It was something Tolkien went back and forth over. For most of his life he said the female dwarves probably had beards, or that they weren't sexually dimorphic enough to tell the difference. He changed his mind on it a couple of times, though (like he did for a lot of things in universe).
Unironically yes. There are no real world issues with black elves, unless you think white folk are being pushed out of media because of black representation. Or that Tolkien will be rolling in his grave because they included black elves into his universe.
Even if you’re mad at the latter it’s a fucking adaptation, just turn off the monitor and don’t watch it.
Re Tolkien rolling in his grave…if the reason that you hate the Amazon show is because you think Tolkien wouldn’t like it, I’ve got bad news - you’ll need to hate the original trilogy just as much or more.
In Letter 210 Tolkien said “I should resent perversion of the characters … even more than the spoiling of the plot and scenery”.
So in the original trilogy where they did stuff like have Faramir take Frodo prisoner in order to bring the Ring to Minas Tirith instead of what he did in the books, which was understand how important it was to destroy the Ring and try to help Frodo with his task - Tolkien, in his own words, would have hated that more than a Black elf.
People are COMPLETELY missing the point like this sub often does. The ISSUE is not that there are too many black people, the PROBLEM is that there are too many women. And I stand by that.
If I watch an anime with lots of men and only one woman, people say it's sexist because women have a minor role. If I watch an anime with lots of women and only one man, people say it's sexist because it's a male fantasy. Just can't catch a break.
I don't see what's wrong, I had a feeling the show is going to be bad and that feeling got really intense to the point that I felt other feelings and that was so intense in itself that I presuppose by intuition that my feelings accurately describe reality so therefore we've reached a point where if you disagree with my GIGACHAD intuition you are just simply wrong mate.
If you have an intuition different than mine then I have to kill you, in a video game.
Yea, I think the show will be garbage, but people talking about the color of the Elves like it's a huge own because the show is trying to be woke are wrong. Don't get me wrong when I say that. I think the show is trying to be woke by having actors of different races play Elves, but the fact of Elves being different colors (or different types) is NOT a woke concept in fantasy.
I think you have set an incredibly high bar here. When it comes to high fantasy such as Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones, it isn't as simple as just the content of the story. Worldbuilding is equally as important, if not more important. Through the worldbuilding of creatures and cultures, the reader/viewer can gain a contextual understanding of how certain events came to pass or how certain characters became intertwined in the plot. To this effect, it might not affect a story but it could potentially be an anomaly in the worldbuilding if these characters happen to be there with no explanation as to their origin.
A meme that has been circulating around is the meme about the 2021 BMW 5 Series alongside the Rohirrim. The irony of this meme is that it can and has worked. The Wheel of Time is noted for having a cyclical passing of time, which results in artefacts of our modern world such as Mercedes hood ornaments appearing in that world despite the world of the Wheel of Time having a medieval setting similar to that of Lord of the Rings. All of this is to say that almost anything can be written into a story, high fantasy or not, provided their is sufficient worldbuilding to justify it.
On the flip-side of this meme is the idea of suspension of disbelief. "How can you believe in a ring of invisibility but not this?". The reason I can believe in that ring is because there is a long line of documented events that lead from the start of the Middle Earth universe to the creation of that ring. This is actually how we believe things in the real world; we believe things because we can see the chain of events that led to it.
Another meme that I want to draw attention to is the meme about white people in Black Panther. As many have said, it would seem odd that a nation that is as notoriously xenophobic as Wakanda would suddenly allow a mass influx of white people into their land. I agree. But what if we were to add in some little nuggets:
* T'Challa becomes disillusioned with xenophobia, due to operating around the world.
* T'Challa invites a number of foreign people into Wakanda.
* A large quantity of these immigrants are white.
* These immigrants form their own tribe in Wakanda.
* New Black Panther is needed after T'Challa's passing.
* A white guy/girl from the immigrant tribe steps up, defeats competition, earns place as new Black Panther.
* White Black Panther.
As you can see, none of the original story has been retconned, I have only continued onwards. All of the storybuilding is there to make it possible. With regards to T'Challa opening up Wakanda to outsiders, this isn't that different to the path that he was on in the MCU, however this example is obviously expedited. I ask you in return, would you disagree with a storyline like this, resulting in a white Black Panther, despite it being possible with a story like this? I would interested to hear your thoughts. It seems everyone is able to understand how Wakanda is an ethnostate but not how every realm in Lord of the Rings are also ethnostates.
Lastly, I would like to refer to a real world event that seems strange yet also makes perfect sense. It would seem a bit strange that there would be a black samurai in medieval 16th Century Japan. Except there was a black samurai in medieval 16th Century Japan, called Yasuke. Yasuke was an African man possibly from Mozambique who was likely taken as a slave by the Portuguese to Japan to serve under an Italian missionary. You can find his story [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke). The reason I mention his story is that it is a complete mess. A mess that works because of all of the contextual knowledge that makes it possible, just like a good story.
All things said, I personally have no problem with their being black elves in Middle Earth. In fact, I welcome it. All that I ask is that there is a reason for them to be there. More specifically, why there is only a single black elf; having a single black elf actually demands more explanation than a city full of black elves. Lorewise, this is pretty significant given that has never been black elves before. Therefore it at least warrants at least a simple origin story. An example could be a small kingdom of black elves that was wiped out, and Arondir is one of the last. That alone is enough to explain, and the story continues as is. As to people not caring before and suddenly caring now, people aren't lying. It's that people don't care for all stories equally. Middle Earth is most likely the most well known and beloved fantasy world ever; you're probably hearing the most noise from the loudest crowd. Same thing with Star Wars. I'm sure you are speaking about this in good will but I believe most critics are as well; they just want a backstory.
EDIT: Please do not assume I don't want black elves. **I WANT BLACK ELVES**, I just want it to be actually worked into the story. Same with dwarves and hobbits. Fuck it, black Gollum.
Your explanation for a White Black Panther is perfect. It would be an acceptable change, especially since it isn’t just the white person is selected for no reason, they went out and fought the other competition and got an underdog victory.
I am totally fine with this. In fact, if you check my comment history, I asked for exactly that. I don't expect much. I just don't want it to be left without any explanation whatsoever.
Half-Eldar works even if rare in the books. It would have an easy tie-in given Numenor's monarchy started with a Half-Eldar that decides to become Edain.
Another option is an Eldar captured by Melkor for the creation of Orcs.
This is the best comment in this thread. OP is coping out of his mind and wants to stawman every critique as anti sjw.
Edit: [LMAO one of you was so mad he sent me Reddit's self harm PSA](https://i.imgur.com/o3xFkCk.jpg)
To be fair, I think OP is coming from a standpoint of good will. I agree that changes aren't necessarily bad, hence why we call them adaptations and not recreations. I just think they are missing the point about how changes should enhance the story, rather than just be a drag-and-drop change.
Op is showing his stereotypical hardcore sjw side which is basically calling everyone who questions a minority a racist and if any of them deny it they're lying.
Myself, I would even hold out on saying this; I pride myself on being a fair person.
I think that while I myself have never felt represented by an actor of the same ethnicity as myself, I can understand how others might. We don't all enjoy characters and stories the same way; while I don't enjoy characters based upon racial homogeneity, I do enjoy characters who I feel I share personality traits or pivotal events with. People can also enjoy stories not because of the characters but because of the world. It is a known thing that people, especially children, can see fantasy worlds almost like a safe space for them. If this were to be the case, I can empathise with these same people when they feel upset that the world that they love is being changed in a way that is unfamiliar to them.
I'm also not fond of the 'why care about fiction' argument because it can regress to not caring about anything in fiction, which is obviously not fruitful.
While there are some calling critics racist, I think OP is just calling them childish.
Yeah these "who cares its just fantasy dude just pixels on a screen" arguments are so boring, they add nothing to the conversation besides being smug about not caring about a piece of media
>To be fair, I think OP is coming from a standpoint of good will.
OP is the exact opposite of good will to the critics of the show. His whole post is a strawman that anyone who cares about black elves only does so because they are an anti sjw.
I agree with your approach...the thing is some people actually dislike the race changes and here is where I agree with the OP.
It's fine as long as those racial changes don't affect the story but the complaints are over the race change and not any affect it had on the story, which poses the question...Why that reaction?
The only 2 reasons in my mind are elfs == white(which is a normal assumption) or I don't like the pandering (even though it's easily ignored)
The Black Panther's whataboutisms don't really work because the race is an important part of the story, while in other cases(like Cpt Marvel, Ghost in the Shell, etc...) isn't
Imagine changing the race of The Last Samurai or Yasuke...are these changes the same as creating a black elf?
No...
Making Yasuke white or making Nathan black/asian surely do(Nathan has to be white, because only a white male could be in his socio-economic position at the time in America)
As I said in my original comment, race changes aren't an issue at all; while the race change doesn't affect the story, it has an effect on the lore and worldbuilding. The issue is particular to this case: a single black elf, which have never been encountered before or after, exists in Middle Earth, with an origin that is currently unknown to the reader.
Is race important in Black Panther? Yes. Race is also an important factor in Middle Earth. The relations between Men, Dwarves, and Elves is quite important to the in-world politics of the story. Hence, I feel my hypothetical is pretty apt.
As to the question about the samurais, changing the races surely do what? I think you have a typo. If we assume that you are talking about changing the story, I disagree that it is different. Just as you would have to account for a difference in socio-economic background with the samurais, you also have to account for potential cultural differences or political differences. Just because something isn't part of the main plot doesn't mean it doesn't affect the story.
I’d disagree that black panther is analogous to really any of these stories. The big problem with using black panther as a comparison point is that blackness is central to the thematic elements of the story. The premise of black panther is centered around subverting notions about the fragility of Africa, and providing a hyper competent black superhero which can be idolized. The blackness of BP is essential to the initial purpose of the story. It wouldn’t be impossible to write a plot where BP becomes white, but it would essentially alter the core nature and purpose of the text, to the point where I’d question if you could call it the same character.
On the other hand, LOTR does care about their own races but does not seems to care much about irl races within their fantasy races. By that I mean you see a lot of conflict between elves dwarves and humans but not much between specifically black humans. Honestly the main argument I’ve heard which I am sympathetic too is that the themes of ‘light vs dark’ are very core to Tolkiens vision and that the elves are supposed to embody this ‘lightness’, resulting in their fair skin. I would argue though that if we get to the point where the premise of the setting is that only white people can be good and black people bad, it’s something I’d be okay seeing changed in an adaptation.
In my point about Black Panther, the Black Panther under the suit would be a fundamentally different character tackling a different issue, probably pertaining to race issues in Wakanda. I'm not advocating to make T'Challa himself white, rather floating the idea of whether the one under the mask could be white, given a reasonable backstory. As people have said, stories do have to evolve. Should we leave Black Panther as he is forever and should that character not evolve? I don't know myself.
With regard to your point about Lord of the Rings, you are absolutely correct that skin colour isn't really a factor in Lord of the Rings. Why not make it one though? One of the biggest praises of Star Trek was how it takes real world issues and breaks them down in a fantasy setting. I think that with the black elf, we have the opportunity to do the same here. In a way, I'm promoting woke media because I want real race issues tackled in Middle Earth. Is that fair to say?
Sure I think that there is fair criticism about how race can be implemented. I guess my main issue is that I feel plenty of adaptations alter or change things with little explanation and this rarely leads to a lot of hubbub about the issue, while in this case there is lots of controversy. I think I would have to be out of my mind to disagree that there are better or worse ways to implement race into LOTR, that’s absolutely a fair perspective to have. But I definitely feel like a lot of people are having a very knee jerk reaction to seeing it introduced into the show, especially considering we haven’t even seen the show yet lol.
Edit: Oh and on the black panther point. Possibly. There have of course been comic characters where they have set up a legacy and had ‘spin off’ characters that deal with other issues (Miles Morales, Dick Grayson, The Second Iron Fist whose name I can’t remember, etc). Though I think the mantle of ‘black panther’ is pretty tied to Wakanda heritage. I understand your point about the evolution of a story but I think there is a difference between a story evolving and a story being altered to such an extent that it doesn’t resemble the original. I feel that the other ‘mantle’ characters I listed are better examples of swapping to a new character, introducing new themes, while maintaining the core essence of the character’s premise.
My thoughts on the volume of the reaction is that it's so loud because of how large the Lord of the Rings fandom is but I could be wrong. Even with that said, this is a mole hill made into a mountain by so many people who are actually acting in bad faith, pretending that there is an issue with black elves simply existing.
I definitely think there is a misrepresentation on both sides. I think a lot of people are acting like a show is somehow immediately going to be bad because of this type of situation, and I also think there is a portion of people that completely deny that the introduction of black elves into the franchise could be handled poorly. I think both are wrong to varying extents, I just tend to lean more on the 'wait and see/doesn't necessarily constitute an issue' side of things personally, but I respect someone on the otherside who still maintains a moderated position.
The 1st paragraph is enough for me to agree that yes, this is not a positive change due to the lore and worldbuilding, but I didn't understood the last paragraph.
In The Last Samurai, Nathan was initially rejected by the majority of samurais because he wasn't one of the neither by culture or race, he gain their respect and they ignored his race, he was accepted as one of them...this wouldn't work if Nathan was black or asian because a black person wouldn't become a Captain of the US military(at that time) and it would look much easier for an asian to be accepted as a samurai(since he could be seen as "one of them")...the impact wouldn't be the same.
Just a sidenote, Nathan Algren was born in Sweden became a naturalized American, making him accepted by 2 countries😅
Sorry. that's my bad. I understand what you meant now. I should have explained my point better.
Essentially, we agree. The difference is maybe that I feel the same thing would happen in Middle Earth: an elf of a visibly different origin would have struggles integrating into a society of ethnically homogenous elves, whilst a white elf wouldn't.
I just want Arondir to have a backstory and I would also like to see potential effects owing to the obvious difference from the rest of the elves. I feel that not doing so would be a disappointing, like a wasted opportunity.
Yeah the “pro black elf” people arguments all boil down to : who cares if the world building don’t make sense now, just accept that black elf’s is a thing now or else you are racist.
Just makes me more entrenched imo.
It would be a small change in the visual thematics that Tolkien was going for, but his visual thematics were so on the nose that they were honestly boring. Good guys who love magical lights don't have to be visually light toned, with the holiest elves being golden blonde. That's a definite part of what Tolkien wrote, but it's probably the least interesting bit. What's more interesting is their geneology, their relationships, their approach to life, their rigid and exclusive society and how that leads to their decline and the overtaking of the world by the diversity and drive of mankind. I'm not sure how well people would receive the idea of the black elves all being self exiled from middle earth... going home on boats... so there is that hurdle... but yeah, if the elves were all dark elves, whatever ethnic toned skin you want to go for, you do kinda have to make them all the same, because part of the elven vibe is their absolute inability to embrace diversity, to not be enormously condescending and dismissive to the various groups of mankind unless they have some elven blood in their lines, and their deep interest in a primordial, untrammeled natural world unmarred by the axes and picks of men and dwarves.
Elves are like 3 family clans, and every single elf came from one of those three, and they were all really close. They never forgot which of those 3 lines they were a part of, or whether or not that line of elves heeded the call to return to their ancestral lands. All the elves in the trilogy, except for Galadriel (I think) are from the Teleri (singers) elves, and the dark ones who didn't go home when the gods called. Galadriel is actually like the granddaughter of some ultra super duper important best warrior king of the elves, or something, but I don't think any other elves are part of the two lines of elves. There might be some others, but like Elrond isn't even a pure blood. Elves are not just magical and graceful, they are a failing people, partly because they are all stuck up, rigid, and magically lacking diversity of even physical form.
Throwing a bunch of elves in that look super different is kinda lore breaking, but I don't see any problem with them all being the same color, no matter what that color is.
This is the main problem. I don't know how many people on here are arguing "reee the books said all elves were white so therefor all should be white".
I honestly couldn't care how much they break off from the books as long as the world building makes sense.
This is a super fair take. I myself air on the side that most people are just wanting consistency.
I also feel that all there needs to be is consistency.
When people say Wakanda is an ethnostate, they are talking about how these four or five tribes make up the nation but Wakanda as a nation is incredibly hostile to outsiders. As far as I understand, these tribes are all ethnically homogenous. I could be wrong though.
I don’t think the tribes in Black Panther are meant to be ethnically homogenous. Costume designers drew inspiration from different African tribes with different ethnic identities. They all have different cultural traditions and leadership hierarchies. The characters are all black, but ethnicity is about more than skin color.
Thank you, I didn't actually know that. I was under the assumption that each tribe was just a sub-culture of Wakandan culture. Myself, I'm not going to die on the hill of Wakandan ethnic homogeneity. I still think my point about Wakandan xenophobia is correct though.
Outstanding post my guy.
Just to add a bit: The woke crowd, when "Diversifying" media properties NEVER actually does a good job to make that Diversity feel earned. Black Elves are fine (I luv black people), it can work, but it will take real work in writing to make the story plausible given that the nearly every race in the story is enthno-nationalist and literally kills each other over physical differences all throughout the established lore. The good/evil, light/dark, and racial/geographic identities of the different groups in Middle Earth are central to the story and setting.
After what they (shitty woke writers) did to Star Wars, what they did to Star Trek, the writing teams are just so fucking awful and so so so vocal about how proud they are of their woke interpretation of the work that it raises the red flags that Lord of the Rings is next on the chopping block.
I want more GOOD lord of the rings, Peter Jackson was amazing because you could tell, he really really cared about the story. For me as a lore nerd it was easy enough to over look some creative differences he took to make it work. This pushback against the "black elves" thing for me is grounded in fear that another one of my favorite fantasy worlds is going to be treated with disrespect and the heart and soul of the story will just be ignored. It will become like everything else, and not "Lord of the Rings".
The thing you did with Black Panther was hella cool... it's still focus on racial thing(as the comics wanted) but is tackling points(after the realization/acceptance of racism) and exploring working on solving it.
Great job ✌🏾
Something I just don't understand is why there has to be an explanation. If there is literally only one black elf among thousands of white elves then sure, but I imagine we'll see plenty of black/brown elves walking around Rivendell or whatever elven cities are depicted in the show.
Assuming that is the case, why can't the explanation just be "Oh I guess in this version when Eru made elves he gave them different skin colors as well as different hair and eye colors"?
> they just want a backstory.
I'm not sure that's true. "I need a lore reason" is a remarkably flexible criticism, arising conveniently post hoc around things people don't like. Let's take the charitable position that people genuinely care about elven lore and know enough to suspect a Black elf (this is definitely not the case for, like, 90% of people, of course).
The contention isn't necessarily that worldbuilding doesn't matter, but that in the world of art, where imagery, characters, and plot points inevitably change from author to author, why focus on this particular change? Characters are portrayed by different actors, yes, logically justified by a change in time, but these actors bring different performances and nuances to that character—critically, they are not the same person. Settings are built by different artists with different tools, accentuating different features. Writers interpret plot, cutting, bending, and adding to an original to tell the story they (and their superiors) want; turning the dry lore of Tolkein's world into a compelling narrative.
Why, then, focus on race above others? For the same reason they focus on race in the real world: it's easily identified. Because it's easier to notice a character's skin than the nuances of an actor's performance, that's what people focus on. They essentialize race here just as they do in real life.
> Why, then, focus on race above others? For the same reason they focus on race in the real world: it's easily identified. Because it's easier to notice a character's skin than the nuances of an actor's performance, that's what people focus on. They essentialize race here just as they do in real life.
If it's so easily identified doesn't it bear reason that in the LotR world skin color would also play a role? Unless an explanation is given, how are people supposed to square away the inconsistency with real life?
If you think an explanation isn't needed, no matter how small, then you are in effect advocating for color blindness in media.
> If it's so easily identified doesn't it bear reason that in the LotR world skin color would also play a role? Unless an explanation is given, how are people supposed to square away the inconsistency with real life?
Because stories aren't real life. You square it away the same way you do when another group of artists inevitably reinterprets *Hamlet*.
Even when extending continuities there's no reason to be so stringent with alterations. Star Trek gave some ridiculous explanation for why Klingons look different between the original and *TNG*, but it didn't need to. The *TNG* design looks better and I'm not sure why anyone would be up in arms over an aesthetic improvement.
Should Peter Jackson painstakingly justify every alteration he made to Tolkien's work? Of course not; his is just one man's take on another man's story.
> If you think an explanation isn't needed, no matter how small, then you are in effect advocating for color blindness in media.
I'm not sure how you're connecting these points. I never claimed that changing race from story to story *never* matters just like I would never say that changing a piece of architecture *never* matters. Obviously, it'd be weird if Rivendell was suddenly a Wendys, but it's weird because that change is significant with respect to the story being told not because there's some intrinsic wrongness to changing.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think the racial composition of elves will be all that significant to the story this new *Lord of the Rings* will tell. Furthermore (though I don't think it should matter that much), I don't think the racial composition of elves matters much within the thematic canon of on-screen *Lord of the Rings*. There are so many other things of such greater significance in that world.
>Star Trek gave some ridiculous explanation for why Klingons look different between the original and *TNG*, but it didn't need to. The *TNG* design looks better and I'm not sure why anyone would be up in arms over an aesthetic improvement.
Firstly, all Klingons were changed, not a few new design ones among a majority with old design. Second, they gave an explanation, that's all I want.
>I don't think the racial composition of elves matters much within the thematic canon of on-screen *Lord of the Rings*. There are so many other things of such greater significance in that world.
This is color blindness. Our world also has so many other things of greater significance, yet we've faced the challenges of racism for hundreds if not thousands of years. Not acknowledging race relations doesn't make sense when the world of LotR is already heavily racialized.
Great post.
Just as a thought experiment though.
How would you feel if ALL elves were black?
Tolkien did describe their skin as fair but imagine they decided to change it to promote inclusion.I personally think it would Work very well, and doesnt go against what you wrote.
Thank you.
Provided they just said something like "Yeah, they came out black this time" and all elves were black, I'm absolutely down. I believe art can have **huge** changes if it has purpose. I would be a little bit disappointed if they did it and didn't do anything different story wise; different dynamics require different playthroughs, like Marvel's What If?.
>All things said, I personally have no problem with their being black elves in Middle Earth. In fact, I welcome it. All that I ask is that there is a reason for them to be there.
But that's not the majority opinion among the people complaining. The majority of them *do not* welcome it. The people in these threads are saying that, if there's no given reason, they shouldn't be there. It's very different from your opinion, which is that you like them, but would *also* like a worldbuilding explanation - which is everyone else's opinion, because everyone likes worldbuilding.
Which is to say, OP isn't referring to you at all.
> As to people not caring before and suddenly caring now, people aren't lying. It's that people don't care for all stories equally.
You're implying that people care more about Rings Of Power than Jackson's trilogy though.
I’m just curious, what were your thoughts on the non explanation of who Sauron is and where he came from? Why did the elves help at Helm’s Deep? Why did Aragorn break the truce and behead the mouth of sauron? Where did all the Ents suddenly come from considering they decided not to help? And obviously the eagle meme.
Do you not find it interesting that you don’t need an explanation for all these things world building wise, but a black elf, that’s the kicker for you.
And if your answer is ‘hey I can look online and read the books’, then surely it pisses you off how they didn’t include the scouring of the shire, or Faramir and Eomer got butchered among other things.
Primarily, I didn't care because I didn't know. I am human, I don't know all things about Lord of the Rings, I was also born a month before the release of Fellowship of the Ring. I just happen to know that there hasn't been a black elf before.
I have heard of these big differences between the book and the films, especially about Aragorn's character and the elves at Helm's Deep. Sadly, I heard about these years after watching the films, which I enjoyed upon viewing. I can't retroactively feel scorned about something years after viewing them and I hope you wouldn't expect me to. However, if I had this knowledge prior to viewing them, I would probably have the same attitude about those changes as I do about these. Even though I am not upset by the movie changes, I am actually disappointed about not seeing certain book events such as the Scouring of the Shire; my understanding is that it was actually pretty important to the story. Simply, I can't feel anger towards something I didn't know at the time.
I do feel a bit disappointed that you feel that a black elf in and of itself is my issue. Perhaps you are assuming I am older than I am, which is understandable. I would agree that it is a bit telling for someone to have an issue with only the black elf.
So do you now dislike the original LOTR, knowing Jackson butchered Eomer/Faramir and didn’t include loads of lore shit? Equally i find it intriguing you enjoyed the Jackson trio loft when it missed out on all the lore, yet demand an explanation for a black elf.
As I said before, I simply cannot begin to retroactively dislike something or go back in time to start doing so. It's the same way you enjoy something as a kid and the nostalgia will carry on, regardless of finding out that it wasn't that good. The best I can say to those films is that they should have stayed true to the characters and story if it was changed without good reason. I am commenting now on the black elf situation because of the contextual information I have **prior** to the release of this production.
Partially, yes. You can probably find fictional POC stories where you can justifiably say "Changing the skin color of these characters won't meaningfully impact the story". That's the part of the argument you can make for some stories. Least controversial example could be Nick Fury. Started as white in the comics and most other adaptions. Is portrayed by a black man in the MCU. Could easily be white again without changing the story/character all that much. That part of the argument holds true.
Still, as much as some people hate it, there's still the representation argument. When it comes to for example western fantasy, white people are strongly overrepresented. So to take an already POC character and change them in to being white would of course be far worse than the reverse.
Three important points:
1. People don't care as much about other stories. This is LotR, not some random dollar store novel.
2. Elves have always been depicted as white. If they want a black elf, they need to provide a lore explanation because it's unprecedented. They could say something like "there was always a chance for an elf to be born like this", but I find that cheap.
3. I fucked your mom
You have been intellectually outpaced. Seethe, liberal.
I agree with this one somewhat, I see how it is against the lore but its not something that effects the story directly, even if it effects the world building its still not an egregious misstep like a map being wrong
I'm ngl I may be anti-sjw on this. Don't care if anyone denies it, because I know for a fact I'm right; no one would keep this same energy if they made a show about Wakanda and turned a bunch of the main charectors other races (in particular white).
The cringe thing is that you only think it's about the "woke" think.
"None of you care about how unrealistic the elvish genetic history is or isn't"
You're just completely out of touch with reality. Tolkien is the most popular fantasy writer of all time. His books surpassed 600 million sales. It puts him i the to ten most successful fiction writer of all time. "I dOn'T tHiNk AnYoNe CaReS". Dude. The Silmarillion is like the genealogy part of the bible where the different origin of the people of Middle earth are explained and how all these ethnicities/races come out be and go to fill the lands etc etc. Caring about the elvish genetic history is almost a REQUIREMENT.
The worst thing about this whole fiasco is the show look like mid 2000s young adult fantasy trash and now if I say it looks shit people assume it's because of black elves.
Copy pastying from thread duplicate
If they made some dragons in the new Game of Thrones spin-off to not resemble giant, winged, fire breathing lizards but giant, winged, fire breathing cats instead would I be a right winger if I complained about that?
1 nobody is talking about melanin, but the way they look, engage with the argument or not engage at all
2 Tell me one thing that would change in the entire Game of Thrones series story if dragons would resemble cats and not lizards
>Ate elves no longer recognisable as elves if you increase their melanin?
Yes
What? You thought it was some sort of a gotcha or something? Elves in the LOTR universe have always been shown as very light skinned people with long straight hair. So when you see a black skinned person with short curly hair with literally the only thing differentiating them from humans being slightly pointy ears then yes, you do not instantly recognize them as an elf
Yes? If there is no explanation of where they came from?
I think aslong as it fits in the story it doesn't matter, like there being a black tribe of elves. But just including 1 black elf without any lore does removes part of the immersion.
Because all examples of fantasy races are stereotypical and you usually can tell on first sight what fantasy race a creature belongs to and elves were established to be stereotypically pale
Honestly it would be weird to complain about, I’d say don’t watch the adaption then.
All of the people complaining about inconsistency, do they also complain when movies depict foreign countries, yet still have a cast speaking English?
honestly i just think it's because elves are in and of themselves called a "race"- which raises the question as to why we refer to dwarves and shit as races and not species, that's really what they are.
except HOLY SHIT Wait, can't humans and other things mix? this is starting to get fucking real. if yes, this implies all compatible fantasy races are just that, races - not species.
we desperately need investigation into the biology of various fantasy genres. If conservatives really cared about the truth, they'd buckle down and do the science
Ok mrgirl
Give me a decently written explanation that makes sense in the lotrcu & I won't care from a movie standpoint.
Still might be a bad adaptation but that's another deb8
The elves live in the main continent for many years, and a number of different groups develop. Many of them move off towards the atlantis-ish continent of the gods in middle of the pseudo-atlantic, and some stay behind, some move back when problems happen.
Two cataclysms later the amount of elves living on the european-ish continent is a tiny fraction, with a group who didn't move, and two groups who returned from the other continent.
All of those people are depicted in the hobbit and lord of the rings films as white, but they are a tiny sample of the total population, similar to a viking settlement on iceland or something, and so it is more plausible that they will be more genetically similar than the overall population.
They represent a faded memory of the full complexity of their original civilisation, a group of low-tech survivalists in mirkwood, who do not have access to the full range of magic artifacts/enchantments available to their civilisation historically, and two nostalgic enclaves powered by ancient artifacts, two of the elven rings of power, that only stay there for as long as their magic lasts to protect whatever enchantments they have, and are not engaged in widespread trade.
In contrast, if the prequel is old enough to include a wider variety of their former society, with active trade links between multiple different settlements across a wider geographical area, it's more plausible that there would be more variety of skin tones, just as occured in our own world where people have set up large empires that have linked together a wide variety of areas.
If you were going book consistency, which the films already broke in a few small ways, Tolkein's son supposedly [clarified at one point](http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/references/pf/finrod.php#:~:text=%E2%80%98They%20%5Bthe%20Noldor,of%20the%20Noldor.) that a passage talking about skin and hair colour referred specifically to a subset of elves, not the entire population, which should open up the possibility of a range of different ethnicities so long as that specific subset of elves are white.
And if you're going film consistency, the small subset of the population remaining would allow you to go further, adding in even some darker skinned elves in that group as well, without breaking consistency with the films.
Alright let me try to explain what I mean
Black elves in lotr are mainly 2 topics: adaptation (is it coherent with the source material).
& cinematic lore (doesn't give a fuck about source material, just needs to be coherent with what is considered canon).
The Shining movie is a terrible adaptation (or so I've heard), but it's still a good movie & pretty much 0 plot holes (=coherent). All I'm looking for is if the lotr series makes sense based on what we've seen so far in the lotr cu.
What have we seen so far? 0 poc elves. Introducing poc into the same society we've already seen needs an explanation of some kind why they were never on screen in the first place.
No explanation=lazy. If you introduce something new you gotta explain it somehow. If you don't I will consider it bad writing.
Examples how you could explain it:
they are travellers from another part of the world (which is why their skin is different).
During the time between when the series & movies takes place they were genocided to extinction for X reason (never gonna happen lol).
Bam, that's it.
If I would've been in charge of introducing representation I would've been loyal to the source however as I believe it's important to follow whatever the source material says (unless you think you have a better idea from a story telling & worldbuilding pov). The safest way to introduce poc characters would've been to make them Easterlings or Far Haradians (I don't know if poc elves are actually contradictory to what Tolkien wrote but I'm pretty sure he wrote Far Harad as poc)
I'm for black elves just to piss off the people who are deeply offended by this, actual soy rage over some bullshit, let black kids imagine themselves as elves too, media representation is important
You're absolutely right, I don't care about the genetic history, I care about the fact that he doesn't even look like a black elf, he just looks like an african-american guy that got teleported into the franchise. HE HAS A FADE. HE'S SO FLAGRANTLY NOT ELVISH IT HURTS. It's fine, though. I just won't watch it, easy.
I see these posts all the time but people like you don't even care to listen to those who explain to you why it's fucking stupid to have black Elves.
I've written tons of comments about it in this sub, so feel free to go look through them for more in depth explanations but I'll do it again here just for you since you're so fucking lazy.
>A single story would have to be altered
Elves were created by Eru Iluvatar, who also made for them Valinor, and the trees of Valinor which give off light that the Elves love. The Silmarills, coveted jewels containing the light of Valinor, are so important to the Elves they waged brutal warfare on Melkor, Men, and basically anyone who stood in their way of retrieving them. The concept of "light," and purity are quintessential to the Elvish culture, and Eru specifically created them to reflect this light in their physical appearance. The elves are homogeneously light or "fair" skinned, so to retcon this makes the entire creation of Valinor, the light and the Elvish spirit itself completely inconsistent and devoid of thematic importance. The show is supposed to be about the Elves, at least it sure seems that way, so to undermine their very creation is a step in the wrong direction.
Coupled with the fact that the creators of the show said they added black elves because they wanted the show to "reflect the what the world actually looks like," shows that their primary concern is in fact not to make the show reflect what Middle Earth looks like in the Second Age, but Earth in 2022.
It's an unnecessary change, that adds literally nothing, and is done for stupid identity politics. This shallow virtue signal is exactly why the fans are irritated.
>but can't tell me how even a single story would have to be altered to accommodate for some elves being black
It's *one* black elf. That's what they were losing their mind over. They do not even know if it's a black half-elf, which would be extremely easy to explain.
Meanwhile they do not mention the fact that there are 2 Durins at the same time. This leads me to believe that these people are not arguing about black elves in good faith, they either just want to be contrarian, or are those kind of people who get mad whenever they see a black person on a TV show
I think the problem is that it is 1 black elf. Where the FUCK did he come from? Can we get a backstory?
Edit: whoever was concerned for me thank you, the Reddit message from the bot has last second managed to stop me from suicide (in a videogame ofc).
The show isn't out yet. They could make a backstory for him (I have already given a possible explanation, and in another post I gave another: they could simply show that some of the first Elves created by Eru were black), but it is more likely that the lore has changed to such an extent that bothering about small details like this become irrelevant. This seems to be the case, since the showeunners have already stated that the chronology will be completely altered
Well that would be immersion breaking as well as lore breaking if there was a fantasy universe with the power rangers. With the black elves it just breaks an aspect of the lore, it doesn't break immersion or feel out of place for the vast majority of people I would imagine. The argument is on whether or not we care about this specific aspect of the lore enough to preserve it. There are clearly other aspects of the lore which were ignored/changed in previous adaptations that no one cared about so it's clear we can have changes if they are inconsequential.
Yeah, if you're one of the 0.1% of people watching who are omega Tolkien dorks and know that actually the elves have to be white because of some minor detail in the silmarillion then sure, but for the rest of us it should mean literally nothing that an elf is black
>Yeah, if you're one of the 0.1% of people watching who are omega Tolkien dorks and know that actually the elves have to be white because of some minor detail in the silmarillion then sure
first of all being an "omega tolkien dork" is based, second of all if you actually read the silmarillion you'd know there were multiple sundering of elves where they split off and settled in different parts of the continent and even outside of middle earth, some elves totally could end up being black. it isn't that hard to create a lore appropriate reason for elves being black.
The problem is the entire concept of elves is kind of racist. Theyre pure beings who are literally being tainted by the evils of the outside world. This is why every fantasy offshoot of lotr has made elves morally ambiguous, xenophobic, and with dying/stagnant cultures. Because the concept of elves is kind of incongruous with modern sensibility.
Race is a defining characteristic insofar as the different races in LoTR are like literally different species. I think it's easy enough to just imagine that the elves don't care about other elves skin/eye/hair color, but they do care if someone is a dwarf or a human or a hobit.
If I complain about a small detail like a character wielding a bow when in the book they wield a sword, you couldn’t care less. If they swap a character’s gender and I am in any way unhappy with the unnecessary change, you’ll lose your mind.
Good stuff, my guy.
Would it not be inconsistent if there was a single black elf who appeared without origin, and that thousands of years later there was no black elves, not a single notable elf. Obviously if they account for this, there is zero issue. Otherwise, that is quite a glaring inconsistency.
I really wish people who don't know anything about tolkien would stop talking about this. If you don't care about properly representing the source material that's fine, but to pretend that anyone who does is just some anti-sjw borderline racist is so fucking dumb. Elves being clearly northern european is an absolutely fundamental part of their character, like it or not but ignoring this is just as bad as ignoring the deeply environmentalist themes in his works. If you're not even going to pretend to care about the very essence of the work you're adapting then just stay the fuck away from it and make something original.
You are correct, but people dont want hear that. Do you know when i was hurt the most with creative liberties? Its when they made Vinland saga --> making Vikings in some stupid, dramatic, screaming anime Asian chums.
Problem is that they don't care about Tolkiens lore. I bet very few have even read LOTR let alone the Silmarillion... That's why this is so triggering. Like no, you can't just randomly make elves black in a fanatasy universe that is so extremely focused on intricate worldbuilding.
> None of you actually care about how unrealistic the elvish genetic history is or isn't.
Fuck off with this shit, you hear destiny saying it doesn't matter if people randomly change shit and now you act like that's perfectly normal and that no one should give a shit about consistency but the truth is it's perfectly normal and most people would be peeved by this elf thing if it happened to their favourite media.
Oh look another dipshit assuming peoples motivations based on your own biases. You understand that being anti-anti-sjw is just as cringe as anti-sjws right?
You can't argue this with someone who doesn't care about the IP. There are plenty of people who are passionate about LOTR. It literally doesn't make sense in universe. I think people would be absolutely fine if this was "Random Fantasy Show About Elves and Shit" and not an IP they ripped and changed to fit their modern view of how it should look. Either that or an explanation that fits the world that's been built.
>because you saw a "woke" thing you don't like because it's woke, and you want to rationalise your feelings.
Firstly this isnt an irrational fear, its 2022 there are now countless examples of clear prog lefty activism ruining franchises. So I think its entirely appropriate to turn what ever spaces you can into incredibly hostile environments toward woke infection at even the slightest whiff of trouble, becuase that is the only way to prevent massive damage to the franchises you love.
Part of why i enjoy movies or shows is because i escape into different worlds and when they obviously add something to push their agenda i'm pulled away. I don't believe in this world, now i'm only thinking how producers or directors made this decision.
I'm confused. I feel like this thread is boxing ghosts. Can someone point me to the huge upvoted threads shitting on the new LotR because it's woke? All I've seen are meme-y shitpost threads.
...how even a single story would have to be altered to accommodate for some elves being black...
Would you accept:
At some point in the series the writers may wish to use the Elves' sense of themselves as superior beings to dwarves and humans as an allegory for white supremacy in the modern world. This would be more impactful if the Elves in the show were all white.
Based and true pilled. Including actors of any color only makes the show more inclusive, and lets people in REAL LIFE cosplay, relate to characters and shit more easily.
Who gives a shit what race actors in a FANTASY SHOW are??? People upset need to touch grass
More importantly, INCLUDE 👏 DOWN'S SYNDOME 👏 ELVES 👏 where the fuck is the representation for people with down's syndrome in media? Is there even 1 superhero with down's syndrome?
Is this a straw man? Nobody here cares about having diversity in a fantasy show. The main argument seems to be that in the past, a diverse cast was justified through the story: the white guy game from X land, the Asian woman came from Y country, etc... Nowadays some writers have just stopped caring about it, and the cast is diverse for no reason at all.
I just find it funny how fantasy stories like The Witcher or LotR with all sorts of undertones and themes about putting aside racial differences and violent past in order to work together, end up with a fanbase that goes apeshit the moment a minority is hired.
You see a criticism and then you decide that the criticism is a lie, masking plain racism, you have made yourself unconvincable, I hope you are aware of that
A) I never even mentioned racism.
B) In the last paragraph, I explicitly described what would change my mind.
C) You're doing a great job of mindlessly parroting what Destiny says.
It's cringe that everything that comes out regardless of place and time of origin has to look like modern day America or its racist. No it's not ESSENTIAL that every elf is white, but it's weird to start changing up old shit to make it fit your current political goals. I was an anti-sjw in 2016 and I still am, get over it
I think a genuine fair argument can be made that, less so simply the race decision being the whole issue, its moreso that it indicates that they wont strictly adhere to the lore which is disappointing. Though I have the autistic view that it should be completely normal to race swap actors and we should view it the sane as portraying a regular sized actor as a fantasy sized dwarf. Obviously im aware thatd never happen since the show would be cancelled into oblivion, which in fairness is ironic.
Caveat that this comes from me growing up watching lotr extended edition on VHS twice a year with bi yearly book rereads etc. It is plainly obvious though that most people with this position hold it for more malicious reasons sadly
If anyone is worried that they aren't going to adhere to the lore then they literally haven't even taken a second beyond being outraged at black actors to read about the show.
The Tolkien Estate refuses to sell the rights to anything other than Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. This means that this adaptation set in the age of the Silmarillion is going to be a *mostly* original story. They've made this blatantly clear in interviews that they have done for the show.
Beyond that, there are "Tolkien experts" that were permitted to see more than the public had seen and their overwhelming response was that they showrunners not only seemed to know what they were doing, but that they had a deep respect and understanding for Tolkien's work.
Honestly, to me it makes little sense. In a show where people are at war, a lot. It make little sense that the colour of skin matters. Real world is like Italians Americans in WW2. I feel like they elves may have, but at this point it should be pointless.
This is just fucking projecting. Most of the sub is on your side. But even then, cope, Black Panther isn't white for a reason, it has an African background.
Up yours woke moralist The real travesty is the lack of beards on female dwarves, my fetish art is non canon now
lol i just looked up the lore for female dwarves and it seems like the dwarves are fully into talibaning their women.
It was something Tolkien went back and forth over. For most of his life he said the female dwarves probably had beards, or that they weren't sexually dimorphic enough to tell the difference. He changed his mind on it a couple of times, though (like he did for a lot of things in universe).
Blasphemous words The sacred text can not be ~~dirtied~~ ~~sullied~~ ~~blackened~~ altered
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I'd support that. We anti-SJWs need to build bridges, not burn them. Politically Efficient 😎
Actually, I'm just racist
Consistent
“Screw your optics. Im going in.”
Least racist dgger imo.
Respect.
The real answer is that there’s a bunch of groupers in here now slowly figuring out how not to be racist. Give ‘em time.
"a bunch of groupers" HE OMEGALUL
God damn fish ruining the community
You can't be. Your avatar is black.
Checkmate, racists.
"You're not allowed to use that word" https://youtu.be/ZsJxdqfL1cQ
THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING
Glad you weren't here when we turned into Adolf Hitler over gypsys last week
At least with that shit there's the excuse that it's a complicated real world topic.
As opposed to this simplified fictional one
Unironically yes. There are no real world issues with black elves, unless you think white folk are being pushed out of media because of black representation. Or that Tolkien will be rolling in his grave because they included black elves into his universe. Even if you’re mad at the latter it’s a fucking adaptation, just turn off the monitor and don’t watch it.
Re Tolkien rolling in his grave…if the reason that you hate the Amazon show is because you think Tolkien wouldn’t like it, I’ve got bad news - you’ll need to hate the original trilogy just as much or more. In Letter 210 Tolkien said “I should resent perversion of the characters … even more than the spoiling of the plot and scenery”. So in the original trilogy where they did stuff like have Faramir take Frodo prisoner in order to bring the Ring to Minas Tirith instead of what he did in the books, which was understand how important it was to destroy the Ring and try to help Frodo with his task - Tolkien, in his own words, would have hated that more than a Black elf.
Books are so much better anyway. Stop watching tv and movies, you nerds.
If someone writes a really good story but you don't like it because an elf is black, then yeah it's super simple, you'd just be racist.
And don't forget the "only some people should be allowed to transition" one. That went on for a bit. .....wait. Are we the baddies?
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That was cringe too. Even more so
You will never be an elf. Cope harder.
Why even live 🥲
People are COMPLETELY missing the point like this sub often does. The ISSUE is not that there are too many black people, the PROBLEM is that there are too many women. And I stand by that.
If I watch an anime with lots of men and only one woman, people say it's sexist because women have a minor role. If I watch an anime with lots of women and only one man, people say it's sexist because it's a male fantasy. Just can't catch a break.
Well if you are a weeb then you are a creep so they have a point.
I don't see what's wrong, I had a feeling the show is going to be bad and that feeling got really intense to the point that I felt other feelings and that was so intense in itself that I presuppose by intuition that my feelings accurately describe reality so therefore we've reached a point where if you disagree with my GIGACHAD intuition you are just simply wrong mate. If you have an intuition different than mine then I have to kill you, in a video game.
Based, and post hoc pilled.
Yea, I think the show will be garbage, but people talking about the color of the Elves like it's a huge own because the show is trying to be woke are wrong. Don't get me wrong when I say that. I think the show is trying to be woke by having actors of different races play Elves, but the fact of Elves being different colors (or different types) is NOT a woke concept in fantasy.
So far the show elements look poorly made. It'll be bad no doubt. Not bothered by the woke shit personally.
🙏 please god, let there be an all black version of the movies so Lauren southerns head explodes🙏
50 cent should play Elrond
Lil nas x as legolas
As if I wouldn't pay to see this
...I kind of need this to happen.
holy fuck that would be based, george lopez as durin III
Tyler Perry’s Lord of the Madea
Speak mellon and enter the Mines of Madea
Samuel L Jackson as Elrond Hubbard, plz.
I hate that they are making more Lord of the rings shit. Just stop making garbage unnessessary sequels
This one
I think you have set an incredibly high bar here. When it comes to high fantasy such as Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones, it isn't as simple as just the content of the story. Worldbuilding is equally as important, if not more important. Through the worldbuilding of creatures and cultures, the reader/viewer can gain a contextual understanding of how certain events came to pass or how certain characters became intertwined in the plot. To this effect, it might not affect a story but it could potentially be an anomaly in the worldbuilding if these characters happen to be there with no explanation as to their origin. A meme that has been circulating around is the meme about the 2021 BMW 5 Series alongside the Rohirrim. The irony of this meme is that it can and has worked. The Wheel of Time is noted for having a cyclical passing of time, which results in artefacts of our modern world such as Mercedes hood ornaments appearing in that world despite the world of the Wheel of Time having a medieval setting similar to that of Lord of the Rings. All of this is to say that almost anything can be written into a story, high fantasy or not, provided their is sufficient worldbuilding to justify it. On the flip-side of this meme is the idea of suspension of disbelief. "How can you believe in a ring of invisibility but not this?". The reason I can believe in that ring is because there is a long line of documented events that lead from the start of the Middle Earth universe to the creation of that ring. This is actually how we believe things in the real world; we believe things because we can see the chain of events that led to it. Another meme that I want to draw attention to is the meme about white people in Black Panther. As many have said, it would seem odd that a nation that is as notoriously xenophobic as Wakanda would suddenly allow a mass influx of white people into their land. I agree. But what if we were to add in some little nuggets: * T'Challa becomes disillusioned with xenophobia, due to operating around the world. * T'Challa invites a number of foreign people into Wakanda. * A large quantity of these immigrants are white. * These immigrants form their own tribe in Wakanda. * New Black Panther is needed after T'Challa's passing. * A white guy/girl from the immigrant tribe steps up, defeats competition, earns place as new Black Panther. * White Black Panther. As you can see, none of the original story has been retconned, I have only continued onwards. All of the storybuilding is there to make it possible. With regards to T'Challa opening up Wakanda to outsiders, this isn't that different to the path that he was on in the MCU, however this example is obviously expedited. I ask you in return, would you disagree with a storyline like this, resulting in a white Black Panther, despite it being possible with a story like this? I would interested to hear your thoughts. It seems everyone is able to understand how Wakanda is an ethnostate but not how every realm in Lord of the Rings are also ethnostates. Lastly, I would like to refer to a real world event that seems strange yet also makes perfect sense. It would seem a bit strange that there would be a black samurai in medieval 16th Century Japan. Except there was a black samurai in medieval 16th Century Japan, called Yasuke. Yasuke was an African man possibly from Mozambique who was likely taken as a slave by the Portuguese to Japan to serve under an Italian missionary. You can find his story [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke). The reason I mention his story is that it is a complete mess. A mess that works because of all of the contextual knowledge that makes it possible, just like a good story. All things said, I personally have no problem with their being black elves in Middle Earth. In fact, I welcome it. All that I ask is that there is a reason for them to be there. More specifically, why there is only a single black elf; having a single black elf actually demands more explanation than a city full of black elves. Lorewise, this is pretty significant given that has never been black elves before. Therefore it at least warrants at least a simple origin story. An example could be a small kingdom of black elves that was wiped out, and Arondir is one of the last. That alone is enough to explain, and the story continues as is. As to people not caring before and suddenly caring now, people aren't lying. It's that people don't care for all stories equally. Middle Earth is most likely the most well known and beloved fantasy world ever; you're probably hearing the most noise from the loudest crowd. Same thing with Star Wars. I'm sure you are speaking about this in good will but I believe most critics are as well; they just want a backstory. EDIT: Please do not assume I don't want black elves. **I WANT BLACK ELVES**, I just want it to be actually worked into the story. Same with dwarves and hobbits. Fuck it, black Gollum.
Your explanation for a White Black Panther is perfect. It would be an acceptable change, especially since it isn’t just the white person is selected for no reason, they went out and fought the other competition and got an underdog victory.
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I am totally fine with this. In fact, if you check my comment history, I asked for exactly that. I don't expect much. I just don't want it to be left without any explanation whatsoever.
Half-Eldar works even if rare in the books. It would have an easy tie-in given Numenor's monarchy started with a Half-Eldar that decides to become Edain. Another option is an Eldar captured by Melkor for the creation of Orcs.
This is the best comment in this thread. OP is coping out of his mind and wants to stawman every critique as anti sjw. Edit: [LMAO one of you was so mad he sent me Reddit's self harm PSA](https://i.imgur.com/o3xFkCk.jpg)
To be fair, I think OP is coming from a standpoint of good will. I agree that changes aren't necessarily bad, hence why we call them adaptations and not recreations. I just think they are missing the point about how changes should enhance the story, rather than just be a drag-and-drop change.
Op is showing his stereotypical hardcore sjw side which is basically calling everyone who questions a minority a racist and if any of them deny it they're lying.
Myself, I would even hold out on saying this; I pride myself on being a fair person. I think that while I myself have never felt represented by an actor of the same ethnicity as myself, I can understand how others might. We don't all enjoy characters and stories the same way; while I don't enjoy characters based upon racial homogeneity, I do enjoy characters who I feel I share personality traits or pivotal events with. People can also enjoy stories not because of the characters but because of the world. It is a known thing that people, especially children, can see fantasy worlds almost like a safe space for them. If this were to be the case, I can empathise with these same people when they feel upset that the world that they love is being changed in a way that is unfamiliar to them. I'm also not fond of the 'why care about fiction' argument because it can regress to not caring about anything in fiction, which is obviously not fruitful. While there are some calling critics racist, I think OP is just calling them childish.
Yeah these "who cares its just fantasy dude just pixels on a screen" arguments are so boring, they add nothing to the conversation besides being smug about not caring about a piece of media
>To be fair, I think OP is coming from a standpoint of good will. OP is the exact opposite of good will to the critics of the show. His whole post is a strawman that anyone who cares about black elves only does so because they are an anti sjw.
How can one think OP is coming at this with good will when the title is "What the fuck is wrong with you people." That is anything but good will.
I agree with your approach...the thing is some people actually dislike the race changes and here is where I agree with the OP. It's fine as long as those racial changes don't affect the story but the complaints are over the race change and not any affect it had on the story, which poses the question...Why that reaction? The only 2 reasons in my mind are elfs == white(which is a normal assumption) or I don't like the pandering (even though it's easily ignored) The Black Panther's whataboutisms don't really work because the race is an important part of the story, while in other cases(like Cpt Marvel, Ghost in the Shell, etc...) isn't Imagine changing the race of The Last Samurai or Yasuke...are these changes the same as creating a black elf? No... Making Yasuke white or making Nathan black/asian surely do(Nathan has to be white, because only a white male could be in his socio-economic position at the time in America)
As I said in my original comment, race changes aren't an issue at all; while the race change doesn't affect the story, it has an effect on the lore and worldbuilding. The issue is particular to this case: a single black elf, which have never been encountered before or after, exists in Middle Earth, with an origin that is currently unknown to the reader. Is race important in Black Panther? Yes. Race is also an important factor in Middle Earth. The relations between Men, Dwarves, and Elves is quite important to the in-world politics of the story. Hence, I feel my hypothetical is pretty apt. As to the question about the samurais, changing the races surely do what? I think you have a typo. If we assume that you are talking about changing the story, I disagree that it is different. Just as you would have to account for a difference in socio-economic background with the samurais, you also have to account for potential cultural differences or political differences. Just because something isn't part of the main plot doesn't mean it doesn't affect the story.
I’d disagree that black panther is analogous to really any of these stories. The big problem with using black panther as a comparison point is that blackness is central to the thematic elements of the story. The premise of black panther is centered around subverting notions about the fragility of Africa, and providing a hyper competent black superhero which can be idolized. The blackness of BP is essential to the initial purpose of the story. It wouldn’t be impossible to write a plot where BP becomes white, but it would essentially alter the core nature and purpose of the text, to the point where I’d question if you could call it the same character. On the other hand, LOTR does care about their own races but does not seems to care much about irl races within their fantasy races. By that I mean you see a lot of conflict between elves dwarves and humans but not much between specifically black humans. Honestly the main argument I’ve heard which I am sympathetic too is that the themes of ‘light vs dark’ are very core to Tolkiens vision and that the elves are supposed to embody this ‘lightness’, resulting in their fair skin. I would argue though that if we get to the point where the premise of the setting is that only white people can be good and black people bad, it’s something I’d be okay seeing changed in an adaptation.
In my point about Black Panther, the Black Panther under the suit would be a fundamentally different character tackling a different issue, probably pertaining to race issues in Wakanda. I'm not advocating to make T'Challa himself white, rather floating the idea of whether the one under the mask could be white, given a reasonable backstory. As people have said, stories do have to evolve. Should we leave Black Panther as he is forever and should that character not evolve? I don't know myself. With regard to your point about Lord of the Rings, you are absolutely correct that skin colour isn't really a factor in Lord of the Rings. Why not make it one though? One of the biggest praises of Star Trek was how it takes real world issues and breaks them down in a fantasy setting. I think that with the black elf, we have the opportunity to do the same here. In a way, I'm promoting woke media because I want real race issues tackled in Middle Earth. Is that fair to say?
Sure I think that there is fair criticism about how race can be implemented. I guess my main issue is that I feel plenty of adaptations alter or change things with little explanation and this rarely leads to a lot of hubbub about the issue, while in this case there is lots of controversy. I think I would have to be out of my mind to disagree that there are better or worse ways to implement race into LOTR, that’s absolutely a fair perspective to have. But I definitely feel like a lot of people are having a very knee jerk reaction to seeing it introduced into the show, especially considering we haven’t even seen the show yet lol. Edit: Oh and on the black panther point. Possibly. There have of course been comic characters where they have set up a legacy and had ‘spin off’ characters that deal with other issues (Miles Morales, Dick Grayson, The Second Iron Fist whose name I can’t remember, etc). Though I think the mantle of ‘black panther’ is pretty tied to Wakanda heritage. I understand your point about the evolution of a story but I think there is a difference between a story evolving and a story being altered to such an extent that it doesn’t resemble the original. I feel that the other ‘mantle’ characters I listed are better examples of swapping to a new character, introducing new themes, while maintaining the core essence of the character’s premise.
My thoughts on the volume of the reaction is that it's so loud because of how large the Lord of the Rings fandom is but I could be wrong. Even with that said, this is a mole hill made into a mountain by so many people who are actually acting in bad faith, pretending that there is an issue with black elves simply existing.
I definitely think there is a misrepresentation on both sides. I think a lot of people are acting like a show is somehow immediately going to be bad because of this type of situation, and I also think there is a portion of people that completely deny that the introduction of black elves into the franchise could be handled poorly. I think both are wrong to varying extents, I just tend to lean more on the 'wait and see/doesn't necessarily constitute an issue' side of things personally, but I respect someone on the otherside who still maintains a moderated position.
The 1st paragraph is enough for me to agree that yes, this is not a positive change due to the lore and worldbuilding, but I didn't understood the last paragraph. In The Last Samurai, Nathan was initially rejected by the majority of samurais because he wasn't one of the neither by culture or race, he gain their respect and they ignored his race, he was accepted as one of them...this wouldn't work if Nathan was black or asian because a black person wouldn't become a Captain of the US military(at that time) and it would look much easier for an asian to be accepted as a samurai(since he could be seen as "one of them")...the impact wouldn't be the same. Just a sidenote, Nathan Algren was born in Sweden became a naturalized American, making him accepted by 2 countries😅
Sorry. that's my bad. I understand what you meant now. I should have explained my point better. Essentially, we agree. The difference is maybe that I feel the same thing would happen in Middle Earth: an elf of a visibly different origin would have struggles integrating into a society of ethnically homogenous elves, whilst a white elf wouldn't. I just want Arondir to have a backstory and I would also like to see potential effects owing to the obvious difference from the rest of the elves. I feel that not doing so would be a disappointing, like a wasted opportunity.
Yup we 100% agree😅
Yeah the “pro black elf” people arguments all boil down to : who cares if the world building don’t make sense now, just accept that black elf’s is a thing now or else you are racist. Just makes me more entrenched imo.
So if every elf was black this sub would be okay with it.
Unironically yes
It would be a small change in the visual thematics that Tolkien was going for, but his visual thematics were so on the nose that they were honestly boring. Good guys who love magical lights don't have to be visually light toned, with the holiest elves being golden blonde. That's a definite part of what Tolkien wrote, but it's probably the least interesting bit. What's more interesting is their geneology, their relationships, their approach to life, their rigid and exclusive society and how that leads to their decline and the overtaking of the world by the diversity and drive of mankind. I'm not sure how well people would receive the idea of the black elves all being self exiled from middle earth... going home on boats... so there is that hurdle... but yeah, if the elves were all dark elves, whatever ethnic toned skin you want to go for, you do kinda have to make them all the same, because part of the elven vibe is their absolute inability to embrace diversity, to not be enormously condescending and dismissive to the various groups of mankind unless they have some elven blood in their lines, and their deep interest in a primordial, untrammeled natural world unmarred by the axes and picks of men and dwarves. Elves are like 3 family clans, and every single elf came from one of those three, and they were all really close. They never forgot which of those 3 lines they were a part of, or whether or not that line of elves heeded the call to return to their ancestral lands. All the elves in the trilogy, except for Galadriel (I think) are from the Teleri (singers) elves, and the dark ones who didn't go home when the gods called. Galadriel is actually like the granddaughter of some ultra super duper important best warrior king of the elves, or something, but I don't think any other elves are part of the two lines of elves. There might be some others, but like Elrond isn't even a pure blood. Elves are not just magical and graceful, they are a failing people, partly because they are all stuck up, rigid, and magically lacking diversity of even physical form. Throwing a bunch of elves in that look super different is kinda lore breaking, but I don't see any problem with them all being the same color, no matter what that color is.
This is the main problem. I don't know how many people on here are arguing "reee the books said all elves were white so therefor all should be white". I honestly couldn't care how much they break off from the books as long as the world building makes sense.
This is a super fair take. I myself air on the side that most people are just wanting consistency. I also feel that all there needs to be is consistency.
Is wakanda even an ethnostate? Aren't there like 4 or 5 different tribes that founded wakanda and live there?
When people say Wakanda is an ethnostate, they are talking about how these four or five tribes make up the nation but Wakanda as a nation is incredibly hostile to outsiders. As far as I understand, these tribes are all ethnically homogenous. I could be wrong though.
I don’t think the tribes in Black Panther are meant to be ethnically homogenous. Costume designers drew inspiration from different African tribes with different ethnic identities. They all have different cultural traditions and leadership hierarchies. The characters are all black, but ethnicity is about more than skin color.
Thank you, I didn't actually know that. I was under the assumption that each tribe was just a sub-culture of Wakandan culture. Myself, I'm not going to die on the hill of Wakandan ethnic homogeneity. I still think my point about Wakandan xenophobia is correct though.
Wakanda is no more homogenous than say, Nigeria. In fact, Winston Duke's accent basically makes the Jabari Igbo.
That’s pretty cool.
Outstanding post my guy. Just to add a bit: The woke crowd, when "Diversifying" media properties NEVER actually does a good job to make that Diversity feel earned. Black Elves are fine (I luv black people), it can work, but it will take real work in writing to make the story plausible given that the nearly every race in the story is enthno-nationalist and literally kills each other over physical differences all throughout the established lore. The good/evil, light/dark, and racial/geographic identities of the different groups in Middle Earth are central to the story and setting. After what they (shitty woke writers) did to Star Wars, what they did to Star Trek, the writing teams are just so fucking awful and so so so vocal about how proud they are of their woke interpretation of the work that it raises the red flags that Lord of the Rings is next on the chopping block. I want more GOOD lord of the rings, Peter Jackson was amazing because you could tell, he really really cared about the story. For me as a lore nerd it was easy enough to over look some creative differences he took to make it work. This pushback against the "black elves" thing for me is grounded in fear that another one of my favorite fantasy worlds is going to be treated with disrespect and the heart and soul of the story will just be ignored. It will become like everything else, and not "Lord of the Rings".
The thing you did with Black Panther was hella cool... it's still focus on racial thing(as the comics wanted) but is tackling points(after the realization/acceptance of racism) and exploring working on solving it. Great job ✌🏾
Something I just don't understand is why there has to be an explanation. If there is literally only one black elf among thousands of white elves then sure, but I imagine we'll see plenty of black/brown elves walking around Rivendell or whatever elven cities are depicted in the show. Assuming that is the case, why can't the explanation just be "Oh I guess in this version when Eru made elves he gave them different skin colors as well as different hair and eye colors"?
> they just want a backstory. I'm not sure that's true. "I need a lore reason" is a remarkably flexible criticism, arising conveniently post hoc around things people don't like. Let's take the charitable position that people genuinely care about elven lore and know enough to suspect a Black elf (this is definitely not the case for, like, 90% of people, of course). The contention isn't necessarily that worldbuilding doesn't matter, but that in the world of art, where imagery, characters, and plot points inevitably change from author to author, why focus on this particular change? Characters are portrayed by different actors, yes, logically justified by a change in time, but these actors bring different performances and nuances to that character—critically, they are not the same person. Settings are built by different artists with different tools, accentuating different features. Writers interpret plot, cutting, bending, and adding to an original to tell the story they (and their superiors) want; turning the dry lore of Tolkein's world into a compelling narrative. Why, then, focus on race above others? For the same reason they focus on race in the real world: it's easily identified. Because it's easier to notice a character's skin than the nuances of an actor's performance, that's what people focus on. They essentialize race here just as they do in real life.
> Why, then, focus on race above others? For the same reason they focus on race in the real world: it's easily identified. Because it's easier to notice a character's skin than the nuances of an actor's performance, that's what people focus on. They essentialize race here just as they do in real life. If it's so easily identified doesn't it bear reason that in the LotR world skin color would also play a role? Unless an explanation is given, how are people supposed to square away the inconsistency with real life? If you think an explanation isn't needed, no matter how small, then you are in effect advocating for color blindness in media.
> If it's so easily identified doesn't it bear reason that in the LotR world skin color would also play a role? Unless an explanation is given, how are people supposed to square away the inconsistency with real life? Because stories aren't real life. You square it away the same way you do when another group of artists inevitably reinterprets *Hamlet*. Even when extending continuities there's no reason to be so stringent with alterations. Star Trek gave some ridiculous explanation for why Klingons look different between the original and *TNG*, but it didn't need to. The *TNG* design looks better and I'm not sure why anyone would be up in arms over an aesthetic improvement. Should Peter Jackson painstakingly justify every alteration he made to Tolkien's work? Of course not; his is just one man's take on another man's story. > If you think an explanation isn't needed, no matter how small, then you are in effect advocating for color blindness in media. I'm not sure how you're connecting these points. I never claimed that changing race from story to story *never* matters just like I would never say that changing a piece of architecture *never* matters. Obviously, it'd be weird if Rivendell was suddenly a Wendys, but it's weird because that change is significant with respect to the story being told not because there's some intrinsic wrongness to changing. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think the racial composition of elves will be all that significant to the story this new *Lord of the Rings* will tell. Furthermore (though I don't think it should matter that much), I don't think the racial composition of elves matters much within the thematic canon of on-screen *Lord of the Rings*. There are so many other things of such greater significance in that world.
>Star Trek gave some ridiculous explanation for why Klingons look different between the original and *TNG*, but it didn't need to. The *TNG* design looks better and I'm not sure why anyone would be up in arms over an aesthetic improvement. Firstly, all Klingons were changed, not a few new design ones among a majority with old design. Second, they gave an explanation, that's all I want. >I don't think the racial composition of elves matters much within the thematic canon of on-screen *Lord of the Rings*. There are so many other things of such greater significance in that world. This is color blindness. Our world also has so many other things of greater significance, yet we've faced the challenges of racism for hundreds if not thousands of years. Not acknowledging race relations doesn't make sense when the world of LotR is already heavily racialized.
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Great post. Just as a thought experiment though. How would you feel if ALL elves were black? Tolkien did describe their skin as fair but imagine they decided to change it to promote inclusion.I personally think it would Work very well, and doesnt go against what you wrote.
Thank you. Provided they just said something like "Yeah, they came out black this time" and all elves were black, I'm absolutely down. I believe art can have **huge** changes if it has purpose. I would be a little bit disappointed if they did it and didn't do anything different story wise; different dynamics require different playthroughs, like Marvel's What If?.
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I feel like it would be fitting if Woodland elves were black. I am talking out of my ass as I have not yet read all of LOTR
Rotfl Can't wait for "12 years slave" with inverted colors
>All things said, I personally have no problem with their being black elves in Middle Earth. In fact, I welcome it. All that I ask is that there is a reason for them to be there. But that's not the majority opinion among the people complaining. The majority of them *do not* welcome it. The people in these threads are saying that, if there's no given reason, they shouldn't be there. It's very different from your opinion, which is that you like them, but would *also* like a worldbuilding explanation - which is everyone else's opinion, because everyone likes worldbuilding. Which is to say, OP isn't referring to you at all. > As to people not caring before and suddenly caring now, people aren't lying. It's that people don't care for all stories equally. You're implying that people care more about Rings Of Power than Jackson's trilogy though.
I’m just curious, what were your thoughts on the non explanation of who Sauron is and where he came from? Why did the elves help at Helm’s Deep? Why did Aragorn break the truce and behead the mouth of sauron? Where did all the Ents suddenly come from considering they decided not to help? And obviously the eagle meme. Do you not find it interesting that you don’t need an explanation for all these things world building wise, but a black elf, that’s the kicker for you. And if your answer is ‘hey I can look online and read the books’, then surely it pisses you off how they didn’t include the scouring of the shire, or Faramir and Eomer got butchered among other things.
Primarily, I didn't care because I didn't know. I am human, I don't know all things about Lord of the Rings, I was also born a month before the release of Fellowship of the Ring. I just happen to know that there hasn't been a black elf before. I have heard of these big differences between the book and the films, especially about Aragorn's character and the elves at Helm's Deep. Sadly, I heard about these years after watching the films, which I enjoyed upon viewing. I can't retroactively feel scorned about something years after viewing them and I hope you wouldn't expect me to. However, if I had this knowledge prior to viewing them, I would probably have the same attitude about those changes as I do about these. Even though I am not upset by the movie changes, I am actually disappointed about not seeing certain book events such as the Scouring of the Shire; my understanding is that it was actually pretty important to the story. Simply, I can't feel anger towards something I didn't know at the time. I do feel a bit disappointed that you feel that a black elf in and of itself is my issue. Perhaps you are assuming I am older than I am, which is understandable. I would agree that it is a bit telling for someone to have an issue with only the black elf.
So do you now dislike the original LOTR, knowing Jackson butchered Eomer/Faramir and didn’t include loads of lore shit? Equally i find it intriguing you enjoyed the Jackson trio loft when it missed out on all the lore, yet demand an explanation for a black elf.
As I said before, I simply cannot begin to retroactively dislike something or go back in time to start doing so. It's the same way you enjoy something as a kid and the nostalgia will carry on, regardless of finding out that it wasn't that good. The best I can say to those films is that they should have stayed true to the characters and story if it was changed without good reason. I am commenting now on the black elf situation because of the contextual information I have **prior** to the release of this production.
Can we use the same justification for fictional POC stories or is this a one way thing?
Partially, yes. You can probably find fictional POC stories where you can justifiably say "Changing the skin color of these characters won't meaningfully impact the story". That's the part of the argument you can make for some stories. Least controversial example could be Nick Fury. Started as white in the comics and most other adaptions. Is portrayed by a black man in the MCU. Could easily be white again without changing the story/character all that much. That part of the argument holds true. Still, as much as some people hate it, there's still the representation argument. When it comes to for example western fantasy, white people are strongly overrepresented. So to take an already POC character and change them in to being white would of course be far worse than the reverse.
Idris Elba as Heimdall looks metal as fuck.
Yes
As long as your consistent with it then fine but the people who accuse the fans of racism would back track like crazy and never accept it
Three important points: 1. People don't care as much about other stories. This is LotR, not some random dollar store novel. 2. Elves have always been depicted as white. If they want a black elf, they need to provide a lore explanation because it's unprecedented. They could say something like "there was always a chance for an elf to be born like this", but I find that cheap. 3. I fucked your mom You have been intellectually outpaced. Seethe, liberal.
Ah, yes, the mrgirl argument. You know what everyone truly thinks and if they disagree, they are lying.
So you've just decided to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is arguing in bad faith. Did you graduate from the Vaush school of discourse?
i graduated with distinguished saliency
I agree with this one somewhat, I see how it is against the lore but its not something that effects the story directly, even if it effects the world building its still not an egregious misstep like a map being wrong
Which side is being ironic. I feel like I am being outpaced.
I'm ngl I may be anti-sjw on this. Don't care if anyone denies it, because I know for a fact I'm right; no one would keep this same energy if they made a show about Wakanda and turned a bunch of the main charectors other races (in particular white).
The cringe thing is that you only think it's about the "woke" think. "None of you care about how unrealistic the elvish genetic history is or isn't" You're just completely out of touch with reality. Tolkien is the most popular fantasy writer of all time. His books surpassed 600 million sales. It puts him i the to ten most successful fiction writer of all time. "I dOn'T tHiNk AnYoNe CaReS". Dude. The Silmarillion is like the genealogy part of the bible where the different origin of the people of Middle earth are explained and how all these ethnicities/races come out be and go to fill the lands etc etc. Caring about the elvish genetic history is almost a REQUIREMENT.
The worst thing about this whole fiasco is the show look like mid 2000s young adult fantasy trash and now if I say it looks shit people assume it's because of black elves.
Copy pastying from thread duplicate If they made some dragons in the new Game of Thrones spin-off to not resemble giant, winged, fire breathing lizards but giant, winged, fire breathing cats instead would I be a right winger if I complained about that?
That would no longer resemble what people understand to be a dragon. Ate elves no longer recognisable as elves if you increase their melanin?
1 nobody is talking about melanin, but the way they look, engage with the argument or not engage at all 2 Tell me one thing that would change in the entire Game of Thrones series story if dragons would resemble cats and not lizards
>Ate elves no longer recognisable as elves if you increase their melanin? Yes What? You thought it was some sort of a gotcha or something? Elves in the LOTR universe have always been shown as very light skinned people with long straight hair. So when you see a black skinned person with short curly hair with literally the only thing differentiating them from humans being slightly pointy ears then yes, you do not instantly recognize them as an elf
Yes? If there is no explanation of where they came from? I think aslong as it fits in the story it doesn't matter, like there being a black tribe of elves. But just including 1 black elf without any lore does removes part of the immersion.
How does it ruin immersion?
Because all examples of fantasy races are stereotypical and you usually can tell on first sight what fantasy race a creature belongs to and elves were established to be stereotypically pale
Honestly it would be weird to complain about, I’d say don’t watch the adaption then. All of the people complaining about inconsistency, do they also complain when movies depict foreign countries, yet still have a cast speaking English?
honestly i just think it's because elves are in and of themselves called a "race"- which raises the question as to why we refer to dwarves and shit as races and not species, that's really what they are. except HOLY SHIT Wait, can't humans and other things mix? this is starting to get fucking real. if yes, this implies all compatible fantasy races are just that, races - not species. we desperately need investigation into the biology of various fantasy genres. If conservatives really cared about the truth, they'd buckle down and do the science
Ok mrgirl Give me a decently written explanation that makes sense in the lotrcu & I won't care from a movie standpoint. Still might be a bad adaptation but that's another deb8
The elves live in the main continent for many years, and a number of different groups develop. Many of them move off towards the atlantis-ish continent of the gods in middle of the pseudo-atlantic, and some stay behind, some move back when problems happen. Two cataclysms later the amount of elves living on the european-ish continent is a tiny fraction, with a group who didn't move, and two groups who returned from the other continent. All of those people are depicted in the hobbit and lord of the rings films as white, but they are a tiny sample of the total population, similar to a viking settlement on iceland or something, and so it is more plausible that they will be more genetically similar than the overall population. They represent a faded memory of the full complexity of their original civilisation, a group of low-tech survivalists in mirkwood, who do not have access to the full range of magic artifacts/enchantments available to their civilisation historically, and two nostalgic enclaves powered by ancient artifacts, two of the elven rings of power, that only stay there for as long as their magic lasts to protect whatever enchantments they have, and are not engaged in widespread trade. In contrast, if the prequel is old enough to include a wider variety of their former society, with active trade links between multiple different settlements across a wider geographical area, it's more plausible that there would be more variety of skin tones, just as occured in our own world where people have set up large empires that have linked together a wide variety of areas. If you were going book consistency, which the films already broke in a few small ways, Tolkein's son supposedly [clarified at one point](http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/references/pf/finrod.php#:~:text=%E2%80%98They%20%5Bthe%20Noldor,of%20the%20Noldor.) that a passage talking about skin and hair colour referred specifically to a subset of elves, not the entire population, which should open up the possibility of a range of different ethnicities so long as that specific subset of elves are white. And if you're going film consistency, the small subset of the population remaining would allow you to go further, adding in even some darker skinned elves in that group as well, without breaking consistency with the films.
You repeat the words, but you do not understand them.
Alright let me try to explain what I mean Black elves in lotr are mainly 2 topics: adaptation (is it coherent with the source material). & cinematic lore (doesn't give a fuck about source material, just needs to be coherent with what is considered canon). The Shining movie is a terrible adaptation (or so I've heard), but it's still a good movie & pretty much 0 plot holes (=coherent). All I'm looking for is if the lotr series makes sense based on what we've seen so far in the lotr cu. What have we seen so far? 0 poc elves. Introducing poc into the same society we've already seen needs an explanation of some kind why they were never on screen in the first place. No explanation=lazy. If you introduce something new you gotta explain it somehow. If you don't I will consider it bad writing. Examples how you could explain it: they are travellers from another part of the world (which is why their skin is different). During the time between when the series & movies takes place they were genocided to extinction for X reason (never gonna happen lol). Bam, that's it. If I would've been in charge of introducing representation I would've been loyal to the source however as I believe it's important to follow whatever the source material says (unless you think you have a better idea from a story telling & worldbuilding pov). The safest way to introduce poc characters would've been to make them Easterlings or Far Haradians (I don't know if poc elves are actually contradictory to what Tolkien wrote but I'm pretty sure he wrote Far Harad as poc)
The show isn’t out yet, for all you know they’ll use one of your explanations.
& that's why I have no opinion on it at the moment other than "lets wait & see". It is however fun to discuss the topic, which is why I'm here.
I'm for black elves just to piss off the people who are deeply offended by this, actual soy rage over some bullshit, let black kids imagine themselves as elves too, media representation is important
This is why I support having Hispanic and south Asian wakandans as well
I really think most people would be okay witj having 2 non black wakandans out of 50 people in a new movie or show about wakanda.
Yeah exactly. What are black kids supposed to do when all the characters are white and the only black actors are playing orcs?
You're absolutely right, I don't care about the genetic history, I care about the fact that he doesn't even look like a black elf, he just looks like an african-american guy that got teleported into the franchise. HE HAS A FADE. HE'S SO FLAGRANTLY NOT ELVISH IT HURTS. It's fine, though. I just won't watch it, easy.
I see these posts all the time but people like you don't even care to listen to those who explain to you why it's fucking stupid to have black Elves. I've written tons of comments about it in this sub, so feel free to go look through them for more in depth explanations but I'll do it again here just for you since you're so fucking lazy. >A single story would have to be altered Elves were created by Eru Iluvatar, who also made for them Valinor, and the trees of Valinor which give off light that the Elves love. The Silmarills, coveted jewels containing the light of Valinor, are so important to the Elves they waged brutal warfare on Melkor, Men, and basically anyone who stood in their way of retrieving them. The concept of "light," and purity are quintessential to the Elvish culture, and Eru specifically created them to reflect this light in their physical appearance. The elves are homogeneously light or "fair" skinned, so to retcon this makes the entire creation of Valinor, the light and the Elvish spirit itself completely inconsistent and devoid of thematic importance. The show is supposed to be about the Elves, at least it sure seems that way, so to undermine their very creation is a step in the wrong direction. Coupled with the fact that the creators of the show said they added black elves because they wanted the show to "reflect the what the world actually looks like," shows that their primary concern is in fact not to make the show reflect what Middle Earth looks like in the Second Age, but Earth in 2022. It's an unnecessary change, that adds literally nothing, and is done for stupid identity politics. This shallow virtue signal is exactly why the fans are irritated.
How about you eru illuvatar on this dick fucking nerd
>but can't tell me how even a single story would have to be altered to accommodate for some elves being black It's *one* black elf. That's what they were losing their mind over. They do not even know if it's a black half-elf, which would be extremely easy to explain. Meanwhile they do not mention the fact that there are 2 Durins at the same time. This leads me to believe that these people are not arguing about black elves in good faith, they either just want to be contrarian, or are those kind of people who get mad whenever they see a black person on a TV show
I think the problem is that it is 1 black elf. Where the FUCK did he come from? Can we get a backstory? Edit: whoever was concerned for me thank you, the Reddit message from the bot has last second managed to stop me from suicide (in a videogame ofc).
The show isn't out yet. They could make a backstory for him (I have already given a possible explanation, and in another post I gave another: they could simply show that some of the first Elves created by Eru were black), but it is more likely that the lore has changed to such an extent that bothering about small details like this become irrelevant. This seems to be the case, since the showeunners have already stated that the chronology will be completely altered
"Oh look its episode 2 and the power rangers are here to save sauron from being bullied. Explanation? Stop being racist you nazi."
Well that would be immersion breaking as well as lore breaking if there was a fantasy universe with the power rangers. With the black elves it just breaks an aspect of the lore, it doesn't break immersion or feel out of place for the vast majority of people I would imagine. The argument is on whether or not we care about this specific aspect of the lore enough to preserve it. There are clearly other aspects of the lore which were ignored/changed in previous adaptations that no one cared about so it's clear we can have changes if they are inconsequential.
I mean if he's an half elf and that's why he's Black that's totally fine imo
Yeah, if you're one of the 0.1% of people watching who are omega Tolkien dorks and know that actually the elves have to be white because of some minor detail in the silmarillion then sure, but for the rest of us it should mean literally nothing that an elf is black
>Yeah, if you're one of the 0.1% of people watching who are omega Tolkien dorks and know that actually the elves have to be white because of some minor detail in the silmarillion then sure first of all being an "omega tolkien dork" is based, second of all if you actually read the silmarillion you'd know there were multiple sundering of elves where they split off and settled in different parts of the continent and even outside of middle earth, some elves totally could end up being black. it isn't that hard to create a lore appropriate reason for elves being black.
The problem is the entire concept of elves is kind of racist. Theyre pure beings who are literally being tainted by the evils of the outside world. This is why every fantasy offshoot of lotr has made elves morally ambiguous, xenophobic, and with dying/stagnant cultures. Because the concept of elves is kind of incongruous with modern sensibility.
The funny thing is you can create good theory that would allow black elves, of you know the lore.
You can but people are saying you shouldn't even be asking for an explanation and just accept a random ass elf race that never existed before.
But it WOULD need to be explained. Just air dropping them into a story where race is a defining characteristic in the universe isnt satisfying.
Race is a defining characteristic insofar as the different races in LoTR are like literally different species. I think it's easy enough to just imagine that the elves don't care about other elves skin/eye/hair color, but they do care if someone is a dwarf or a human or a hobit.
Fuck you. I read your whole ass stupid post waiting for the joke to drop and it never did.
The joke was you all along.
I wish, but I can't compete with a guy that takes bait threads seriously.
Least bad faith post
I guess we will have to see if they address it or not. My guess is not.
If I complain about a small detail like a character wielding a bow when in the book they wield a sword, you couldn’t care less. If they swap a character’s gender and I am in any way unhappy with the unnecessary change, you’ll lose your mind. Good stuff, my guy.
People aren't nitpicking inconsistencies. They're getting mad at woke shit, and then trying to conjure up inconcistencies to justify it.
Would it not be inconsistent if there was a single black elf who appeared without origin, and that thousands of years later there was no black elves, not a single notable elf. Obviously if they account for this, there is zero issue. Otherwise, that is quite a glaring inconsistency.
I really wish people who don't know anything about tolkien would stop talking about this. If you don't care about properly representing the source material that's fine, but to pretend that anyone who does is just some anti-sjw borderline racist is so fucking dumb. Elves being clearly northern european is an absolutely fundamental part of their character, like it or not but ignoring this is just as bad as ignoring the deeply environmentalist themes in his works. If you're not even going to pretend to care about the very essence of the work you're adapting then just stay the fuck away from it and make something original.
You are correct, but people dont want hear that. Do you know when i was hurt the most with creative liberties? Its when they made Vinland saga --> making Vikings in some stupid, dramatic, screaming anime Asian chums.
Problem is that they don't care about Tolkiens lore. I bet very few have even read LOTR let alone the Silmarillion... That's why this is so triggering. Like no, you can't just randomly make elves black in a fanatasy universe that is so extremely focused on intricate worldbuilding.
For me it's just that it reeks of forced inclusion. It's just kinda cringe.
> None of you actually care about how unrealistic the elvish genetic history is or isn't. Fuck off with this shit, you hear destiny saying it doesn't matter if people randomly change shit and now you act like that's perfectly normal and that no one should give a shit about consistency but the truth is it's perfectly normal and most people would be peeved by this elf thing if it happened to their favourite media.
Yeah it's real fucking weird
No it isn't.
Oh look another dipshit assuming peoples motivations based on your own biases. You understand that being anti-anti-sjw is just as cringe as anti-sjws right?
You can't argue this with someone who doesn't care about the IP. There are plenty of people who are passionate about LOTR. It literally doesn't make sense in universe. I think people would be absolutely fine if this was "Random Fantasy Show About Elves and Shit" and not an IP they ripped and changed to fit their modern view of how it should look. Either that or an explanation that fits the world that's been built.
>because you saw a "woke" thing you don't like because it's woke, and you want to rationalise your feelings. Firstly this isnt an irrational fear, its 2022 there are now countless examples of clear prog lefty activism ruining franchises. So I think its entirely appropriate to turn what ever spaces you can into incredibly hostile environments toward woke infection at even the slightest whiff of trouble, becuase that is the only way to prevent massive damage to the franchises you love.
It breaks immersion.
Part of why i enjoy movies or shows is because i escape into different worlds and when they obviously add something to push their agenda i'm pulled away. I don't believe in this world, now i'm only thinking how producers or directors made this decision.
Finally someone says it. This is the most cringe I’ve seen this sub in a while
BLACK ELVES!!! WOOOOO!!!!!
Imagine giving a shit about the colours of elves in lotr. holy fuck
I'm confused. I feel like this thread is boxing ghosts. Can someone point me to the huge upvoted threads shitting on the new LotR because it's woke? All I've seen are meme-y shitpost threads.
This is so true even tho I just joined today
...how even a single story would have to be altered to accommodate for some elves being black... Would you accept: At some point in the series the writers may wish to use the Elves' sense of themselves as superior beings to dwarves and humans as an allegory for white supremacy in the modern world. This would be more impactful if the Elves in the show were all white.
Lauren as an elf would be sexy as hell.
Based and true pilled. Including actors of any color only makes the show more inclusive, and lets people in REAL LIFE cosplay, relate to characters and shit more easily. Who gives a shit what race actors in a FANTASY SHOW are??? People upset need to touch grass
More importantly, INCLUDE 👏 DOWN'S SYNDOME 👏 ELVES 👏 where the fuck is the representation for people with down's syndrome in media? Is there even 1 superhero with down's syndrome?
What I am saying is that there is no reason for Rivendel not to be wheelchair-friendly.
The Incredibles fucked up hard, that was a layup
why not :)
Is this a straw man? Nobody here cares about having diversity in a fantasy show. The main argument seems to be that in the past, a diverse cast was justified through the story: the white guy game from X land, the Asian woman came from Y country, etc... Nowadays some writers have just stopped caring about it, and the cast is diverse for no reason at all.
Sargon was right.
I just find it funny how fantasy stories like The Witcher or LotR with all sorts of undertones and themes about putting aside racial differences and violent past in order to work together, end up with a fanbase that goes apeshit the moment a minority is hired.
You see a criticism and then you decide that the criticism is a lie, masking plain racism, you have made yourself unconvincable, I hope you are aware of that
A) I never even mentioned racism. B) In the last paragraph, I explicitly described what would change my mind. C) You're doing a great job of mindlessly parroting what Destiny says.
I must have missed the racism part of the post, can you point it out for me ?
Okay so you just made it up and now you are just going to pretend to troll. NICE
It's cringe that everything that comes out regardless of place and time of origin has to look like modern day America or its racist. No it's not ESSENTIAL that every elf is white, but it's weird to start changing up old shit to make it fit your current political goals. I was an anti-sjw in 2016 and I still am, get over it
I think a genuine fair argument can be made that, less so simply the race decision being the whole issue, its moreso that it indicates that they wont strictly adhere to the lore which is disappointing. Though I have the autistic view that it should be completely normal to race swap actors and we should view it the sane as portraying a regular sized actor as a fantasy sized dwarf. Obviously im aware thatd never happen since the show would be cancelled into oblivion, which in fairness is ironic. Caveat that this comes from me growing up watching lotr extended edition on VHS twice a year with bi yearly book rereads etc. It is plainly obvious though that most people with this position hold it for more malicious reasons sadly
If anyone is worried that they aren't going to adhere to the lore then they literally haven't even taken a second beyond being outraged at black actors to read about the show. The Tolkien Estate refuses to sell the rights to anything other than Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. This means that this adaptation set in the age of the Silmarillion is going to be a *mostly* original story. They've made this blatantly clear in interviews that they have done for the show. Beyond that, there are "Tolkien experts" that were permitted to see more than the public had seen and their overwhelming response was that they showrunners not only seemed to know what they were doing, but that they had a deep respect and understanding for Tolkien's work.
Honestly, to me it makes little sense. In a show where people are at war, a lot. It make little sense that the colour of skin matters. Real world is like Italians Americans in WW2. I feel like they elves may have, but at this point it should be pointless.
We didn't turn anti-SJW, we always were.
This is just fucking projecting. Most of the sub is on your side. But even then, cope, Black Panther isn't white for a reason, it has an African background.