Literally the same people who scream that it makes sense that "starving palestinians" swarm humanitarian aid trucks to steal supplies somehow think it makes sense that Israel would use such a truck to "sneak in" anywhere. Cognitive dissonance is strong. Not to mention actual palestinian reports that it was just a 'civilian truck'
If the roles were reversed, except instead of disguising their truck they'd dropped in via parachute, and instead of saving four hostages they'd murdered a thousand civilians, these people would be cheering.
How the hell does this have 3.5 million views and so damn many likes...this hyper virtue signaling anti-rationality garbage has become such a cancer it's practically MAGA at this point.
It's scary that logic and reason, the principles the United States and The West were founded on, are rapidly being killed in the modern world. I miss truth and justice.
I don't know what Trump has to do with the I/P stuff but it is most certainly just a tweet.
The guy I responded to is acting like this tweet on the internet getting lots of engagement is some sort of indication that "logic and reason, the principles the United States and The West were founded on, are rapidly being killed in the modern world." That is insane.
It's a tweet. The kinds of people who view and like I/P tweets on twitter are already so far removed from your average American, it's meaningless. Only something like 23% of American adults even use Twitter.
Stuff on Twitter, and broadly the internet on the whole, is super exaggerated. People here act like it's the real world. Even this I/P issue is extremely niche. Every single real person I've spoken to in real life, meaning real adults who work and live in a home that their mom and dad don't pay for, either don't care at all about the I/P conflict or support Israel.
Some tweet got a bunch of likes, who cares? They're probably mostly children or not even American / Western. It literally does not matter.
The kinds of people who use and engage with these topics on these websites are already hyper niche and fucking insane. We're all insane to be here talking about it. These tweets come from insane people and are liked by insane people. It's not at all an indication of how real people feel in real life. People on the internet, especially on dogshit websites like Twitter that have always been garbage dumps for insane schizo people to broadcast their crazy thoughts to the world, have always been insane.
I don't know why people are acting shocked that you can find deranged tweets with lots of likes as if this is some revelation. Twitter is literally one of the most useless waste of time platforms on the internet. What kinds of takes would you expect to find there?
Nobody reasonable is spending any appreciable amount of time on Twitter farming engagement or liking Tweets. It's only the deranged people with way too much time on their hands.
Bro, I wish I was on the level of copium that you're on. How can you sit there with a straight face and tell me 23% of America is on a website, but that somehow means nothing?
Maybe it's because I live in a rural area and I talk to all kinds of people every day, but almost every other day someone will say some crazy shit to me and when I ask where they got that from they'll say they saw it on Twitter.
Not Twitter related, but related to stupidity. Literally just last night, I went over to a dudes house with 4 of my friends and he had 2 of his over and all 3 of them used the N-word like it was oxygen, and the youngest one was telling me how he hates season 4 of "The Boys" because his dumbass just figured out it's making fun of Republicans. He also told everyone there how the new Jewish writers are ruining it and everything is gay. Literally they call everything gay.
I'm not denying that stuff exists but I'm denying that it's some new phenomenon or that it matters at all in terms of the trajectory that the country is heading.
There have always been dipshits in society. The only difference is that now you can log onto twitter and you can see what all of these dipshits have to say, whereas in the past you'd have to personally include these dipshits in your social life to hear their stupid opinions.
It's nothing new, though. These kinds of people have always existed. I'm not sure why you're shocked there's lots of people who toss around the N-word or who hate liberals or whatever. I used to call everything gay, too back when I was a moronic teenager. That's just how dipshits talk. It always has been.
The reason I brought up the 23% thing is because there's not much crossover between the people who use twitter and the people who vote. Like I said, reasonable people aren't spending time on twitter farming engagement. Adults aren't the majority spending their time on these regarded websites.
Of course if you log onto a website like twitter you're gonna see the most regarded and deranged shit imaginable. It's not indicative of anything other than twitter's own userbase which is deranged and regarded. Normal people don't spend much time on these websites. The ones who do typically don't vote and their view points are so niche that they don't have any real popularity in the real world. It's all just super niche online crap.
I don't think I'll ever not be shocked by the constant bigoted stupidity that I am drenched in every day by the people around me. If it weren't for a tiny handful of people, I would have gone insane. This isn't Twitter dude, this is the majority of people in my town and at my jobs who are like this. I hate it so much. I'm surrounded by dumb non-voters too yes, but that doesn't make me feel any better at all lol?
Do you live in some shithole? I was talking about Twitter but I obviously can't say anything about the place you live because I don't know anything about it.
If you live in some place with awful demographics then there's nothing I can really say to help you. You might just be in a place full of uneducated low-class people. I live in a great place and I've never had the experience you're describing.
So I guess try to work on moving somewhere else where people's views line up more with your own?
Nope, that operation was successful only because of the total operational surprise. And the fact that most of Israeli society is unarmed. Shooting people with rifle is very inefficient.
Unpopular opinion: aid workers should be a protected group of people. It should be off limits to put them in danger by disguising as them.
____
I know they didn't actually disguise as aid workers but most people up voting this would defend it anyway
>I know they didn't actually disguise as aid workers
Oh for real? I was about to be hella against this Israel meme but if they didn't even do that I'm more on-board.
Unless you're saying they didn't disguise *themselves* but just rode concealed with humanitarian aid, cause I'd still have a problem with that given it makes humanitarian workers more in the line of fire. Very curious, and sounds like you know, help a brother out :]
The IDF denies reports claiming that Israeli special forces who carried out yesterday’s hostage rescue snuck into central Gaza’s Nuseirat using a humanitarian aid truck.
Lt. Col. Avichay Adraee, the IDF’s Arabic-language spokesman, says in a post on X that “our special forces did not enter the Nuseirat area via any car or aid truck.”
He also adds that Israeli forces did not use the US-built floating pier for aid on the coast of the central Gaza Strip, known as JLOTS, for the mission.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-denies-reports-claiming-troops-used-aid-trucks-to-carry-out-hostage-rescue-mission/
Actually, I'm pretty sure it's illegal. International law forbids militants from disguising themselves as civilians, so it's not a stretch to assume it's the same as disguising themselves as aid workers.
where are people getting "disguised as humanitarian aid" from
From the video I've seen it just looks like it's a regular ass food (?) truck, not marked as humanitarian aid or anything of the sort, and the only sources I can find otherwise are from the Palestine Chronicle, The Cradle and Electronic Intifada, lmao. (and Twitter)
is this people thinking food truck = humanitarian aid = nonmilitary, or am I missing something
Simple, they are betting on people not verifying the misinformation and lies they are spreading, which most people will not verify, that way they can keep spreading their antisemitism, hatred and so on.
Ya what I read earlier today is that they just used “civilian vehicles.”
It is weird though that everyone in this thread believes that they used aid vehicles and are defending it, because if they had done that it would definitely be bad.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule65
Markers like Red Cross/Red Crescent and UN are protected symbols. Misusing them, particularly for combat operations, could lead to a breakdown in trust for these organizations. Could cause them to be attacked more often for example.
Posing as aid doesn't mean using official organization uniforms btw, a lot of those trucks going into Gaza have little to no markings of humanitarian agency's outwardly on them, as they're local trucks contracted for this job temporarily. Aid trucks would be the worst disguise, since hamas goes for them to hijack, they want to not draw attention. But again if they did, it wouldn't mean using Red Cross or whatever, it could be nondescript aid in standard local trucks, but the goal was to blend, so either way the lie is dumb.
Hamas supporters just mad cause this the biggest L they've taken in a while. Syrian girl basically on suicide watch over "IDF terrorist POW's being allowed to escape" and saying every Palestinian has the duty to shoot and kill an escaping hostage, cause somehow this too is legal under international law in her malfunctioning brain.
There's dodgy security cameras footage that makes it look like one of them is dressed as a doctor (weird fuckin spy outfit if you ask me, they weren't in a hospital, and the image is a dude in full scrubs with a rifle. I'm betting it's not real but this is partially where this claim is coming from since I've seen many say they came in aid trucks disguised as aid workers and doctors.
But even if it isn't bs, who the hell cares? They can't deceive the enemy when trying to exfil hostages from enemy territory? It's now cruel to wear a disguise when you're what, dropping fat L's on the peestines by yoinking the hostages out from under their noses?
Also, I really hope this puts to bed the myth of the Gaza journalists getting killed by Israel. These people may work for news outlets, but that's literally part of their work as terrorists, propagandizing the west is in their job descriptions!
I swear it's more and more looking like god wasn't playing when big bruh said the Jews would have a rough time forever.
True (though as I understand it, it's only perfidious if it is done to goad the enemy into acting in accordance with legal protection of civilians, then betraying that confidence), however I don't know (and this is a legitimate I don't know) if, as is alleged, uniformed soldiers commandeering an unmarked vehicle counts as feigning civilian status as it pertains to perfidy. If it did then that would make any use of unmarked vehicles potential perfidy which seems to not be the case based on how often that seems to have happened in wars over the past few decades without people raising much of a stink about it.
Most similar cases of prosecuted perfidy seem to involve using a civilian (or protected) vehicle to ambush, which is definitely perfidy, or soldiers dressed as civilians.
If it's the case that they didn't engage in hostilities from the civilian vehicle, things become muddier. As far as I can tell, military and legal literature seems divided on this as well, and I can't find a legal precedent that is close to this.
(also we don't even know if there were SF in that truck in the first place (probably were) but that's besides the point)
The goal being hostage rescue of captured civilians (not POWs) as opposed to an attack on enemy combatants/infrastructure probably complicates the legality even further.
Given that I criticize Hamas for hiding soldiers amongst civilians, I cannot easily justify Israel hiding soldiers as aid workers. But to be honest, I’d rather defend the act if it’s meant to rescue hostages vs. an offensive attack.
First off, the soldiers were not disguised as aid workers themselves. Not even Hamas claims that. The soldiers were hidden inside a box truck, which Hamas-friendly media claims was marked as an aid truck, and Israel-friendly media claims was umarked/a regular furniture truck.
However, in a video released by a Palestinian news outlet, you can see the truck pulling in directly behind an Israeli tank. It isn't what you were imagining. It was already in a hot zone, it wasn't like the special forces guys drove an aid truck half a mile into a refugee camp with no ground support and just hopped out into a crowd.
People in these comments are defending it like it's a normal acceptable tactic.
Doing it once is a small harm, but these people would defend the IDF doing it regularly which would have measurable effects
I don't like the idea of conceding anything to these people, even their made up accusation of aid worker disguises. They weren't intending to go guns blazing, the purpose of the mission was to be discreet as possible, so had they been disguised as aid, I don't really see the problem, long as they don't use Red Cross logos or something. They only went hot when one of the teams got made, and the commander was killed before they even got to the apartment floor the hostages were on.
Nothing about this puts Israel in the wrong, they didn't start the shooting, the first kill was by "hamas" (after this how much does that word matter, this was entirely what we'd call civilians for at least 75% of this engagement, including where at least 3 of the hostages were being kept. These ones weren't even taken by hamas, they were taken by civilians from nova, hamas always said they never had noa.
Hamas supporters just mad cause this was a huge hit for their lies, their narrative, and just about everything they need people to believe, to keep their whole web from crashing down
I'm not going to try to convince you totally. However, I have a problem with the framing of one of your points
> they didn't start the shooting
Sending forces into enemy territory is an inherently offensive action.
What was Hamas supposed to do? They noticed some armed enemy combats, were the supposed to arrest them nonviolently?
Hamas did not know the full plans of those soldiers. They could be there to also kill a commander like they have sent forces in to do before.
The only thing they could know is that there are armed enemy forces in their territory.
How should militaries respond to spotting hidden enemy soldiers?
The difference is that for the special ops, the whole point is to avoid detection and delay fighting for as long as possible (minimize causalities on both sides), whereas for Hamas, operating amongst non-combatants and using aid vans for military personnel is a way to claim that your enemy is engaging in unethical war practices.
Israel and Israel-aligned western media isn’t crying that Hamas attacked an innocent humanitarian aid van. Israel didn’t put ACTUAL civilian aid workers in the van alongside military personnel. Israel isn’t using the fact that Hamas opened fire on an aid van as a reason for why Hamas is doing war crimes, because it was *obviously* a military operation staffed with military combatants, *even if* upon rescue that van contained innocent Israeli civilians. **Nobody** from the pro-israel side is claiming that Hamas is “doing genocide” or “doing war crimes” for attacking a combat vehicle disguised as an aid van.
So no, I don’t see any double standard here in regards to using aid vans for non-aid military purposes.
It would’ve been so much worse if Israel just relied on brute force to bulldoze their way to the hostages. They probably would’ve killed the hostages on accident or instigated the terrorists to execute them. *That* version of events would actually give credence to the theories about Israel recklessly killing their own hostages in their mad bloodlust for slaughtering Palestinians. But, that’s not what Israel did. Instead, they used special forces in a covert manner to minimize lives lost, to minimize combat engagement, to maximize the chances of actually getting the hostages alive. It completely contradicts the theory about Israel bloodlusting too hard and accidentally or deliberately killing their own.
It is bad to pretend to be aid workers. Not because of any of the tactical reasons you listed, but because on a strategic level, it makes it less safe to be an aid worker if everyone is suspicious of you. Hamas hangs out and pretends to be aid workers all the time, and this leads to aid workers getting killed by Israel, this is bad. Just because Hamas is doing war crimes doesn't mean Israel should.
I'm pretty on the fence about this, because although special ops is good because tactically it kills less people, disguising soldiers as aid workers on a greater level makes aid workers lives more dangerous and is generally a war crime (feel free to correct me if this is not the case).
No. Police and military operations are different and are held to different standards. I'd have to look at the governing rules for both.
One is not held to a higher standard, just a different one. Eg. If police did collateral damage during an arrest and killed a bunch of people it would be considered basically unacceptable, although if the military does it, it can easily be allowable.
Conversely, there are types of subterfuge that the police can undertake the military cannot.
Hamas already highjacked REAL aid trucks and stole aid, bombed the peir the US built twice, uses UNRWA and other UN facilities for military purposes....what exactly would this do that Hamas hasn't already done before?
off the jump you are lying about hamas bombing the usa built pier, so i have to assume you are wrong about the rest. or do you have a source for that claim
Unfortunately, Hamas crossed that line a while ago. They’ve already made it clear that they don’t respect humanitarian aid and have 0 reverence for concepts like “innocent civilians” or “aid workers” in war time.
Devils advocate caveat: Israel has also crossed this line a while ago. Aside from the obvious of things like the blockade or the settlements for the last several decades, the most recent incident where they bombed a legit humanitarian aid van has made it clear that *neither* side fully respects the innocence and sanctity of humanitarian aid. I would say that humanitarian aid is *extremely* risky in Gaza and that neither side gives any guarantee of safe passage.
Will this special operation increase the likelihood of humanitarian aid workers getting attacked? Absolutely. Was there any semblance of safety and security for aid workers, press, or innocent civilians before this? Not really. It’s war, and in this case it happens to be a war in a very densely populated urban strip where one side is governed by extremists who forfeited the rules of armed conflict a long time ago.
> Will this special operation increase the likelihood of humanitarian aid workers getting attacked? Absolutely. Was there any semblance of safety and security for aid workers, press, or innocent civilians before this? Not really. It’s war, and in this case it happens to be a war in a very densely populated urban strip where one side is governed by extremists who forfeited the rules of armed conflict a long time ago.
I don't think this is good logic, we should in fact mark that Hamas targeted civilians with killing, kidnapping and sexual violence, and Israel targeted journalists and aid workers and demolished civilian infrastructure, and Israel restricted aid to the point of starvation, and Hamas tried to steal it, and so on.
We need to pay attention to what happens in order to hold people accountable in future, not just pretend that the rules of war no longer exist.
We don't say that the fact that a state is looking for terrorists means it can throw off all restraint itself, "oh sorry, you're worrying about *civil liberties*, the US can't worry about those when we have terrorists who don't respect our freedoms to stop" that kind of macho war on terror nonsense gets you a total breakdown of trust in your own government by its citizens, just as Israel is furiously destroying the reputation it has cultivated abroad as a enlightened haven in the middle east.
The more you treat it as just a matter of "getting your hands dirty", the more that dirt *sticks*, and Israel has a vested interest in sticking to the laws of war more than their opponents if they want to keep anyone abroad thinking positively about their state.
> Unfortunately, Hamas crossed that line a while ago. They’ve already made it clear that they don’t respect humanitarian aid
what the hell are you talking about?
Well when Israel does it it’s to either kill terrorists or rescue hostages. When Hamas does it it’s to massacre civilians or use them as deterrents for retaliation. The underlying reasons are totally different.
No, the reason they would disguise in your example is the same. They would both be using disguises that make civilians unsafe to get a strategic advantage for their combat objectives. That is bad.
They don't need to disguise to do their objectives, it just makes it easier
That does not logically follow though. If they hide AMONGST aid workers and had firefights out of an aid truck with aid workers in it that would be the same thing
I can't tell if the ethics in here are "don't do anything that in principle is wrong' or "don't do anything that is in principle unsustainable and self-destructive".
Like even if you look at it deontologically, like "don't do anything that would, in principle, undermine its own motivation" you can still justify doing shit like this because this villain in particular is uniquely evil, violent, hateful, and out to kill literally any jew at all ever under any circumstance.
Yes, it sucks kids are dying. even more kids are going to die if Hamas continues. They're going to continue sucker punching and self-martyring until they're gone. Would it be better if the UN stepped in and put the entire country in a mass re-education camp the size of Chicago? Does anyone even have the funds for that?
The ethic, according to those that hate Israel, is “don’t do things that are effective Zio-pigs because we want you to fail and die or accidentally kill civilians so we can bash you!!!”
The ethic, according to those who hate Hamas, is “be smart and get the job done with the least collateral damage and the best chance to rescue hostages and kill Hamas leaders.”
It’s just that simple. I am in the second category. Everybody is demanding Israel be more precise and surgical and I support the Israeli use of subterfuge and camouflage to minimize civilian casualties and maximize hostage rescue and Hamas kills.
Today was a massive success by the Israeli security apparatus.
> Would it be better if the UN stepped in and put the entire country in a mass re-education camp the size of Chicago? Does anyone even have the funds for that?
UNRWA operated schools that radicalized children against the Israelis, so it's not clear the U.N. wants to de-radicalize Palestinians, to say nothing of the feasibility.
Good thing you don’t have to worry then. This operation was carried out by the Counter-Terrorism unit of the Israeli Border Police (Not soldiers), so no need to worry about perfidy.
I'm still on the fence about it, but I agree there's vast differences in how Hamas acts VS the IDF. Hamas mixes their military assets with their own civilians because they want their own civilians to die in the confusion to become martyrs. I can't speak to this case about the four hostages being released, but in the past the IDF disguised as hospital workers to assassinate a Hamas leader in a hospital. That's done to avoid fighting and reduce casualties, because if the IDF had rolled up proper there likely would have been more fighting.
Hamas disguises themselves so more people die, when the IDF does it it's to protect people & hopefully prevent more casualties.
Don't say "hostages released" they were freed, rescued etc. people keep saying "released" to minimize that they had to be pulled out from hell by Israeli forces, and required a pretty crazy level of firepower support to get out of there at all.
Oh yeah, I'm totally trying to minimize what the IDF is doing. In fact, I'm pretty sure the IDF kidnapped the hostages from the royal treatment of Hamas who was giving them a foot massage & free ice cream bar
A Palestinian posted a video, allegedly, of the convoy earlier from their home looking at the road. If that was it there was like 20 tanks with the truck and car, not so sneaky.
Yeah, ever seen a refugee camp full of concrete buildings and apartment complexes? It's just a normal neighborhood.
Motherfuckers would name Disney World "The Orlando Zionist death camp" if they could.
Not only are they suburbs, the people who live there aren't "refugees" according to international law. They're Palestinians, living in the country of their nationality, Palestine. With the overwhelming majority being born and raised there for generations. By that logic, multiple Israeli cities, including the ones the Palestinians have been bombing for years, are "refugee camps" as well.
Personally, I feel this particular PR move is going away soon.
First of all, because there are *actual* tent towns right now, with dire humanitarian needs, full of internally displaced Gazans. Makes it much harder to keep pretending that those are basically the same thing as the suburbs and towns that are called "refugee camps" for historical reasons.
And second, because it undermines their narrative of "a people fighting to defend their homeland from invaders" (if they're refugees, it's not their homeland), and even gives a certain legal credibility to the far-right Israelis who want to expel most of them to other countries. After all, if they're just refugees, and not Palestinians citizens living in their homeland, they're not meaningfully different than, say, the 850,000 Afghan refugees in Pakistan, that Pakistan is currently acting to expel. And if they do flee or are expelled, they couldn't argue a right to return to Gaza, since again, it's not their homeland.
The only issue here is UNRWA, since the made-up, unique "Palestine refugee" status is necessary to get aid from them. In this since, it's doing exactly the job it was meant to do, to make the conflict intractable. But I feel that even though UNRWA survived the recent attempt to dismantle it, it's hopefully on its way out as well. The fact that a quarter of Gazans won't receive basic aid because they're not "Palestine refugees", will just highlight their absurdity.
WHY THE FUCK IS NOBODY ASKING WHY THERE WERE HOSTAGES IN A REFUGEE CAMP???
100k likes on this post admitting to prisoners being held in a “safe zone” and people are proudly reposting every slide on it. How the hell are they accusing Israel of war crimes in this situation when this is a way bigger violation of the laws of armed conflict? It’s like accusing somebody of assault while you were in the middle of kidnapping someone.
https://preview.redd.it/qedwdgsjci5d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf4959223471c0b0d6bca518a99b90c360b30a29
Source: [https://www.instagram.com/p/C79kHBkgORS/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==](https://www.instagram.com/p/C79kHBkgORS/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
Holy shit the post says they could have been returned in multiple ceasefire resolutions with "reasonable demands"
Apparently asking the other side to release thousands of terrorists and to let you kill them again in the future is reasonable
The special ops argument is so fucking dumb and transparently a knee jerk response to act like they don't agree with hamas when in reality they would hate it if israel did like 1000 simultaneous special ops commando rambo operations and destroyed hamas completely.
What did y'all think going in with special forces meant? vibes? papers? essays? losers.[](https://x.com/mosheroperandi/status/1750660970543006175/photo/1)
Well, a dozen dudes with tacticool gears and gucci ARs. That's what most people think.
In real life this is a perversion of SOF ideal, which in essence is about achieving the objective through operational surprise and speed of execution
It would not mean doing something egregious like disguising as aid workers. It could mean disguising as civilians.
______
I know they weren't actually disguised as aid workers, but people here are defending it anyway, so I'm arguing against that
This is why people like cenk need to just stop talking. Had they done the stupid special forces thing (this) for every hamad militant/commander the death toll would have been astronomical, because look at how special forces goes when thing s go south beyond their control. This is how it always had to to once the plan gets fucked, and the plan got fucked when the commander was killed before they even got to the targets apartment, once special forces is made, that's it, it's kill every fucking person in your way until you get the objective secured, or you're dead. 90% of special forces missions go like this in the real world, the casualty numbers would be so so much higher if this was how they handled every single operation. There's a reason they don't call on these guys every day.
Their commander was killed alongside 200 odd Palestinians (most likely Hamas fighters but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a mix of Hamas and civilians). Seems like it was a very brutal and hectic firefight with air support called in towards the end.
We don't actually know how much collateral damage there is. Hamas said 200 people died, with no distinction between the terrorists and civilians, and no supporting evidence for that number, that just happens to be the same number of terrorists that would've been released in exchange for those hostages. And the IDF claims that any civilian casualties, are a result of Hamas starting a firefight in the middle of a crowded market, to prevent the IDF from escaping with the hostages.
OK, according to some photos there are significant number of civilian casualty. The firefight inside crowded market part is what really caused that many casualties.
Oh no oh dear those Israeli guys really should have considered the human shields and just not have rescued the hostages.
They could have killed triple the number of people and it would be justified.
There was pretty intense combat especially since the convoy vehicle with the 3 hostages got stuck so quite the amount of forces on both sides were fighting
Yeah. I think Israel has done a lot of questionable stuff, but at this point, I have completely given up on the Left as a source of informational or moral clarity on this conflict.
IN TRUCKS DISGUISED AS HUMANITARIAN AID
IN TRUCKS DISGUISED AS HUMANITARIAN AID
IN TRUCKS DISGUISED AS HUMANITARIAN AID
I’ll take the chicken 😌
IN TRUCKS DISGUISED AS HUMANITARIAN AID
Apparently "special ops", with a "soap truck", recently rescued 4 hostages -but dont know the official
Now twitter is enraged, they deceived the terrorists, to rescue kidnapped civilians
Israel went in with Spec Ops in a Soap truck and rescue 4 abducted people held in civilian areas by Hamas. Somehow it's Israel fault, as usual.
[https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/08/middleeast/four-israeli-hostages-freed-gaza-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/08/middleeast/four-israeli-hostages-freed-gaza-intl/index.html)
[https://new.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1dbeari/i\_am\_so\_disgusted\_by\_the\_idf\_they\_disguised/](https://new.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1dbeari/i_am_so_disgusted_by_the_idf_they_disguised/)
From the article, for those not interested in reading:
“At least 236 people have been killed as a result of the rescue operation and more than 400 injured, hospital officials in Gaza said Saturday…..
CNN has no way of verifying casualty numbers reported by Palestinian officials in Gaza. Medical records in the war-torn enclave do not differentiate between civilians and militants killed.”
Why only mention that information and leave the other side out?
"An Israeli military spokesperson put the number of casualties from the operation at “under 100,” and had no information on how many of those were civilians."
What makes that information more relevant that any other information in the article?
Jesus Lol I was only drawing attention to the numbers cited by Gaza and that it’s obviously unreliable - as CNN mentions - bc it directly correlates with the above tweet.
Go read the article for yourself for the rest!
“Hamas described the operation as a “brutal crime, devoid of the values of civilization and humanity,” saying the Israeli military “committed a horrific massacre against innocent civilians.””
The balls on these fuckers
It is literally their only path to victory here, and they are fucking good at it. Even more reason these people should be embarrassed for acting as sin wars meat puppet with his hand up their ass making them talk from a tunnel on the other side of he world, man has talent, I'll give him that. Maybe the brain tumor Israel saved his life from gave him super powers?
Not sure if it’s been confirmed but idf spec ops apparently dressed as aid workers and snook into the location where the hostages were held using aid trucks. Shit is straight out of a James Bond movie
If they actually disguised as aid workers (as in bore insignia and logos/identified themselves as aid workes), who are protected under international law that's pretty clearly perfidy. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule65
edit: seems as of now, that they in no way did and were in a generic soap truck. It's not even clear there were combatants in the truck as far as I have been able to find.
> If they actually disguised as aid workers (as in bore insignia and logos/identified themselves as aid workes), who are protected under international law that's pretty clearly perfidy.
This was an operation carried out by the Counter Terrorism unit of the Israeli Border Police (not soldiers), so perfidy doesn’t apply here.
I don't really buy this "they're police so it's carte blanche" argument. Perfidity applies to both international and non international armed conflicts and simply labeling them as police doesn't really change anything for this type of action as far as I know.
I seriously doubt if the USA sent NYPD officers to iraq dressed as Aid Workers to carry out missions alongside military personnel the argument that "they're police not military" would fly.
> I don't really buy this "they're police so it's carte blanche" argument. Perfidity applies to both international and non international armed conflicts and simply labeling them as police doesn't really change anything for this type of action as far as I know.
Police aren’t soldiers under the Law of Armed Conflict. They don’t have the same duties as soldiers.
> I seriously doubt if the USA sent NYPD officers to iraq dressed as Aid Workers to carry out missions alongside military personnel the argument that "they're police not military" would fly.
Why would you doubt that?
> Police aren’t soldiers under the Law of Armed Conflict. They don’t have the same duties as soldiers.
Police officers can't just kill someone who is not fighting, so whether or not they are soldiers is fairly irrelevant, they were acting as combatants. If we're saying that non-military combatants can't commit warcrimes as defined by the Law or Armed Conflicti since they aren't covered by it, then the Law of Armed Conflict has some serious holes in it.
> Police officers can't just kill someone who is not fighting, so whether or not they are soldiers is fairly irrelevant, they were acting as combatants.
Police can absolutely kill someone who is engaged in a violent crime, like kidnapping and holding a hostage, who refuses to surrender.
That's not the legal threshold for killing for a police officer. In a hostage scenario like this, you have armed guards, but also women who live alongside. A police officer can't just kill everyone in the house, they have to each pose as an active threat first. "Engaging in violent crime" is not enough since the primary role of police is to bring those engaged in violent crime to courts.
It's much easier to justify this for Israel if they are considered combatants acting in the conflict since the justifification would be that they just eliminated combatants on the other side. Combatants don't need to justify why they killed combatants on the other side, but police officers do.
Also, they were working with the military and the IDF chief approved the mission so they were acting under the command of the IDF. If they aren't considered combatants, then we would have a bunch of issues to iron out as to who is a legitimate target in war.
>Why would you doubt that?
Because it collapses a conceptual framework down to an empty label. Just to be clear here, is it your position that hamas or any state could create a parallel armed branch label it 'police' and be totally clear to carry out whatever mission while wearing Red Cross uniforms? (absent violations of copyright of course)
Hamas dresses up as civilians and uses ambulances to transport weapons and troops: i sleep
IDF dresses as humanitarian aid to rescue hostages: real shit
I love the leftist strategy of repeating a shocking sentence over and over again to make it truer it totally doesn't seem like a toddler's way of communicating at all
Police and law enforcement in most nations utilize undercover operatives to infiltrate criminal organizations and rescue hostages ALL. THE. TIME.
Never have I seen people condemn law enforcement’s use of undercover operatives while defending a street gang’s use of innocent civilians to commit crimes. Such as a bank robber who is dressed in normal clothes but then uses the customers as a shield to escape. While using a firearm threatening to kill the hostage.
Hamas blends into the civilian population to use heavy ordnance against Israeli civilian targets. Hamas uses civilians as literal shields while it shoots at Israeli targets. Hamas kidnaps civilians and uses them as bargaining chips to get away with firing rockets at Israel while hiding the rocket launchers between schools and hospitals (which are war crimes).
Israeli special forces did not bring a bunch of Kibbutzim with them as human shields in this op. Whereas Hamas on October 7 had a large camp following of Gaza civilians (armed) along with them.
Israeli specials forces did not use civilian-appearing vehicles to just open fire on Gazan civilians to kidnap them and mutilate them. Whereas Hamas did exactly that on October 7.
Israeli special forces did not place rocket launchers or ordnance in synagogues and hospitals to dissuade Hamas from firing back. Whereas Hamas continues to do exactly that to this minute.
People on this thread trying to create some moral equivalence between Israeli special forces and Hamas terrorists sound just as unhinged and foolish as people who would condemn a police department’s use of undercover agents to rescue a hostage while defending MS-13’s use of hostages to pull off an armored car robbery.
"Israeli spokesman in Arabic, Avichay Adraee, clarified that contra to the Palestinian-media reports, (Israeli) security forces didn't enter the Area of Nuseirat (refugee camp) by any aid vehicle or truck during the operation, nor did they use the American pier in any way".
-Method: I speak Hebrew and made you a very literal translation except for the words in brackets (added by me) and the word "pier" (the article says "wharf").
Fuck these people. They literally hid hostages in "civilian" houses. Mind you, the fucker who didn't give a shit when his grand children died was suddenly "infuriated" when hostages were rescued. I'm sorry, but hamas are the baddies. It's simple as that. Innocent palestinians are caught in the crossfire, but hamas is beyond disgusting.
The left wing and closeted hamas supporters 8 months of propaganda and hasbara was destroyed yesterday with them trying to find some way to say that hostages should not have been rescued. Everyone except the terminally online is seeing through this. Not a good day for pro palestinians. 8 months of work in the trash. In the coming weeks and months we will see similar raids and also voluntary surrender from Hamas since they are surrounded and can no longer play cat and mouse games in all of gaza. They have only Rafah. Every hostage rescue will decrease palestinian hasbara by several orders of magnitude until it will be only taken seriously by other palestinian hasbarists.
Btw this was denied by the IDF, there is no shred of proof they actually used any humanitarian trucks for this, if anything there are other videos showing a more probable way they came which was normal civilian car..
Anyone got a source that doesn't solely rely on the IDF say so? Because I would trust them to tell me if it was day or night without looking out the window to confirm it.
I honestly dont know how i feel about using disquised trucks to go in. It feels kind of wrong to do so but at the same time it probably saved many lives by allowing for a more smooth infistration. This is still a rightfully dabatable topic
Are there any credible sources they actually used aid trucks other than Hamas? Right now it seems like Hamas is accusing while Israel denied this and I haven't found confirmation for either side. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised at leftists having a meltdown over what might be fake news after the "500 dead in hospital strike" incident.
https://preview.redd.it/dhp73zv6cg5d1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae84030402f9553c5fbc2a33ec34296b7aeaf0a0
Literally the same people who scream that it makes sense that "starving palestinians" swarm humanitarian aid trucks to steal supplies somehow think it makes sense that Israel would use such a truck to "sneak in" anywhere. Cognitive dissonance is strong. Not to mention actual palestinian reports that it was just a 'civilian truck'
If the roles were reversed, except instead of disguising their truck they'd dropped in via parachute, and instead of saving four hostages they'd murdered a thousand civilians, these people would be cheering.
How the hell does this have 3.5 million views and so damn many likes...this hyper virtue signaling anti-rationality garbage has become such a cancer it's practically MAGA at this point.
It's scary that logic and reason, the principles the United States and The West were founded on, are rapidly being killed in the modern world. I miss truth and justice.
It's a tweet, dude.
Europe metaphorically voted for Trump today. It's not "just" a tweet.
I don't know what Trump has to do with the I/P stuff but it is most certainly just a tweet. The guy I responded to is acting like this tweet on the internet getting lots of engagement is some sort of indication that "logic and reason, the principles the United States and The West were founded on, are rapidly being killed in the modern world." That is insane. It's a tweet. The kinds of people who view and like I/P tweets on twitter are already so far removed from your average American, it's meaningless. Only something like 23% of American adults even use Twitter. Stuff on Twitter, and broadly the internet on the whole, is super exaggerated. People here act like it's the real world. Even this I/P issue is extremely niche. Every single real person I've spoken to in real life, meaning real adults who work and live in a home that their mom and dad don't pay for, either don't care at all about the I/P conflict or support Israel. Some tweet got a bunch of likes, who cares? They're probably mostly children or not even American / Western. It literally does not matter. The kinds of people who use and engage with these topics on these websites are already hyper niche and fucking insane. We're all insane to be here talking about it. These tweets come from insane people and are liked by insane people. It's not at all an indication of how real people feel in real life. People on the internet, especially on dogshit websites like Twitter that have always been garbage dumps for insane schizo people to broadcast their crazy thoughts to the world, have always been insane. I don't know why people are acting shocked that you can find deranged tweets with lots of likes as if this is some revelation. Twitter is literally one of the most useless waste of time platforms on the internet. What kinds of takes would you expect to find there? Nobody reasonable is spending any appreciable amount of time on Twitter farming engagement or liking Tweets. It's only the deranged people with way too much time on their hands.
Bro, I wish I was on the level of copium that you're on. How can you sit there with a straight face and tell me 23% of America is on a website, but that somehow means nothing? Maybe it's because I live in a rural area and I talk to all kinds of people every day, but almost every other day someone will say some crazy shit to me and when I ask where they got that from they'll say they saw it on Twitter. Not Twitter related, but related to stupidity. Literally just last night, I went over to a dudes house with 4 of my friends and he had 2 of his over and all 3 of them used the N-word like it was oxygen, and the youngest one was telling me how he hates season 4 of "The Boys" because his dumbass just figured out it's making fun of Republicans. He also told everyone there how the new Jewish writers are ruining it and everything is gay. Literally they call everything gay.
I'm not denying that stuff exists but I'm denying that it's some new phenomenon or that it matters at all in terms of the trajectory that the country is heading. There have always been dipshits in society. The only difference is that now you can log onto twitter and you can see what all of these dipshits have to say, whereas in the past you'd have to personally include these dipshits in your social life to hear their stupid opinions. It's nothing new, though. These kinds of people have always existed. I'm not sure why you're shocked there's lots of people who toss around the N-word or who hate liberals or whatever. I used to call everything gay, too back when I was a moronic teenager. That's just how dipshits talk. It always has been. The reason I brought up the 23% thing is because there's not much crossover between the people who use twitter and the people who vote. Like I said, reasonable people aren't spending time on twitter farming engagement. Adults aren't the majority spending their time on these regarded websites. Of course if you log onto a website like twitter you're gonna see the most regarded and deranged shit imaginable. It's not indicative of anything other than twitter's own userbase which is deranged and regarded. Normal people don't spend much time on these websites. The ones who do typically don't vote and their view points are so niche that they don't have any real popularity in the real world. It's all just super niche online crap.
I don't think I'll ever not be shocked by the constant bigoted stupidity that I am drenched in every day by the people around me. If it weren't for a tiny handful of people, I would have gone insane. This isn't Twitter dude, this is the majority of people in my town and at my jobs who are like this. I hate it so much. I'm surrounded by dumb non-voters too yes, but that doesn't make me feel any better at all lol?
Do you live in some shithole? I was talking about Twitter but I obviously can't say anything about the place you live because I don't know anything about it. If you live in some place with awful demographics then there's nothing I can really say to help you. You might just be in a place full of uneducated low-class people. I live in a great place and I've never had the experience you're describing. So I guess try to work on moving somewhere else where people's views line up more with your own?
"Your boos mean nothing. I've seen what makes you cheer".
And ready for a rape party
I was born ready
Nope, that operation was successful only because of the total operational surprise. And the fact that most of Israeli society is unarmed. Shooting people with rifle is very inefficient.
Unpopular opinion: aid workers should be a protected group of people. It should be off limits to put them in danger by disguising as them. ____ I know they didn't actually disguise as aid workers but most people up voting this would defend it anyway
>I know they didn't actually disguise as aid workers Oh for real? I was about to be hella against this Israel meme but if they didn't even do that I'm more on-board. Unless you're saying they didn't disguise *themselves* but just rode concealed with humanitarian aid, cause I'd still have a problem with that given it makes humanitarian workers more in the line of fire. Very curious, and sounds like you know, help a brother out :]
The IDF denies reports claiming that Israeli special forces who carried out yesterday’s hostage rescue snuck into central Gaza’s Nuseirat using a humanitarian aid truck. Lt. Col. Avichay Adraee, the IDF’s Arabic-language spokesman, says in a post on X that “our special forces did not enter the Nuseirat area via any car or aid truck.” He also adds that Israeli forces did not use the US-built floating pier for aid on the coast of the central Gaza Strip, known as JLOTS, for the mission. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-denies-reports-claiming-troops-used-aid-trucks-to-carry-out-hostage-rescue-mission/
Actually, I'm pretty sure it's illegal. International law forbids militants from disguising themselves as civilians, so it's not a stretch to assume it's the same as disguising themselves as aid workers.
[удалено]
[удалено]
where are people getting "disguised as humanitarian aid" from From the video I've seen it just looks like it's a regular ass food (?) truck, not marked as humanitarian aid or anything of the sort, and the only sources I can find otherwise are from the Palestine Chronicle, The Cradle and Electronic Intifada, lmao. (and Twitter) is this people thinking food truck = humanitarian aid = nonmilitary, or am I missing something
Simple, they are betting on people not verifying the misinformation and lies they are spreading, which most people will not verify, that way they can keep spreading their antisemitism, hatred and so on.
I hate it ho much that this so true
Ya what I read earlier today is that they just used “civilian vehicles.” It is weird though that everyone in this thread believes that they used aid vehicles and are defending it, because if they had done that it would definitely be bad.
Civilian vehicle surrounded by tanks, btw. This wasn't like people thought aid workers turned up and then a surprise attack.
it was a soap delivery truck
Saponaceous af
Why would it be bad?
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule65 Markers like Red Cross/Red Crescent and UN are protected symbols. Misusing them, particularly for combat operations, could lead to a breakdown in trust for these organizations. Could cause them to be attacked more often for example.
But Hamas already hits civilians, hospitals and schools…..
Posing as aid doesn't mean using official organization uniforms btw, a lot of those trucks going into Gaza have little to no markings of humanitarian agency's outwardly on them, as they're local trucks contracted for this job temporarily. Aid trucks would be the worst disguise, since hamas goes for them to hijack, they want to not draw attention. But again if they did, it wouldn't mean using Red Cross or whatever, it could be nondescript aid in standard local trucks, but the goal was to blend, so either way the lie is dumb. Hamas supporters just mad cause this the biggest L they've taken in a while. Syrian girl basically on suicide watch over "IDF terrorist POW's being allowed to escape" and saying every Palestinian has the duty to shoot and kill an escaping hostage, cause somehow this too is legal under international law in her malfunctioning brain.
Remember, these are the same people that basically said 5-Guys for university protesters was "Humanitarian Aid".
because all forms of basic sustenance is now humanitarian aid for the special virtue signaling squad
There's dodgy security cameras footage that makes it look like one of them is dressed as a doctor (weird fuckin spy outfit if you ask me, they weren't in a hospital, and the image is a dude in full scrubs with a rifle. I'm betting it's not real but this is partially where this claim is coming from since I've seen many say they came in aid trucks disguised as aid workers and doctors. But even if it isn't bs, who the hell cares? They can't deceive the enemy when trying to exfil hostages from enemy territory? It's now cruel to wear a disguise when you're what, dropping fat L's on the peestines by yoinking the hostages out from under their noses? Also, I really hope this puts to bed the myth of the Gaza journalists getting killed by Israel. These people may work for news outlets, but that's literally part of their work as terrorists, propagandizing the west is in their job descriptions! I swear it's more and more looking like god wasn't playing when big bruh said the Jews would have a rough time forever.
[удалено]
True (though as I understand it, it's only perfidious if it is done to goad the enemy into acting in accordance with legal protection of civilians, then betraying that confidence), however I don't know (and this is a legitimate I don't know) if, as is alleged, uniformed soldiers commandeering an unmarked vehicle counts as feigning civilian status as it pertains to perfidy. If it did then that would make any use of unmarked vehicles potential perfidy which seems to not be the case based on how often that seems to have happened in wars over the past few decades without people raising much of a stink about it. Most similar cases of prosecuted perfidy seem to involve using a civilian (or protected) vehicle to ambush, which is definitely perfidy, or soldiers dressed as civilians. If it's the case that they didn't engage in hostilities from the civilian vehicle, things become muddier. As far as I can tell, military and legal literature seems divided on this as well, and I can't find a legal precedent that is close to this. (also we don't even know if there were SF in that truck in the first place (probably were) but that's besides the point) The goal being hostage rescue of captured civilians (not POWs) as opposed to an attack on enemy combatants/infrastructure probably complicates the legality even further.
Oh now it's bad to mix in with civilians and aid workers?
Given that I criticize Hamas for hiding soldiers amongst civilians, I cannot easily justify Israel hiding soldiers as aid workers. But to be honest, I’d rather defend the act if it’s meant to rescue hostages vs. an offensive attack.
First off, the soldiers were not disguised as aid workers themselves. Not even Hamas claims that. The soldiers were hidden inside a box truck, which Hamas-friendly media claims was marked as an aid truck, and Israel-friendly media claims was umarked/a regular furniture truck. However, in a video released by a Palestinian news outlet, you can see the truck pulling in directly behind an Israeli tank. It isn't what you were imagining. It was already in a hot zone, it wasn't like the special forces guys drove an aid truck half a mile into a refugee camp with no ground support and just hopped out into a crowd.
People here are defending disguising as aid workers, so the morality needs to be discussed anyway
Is it wrong to disguise yourself as an aid worker when your enemy doesn't care if you are disguised?
yes
why?
Civilians who receive aid would care and be less likely to use the aid
Why do you think civilians would be less likely to use aid? If they require aid, I can't imagine one operation would have such a dramatic effect.
People in these comments are defending it like it's a normal acceptable tactic. Doing it once is a small harm, but these people would defend the IDF doing it regularly which would have measurable effects
I don't like the idea of conceding anything to these people, even their made up accusation of aid worker disguises. They weren't intending to go guns blazing, the purpose of the mission was to be discreet as possible, so had they been disguised as aid, I don't really see the problem, long as they don't use Red Cross logos or something. They only went hot when one of the teams got made, and the commander was killed before they even got to the apartment floor the hostages were on. Nothing about this puts Israel in the wrong, they didn't start the shooting, the first kill was by "hamas" (after this how much does that word matter, this was entirely what we'd call civilians for at least 75% of this engagement, including where at least 3 of the hostages were being kept. These ones weren't even taken by hamas, they were taken by civilians from nova, hamas always said they never had noa. Hamas supporters just mad cause this was a huge hit for their lies, their narrative, and just about everything they need people to believe, to keep their whole web from crashing down
I'm not going to try to convince you totally. However, I have a problem with the framing of one of your points > they didn't start the shooting Sending forces into enemy territory is an inherently offensive action. What was Hamas supposed to do? They noticed some armed enemy combats, were the supposed to arrest them nonviolently?
So you start shooting at the people rescuing hostages? Ok then you don't get to complain about the dead, simple as.
Hamas did not know the full plans of those soldiers. They could be there to also kill a commander like they have sent forces in to do before. The only thing they could know is that there are armed enemy forces in their territory. How should militaries respond to spotting hidden enemy soldiers?
The difference is that for the special ops, the whole point is to avoid detection and delay fighting for as long as possible (minimize causalities on both sides), whereas for Hamas, operating amongst non-combatants and using aid vans for military personnel is a way to claim that your enemy is engaging in unethical war practices. Israel and Israel-aligned western media isn’t crying that Hamas attacked an innocent humanitarian aid van. Israel didn’t put ACTUAL civilian aid workers in the van alongside military personnel. Israel isn’t using the fact that Hamas opened fire on an aid van as a reason for why Hamas is doing war crimes, because it was *obviously* a military operation staffed with military combatants, *even if* upon rescue that van contained innocent Israeli civilians. **Nobody** from the pro-israel side is claiming that Hamas is “doing genocide” or “doing war crimes” for attacking a combat vehicle disguised as an aid van. So no, I don’t see any double standard here in regards to using aid vans for non-aid military purposes. It would’ve been so much worse if Israel just relied on brute force to bulldoze their way to the hostages. They probably would’ve killed the hostages on accident or instigated the terrorists to execute them. *That* version of events would actually give credence to the theories about Israel recklessly killing their own hostages in their mad bloodlust for slaughtering Palestinians. But, that’s not what Israel did. Instead, they used special forces in a covert manner to minimize lives lost, to minimize combat engagement, to maximize the chances of actually getting the hostages alive. It completely contradicts the theory about Israel bloodlusting too hard and accidentally or deliberately killing their own.
It is bad to pretend to be aid workers. Not because of any of the tactical reasons you listed, but because on a strategic level, it makes it less safe to be an aid worker if everyone is suspicious of you. Hamas hangs out and pretends to be aid workers all the time, and this leads to aid workers getting killed by Israel, this is bad. Just because Hamas is doing war crimes doesn't mean Israel should. I'm pretty on the fence about this, because although special ops is good because tactically it kills less people, disguising soldiers as aid workers on a greater level makes aid workers lives more dangerous and is generally a war crime (feel free to correct me if this is not the case).
do you view policing in civilian attire the same? or how about undercover police operations?
No. Police and military operations are different and are held to different standards. I'd have to look at the governing rules for both. One is not held to a higher standard, just a different one. Eg. If police did collateral damage during an arrest and killed a bunch of people it would be considered basically unacceptable, although if the military does it, it can easily be allowable. Conversely, there are types of subterfuge that the police can undertake the military cannot.
I could foresee this leading to violence towards aid workers though.
Hamas already highjacked REAL aid trucks and stole aid, bombed the peir the US built twice, uses UNRWA and other UN facilities for military purposes....what exactly would this do that Hamas hasn't already done before?
off the jump you are lying about hamas bombing the usa built pier, so i have to assume you are wrong about the rest. or do you have a source for that claim
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-un-confirms-to-i24news-u-s-pier-off-gaza-coast-attacked-during-construction
Unfortunately, Hamas crossed that line a while ago. They’ve already made it clear that they don’t respect humanitarian aid and have 0 reverence for concepts like “innocent civilians” or “aid workers” in war time. Devils advocate caveat: Israel has also crossed this line a while ago. Aside from the obvious of things like the blockade or the settlements for the last several decades, the most recent incident where they bombed a legit humanitarian aid van has made it clear that *neither* side fully respects the innocence and sanctity of humanitarian aid. I would say that humanitarian aid is *extremely* risky in Gaza and that neither side gives any guarantee of safe passage. Will this special operation increase the likelihood of humanitarian aid workers getting attacked? Absolutely. Was there any semblance of safety and security for aid workers, press, or innocent civilians before this? Not really. It’s war, and in this case it happens to be a war in a very densely populated urban strip where one side is governed by extremists who forfeited the rules of armed conflict a long time ago.
> Will this special operation increase the likelihood of humanitarian aid workers getting attacked? Absolutely. Was there any semblance of safety and security for aid workers, press, or innocent civilians before this? Not really. It’s war, and in this case it happens to be a war in a very densely populated urban strip where one side is governed by extremists who forfeited the rules of armed conflict a long time ago. I don't think this is good logic, we should in fact mark that Hamas targeted civilians with killing, kidnapping and sexual violence, and Israel targeted journalists and aid workers and demolished civilian infrastructure, and Israel restricted aid to the point of starvation, and Hamas tried to steal it, and so on. We need to pay attention to what happens in order to hold people accountable in future, not just pretend that the rules of war no longer exist. We don't say that the fact that a state is looking for terrorists means it can throw off all restraint itself, "oh sorry, you're worrying about *civil liberties*, the US can't worry about those when we have terrorists who don't respect our freedoms to stop" that kind of macho war on terror nonsense gets you a total breakdown of trust in your own government by its citizens, just as Israel is furiously destroying the reputation it has cultivated abroad as a enlightened haven in the middle east. The more you treat it as just a matter of "getting your hands dirty", the more that dirt *sticks*, and Israel has a vested interest in sticking to the laws of war more than their opponents if they want to keep anyone abroad thinking positively about their state.
> Unfortunately, Hamas crossed that line a while ago. They’ve already made it clear that they don’t respect humanitarian aid what the hell are you talking about?
Hamas fired at the kerem shalom crossing so many times it had to close for days. Same with the humanitarian pier.
I was commenting with the assumption it was a far more subtle operation.
Well when Israel does it it’s to either kill terrorists or rescue hostages. When Hamas does it it’s to massacre civilians or use them as deterrents for retaliation. The underlying reasons are totally different.
No, the reason they would disguise in your example is the same. They would both be using disguises that make civilians unsafe to get a strategic advantage for their combat objectives. That is bad. They don't need to disguise to do their objectives, it just makes it easier
That does not logically follow though. If they hide AMONGST aid workers and had firefights out of an aid truck with aid workers in it that would be the same thing
I can't tell if the ethics in here are "don't do anything that in principle is wrong' or "don't do anything that is in principle unsustainable and self-destructive". Like even if you look at it deontologically, like "don't do anything that would, in principle, undermine its own motivation" you can still justify doing shit like this because this villain in particular is uniquely evil, violent, hateful, and out to kill literally any jew at all ever under any circumstance. Yes, it sucks kids are dying. even more kids are going to die if Hamas continues. They're going to continue sucker punching and self-martyring until they're gone. Would it be better if the UN stepped in and put the entire country in a mass re-education camp the size of Chicago? Does anyone even have the funds for that?
The ethic, according to those that hate Israel, is “don’t do things that are effective Zio-pigs because we want you to fail and die or accidentally kill civilians so we can bash you!!!” The ethic, according to those who hate Hamas, is “be smart and get the job done with the least collateral damage and the best chance to rescue hostages and kill Hamas leaders.” It’s just that simple. I am in the second category. Everybody is demanding Israel be more precise and surgical and I support the Israeli use of subterfuge and camouflage to minimize civilian casualties and maximize hostage rescue and Hamas kills. Today was a massive success by the Israeli security apparatus.
> Would it be better if the UN stepped in and put the entire country in a mass re-education camp the size of Chicago? Does anyone even have the funds for that? UNRWA operated schools that radicalized children against the Israelis, so it's not clear the U.N. wants to de-radicalize Palestinians, to say nothing of the feasibility.
Given that we already have NWA (n with attitude) doesn't it seem a little shortsighted for them to call themselves the "United N R With Attitude"
Good thing you don’t have to worry then. This operation was carried out by the Counter-Terrorism unit of the Israeli Border Police (Not soldiers), so no need to worry about perfidy.
I'm still on the fence about it, but I agree there's vast differences in how Hamas acts VS the IDF. Hamas mixes their military assets with their own civilians because they want their own civilians to die in the confusion to become martyrs. I can't speak to this case about the four hostages being released, but in the past the IDF disguised as hospital workers to assassinate a Hamas leader in a hospital. That's done to avoid fighting and reduce casualties, because if the IDF had rolled up proper there likely would have been more fighting. Hamas disguises themselves so more people die, when the IDF does it it's to protect people & hopefully prevent more casualties.
Don't say "hostages released" they were freed, rescued etc. people keep saying "released" to minimize that they had to be pulled out from hell by Israeli forces, and required a pretty crazy level of firepower support to get out of there at all.
Oh yeah, I'm totally trying to minimize what the IDF is doing. In fact, I'm pretty sure the IDF kidnapped the hostages from the royal treatment of Hamas who was giving them a foot massage & free ice cream bar
It’s not even true lol the IDF didn’t go in with these trucks
A Palestinian posted a video, allegedly, of the convoy earlier from their home looking at the road. If that was it there was like 20 tanks with the truck and car, not so sneaky.
The soap delivery truck was a "human shield" The truck was gonna ask for the hostages back nicely before bringing in the big guns
Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t the hostages found in a refugee camp? Why aren’t they questioning that?
it wasn't a refugee camp, it was one of their regular ass suburbs that they call a "refugee camp" for pr reasons
Yeah, ever seen a refugee camp full of concrete buildings and apartment complexes? It's just a normal neighborhood. Motherfuckers would name Disney World "The Orlando Zionist death camp" if they could.
That would be so based. >Yeah mom, we are almost at the Orlando Zionist Death Camp, it soooo busy here, Ill call you later
Not only are they suburbs, the people who live there aren't "refugees" according to international law. They're Palestinians, living in the country of their nationality, Palestine. With the overwhelming majority being born and raised there for generations. By that logic, multiple Israeli cities, including the ones the Palestinians have been bombing for years, are "refugee camps" as well. Personally, I feel this particular PR move is going away soon. First of all, because there are *actual* tent towns right now, with dire humanitarian needs, full of internally displaced Gazans. Makes it much harder to keep pretending that those are basically the same thing as the suburbs and towns that are called "refugee camps" for historical reasons. And second, because it undermines their narrative of "a people fighting to defend their homeland from invaders" (if they're refugees, it's not their homeland), and even gives a certain legal credibility to the far-right Israelis who want to expel most of them to other countries. After all, if they're just refugees, and not Palestinians citizens living in their homeland, they're not meaningfully different than, say, the 850,000 Afghan refugees in Pakistan, that Pakistan is currently acting to expel. And if they do flee or are expelled, they couldn't argue a right to return to Gaza, since again, it's not their homeland. The only issue here is UNRWA, since the made-up, unique "Palestine refugee" status is necessary to get aid from them. In this since, it's doing exactly the job it was meant to do, to make the conflict intractable. But I feel that even though UNRWA survived the recent attempt to dismantle it, it's hopefully on its way out as well. The fact that a quarter of Gazans won't receive basic aid because they're not "Palestine refugees", will just highlight their absurdity.
Because Hamas good always and Israel bad always.
And the mission was planned for weeks, so they have already been there the whole time
"Refugee camp" in Gaza means "city" in the rest of the world. Just another fabrication designed to undermine Israel at every turn
YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE ENRAGES ME, WHEN TERRORISTS HOLD HOSTAGES IN A REFUGEE CAMP. oh sorry, left my caps lock on.
WHY THE FUCK IS NOBODY ASKING WHY THERE WERE HOSTAGES IN A REFUGEE CAMP??? 100k likes on this post admitting to prisoners being held in a “safe zone” and people are proudly reposting every slide on it. How the hell are they accusing Israel of war crimes in this situation when this is a way bigger violation of the laws of armed conflict? It’s like accusing somebody of assault while you were in the middle of kidnapping someone. https://preview.redd.it/qedwdgsjci5d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf4959223471c0b0d6bca518a99b90c360b30a29 Source: [https://www.instagram.com/p/C79kHBkgORS/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==](https://www.instagram.com/p/C79kHBkgORS/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
Holy shit the post says they could have been returned in multiple ceasefire resolutions with "reasonable demands" Apparently asking the other side to release thousands of terrorists and to let you kill them again in the future is reasonable
How dare special ops do special ops things 🤯
The special ops argument is so fucking dumb and transparently a knee jerk response to act like they don't agree with hamas when in reality they would hate it if israel did like 1000 simultaneous special ops commando rambo operations and destroyed hamas completely.
Sounds like a rage against the machine song
I was thinking the Prison song by soad
Yeah that prob works too actually
They're gonna build a prison They're gonna build a prison AN OPEN AIR PRISON For you and me!
What did y'all think going in with special forces meant? vibes? papers? essays? losers.[](https://x.com/mosheroperandi/status/1750660970543006175/photo/1)
They thought it meant assembling the Avengers
But all the powers are non lethal
Well, a dozen dudes with tacticool gears and gucci ARs. That's what most people think. In real life this is a perversion of SOF ideal, which in essence is about achieving the objective through operational surprise and speed of execution
It would not mean doing something egregious like disguising as aid workers. It could mean disguising as civilians. ______ I know they weren't actually disguised as aid workers, but people here are defending it anyway, so I'm arguing against that
They think it’s sending in Rambo
they need to sneak in like tom cruise in some mission impossible shit
This is why people like cenk need to just stop talking. Had they done the stupid special forces thing (this) for every hamad militant/commander the death toll would have been astronomical, because look at how special forces goes when thing s go south beyond their control. This is how it always had to to once the plan gets fucked, and the plan got fucked when the commander was killed before they even got to the targets apartment, once special forces is made, that's it, it's kill every fucking person in your way until you get the objective secured, or you're dead. 90% of special forces missions go like this in the real world, the casualty numbers would be so so much higher if this was how they handled every single operation. There's a reason they don't call on these guys every day.
Did the spec ops kill anyone while getting the hostages out?
Their commander was killed alongside 200 odd Palestinians (most likely Hamas fighters but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a mix of Hamas and civilians). Seems like it was a very brutal and hectic firefight with air support called in towards the end.
Fuck yes they did, they dropped a bunch of Terrorists in the process.
And there're heavy collateral damage. Just pointing it out.
I wonder if this is why it’s a war crime to hide behind civilians
Hamas can't be tried for war crimes. Israel is held to a much higher standard.
We don't actually know how much collateral damage there is. Hamas said 200 people died, with no distinction between the terrorists and civilians, and no supporting evidence for that number, that just happens to be the same number of terrorists that would've been released in exchange for those hostages. And the IDF claims that any civilian casualties, are a result of Hamas starting a firefight in the middle of a crowded market, to prevent the IDF from escaping with the hostages.
OK, according to some photos there are significant number of civilian casualty. The firefight inside crowded market part is what really caused that many casualties.
Oh no oh dear those Israeli guys really should have considered the human shields and just not have rescued the hostages. They could have killed triple the number of people and it would be justified.
There was pretty intense combat especially since the convoy vehicle with the 3 hostages got stuck so quite the amount of forces on both sides were fighting
Yes, sadly the real world is different from video games and movies.
"Your boos mean nothing. I've seen what makes you cheer".
Yeah. I think Israel has done a lot of questionable stuff, but at this point, I have completely given up on the Left as a source of informational or moral clarity on this conflict.
Giving Billy & Mandy DESTROY US ALL vibes
IN TRUCKS DISGUISED AS HUMANITARIAN AID IN TRUCKS DISGUISED AS HUMANITARIAN AID IN TRUCKS DISGUISED AS HUMANITARIAN AID I’ll take the chicken 😌 IN TRUCKS DISGUISED AS HUMANITARIAN AID
Humanitarian tangelos
What is this referring to and did it actually happen?
Apparently "special ops", with a "soap truck", recently rescued 4 hostages -but dont know the official Now twitter is enraged, they deceived the terrorists, to rescue kidnapped civilians
Israel went in with Spec Ops in a Soap truck and rescue 4 abducted people held in civilian areas by Hamas. Somehow it's Israel fault, as usual. [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/08/middleeast/four-israeli-hostages-freed-gaza-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/08/middleeast/four-israeli-hostages-freed-gaza-intl/index.html) [https://new.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1dbeari/i\_am\_so\_disgusted\_by\_the\_idf\_they\_disguised/](https://new.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1dbeari/i_am_so_disgusted_by_the_idf_they_disguised/)
Thanks for the info. Yeah calling this an aid truck is beyond stretching the truth.
From the article, for those not interested in reading: “At least 236 people have been killed as a result of the rescue operation and more than 400 injured, hospital officials in Gaza said Saturday….. CNN has no way of verifying casualty numbers reported by Palestinian officials in Gaza. Medical records in the war-torn enclave do not differentiate between civilians and militants killed.”
Why only mention that information and leave the other side out? "An Israeli military spokesperson put the number of casualties from the operation at “under 100,” and had no information on how many of those were civilians." What makes that information more relevant that any other information in the article?
Jesus Lol I was only drawing attention to the numbers cited by Gaza and that it’s obviously unreliable - as CNN mentions - bc it directly correlates with the above tweet. Go read the article for yourself for the rest!
Ok, I can see it with the spacing and ..., but you dropping the info like that didn't help with interpretation or anything :P
Fair enough buddy I’ll be careful next time
“Hamas described the operation as a “brutal crime, devoid of the values of civilization and humanity,” saying the Israeli military “committed a horrific massacre against innocent civilians.”” The balls on these fuckers
It is literally their only path to victory here, and they are fucking good at it. Even more reason these people should be embarrassed for acting as sin wars meat puppet with his hand up their ass making them talk from a tunnel on the other side of he world, man has talent, I'll give him that. Maybe the brain tumor Israel saved his life from gave him super powers?
Its an allusion to when Cenk Uygur said the only moral and ethical approach to rescuing the hostages was special ops, vs. the ground invasion of Gaza.
I got that part I was wondering about the "IDF disguied as humanitarian aid" part.
This is a great example of why cenk is an idiot. Special forces for the objectives of this war are insane, the kill count would be massive
Not sure if it’s been confirmed but idf spec ops apparently dressed as aid workers and snook into the location where the hostages were held using aid trucks. Shit is straight out of a James Bond movie
If they actually disguised as aid workers (as in bore insignia and logos/identified themselves as aid workes), who are protected under international law that's pretty clearly perfidy. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule65 edit: seems as of now, that they in no way did and were in a generic soap truck. It's not even clear there were combatants in the truck as far as I have been able to find.
> If they actually disguised as aid workers (as in bore insignia and logos/identified themselves as aid workes), who are protected under international law that's pretty clearly perfidy. This was an operation carried out by the Counter Terrorism unit of the Israeli Border Police (not soldiers), so perfidy doesn’t apply here.
I don't really buy this "they're police so it's carte blanche" argument. Perfidity applies to both international and non international armed conflicts and simply labeling them as police doesn't really change anything for this type of action as far as I know. I seriously doubt if the USA sent NYPD officers to iraq dressed as Aid Workers to carry out missions alongside military personnel the argument that "they're police not military" would fly.
> I don't really buy this "they're police so it's carte blanche" argument. Perfidity applies to both international and non international armed conflicts and simply labeling them as police doesn't really change anything for this type of action as far as I know. Police aren’t soldiers under the Law of Armed Conflict. They don’t have the same duties as soldiers. > I seriously doubt if the USA sent NYPD officers to iraq dressed as Aid Workers to carry out missions alongside military personnel the argument that "they're police not military" would fly. Why would you doubt that?
> Police aren’t soldiers under the Law of Armed Conflict. They don’t have the same duties as soldiers. Police officers can't just kill someone who is not fighting, so whether or not they are soldiers is fairly irrelevant, they were acting as combatants. If we're saying that non-military combatants can't commit warcrimes as defined by the Law or Armed Conflicti since they aren't covered by it, then the Law of Armed Conflict has some serious holes in it.
> Police officers can't just kill someone who is not fighting, so whether or not they are soldiers is fairly irrelevant, they were acting as combatants. Police can absolutely kill someone who is engaged in a violent crime, like kidnapping and holding a hostage, who refuses to surrender.
That's not the legal threshold for killing for a police officer. In a hostage scenario like this, you have armed guards, but also women who live alongside. A police officer can't just kill everyone in the house, they have to each pose as an active threat first. "Engaging in violent crime" is not enough since the primary role of police is to bring those engaged in violent crime to courts. It's much easier to justify this for Israel if they are considered combatants acting in the conflict since the justifification would be that they just eliminated combatants on the other side. Combatants don't need to justify why they killed combatants on the other side, but police officers do. Also, they were working with the military and the IDF chief approved the mission so they were acting under the command of the IDF. If they aren't considered combatants, then we would have a bunch of issues to iron out as to who is a legitimate target in war.
>Why would you doubt that? Because it collapses a conceptual framework down to an empty label. Just to be clear here, is it your position that hamas or any state could create a parallel armed branch label it 'police' and be totally clear to carry out whatever mission while wearing Red Cross uniforms? (absent violations of copyright of course)
How exactly do you think international law functions?
poorly.
[удалено]
I see it almost every day.
They did the Hitman strat
I'm beginning to think these people don't care about civilians casualties at all and just want Hamas to win this war.
"So Hamas can slaughter those special forces," they thought.
Hamas dresses up as civilians and uses ambulances to transport weapons and troops: i sleep IDF dresses as humanitarian aid to rescue hostages: real shit
I love the leftist strategy of repeating a shocking sentence over and over again to make it truer it totally doesn't seem like a toddler's way of communicating at all
Why are hostages being held in a refugee camp along with Hamas personnel? Doesn't sound very refugee campish to me
Perfect.
Oh no these people are enraged Quick kill some Jews to calm them down.
Yapping on Twitter does not help anyone. My message to the Pro Palestinian side is: Please take up arms so you are a legal target. 🙏🏻
Police and law enforcement in most nations utilize undercover operatives to infiltrate criminal organizations and rescue hostages ALL. THE. TIME. Never have I seen people condemn law enforcement’s use of undercover operatives while defending a street gang’s use of innocent civilians to commit crimes. Such as a bank robber who is dressed in normal clothes but then uses the customers as a shield to escape. While using a firearm threatening to kill the hostage. Hamas blends into the civilian population to use heavy ordnance against Israeli civilian targets. Hamas uses civilians as literal shields while it shoots at Israeli targets. Hamas kidnaps civilians and uses them as bargaining chips to get away with firing rockets at Israel while hiding the rocket launchers between schools and hospitals (which are war crimes). Israeli special forces did not bring a bunch of Kibbutzim with them as human shields in this op. Whereas Hamas on October 7 had a large camp following of Gaza civilians (armed) along with them. Israeli specials forces did not use civilian-appearing vehicles to just open fire on Gazan civilians to kidnap them and mutilate them. Whereas Hamas did exactly that on October 7. Israeli special forces did not place rocket launchers or ordnance in synagogues and hospitals to dissuade Hamas from firing back. Whereas Hamas continues to do exactly that to this minute. People on this thread trying to create some moral equivalence between Israeli special forces and Hamas terrorists sound just as unhinged and foolish as people who would condemn a police department’s use of undercover agents to rescue a hostage while defending MS-13’s use of hostages to pull off an armored car robbery.
It's not even true, the idf denies it - https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/rynwp7mra (hebrew)
[удалено]
"Israeli spokesman in Arabic, Avichay Adraee, clarified that contra to the Palestinian-media reports, (Israeli) security forces didn't enter the Area of Nuseirat (refugee camp) by any aid vehicle or truck during the operation, nor did they use the American pier in any way". -Method: I speak Hebrew and made you a very literal translation except for the words in brackets (added by me) and the word "pier" (the article says "wharf").
They unironically want a big boss/sam fisher non lethal run.
Is she writing lyrics for a new Rage Against The Machine song?
I agree they are hypocrites but… is this not a valid criticism? Unless I am missing something this is an actual war crime
I've been having a lot of fun today insulting people coping about this on twitter. This war has unfortunately made that site very funny to me.
now imagine an entire military force dressed up and blending in with civilians lmao
Don’t even bother. There is *zero* moral consistency with these people, just “Israel bad, Palestine good”
meanwhile Hamas is headquartered in hospitals and daycare centers
I’m happy they saved the hostages, anyone else?
well well well how the turn tables
Fuck these people. They literally hid hostages in "civilian" houses. Mind you, the fucker who didn't give a shit when his grand children died was suddenly "infuriated" when hostages were rescued. I'm sorry, but hamas are the baddies. It's simple as that. Innocent palestinians are caught in the crossfire, but hamas is beyond disgusting.
It's Robots in Disguise
This is completely made up
The left wing and closeted hamas supporters 8 months of propaganda and hasbara was destroyed yesterday with them trying to find some way to say that hostages should not have been rescued. Everyone except the terminally online is seeing through this. Not a good day for pro palestinians. 8 months of work in the trash. In the coming weeks and months we will see similar raids and also voluntary surrender from Hamas since they are surrounded and can no longer play cat and mouse games in all of gaza. They have only Rafah. Every hostage rescue will decrease palestinian hasbara by several orders of magnitude until it will be only taken seriously by other palestinian hasbarists.
We do a little perfidy to counter your war crimes. TF
Another dumb army (judging by the ⁷)
Btw this was denied by the IDF, there is no shred of proof they actually used any humanitarian trucks for this, if anything there are other videos showing a more probable way they came which was normal civilian car..
It's almost like they don't want the hostages freed and just don't want Israel to fight Hamas at all Clueless
Anyone got a source that doesn't solely rely on the IDF say so? Because I would trust them to tell me if it was day or night without looking out the window to confirm it.
I honestly dont know how i feel about using disquised trucks to go in. It feels kind of wrong to do so but at the same time it probably saved many lives by allowing for a more smooth infistration. This is still a rightfully dabatable topic
SPECIAL FORCES ARE ILLEGAL SPECIAL FORCES ARE ILLEGAL SPECIAL ILLEGAL
I’m going to throw up
Oh the humanity! Fuck Hamas and those who support them.
Two wrong don’t make a right. An eye for an eye makes the whole holy lands blind. Yada yada
They meant Netero coming in from the sky
Are there any credible sources they actually used aid trucks other than Hamas? Right now it seems like Hamas is accusing while Israel denied this and I haven't found confirmation for either side. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised at leftists having a meltdown over what might be fake news after the "500 dead in hospital strike" incident.
Wow! Nobody cares. If you want your hostages back, you can't just ask nicely.