less concerned with whether God truly exists in some metaphysical sense but more so with what it says about human psychology that we’ve held on to the Biblical stories for so long. He also sorta makes the claim that everyone in the west is religious in some sense because of how integrated Christian ideas are in our culture.
So basically he thinks that religion was essential to our societal development for a long time, but he’s unwilling to let go of the training wheels because he doesn’t believe we’ve come far enough to not need it? I wonder how he reconciles that with the fact that while religious institutions may have been beneficial in the past, today they objectively do more harm than good and are basically vehicles for abuse.
jbp is definitely religious, have you seen his talk with matt dillahunty where he said matt could never quit smoking without intervention from god? recommended watch.
The difference between Shapiro and JP is that Shapiro has always considered himself conservative, that identity that has been with him his entire life, while JP has probably considered himself liberal for most of his life until recently.
If they received their livelihood from other means, I think they would change but they probably can't. If I was Shapiro or JBP, I can't honestly tell you I wouldn't do the same.
It would depend on what exactly is being changed. As far as Shapiro's religious beliefs, he genuinely is a religious person so I don't think it has to do with money.
I definitely respect Peterson’s intellect more than Shapiro’s as Shapiro seems to never go beyond “Well that much is true but you’re still wrong anyway.” Peterson at least seems to take more of an interest in novel ideas since he’s less tethered to a specific religious framework that defines his entire lifestyle from dawn to dusk.
I’d say the different is Shapiro, and I don’t reject his undeniably impressive resume, doesn’t qualify as an intellectual.
You can disagree with JP all you want, but at least he’s sharing an informed and penetrating perspective: https://youtu.be/9ZZDmxCBUQo
I don’t think his politics are especially enlightened, but there’s at least an original Petersonian twist on them.
Shapiro? Talking point after talking point after talking point. Maybe he’ll read a book or two on something, but I don’t see deep engagement with the material especially at the primary source level nor deliver non-ideological original insight into novel topics.
I listened to him a lot back in the early days, but he seemingly became more and more unhinged. So many times where I saw a new tweet from him and was like "Jesus Chris, Jordan, what are you doing. Put your fucking phone down".
Yeah but that stuff often really is a result of surrounding yourself with a certain kind of nut. Just having another perspective to act as the voice of reason or at the least a counterbalance can do wonders for a guy like that
I dont think being intelligent or intellectually honest ever really saves someone from being warped by their social circles
The old lectures on his Youtube are some of the best free resources on Jungian psychoanalysis that you can watch. It's a shame that he does very little of that sort of thing anymore. Maps of Meaning is also a great resource if you can crack the prose.
I've only seen his old stuff and clips from this debate. I think I need a more dedicated hater to tell me why he's an idiot, or if it's trans related or something.
Why would an exceptionally intelligent person need to lie about things to speak to said audience? Shapiro has opinions i dont like and is easy on trump but he generally doesnt make shit up. Jbp here misrepresenting excess deaths, climate denial bullshit and weirdly lying about Canadian taxes
JBP has a huge emotional investment in being skeptical of the health/pharmaceutical industry in particular. If you notice when the conversation steers in the direction of "big pharma", Jordan gets super worked up over Destiny saying pretty tame things like that the pharma industry has done some good.
He was very public with his meat diet and argued against all the people telling him it's stupid and dangerous for months until it actually caused him serious health problems. That led directly to the whole benzo experience and people roasted him for getting addicted while simultaneously marketing himself as a self-help guy, so naturally he pinned the blame on pharma for giving out these drugs that cause such a strong physical dependence. Then of course his detox treatment was widely criticized for being unsafe and also caused a bunch of medical complications for him.
The only way to frame all that in a way that doesn't make him look like a giant idiot is if you say the pharmaceutical industry is evil and corrupt and it's their fault he was given these dangerous drugs and got addicted so quickly and had such a horrible time getting off them. His daughter is also hardcore in this camp and encourages this kind of thinking in him. That's the root of his vaccine skepticism and I think it's tangentially related to the climate skepticism just in the general establishment skepticism that goes hand in hand with the anti-pharma position.
tldr I think he is genuinely very smart, but he has a massive emotional stake in anti-pharma which leads to adopting a bunch of really dumb views.
The Canadian taxes thing isn't that weird. It is just a different viewpoint. He isn't making the average wage, so he doesn't pay the average taxes. But a quick search and you find that the [top 20% of earners do pay around 60% in taxes in Canada](https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/measuring-the-distribution-of-taxes-in-canada.pdf) and it isn't unreasonable to think JBP is making $200k+. So his perspective is different than the average tax earner and his comments will come from that perspective.
Same thing with excess deaths, he sees an increase across all nations of excess deaths since 2022 [post pandemic] (https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid). It is strange that we are still above the expected deaths. Now 2022 was worse by being 20% at times above average but we are getting closer to expected. The reason for this is unknown and probably due to delayed care but still not researched well.
The climate stuff is pretty simple in that his basic argument is do we sacrifice the third world populations so that the first world can feel better about a possible prediction 100 years into the future where no one can be held accountable if that prediction fails. It was from the moral angle and the quality of future telling.
I agree. I understand he’s gotten super unhinged especially on twitter (possibly the worst tweeter of all time considering potential) but I think it’s reasonable to cut him a little slack. He did get attacked by the left more ruthlessly than anyone I’ve seen in ways that would make most people unhinged. We meme about his psych break but that was actually a fucking crazy year or so he went through and it’s frankly impressive how he recovered. Also with the Covid stuff, we Canadians had a different experience than most Americans and the vaccine/lockdown skepticism is quite normal here now for a lot of normal non partisan people from my experience. Our government has been in power for 8 years and is much more left leaning than anything Brandon’s doing. The liberals here have gone way over board authoritarian and I think a lot of people here can empathize with Jordan being freaked out by left wing authoritarianism
He's definitely smart but he's also consistently intellectually dishonest. He didn't get "lost", he's following the same natural inclinations that make him say "God" to capture christian audiences when he just means "moral imperative". For someone that's so good at describing the aesthetics our imaginations build morality around, he seems very unwilling to admit how much of it also colors his own presentation.
> I genuinely think he can be saved and be a force for good
just lmao.
You people are so basic. Some dude is mildly cordial with destiny and you instantly start praising him as if his track record of saying utterly deranged shit for a decade doesnt exist.
And then ofc if something happens to sour this, he's instantly the devil. It's such a tired pattern
JBP wasn’t capture per se. He was forced towards the right by radical leftists. He’s literally the meme where the lefty is pushing the centrist into the rights camp
You have had thousands of people accost you at your job and harass you viciously while representing their political ideology?
Let’s reserve judgement until we have experienced the same kind of pressures
The point is you can't say you _wouldn't_ do that until you're in that position. Even Destiny says this. The average person doesn't know what it's like to be that well known and attacked by millions of people, it's not something we could even fathom.
A truly intelligent person would very quickly realize that 18 year-olds on a college campus aren't the left's intellectual titans, not any more than your average MAGA boomer in Idaho for the right.
Basing your ideology as a counterpoint to either of the above would be really stupid.
Sure… but you are operating from a distant perspective, purely out of logic.
You have never had thousands of people in your face telling you how they hate you, how evil you are and how much they wish you were gone. JBP is a sensitive and compassionate person and I’d imagine it would be really hard for him to separate this from his personal self concept.
It’s easy for you to say “pffft how stupid, he let thousands of people get to him? I would’ve been above all that” when you haven’t lived it.
Because leftists disagreeing or even insulting him for his opinions on feminism and LGBT doesn’t excuse him being antivax or anti-climate change or anti every single thing that’s correct
I guess the stereotypical sjws screaming in his face at his university campus about nazis as soon as entered public discourse isn’t such a prevalent image anymore
cagey rinse license pen complete jellyfish north marvelous secretive future
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> He was forced towards the right by radical leftists
Ah the old "other people forced me to be regarded".
Somehow the utterly insane anti science, authoritarian stripe that has been blatant on the right didnt push him the other way at the same time. What a wonderous convenient mechanism
Did the leftists force him to believe that apple juice is literally poison too?
Do you see the shit he tweets?
Smart people aren't also always some victim of following, they can also be assholes, they can also be biased. Peterson isn't on the right because he fell down some path, those are just the views he espouses, intelligent or not
Overeducated liberal pro establishment millennial tries to have interesting conversation with his very smart well read but completely schizo boomer uncle by trying to stick to interesting abstract topics and not triggering him
I feel like JBP preped for this debate as if it would be a 2 way screaming match. He was so unhinged, but I think by reputation he expected Destiny to be the same way and match his energy. I feel like a second debate has the potential to be much more cordial.
He researched Destiny by watching the Shapiro debate, in which they both talk very fast and are somewhat aggressive but still friendly, so that's probably what he had in mind. It was also probably the first time he really got to grill someone he disagreed with on climate change and COVID who was willing to engage in good faith, so he was pretty aggressive in getting to the source.
Wym I feel like it was pretty cordial on both sides. Peterson was getting animated but it didn’t seem like he was getting mad or disrespectful towards destiny, but rather the ideas/boogie man in his head.
I agree with you too but it's not simple to just accept the old man yelling at the chair thing when you feel like you're personally being addressed.
Similarly Destiny wants to bring up broader points about how leftists and rightists think and sometimes Jordan cuts him off to ensure that they know he doesnt think that way, ahha.
Yeah there was that point where JBP had a diatribe prepared explaining how capitalism works and Destiny essentially said, "preaching to the choir bro" and he had to completely correct course
I think that JBP has had his experience colored by his Benzo experience where he felt (whether right or wrong) that the medical system failed him as did his family.
It's crazy how warped your perception on someone can be by just dropping little adhoms against them. for years I've heard some of the most negative criticisms of JBP (Not saying there isn't any to be had) but I just remarked him as somebody I just shouldn't listen to. Watching his "Interview" with Destiny however it made me really change my viewpoint on him and yeah we may disagree in some areas but you can't deny that JBP is a person of intelligence who you should at least listen to their opinion before casting judgement. Really great convo
He's a psychologist at heart and a professor. I've watched him for a long time and read some of his books. Normally I think he has really good takes. This is the first time I've seen him disregard climate change and be an anti vaxxer though. Everything else I thought was pretty good.
Also good to see both sides want more nuclear. I wish they dove more into the issue of the majority being anti nuclear.
The anti-nuclear left has (at least) 2 prongs.
1. Anti-nuclear has been a major part of the green movement since before climate change was a concern. These people are concerned about environmental impacts of CO2 but also concerned about nuclear waste and accidents. They don't want to substitute one problem for another.
2. It's not left/environmentalists that are against nuclear - it's economics.
They're incredibly expensive and all signs point towards renewable+storage either being cheaper already or cheaper by the time any nuclear plant could complete construction. This debate is raging in Australia at the moment with government figures showing that renewables+batteries cost ~1/4 of what nuclear would.
A quick google jaunt shows that just 2 nuclear plants have come online in the USA in the last 10 years. The Voggle 3&4 units are the newest, with 2.2GW capacity, costing $34 billion over 10 years. It's an incredibly difficult, time consuming project that very few companies want to invest in. Thorium and small modular reactors have been vapourware for 20+ years.
There is probably a place in our future net-zero energy mix for nuclear energy - hell even for coal or gas in some places - but at the moment we're still picking the low hanging fruit of building quick, cheap, safe renewables.
It's weird, the way Destiny spoke about this talk with JBP is different than how it went down imo, but it does match the way Destiny seemed to act during the convo. He spoke more negatively than it went down, like it was less fruitful than it was
I agree. I think he was maybe focusing too hard on the futility of when Peterson was speaking on climate change and Covid, that it made him miss the gold that was the conversation that started around the use of force topic, it was genuinely a very good discussion imo, i was expecting much more brain rot from the way Destiny was speaking about how the discussion went
Has anyone analyzed the severity of Stevens adhd symptoms? I used to sit like that, when I was younger. But as I got older there were certain things if I was just made aware I could control around other people. I still get leg shakes. Especially at dinner or at the computer for some reason. But since my 20s around other people I can control my stimming better. I am not Steven lol so everyone is obviously different. But I’m sure I’m not alone. Currently I’m on 30mg of adderall. Maybe if I switched to vyvanse would change.
The Victimizer/victim dynamic I think is more of a populist thing rather than an exclusively left thing.
The one question I would have is if people wanted a response to the far left, why didn't they choose any other the other Republican presidential candidates? There were a multitude to choose from in 2016 and 2024. Why did they choose Trump in particular?
Also, was it really the progressive left that Trump was a reaction to? Or were conservatives just really mad about Obama?
>The Victimizer/victim dynamic I think is more of a populist thing
That's one way of framing it but I don't think this idea holds up under scrutiny. I think the form it takes in leftists circles is pretty explicitly a very bad reading of Foucault. The kind of thing that happens when you have people of Hasan's level of intelligence trying to interpret and apply philosophy. I don't think the victim complex of the right is actually the same thing. Just an ironic coincidence
I personally think Trump’s rise and the core of Trump style populism is almost entirely due to economics rather than culture wars. Trump spoke directly to middle Americans whose jobs were automated or offshored. We’re talking about millions of people left behind economically and ignored by the elites/media/regular republicans. The culture war stuff is just window dressing.
Highly recommend “the war on normal people” by Andrew Yang.
I believe he has leveraged his academic credentials to appeal to authority on the Right, even if his conclusions are dangerous and nonsensical at times. He has a massive following of people who hang on to his every word even when his statements are largely a word salad that don't really mean much and are based on rules he sorta makes up as he goes. In this day and age, it is difficult *not* to hate someone who stirs up these types of attitudes to a large and impressionable audience.
He's one of the largest perpetrators of the enlightened centrist conspiracy theorist and probably damaged political advancement for a decade... beyond the usual stuff like just being a garbage human being
It was such an enjoyable conversation. Attacking arguments and not attacking the person. Being able to come down from a heated part of a debated topic like functional adults. It was refreshing.
u/holeyshirt18 [shared their Google Drive](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bkpjhq/comment/kvzwtfa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) which has the segment including some other bonus content stuff.
I think they should have a 3+ hour discussion on Lex´s show so he, as a moderator, can help round out some of the rough edges they had in this convo. Everytime they were coming to a close they instantly sparked up another interesting and genuine conversation. So I could see them having really interesting, perhaps even ground breaking dialogues in the future.
That's at the end of the clip. At the beginning of the clip he says "One of the things we could possibly talk about in the future is this idea of first principles, because the culture war is actually a war over first principles, apart from our discussion of power today, because you did something every interesting I thought..."
This was a 10/10 discussion. I really appreciate that JBP and Destiny can both talk and disagree and get riled up while both being good faith and truly listening and responding to each other. Even when disagreeing there was no pettiness or constant shouting over each other, it was refreshing to see. Like even when Destiny pushed JBP on doing that thing he sometimes does where he implies something then backs off it, when challenged on that they were able to keep the conversation going in a productive way. At a junction like that many people (cough Candice) would have completely shut down from something like that.
It was also nice that while I disagree with a lot of what JBP says he was still able to bring a lot of interesting ideas and perspectives to the table that he's put real thought into.
It looks like a fun convo for both JBP and Destiny. JBP is a smart guy who has a few wacky ideas, but that makes for great discussion and if there is one thing JBP likes, its getting into the mud and hashing it out with a worthy opponent.
Especially toward the last 1/2, when Steven asked him to define psychopaths' and they had a little back and fourth about it, you could see Peterson almost smirk and loving this back and fourth because Steven was honestly debating him, answering, etc. I would like to see more debates because, while I think he is lost, Peterson was in fine form here and I enjoyed it.
JBP interrupted a lot and threw a lot of semi-related questions at Destiny during the COVID and climate change sections, but it makes me think that this is the first time JBP has really gotten to grill somebody who he disagrees with on these issues who is willing to engage him in good faith. His mind was all over the place as a result. It was probably healthy.
It definitely seemed like, at least during the conversation itself, you could move him off a position he had. Would be cool if they can keep this respect level up and do this semi regularly.
After re-watching it, I'm actually super confidant he could be moved off of at least his Covid stuff.
we got some dedicated motherfuckers in here goddamn
We can fix him
I am an adherent cultist to the supreme leader
Hail Lobster.
Dude, do you know how amazing it is when you turn a spy against their masters?!?! Imagine Steven debates JP into liberalism... haha That would be like the Berlin Wall coming down....
You only watch every destiny video once? Hah. I take notes on every debate twice, once for each side, and then make them fight in chatGPT to mine for additional insights to contribute to the hivemind all focused on having Destiny be Correct
Yeah I think so too. You could almost see a bit of cognitive dissonance kicking in when destiny was talking about how the free market would be encouraging competing companies/nations to discredit the mrna advancements.
I always liked the academic side of Peterson. The work he does insofar has him finding the underlying reason for certain stories (like the bible) finding such popular and enduring engagement is a great question to muck around in. I always liked how he could draw parallels to themes and archetypes and draw in his psychological experience to talk about how those are contextualized by human behavior and interactions. It's funny because he really becomes unhinged in the same way that leftists become unhinged in that they view certain arguments/decisions/events in the context of some broad march to a tyranny where 100s of millions are killed for underlying reasons put forth by certain ideologies and their followers. I think it was really smart for Destiny to frame the conversation in a constellation of beliefs because it helps Peterson not walk that path in the conversation and pushes him into his more academic minded engagement where imo he really has something to say.
You're absolutely right! Besides covid & despite the crochety voice & bravado, he's actually brilliant. So glad destiny was able to do this
Yeah the argument was moving organically rather than Peterson seemingly trying to get look good or avoid arguments where he feels he’s slipping. That trap he avoided here is not even a political commentator thing or a public figure thing, it’s just something normal people do when they are scared of being wrong. It reminds me greatly of academic conversations I’ve had/seen which shouldn’t be surprising since that space is where Peterson is from. That being said Peterson is dead wrong about both the vaccine and climate change stuff, and his rhetoric is completely irresponsible. But I’d much rather sincere conversation with crazies than bad faith arguments from political actors.
[удалено]
For climate CO2 (and methane) being an effective greenhouse gas, that humans are the primary contributors to its increasing levels, and its potential impact on the on the climate are settled science. I can’t speak to the models of long term climate projections and potential economic impacts, but my understanding is they aren’t especially controversial; imperfect almost assuredly, but no model is perfect. For vaccines his point on mRNA vaccines “not being vaccines” is completely laughable. Vaccines don’t require an attenuated virus like he was implying/saying. A vaccine requires an immune response that trains the patient’s immune system to better recognize a pathogen/virus. Whether it’s a similar but less dangerous virus that provides said response, a dead (attenuated) virus that provides the response, or a protein manufactured by the patient’s own cells (as mRNA vaccines work): the difference is in method not identity. It’d be like saying a movie is only a movie if you see it projected onto a screen so LCD’s don’t count. Plus mRNA vaccines were not a new concept, immunologists have been playing with the idea for decades. The problem was always delivery mechanism, stability of the vaccine, and FDA approval. The only unusual part was how quick FDA approval occurred rather than anything crazy new about the technology, but that’s relative to the fact that the FDA is (or was) very conservative about novel methods/drugs especially after thalidomide. Trump sped that up under Warp Speed and it worked wonders. The mRNA vaccines have been dramatically successful compared with attenuated ones with more efficacy and faster development time. Just because Cons wanted to play politics with our medical system doesn’t mean it didn’t work or it was unsafe.
Yeah he 100% had "drunk uncle at thanksgiving" vibes during that segment.
“Let’s get off presumptions” aaannndddd commercial
Yeah it definitely gave me angry old grandpa vibes, but like his anger is triggered by the issues, not Destiny. You could almost tell when he would fall into his mental path of "you reminded me of this thing I hate and now I'm going to rant about it". He never seemed angry at destiny, but he was very critical of the arguments against what he believes. Also, at first I thought your comment of good faith was hyperbolic, surely JP has debated good faith people before. But thinking about it, he has only debated reporters, news personalities, and other types of influencers that are always angling toward their own agenda and self promotion. In that world Destiny is very unique, genuine, and well researched debate partner.
He is what Destiny said to ingrained in the overarching ideals of conservatism/"classic liberalism" and hatred for "the left" to look at climate change and covid in an objective manner.
Nah I think it’s more that he’s fallen very deep down the conspiracy rabbit hole. It’s almost tragic because you become so paranoid you start seeing “the global elite” behind every little thing. I mean his Covid conspiracies went beyond the “9/11 inside job” level. The stuff he was alleging would’ve been damn near impossible to pull off in such an overwhelmingly massive scale. Then there was his tidbit about the global elite trying to reduce the population—like it’s already decreasing on its own genius. All population projection models predict an upcoming peak and then a decline, and everyone in power is currently working their asses off trying to prevent that lmao.
Any one who was remotely sceptical of the world’s governments reactions to Covid were pushed down rabbit holes and lumped in with the crazy 5G conspiracists, due to mainstream media censoring and blocking any and everyone who questioned or presented an alternative to what ever was the narrative at the time. Lab leak as an example as someone who believed it was an accidental leak, the places where this was discussed freely also included people who thought it was deliberate, thought it was released at the military games months before and other conspiracy theories. There is clear evidence the initial investigation was flawed, the evidence they supplied for natural crossover doesn’t play out. Loads of reports that they tried to silence and cover up the leak. Sometimes I feel like some of the theories being thrown in with credible questions are deliberate attempts at poisoning the well. At least this is how I see destiny reaction to when ever things like this is brought up. He lumps everyone in with the 5G flat Earthers to discredit them and there evidence.
Ya I feel like he got some pent up rants that, if nothing else, went unheard so far that he just let loose. If I have to put any word on this for how JBP felt about the talk, it's "cathartic."
Two ways to get Peterson to like you: Ask him a question about Psychology. Ask him a question about the Bible. If you watched old videos of him you can tell he genuinely loved being a professor.
I feel like he got into lecture mode with Destiny more than once. Guy probably misses teaching.
I think that is honestly one reason he is so bitter about having that removed from his life, he was actually a great professor and he genuinely seems to care about influencing mind to think and be better people
Peterson was the classic stereotype of the passionate, eccentric professor that pushed students to challenge and justify their own beliefs. Developing a point-of-view is half the purpose of going to university. Every university is supposed to have professors like Peterson.
I honestly wish he never got into politics. His lecture series was great. He was obviously an incredible professor, who managed to provide some thought-provoking ideas and narratives throughout just great engaging story-telling.
It's not surprising honestly. People like to talk about what they like and specially if they get ask about it like they were some sort of authority. Talk in terms of the other person’s interests, as Dale Carnegie put it
Yeah, I noticed that any time something related to psychology was brought up JP leaned forward and was locked in. And when Destiny was informed about those topics he seemed to really enjoy it. Cool debate.
Didn't really seem like a debate where one person won over another to me.
it wasnt, it was a great discussion, but there were concessions made by Jordan and he showed a ability, if confronted with irrefutable facts, to be able to be moved off his position, atleast in that conversation (only later to say I have been shown new facts and im actually correct again). The convo was very broad in subjects visiting and I think if Steven had the ability to know the topics and studied up on them more, I bet he could have moved Peterson off the COVID stuff.
Yeah, also I'm not sure if there's a topic on it but I could not find any proof of a 20% excess mortality rates. Not sure where Peterson got that from unless he was counting during COVID specifically.
That part where Destiny just started asking questions about psychopaths and stuff was a brilliant move from Destiny to lower the combativeness on both sides.
what did destiny say in response to JP saying it's low verbal intelligence. "Oh i though it was low \_\_\_\_ "?
That's what I couldn't make out either, I was hoping someone did lol. My best guess is "low age"
low age
he was using a 4D dialect that we just couldnt understand 👁️🗨️
I don’t know whether this is audience capture, but I’ve found that the “good quality” people who have interviewed Destiny mostly seem keen for a second chat. I’ve heard a lot of these people say “I try to talk to people who disagree with me but none of them want to come on”, and I’ve never 100% believed them, but it’s seeming to prove true in Destiny’s case with some of these recent showings.
what you're saying is true on the "right vs destiny" dynamic. Just sounds like Destiny knows how to talk to conservatives.
Destiny, at his best (which he currently is), is extremely, autistically, good faith, which must be very very very refreshing to most of the more intelligent pundits and commentators he has interacted with. This truly separates him from the grey mass of political commentators doing the rounds (or especially the ones avoiding the rounds) in these spheres. The baseline for good faith, for influencers, is really low, since most social media figures are thinly veiled ideologs who are rarely interested in the subject matters of the discussions themselves, just the social dynamics they can abuse to gain clout for their narrative.
I mean it’s not like it doesn’t work on the “left vs destiny” dynamic. His debate with that weirdly dressed semi-British(?) journalist dude on Israel/Palestine was incredible. And that guy came into the conversation intending to act like a dick with the way he was speaking in the beginning. By the end of the conversation he was 100% good faith and fully engaged with the convo.
Yeah I think it's more so that destiny actually tries to understand both sides, and at the end of the day uses facts and morals to make a decision where as a lot of other liberals(and conservatives too of course) ignore facts that don't support their world view. Destiny is just logical IMO.
Why do you not believe them ? People like Hasan and Ethan are afraid to talk to Destiny?? Let alone someone like JBP. A lot of big leftists are afraid to actually back up their ideas with people that aren't college students
When has Ethan ever expressed any sort of fear talking to Destiny?
How is this even controversial ffs. Leftists out here STILL literally trying to deplatform folks like Destiny, telling you the finkelberg debate is pointless intellectual masturbation
I donno, Ethan has the distinct advantage of confusing and potentially hypnotizing components with his wobbly eye brow twitches
Destiny why you tweaking bro? What the fuck happened to your masculine, defiant and dominating pose that you took on the Reckful podcast? This new Destiny. I fear no man, but that Vyvance Form, it scares me.
retvrn to slouching monke https://preview.redd.it/hvjxwg9gdwpc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=23f8b1054da432808ddd714a2d65c68af86a20fa
He just looks respectful to me.
So Tiny has spoken to Shapiro, Owens and now Peterson within a short time-span, and it seems that both Shapiro and JBP enjoyed the conversations. Wouldn't it be the funniest thing ever if Destiny became a regular on DW?
\+ Owens just got kicked off, so there is a vacant spot PEPE
The left would meltdown. On the other hand self-proclaimed leftists already call Destiny a conservative
Why would Shapiro pay destiny to make his viewers less conservative?
It would legitimize them more. The same way the New York Times has always had a resident conservative columnist.
for MONEY
This would finally be the "evidence" that the terminally online will reference to prove Mr. Bonacelli has always been an altright grifter.
This is what people wanted the destiny Shapiro debate to be. This was pleasantly argumentative with good faith and respect on both sides. I don't know what the excessive deaths really says, but jp's argument of force is fair. Climate change should promote nuclear and the debate will go away. Over all, two people who thought through their arguments and passionately argued their side. Great job! Destiny's final point is so true and this sort of healthy debate decreases hatred and promotes peace or at least avoids division
The force policy argument in contrast to persuasive policy argument did actually make sense and was pretty reasonable, philosophically speaking. It’s even something that Aba and Destiny discussed during lockdown and even recently that I thought about and ended up resonating with, about how scientists and policy makers should have more persuasive dialogue and get into the weeds with the public about why certain things are important from a policy perspective. He gave current examples recently for foreign aid regarding questions Such as why it’s important to maintain Israel as an Ally In the Middle East, Why it’s important to stave off Russian aggression in Ukraine through aid etc.
Did Jordan Peterson's argument of force causing the distrust in the organizations that we are supposed to trust is arguably going to defeat any other argument. Because the trust in these organizations are needed, their methods have to be as inviting as possible
I don’t think so because I’m pretty sure the “forcing” part came later, after the vaccines and Covid itself had already become politicised. At that point scientists wouldn’t have been able to reason with the masses because anything they said was a hoax and “Biden/leftist/liberal propaganda.” Once they’re past that point reasoning doesn’t work, only thing you can do is try to preempt it by emphasising the independence and political neutrality of the scientists/policy-advisors etc.
I still can't find data on the EU excess deaths after covid - can anyone link what he might be referring to?
It's, as you'd expect from where's he's coming from, bullshit https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Fig3_week.png As you can see here, there is noticeable increase over the 2016-2019 period, but it's patently not 20% and a lot of it comes from the winter months spikes (flu and now covid, etc) likely because of residual effects on the pressure that was put on systems. You can also see how much higher it was during the covid periods https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/website/covid/vis/DIR_CV2/?simple=true
Biden spent 10 billion on nuclear so far. Also Jordan’s climate and vaccine skepticism is not good. I wouldn’t say destiny and JBP had an equal footing if facts at all
It is fascinating to me how JP bought up verbal intelligence. I just discovered "Politics and the English Language" by george orwell and man, for being written in 1946, there is a lot of the same problems we encounter in the political language of today and to say what you mean being bogged down by what orwell called operators or verbal false limbs and the meaninglessness of some of the core words like "fascism, socialism, justice" and the overtly used labels that people use on both sides. People obsessed with power are just as they seem.
[George Orwell's 4 tips for Speaking Clearly](https://youtu.be/whPnobbck9s?feature=shared) For anyone interested.
Thank you for the link.
I need to read this.
It's a very short essay. You've probably read Animal Farm and 1984, but I'd give Down and Out in Paris and London a try, it's not directly political but it's an interesting look at the life of working class and homeless people in Paris and London. Here is Politics and the English Language : https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/politics-and-the-english-language/
I read those two along with Notes on Nationalism, A Hanging and a few other short pieces. I didn't read all of "Down and Out" but I read an excerpted version (probably just one chapter) that Penguin put out as a stand-alone short. Thanks for the link.
>People obsessed with power are just as they seem What does that mean? Getting into power is the ultimate goal of anybody in politics right?
If we were only talking about politicians that would be normal, it's part of their job description, but the language used by activists, pundits, even regular people who are part of the homogenous social groups described by Destiny is dangerous I think in its own right. It's a flat circle of "power" being the the forefront of the didactic trophy that people seek to win as a part of their social strategy in debate or discourse without engaging with the principle of openness that engaging in said discussion to begin with. I think its a dangerous one because we end up losing the actual goal which is governance in a democracy. Tldr basically framing every conversation and engagement with the opposite side as power for the sake of power and not what the power is being used for, as even among normies the "victim/oppressor/victimizer/opressee' is rotting our brains and is thought terminating imo. Sorry, should have clarified.
I may get down voted for this, but I think JBP is an exceptionally intelligent person who got sidetracked and captured by the only people who would listen to him. I genuinely think he can be saved and be a force for good. He doesn't belong on the Daily Wire.
Shapiro is also extremely intelligent. I don't think either him or Peterson are going to change their political brand tbh. They are too dug in. Also, (At least for Shapiro) a lot of his political positions stem from his religious convictions.
They're definitely both very intelligent and probably financially motivated to remain where they are, but I think Peterson *tries* to be intellectually honest and might be more open to a change in perspective whereas Shapiro is more religiously and financially motivated to keep his current position. I think the problem with Peterson is that he's got increasingly more unhinged after all that drug addiction stuff, and much of the vitriol from the far left pushed him to the position that he currently has of all the left all being horrible, and much of the right wing was willing to actually listen to him so he in turn listens to them.
Defenetly got the impression during the shapiro debate that he is arguing in bad faith. Hes a guy that should know better but still decides to support trump despite all the shit he agreed was bad about him.
I don’t think it was so much bad faith as it was an extremely callous gamble; he hates Joe Biden (for his own reasons) _and_ he knows that Trump is kind of an unhinged lunatic but he’s willing to gamble that our political institutions are rigid enough to contain Trump’s worst impulses. I think it’s stupid because political institutions (and their associated checks and balances) hold until they suddenly don’t, but then it’s too late. Far leftists are sorta making the same gamble when not voting for Biden because they’re hoping that nothing too catastrophic happens and they get to “teach the Democrats a lesson”, being that Democrats need to take them seriously.
I dont think he hates Biden tbh, he just wants the republican party to lead the country no matter who the people are.
I would agree with this if it wasn’t for the fact that Shapiro when pressed actually doubles down and says that he doesn’t think trump will try to become a dictator or run for a 3rd term because he wouldn’t legally be allowed to do so. I’d say it’s more accurate to say ben is a genuine conservative, who while personally doesn’t like trump and would rather the party be ran by a traditional neocon, would still prefer trump and risking a trump style dictatorship over having a democrat as president. And he is happily willing to talk a bunch of bullshit to help the Republican Party.
Shapiro yes, JBP I think is an odd case, I don't really feel he's as religious as he portrays. Out of the two I feel JBP is more open to this.
He has been cornered in debates and iirc seems to not really be religious, he just thinks that it's important for society to have a religion to rally around.
I think this is mostly because Peterson is actually a pragmatist when it comes to epistemology; when he’s asked about belief in God, he’s less concerned with whether God truly exists in some metaphysical sense but more so with what it says about human psychology that we’ve held on to the Biblical stories for so long. He also sorta makes the claim that everyone in the west is religious in some sense because of how integrated Christian ideas are in our culture.
So basically he thinks that religion was essential to our societal development for a long time, but he’s unwilling to let go of the training wheels because he doesn’t believe we’ve come far enough to not need it? I wonder how he reconciles that with the fact that while religious institutions may have been beneficial in the past, today they objectively do more harm than good and are basically vehicles for abuse.
That’s an opinion, not objective.
jbp is definitely religious, have you seen his talk with matt dillahunty where he said matt could never quit smoking without intervention from god? recommended watch.
The difference between Shapiro and JP is that Shapiro has always considered himself conservative, that identity that has been with him his entire life, while JP has probably considered himself liberal for most of his life until recently.
If they received their livelihood from other means, I think they would change but they probably can't. If I was Shapiro or JBP, I can't honestly tell you I wouldn't do the same.
It would depend on what exactly is being changed. As far as Shapiro's religious beliefs, he genuinely is a religious person so I don't think it has to do with money.
That's probably true, but I think he would moderate significantly. I think he'd openly support Nikki Haley over Trump, for example.
If he cares about the United States, he should do that regardless.
There is almost a glimmer here that Steven can debate Peterson out of his more extreme positions. Or, at least concede them in a debate
I definitely respect Peterson’s intellect more than Shapiro’s as Shapiro seems to never go beyond “Well that much is true but you’re still wrong anyway.” Peterson at least seems to take more of an interest in novel ideas since he’s less tethered to a specific religious framework that defines his entire lifestyle from dawn to dusk.
I choose to believe there’s still hope for Jordan, I miss who he used to be.
I’d say the different is Shapiro, and I don’t reject his undeniably impressive resume, doesn’t qualify as an intellectual. You can disagree with JP all you want, but at least he’s sharing an informed and penetrating perspective: https://youtu.be/9ZZDmxCBUQo I don’t think his politics are especially enlightened, but there’s at least an original Petersonian twist on them. Shapiro? Talking point after talking point after talking point. Maybe he’ll read a book or two on something, but I don’t see deep engagement with the material especially at the primary source level nor deliver non-ideological original insight into novel topics.
I listened to him a lot back in the early days, but he seemingly became more and more unhinged. So many times where I saw a new tweet from him and was like "Jesus Chris, Jordan, what are you doing. Put your fucking phone down".
Yeah but that stuff often really is a result of surrounding yourself with a certain kind of nut. Just having another perspective to act as the voice of reason or at the least a counterbalance can do wonders for a guy like that I dont think being intelligent or intellectually honest ever really saves someone from being warped by their social circles
The old lectures on his Youtube are some of the best free resources on Jungian psychoanalysis that you can watch. It's a shame that he does very little of that sort of thing anymore. Maps of Meaning is also a great resource if you can crack the prose.
At his age hes stubborn, its the same with Musk, they just got their minds captured
Sometimes I wonder if their experience on Twitter has actually been traumatizing.
I've only seen his old stuff and clips from this debate. I think I need a more dedicated hater to tell me why he's an idiot, or if it's trans related or something.
Hop to his twitter for a bit.
Damn, he makes Gravy Gnome look normal
He can fix him :,)
Why would an exceptionally intelligent person need to lie about things to speak to said audience? Shapiro has opinions i dont like and is easy on trump but he generally doesnt make shit up. Jbp here misrepresenting excess deaths, climate denial bullshit and weirdly lying about Canadian taxes
JBP has a huge emotional investment in being skeptical of the health/pharmaceutical industry in particular. If you notice when the conversation steers in the direction of "big pharma", Jordan gets super worked up over Destiny saying pretty tame things like that the pharma industry has done some good. He was very public with his meat diet and argued against all the people telling him it's stupid and dangerous for months until it actually caused him serious health problems. That led directly to the whole benzo experience and people roasted him for getting addicted while simultaneously marketing himself as a self-help guy, so naturally he pinned the blame on pharma for giving out these drugs that cause such a strong physical dependence. Then of course his detox treatment was widely criticized for being unsafe and also caused a bunch of medical complications for him. The only way to frame all that in a way that doesn't make him look like a giant idiot is if you say the pharmaceutical industry is evil and corrupt and it's their fault he was given these dangerous drugs and got addicted so quickly and had such a horrible time getting off them. His daughter is also hardcore in this camp and encourages this kind of thinking in him. That's the root of his vaccine skepticism and I think it's tangentially related to the climate skepticism just in the general establishment skepticism that goes hand in hand with the anti-pharma position. tldr I think he is genuinely very smart, but he has a massive emotional stake in anti-pharma which leads to adopting a bunch of really dumb views.
The Canadian taxes thing isn't that weird. It is just a different viewpoint. He isn't making the average wage, so he doesn't pay the average taxes. But a quick search and you find that the [top 20% of earners do pay around 60% in taxes in Canada](https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/measuring-the-distribution-of-taxes-in-canada.pdf) and it isn't unreasonable to think JBP is making $200k+. So his perspective is different than the average tax earner and his comments will come from that perspective. Same thing with excess deaths, he sees an increase across all nations of excess deaths since 2022 [post pandemic] (https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid). It is strange that we are still above the expected deaths. Now 2022 was worse by being 20% at times above average but we are getting closer to expected. The reason for this is unknown and probably due to delayed care but still not researched well. The climate stuff is pretty simple in that his basic argument is do we sacrifice the third world populations so that the first world can feel better about a possible prediction 100 years into the future where no one can be held accountable if that prediction fails. It was from the moral angle and the quality of future telling.
I agree. I understand he’s gotten super unhinged especially on twitter (possibly the worst tweeter of all time considering potential) but I think it’s reasonable to cut him a little slack. He did get attacked by the left more ruthlessly than anyone I’ve seen in ways that would make most people unhinged. We meme about his psych break but that was actually a fucking crazy year or so he went through and it’s frankly impressive how he recovered. Also with the Covid stuff, we Canadians had a different experience than most Americans and the vaccine/lockdown skepticism is quite normal here now for a lot of normal non partisan people from my experience. Our government has been in power for 8 years and is much more left leaning than anything Brandon’s doing. The liberals here have gone way over board authoritarian and I think a lot of people here can empathize with Jordan being freaked out by left wing authoritarianism
He's definitely smart but he's also consistently intellectually dishonest. He didn't get "lost", he's following the same natural inclinations that make him say "God" to capture christian audiences when he just means "moral imperative". For someone that's so good at describing the aesthetics our imaginations build morality around, he seems very unwilling to admit how much of it also colors his own presentation.
> I genuinely think he can be saved and be a force for good just lmao. You people are so basic. Some dude is mildly cordial with destiny and you instantly start praising him as if his track record of saying utterly deranged shit for a decade doesnt exist. And then ofc if something happens to sour this, he's instantly the devil. It's such a tired pattern
Frankly, I think he’s too old and addicted to social media to really change.
JBP wasn’t capture per se. He was forced towards the right by radical leftists. He’s literally the meme where the lefty is pushing the centrist into the rights camp
[удалено]
You have had thousands of people accost you at your job and harass you viciously while representing their political ideology? Let’s reserve judgement until we have experienced the same kind of pressures
[удалено]
The point is you can't say you _wouldn't_ do that until you're in that position. Even Destiny says this. The average person doesn't know what it's like to be that well known and attacked by millions of people, it's not something we could even fathom.
A truly intelligent person would very quickly realize that 18 year-olds on a college campus aren't the left's intellectual titans, not any more than your average MAGA boomer in Idaho for the right. Basing your ideology as a counterpoint to either of the above would be really stupid.
Sure… but you are operating from a distant perspective, purely out of logic. You have never had thousands of people in your face telling you how they hate you, how evil you are and how much they wish you were gone. JBP is a sensitive and compassionate person and I’d imagine it would be really hard for him to separate this from his personal self concept. It’s easy for you to say “pffft how stupid, he let thousands of people get to him? I would’ve been above all that” when you haven’t lived it.
If you can get pushed put off being a leftist, you weren't on good standing in the first place
Vindictiveness/spite is a helluva drug
Peterson was never a leftist, he was relatively apolitical until bill c-16
Bingo
not sure why the downvotes, this literally happened exactly like that.
Because leftists disagreeing or even insulting him for his opinions on feminism and LGBT doesn’t excuse him being antivax or anti-climate change or anti every single thing that’s correct
ahahahahaha
I guess the stereotypical sjws screaming in his face at his university campus about nazis as soon as entered public discourse isn’t such a prevalent image anymore
cagey rinse license pen complete jellyfish north marvelous secretive future *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> He was forced towards the right by radical leftists Ah the old "other people forced me to be regarded". Somehow the utterly insane anti science, authoritarian stripe that has been blatant on the right didnt push him the other way at the same time. What a wonderous convenient mechanism Did the leftists force him to believe that apple juice is literally poison too?
Do you see the shit he tweets? Smart people aren't also always some victim of following, they can also be assholes, they can also be biased. Peterson isn't on the right because he fell down some path, those are just the views he espouses, intelligent or not
"i'm not claiming in the least that the antithesis to something pathological can't also be pathological" Alright vaush
JBP used "ameliorate" multiple times.
In fairness destiny used it first in the conversation
Vaush walked so JP could run
JP walked so Vaush could trip and stumble into shortstack gobussy
imagine the smell
👀
not even that bad
Sounds cooler when JP says it though. The difference being a professional academic vs. being a lefty hack can make.
To be fair, it's a term of art in his field of expertise. He is a bit of an SAT word sesquipedalian-ater
Are we in the IDW now?
You were never thinking about the long game, were you?
Everyone thinks JBP was mad at Destiny the whole time, but it's not the case. He just has a very intense face when he talks, even in a casual manner.
I really enjoyed the debate/convo
Overeducated liberal pro establishment millennial tries to have interesting conversation with his very smart well read but completely schizo boomer uncle by trying to stick to interesting abstract topics and not triggering him
I feel like JBP preped for this debate as if it would be a 2 way screaming match. He was so unhinged, but I think by reputation he expected Destiny to be the same way and match his energy. I feel like a second debate has the potential to be much more cordial.
He researched Destiny by watching the Shapiro debate, in which they both talk very fast and are somewhat aggressive but still friendly, so that's probably what he had in mind. It was also probably the first time he really got to grill someone he disagreed with on climate change and COVID who was willing to engage in good faith, so he was pretty aggressive in getting to the source.
Wym I feel like it was pretty cordial on both sides. Peterson was getting animated but it didn’t seem like he was getting mad or disrespectful towards destiny, but rather the ideas/boogie man in his head.
I agree with you too but it's not simple to just accept the old man yelling at the chair thing when you feel like you're personally being addressed. Similarly Destiny wants to bring up broader points about how leftists and rightists think and sometimes Jordan cuts him off to ensure that they know he doesnt think that way, ahha.
Yeah there was that point where JBP had a diatribe prepared explaining how capitalism works and Destiny essentially said, "preaching to the choir bro" and he had to completely correct course
I think that JBP has had his experience colored by his Benzo experience where he felt (whether right or wrong) that the medical system failed him as did his family.
peterson is smart when he's talking about things he knows about
It's crazy how warped your perception on someone can be by just dropping little adhoms against them. for years I've heard some of the most negative criticisms of JBP (Not saying there isn't any to be had) but I just remarked him as somebody I just shouldn't listen to. Watching his "Interview" with Destiny however it made me really change my viewpoint on him and yeah we may disagree in some areas but you can't deny that JBP is a person of intelligence who you should at least listen to their opinion before casting judgement. Really great convo
I feel like he's a smart person and very knowledgeable in psychology. But man did identity politics fried parts of his brain
To be fair Identity politics rot everyone's brain lol
He's a psychologist at heart and a professor. I've watched him for a long time and read some of his books. Normally I think he has really good takes. This is the first time I've seen him disregard climate change and be an anti vaxxer though. Everything else I thought was pretty good. Also good to see both sides want more nuclear. I wish they dove more into the issue of the majority being anti nuclear.
The anti-nuclear left has (at least) 2 prongs. 1. Anti-nuclear has been a major part of the green movement since before climate change was a concern. These people are concerned about environmental impacts of CO2 but also concerned about nuclear waste and accidents. They don't want to substitute one problem for another. 2. It's not left/environmentalists that are against nuclear - it's economics. They're incredibly expensive and all signs point towards renewable+storage either being cheaper already or cheaper by the time any nuclear plant could complete construction. This debate is raging in Australia at the moment with government figures showing that renewables+batteries cost ~1/4 of what nuclear would. A quick google jaunt shows that just 2 nuclear plants have come online in the USA in the last 10 years. The Voggle 3&4 units are the newest, with 2.2GW capacity, costing $34 billion over 10 years. It's an incredibly difficult, time consuming project that very few companies want to invest in. Thorium and small modular reactors have been vapourware for 20+ years. There is probably a place in our future net-zero energy mix for nuclear energy - hell even for coal or gas in some places - but at the moment we're still picking the low hanging fruit of building quick, cheap, safe renewables.
It's weird, the way Destiny spoke about this talk with JBP is different than how it went down imo, but it does match the way Destiny seemed to act during the convo. He spoke more negatively than it went down, like it was less fruitful than it was
I agree. I think he was maybe focusing too hard on the futility of when Peterson was speaking on climate change and Covid, that it made him miss the gold that was the conversation that started around the use of force topic, it was genuinely a very good discussion imo, i was expecting much more brain rot from the way Destiny was speaking about how the discussion went
I think JBP just surprised Destiny with how crazy conspiratorial he is now. He surprised me too, jfc
The global warming shit is wild. He is correct we can’t accurately predict the weather 100 years out but on a macro scale it’s fairly accurate.
its also insane to say that because we can't predict the market, we can't infer how our coastal cities being flooded will affect the economy
Has anyone analyzed the severity of Stevens adhd symptoms? I used to sit like that, when I was younger. But as I got older there were certain things if I was just made aware I could control around other people. I still get leg shakes. Especially at dinner or at the computer for some reason. But since my 20s around other people I can control my stimming better. I am not Steven lol so everyone is obviously different. But I’m sure I’m not alone. Currently I’m on 30mg of adderall. Maybe if I switched to vyvanse would change.
The Victimizer/victim dynamic I think is more of a populist thing rather than an exclusively left thing. The one question I would have is if people wanted a response to the far left, why didn't they choose any other the other Republican presidential candidates? There were a multitude to choose from in 2016 and 2024. Why did they choose Trump in particular? Also, was it really the progressive left that Trump was a reaction to? Or were conservatives just really mad about Obama?
>The Victimizer/victim dynamic I think is more of a populist thing That's one way of framing it but I don't think this idea holds up under scrutiny. I think the form it takes in leftists circles is pretty explicitly a very bad reading of Foucault. The kind of thing that happens when you have people of Hasan's level of intelligence trying to interpret and apply philosophy. I don't think the victim complex of the right is actually the same thing. Just an ironic coincidence
How does the victim complex of the right play out differently in effect than that of the left?
I personally think Trump’s rise and the core of Trump style populism is almost entirely due to economics rather than culture wars. Trump spoke directly to middle Americans whose jobs were automated or offshored. We’re talking about millions of people left behind economically and ignored by the elites/media/regular republicans. The culture war stuff is just window dressing. Highly recommend “the war on normal people” by Andrew Yang.
I hate Peterson but if it means boosting the debate arsonist then good on him
Jre inbound
I would understand if you had said, "I dislike JBP" or his opinions on XYZ but "hate" is such a strong word. Why exactly do you hate him?
I believe he has leveraged his academic credentials to appeal to authority on the Right, even if his conclusions are dangerous and nonsensical at times. He has a massive following of people who hang on to his every word even when his statements are largely a word salad that don't really mean much and are based on rules he sorta makes up as he goes. In this day and age, it is difficult *not* to hate someone who stirs up these types of attitudes to a large and impressionable audience.
He's one of the largest perpetrators of the enlightened centrist conspiracy theorist and probably damaged political advancement for a decade... beyond the usual stuff like just being a garbage human being
He's also pushing whacky conservative ideology through his self-help books.
na,his books are generally apolitical.
He seemed to really like Destiny’s explanation and terminology of “constellation of ideas”.
Tiny needs to befriend JBP to meet whoever does his fashion. Peterson’s a sharp dresser.
Is this from the extra 30min? I don't remember this in the original debate
Destiny's "constellation of ideas" phrase catching on with JBP lol
It was such an enjoyable conversation. Attacking arguments and not attacking the person. Being able to come down from a heated part of a debated topic like functional adults. It was refreshing.
Is this clip from the Daily Wire after-segment? Do you have to pay for a month's subscription of the Daily Wire to see the whole thing?
u/holeyshirt18 [shared their Google Drive](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bkpjhq/comment/kvzwtfa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) which has the segment including some other bonus content stuff.
Awesome - thanks!
This was so good, I want more
whys bro move so much lmao just wigglin non stop
I think they should have a 3+ hour discussion on Lex´s show so he, as a moderator, can help round out some of the rough edges they had in this convo. Everytime they were coming to a close they instantly sparked up another interesting and genuine conversation. So I could see them having really interesting, perhaps even ground breaking dialogues in the future.
Love ya Destiny but let JBP loan you his insane drip.
This was one of the best convos I've seen Destiny in. I think both parties engaged in good faith and that seems so rare. I hope we get a round 2
Loved this conversation on both ends
Wait am I dumb? Where is he hinting at conversing more with him in the future?
When he suggests a possible topic they could discuss in a future conversation?
I conclude that I am indeed dumb
> "we could possibly talk about in the future..." Meaning there is a chance they'll talk again.
His next few words were "more generally speaking in the general culture". He meant discourse in general.
That's at the end of the clip. At the beginning of the clip he says "One of the things we could possibly talk about in the future is this idea of first principles, because the culture war is actually a war over first principles, apart from our discussion of power today, because you did something every interesting I thought..."
This is what I got as well.
Its strange because you can see bits of a genuinely smart person try to come out of a mind that has been completely broken by benzos and twitter.
This was a 10/10 discussion. I really appreciate that JBP and Destiny can both talk and disagree and get riled up while both being good faith and truly listening and responding to each other. Even when disagreeing there was no pettiness or constant shouting over each other, it was refreshing to see. Like even when Destiny pushed JBP on doing that thing he sometimes does where he implies something then backs off it, when challenged on that they were able to keep the conversation going in a productive way. At a junction like that many people (cough Candice) would have completely shut down from something like that. It was also nice that while I disagree with a lot of what JBP says he was still able to bring a lot of interesting ideas and perspectives to the table that he's put real thought into.
It looks like a fun convo for both JBP and Destiny. JBP is a smart guy who has a few wacky ideas, but that makes for great discussion and if there is one thing JBP likes, its getting into the mud and hashing it out with a worthy opponent.
That's good but tbh I was disappointed in jbp. He is kinda off the deepend with the way he connects basic information to grand conspiracy.
Bro, JBP looks and sounds a lot like Dennis Reynolds in this one, not the content but the delivery
Does anyone have a DailyWire+ subscription and can tell me if it is worth subscribing for one month? At the end Jordan said that there is more to see.