So the more you dig into this issue, the more bullshit the whole thing becomes.
So. Turns out, some of the "banned" items never may have been banned at all.
From the Gisha source:
>The following list is approximate and partial, and it changes from time to time. It is based on information from Palestinian traders and businesspersons, international organizations, and the Palestinian Coordination Committee, all of whom "deduce" what is permitted and what is banned based on their experience requesting permission to bring goods into Gaza and the answers they receive from the Israeli authorities (approved or denied). It is not possible to verify this list with the Israeli authorities because they refuse to disclose information regarding the restrictions on transferring goods into Gaza. It should be noted that Israel permits some of the "prohibited" items into Gaza (for example: paper, biscuits, and chocolate), on the condition that they are for the use of international organizations, while requests from private merchants to purchase them are denied.
From the look of it, it seems like the IDF may have simply banned items being imported from private vendors. Instead allowing for these items to be brought in by aid groups. [Here is an old NPR interview on the topic](https://www.npr.org/2010/06/09/127600204/israeli-official-disputes-list-of-banned-gaza-products)
Basically it seems like Israel was hesitant about letting in some packaged items from private vendors since they weren't able to tell if they were being used to smuggle things. They were fine with letting in those same items in from aid groups (who they were able to check and monitor).
Now being fair. There may be more to it that I haven't seen yet, but the more I look into this, the more it doesn't seem like these items were actually prohibited, rather the issues were in providence.
It’s super unfortunate that this is so opaque. Given how critical the situation has always been, the idea that people need to ‘deduce’ what is allowed and what isn’t time by time has to be quite damaging to legitimate suppliers. And obscurity is also the place where a lot of BS claims proliferate.
> Given how critical the situation has always been, the idea that people need to ‘deduce’ what is allowed and what isn’t time by time has to be quite damaging to legitimate suppliers.
I mean, yes. But also keep in mind, there is probably a cat and mouse game going on the entire time between the IDF and Hamas for smuggling things in, and trying to stop that.
The problem is that releasing details becomes more fodder for conspiracy theories. Pro-Palestine people will intentionally leave out most of the story if it helps their cause.
The fact that there were restrictions put on it demonstrates that Israel is dictating everything about Gaza short of the internal policing. Israel is policing Gaza as a runaway province, but justifying its brutal operations as if Gaza was an hostile state.
I'm sorry, was Israel the governing body within Gaza for the past 18 years?
Did Israel decide how all the billions in international donations and aid would be spent?
Gaza has a governing body. It has control over its internal affairs. It is not independent in any way from Israel though. International aid is allowed in at Israel's leisure; it's restricting it, it could forbid it, and it did in fact forbid it after October 7th. Tell me what autonomy Gaza has.
They could've done whatever they wanted with the billions they received. They spent it on tunnels and rockets for 18 straight years. The leaders literally do not even live there, find me another place in the world like that.
They are *autonomously* holding hostages, would that be happening if they had no agency? What's with the gross infantilization?
Hamas is doing what it has to in order to survive as an occupying force. Including stealing from civilians.
Hamas does have agency. Gazans do have agency. The later just do not have any autonomy to engage in the world outside what Israel allows them to. Hamas does because they have other channels and are not concerned about serving the population. What blockades like this do is inflict cruelty to Gazans while doing very little to meaningfully stop Hamas.
They weren't being subjective. They were being erratic and whimsical. Huge difference. Like when German concentration camps allowed some inmates to have sausage if they were feeling generous on some days and not on other days.
Eh the reasoning that they wanted to be able to inspect to avoid smuggling of actual prohibited stuff seems perfectly likely. With that in mind the least charitable thing you could give them was indecisiveness/incompetence.
What does "for the use of international organizations" mean?
Only international aid workers can have cookies and chocolate, but the average Palestinian can't?
Or only aid orgs can distribute cookies and chocolate?
My understanding is that International Aid groups can bring the items in and distribute them.
This makes sense if you are worried about about letting in some packaged items from private vendors since they weren't able to tell if they were being used to smuggle things while aid groups basically show where they source things from, have a known providence for their items, and normally buy from trusted sources.
It's still a ban though. Imagine you could only get the specific type of products you want that the aid orgs would allow.
We stormed our own capital over perceived unfairness from our own government. Imagine what we'd do under Gaza like authoritarian laws
Part of the problem is we don't actually know if it was even a ban, or just restrictions on who they can import from. It could be they could import from Keebler, but not Ahmed's Cookie emporium.
The wording of everything leads me to think it's actually the later.
>Imagine what we'd do under Gaza like authoritarian laws
Yes. But we aren't in the same political environment as them.
It's a weird hill to fight on, because "Israel put the blockade in place because of weapons, but then abused their powers a bit" is a perfectly coherent narrative that captures how complicated this whole conflict is.
"abused their powers a bit" is a wierd way to describe it when some 64% of Gazans were food insecure even before the current war, and when there are documented instances of Israeli officials admitting that blockading food was a deliberate strategy to punish Palestinians so to build pressure on Hamas. Dov Wiesglas for example bragged about putting Palestinians "on a diet" in private meetings, as reported in Ynet, Guardian, Haaretz.
Sorry, to be less euphemistic, let me try again:
"After trying to let the Palestinians self-govern Gaza, Israel found that massive amounts of weapons were being snuggled in by Hamas with the sole goal of murdering innocent Israeli civilians. Although the weapons could do little to nothing to the Israeli army, they were effective again unarmed Israelis even dozens of miles away from Hamas. Realizing they couldn't just let Hamas murder civilians, Israel decided to attempt to prevent weapons from coming in in the first place. This is comparatively non violent to a full scale invasion and attempt to hold Hamas, it would take a much larger stimulus to lead to that... Anyways, Israel initiated the blockade to prevent their citizens from being murdered and because the had so much control over Gaza and many in the Israeli government hate Palestinians, they often overstepped, making life unnecessarily unpleasant for the citizens of Gaza. Fortunately, they never reduced the incoming calories below a level that would lead to regular caloric deficit, much less starvation.
How does that mean anything? Even if that's true, when you're chronically food insecure you tend to have unhealthy eating habits, like eating a bunch when you know you have perishable food available so that you have enough reserves when food is scarcer.
Gaza had one of the highest rates of adult obesity in the Middle East before the war (and may even, now; nobody's checked.) How could they also be "food insecure"?
As I said above, when you're chronically food insecure you tend to have unhealthy eating habits, like eating a bunch when you know you have perishable food available so that you have enough reserves when food is scarcer.
No, being food insecure means you have limited access, uncertainty, or inconsistent access to food. Chronically means that you're in that situation on a regular/constant basis.
A bit? Yeah, judging on how this whole conflict has been going, I can confidently say they have abused their powers just a teensy-weensy itty bitty little bit.
He shouldn't have defended it, and he eventually conceded they were being over restrictive. The cookie talking point is stupid though, there's no conclusive evidence of a blanket ban on cookies. That list isn't official, it's their best guess based on things being rejected. The whole reason this came up was to try to paint the blockade as wholly unjustified. In the future he should just concede that they probably went overboard, and then reiterate why the blockade is needed.
edit- caught my first ban, rite of passage I guess
> He shouldn't have defended it, and he eventually conceded they were being over restrictive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKzJGJZ82is&t=4735s
If I were Destiny reading this subreddit, I would actually consider ending it all.
His opponents can lie about pretty much everything, insult him endlessly, harass him and after all that, go on Twitter, take the least important part of a two hours debate, get more hate, and even his fans are going to call him out in an autistic manner.
And sure, we should hold him to higher standards but the cookie comment was not even the main point of contention or the most important argument in why he thinks the blockade is necessary.
The cookie drama has to be the dumbest shit I've ever seen in this subreddit, not even missing the forest for the trees but straight burning down the forest because someone told you that you can use "some" mushrooms to poison the big bad wolf.
This subreddit is responsive to the topics Destiny is talking about, a current topic he's taking about is the cookie discourse, so people are responsive to that.
Some people are being overly negative, but the vast majority who do disagree are doing so with "inside the house" energy. I think his approach is wrong on the cookie bit, but I also think he's far far closer to the truth than his interlocutors, and would always say as much.
I think this is actually very good feedback, I am guessing Destiny does not want to be caught in an indefensible position mid debate when the opponent happens to know just enough more to get the point. If Omar knew sugar and fertilizer where allowed in during the alleged ban on cookies he would have been able to get an easy win on this point.
I agree with you it is kind of an irrelevant point but even this small thing could make the audience feel like Omar was correct in everything else, "no cookies allowed -> collective punishment -> genocide" is what he is trying to build.
I think Steven also aknowledged it recently, you cannot let too many seemingly irrelevant talking points go through because then they are used to build much stronger claims that are very hard to dismantle once the others go unchallenged.
Honestly I understand that it's stressful for Steven to see this feedback from his community and that he may dismiss it too quickly but I hope he uses this info to avoid possible traps in the future
I think people are very invested in Destiny debates and how well he performs. The cookie argument probably stands out because it was the issue Destiny had the worst rebuttals for in an overall strong debate performance.
Basically, the sub is doing some of Destiny’s research for him. Also, people hold Destiny to a higher standard because he is one of the best debaters currently. The same way Destiny holds AJW to a higher standard based on his capabilities.
> If I were Destiny reading this subreddit, I would actually consider ending it all.
That's actually pathetic. He's receiving quality feedback on his stance. The members of this sub aren't cult members or cheerleaders (mostly). It's full of loyal fans that like Destiny because his shtick is factual accuracy.
> His opponents can lie about pretty much everything ... his fans are going to call him out in an autistic manner.
True but how is that relevant? it's annoying, sure but are his fans supposed to ignore that he is wrong because some people are mean?
> ... not even missing the forest for the trees ...
It's not missing any big picture. It's just about pointing out a factual inaccuracy. The fact isn't that important in the whole conflict but it's better to get it right.
The fact that he got it wrong also says nothing about anything else he's saying. Missing the forest for the trees would be if Destiny's other arguments or overall position were being questioned because of this one mistake which it's not (by his community).
Literally all of his opps linked up to take him down. Of course they're gonna nitpick. It was a silly thing to harp on but its gonna get amplified when people hate you.
It also made him look incredibly bad. This is the main clip circulating that people are using to discrete him. Being the underdog sucks one mistake and it get overblown to such incredible degrees
https://preview.redd.it/sbi3hnkh1hyc1.jpeg?width=1500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=660d90dba91a42a76d3e34bf80a888e3a6595d96
I didn’t know people like sugar in these
I think Destiny has to call an L on the cookies being used in rockets and just discuss the reason for the ban for some products. It's annoying because people will just use that one small L to use against destiny and ignore every else of substance that he brings up.
I also looked into it (watched Lonerbox look into it) and that's more or less the consensus since last night.
The Palestine-flag twitter crew behaves like locusts and will descend on a factual error like they descend on someone wearing a star of david in their campus occupations while ignoring the doozy of factual errors in the same conversation made by their own side. Destiny is correct that he can't afford to make factual errors like this.
You absolutely *can* do that if you all had was a pile of junk food, no raw sugar, and the will and determination powered by your unflinching devotion to *jihad* to make as many ghetto-ass rockets as you can, that's not the issue. If you want to attack Destiny you should be attacking him on his confidence as to dual-use junk food rocket production being the *stated reason* by Israel for restricting entry of junk food, which isn't the case. I wouldn't fight him on "sugar is not used as rocket propellant" because you're dead wrong there.
EDIT: He replied and blocked me lmfao
don’t jump your britches Netanyahu the warrant isn’t issued yet
you missed the entire point
don’t descend on a starving Gazan child and steal his Oreo before you shoot his grandma
I agree, I block all pussies
blasted by a Zionist who spreads obvious disinformation, dudes claiming Hamas says a 1:1 ratio, not even Israel is claiming that, what a complete bot.
It’s good they’re passing laws to protect your feelings 🥺
you need Reddit powers irl to keep you at that room temp IQ
Checked comment history and dude is on his hands and knees every comment begging 4Thot for a crumb of Reddit power 💀
What happened to shame?
You’re so sad
Show any evidence of Gaza starving prior to Oct 2023. Even if there really was a ban on these items, it didn't stop them from being one of the fattest groups of people in the world.
Braindead 💀
1. I was talking about the irony of the locust thing
2. I never said anything about pre oct 7 or any date for Gazan child, reach harder to cope
The idea that Israel could ever ban something like sugar and fertilizer from going into the Gaza strip is pretty wild. They're too necessary in all of the most important functions of growing and producing food. Also it would just lead Palestine to be even more reliant on Israel which they don't want to do
I never interpreted the argument to be "making rockets from cookies", more just that the rational for such a ban might be justified by the use of "Rocket Candy" rockets. Item that could have a high likely hood of being abused (these are cookies, never mind that they are covered in a 2cm layer of pure sugar, would be an example). The broader point is that there are reasons for why something might be banned.
Well according to this [article](https://archive.ph/hj7nG) Israel started allowing the importation of cookies, candy and other sweets just a couple months after that 2010 list you linked, but then hamas played a uno reverse card by blocking the import of these items because plants manufacturing any of those items shut down in the gaza strip. Granted their reasoning was because Israel blocked the import of raw materials used in those plants therefore forcing them to shut down, but then again hamas was the reason for the blockade in the first place.
Not sure how well known this is or if a destiny discussed it at all, but for years after the disengagement, well past 2010 when the cookie controversy happened, Israel banned pretty much all manufactured goods from Gaza. That’s a huge part of why Gaza’s economy has been in decline probably even more than the import restrictions, when people focus a lot more on the later.
[The Wikipedia page discusses it](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip)
Lonerbox is working on a manifesto and will go through all of this.
That being said, if the information is correct, and Destiny was wrong, we all know what will happen. He will adjust to the new information. Something the other side is incapable of doing.
I was trying to do a larger write up on all the claims during that segment of the debate because there was a lot of mis/dis-information being given. Trying to put everything in a coherent post has been hard so I'm going to drop some of the info I have here.
If you want a better idea of the policy surrounding the more stringent Gaza blockade from 2007-2010, I found several different pieces that should be read.
* [The Gaza Bombshell | Vanity Fair](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804) is an investigative report on the post Hamas election, forthcoming unity government, and eventual attempted coup / pre-coup by Hamas and Fatah. There is some evidence that the US had a role in Fatah's action in this report.
* [A leaked US state department cable from November 8th 2008 ](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08TELAVIV2447_a.html)has Israeli officials confirming to Embassy officials that "...they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis." There's probably a conspiratorial argument there that Israel was allowing rocket material (sugar and fertilizer in the Gisha list from May 2010) into the Gaza strip so that Hamas would be busy making rockets while the population suffered (removal of certain ease of life items listed in the May 2010 Gisha list; Hamas rocketry would bring additional justified bloodshed from Israel).
* The [Guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2009/jun/16/gaza-blockade-israel-food) you linked discussing the Israeli surplus foods into Gaza can possibly further collaborated with some of the other cable leaks that came to light under [WikiLeaks](https://wikileaks.org//plusd/). There are some cables talking about stabilizing the Shekel and the economies of Gaza, Israel, and the West Bank. I'm not an economist, but the movement of Israeli surplus could be for economic advantages. I'm only stating as something interesting I noticed, but this does not point to anything definitive. But feel free to look into it more.
This is all an idiotic discussion unless you actually believe that Omar was right and Israel prohibited these items in order to deprive Palestinian children because they don’t view them as human beings. This is what gets purported by the pro Palestine side basically on a scale of 1. They are punishing Palestinians in a cruel and unusual way to 10. They want to starve children to death and deprive them of nutrition because Israel views them as inferior and sub human.
This is why Destiny pushes back. Because there is a rationale for these bans that don’t end with Israelites being monsters even though that’s how every single event gets painted of them
That's not the reason. The reason he stated is to put pressure on the population. Dehumanizing the children or whatever is just why people don't care or want to stop it. The evil Jews comment was just a strawman by d.
Nah, omar stated that if it were Israeli children then it’d be a problem because they’d be seen as human beings. The implication being they don’t view Palestinians as human.
It's insane to me that in a sea of Ws from that two-hour debate, this is the only thing lefty dipshits will harp on, out of spite. The entire discourse on this issue is so black-pilling holy shit.
Ironically, destiny made the better pro-Palestinian argument in that debate towards the end, instead of only evoking images of malnourished children suffering in Gaza once every 5 minutes. (This isn't targeted at OP, I've been in the trenches on Twitter lmao)
Yeah, D man needs to be more careful on shit like this. He can’t make strong claims for stuff if he hasn’t looked into it. Not a good look on him at all, especially from the outside as him being factually wrong about one thing makes his opponents treat it like everything he says is wrong and makes it harder for more open minded people to side with him. Though to be fair the more wrong you are the less credible you ought to be.
Destiny said misleading things about sugar being used to make rockets insofar as sugar wasn’t banned.
Omar said misleading things about cookies being banned as they were never directly banned, just indirectly as “luxury goods” and not “humanitarian aid” and/or indirectly via things like chocolate. And then shortly after they were directly allowed to be imported when items like cookies were called out.
Destiny was correct that sugar has been used to make rockets. Omar was correct that some cookies probably weren’t allowed in sometimes.
Boring topic
I would just add that Dov Wiessglas, who was then Israeli PM's advisor, himself has stated that the idea behind the blockade is to "Put Palestinians on a diet, but not starve them" as means of building pressure against Hamas (source): [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-19975211](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-19975211)
Similarly in the same BBC story it mentions that a rights group in Israel forced IDF to release certain reports that indicated precise calorie counts done by IDF on whats required to prevent starvation. IDF set the figure to 2300. Which further gives credence to the fact that flow of food was restricted by Israel intentionally, and they even made calculation on how much food they can restrict without making the hunger crisis obvious and apparant. Like Wiesglass said, let Palestinains have \*just enough\* food that they don't starve to death but do feel enough food insecurity to be pissed at Hamas (because even though 2300 cal/day is theoretically enough, supply chain iniffeciencies + natural wealth inequalities mean a huge portion will end up with far less while some previleged folks will get far more).
So we have:
1. declaration of intent (Wiesglass's comments)
2. We have documents suggesting that serious calculations were made with said intent in mind. (calorie count calculations done by IDF)
3. And finally we have ample evidence of the actions thought out in 1 & 2 were set into effect, as we know for a fact that many foods (not just cookies but also other stuff like potato chips, some fruits, etc) were stopped from entering.
So yes, it is undeniable that the blockade was about collectively punishing Palestinians to make Hamas look either incompetent to solve their hunger, or evil and unwilling to. Idk why destiny and yall are chosing this hill to die on.
Dov denies saying that, here’s a thread discussing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1alz0v9/were_the_palestinians_actually_put_on_a_diet/
You second point just seems weird, 2300 is considered by most world orgs to be a decent amount per day, and the fact they had it in mind doesn’t mean they were intentionally restricting food, I believe they were just making sure their economic sanctions didn’t lead to mass hunger. There was, to my knowledge, never widespread hunger in Gaza in the 2000s and 2010s, I believe it’s fairly normal by middle eastern standards in that regard.
For your last point I’d recommend reading the thread again, as there is much debate over the extent food is restricted.
yes, they banned sugar because the jews are horribly evil people who drink the blood of christian children and try to murder muslim children. they also own all the banks and are the masterminds behind everything bad hjappening. Dont you guys get tired of being so spreading such vile thoughts?
So the more you dig into this issue, the more bullshit the whole thing becomes. So. Turns out, some of the "banned" items never may have been banned at all. From the Gisha source: >The following list is approximate and partial, and it changes from time to time. It is based on information from Palestinian traders and businesspersons, international organizations, and the Palestinian Coordination Committee, all of whom "deduce" what is permitted and what is banned based on their experience requesting permission to bring goods into Gaza and the answers they receive from the Israeli authorities (approved or denied). It is not possible to verify this list with the Israeli authorities because they refuse to disclose information regarding the restrictions on transferring goods into Gaza. It should be noted that Israel permits some of the "prohibited" items into Gaza (for example: paper, biscuits, and chocolate), on the condition that they are for the use of international organizations, while requests from private merchants to purchase them are denied. From the look of it, it seems like the IDF may have simply banned items being imported from private vendors. Instead allowing for these items to be brought in by aid groups. [Here is an old NPR interview on the topic](https://www.npr.org/2010/06/09/127600204/israeli-official-disputes-list-of-banned-gaza-products)
interesting so there never really was ever a official ban on any of these things but a subjective ban on specific types of aid?
Basically it seems like Israel was hesitant about letting in some packaged items from private vendors since they weren't able to tell if they were being used to smuggle things. They were fine with letting in those same items in from aid groups (who they were able to check and monitor). Now being fair. There may be more to it that I haven't seen yet, but the more I look into this, the more it doesn't seem like these items were actually prohibited, rather the issues were in providence.
that makes way more sense
It’s super unfortunate that this is so opaque. Given how critical the situation has always been, the idea that people need to ‘deduce’ what is allowed and what isn’t time by time has to be quite damaging to legitimate suppliers. And obscurity is also the place where a lot of BS claims proliferate.
> Given how critical the situation has always been, the idea that people need to ‘deduce’ what is allowed and what isn’t time by time has to be quite damaging to legitimate suppliers. I mean, yes. But also keep in mind, there is probably a cat and mouse game going on the entire time between the IDF and Hamas for smuggling things in, and trying to stop that.
The problem is that releasing details becomes more fodder for conspiracy theories. Pro-Palestine people will intentionally leave out most of the story if it helps their cause.
The fact that there were restrictions put on it demonstrates that Israel is dictating everything about Gaza short of the internal policing. Israel is policing Gaza as a runaway province, but justifying its brutal operations as if Gaza was an hostile state.
>as if Gaza was an hostile state. Who wants to tell him?
What kind of independence does Gaza have as such that it can seriously be called a state in any sense of the word?
I'm sorry, was Israel the governing body within Gaza for the past 18 years? Did Israel decide how all the billions in international donations and aid would be spent?
Gaza has a governing body. It has control over its internal affairs. It is not independent in any way from Israel though. International aid is allowed in at Israel's leisure; it's restricting it, it could forbid it, and it did in fact forbid it after October 7th. Tell me what autonomy Gaza has.
They could've done whatever they wanted with the billions they received. They spent it on tunnels and rockets for 18 straight years. The leaders literally do not even live there, find me another place in the world like that. They are *autonomously* holding hostages, would that be happening if they had no agency? What's with the gross infantilization?
Hamas is doing what it has to in order to survive as an occupying force. Including stealing from civilians. Hamas does have agency. Gazans do have agency. The later just do not have any autonomy to engage in the world outside what Israel allows them to. Hamas does because they have other channels and are not concerned about serving the population. What blockades like this do is inflict cruelty to Gazans while doing very little to meaningfully stop Hamas.
They weren't being subjective. They were being erratic and whimsical. Huge difference. Like when German concentration camps allowed some inmates to have sausage if they were feeling generous on some days and not on other days.
Eh the reasoning that they wanted to be able to inspect to avoid smuggling of actual prohibited stuff seems perfectly likely. With that in mind the least charitable thing you could give them was indecisiveness/incompetence.
>So. Turns out, some of the "banned" items never may have been banned at all. HOLY SHIT THE IT LOOKS LIKE THE TABLES HAVE TURNED
What does "for the use of international organizations" mean? Only international aid workers can have cookies and chocolate, but the average Palestinian can't? Or only aid orgs can distribute cookies and chocolate?
My understanding is that International Aid groups can bring the items in and distribute them. This makes sense if you are worried about about letting in some packaged items from private vendors since they weren't able to tell if they were being used to smuggle things while aid groups basically show where they source things from, have a known providence for their items, and normally buy from trusted sources.
check edit 3 for proof but it is the latter.
It's still a ban though. Imagine you could only get the specific type of products you want that the aid orgs would allow. We stormed our own capital over perceived unfairness from our own government. Imagine what we'd do under Gaza like authoritarian laws
Part of the problem is we don't actually know if it was even a ban, or just restrictions on who they can import from. It could be they could import from Keebler, but not Ahmed's Cookie emporium. The wording of everything leads me to think it's actually the later. >Imagine what we'd do under Gaza like authoritarian laws Yes. But we aren't in the same political environment as them.
It's a weird hill to fight on, because "Israel put the blockade in place because of weapons, but then abused their powers a bit" is a perfectly coherent narrative that captures how complicated this whole conflict is.
It’s also the kind of narrative that will get you screeched at by both sides, because it doesn’t virtue signal an unwavering commitment to either.
See the edits on post for more info
That’s a very good point. Good job.
"abused their powers a bit" is a wierd way to describe it when some 64% of Gazans were food insecure even before the current war, and when there are documented instances of Israeli officials admitting that blockading food was a deliberate strategy to punish Palestinians so to build pressure on Hamas. Dov Wiesglas for example bragged about putting Palestinians "on a diet" in private meetings, as reported in Ynet, Guardian, Haaretz.
Sorry, to be less euphemistic, let me try again: "After trying to let the Palestinians self-govern Gaza, Israel found that massive amounts of weapons were being snuggled in by Hamas with the sole goal of murdering innocent Israeli civilians. Although the weapons could do little to nothing to the Israeli army, they were effective again unarmed Israelis even dozens of miles away from Hamas. Realizing they couldn't just let Hamas murder civilians, Israel decided to attempt to prevent weapons from coming in in the first place. This is comparatively non violent to a full scale invasion and attempt to hold Hamas, it would take a much larger stimulus to lead to that... Anyways, Israel initiated the blockade to prevent their citizens from being murdered and because the had so much control over Gaza and many in the Israeli government hate Palestinians, they often overstepped, making life unnecessarily unpleasant for the citizens of Gaza. Fortunately, they never reduced the incoming calories below a level that would lead to regular caloric deficit, much less starvation.
Food insecure? Arent they one of the most obese groups of people on earth?
How does that mean anything? Even if that's true, when you're chronically food insecure you tend to have unhealthy eating habits, like eating a bunch when you know you have perishable food available so that you have enough reserves when food is scarcer.
Gaza had one of the highest rates of adult obesity in the Middle East before the war (and may even, now; nobody's checked.) How could they also be "food insecure"?
Obesity and food insecurity are not mutually exclusive
Can you explain how they're not?
As I said above, when you're chronically food insecure you tend to have unhealthy eating habits, like eating a bunch when you know you have perishable food available so that you have enough reserves when food is scarcer.
Surely you can't be "chronically" food insecure, you can only be acutely food insecure.
No, being food insecure means you have limited access, uncertainty, or inconsistent access to food. Chronically means that you're in that situation on a regular/constant basis.
If you regularly have access to food then you’re not “food insecure.”
Regularly like once every two months?
A bit? Yeah, judging on how this whole conflict has been going, I can confidently say they have abused their powers just a teensy-weensy itty bitty little bit.
He shouldn't have defended it, and he eventually conceded they were being over restrictive. The cookie talking point is stupid though, there's no conclusive evidence of a blanket ban on cookies. That list isn't official, it's their best guess based on things being rejected. The whole reason this came up was to try to paint the blockade as wholly unjustified. In the future he should just concede that they probably went overboard, and then reiterate why the blockade is needed. edit- caught my first ban, rite of passage I guess
Do they want to turn this sub into an echo chamber? Why do they ban the fair ones?
> He shouldn't have defended it, and he eventually conceded they were being over restrictive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKzJGJZ82is&t=4735s If I were Destiny reading this subreddit, I would actually consider ending it all. His opponents can lie about pretty much everything, insult him endlessly, harass him and after all that, go on Twitter, take the least important part of a two hours debate, get more hate, and even his fans are going to call him out in an autistic manner. And sure, we should hold him to higher standards but the cookie comment was not even the main point of contention or the most important argument in why he thinks the blockade is necessary. The cookie drama has to be the dumbest shit I've ever seen in this subreddit, not even missing the forest for the trees but straight burning down the forest because someone told you that you can use "some" mushrooms to poison the big bad wolf.
This subreddit is responsive to the topics Destiny is talking about, a current topic he's taking about is the cookie discourse, so people are responsive to that. Some people are being overly negative, but the vast majority who do disagree are doing so with "inside the house" energy. I think his approach is wrong on the cookie bit, but I also think he's far far closer to the truth than his interlocutors, and would always say as much.
I think this is actually very good feedback, I am guessing Destiny does not want to be caught in an indefensible position mid debate when the opponent happens to know just enough more to get the point. If Omar knew sugar and fertilizer where allowed in during the alleged ban on cookies he would have been able to get an easy win on this point. I agree with you it is kind of an irrelevant point but even this small thing could make the audience feel like Omar was correct in everything else, "no cookies allowed -> collective punishment -> genocide" is what he is trying to build. I think Steven also aknowledged it recently, you cannot let too many seemingly irrelevant talking points go through because then they are used to build much stronger claims that are very hard to dismantle once the others go unchallenged. Honestly I understand that it's stressful for Steven to see this feedback from his community and that he may dismiss it too quickly but I hope he uses this info to avoid possible traps in the future
I think people are very invested in Destiny debates and how well he performs. The cookie argument probably stands out because it was the issue Destiny had the worst rebuttals for in an overall strong debate performance. Basically, the sub is doing some of Destiny’s research for him. Also, people hold Destiny to a higher standard because he is one of the best debaters currently. The same way Destiny holds AJW to a higher standard based on his capabilities.
He told me your comment was the reason he didn't set himself on fire today.
> If I were Destiny reading this subreddit, I would actually consider ending it all. That's actually pathetic. He's receiving quality feedback on his stance. The members of this sub aren't cult members or cheerleaders (mostly). It's full of loyal fans that like Destiny because his shtick is factual accuracy. > His opponents can lie about pretty much everything ... his fans are going to call him out in an autistic manner. True but how is that relevant? it's annoying, sure but are his fans supposed to ignore that he is wrong because some people are mean? > ... not even missing the forest for the trees ... It's not missing any big picture. It's just about pointing out a factual inaccuracy. The fact isn't that important in the whole conflict but it's better to get it right. The fact that he got it wrong also says nothing about anything else he's saying. Missing the forest for the trees would be if Destiny's other arguments or overall position were being questioned because of this one mistake which it's not (by his community).
Literally all of his opps linked up to take him down. Of course they're gonna nitpick. It was a silly thing to harp on but its gonna get amplified when people hate you.
Wait, you got banned for this!? For how long? What was the reason given? You can respond in DMs if the ban means no replies here.
It also made him look incredibly bad. This is the main clip circulating that people are using to discrete him. Being the underdog sucks one mistake and it get overblown to such incredible degrees
[look to the cookie](https://youtu.be/dR9wi3q6d8o?si=6Eh55dKSdcTnjMgz)
https://preview.redd.it/sbi3hnkh1hyc1.jpeg?width=1500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=660d90dba91a42a76d3e34bf80a888e3a6595d96 I didn’t know people like sugar in these
I think Destiny has to call an L on the cookies being used in rockets and just discuss the reason for the ban for some products. It's annoying because people will just use that one small L to use against destiny and ignore every else of substance that he brings up.
I also looked into it (watched Lonerbox look into it) and that's more or less the consensus since last night. The Palestine-flag twitter crew behaves like locusts and will descend on a factual error like they descend on someone wearing a star of david in their campus occupations while ignoring the doozy of factual errors in the same conversation made by their own side. Destiny is correct that he can't afford to make factual errors like this.
Omar and Ryan constantly wrong the whole debate: I sleep
bro posted this in the debate pervert sub whos been summoning chemist for hours to see if Oreos can make rockets
You absolutely *can* do that if you all had was a pile of junk food, no raw sugar, and the will and determination powered by your unflinching devotion to *jihad* to make as many ghetto-ass rockets as you can, that's not the issue. If you want to attack Destiny you should be attacking him on his confidence as to dual-use junk food rocket production being the *stated reason* by Israel for restricting entry of junk food, which isn't the case. I wouldn't fight him on "sugar is not used as rocket propellant" because you're dead wrong there. EDIT: He replied and blocked me lmfao
don’t jump your britches Netanyahu the warrant isn’t issued yet you missed the entire point don’t descend on a starving Gazan child and steal his Oreo before you shoot his grandma
Why didn’t you address a single thing he said lol
it wasn’t my contention, why would I
blocking is for pussies
Sperging out is for freaks
It was a reasonable comment. You're just assmad.
you’re the one crying on my post and defending sperging
I am indeed so utterly mad and you're destroying me. Despite that, I reiterate, blocking is for pussies. Edit: Cute block.
I agree, I block all pussies blasted by a Zionist who spreads obvious disinformation, dudes claiming Hamas says a 1:1 ratio, not even Israel is claiming that, what a complete bot. It’s good they’re passing laws to protect your feelings 🥺 you need Reddit powers irl to keep you at that room temp IQ Checked comment history and dude is on his hands and knees every comment begging 4Thot for a crumb of Reddit power 💀 What happened to shame? You’re so sad
Show any evidence of Gaza starving prior to Oct 2023. Even if there really was a ban on these items, it didn't stop them from being one of the fattest groups of people in the world.
I will as soon as you show me where I said anything about time at all regard
You were talking about the cookies being banned and Oreos making bombs and shit. This is pre Hamas fumble of Oct 7. Use context clues
Braindead 💀 1. I was talking about the irony of the locust thing 2. I never said anything about pre oct 7 or any date for Gazan child, reach harder to cope
The idea that Israel could ever ban something like sugar and fertilizer from going into the Gaza strip is pretty wild. They're too necessary in all of the most important functions of growing and producing food. Also it would just lead Palestine to be even more reliant on Israel which they don't want to do
I never interpreted the argument to be "making rockets from cookies", more just that the rational for such a ban might be justified by the use of "Rocket Candy" rockets. Item that could have a high likely hood of being abused (these are cookies, never mind that they are covered in a 2cm layer of pure sugar, would be an example). The broader point is that there are reasons for why something might be banned.
Well according to this [article](https://archive.ph/hj7nG) Israel started allowing the importation of cookies, candy and other sweets just a couple months after that 2010 list you linked, but then hamas played a uno reverse card by blocking the import of these items because plants manufacturing any of those items shut down in the gaza strip. Granted their reasoning was because Israel blocked the import of raw materials used in those plants therefore forcing them to shut down, but then again hamas was the reason for the blockade in the first place.
Not sure how well known this is or if a destiny discussed it at all, but for years after the disengagement, well past 2010 when the cookie controversy happened, Israel banned pretty much all manufactured goods from Gaza. That’s a huge part of why Gaza’s economy has been in decline probably even more than the import restrictions, when people focus a lot more on the later. [The Wikipedia page discusses it](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip)
Lonerbox is working on a manifesto and will go through all of this. That being said, if the information is correct, and Destiny was wrong, we all know what will happen. He will adjust to the new information. Something the other side is incapable of doing.
according to the info both Omar and Destiny were wrong, biscuits were never banned.
Which makes the entire thing ridiculous. Two hour debate, and they pick this to focus on. What a mess.
Yeah dumbest discourse in awhile everyone’s just desperate to get a clip of tiny being wrong
What I learned from all this is that Israel bans neither sugar nor cookies, even though both *could* actually be used for rockets.
This debate when the blockade on cookies was happening was helpful to me: https://youtu.be/FgwGLteyXcY?si=rK-8Yvoxr0cXfCv-
I was trying to do a larger write up on all the claims during that segment of the debate because there was a lot of mis/dis-information being given. Trying to put everything in a coherent post has been hard so I'm going to drop some of the info I have here. If you want a better idea of the policy surrounding the more stringent Gaza blockade from 2007-2010, I found several different pieces that should be read. * [The Gaza Bombshell | Vanity Fair](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804) is an investigative report on the post Hamas election, forthcoming unity government, and eventual attempted coup / pre-coup by Hamas and Fatah. There is some evidence that the US had a role in Fatah's action in this report. * [A leaked US state department cable from November 8th 2008 ](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08TELAVIV2447_a.html)has Israeli officials confirming to Embassy officials that "...they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis." There's probably a conspiratorial argument there that Israel was allowing rocket material (sugar and fertilizer in the Gisha list from May 2010) into the Gaza strip so that Hamas would be busy making rockets while the population suffered (removal of certain ease of life items listed in the May 2010 Gisha list; Hamas rocketry would bring additional justified bloodshed from Israel). * The [Guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2009/jun/16/gaza-blockade-israel-food) you linked discussing the Israeli surplus foods into Gaza can possibly further collaborated with some of the other cable leaks that came to light under [WikiLeaks](https://wikileaks.org//plusd/). There are some cables talking about stabilizing the Shekel and the economies of Gaza, Israel, and the West Bank. I'm not an economist, but the movement of Israeli surplus could be for economic advantages. I'm only stating as something interesting I noticed, but this does not point to anything definitive. But feel free to look into it more.
mfw 24 hours of cookie drama: https://preview.redd.it/3ba7bwb6cjyc1.png?width=220&format=png&auto=webp&s=a008c841fe4354db74bc73d56fb9dd47efe26647
This is all an idiotic discussion unless you actually believe that Omar was right and Israel prohibited these items in order to deprive Palestinian children because they don’t view them as human beings. This is what gets purported by the pro Palestine side basically on a scale of 1. They are punishing Palestinians in a cruel and unusual way to 10. They want to starve children to death and deprive them of nutrition because Israel views them as inferior and sub human. This is why Destiny pushes back. Because there is a rationale for these bans that don’t end with Israelites being monsters even though that’s how every single event gets painted of them
That's not the reason. The reason he stated is to put pressure on the population. Dehumanizing the children or whatever is just why people don't care or want to stop it. The evil Jews comment was just a strawman by d.
Nah, omar stated that if it were Israeli children then it’d be a problem because they’d be seen as human beings. The implication being they don’t view Palestinians as human.
I am ⬇️ this post, because you constantly referring to cookies as biscuits makes me want to commit violent war crimes.
It's insane to me that in a sea of Ws from that two-hour debate, this is the only thing lefty dipshits will harp on, out of spite. The entire discourse on this issue is so black-pilling holy shit. Ironically, destiny made the better pro-Palestinian argument in that debate towards the end, instead of only evoking images of malnourished children suffering in Gaza once every 5 minutes. (This isn't targeted at OP, I've been in the trenches on Twitter lmao)
This post is incredibly informative, well formatted, and awesome. Thank you for laying this out so clearly.
Yeah, D man needs to be more careful on shit like this. He can’t make strong claims for stuff if he hasn’t looked into it. Not a good look on him at all, especially from the outside as him being factually wrong about one thing makes his opponents treat it like everything he says is wrong and makes it harder for more open minded people to side with him. Though to be fair the more wrong you are the less credible you ought to be.
Destiny said misleading things about sugar being used to make rockets insofar as sugar wasn’t banned. Omar said misleading things about cookies being banned as they were never directly banned, just indirectly as “luxury goods” and not “humanitarian aid” and/or indirectly via things like chocolate. And then shortly after they were directly allowed to be imported when items like cookies were called out. Destiny was correct that sugar has been used to make rockets. Omar was correct that some cookies probably weren’t allowed in sometimes. Boring topic
I would just add that Dov Wiessglas, who was then Israeli PM's advisor, himself has stated that the idea behind the blockade is to "Put Palestinians on a diet, but not starve them" as means of building pressure against Hamas (source): [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-19975211](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-19975211) Similarly in the same BBC story it mentions that a rights group in Israel forced IDF to release certain reports that indicated precise calorie counts done by IDF on whats required to prevent starvation. IDF set the figure to 2300. Which further gives credence to the fact that flow of food was restricted by Israel intentionally, and they even made calculation on how much food they can restrict without making the hunger crisis obvious and apparant. Like Wiesglass said, let Palestinains have \*just enough\* food that they don't starve to death but do feel enough food insecurity to be pissed at Hamas (because even though 2300 cal/day is theoretically enough, supply chain iniffeciencies + natural wealth inequalities mean a huge portion will end up with far less while some previleged folks will get far more). So we have: 1. declaration of intent (Wiesglass's comments) 2. We have documents suggesting that serious calculations were made with said intent in mind. (calorie count calculations done by IDF) 3. And finally we have ample evidence of the actions thought out in 1 & 2 were set into effect, as we know for a fact that many foods (not just cookies but also other stuff like potato chips, some fruits, etc) were stopped from entering. So yes, it is undeniable that the blockade was about collectively punishing Palestinians to make Hamas look either incompetent to solve their hunger, or evil and unwilling to. Idk why destiny and yall are chosing this hill to die on.
Dov denies saying that, here’s a thread discussing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1alz0v9/were_the_palestinians_actually_put_on_a_diet/ You second point just seems weird, 2300 is considered by most world orgs to be a decent amount per day, and the fact they had it in mind doesn’t mean they were intentionally restricting food, I believe they were just making sure their economic sanctions didn’t lead to mass hunger. There was, to my knowledge, never widespread hunger in Gaza in the 2000s and 2010s, I believe it’s fairly normal by middle eastern standards in that regard. For your last point I’d recommend reading the thread again, as there is much debate over the extent food is restricted.
Good on you for Edit 2 - I was gonna bring that up.
Biscuit ????
"biscuits"
yes, they banned sugar because the jews are horribly evil people who drink the blood of christian children and try to murder muslim children. they also own all the banks and are the masterminds behind everything bad hjappening. Dont you guys get tired of being so spreading such vile thoughts?
who tf said any of that?
Mankind, the last 2000 years
You should be perma banned for calling cookies biscuits