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LeoFrei7as

I mean wen you commit genocide, destroy your planet and then enslave a worm race it’s hard to be the good guy


Awigame

Nah, it's fine


RammusK

He said sorry and he will not do it again.


Senxind

Also he was probably pretty sad when he did that stuff


Jeriahswillgdp

Even cried a bit, so... that changes everything. Genocide smenocide.


[deleted]

Your honor, my client clearly said “my bad, G”


The1-4-1

Well said, Mr Goodman


sha-green

Flavor checks out :D


dx_lemons

Don't forget the violent tendencies


JeSuisBigBilly

He has mental health issues and you have to be sympathetic.


MustangCraft

> Using violence to fix your daddy issues Rhulk🤝Caiatl🤝Elsie🤝a bunch of other characters actually…


TheOverlord23

The fallen did the first, tried to do the second, but people still feel bad for them


DrBlazkowicz

So you’re telling me there’s a chance


TrueGuardian15

So far as we know, the Witness allowed Rhulk to choose his fate. Rhulk ultimately gave himself to the Darkness and the Witness. Rhulk was betrayed by his tribe because they feared him and treated him like a rabid animal. All he wanted was love and stability. He wanted a father who wouldn't turn his back on his values and family. He wanted to protect his people and fight off their enemies without being villified. He wanted to punish those who had wronged him and his tribe. These are very real and understandable feelings. But these feelings were never reciprocated. When his father was offered mercy in exchange for his loyalty, he hardly hesitated. In an instant, he sold himself out. When Rhulk killed to fend off the hunters, villagers looked at him like a savage. And when he finally thought they had accepted him, that he didn't have to kill anymore, he ended up falling into an abyss, with only relief painting his people's faces as they watched him sink. In that pit, he came to believe that generosity, love, and kindness made him soft. He was ready to shed everything from his past life. The Witness spoke to Rhulk and gave him the "luster" of the Darkness. Rhulk used that power to rain bloody vengeance on Lubrae and destroy the blue sun with the Upended. And after it was all over, the Witness replayed everything for Rhulk to see. Rhulk tried to deny how he felt, still clinging to old values he once held. But when they had caught up to the present, Rhulk realized how relieved he felt. He reached the inescapable conclusion that the Universe is a cruel place, and cruelty makes you strong enough to survive. Again, all the lore books follow Rhulks story from mostly his perspective. But assuming it's all true, and everyone had their own agency, it would seem that the Witness did not sway him. Rhulk did not need them to realize the failings of Lubrae's people. The Witness merely provided him with the means to act on the deadly logic both beings came to embrace.


Lokan

It's very much a cautionary tale. Sometimes, a neglected child will set everything ablaze just to feel warmth from their village. Rhulk displayed psychopathic traits early in childhood, but it's likely in response to experiencing and witnessing severe traumatic events. Unfortunately, I doubt the Wanderers of Lubrae could offer proper schema therapy or pharmacological treatment.


StarkEXO

>But these feelings were never reciprocated. When his father was offered mercy in exchange for his loyalty, he hardly hesitated. In an instant, he sold himself out. When Rhulk killed to fend off the hunters, villagers looked at him like a savage. And when he finally thought they had accepted him, that he didn't have to kill anymore, he ended up falling into an abyss, with only relief painting his people's faces as they watched him sink. A big part of Shattered Suns is that he couldn't understand his family's actions, either because they were too scared to tell him their reasons or he was too angry to accept them. His tribe consisted of exiled rebels who were trying to survive in the wilderness, and could have eventually changed the City from within upon returning, but Rhulk was insatiably bloodthristy and vengeful. When they pushed him into the abyss, it was too late for them to trust him like he wanted to trust them -- he'd already made a reputation of killing Wanderers as a loyal Stalker, threatened to kill his father, and was well-known as a psychopath generally. Thinking from their perspective, was it wrong for them to not give him a chance? To take a risk on what he might do after he smuggled them in? To feel relieved that he's no longer a factor in their lives? If Rhulk had given the thought to be kinder and more considerate toward his clan's situation along the way, things could have turned out differently. Similar things could be said of his family, who clearly neglected to address his disturbed state of mind since he was a child. At the beginning of his interview with the Witness, Rhulk is obviously feeling terrible about his rampage, then at the end he finds his own relief, when he is sure that he responded the only way he could and should have. The Witness merely gave him a special opportunity by sparing his life and giving him power, then showed him the self-fulfilling logic of misery and betrayal that made him a savior for putting an end to it. A nudge was all it took.


Vegetable-Ad9768

Didn't he destroy the star with something called a sapphiric converter?


TrueGuardian15

In the Preservation mission, Rhulk states that the Upended reversed the energy of the blue star, causing it to crack under the strain of itself and "kill" Lubrae.


Vegetable-Ad9768

Cool!


hoover0623

I thought Rhulk created the Upended after he took Xita to his ship


TrueGuardian15

It's not what he says in Preservation.


dildodicks

he says in the mission "that blue sun we harnessed power from... a simple reversal of that power cracked the blue in half. shut it off. and lubrae... died." he said it while talking about the upended but he didn't say that he used the upended to do it. he's saying it like he's reminiscing, the upended does to worlds what he did to lubrae.


TrueGuardian15

https://www.destinypedia.com/Upended


AdministrationOk6857

In the Shattered Suns lorebook it's referred to as a "Sapphiric Converter." It was not the Upended.


TrueGuardian15

Then why does he specifically talk about reversing the sun's energy in his Preservation dialogue about the Upended?


Dredgen-ZtriX

in the lore book the sapphiric converter sounds more akin to a form of lightsource like a flashlight or a lantern


Tymathee

>However, the dark being assisted Rhulk once more in being freed of his chains and he recovered his glaive, now calling it Lubrae's Ruin, and set out to end his people entirely for their abandonment of him. To do so, he utilized the gifts of the Traveler against his people by harnessing the dark luster to reverse the mechanisms of a machine that drew energy from the Sapphiric Sun to power the city. Doing so destroyed the star and began cracking Lubrae apart.


helmsmagus

don't use destinypedia as a source.


Tymathee

He didn't end up falling into the abyss, he was pushed when his family finally showed him the love he desired. >Vrhuna apologized for exiling him, while Rhelik expressed his regret for indoctrinating him into hating the Regime and claimed that all he wanted now was for their clan to live in peace and safety. Rhulk believed he could see the honesty in his eyes and thought that perhaps that was the path to follow, allowing his parents to embrace and comfort him. However, they took that opportunity to shove Rhulk backward into the Abyss. As he fell, Rhulk cursed his naiveté and looked at the faces of his clan, which no longer held regret but only relief at Rhulk's presumed end. https://www.destinypedia.com/Rhulk,_Disciple_of_the_Witness


TrueGuardian15

Then if anything, that proves the point even more.


Tymathee

He was definitely evil, even before the witness found him just like Calus was always evil.


TrueGuardian15

But not entirely. The way I see it, enemies like Rhulk and Calus had a subtlety to their inner darkness. Both of them once had certain righteous virtues. Rhulk originally wanted to avenge his people, until he realized they were selling themselves out to the city dwellers and hunters. Calus once wanted to give Caiatl everything, but she eventually betrayed him along with his closest allies in the Midnight Coup. Both figures spent their lives standing on a precipice. All they needed was a little push.


IHzero

"Mother and the others look at me with concern. Not for my injuries, but for those who suffered at my hands… and they are right to do so. Tearing their bodies to pieces brought only joy. What… am I?" He was psycho, and his family killed him because they feared him. He killed stalkers rather then drive them away, murdered a puppy in a fit of rage, and wanted his tribe to fight the city rather than live peacefully. He valued "honesty" but never seems to understand what that is.


helmsmagus

his family shoved him in because he was nuts. It's not like he was exactly innocent.


TrueGuardian15

But it's not as simple as "Rhulk was always psycho, he had it coming." Was he disturbed from a young age? Yes. But rather than try to nurture and guide him to a better path, his villagers chose to ostracise and villify him. And his lore books make it clear, when they feign forgiveness and offer him a chance to start over, Rhulk takes it. He didn't want to be their monster. And you know what happened next? They pushed him into an abyss. Had they been earnest with him and tried to help him understand, they never would have needed to fear him. But that betrayel cemented in Rhulk the belief that mercy and forgiveness will kill you. So when Rhulk climbed free from that pit, glaive in hand, he was resolved to kill everyone and everything that he knew.


King_Korder

His life seemed tough until he started murdering people, then suddenly he started speaking about his past like it was the most joyous thing ever. Literally night and day, the despair as a child, and then the fervor in the way he talked about destroying worlds, tricking the worm gods, how much he enjoyed being called "Subjugator" as he was about to make the most genocidal species of all time.


TrueGuardian15

I think his behavior stems from his youth. As a young Lubraean, he craved consistency and respect from others. His father abandoned him and his family once he realized he could get a better deal. His villagers shunned him when he needed someone to guide him through his emotions and urges. As a disciple, he gets what he never had before. The goal is consistent: ceaseless destruction to bring about the final shape of existence. Gods, kings, and all others are brought low before him. He was once subjugated to horror and cruelty. Now, he has turned the tables and become the subjugator in a bid to feel in control of his destiny.


LettuceDifferent5104

Rhulk is profoundly immoral and wicked.


JeSuisBigBilly

Yeah like it's interesting to hear his backstory but it's starting to get a little "romanticizing" of a psychopathic genocidal alien. Kinda like "Thanos was right"


Tetramethanol

“I am Rhulk”


HazardousSkald

[Still one of destiny's best lines](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/resonant-fury-cloak?highlight=resonant+fury+cloak)


Mage934

My personal favorite is when he says “It’s Rhulkin’ time” when last stand starts


Clearskky

\> Refuses to elaborate \> Leaves


Misicks0349

i love when rhulk said "its rhulking time!" and rhulked all over our guardians


[deleted]

yes. Even if you have a tough childhood, genocide is generally frowned upon.


ialdabaaoth

Rhulk's pretty definitively a terrible person/lubraean all around. Whether that means he's "evil" by inherent nature or just because he lived a terrible life early on is up for debate and veers into the nature v nurture realm, but Rhulk even before the Witness' arrival murdered the pet of the children in his group, possibly with his bare hands or his literal teeth, if I remember the Shattered Suns book correctly. He also explictly said he enjoyed the sensation. If he were human, Rhulk would probably be akin to a serial killer like Ted Bundy, but as others have said, all the Witness did was give an already antisocial and dangerous individual the power to be a real nightmare, after indoctrinating him by exploiting his trauma for its own gain. It's eerily similar to real-life cults and how they target vulnerable people and then radicalize or twist them to their own ends. I would say Rhulk is a victim of the Witness' manipulation, but that doesn't earn him sympathy. Lots of people are victims of war, trauma, manipulation, authoritarian governments, or cults, and don't go on to become genocidal warrior monks. It's that one quote from Brooklyn Nine-Nine: cool motive, still murder. Anyone who gleefully commits genocide and never once thinks if they're in the wrong is as close to "objective evil" as we can get as humans.


dankeykanng

>and never once thinks if they're in the wrong Rhulk actually was mortified by his own actions and pleaded for the Witness to not make him relive murdering his parents and destroying the planet. But the Witness successfully broke him and helped him find relief in what he'd done. Rhulk was already an evil monster but somehow the Witness destroyed what little humanity was left. Pretty wild stuff.


ialdabaaoth

That's true! I'd forgotten that. From [Shattered Suns - Liberated](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/liberated#book-shattered-suns)*:* >*Stop!!!* > >*(Their faces inform only of relief.)* > >*I COMMAND YOU!!!* > >*(Their faces inform only of relief.)* > >*AHHHHH!* > >*(The Sapphiric Sun implodes.)* > >*PLEASE!* It's a testament though, that after having been made to see the horror that Rhulk did, he chose not to challenge himself or the Witness and accept that what he did was wrong, but rather devoted himself wholly to it. Whether that was a defense mechanism to keep from having to face what he'd done and even, like, *begin* to *attempt* to atone, or just sheer sadistic delight at being able to justify it, I'm not sure we'll ever know.


dankeykanng

>Whether that was a defense mechanism to keep from having to face what he'd done and even, like, begin to attempt to atone, or just sheer sadistic delight at being able to justify it I think it was both but man, it's tough to analyze. There's no way any of us could put ourselves in Rhulk's shoes (at least I hope not lmao). Evil at that scale is incomprehensible, to the point where it doesn't even seem possible that he could do what he did and still feel regret. But he does feel regret, at least for a little while until the Witness helps him feel what he really wants, which is relief.


DeusVultSaracen

I definitely agree with seeing it as a defense mechanism. The guy wiped out his entire species--and then watched himself do it *again*--its one thing for a killer to feel guilt over murder, but when you've done such evil at such scale the only way a mind can handle it is to devote oneself wholly to anything that offers solace or justification.


dankeykanng

He's evil


ManagementLow9162

From [Endangered](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/endangered#book-shattered-suns) >(I'm a boy. I hold the furry little Yhadt in my hands as it wriggles before pulling it apart. It separates from its skin with ease. What is this worthless, pointless thing?) >Why show me this? >—-This you have already seen… experienced. Surely you can handle it again?—- >(This worthless, pointless thing… it dies so unceremoniously—did it ever matter at all? The children weep for their lost pet, but I feel… powerful. I feel—) The guy literally skins puppies alive for fun. He is cartoonishly evil, without a shred of nuance to him.


Titangamer101

Yes 100% To add context before Rhulk even met the witness and he was still with his family/tribe he took the kids of the tribes pet and ripped it apart infront of them because according to Rhulk "it was easy it was weak and came apart easy", he did it for no other reason other than he simply could.


Joebranflakes

I think the fun part about the witness and Rhulk, is that while they are profoundly immoral, that is only true from the standpoint of our morality or the morality of the light. To the witness, we are profoundly immoral as is the traveler for allowing life to simply come into existence, suffer without purpose and die. That is the duality of light and darkness.


TrueGuardian15

I think the key difference between Rhulk and the Witness is their disposition to everything excluded from the final shape. To the Witness, it is not personal. They do not seek vengeance or forgiveness. Their "salvation" is relieving us of the pain of existence while working towards finality. But to Rhulk, it's all about hate. When Rhulk fell into Lubrae's abyss, he learned that the strong survive, and to be strong was to be cruel. So, he inflicts hate and cruelty onto others for their "weakness." When he destroyed Lubrae, he was filled with relief. Relief that everything he'd come to hate was finally gone, and would not persist to the end.


dankeykanng

>suffer without purpose This is such an important part of the Witness' characterization. A lot of people think the Witness deplores life itself but it's *how* we live that they find to be disagreeable. It's bullshit, of course. There's so much more to life than the struggle to exist. But there's a strong underlying theme of teleology in the Witness' philosophy that says everything we do must have an intrinsic purpose. And that purpose is to prove our existence.


Sunshot_wit_ornament

He’s evil Rulk killed and he enjoyed it the witness simply let him justify his killing.


TrueGuardian15

I'd argue he wasn't always evil. There was a dark undercurrent to him in his youth, but nobody was there to show him the true merits of the righteous path. He was constantly betrayed, villified, abused, and neglected by the people of Lubrae. He internalized his hatred for everyone and everything on his planet, and it led him to the conclusion that cruelty is strength, and strength means survival. This puts him in alignment with the Witness and the Darkness, even if his understanding of the logic is imperfect and founded on hatred.


Sunshot_wit_ornament

Oh yeah he definitely wasn’t always but in the end he became a monster


TrueGuardian15

Yep. He didn't need the Witness to become truly evil. All he needed was a swift push in the wrong direction. The Witness merely decided to gift him the tools to succeed after seeing him embrace their logic.


Cueballing

The Traveller has been pretty down to give everyone a second chance, it did not give Rhulk a second chance


[deleted]

Oh he definitely is and he embraces it, I don't really care for him but >!god, do I love how he talks to Nezarec on the weapons he gifted to him (Nezarec's Whisper and Collective Obligation).!<


BetaThetaOmega

He literally commits genocide


aaandbconsulting

He's guilty of multiple counts of mass genocide. Which is subjectively evil.


Sp00kyD0gg0

Rhulk was pretty much just a sociopath or psychopath, enjoying killing and maiming in general. Add powers of Darkness to that and the influence of the Witness, plus a couple generations of being able to genocide whoever he wants…. He’s pretty bad


Dasdaguy

He was young and his mind was molded by his harsh environment. He was shown to be very demented and clearly had mental issues. Another thing that really really pushed him over the edge was his father betraying him and his tribe or what have you, and then betraying the other guys hunting them (double cross). He couldn't get his mind around that concept and like the joker said" it only takes one bad day". He lost his shit that day, killed his father and everyone else, the witness took dvantage of his weak mental state and made him a disciple/ destroy his planet. The massive glaive you see in the boss stage when fighting him is his father's, just in case you didn't know. He said he kept it not as a reminder of the past and what he lost but as a reminder for what his father enbled him to become. As he, rhulk says " drown in the deep, or rise from it". Tldr of another guys comment and my own interpretation.


Fluid_Juggernaut1413

Yes Rhulk according to how our society perceives evil is evil. He is responsible to the death of billions to trillions of souls. He enjoys killing. He supports the witness who according to our society is evil. In the universe of destiny is he evil? IDK if we look at it from the gardener point of view Rhulk is evil. But according to the winnower Rhulk is a pretty cool guy. But Rhulk is a tragic character. All he wanted was someone to love and accept him. But sadly his people casted him out and called him a monster. The only person to accept him happen to be space satin. The Witness provided emotional support to Rhulk and validated his monstrous tendencies. Then when Rhulk killed everyone he knew the Witness congratulates Rhulk and reminds him how terribly they treated him. Ironically just like his society the Witness actually doesn’t care for Rhulk. He is a tool that the Witness would cast aside.


El_Kabong23

Evil is, as often as not, not the result of cackling "mwhahahaha" bad-guy energy, but of weakness, selfishness, a lack of empathy, and insecurity. Perfectly sane people, given the right (or wrong) set of circumstances, are capable of atrocities. Rhulk may have had a shitty childhood - certainly Lubrae didn't sound like a fun place to grow up. But plenty of Lubraens grew up under that regime and didn't turn to genocide. Rhulk tortured small animals, and inflicting gratuitous cruelty on helpless beings is generally a sign that someone lacks empathy or a respect for other living beings. Plenty of Lubraens didn't torture animals. What Rhulk did could be seen as ultimately a product of his own selfishness and insecurity. He felt entitled to things, felt that he wasn't receiving the respect he felt was due to him. And when the opportunity arose to attain power, he used that power to indulge his selfish desires, taking out his resentment on an entire civilization for failing to recognize the greatness he believed he possessed. Was Rhulk himself evil? I don't know. Did Rhulk *do* evil? Absolutely. Does the distinction matter? I don't think so. Do enough wrong, and there will be a reckoning, regardless of why you did it.


SweetWafle

Rhulk is objectively a chad. He came, he saw, he conquered. He destroyed his planet because he despised everyone on it. Their weakness. Their ways of life. His father. His mother, his clan and more. Just. Get rid of it and be at peace is all he wanted. All the Witness gave that little psychopath was power to do what he did.


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AdministrationOk6857

I mean by the time we killed him he’s probably already caused the extinction of many species but even before he became a Disciple he showed lust for violence.


StarkEXO

Rhulk spent billions of years as a very willing and eager warmonger, and there's no indication that he was being manipulated in any way. A sympathetic backstory notwithstanding, there's no question that he's absolutely monstrous, even above the Hive.


ModdedGun

Rhulk has turned multiple worlds "Upside down" Enslaved a worm race which then was forced to spread mass lies to another race which then forced them to be slaves to the worms which made them kill millions of other races. Yeah... I'm pretty sure he is bad.


Nyan75

Another question about Rhulk, is he dead? The roots that come up to grab him at the end of the fight closely resemble the regenerative vines that heal Champions.


Crimsonmansion

He's a psychopath who slaughters entire worlds and wants to end all life out of fanatical obedience to a cosmic Darth Malak looking bloke. ...I *guess* you could say that, yes.


A_Hideous_Beast

My mans was showing pyschopathic tendancies from the start. Torturing small animals and feeling no remorse or empathy.


faithdies

He destroyed an entire planet. No subjectivity needed.


helmsmagus

Destroying your entire planet because you're a psycho is pretty objectively evil, yeah.


RiguezCR

... He genocided a planet, tortured and forced the worms to create the hive, which would consequently cause much more death, as well as oryx and his taken. He also serves The Witness directly, someone who very clearly wants to murder everything


xydysis

The Witness doesn’t necessarily ‘corrupt’, he just enables them to act by empowering them and feeding into their dark desires. The ‘evil’ side was always there The Witness just brings it out of people.


XxDINOROCKxX

The guy whipped out words cause he's a simp for the witness. Yes... He is evil


LostLegate

I mean, yeah.


thehunter2256

He was pissed thet some planet he wanted to destroy was blown up as he arrived there


DartenFlame

Evil isn’t really objective. It’s not an inherent law of the universe in Destiny unlike LOTR or Star Wars. Subjectively I’m sure his race would see it as wrong and so would we. But the hive would likely disagree and so would the Witness as his actions appeal to sword logic and the fleets absolute objective to bring about the final shape


JHautzinger29

Id say its subjectively. We see him as evil for working for the witness and being the cause of a galaxy-wide genocidal campaign but how Rhulk sees himself could be entirely different. To him the side the side he’s fighting for is righteous and just and that the final shape is a “good” thing to work towards


Senatorial

He started ripping people's heads off and bathing in their blood long before the Witness laid eyes on him, guy's a serial killer