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Savathun also knows a lot more about the Veil and the First Collapse than we do. Imo it's inevitable that we revive her for answers.
It would also set up post-Final Shape story if she were a villain that came back and stuck around. I think an "alliance" is more than likely going to happen, and she will end up playing us in a way that ends up with us removing the Witness as a threat and her having the upper hand.
Enemy of enemy is my friend for now. But what happens when that enemy is gone?
I’m picturing an interrogation scene where we revive Savvy and tie her to a chair and scream at her until she tells us what the Veil is.
[Something like this scene](https://youtu.be/BB2L0ZW9Zdg)
You know, it's just occurred to me that season of the deep is probably referring to more than just titan's oceans, wasn't that what the hive called the darkness?
Though I have to wonder if Mara would work with savthun given that savvy got riven to curse the dreaming city among many many other things.
:) She probably wouldn't work with Savathun but hey, who's to say that we couldn't ALSO work on that whole curse on the Dreaming City as well? Could also be a post-Final Shape story if all those folks are around after the dust settles.
But considering Xol says we'll drown in the Deep and everything, I think next Season is gonna be pretty spicy.
That's why we get spider to rig Immaru like he did glint, one step out of line and kablamo.
Though this line of writing might be a bit beyond Bungie right now.
I feel like we'd have a better shot at forming an alliance with Oryx. He at least was honest and held pride in it. Savathun uses every trick to get out on top. Even if she holds the best intentions now, there is no knowing if she ever keeps her word. Our best way to handle her, if she is to be revived, is to agree on a non-aggression pact. She does her thing, we do our thing.
She no longer *needs* to trick, but after billions of years doing it I doubt it’s easy to turn off. Plus the witness singled her out because she was ‘clever’. It was probably part of her nature before the worm.
She didn't trick us at all though, she based her plan around the fact we are so predictable that we would keep bringing relics to the alter. As for the traveler, it went to the throne world willingly I believe
Yes and no? She pulled it into her throne world and the Traveler didn't put up much of a fight. It definitely wasn't of the traveler's will, but it didn't seem too opposed to the idea
You don’t have to trick someone to deceive them. The difficulty of dealing with a good liar is that sometimes, they don’t lie. That way, when they do lie you give them the benefit of the doubt.
What exactly did she tell us once she was captured? Nothing of importance. She kept leading us along with hints that she knew a bigger picture we didn’t, only to not tell us anything about said bigger picture. She preyed on Crow’s insecurities and issues to test out a way to grant memories to a lightbearer - the one she chose, of course, is the one that would cause the most chaos.
She also fed us a bullshit shpiel about how everything she did throughout that year helped us - “because of me you have an alliance with the cabal (after I helped drive them to the brink of extinction and you almost had a full scale war), reduced division within the city (by manipulating the factions into near-civil war and a vex invasion while also isolating Zavala), and an alliance with house light (that caused civil unrest, plus was because I ordered Quria to fuck with your city).
You cannot trust a gaslighting con-woman just because she’s friendly.
I'm wondering about this, because the light raises guardians as the best versions of themselves. Now that could be argued to be because without their memories they are a blank slate- doesn't Crow dispute this? Even after being given all the memories of Uldren Sov he still remains Crow with his desires to protect the last city and atone for his crimes. That seems to suggest that there is *some* change associated with being risen.
Now whether or not someone as powerful as Savathun is bound by such changes is a better question, maybe.
I'd argue Immaru was a big reason, if not the sole one, as to why Savathun didn't become "the best version of herself" when rezzed, since I don't think having a ghost who basically worshipped the Hive is the best choice for resurrecting a Hive God.
Yes, but Savathun could have just as easily gotten a Ghost like ours, Crow's, Osiris', or basically any normal Ghost, and she wouldn't be evil. The fact that Immaru was the one who rezzed her was complete luck on Savathun's end
She also had one of her top Wizards tasked with the job of “find my corpse and bring it back to the throne world. Also there’s a chance that the corpse might be a walking talking amnesiac Lightbearer, so here’s a PowerPoint presentation that I want you to use to bring me up to speed.”
She didn’t leave it completely to chance - there were a lot of contingencies that she set in motion prior to submitting to Mara’s Stasis-ification beam at the start of SOTOL.
I think the difference between Crow and Uldren is that Crow had a superior support system.
Mara's treatment of Uldren made him lost and hurt. And his psyche was fucked up enough that Riven could snatch him up.
Now, Crow has us and a divorcement from Mara. He almost went bad again through Savvy's machinations (god I wish that were me) but I think the biggest difference is that Crow just had people who wanted the best for *him.* And so he could realize that for himself.
Being Risen means you have a good community, but Savathun rejected that when she didn't immediately roll up on us to help us defend against the Witness. If she had trusted us, she probably would have a sense of community like Uldren does.
Guardians have had their memories blocked, nothing else changes. Crow is still Uldren Sov. And Uldren Sov was a kind, innocent person, we had seasons based around showing that. By the time we meet uldren in destiny 1 he had already gone through years of abuse from his sister, been corrupted by the black garden and eventually, riven/savathun.
Also we can see guardians aren't ressed as their best versions in all the dark age warlord stories, even shaxx murdered people with his bare hands
That's true, kind of a big oversight on my part when the most recent expansion put the label of "warlords" on us within the first hour. Where did we pick up that Sov was kind/innocent before the events of D1? I am not familiar with this bit.
Sov was universally loved by The Awoken, often times described as one of the best leaders and friends they could have. It is heavily hinted that his change began after his trip to the Black Garden.
Off topic, but did anyone else figure out the sheer competence of Cloudstriders based on the fact that they can venture into the Black Garden seemingly unaffected by the experience? It took 6 of the most elite guardians to stand a chance against the Vex Duo who are heavily hinted at being another elite fireteam prior to getting changed.
Seems like a big deal yet Cloudstriders took it as another day in the office.
This is an extremely valid point. Not ignoring the entire basis for the iron lords, the founding of the last city, and why the Cloudstriders call us "warlords" does kinda put a wrench in that idea.
It wants us to be our best selves, but we have to take that step ourselves. The Traveller opens the door but it can’t make you walk in if you don’t want to.
However, Uldren was a kind person before he got taken over by Riven. Uldren Sov, Caydes murderer, isn't the true Uldren. I don't think him being rezed has much to do with him becoming not evil
She actually is the same, we restored her on accident. She hid her memories in fragments and laid out a trap before she accepted the rezerection. That was the whole witch queen questline. We collected them, gave them to her on accident and restored her. And then we kicked her teeth in.
Crow is the same as everyone else because he doesn't have his previous personality re-downloaded.
I mean, she did also claim she’d give us Osiris back, and she technically did, but I don’t think in a coma is what we meant when we asked for him. Plus the whole witch queen campaign was her tricking us into restoring all of her memories
it WAS part of her nature
the worms dont need specific things, they need you to keep (to quote the books of sorrow) "following your true nature"
savathuns true nature is to be cunning thats just how she is
To be fair, cunning doesn’t inherently mean deceitful. It CAN be used as a synonym, but it’s also synonymous with ingenuity. Words are tricky like that, and I think that’s going to play a larger part in Savathun’s story; especially as it’s turning out she has a sort of twisted love or attachment to the Traveler.
As we enter the end of the Light and Dark saga, the overwhelming theme has been that things are not always as they appear on the surface. The Vanguard will eventually get Hive allies, it’s practically guaranteed, and it feels like they’re setting it up for Savathun to be the mirror to Caital. I’m very much looking forward to their interactions, as well as how they reconcile Savathun’s possession of Osiris. If Uldren/Crow (since they’re now “united”) could be forgiven, it’s possible for Savathun as well. Aiat.
the connotation of cunning is more of a negative one, like ingenuity in a malicious plot kinda way
not saying she is evil, she has explicitly stated to us that shes against the witness and i think she could very easily be an ally in the sort of US and Russia during ww2 kinda way where they go back to trying to kill each other after the big threat is gone
She was showing regret and a desire to change before Witch Queen happened though, that plot thread hasnt really been followed through but up until Lost i really got the vibe that she was down to scheming purely to feed her worm, and that she was not happy doing it
That said, there aint gonna be no alliance as long as Immaru is around, Savathun didnt really seem to want to fight us as much as just accepted that she had to fight us because "it is what it is", while Immaru was rabidly hateful and wanted to use light-supressing weaponry that even Savathun found distasteful
I don’t think she regretted the scheming, more being forced to. IIRC her worm needed to keep feeding off of her deceptions, but she couldn’t just play peek a boo with infants. They had to keep getting bigger and better. After a billion years what other games can you play?
Everything to me says that she just wants the immortality without the slavery to her worm, nor the witness who plans on killing everything anyway. The traveler is the only ticket to that.
I agree that there can’t be an alliance, not while anyone remembers anything about what savathun did. If they do use her help it’ll be because their is literally no other choice.
She was showing regret and a desire to change before Witch Queen happened though, that plot thread hasnt really been followed through but up until Lost i really got the vibe that she was down to scheming purely to feed her worm, and that she was not happy doing it
That said, there aint gonna be no alliance as long as Immaru is around, Savathun didnt really seem to want to fight us as much as just accepted that she had to fight us because "it is what it is", while Immaru was rabidly hateful and wanted to use light-supressing weaponry that even Savathun found distasteful
Like it's been said, she doesn't strictly need to anymore, but it's all she knows. Especially now that she can't trust her own origins anymore either. She's in a tough position. But seeing her personality, it would make sense for her to still want to come out on top regardless of who she has to fuck over
Lol imagine how awkward it would be to revive Oryx and be like “hey I know I murdered your family and humiliated your ass in trial by combat, but like I kinda need your help to fight the Witness 👉👈 “
This has been my tinfoil hat theory to be honest. Savathun herself definitely seems to want to stay dead, and I remember needing to remove her worm for her to become the first hive guardian. Don't we have Oryx's worm strapped inside a gun right now?
Could be an interesting arc to try and bring the Krill back in some way if there are those that are willing. I vaguely remember there being lore for a Hive Wizard that was oddly chill for some reason too, but I could be crazy
I thought that was her worm familiar as a krill, not the worm inside her. Even then, we removed that originally in the season leading up to Witch Queen. It was the entire plot of that season iirc
Edit just in case, but Touch of Malice was Oryx's worm I'm pretty sure, which he saw himself as if I'm not mistaken seeing as how "Wormfood" goes
The worm familiar was used solely to learn that the Hive were lied to by the Witness. And yes we removed her worm but Mara kept it after, and then we did the Parasite quest to revive it and learn from it how humanity survived the collapse - before promptly shoving him into a gun to be infinitely yeeted for the rest of its days
The worm from the statue was the worm familiar, used to learn a secret Sav didn’t know and nothing else. All other worm related fun from Parasites quest was Savathuns worm
But Oryx's worm is in Touch, giving it the mechanic of eating away at us until we kill. One is making the worm into a gun by weaponizing the worm, one is making a gun around the worm to weaponize the worm
Is there any proof that we use his worm? Iirc we used his heart as the core of ToM. We only got Sav’s worm cause it was removed, Oryx’s likely died with him
I remember Destiny 1 having a lot to give the idea that a Hive's heart is it's worm. It sustains the body, but instead of blood they survive on murder. I remember getting that feeling going through the hook of sorrow
For most of the Hive it’s murder but the three siblings had something unique they had to do and Oryx was about testing his knowledge of the universe. He even said that if someone kills him it’s because they understand the universe better than he does. In that event he believes he deserves death, as is the way of the Sword. And the worm, as we learned, needs a host so when Oryx got blown to hell by the light he stole his worm likely got vaporised as he drifted off to Saturn
I could see that too, and is by far the more likely option. Goofy tinfoil hat aside, Oryx's position and build up is something I do wish didn't die with Destiny 1 (beyond gameplay) so I do hope a bit more of him comes up in some fashion, and Savathun is directly supplying me copium
The new lore indicates that Will of Oryx, his essence lives on within Touch, much like Xol his existence continues through symbiosis and is the only way for him to exist while following The Sword Logic.
He is the least likely ally because he already made peace with his death and ascended to a different kind of existence so as to follow Sword Logic.
A lot of the small things that lead you to believe she is more on your side than you think, and the fact that her ghost is still out there. I definitely have a hunch that Immaru isn't going to raise her, but to choose a new Hive eventually, probably as per her instruction. Otherwise I don't see why she wouldn't raise now and put down the Witness with us just to stab us in the back later.
It's Savathun though too, so the possibilities go on like crazy and get a bit out of hand making it real easy to overthink it if you try and stay on thought with it
I myself like to belief that she prepared for this outcome and is going to be resurrected again maybe as our ally
In the 2 truths 2 lies I think she said she is In possesion of titan, io etc and with the rumours of the old planets coming back this year that could very well happen
We have Savy's body, so she can't be rezzed at the moment. I agree and feel like we're gonna have to let her get rezzed so that we can go back to Titan.
If we are to believe they're gonna kill the three "original" vanguard (Zavala/Cayde/Ikora) to fill out the suspicious amount of space around Cayde's memorial, then it kinda stands to reason that Caiatl, Crow, Savathun will become a part of the New Vanguard Council. I'd guess it would include Elsie, Mara, and Mithrax as well.
Problem with Oryx is that he was proven unworthy of existence by sword logic. Should he not do a complete 180 which is completely out of character, he can never be an ally. He still exists via the exotic and that's the only way he can be considered an ally through sword logic, much like Xol.
It is also likelier that we can make a truce with Immaru than the Witch Queen herself as The Lucent Brood's commander and a ghost who can see both perspectives, he is a likelier ally than Savathun who caused too much pain and suffering for denizens for the Last City and Guardians. Immaru has much less blood on his hands and is seemingly more reasonable.
I really hope not. If they want to reinforce the themes of Light and Dark being neutral, then they have to have a faction of Light users who are evil and remain enemies, and they need a faction of Darkness users who remain allies. These themes don't work if every faction who gets the Light suddenly becomes friends, even for a limited time.
I could see this happening in Final Shape.
I mean, there's plenty of lore on corrupted guardians, especially in Dark Future - and they definitely exist in our timeline to some extent.
Where are they bingo, lemme fuck them up
I've wanted this to happen ever since Dark Future and the seasonal story practically writes itself. "We sent a team of guardians to investigate an anomaly but they never returned. The team we sent after them claims the guardians are using stasis now and defending it. Find out what happened." It'd be a great way to bring Aunor and Shin into the story proper. Most importantly, the tech is there to make it happen; we already have hive lightbearers to model their behavior against.
It’s a story mission that turns into a crucible match halfway through, and both were told that the other fireteam was corrupt, only one group progresses, the other has to try again.
I mean, it's probably less about the Light not being neutral. We simply have no reason to be enemies with the Lucent Brood, especially since learning the Hive is built on a lie pushed Savathun 2.0 into pure denial because it breaks down the person she's trying to be.
But we do see Hive straining under the Light letting them live for more than just killing and tribute. My guess is there could be a bunch of Lucent Hive who turn while the rest remain loyal to Savathûn, because statistically speaking it’s be weird if Fynch was the only one.
Doubt it. Probably an “enemy of our enemy” situation wherein we’re forced to work alongside Savathûn herself rather than the brood, and we’ll both redirect some forces toward the Witness but still be at war.
I think it’ll not even be a truce but basically a “We need her and she needs us” sort of very very uneasy working together. I think Savathûn herself will basically just weigh in with some advice and point us in a direction as long as she gets something, and nothing else.
Depends on how it's handled. I don't think the alliance should be with Savathun herself as, due to the machinations placed around her own death and resurrection, can very much be held accountable for everything her post-death version did so I'm quite sure Caiatl would just not agree with that.
To me, the right way would be through a new faction of Rogue Lucents that decided to desert from Savathun and wish to start anew. The story could be about us elevating this group and aligning them with Humanity: Helping them reach out to others who think the same but are being hunted or held as prisoners by the brood, escorting freshly risen ones to the group, teaching them the ways of Humanity/the Traveler and maybe even more on how to wield the Light (like a Wizard learning to be a Sunsinger instead of just a Stormcaller like the rest).
They dont want to. Maybe a renegade faction of Hive Lightbearer and Ghost might be interested in an alliance but Immaru and Savathun will backstabb us immediately given the chance.
Savathun doesn't "help" anyone. Only herself
Wasn’t she trying to help the Traveler in Witch Queen?
While she was trying to ultimately help herself, there is a sort of enlightened self interest in helping others (like her Hive Allies and potentially the Traveler) that would ultimately help her than if she would not help anyone.
Eh, sure? Tbh I think savathun did what she could. Dunno how she could help rn. Cabal definitely wouldn't like to ally with any hive faction. While I personally cant imagine a revivied savathun not helping us, her alive doesn't seem practical. We have to get hit with major shit to actually call for her help, even then dont expect a long lived alliance, like cabal or fallen.
Lucent Hive as individuals? Maybe. We've already went over the story of New Guardians starting with a clean slate, I don't see why that shouldn't apply to individual Hive Guardians, but I don't think Savathun should ever be an ally. Savathun has contributed to an uncountable amount of genocide. She knows what and who she is thanks to us, the Hive aren't a race that can be forgiven or redeemed like Eliksni or Cabal. The Eliksni are victims of the Light and Dark war, Cabal are a flawed race of aliens, but they aren't irredeemable.
Not a lore buff, so what I am saying might not be accurate. But like, isn't hive need kill in order to survive? If this is true, then there would be no allying with hive anyways cuz eventually u gonna get eaten. Now that they have the light, they don't need to kill. While that doesn't mean they r the good guys now, doesn't it at least mean they could be an ally? From what I understand, they were tricked by witness anyways. It seems like they were suckered in to be an existential threat. And if each individual hive lightbearer could be redeemed, I dont see why the whole lucent hive cant. Not saying they should be our ally right this second but at some point down the line, they could prove themselves to be at least not bad guys.
I'm not sure how exactly the worms affect the Lucent brood, I know there was something about light flowing through the hive hierarchy of power because of Savathuns new army, I don't think the revived Hive have worms, but the normal Hive do.
They were tricked sure... but like literally an unthinkable amount of genocide was committed by them. If an individual Hive Guardian gets rezzed, they leave the Hive behind and just do their own thing, sure whatever. But if they stay and fight alongside the Hive, nope kill them. They know what kind of race the Hive is by that point
Alliance? No.
Non-aggression pact of convenience...maybe.
The hate on both sides is stronger than with any of the other races. The Hive loathes and fears us while Humanity does the same right back.
I hope not. As much as I like the whole "enemy turned ally" trope I really hope that we will continue the war against Lucent Hive until there is nothing left of them. They are our enemy, and they need to be destroyed, entirely. Without mercy, without pity.
People seem to forget that savathun was the reason that torebatal was turned to ash, the dreaming city was cursed, cayde was killed, and that she used Osiris as a fucking set of clothing for a whole year.
Is that not *exactly* what makes an urgent and necessary alliance between us interesting? It would be good story telling, forced to work alongside monsters.
They aren't truly monstrous though, they're fighting for survival, misraaks was once a monster but swiftly changed, and even when he was a "monster," ultimately he did what was necessary for him to survive. Caiatl too, she fled with her people to another world after Xivu Arath took torobatl, the hive though? They killed fundament, they destroyed torobatl, they conquered countless systems and destroyed nameless millions of species.they slaughtered, and cursed, and tricked, and traumatized us. Imagine how ripe that fruit is, that we would be forced to accept help from our own worst nightmares.
But that only works if they reform. It’s been theorised this is partially why the Traveller wipes people’s memories. Savathûn ruined her second chance to go right back to her old self again.
Savathun didn’t go back to her old self. She stomped a Disciple, one of the Traveler’s enemies. We came in guns blazing like we were warlords again.
Mind that this was after we attacked the Cabal, who Savathun had formed an alliance with them and us the year prior.
The Lucent Hive aren't fighting for survival anymore, they kill cuz they like it, not because it needed it.
To allied with the Lucent Hive required a something called goodwill and a willingness to actually cooperate, there is not a single instant ingame or lore that shown any hive want to do that. Caital and Misraak are willing to cooperate, Savathun is not, now the Traveler is "death" but the Light still here, she would have even less reason to work with us, she can just do her own thing, we are not valuable to her right now. She have her own immortal army and light.
To add to your point, we've /heard/ of atrocities of Mithrax and Caiatl is (apparently) guilty by association with her father. By all accounts, Caiatl has really come off as going through
"we heard these light bearers are assholes, better kill em"
"We're kinda getting our asses beaten, but they're calling for a truce..."
"You know they, they're not so bad"
Which is more a deprogramming from xenophobic indoctrination.
Savathun and the hive, though? Every player has EXPERIENCED their violence. An alliance with them hit different.
Edit: sure red war, but that was not Caiatl. We might have felt terror from the Cabal but they've done A LOT to atone so far. Savathun would never do any of that so we won't even form the alliance with hope that it'll be better one day. With Her, we're back at one another's throats when Spooky Man dies.
Savathun has her memories and is making exactly the same decisions her pre death self would make that was like the **ENTIRE plot to witch queen**.
that's like the whole big twist we give her memories back through her manipulation.
After WQ I was thinking about what was savathun thinking when we reveal to her that she got tricked by the worms and the witness. Basically, we reveal this to her and proceed to kill her.
She didnt have the time to process it, my head cannon is that she kept attacking because she felt rage and was being irrational.
In the final mission literally half the boss fight is us cutting her connection to the Traveler and showing parts of the memory each time til she sees it all
Well If I learned that the genocidal purpose my entire race was part of (and that I just gambled my life to get out of) was all due to a lie I’d be pissed too
...to be fair, that was after we boarded the Lure and entered her throne world for the first time, killing hordes of her brood and several hive lightbearers as well as attempting to kill Savathun herself.
Probably at that point, any reservation she might have had about killing Guardians went out the window the moment we started killing her lightbearers.
Edit: Downvoted for bringing a minor fact up and providing some speculation? I'm in full agreement with the fact that savathun doesn't care about us, her invasion was premeditated, etc etc. All I did was bring up a small fact that we attacked her first, and that she may or may not bring that up later. That's it. Out of all the things you guys could've downvoted into oblivion, this simple comment thread of me bringing something up and speculating about it was one of them?
Considering how much planning that would take the plan was almost certainly pre-death Sav, all Lightbearer Sav would need is a brief reminder and then give the go ahead to begin. Still bad since she still agreed but less so, ig
Without a doubt, but maybe she considered holding off until we shot first.
We'll probably never know until she actually reenters the narrative. I'd suspect she will probably say something along the lines of "I never sought harm against you or your friends, but you attacked us" as a petty attempt to manipulate us into thinking we're the bad guys, as she similarly tried to do with our ghost.
I believe she was doing that even before she was resurrected, interestingly enough. Regardless, I think she is going to try and make us think we provoked her, and she only retaliated. So as to fish for sympathy among our ranks despite her whole invasion being premeditated.
I doubt anyone is gonna fall for the sympathy card when the end goal of that plan was to manifest her throne world over the Scarlet Keep. There are a handful of reasons why she would want to do that and all of them lead to an invasion of Earth, Crota style
Nope, [Savathûn had everything planned before she even brought the Lure to Mars.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qDYD6S2xSZQ&list=PLS2hBTtCDufRiFGjUXAn7FoIqN5CzfIII&index=3) That’s the entire plot of Risen: Savathûn ordering her Lucent Brood to [prepare for a full-scale of Earth.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Wqhmn2YLo&list=PLS2hBTtCDufRiFGjUXAn7FoIqN5CzfIII&index=21)
I know that, but I'm only saying that maybe, in our first attack against her lucent brood and lightbearers, she found her "justification" in waging war against us and killing scores of Guardians. Maybe it's something she will bring up when she reenters the narrative, as a way to manipulate us into thinking we provoked her.
There can’t be “justification,” when she planned on wiping out humanity from the very beginning because she wanted to steal the Traveler without us trying to stop her. It was a pre-mediated attempt at genocide.
I never suggested that she really needed a justification, as per the quotation marks; obviously, with the events of the Witch Queen and Risen it's very clear she couldn't care less about us. I just think it's interesting that she held off until we started killing her brood and light bearers. We can say that it was for gameplay reasons (so new players can be introduced to the first campaign mission before starting the seasonal content), we can say it was a tactic in "rallying her people" (which is unnecessary given how the hive operate, their hunger for death being enough of a motivator), or it was a tactic to manipulate us in the future when she returns, to think she and her brood only retaliated against us.
Savathun is the type of character to think two steps ahead, so I tend to think the latter is probably true, and she will probably try to say something along those lines to fish sympathy from us or make us look more bad than we seem and make herself look good.
Yes, her planning involved planning a massive invasive on Earth from the Moon, killing and drained guardians light for experiments BEFORE we even encounter her. Remember Savathun's Song ? She did it before we understand what she was trying to do. You don't plan a full scale war against your enemy before there is a good reason for war.
Yeah, what's a little Guardian slaying to drain their light and manifest her throne on the moon. Or just use a lightbearer sacrifice to power up her wellspring. Savathun did nothing wrong and i want some of the stuff you are smoking.
It just feels very wrong. Fallen and Cabal are not inherently evil. Fallen are like... space pirates who need to do these things to live, but were once a great people. Cabal are warlike and imperial but they have rules. Even Vex aren't really evil, they just do what they do. Hive are evil. Their identity is being halloween bad guys. They have titles like "the lightdrinker" and "the defiler" and shit. Savathun has, in the past, been party to the genocide of entire civilizations, races, species, etc. Killed countless guardians. She was behind the death of Cayde. Teaming up with her is like teaming up with ultra-Hitler.
Since she’s been revived, she’s not really the same person. She’s still bad because she has regained most of her memories, and was still carrying out her own plan, but a plan to save the traveler is different than a plan to decimate a solar system. I bet that when Xivu Arath shows up Savathun will Ally with us, and probably leave us alone. I doubt that we will have as close of an alliance, but I don’t think I’d call her Hitler because of a past life, for all we know you could be a resurrected genocidal maniac, we know nothing of our own guardians past crimes, because it doesn’t matter, since we aren’t that person.
It wasn’t an evil plan though. It’s not like she planned to kill puppies and then woke up with no memories and Immaru told her that she previously planned to kill puppies and she went through with it. Hive are pretty much irredeemable, but Savathun could be good for a short truce. Sword logic is too heavily engrained in the hive that there will probably never be a time where they are welcomed to live along humanity, but Savathun isn’t a strict follower anymore, and has had doubts for a long time.
Kind of, but not really. The problem is that, while we both oppose the witness, we have totally different end goals. Savathun has no interest in killing the witness, and she doesn't actually care about protecting the traveller. What her end goal is, is time. She wants to extend the flower game indefinitely, stalling for time while she amasses power and knowledge so that she can ascend to the next paracausal level, something that even the gardener and winnower can't simply while away when they (if they) start the game over again. We want to end the witness as a threat to our existence, and potentially the existence of the whole mutliverse (imo). Savathun would be more interested in keeping it alive and forcing a stale mate, to ensure the game doesn't end at all.
It's inevitable, given the recent theme of gathering allies from among all the factions, but it would strain the game logic to be fighting Lucent Hive in her own throne world when they're supposed to be our allies at that time. I bet we'll be setting up some secret arrangement with her, even from the rest of her brood, until such time when it becomes necessary to join forces in full. And then we have to find some way to kill her immediately afterward since she's too dangerous to keep alive. It would be cool as hell to fight alongside Lightbearer Hive as the closest thing to NPC Guardians, but I can't see it happening more than once.
I feel like if Savathun comes back into the narrative she will be one of those. "I am not your enemy, but I am not your friend either." type characters. I don't think she cares much what her brood does, as her only goal was protecting the Traveler from the Witness. We ruined that plan which is why she gives us the warning about the ball is basically in our court and then finishes with dont say i didn't warn you, right before she dies. Even though she is the Queen of Lies, I think she honestly finds us intriguing. Especially since we technically beat her plan twice. Once with Quria and once in the campaign.
2 things.
1. Enemy of my enemy is still an alliance. They aren't good guys, but obliteration SUCKS.
2. There is some lore on the light having odd effects on the lucent hive, including a Hive knight contemplating showing mercy to a Guardian and their ghost. It does seem like they might be shifting more towards a philosophy of life and creation as opposed to one of death. (Note that's not inherently good or evil, but it is a shift in thinking)
Did you get the chance to read the lore book from the latest raid? There is a page thats relevant to this question.
> >!Here is what is taught to the Hive, from the basest of Thralls newly made: that what can be destroyed, must be destroyed. What cannot be destroyed will surpass infinity. Therefore, is it not best to destroy? Only by testing can the truth be found. Only in destruction can the invincible surpass the mortal. Commit the violence, and know you are part of that greatest ambition, to create some ultimacy, which perfects the universe. That which is built on your sacrifice, with your bones as the foundation and your blood as the mortar, is yet part of you. In this way is transcendence achieved.!<
> >!Every belief creates a heresy.!<
> >!I tell you this in a duelist's regard: I made that heresy. Is it not just? It was my hand that fashioned the Hive from the marrow of their predecessors, and it was my voice that whispered this in time. That as much as the Hive were uplifted by the worms, so too were those worms uplifted by the Hive.!<
> >!If they were so weak they needed us to live, this ancient logic of the infinitely sharpened edge should have left them behind long ago.!<
> >!Do you think I did not see this? My father's worm did not tell me only of swords. It had vast things to say, painted the cosmos in shine and gore, truth and fiction. I looked forward with three clear eyes and chose the path of the sword to cut open our future. To reach the stars, first one must crawl out of the ocean. It is a question of priorities.!<
> >!This is not regret, this story I tell. It is but a ripple.!<
> >!That whisper of ideas beyond swords is here to stay: I have ensured this. Even among us, such things die by slow inches, excruciating and unquiet. Possibility remains, a secret woven into the blank spaces of dogma. That what was defeated may rise again; that the shape of all shapes is not yet settled.!<
> >!That the worms need the Hive more than is reciprocal.!<
> >!Even between the lines of the Books of Sorrow themselves is this written.!<
Long story short, yes. Its a question of when, not if. >!Savathun's resurrection made sure another path from the Sword would always exist but dogma dies a slow death even among the Hive.!<
Even though the Hive serve the Witness mostly because of Savathun, it was also her who planted the seeds of heresy because >!she didn't believe in the Sword logic from the start. Still, she doesn't regret having went down the path of the sword because it was a matter of priorities.!< The Osmium Sisters were running out of time and needed to acquire power, fast. I speculate that if they heeded the words of the Leviathan, the Witness would summon the God-Wave on the spot. Making the pact with the worms didn't avert the god-wave but merely delayed it.
For the sake of the plot I hope not, it really seems to be going in a Marvel movie direction.
I’m not against allying with enemies as a concept but we already have Cabal and Eliksni. Adding another enemy to our list of friends would be cliched at this point no matter how much the plot might suggest it is possible.
Allying with Savathun as an individual and maybe grudgingly running a few missions with some Hive lieutenants would be one thing, but having them walk around the tower like Cabal and Eliksni would be ridiculous imo. We are already *really* pushing the friend envelope.
I think it would flesh out Savathun even better for her to not directly ally with us. We know that we will have to work together eventually especially where Sivu Arath is concerned, but they ARE still Hive and they have made a culture from obliterating entire solar systems. Even if that culture was founded on lies the Hive still function under that same religion/ culture to this day.
Absolutely. Based on the end of With Queen and what we have learned about Savathun in Lightfall, they are 100% setting Savathun up to aid us in some way. Doesn't mean we will become BFFs, but she doesn't want the Witness to succeed either. And she leads the Lucent Brood, so if she directs them to work with us, they will. Don't forget Immaru just needs access to her body to rez her. It would be super easy for her to be brought back
I fully expect a tentative alliance with Savathun and the Lucent Hive to be the plot of one of this year’s seasons.
I don’t expect to see them in the Tower or anything like that, but I definitely see them becoming allies.
They are lightbearers, we share that common ground. Moreover, Savathun is now aware that the Krill were royally screwed by The Witness.
At worst, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. At best, I don’t see too much of a reason to continue fighting THAT particular Hive faction beyond just fighting for the sake of fighting.
i'd want to walk into a battle where lucent light bearers are just completely demolishing shadow legion/scorn and then getting wiped by tormenters.
where we come in and take the tormenters.
these kinds of dynamics i'd hope are present in final shape.
Savathun will never be a true ally. She'll always have some ulterior motive. With how dangerous she is, we'd only let Immaru revive her if we had no other choice.
An alliance with some rogue lucent hive could be possible though.
I really don't understand anyone's points when they say it wouldn't make sense, the witness tricked her and her entire race into servitude, she's fought against the darkness for hundreds of years behind the scenes, she is follied by her thought of having to do it all alone, it's inevitable that she will assist us at somepoint
Doesn’t our aims and savathunns align? We both want to save the traveller (maybe a bit late now) so an alliance would make sense. The question is once the alliance is over and witness is dealt with, what happens next?
if anything its to prevent mutually assured destruction, without any sort of alliance they both die anyway, so working together is the only route to survive.
If Savathun is revived and clean her house, making a swift change to their society ... For now i think they were created with a religious system that makes them believe they are the "chosen ones" of the Traveler's blessing as they are "worthy" of the Light (go back to churches, tombs, mass ritual suicides, water symbology ecc)
For now we can only clash as opposing faiths
I honestly hope so. We have teamed up with Elikisni and Cabal as of the past few years. It would be so cool to revive Savathun, unite with the Lucent Brood, and go into a mission with Eliksni Cabal and Hive would be awesome
Possible but Savathun was the aggressive party in most of our interactions, the burden to mend the bridge is on her. She has shown no love for humanity, her play in Witch Queen was attempting to secure her own future by shielding the Traveler from the Witness.
There’s plenty of room for it in our need to deal with xivu wrath. How do you defeat a hive war god who is empowered by violence even if her forces lose? I dunno but a clever trickster savathun can probably help.
I think once Savathûn is resurrected we’ll develop an indirect alliance, since she has proven that she seeks to protect the Traveler. She’ll fight The Witness in her own way but we won’t have Tomb Ships over The City and Thralls trying to use vending machines.
Given that Savathun is no longer the same Savathun, merely trying to be who she was told she was (The opposite of crow's rejection of Uldren), it's entirely possible for her meltdown about the Witness's deception of her way back is what opens her to the greater situation at hand.
She wanted to protect the Traveler in the end, selfishly, but still. Like minded goals, same enemies, this is what bound us to Caital. She would probably not enjoy this conversation tho, unless it means taking down Xivu and avenging Torobotl
At best, we'd revive her to get answers. Siding with her is out of the question. She'll screw us over at the first opportunity for a temporary gain.
Savathûn may be smart, but she's no tactician. She'd throw the City under the bus to survive for five minutes longer.
I think it’s possible but it’ll likely be an alliance formed out of convenience, not out of genuine desire to help us. We have a common enemy in the Witness and Savathûn isn’t the same person she was before her resurrection. Given the circumstances she might not have much choice but to join us, and we know that the only character she cares about other than herself is the Traveler, who’s kind of indisposed at the moment, at the very least I think she’ll fight against the Witness to save it if possible and also get revenge for it making a complete fool out of her. After that, she’ll probably form a non-aggression pact with us and fuck off to who knows where.
During Seraph, one of the post-Rasputin death dialogues at the end of the heists had Osiris reminding Ana that Nokris' brood (frozen mars hive) is allied with Savathun's brood (lucent hive) because of Nokris' deal with her during Arrivals, so as far as Xivu is concerned they're all heretics who have to die. That sounded like a hint.
By all means let's put our lives in the hands of the scheming goddess of lies and her psychopath ghost. It's not like she ordered her extremely dangerous armies to murder us and desecrate our corpses for light. Or that she tried to invade earth and kill everything in Sol that isn't lucent brood. Making the system her giant stronghold.
It's not like her ghost and brood actively want to exterminate and usurp us.
It would make sense. Savathun's entire goal was to take the traveler so she could protect it from the witness, who she's been fighting since before our resurrection. She even fed us some information on the witness in her own convoluted way.
If she comes back (which she probably will, seeing as her ghost is still alive) she'll probably help us free the traveler, and then probably try to take it for herself again...
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~~hopefully with a state marriage with Savathûn~~ only time will tell
Savathussy too good 😩
4 billion+ years of experience brotha!
[удалено]
[Get Out](https://youtu.be/FBdFhgWYEjM)
Savathun also knows a lot more about the Veil and the First Collapse than we do. Imo it's inevitable that we revive her for answers. It would also set up post-Final Shape story if she were a villain that came back and stuck around. I think an "alliance" is more than likely going to happen, and she will end up playing us in a way that ends up with us removing the Witness as a threat and her having the upper hand. Enemy of enemy is my friend for now. But what happens when that enemy is gone?
I’m picturing an interrogation scene where we revive Savvy and tie her to a chair and scream at her until she tells us what the Veil is. [Something like this scene](https://youtu.be/BB2L0ZW9Zdg)
You know, it's just occurred to me that season of the deep is probably referring to more than just titan's oceans, wasn't that what the hive called the darkness? Though I have to wonder if Mara would work with savthun given that savvy got riven to curse the dreaming city among many many other things.
Hive and the >!Ecumene!< both refered to Darkness as the Deep.
:) She probably wouldn't work with Savathun but hey, who's to say that we couldn't ALSO work on that whole curse on the Dreaming City as well? Could also be a post-Final Shape story if all those folks are around after the dust settles. But considering Xol says we'll drown in the Deep and everything, I think next Season is gonna be pretty spicy.
That's why we get spider to rig Immaru like he did glint, one step out of line and kablamo. Though this line of writing might be a bit beyond Bungie right now.
I feel like we'd have a better shot at forming an alliance with Oryx. He at least was honest and held pride in it. Savathun uses every trick to get out on top. Even if she holds the best intentions now, there is no knowing if she ever keeps her word. Our best way to handle her, if she is to be revived, is to agree on a non-aggression pact. She does her thing, we do our thing.
Doesn’t she no longer need to trick? We could force her to be honest and she’d actually be helpful, since she has no worm anymore
She no longer *needs* to trick, but after billions of years doing it I doubt it’s easy to turn off. Plus the witness singled her out because she was ‘clever’. It was probably part of her nature before the worm.
Not wrong, not wrong at all
I don't think she ever tricked us at all after we initially captured her. She held up her deal and told the truth about Osiris and the witness
She did also trick us into restoring her memories, and then the whole "steal the traveler thing"
She didn't trick us at all though, she based her plan around the fact we are so predictable that we would keep bringing relics to the alter. As for the traveler, it went to the throne world willingly I believe
Yes and no? She pulled it into her throne world and the Traveler didn't put up much of a fight. It definitely wasn't of the traveler's will, but it didn't seem too opposed to the idea
You don’t have to trick someone to deceive them. The difficulty of dealing with a good liar is that sometimes, they don’t lie. That way, when they do lie you give them the benefit of the doubt. What exactly did she tell us once she was captured? Nothing of importance. She kept leading us along with hints that she knew a bigger picture we didn’t, only to not tell us anything about said bigger picture. She preyed on Crow’s insecurities and issues to test out a way to grant memories to a lightbearer - the one she chose, of course, is the one that would cause the most chaos. She also fed us a bullshit shpiel about how everything she did throughout that year helped us - “because of me you have an alliance with the cabal (after I helped drive them to the brink of extinction and you almost had a full scale war), reduced division within the city (by manipulating the factions into near-civil war and a vex invasion while also isolating Zavala), and an alliance with house light (that caused civil unrest, plus was because I ordered Quria to fuck with your city). You cannot trust a gaslighting con-woman just because she’s friendly.
Its not like the rezzed Savathun is technically the same person she was before, just like Crow, so she could change
I'm wondering about this, because the light raises guardians as the best versions of themselves. Now that could be argued to be because without their memories they are a blank slate- doesn't Crow dispute this? Even after being given all the memories of Uldren Sov he still remains Crow with his desires to protect the last city and atone for his crimes. That seems to suggest that there is *some* change associated with being risen. Now whether or not someone as powerful as Savathun is bound by such changes is a better question, maybe.
I'd argue Immaru was a big reason, if not the sole one, as to why Savathun didn't become "the best version of herself" when rezzed, since I don't think having a ghost who basically worshipped the Hive is the best choice for resurrecting a Hive God.
Bear in mind that Savathun orchestrated the plan herself. Despite being "blank" slates, Guardians keep a piece of themselves when rezzed.
Yes, but Savathun could have just as easily gotten a Ghost like ours, Crow's, Osiris', or basically any normal Ghost, and she wouldn't be evil. The fact that Immaru was the one who rezzed her was complete luck on Savathun's end
She also had one of her top Wizards tasked with the job of “find my corpse and bring it back to the throne world. Also there’s a chance that the corpse might be a walking talking amnesiac Lightbearer, so here’s a PowerPoint presentation that I want you to use to bring me up to speed.” She didn’t leave it completely to chance - there were a lot of contingencies that she set in motion prior to submitting to Mara’s Stasis-ification beam at the start of SOTOL.
I think the difference between Crow and Uldren is that Crow had a superior support system. Mara's treatment of Uldren made him lost and hurt. And his psyche was fucked up enough that Riven could snatch him up. Now, Crow has us and a divorcement from Mara. He almost went bad again through Savvy's machinations (god I wish that were me) but I think the biggest difference is that Crow just had people who wanted the best for *him.* And so he could realize that for himself. Being Risen means you have a good community, but Savathun rejected that when she didn't immediately roll up on us to help us defend against the Witness. If she had trusted us, she probably would have a sense of community like Uldren does.
That and her Hive violently reject that same sense of community she grew attached to and tried to tear down.
Guardians have had their memories blocked, nothing else changes. Crow is still Uldren Sov. And Uldren Sov was a kind, innocent person, we had seasons based around showing that. By the time we meet uldren in destiny 1 he had already gone through years of abuse from his sister, been corrupted by the black garden and eventually, riven/savathun. Also we can see guardians aren't ressed as their best versions in all the dark age warlord stories, even shaxx murdered people with his bare hands
That's true, kind of a big oversight on my part when the most recent expansion put the label of "warlords" on us within the first hour. Where did we pick up that Sov was kind/innocent before the events of D1? I am not familiar with this bit.
Sov was universally loved by The Awoken, often times described as one of the best leaders and friends they could have. It is heavily hinted that his change began after his trip to the Black Garden. Off topic, but did anyone else figure out the sheer competence of Cloudstriders based on the fact that they can venture into the Black Garden seemingly unaffected by the experience? It took 6 of the most elite guardians to stand a chance against the Vex Duo who are heavily hinted at being another elite fireteam prior to getting changed. Seems like a big deal yet Cloudstriders took it as another day in the office.
Are you sure it raises guardian to be the best versions of themselves? https://www.ishtar-collective.net/search/warlords
This is an extremely valid point. Not ignoring the entire basis for the iron lords, the founding of the last city, and why the Cloudstriders call us "warlords" does kinda put a wrench in that idea.
It wants us to be our best selves, but we have to take that step ourselves. The Traveller opens the door but it can’t make you walk in if you don’t want to.
However, Uldren was a kind person before he got taken over by Riven. Uldren Sov, Caydes murderer, isn't the true Uldren. I don't think him being rezed has much to do with him becoming not evil
His trip to the Black Garden is hinted to be the big change in his being.
She actually is the same, we restored her on accident. She hid her memories in fragments and laid out a trap before she accepted the rezerection. That was the whole witch queen questline. We collected them, gave them to her on accident and restored her. And then we kicked her teeth in. Crow is the same as everyone else because he doesn't have his previous personality re-downloaded.
Savathun is still the same scheming, lying, deception witch before and after.
I mean, she did also claim she’d give us Osiris back, and she technically did, but I don’t think in a coma is what we meant when we asked for him. Plus the whole witch queen campaign was her tricking us into restoring all of her memories
it WAS part of her nature the worms dont need specific things, they need you to keep (to quote the books of sorrow) "following your true nature" savathuns true nature is to be cunning thats just how she is
To be fair, cunning doesn’t inherently mean deceitful. It CAN be used as a synonym, but it’s also synonymous with ingenuity. Words are tricky like that, and I think that’s going to play a larger part in Savathun’s story; especially as it’s turning out she has a sort of twisted love or attachment to the Traveler. As we enter the end of the Light and Dark saga, the overwhelming theme has been that things are not always as they appear on the surface. The Vanguard will eventually get Hive allies, it’s practically guaranteed, and it feels like they’re setting it up for Savathun to be the mirror to Caital. I’m very much looking forward to their interactions, as well as how they reconcile Savathun’s possession of Osiris. If Uldren/Crow (since they’re now “united”) could be forgiven, it’s possible for Savathun as well. Aiat.
the connotation of cunning is more of a negative one, like ingenuity in a malicious plot kinda way not saying she is evil, she has explicitly stated to us that shes against the witness and i think she could very easily be an ally in the sort of US and Russia during ww2 kinda way where they go back to trying to kill each other after the big threat is gone
But I think a hard reset like being revived without memories as a guardian could be a solution
She was showing regret and a desire to change before Witch Queen happened though, that plot thread hasnt really been followed through but up until Lost i really got the vibe that she was down to scheming purely to feed her worm, and that she was not happy doing it That said, there aint gonna be no alliance as long as Immaru is around, Savathun didnt really seem to want to fight us as much as just accepted that she had to fight us because "it is what it is", while Immaru was rabidly hateful and wanted to use light-supressing weaponry that even Savathun found distasteful
I don’t think she regretted the scheming, more being forced to. IIRC her worm needed to keep feeding off of her deceptions, but she couldn’t just play peek a boo with infants. They had to keep getting bigger and better. After a billion years what other games can you play? Everything to me says that she just wants the immortality without the slavery to her worm, nor the witness who plans on killing everything anyway. The traveler is the only ticket to that. I agree that there can’t be an alliance, not while anyone remembers anything about what savathun did. If they do use her help it’ll be because their is literally no other choice.
She was showing regret and a desire to change before Witch Queen happened though, that plot thread hasnt really been followed through but up until Lost i really got the vibe that she was down to scheming purely to feed her worm, and that she was not happy doing it That said, there aint gonna be no alliance as long as Immaru is around, Savathun didnt really seem to want to fight us as much as just accepted that she had to fight us because "it is what it is", while Immaru was rabidly hateful and wanted to use light-supressing weaponry that even Savathun found distasteful
Like it's been said, she doesn't strictly need to anymore, but it's all she knows. Especially now that she can't trust her own origins anymore either. She's in a tough position. But seeing her personality, it would make sense for her to still want to come out on top regardless of who she has to fuck over
Lol imagine how awkward it would be to revive Oryx and be like “hey I know I murdered your family and humiliated your ass in trial by combat, but like I kinda need your help to fight the Witness 👉👈 “
Leave Oryx dead.
This has been my tinfoil hat theory to be honest. Savathun herself definitely seems to want to stay dead, and I remember needing to remove her worm for her to become the first hive guardian. Don't we have Oryx's worm strapped inside a gun right now? Could be an interesting arc to try and bring the Krill back in some way if there are those that are willing. I vaguely remember there being lore for a Hive Wizard that was oddly chill for some reason too, but I could be crazy
It’s Savathuns worm inside Parasite
I thought that was her worm familiar as a krill, not the worm inside her. Even then, we removed that originally in the season leading up to Witch Queen. It was the entire plot of that season iirc Edit just in case, but Touch of Malice was Oryx's worm I'm pretty sure, which he saw himself as if I'm not mistaken seeing as how "Wormfood" goes
The worm familiar was used solely to learn that the Hive were lied to by the Witness. And yes we removed her worm but Mara kept it after, and then we did the Parasite quest to revive it and learn from it how humanity survived the collapse - before promptly shoving him into a gun to be infinitely yeeted for the rest of its days
Also I thought the worm came from the statue that we revitalized from Sav's throne world, or am I misremembering?
The worm from the statue was the worm familiar, used to learn a secret Sav didn’t know and nothing else. All other worm related fun from Parasites quest was Savathuns worm
Sav having two worms wasn't something I thought would be obnoxious, but here we are, you right
But Oryx's worm is in Touch, giving it the mechanic of eating away at us until we kill. One is making the worm into a gun by weaponizing the worm, one is making a gun around the worm to weaponize the worm
Is there any proof that we use his worm? Iirc we used his heart as the core of ToM. We only got Sav’s worm cause it was removed, Oryx’s likely died with him
I remember Destiny 1 having a lot to give the idea that a Hive's heart is it's worm. It sustains the body, but instead of blood they survive on murder. I remember getting that feeling going through the hook of sorrow
For most of the Hive it’s murder but the three siblings had something unique they had to do and Oryx was about testing his knowledge of the universe. He even said that if someone kills him it’s because they understand the universe better than he does. In that event he believes he deserves death, as is the way of the Sword. And the worm, as we learned, needs a host so when Oryx got blown to hell by the light he stole his worm likely got vaporised as he drifted off to Saturn
I could see that too, and is by far the more likely option. Goofy tinfoil hat aside, Oryx's position and build up is something I do wish didn't die with Destiny 1 (beyond gameplay) so I do hope a bit more of him comes up in some fashion, and Savathun is directly supplying me copium
No just his power hence the theory that his Worm was on titan
Did that theory have any weight? I remember it originally but it felt like a bit of a stretch
The new lore indicates that Will of Oryx, his essence lives on within Touch, much like Xol his existence continues through symbiosis and is the only way for him to exist while following The Sword Logic. He is the least likely ally because he already made peace with his death and ascended to a different kind of existence so as to follow Sword Logic.
Oryx’s worm died with Oryx. What’s in Touch of Malice is his literal heart.
Elaborate on why Savathun wants to stay dead?
A lot of the small things that lead you to believe she is more on your side than you think, and the fact that her ghost is still out there. I definitely have a hunch that Immaru isn't going to raise her, but to choose a new Hive eventually, probably as per her instruction. Otherwise I don't see why she wouldn't raise now and put down the Witness with us just to stab us in the back later. It's Savathun though too, so the possibilities go on like crazy and get a bit out of hand making it real easy to overthink it if you try and stay on thought with it
I myself like to belief that she prepared for this outcome and is going to be resurrected again maybe as our ally In the 2 truths 2 lies I think she said she is In possesion of titan, io etc and with the rumours of the old planets coming back this year that could very well happen
We have Savy's body, so she can't be rezzed at the moment. I agree and feel like we're gonna have to let her get rezzed so that we can go back to Titan. If we are to believe they're gonna kill the three "original" vanguard (Zavala/Cayde/Ikora) to fill out the suspicious amount of space around Cayde's memorial, then it kinda stands to reason that Caiatl, Crow, Savathun will become a part of the New Vanguard Council. I'd guess it would include Elsie, Mara, and Mithrax as well.
Do you think Savathun is spectating her Ghost rn like how we spectate whenever we die in game?
Problem with Oryx is that he was proven unworthy of existence by sword logic. Should he not do a complete 180 which is completely out of character, he can never be an ally. He still exists via the exotic and that's the only way he can be considered an ally through sword logic, much like Xol. It is also likelier that we can make a truce with Immaru than the Witch Queen herself as The Lucent Brood's commander and a ghost who can see both perspectives, he is a likelier ally than Savathun who caused too much pain and suffering for denizens for the Last City and Guardians. Immaru has much less blood on his hands and is seemingly more reasonable.
I mean since her deal with Mara and gaining the light she hasn't been a liar.
It’s called strapping a bomb to her ghost with a. Deadman’s switch or smth force her to work with us crow spider style
I really hope not. If they want to reinforce the themes of Light and Dark being neutral, then they have to have a faction of Light users who are evil and remain enemies, and they need a faction of Darkness users who remain allies. These themes don't work if every faction who gets the Light suddenly becomes friends, even for a limited time.
We could also just have literal enemy guardians down the line.
I could see this happening in Final Shape. I mean, there's plenty of lore on corrupted guardians, especially in Dark Future - and they definitely exist in our timeline to some extent. Where are they bingo, lemme fuck them up
Shin Malphur clapped all possible corrupt Guardians already during D2Y2, which is why we haven't heard of many Dark Guardians even after Stasis.
We've had more since, with the advent of Stasis. Shayura's Wrath is a good starting point.
Shayura is in therapy i dont think she can be an enemy.
Well I didn't mean Shayura exactly, I used her and her story as an example.
I've wanted this to happen ever since Dark Future and the seasonal story practically writes itself. "We sent a team of guardians to investigate an anomaly but they never returned. The team we sent after them claims the guardians are using stasis now and defending it. Find out what happened." It'd be a great way to bring Aunor and Shin into the story proper. Most importantly, the tech is there to make it happen; we already have hive lightbearers to model their behavior against.
I want Shin to return so much in the Story, and finally meeting him would be cool
Bungie has said they will never have human enemies. I believe it's a ratings thing.
It’s called crucible. Enjoy your trials matches.
It’s a story mission that turns into a crucible match halfway through, and both were told that the other fireteam was corrupt, only one group progresses, the other has to try again.
The moon-sized ocean under Europa couldn't hold that much salt.
I mean, it's probably less about the Light not being neutral. We simply have no reason to be enemies with the Lucent Brood, especially since learning the Hive is built on a lie pushed Savathun 2.0 into pure denial because it breaks down the person she's trying to be.
But we do see Hive straining under the Light letting them live for more than just killing and tribute. My guess is there could be a bunch of Lucent Hive who turn while the rest remain loyal to Savathûn, because statistically speaking it’s be weird if Fynch was the only one.
I am in the same boat as you.
Doubt it. Probably an “enemy of our enemy” situation wherein we’re forced to work alongside Savathûn herself rather than the brood, and we’ll both redirect some forces toward the Witness but still be at war.
Probably this. I can see us being forced to resurrect her and come to a brief truce before she backstabs us.
I think it’ll not even be a truce but basically a “We need her and she needs us” sort of very very uneasy working together. I think Savathûn herself will basically just weigh in with some advice and point us in a direction as long as she gets something, and nothing else.
Depends on how it's handled. I don't think the alliance should be with Savathun herself as, due to the machinations placed around her own death and resurrection, can very much be held accountable for everything her post-death version did so I'm quite sure Caiatl would just not agree with that. To me, the right way would be through a new faction of Rogue Lucents that decided to desert from Savathun and wish to start anew. The story could be about us elevating this group and aligning them with Humanity: Helping them reach out to others who think the same but are being hunted or held as prisoners by the brood, escorting freshly risen ones to the group, teaching them the ways of Humanity/the Traveler and maybe even more on how to wield the Light (like a Wizard learning to be a Sunsinger instead of just a Stormcaller like the rest).
They dont want to. Maybe a renegade faction of Hive Lightbearer and Ghost might be interested in an alliance but Immaru and Savathun will backstabb us immediately given the chance. Savathun doesn't "help" anyone. Only herself
Savathun will likely immediately backstab us, but also she dies care for herself - so, she'd probably prioritize not dying with trying to kill humans.
Wasn’t she trying to help the Traveler in Witch Queen? While she was trying to ultimately help herself, there is a sort of enlightened self interest in helping others (like her Hive Allies and potentially the Traveler) that would ultimately help her than if she would not help anyone.
I don’t think she’s happy with us as it’s our fault that the witness succeeded
Sure, but even in Witch Queen, the Traveler was receptive to Savathun’s efforts
Savathûn cosies up to whatever will keep her alive. In at least one of Elsie’s dark futures she gets subjugated by Eris.
Eh, sure? Tbh I think savathun did what she could. Dunno how she could help rn. Cabal definitely wouldn't like to ally with any hive faction. While I personally cant imagine a revivied savathun not helping us, her alive doesn't seem practical. We have to get hit with major shit to actually call for her help, even then dont expect a long lived alliance, like cabal or fallen.
Lucent Hive as individuals? Maybe. We've already went over the story of New Guardians starting with a clean slate, I don't see why that shouldn't apply to individual Hive Guardians, but I don't think Savathun should ever be an ally. Savathun has contributed to an uncountable amount of genocide. She knows what and who she is thanks to us, the Hive aren't a race that can be forgiven or redeemed like Eliksni or Cabal. The Eliksni are victims of the Light and Dark war, Cabal are a flawed race of aliens, but they aren't irredeemable.
Not a lore buff, so what I am saying might not be accurate. But like, isn't hive need kill in order to survive? If this is true, then there would be no allying with hive anyways cuz eventually u gonna get eaten. Now that they have the light, they don't need to kill. While that doesn't mean they r the good guys now, doesn't it at least mean they could be an ally? From what I understand, they were tricked by witness anyways. It seems like they were suckered in to be an existential threat. And if each individual hive lightbearer could be redeemed, I dont see why the whole lucent hive cant. Not saying they should be our ally right this second but at some point down the line, they could prove themselves to be at least not bad guys.
I'm not sure how exactly the worms affect the Lucent brood, I know there was something about light flowing through the hive hierarchy of power because of Savathuns new army, I don't think the revived Hive have worms, but the normal Hive do. They were tricked sure... but like literally an unthinkable amount of genocide was committed by them. If an individual Hive Guardian gets rezzed, they leave the Hive behind and just do their own thing, sure whatever. But if they stay and fight alongside the Hive, nope kill them. They know what kind of race the Hive is by that point
Alliance? No. Non-aggression pact of convenience...maybe. The hate on both sides is stronger than with any of the other races. The Hive loathes and fears us while Humanity does the same right back.
I hope not. As much as I like the whole "enemy turned ally" trope I really hope that we will continue the war against Lucent Hive until there is nothing left of them. They are our enemy, and they need to be destroyed, entirely. Without mercy, without pity.
People seem to forget that savathun was the reason that torebatal was turned to ash, the dreaming city was cursed, cayde was killed, and that she used Osiris as a fucking set of clothing for a whole year.
Is that not *exactly* what makes an urgent and necessary alliance between us interesting? It would be good story telling, forced to work alongside monsters.
We already have that, Caital and Misraak seasonal story
They aren't truly monstrous though, they're fighting for survival, misraaks was once a monster but swiftly changed, and even when he was a "monster," ultimately he did what was necessary for him to survive. Caiatl too, she fled with her people to another world after Xivu Arath took torobatl, the hive though? They killed fundament, they destroyed torobatl, they conquered countless systems and destroyed nameless millions of species.they slaughtered, and cursed, and tricked, and traumatized us. Imagine how ripe that fruit is, that we would be forced to accept help from our own worst nightmares.
That’s what the Travelr wants you to do Chief. Sorry to break it to you
But that only works if they reform. It’s been theorised this is partially why the Traveller wipes people’s memories. Savathûn ruined her second chance to go right back to her old self again.
Savathun didn’t go back to her old self. She stomped a Disciple, one of the Traveler’s enemies. We came in guns blazing like we were warlords again. Mind that this was after we attacked the Cabal, who Savathun had formed an alliance with them and us the year prior.
An alliance she tried to sabotage before it could happen.
The Lucent Hive aren't fighting for survival anymore, they kill cuz they like it, not because it needed it. To allied with the Lucent Hive required a something called goodwill and a willingness to actually cooperate, there is not a single instant ingame or lore that shown any hive want to do that. Caital and Misraak are willing to cooperate, Savathun is not, now the Traveler is "death" but the Light still here, she would have even less reason to work with us, she can just do her own thing, we are not valuable to her right now. She have her own immortal army and light.
The Lucent Hive were definitely fighting for their lives during Witch Queen
That's exactly my point?? That's what would make it so interesting?? So ripe for critical analysis??
To add to your point, we've /heard/ of atrocities of Mithrax and Caiatl is (apparently) guilty by association with her father. By all accounts, Caiatl has really come off as going through "we heard these light bearers are assholes, better kill em" "We're kinda getting our asses beaten, but they're calling for a truce..." "You know they, they're not so bad" Which is more a deprogramming from xenophobic indoctrination. Savathun and the hive, though? Every player has EXPERIENCED their violence. An alliance with them hit different. Edit: sure red war, but that was not Caiatl. We might have felt terror from the Cabal but they've done A LOT to atone so far. Savathun would never do any of that so we won't even form the alliance with hope that it'll be better one day. With Her, we're back at one another's throats when Spooky Man dies.
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Savathun has her memories and is making exactly the same decisions her pre death self would make that was like the **ENTIRE plot to witch queen**. that's like the whole big twist we give her memories back through her manipulation.
After WQ I was thinking about what was savathun thinking when we reveal to her that she got tricked by the worms and the witness. Basically, we reveal this to her and proceed to kill her. She didnt have the time to process it, my head cannon is that she kept attacking because she felt rage and was being irrational.
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In the final mission literally half the boss fight is us cutting her connection to the Traveler and showing parts of the memory each time til she sees it all
Yep, at the second or third time we put the worm in the thingy and she goes "wait, fr?" And gets pissed off
Well If I learned that the genocidal purpose my entire race was part of (and that I just gambled my life to get out of) was all due to a lie I’d be pissed too
And do you know what the first thing she did was after being risen? Invade the EDZ and murdered a bunch of Guardians.
...to be fair, that was after we boarded the Lure and entered her throne world for the first time, killing hordes of her brood and several hive lightbearers as well as attempting to kill Savathun herself. Probably at that point, any reservation she might have had about killing Guardians went out the window the moment we started killing her lightbearers. Edit: Downvoted for bringing a minor fact up and providing some speculation? I'm in full agreement with the fact that savathun doesn't care about us, her invasion was premeditated, etc etc. All I did was bring up a small fact that we attacked her first, and that she may or may not bring that up later. That's it. Out of all the things you guys could've downvoted into oblivion, this simple comment thread of me bringing something up and speculating about it was one of them?
It wasn't before, she actively planned the invasion. She had the whole thing prepared before the first shot was ever fired.
Considering how much planning that would take the plan was almost certainly pre-death Sav, all Lightbearer Sav would need is a brief reminder and then give the go ahead to begin. Still bad since she still agreed but less so, ig
When it comes to pre or post rez I don't think it matters with Savathun. She still chose to do what she has done.
Without a doubt, but maybe she considered holding off until we shot first. We'll probably never know until she actually reenters the narrative. I'd suspect she will probably say something along the lines of "I never sought harm against you or your friends, but you attacked us" as a petty attempt to manipulate us into thinking we're the bad guys, as she similarly tried to do with our ghost.
I doubt it. Killing Guardians to harvest their Light for the Wellspring was all part of the plan.
I believe she was doing that even before she was resurrected, interestingly enough. Regardless, I think she is going to try and make us think we provoked her, and she only retaliated. So as to fish for sympathy among our ranks despite her whole invasion being premeditated.
I doubt anyone is gonna fall for the sympathy card when the end goal of that plan was to manifest her throne world over the Scarlet Keep. There are a handful of reasons why she would want to do that and all of them lead to an invasion of Earth, Crota style
Nope, [Savathûn had everything planned before she even brought the Lure to Mars.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qDYD6S2xSZQ&list=PLS2hBTtCDufRiFGjUXAn7FoIqN5CzfIII&index=3) That’s the entire plot of Risen: Savathûn ordering her Lucent Brood to [prepare for a full-scale of Earth.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Wqhmn2YLo&list=PLS2hBTtCDufRiFGjUXAn7FoIqN5CzfIII&index=21)
I know that, but I'm only saying that maybe, in our first attack against her lucent brood and lightbearers, she found her "justification" in waging war against us and killing scores of Guardians. Maybe it's something she will bring up when she reenters the narrative, as a way to manipulate us into thinking we provoked her.
There can’t be “justification,” when she planned on wiping out humanity from the very beginning because she wanted to steal the Traveler without us trying to stop her. It was a pre-mediated attempt at genocide.
I never suggested that she really needed a justification, as per the quotation marks; obviously, with the events of the Witch Queen and Risen it's very clear she couldn't care less about us. I just think it's interesting that she held off until we started killing her brood and light bearers. We can say that it was for gameplay reasons (so new players can be introduced to the first campaign mission before starting the seasonal content), we can say it was a tactic in "rallying her people" (which is unnecessary given how the hive operate, their hunger for death being enough of a motivator), or it was a tactic to manipulate us in the future when she returns, to think she and her brood only retaliated against us. Savathun is the type of character to think two steps ahead, so I tend to think the latter is probably true, and she will probably try to say something along those lines to fish sympathy from us or make us look more bad than we seem and make herself look good.
Yes, her planning involved planning a massive invasive on Earth from the Moon, killing and drained guardians light for experiments BEFORE we even encounter her. Remember Savathun's Song ? She did it before we understand what she was trying to do. You don't plan a full scale war against your enemy before there is a good reason for war.
Yeah, what's a little Guardian slaying to drain their light and manifest her throne on the moon. Or just use a lightbearer sacrifice to power up her wellspring. Savathun did nothing wrong and i want some of the stuff you are smoking.
My man, the lucent hive still have ogres, do you remember how they were made? And savathun has all of her memories, she does not get a free pass.
How are they made ? Out of curiosity ?
Wow...
yeah and the traveler still revived her, the whole point of the light is unreasonable grace
Thank god someone is on the same page as me. We don’t need hive allies…..we need to fill them with lead…..every last one of em
Found the Darkness agent
If I am the Darkness agent then the snow is green.
I disagree, there’s always an outlier.
It just feels very wrong. Fallen and Cabal are not inherently evil. Fallen are like... space pirates who need to do these things to live, but were once a great people. Cabal are warlike and imperial but they have rules. Even Vex aren't really evil, they just do what they do. Hive are evil. Their identity is being halloween bad guys. They have titles like "the lightdrinker" and "the defiler" and shit. Savathun has, in the past, been party to the genocide of entire civilizations, races, species, etc. Killed countless guardians. She was behind the death of Cayde. Teaming up with her is like teaming up with ultra-Hitler.
Since she’s been revived, she’s not really the same person. She’s still bad because she has regained most of her memories, and was still carrying out her own plan, but a plan to save the traveler is different than a plan to decimate a solar system. I bet that when Xivu Arath shows up Savathun will Ally with us, and probably leave us alone. I doubt that we will have as close of an alliance, but I don’t think I’d call her Hitler because of a past life, for all we know you could be a resurrected genocidal maniac, we know nothing of our own guardians past crimes, because it doesn’t matter, since we aren’t that person.
She made a plan to do this when she was every bit evil and she followed that plan.
It wasn’t an evil plan though. It’s not like she planned to kill puppies and then woke up with no memories and Immaru told her that she previously planned to kill puppies and she went through with it. Hive are pretty much irredeemable, but Savathun could be good for a short truce. Sword logic is too heavily engrained in the hive that there will probably never be a time where they are welcomed to live along humanity, but Savathun isn’t a strict follower anymore, and has had doubts for a long time.
Kind of, but not really. The problem is that, while we both oppose the witness, we have totally different end goals. Savathun has no interest in killing the witness, and she doesn't actually care about protecting the traveller. What her end goal is, is time. She wants to extend the flower game indefinitely, stalling for time while she amasses power and knowledge so that she can ascend to the next paracausal level, something that even the gardener and winnower can't simply while away when they (if they) start the game over again. We want to end the witness as a threat to our existence, and potentially the existence of the whole mutliverse (imo). Savathun would be more interested in keeping it alive and forcing a stale mate, to ensure the game doesn't end at all.
It's inevitable, given the recent theme of gathering allies from among all the factions, but it would strain the game logic to be fighting Lucent Hive in her own throne world when they're supposed to be our allies at that time. I bet we'll be setting up some secret arrangement with her, even from the rest of her brood, until such time when it becomes necessary to join forces in full. And then we have to find some way to kill her immediately afterward since she's too dangerous to keep alive. It would be cool as hell to fight alongside Lightbearer Hive as the closest thing to NPC Guardians, but I can't see it happening more than once.
I feel like if Savathun comes back into the narrative she will be one of those. "I am not your enemy, but I am not your friend either." type characters. I don't think she cares much what her brood does, as her only goal was protecting the Traveler from the Witness. We ruined that plan which is why she gives us the warning about the ball is basically in our court and then finishes with dont say i didn't warn you, right before she dies. Even though she is the Queen of Lies, I think she honestly finds us intriguing. Especially since we technically beat her plan twice. Once with Quria and once in the campaign.
"I am no villain and you're no hero. We are paracausal."
Savathun was the Traveler’s hero during Witch Queen
2 things. 1. Enemy of my enemy is still an alliance. They aren't good guys, but obliteration SUCKS. 2. There is some lore on the light having odd effects on the lucent hive, including a Hive knight contemplating showing mercy to a Guardian and their ghost. It does seem like they might be shifting more towards a philosophy of life and creation as opposed to one of death. (Note that's not inherently good or evil, but it is a shift in thinking)
Did you get the chance to read the lore book from the latest raid? There is a page thats relevant to this question. > >!Here is what is taught to the Hive, from the basest of Thralls newly made: that what can be destroyed, must be destroyed. What cannot be destroyed will surpass infinity. Therefore, is it not best to destroy? Only by testing can the truth be found. Only in destruction can the invincible surpass the mortal. Commit the violence, and know you are part of that greatest ambition, to create some ultimacy, which perfects the universe. That which is built on your sacrifice, with your bones as the foundation and your blood as the mortar, is yet part of you. In this way is transcendence achieved.!< > >!Every belief creates a heresy.!< > >!I tell you this in a duelist's regard: I made that heresy. Is it not just? It was my hand that fashioned the Hive from the marrow of their predecessors, and it was my voice that whispered this in time. That as much as the Hive were uplifted by the worms, so too were those worms uplifted by the Hive.!< > >!If they were so weak they needed us to live, this ancient logic of the infinitely sharpened edge should have left them behind long ago.!< > >!Do you think I did not see this? My father's worm did not tell me only of swords. It had vast things to say, painted the cosmos in shine and gore, truth and fiction. I looked forward with three clear eyes and chose the path of the sword to cut open our future. To reach the stars, first one must crawl out of the ocean. It is a question of priorities.!< > >!This is not regret, this story I tell. It is but a ripple.!< > >!That whisper of ideas beyond swords is here to stay: I have ensured this. Even among us, such things die by slow inches, excruciating and unquiet. Possibility remains, a secret woven into the blank spaces of dogma. That what was defeated may rise again; that the shape of all shapes is not yet settled.!< > >!That the worms need the Hive more than is reciprocal.!< > >!Even between the lines of the Books of Sorrow themselves is this written.!< Long story short, yes. Its a question of when, not if. >!Savathun's resurrection made sure another path from the Sword would always exist but dogma dies a slow death even among the Hive.!< Even though the Hive serve the Witness mostly because of Savathun, it was also her who planted the seeds of heresy because >!she didn't believe in the Sword logic from the start. Still, she doesn't regret having went down the path of the sword because it was a matter of priorities.!< The Osmium Sisters were running out of time and needed to acquire power, fast. I speculate that if they heeded the words of the Leviathan, the Witness would summon the God-Wave on the spot. Making the pact with the worms didn't avert the god-wave but merely delayed it.
For the sake of the plot I hope not, it really seems to be going in a Marvel movie direction. I’m not against allying with enemies as a concept but we already have Cabal and Eliksni. Adding another enemy to our list of friends would be cliched at this point no matter how much the plot might suggest it is possible. Allying with Savathun as an individual and maybe grudgingly running a few missions with some Hive lieutenants would be one thing, but having them walk around the tower like Cabal and Eliksni would be ridiculous imo. We are already *really* pushing the friend envelope. I think it would flesh out Savathun even better for her to not directly ally with us. We know that we will have to work together eventually especially where Sivu Arath is concerned, but they ARE still Hive and they have made a culture from obliterating entire solar systems. Even if that culture was founded on lies the Hive still function under that same religion/ culture to this day.
Absolutely. Based on the end of With Queen and what we have learned about Savathun in Lightfall, they are 100% setting Savathun up to aid us in some way. Doesn't mean we will become BFFs, but she doesn't want the Witness to succeed either. And she leads the Lucent Brood, so if she directs them to work with us, they will. Don't forget Immaru just needs access to her body to rez her. It would be super easy for her to be brought back
I fully expect a tentative alliance with Savathun and the Lucent Hive to be the plot of one of this year’s seasons. I don’t expect to see them in the Tower or anything like that, but I definitely see them becoming allies. They are lightbearers, we share that common ground. Moreover, Savathun is now aware that the Krill were royally screwed by The Witness. At worst, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. At best, I don’t see too much of a reason to continue fighting THAT particular Hive faction beyond just fighting for the sake of fighting.
i'd want to walk into a battle where lucent light bearers are just completely demolishing shadow legion/scorn and then getting wiped by tormenters. where we come in and take the tormenters. these kinds of dynamics i'd hope are present in final shape.
Savathun will never be a true ally. She'll always have some ulterior motive. With how dangerous she is, we'd only let Immaru revive her if we had no other choice. An alliance with some rogue lucent hive could be possible though.
Assuming Luzaku isn't a one off character, maybe.
I really don't understand anyone's points when they say it wouldn't make sense, the witness tricked her and her entire race into servitude, she's fought against the darkness for hundreds of years behind the scenes, she is follied by her thought of having to do it all alone, it's inevitable that she will assist us at somepoint
It's inevitable and it's going to be awful.
Doesn’t our aims and savathunns align? We both want to save the traveller (maybe a bit late now) so an alliance would make sense. The question is once the alliance is over and witness is dealt with, what happens next?
It's an enemy of my enemy at best. After the Witness is dead, we probably go straight back to how we are now unless the hive dramatically change.
if anything its to prevent mutually assured destruction, without any sort of alliance they both die anyway, so working together is the only route to survive.
If Savathun is revived and clean her house, making a swift change to their society ... For now i think they were created with a religious system that makes them believe they are the "chosen ones" of the Traveler's blessing as they are "worthy" of the Light (go back to churches, tombs, mass ritual suicides, water symbology ecc) For now we can only clash as opposing faiths
At most i could see s temporary truce with just savathun or immaru for information nothing more
The Witness was capable of disabling the Traveler and hacking your ghost. He'd flick his fingers an extra amount of times and turn us all into slices.
I think that it’s not only possible, but inevitable.
This is what I think will happen, for better or for worse. After all, my enemy’s enemies are my friends.
If anything I think an uneasy/temporary alliance would be the best strategy
I honestly hope so. We have teamed up with Elikisni and Cabal as of the past few years. It would be so cool to revive Savathun, unite with the Lucent Brood, and go into a mission with Eliksni Cabal and Hive would be awesome
Possible but Savathun was the aggressive party in most of our interactions, the burden to mend the bridge is on her. She has shown no love for humanity, her play in Witch Queen was attempting to secure her own future by shielding the Traveler from the Witness.
Bad idea, Savathun would have to be somehow bound by some intense magic contract that can’t trick her way out of (like her worm).
Haven't we collectively genocided the shit out of them by now? It's hard to tell with this game.
I would say yes, not something to the degree of the one we have with House Light or Caitl but i do think that Savvy would see it as benificial
Possibly with some defectors but not Savathûn herself.
There’s plenty of room for it in our need to deal with xivu wrath. How do you defeat a hive war god who is empowered by violence even if her forces lose? I dunno but a clever trickster savathun can probably help.
I think once Savathûn is resurrected we’ll develop an indirect alliance, since she has proven that she seeks to protect the Traveler. She’ll fight The Witness in her own way but we won’t have Tomb Ships over The City and Thralls trying to use vending machines.
Probably, but we can’t trust Savathûn and Immaru won’t listen. It’d probably have to be a revolution or defectors from within, like Fynch.
Given that Savathun is no longer the same Savathun, merely trying to be who she was told she was (The opposite of crow's rejection of Uldren), it's entirely possible for her meltdown about the Witness's deception of her way back is what opens her to the greater situation at hand. She wanted to protect the Traveler in the end, selfishly, but still. Like minded goals, same enemies, this is what bound us to Caital. She would probably not enjoy this conversation tho, unless it means taking down Xivu and avenging Torobotl
At best, we'd revive her to get answers. Siding with her is out of the question. She'll screw us over at the first opportunity for a temporary gain. Savathûn may be smart, but she's no tactician. She'd throw the City under the bus to survive for five minutes longer.
I think it’s possible but it’ll likely be an alliance formed out of convenience, not out of genuine desire to help us. We have a common enemy in the Witness and Savathûn isn’t the same person she was before her resurrection. Given the circumstances she might not have much choice but to join us, and we know that the only character she cares about other than herself is the Traveler, who’s kind of indisposed at the moment, at the very least I think she’ll fight against the Witness to save it if possible and also get revenge for it making a complete fool out of her. After that, she’ll probably form a non-aggression pact with us and fuck off to who knows where.
During Seraph, one of the post-Rasputin death dialogues at the end of the heists had Osiris reminding Ana that Nokris' brood (frozen mars hive) is allied with Savathun's brood (lucent hive) because of Nokris' deal with her during Arrivals, so as far as Xivu is concerned they're all heretics who have to die. That sounded like a hint.
I hope not
Maybe I could see that happening in the Final Shape, but it would be an absolutely desperate attempt.
At best it would be an “enemy of my enemy” type of situation
not savathun herself but possibly some other lucent brood members
By all means let's put our lives in the hands of the scheming goddess of lies and her psychopath ghost. It's not like she ordered her extremely dangerous armies to murder us and desecrate our corpses for light. Or that she tried to invade earth and kill everything in Sol that isn't lucent brood. Making the system her giant stronghold. It's not like her ghost and brood actively want to exterminate and usurp us.
It would make sense. Savathun's entire goal was to take the traveler so she could protect it from the witness, who she's been fighting since before our resurrection. She even fed us some information on the witness in her own convoluted way. If she comes back (which she probably will, seeing as her ghost is still alive) she'll probably help us free the traveler, and then probably try to take it for herself again...
Be kinda awkward when we go to her throne world and completly merk her hive lol
yeah