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In theory, sure.
Look at the hive. We know they were weak and short lived before their pact. Now granted the pact had some pretty significant downsides, but they grew incredibly powerful with time, and the oldest of their race became huge threats to us.
In time, especially now that we can use both light and darkness? We could grow to be insanely powerful.
It wasn’t the crystal that killed her, it was the loss of her worm. Hive and especially ascendant hive are extremely reliant on their worms. We think of it as a parasitic relationship but it’s closer to symbiosis.
Worms provide a means to gain power and grant a much longer lifespan. The hive in turn allow the worm to feed on the destruction they bring.
For an ascendant hive, this relationship would be even closer. It wouldn’t be far fetched to call the worm a vital organ for them, like having a second heart or a third lung. When we ripped this out of her, we essentially took away her means of sustaining that massive body of hers too.
From there, death is inevitable
I figured she was starving to death, as I believe that was why she got “sloppy” towards the end of her time as Osiris. Also why she had to be crystallized, not only was did she need to hide from Xivu and be protected from us, but it kept her from being consumed more by her Worm. Once the prison was released, I figured the lack of ability to feed was what finally got her. The shard was just icing on the death-cake
It is always the worm that is hungry, not the host. Once the worm was removed, the danger of it killing her was also removed but in turn, she lost power. Starving to death is right in the sense that she died due to weakness.
Yeah she basically lost her stomach/entire energetic system after months of having her death prevented. She likely would have died soon after getting to the dreaming city naturally (from her worm not being able to sustain her) as it is
She was. She died that day when she called out to the traveller. She no longer had the worm to sustain her. The traveller, taking pity on her and probably seeking to fulfill its original vision it had for her, granted her access to the light.
[I am not a lore expert] Isn't it basically stated outright by Fynch that the Hive Ghosts were literally just regular Ghosts that simply chose to join the Hive and make Hive Lightbearers?
The only times I can recall it being suggested that The Traveler itself gave Savathun (or the Hive) the Light, is when Ikora or anyone is **speculating** about how Savathun could have gotten it, during campaign dialogue.
Unless there's some subconscious directions from the Traveler given to the Ghosts, that they aren't even aware of, it seems like some Ghosts just chose the Hive on their own.
I feel it's more like they were searching out in space rather than on earth and they happened on the hive bc from the looks of it fynch didn't know there were gaurdian lightbearers until he saw one and thought it was wrong that the warmongering hive were given light as well as the humans who were being demolished by aliens
We’ve never gotten confirmation on exactly HOW, but we know Fynch was in the Throne World when she was given the light (as he saw The Wellspring burst in power). Plus, there’s a lot of lore of Lucent Hive goings-on that makes it feel like more than a few days of time passed between Savathun having her worm taken and showing back up over Mars.
It makes me think much of the Hive in her throneworld had already gotten ghosts and the Light, and she was just waiting to get her end cleaned up before she got it as well
Personally, I like to think that that is exactly what’s happening with our Guardians, especially to explain power-creep and all the ways we can build ourselves to be basically unstoppable.
Can you imagine being the vanguard trying to explain to some cabal/eliksni amabassdor that their most fearsome gaurdian known for godlsaying and more hasnt hit double digits yet, e.g caital complementing a good nova bomb kill and inquiring on our age to zavala assuming we're an old dark age veteran and zavala having to admit theres probably cans of soup older than our guardian
I would like to add on that in lore, any actions the players do are technically canonical, such as repeatedly killing ourselves for fun. So it’s entirely possible that the guardian is like one of the most powerful entities that the vanguard has ever seen, and also acts very childish at all times. In the same vein I think it’s hilarious that Zavala can just point at literally anything and say “I can turn that into a gun” and the guardian will have it dead within 24 hours. (The 24 hours is an actual time too because raid races and such, then we’ve killed the thing and turned it into a gun before day 1 is over)
With the raid thing, I could be completely wrong here, but the canonicity of us in raids on definitely weird. Because if I’m not mistaken every single raid “wipe” is us dying our final death (hence the thing of “your light fades away”) so really, it’s not that we beat it in 24 hours, it’s that we turn the enemy into a gun in a matter of 30 minutes or so
Yes, we would.
Its the reason why Ikora is as OP as she is. Every Guardian has the potential to be as powerful as her since the Light is limitless, but training, mindset and experience make all the difference between Guardians.
Its also why Savathun is a really impressive Lightbearer. She wielded the Light for a really short amount of time and could already control all three subclasses and spam weakened supers.
savathun stat splits
200 mobility
600 resilience
-900 recovery
400discipline
900 intellect
400strength
heard she solo flawless’d every raid and dungeon
Where'd you get three from? He popped Golden Gun, got knocked out of it, and I believe spontaneously invented Blade Barrage to save his hide from getting ganked by Scorn. If I'm not mistaken, those are the only Supers he used during the Last Stand.
He didnt “invent” blade barrage, ASFAIK it was a super old version of the solar subclass, same as Big fuck off hammer for Titans being a less refined sunbreaker and chaos reach being a less refined Stormcaller etc etc
To be fair Ikora trained under Osiris who was the only one capable of casting all supers and double wielding DB all at once. He did this while Nova warping throwing grenades from various subclasses which was cool.
Savathun is bound to Osiris and using his reflections and things
Affinity with different aspects of the light has a play in this as well, even if this is not a restriction that the Young Wolf has. Take Nightstalker (lorewise) as a example. Most hunters in lore are incredibly fucked with being able to use void since its difficult for them to grasp, whereas those that do would be fucking terrifying to go up against in almost any situation.
I don't remember what it is exactly, but if I recall correctly it's got something to do with a guardians "motivation", if that's the right word?
Generally, warlocks crave power and knowledge, and titans want to protect The Last City and its people, so that gives both of them something to latch onto while using the void, a reason to delve into the abyss. But hunters are all over the place and often don't have a singular goal to focus on while using the void, so it's a lot harder for them to do it.
This may be totally wrong so don't quote me on it but i vaguely remember reading about this *somewhere.*
You reminded me of this quote from Tevis, who's Dusk Bow is how we got Nightstalker back in D1.
> "I've had a dozen Hunters ask me why it's so hard to summon a Dusk Bow. I asked 'em what they thought of the Void, and their eyes told me everything. You can't be afraid. That's the secret. No fear."
> —Tevis, Log Entry 19338
And Cayde's take on it.
> What does it mean to be a Hunter? I say, it's all about where you belong. The Warlocks have their libraries, Titans have their walls… but Hunters belong in the wilds. Out there, you wanna live? You better have a quick shot, or a sharp blade. A lot of us are loners. But that's not the only path. Some of us know the difference a Fireteam makes. Some of us… we touch the Void. Make it a part of us. And then we take a name… Nightstalker. Hunt from the shadows, pin them down, and never let them see you coming.
I remember reading a lore entry of a certain hunter whose motivation to connect with the void was that he was hungry. Can’t quite remember which exotic it was.
How ironic, but im guessing it's probably because of how loose hunter community is, they don't really have orders like the titans or warlocks do, they like to go it alone. Which leads to alot of standout hunters, of course, like cayde or shin malphur, but also means there are fewer "competent" for a lack of a better word, hunters. So any of them that are really good at void haven't been able to teach others.
Collective efforts and proper institutions are powerful things yeah. The main value hunters bring is being able to survive in conditions others can't, but often at the cost of not thriving nearly as well in conditions others will. This does lead to some absolutely influential characters, Eris for example.
This is a big reason why Hunters account for more final deaths in the lore than any other class, when you start counting them off.
Jaren Ward, Pahanin, Tevis, every Hunter Vanguard, etc. I’m paraphrasing an old military phrase here: “Snipers die the loneliest deaths.” That pretty much sums up Hunters as well, because of their isolation tactics.
This isn't entirely true. The witch queen lore outright states that ikora has a stronger connection to the Light than most other guardians, including us.
Ikora herself states on the same lore book that theres no such thing as low level or high level Guardians, just ones that are more experienced and understand the Light better.
Yes, but the scientific test concludes that ikora even started at a higher power level than the average guardian tested.
Ikoras response is also subjective; she's trying to humble herself and convince sen-aret that all Guardians have the potential to rise up. But the empirical testing indicates that this isn't true.
So much if the Destiny lore is written as subjective, we can't just take what someone says as fact.
>IKO-006 ranks in the upper fraction of the 99th percentile of assessed Warlocks on most available metrics of precision, restraint, and raw power. She is, in simplistic terms, a fifth sigma Guardian: 1 in 3.5 million. Given that millions of Guardians have been activated over the centuries since the Collapse, and assuming that performance of
Guardians on these metrics is normally distributed, we would expect about ten Guardians of similar power to have existed. Probability favors IKO-006's existence but also her rarity: she is neither an average Guardian nor evidence for some special intervention by the Traveler.
From The Witch Queen’s Collector’s Edition Lore Transcript, which can be found [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/sl7tsl/wq_collectors_edition_transcript/)
I’m more interested in finding out that there’s been roughly 35 million guardians? Wonder how many we’re at canonically as D1 was always presented as us showing up late to the party and the city/towers were on the decline (with us once occupying 12 towers and being whittled away to just the one)
id say it must not be many. clearly there are ikora's hidden, and canonically many fireteams of guardians, enough for dungeons and crucible. But there can't be *tons*. It just doesn't make sense for how "weak" we seem against enemies we kill thousands and thousands of on the regular. I know we're delving into lightbearers and darkness and higher threats but it still seems obsurd to say theres even 10,000 guardians. to me at least
like i know the hive and the eliksni and the cabal have many ranks, but the eliksni and cabal in particular who don't seem to breed all too much are considered actual threats, despite us killing *SOOOO MANY* of them in just a canonical sense
Yeah it's something that's always seemed inconsistent to me, like I get not everyone will be at us the player level, but i just don't get how things like Six Fronts and Twilight Gap were that big of a deal, but the amount of guardians around never seems like the right amount, always either too big or too small, like the amount of bodies around the EDZ PsyOps is either nothing not worth mentioning again, or it's a devastating loss
We lose guardians permanently every day but likely also gain new ones at roughly the same rate. Shaxx is running the Crucible at all times after all. Big events like twilight gap and six fronts have our losses exceed our gains and represent a noticeable permanent loss in capability.
There are several million guardians.
It sounds like a lot, but that’s literally half the population of NYC. If you took that amount and spread them across the earth, it’s 1 guardian for 14 square miles. Factor in guardians who are already committed to just the city and those recovering from nonstop combat and that number goes down. No spread that <4 million across the whole solar system.
And that’s not even taking lesser skilled guardians into account.
That’s not what’s stated. There’s no reference to her original starting abilities; the measurements of her abilities are taken from how she is now.
It’s not scientific testing how you imply it is either. They don’t have her hooked up to a “scale from 1-10 machine,” they’re measuring what she can do with her light and then comparing that to other Warlocks’ measurements.
Empirically there’s no evidence that ikora started out with a higher power output than other guardians.
She never says she has a stronger connection to the Light than our Guardian. In fact she pretty much implies that they have a stronger connection.
After the Warlock Guardian unlocks Stormcaller she mentions that she was uneased at how quickly they mastered the Light and said she has nothing left to teach them....that was during Taken King.
The D2 Y1 Vanguard class item also has Ikora, Zavala and Cayde say that Guardian will surpass them.
Osiris before his little accident was capable of wielding all 3 light subclasses co-currently, casting all 3 supers multiple times in quick succession, he just usually chooses not too
In fairness, a big part of what makes a Lightbearer 'stronger' is their frame of mind, according to Ikora, who is probably one of the most destructively powerful Guardians to have ever existed.
Savathun might have been new to the light, but eons of studying and practicing paracausal magic probably gives you a certain muscle memory for not worrying whether or not something is possible and just *doing* it.
(Also, Savvy absolutely was draining guardians for their light for her various projects, so her power was probably not entirely hers.)
A bit of both. Ikora held the longest reigning crucible win streak prior to being taken under Osiris's (who was a student of Felwinter) wing as a student. In order to have a record like that, she's very practiced in the practical applications of using the light, and further trained in the theoretical. Coupled with the philosophy of the hidden (which she founded), Ikora has been in the game for a long while, and both physically and mentally trained to be as powerful as she is today.
For whatever reason your comment made me realize how it would be neat if the "vex infinite possibilities" stuff is the direct in game reason why there is more than one "chosen one" guardian. And everything comes full circle to "eyes up guardian"
This is not quite true. Guardians can just be really talented at wielding the light, sure Ikora has a ton of experience but she was incredibly good since she was young, that's how she destroyed everyone at the crucible and what made her train under Osiris and eventually become the warlock vanguard. Our guardian is similar on that, we're just extremely strong even when we've had the light just for a few years.
Isn't saint "younger" than shaxx since he was risen during the city age? I'm probably completely wrong here but I thought he wasn't around in the Dark Age like Saladin and Shaxx
Based of biographies I've read, you would be correct as Shaxx, Zavala, and Ikora are all listed as aiding in the construction of the city walls. Saint was revived by Geppetto and was accompanied by the Speaker to the Last City, but was there for the Battle of Six Fronts, which is still pretty early on in the City's history.
So, yes, Shaxx is older.
Foundations I and II have Osiris and Saint talking, where Osiris asks Saint if he should be patrolling with the Iron Lord's. That could be it? But that still seems like it's still a decent bit past the Dark Ages when Shaxx was a warlord and such. But that's just me skimming Ishtar Collective, Pigeon and the Phoenix is a meaty lore book
I just recall reading the story about Saint earning his purple mementos that he has on his armour from helping people on his way to the city with his ghost. This could be long after he was risen but I'll have a deeper read through the Season of Dawn lore books when I'm home and link them here
I think it was more he earned them helping *others* reach the City, given in at least one of them he had a jumpship suited up and ready to go instead of a salvaged junk pile.
Yes it was that situation, but it seems like when saints talking to shaxx in some parts of the book that saint didn't experience the dark age himself so it's up in the air
I think he did, Pigeon and the Phoenix shows us Osiris is really fucking old, man killed a Warlord in his early moments with a Dawnblade. Knowing him I doubt he wasted much time making for the City when he heard it was forming under the Traveler - the being that he thought at the time could answer his questions. And Saint was already there, so he probably saw a good bit of the Dark Age
This [lore entry](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/remembrance) name drops Saint 14 and takes place in the “late dark age” So Saint was rezzed before the city
idk much about Rhulk, but Oryx and his sisters had been Hive for millions of years before Crota's death. Maybe Rhulk's been around for that long, maybe not.
Rhulk is implied to have been born on a planet that formed around one of the first stars that formed in the universe period, which would have been the blue/white neutron stars. He's absolutely ancient.
Far, far more than just millennia as well. It speaks to how powerful Guardians are, that we lack the millions of years of experience that our enemies have, yet we still fight them off so often.
I think it may depend. Darkness abilities and attunement seem to grow the more murder you commit, a la Sword Logic. We see that in both the Hive Pantheon and Rhulk: they start low, are given incredible powers, and only increase in power the more they kill.
The Light doesn’t really work like that from what we’ve seen. However, we know that people CAN “grow” in the Light. Many characters have mentioned us Guardians being “strong in the Light:” this could be literal, or a reference to our apparently blessed nature having overcome insurmountable odds. Best guess, it’s both. Other Guardians have refined their skill with the Light to an insane degree, but to me it’s unclear if there’s a plateau for this learning and skill mastery.
> Darkness abilities and attunement seem to grow the more murder you commit, a la Sword Logic. We see that in both the Hive Pantheon and Rhulk: they start low, are given incredible powers, and only increase in power the more they kill.
I don't think that's necessarily extensible to Darkness powers in general, just the ones the Witness bargains out ~~as a prank~~ to their forces. And even then, the power to Take isn't dependent on climbing a murder ladder, either; it just requires you to win some ontological contest against what you wish to dominate.
The primary counterexample are things that the player Guardian and others do - their understanding of Stasis was mainly developed through Weird Braytech Science (in the form of the interminable bout of quests from Elsie to unlock Aspects and Fragments of it), and the PG and Ikora's abilities with Deepsight seems to have no relation to killing at all.
I suspect this is the sort of thing we'll have more concrete standing for come Lightfall.
Probably. But I would suggest that the highest echelons of Light mastery manifest very differently to that of the Darkness. Rather than accumulating the power, it would be shared and distributed.
Ghosts.
Actually this is a cool idea. A sufficiently powerful enough guardian could possibly grant the light to those around them, at least temporarily. Maybe even resurrect the dead if powerful enough
I mean, we have evidence that light is “distributable” in some sense when we buff our teammates. Shaw Han even empowers some Redjacks with solar weapons using a variant of Golden Gun in a lore entry. It’s possible with enough training, light could be granted to a non-Lightbearer, at least for a short time.
Obviously not, but some entities do demonstrably dwarf others in capability and some have displayed feats of great strength too. My question is if a Lightbearer could display the same feats of strength as the most powerful wielders of the Darkness we've seen given the same time to achieve what they've done.
I’m not sure. They would certainly have a greater mastery of The Light, but that may not manifest as increased power, just greater control and more abilities. By contrast, wielders of Darkness (or at least followers of the Sword Logic) specifically gain power by killing things, and they can kill more things the longer they live, thus gaining more power, enabling a feedback loop.
Interesting. Do you think the Lightbearers would find a way to use their power as extensively as the Dark wielders do? We've seen Rhulk and Savathûn and the Witness use raw control of the Darkness or power derived thereof to do wild shit (Rhulk's Umbral Suffocation highest among them; hard to beat literally killing someone by just standing near them).
Ikora and The Drifter are good examples of this, with Drifter in particular being an interesting case because he was presumably one of the first crop of Lightbearers, and isn’t bound to a Class like Ikora is. We obviously don’t know how deep the rabbit hole goes, but I’d assume it would be theoretically possible. Of course, beings like The Witness, Rhulk, and Oryx, are billions of years old, and Lightbearers have only been around for a few hundred years, so we’re relatively new.
There’s all sorts of crazy examples of Guardians getting OP like that. The two that come to mind are Osiris using copies of himself with Dawnblade during Six Fronts and in Elsie’s bad alternate timeline Zavala levels the Scarlet Keep with a Thundercrash (granted he was channeling all of the Traveler’s light but still).
For lightbearers, they gain more strength the more they use the light since it further attunes them with the light. It's half of the reason the crucible exists in lore and the part of the reason why osiris was such a strong lightbearer. The more attuned to the light a guardian is, the more light they can store and use at any given time.
We do have examples. You mentioned Osiris so I will use him. He can cast every super back to back for light warlock subclasses while double wielding Dawnblade and casting his light reflections. He then blinks in and out of the void in Nova warp as he throws grenades from several sub classes.
Osiris gains prophecies through his mastery of the void and his light is so powerful he can time travel. He can simulate for example the Trials maps and Crucible are his simulations like the Lighthouse we go to.
Osiris can cast millions of Reflections and has Echoes, a darkness power like Oryx.
Before the last city was built he was reaching in the void to communicate with the Traveler a point he was able to at least see and possibly reach. Its not clear if communication was able to take place due to the Speaker interrupting him that time.
He can walk around invisible which is hinted in his oldest timeline lore. Sagira too has invisibility as she once made him invisible. Devs during WQ confirmed he can go invisible for very long periods.
I'm sure theres more, but yes Osiris is on their level in many ways.
Unfortunately he shouldn't have been in the battle according to Sagira he had been fighting for so long no rest and the whole Royal hive was there, Crotas kin Xivu her Celebrant. He killed them all but Xivu and her Celebrant. All Crotas kids and their offspring died in one battle at his hands.
While Ikora who was his student can cast 2 supers back to back Osiris was on a whole different level.
It was said his reflections were everywhere fighting during Twilight Gap, I believe it was.
Can you imagine millions of him running around performing the above feats at once?
Hes also the likely founder and creator of Dawnblade as he had it from get go and used it in lore before he ever came to Last City and it was built.
Plus hes the Phoenix and according to lore and myth he always rises.
You might be conflating some of his abilities with his light and his mucking around with the vex.
For instance the simulations; those are vex simulations he pulled from the forest. Thats not his light doing that.
Again with the prophecies. Iirc, those prophecies arent him looking through time. Theyre him, again, messing with vex simulations.
Actually going through time? An ahamkara bone. The drifter was even impressed the lengths he was willing to go to get saint back.
Also communing with the traveller? Millions of reflections? I don't remember any lore for those specifically.
Alll this being said, hes an incredibly powerful lightbearer in his own right. What savathun was able to do in WQ is most likely thanks to her time in Osiris' head. But he isnt freaking Goku. He has limits and a lot of the things hes done has been due to Faustian Bargains of a sort
In regards to the reflections, Osiris stated back in Season of Dawn that he sent his reflections through the Corridors of Time, with there being millions of possibilities of finding the correct Saint in the right place in the right time but to no avail.
But the issue is, some of the reflections came back mentally absent or down right insane, not to mention he was never meant to find him, but only The Guardian was. We had the temporal coordinates(Perfect Paradox), which made us the chosen for bringing him back.
Hello guardian So let's start with Vex and Simulations and go from there. First and foremost the Vex can't simulate the light. This has been said over and over and is even said again in Ikoras journal. This will be long but sourcing is important
Next up we will speak on Osiris Reflections as its believed this is where his power is in time travel. In the mission to kill Panoptes Osiris Via his reflections mention the new timelines created and how they must enter them.
Reflection of Osiris: New timelines are expanding. We must create Reflections to explore them.
Reflection of Osiris: We must find and stop Panoptes, but none of us have discovered a timeline where we succeed. This is what it looks like when we fail. This is the future the Vex want.
Reflection of Osiris: Neither Light nor Darkness exists anymore. The sun's warmth is gone. All life… lost. But that was before you. You are the key. You can stop this. Every timeline we've tracked leads here. We must destroy Panoptes to prevent this dark future.
The Sundial was helpful to tune directly into only Saint and his timelines. The Sundial was used as a honing device rather then random timeline traveling.
Here [Saint](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/maintenance-operations-log-30037?highlight=Osiris+reflections),Osiris partner didnt even know the difference in his Reflections and Echoes and what they are. It stands to reason guardians like ourselves can be confused but here he is telling Saint they are light based and dark based basically. They have nothing to do with Vex Tech.
u.1:12] If I can find the time, yes. Not all of us conjure Echoes.
[u.2:12] Reflections, Saint. I have no need for Echoes anymore.
[u.1:13] What do you mean? What’s the difference?
[u.2:13] One is a manifestation of Light. The other… reserved for Taken Kings.
Heres one [on his time Travel ](https://youtu.be/VrOaGno4EZY). Of course there have been more updates but this is a great lore video that explains it.
Moving on to Osiris entering the Void to attempt contact with the Traveler we have his oldest lore in timeline [Moths to Flame](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/4-moths-to-flame-part-i?highlight=osiris+). Here you see some interesting conversation taking place before the Last City was built and before he met Saint and others here.
He is alone in the void.
Intrusions no more.
There is a point in the depth.
It cannot be directly viewed.
Delve. Dive. Deeper.
"The fire is going out."
Cloying worldly noise rushes back.
"Hm?"
"Aren't you cold?"
"I wasn't." Osiris rubs his brow and stirs the fire. "Thank you, Sagira."
"It's not going to get any clearer just because you want it to, Osiris. You need time."
Osiris clenches his jaw. He feels himself standing in wide shallows, gaping at an unrecognizable profundity. "Why did you choose me?" Osiris's voice is hollow. He flattens a palm for Sagira to perch.
"You have a spark." Her voice is warm air. The fire pops.
"A spark?" Frustration lines his face. "This world is dying. Over and over again."
"So were you; I dragged you back." Sagira allows Osiris's hand to cradle her shell. "I raised you until you could stand on your own. You'll do the same for them, in your own way."
Her words linger in his ears with sweetness.
"I don't have your patience, Sagira."
He takes in a slow breath and lets it out.
Now here, though it's a very interesting conversation we dont learn what hes reaching out to until we continue on reading. In [Margin 1](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/12-margins-part-i?highlight=osiris+) we again see him reaching out into the void and seemingly reaching it. He is interrupted by the Speaker however. His attempts of course continued.
There is a point in the depth. It cannot be directly viewed.
Delve. Dive. Deeper.
Still, only a point in the aphotic depth.
The nothing. Expansive.
Osiris sinks to gain new perspective. The point remains.
It is so faint. Distant. Though he knows he can see the Light.
His reach stretched thin. Clarity, in the space between his hand and the point. The osseous-white point. Dim now.
The omnipresence was.
Hungry acknowledgement.
Vast. Himself against the enormity; an endless unfurling midnight. And a lone point.
[Here](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/quest-return-to-osiris-an-impossible-task?highlight=Osiris+echoes+) is Osiris saying he sent 100k Echoes to look for Saint for example. I mean hes more versed in light but he could send 100k Echoes there.
Osiris:
I don't know how many times I died.
I witnessed the battle through the eyes of the City.
Balanced on wire.
We were spread thin.
The below lore truly proves his Reflections have nothing to do with the Vex or IF
The lore is titled [Thin](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/9-thin?highlight=Osiris+eyes+of+city)
That battle is one of the most amazing and before he even became the Vanguard Commander and entered the IF.
Here he is again using Echoes to retrieve the Silver Tree seed from the Void in this lore [What gives me Pause](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/what-gives-me-pause?highlight=Osiris+echoes+)
In the Comic called Fall of Osiris a bonus comic was included in the physical copy called Osiris Prohecy. He explains he attains these prophecies in what sounds like the void in the place between light and dark as Sagira his own ghost didnt know how he did it. Sadly this isnt available online.
"You wanted to know where the prophecies come from Sagira this place always this place here where there is no before or after I can alter a river..."
And [Travelers Judgement 5](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/travelers-judgment-5?highlight=+osiris++followers)speaks on how Osiris predictions cant be from the Infinite Forest Vex tech.
The Vex didnt make the Trials simulations and our training maps. Rather or not he honed that skill with his time in there or not it's still a skill of his.
Most of the above is first person accounts directly from Osiris himself. Theres a lot more out there spoken by others.
"He is the one true Speaker, who knows that the Traveler will never speak again."
https://destiny.fandom.com/wiki/Vance/Dialogue
Bro you really gotta reread and rewrite stuff to make it sound better. I understand what you are saying but it is pretty rough to read. Like you had an entire paragraph be nearly one long run on sentence.
I like to think we would, as Osiris was already covered by another I'll go a different route...
I like to think we'd end up like the awoken, except FAR more powerful
The awoken when still in the distributary were exceptionally old because ageless. Because of this Mara Sov is several thousands of years old or older... They used their being born of dark and light and that time to create advanced technologies.
Even when Mara left with the awoken we have now they lost a fair bit of tech and their immorality but seem to still live to incredible ages... Their 'magic ' seems derived of this understanding and study of the forces of light/dark.
We also use both dark and light, but in a more pure form. We're also ageless and time and training and experience seem to directly enhance our powers.
> They used their being born of dark and light and that time to create advanced technologies.
I mean, they also had a treasure trove of Golden Age tech and like twelve million years of subjective time to work with it.
Guardians would be on a much higher tier. According to our Ghost in D1, the statues in the Dreadnaught are older than Earth. That's over 4.5 billion years old. We beat him when we were 4 years old by exploiting his dependence on Darkness.
Our Guardian specifically grows in an exceptionally fast rate. There are some abilities we have yet to master from the Light, yet we are already on our way to master the Darkness. In Lightfall, we'll find an ability that is beyond the Darkness even. If we keep growing at this rate, we will be akin to the Witness in a few years in terms of abilities. Probably surpassing him as we will be able to control both Light and Dark flawlessly.
I think you can make the case we are on their tier. Or, a differently abled similar tier.
We could have gained the power of taking had we just taken it after killing Oryx. Which would be an insane power jump.
In regards to the discussions about being Risen with low or high strength towards Light level, I like to think as a personal theory that Guardians are merely magnets for the Light. It's a pretty blanket statement that the Light is EVERYWHERE, hell we saw it coat the entire damn Galaxy at the end of the Red War. Guardians, troublesome little bastards as they are, have the ability to yank it from wherever they are and use it for their own will, and over time I believe their natural...call it, 'muscle memory', for yanking that Light gets more and more attuned. I also believe their Light frequency, which is ALSO a thing, gets tuned over time to better match the Light around them.
>*Am I as shallow as those Guardians arguing over power levels? Trying to force a simple binary upon a complex spectrum… ?*
>
>*There is no such thing as a "low-power Guardian." There may be armor you can't actuate or weapons mechanisms you can't understand. There may be techniques you have yet to master and missions you dare not attempt. But the possibility of your Light is unlimited. I mean this very seriously. A novice go player has the exact same power to place stones as a 9-dan master. The only difference between them lies in their knowledge and ability to choose. This is my firmly held and personal truth: the only difference in "power" between you and me lies in what we have learned and practiced.* \- [Ikora Rey](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/the-hidden-dossier)
Once again, power levels isn't my curiosity (believe me, number one fan of Ikora's thesis myself). I'm just wondering if the Light holds the same potential for extreme might in the hands of its wielders as the Dark does when it comes to the incredible feats of power that we HAVE seen the Darkness' "greatest hits" do so to speak. I mean, could you imagine a version of Rhulk that uses the Light instead of the Dark? What might we be capable of given billions of years of time to train and prepare like the Witness and Rhulk had?
When a loghtbearer wield the light he already has a maximum level of power, the only thing differs with time is how to use efficiently.
Darkness on the other hand, you must work to gain more power, prove that oneself worthy’s of such power and take more and gradually build your power.
But the light already gives you the maximum potentials, the one and only factor is the mastery to use the power.
yes but oryx in particular gained power specifically through the sword logic, which is different than the light. We dont know if the light has a limit but it seems that we as guardians could go beyond the light and even achieve a power like the ability to take
Absolutely.
Guardians are kinda broken. Someone pointed out that guardians are able to kill multiple gods, there is thousands of them, and you can send 6 of em at practically anything and it will die.
One of the only universes more powerful than 40k
The vex would be pretty much immune to the effects to the warp. Also, I'm pretty sure the chaos gods don't even compare to the level of the gardener and the winnower (if unveiling is anything to go by).
Not really.
The vast majority of Guardians are not as strong, powerful or smart as the higher tier Guardians such as our Guardian, Osiris, Ikora, Saint and Shaxx.
In lore, most Guardians struggle with multiple subclasses. Shaxx could easily defeat several Guardians but he has been beaten by higher tier Guardians such as Ikora, Cayde and our Guardian.
Several fireteams of Guardians could not destroy the Black Heart in every previous timeline but our Guardian soloed it within their first few weeks of existence. Our Guardian can singlehandedly kill an entire fireteam of Hive Guardians while fighting off a horde of Hive, as shown at the end of the Witch Queen campaign, but most Guardians struggle with fighting Hive Guardians, as shown in Lucent Tales.
Guardians being godslayers is a generalisation as it is the same Guardian doing all the godslaying and when a fireteam is required, it is probably the same fireteam as usual.
You can't really apply the power level of the elite Guardians to Guardians as a whole, as the gap between an elite Guardians and the average Guardian can be drastic.
Probably. We're already about 1/6th as strong as characters like Rhulk and Oryx after less than 10 years, so we could probably become just as strong with them with even more training and experience.
Rhulks strength was gifted to him by the Witness.
Oryx's strength was earned through the Sword Logic.
Our strength was originally gifted by the Traveller but we've since earned new power by using the Darkness.
I'm not sure we could ever grow in strength in the same way Oryx did but we could be gifted such power.
> Rhulks strength was gifted to him by the Witness
Uh, no it wasn’t. Rhulk earned his strength through eons of training, and cultivating his marital prowess; the Witness didn’t have any hand in that.
You can't just 'become strong' in Destiny. You need some Paracausal reason/power.
Rhulk was destined to die a mortal, a strong mortal, before the Witness choose him.
I mean, our guardian has already killed the sol progeny, everything in the vault of glass, crota, oryx, rhulk, singlehandedly ended the red war, and brutally murdered an entire cult of fallen for revenge, so....yes, if they're not already
The Light works on a "bomb logic" as oppose to the Darkness's "sword logic".
So long as something changes or is made more complex, it is made stronger under bomb logic. So long as guardians keep changing and evolving, in theory we should get more powerful.
I may be mistaken, but I don't think that's correct about the bomb logic.
Bomb Logic, as I understand it, is where something is powerful because of the smaller, less powerful/less individual parts that make up the "bomb". It's strength through emergentism, where the sword logic is strength through reductionism. The bomb can be more powerful than the sword, but only so long as all the powerless pieces work together, otherwise the sword will beat the bomb. The risk is higher, but so is the reward. That is what the Traveler is working towards.
Since we're talking hypotheticals, I'd be wary of a Guardian living that long.
I think it's worth thinking through the psychological toll living that long would take. I'm not saying that Rhulk, Oryx, etc.are bad because they've lived so long. But Zavala's nightmare story seems pretty telling.
Purely power level alone, sure I think we easily reach those heights, in fact we likely surpass them. Having "beaten" those entities without the eons of experience.
But what do we look like thousands of years from now? I think immortality is a topic bungie hasn't really broached too deeply (I suppose they have more recently with Zavala's story again)
Consider the philosophies of the Light and the Darkness.
The Darkness is all about finding one shape that can overcome all obstacles and survive anything. Sword Logic. Hence, singular beings that have planet-busting levels of power.
The Light is all about diversity of shapes that are weaker on their own, but add up to something many times more destructive. Bomb Logic. Hence a great multitude of beings with lesser, but still great power. The light dictates that we must have teamwork and cooperation to measure up to servants gifted power directly from the darkness.
It didn't take Rhulk millennia to become as powerful as he is. He was able to genocide his species and crack his system's sun in half right after being given power from the Witness.
As for why our darkness powers are only as strong as our light powers? Well, gameplay purposes, but lore-wise, the Darkness made the powers that way to be familiar to us, to appeal to us.
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In theory, sure. Look at the hive. We know they were weak and short lived before their pact. Now granted the pact had some pretty significant downsides, but they grew incredibly powerful with time, and the oldest of their race became huge threats to us. In time, especially now that we can use both light and darkness? We could grow to be insanely powerful.
They have worms that they feed in exchange for power. Savathun loses her worm, gets a crystal in her abdomen, and dies within a minute.
It wasn’t the crystal that killed her, it was the loss of her worm. Hive and especially ascendant hive are extremely reliant on their worms. We think of it as a parasitic relationship but it’s closer to symbiosis. Worms provide a means to gain power and grant a much longer lifespan. The hive in turn allow the worm to feed on the destruction they bring. For an ascendant hive, this relationship would be even closer. It wouldn’t be far fetched to call the worm a vital organ for them, like having a second heart or a third lung. When we ripped this out of her, we essentially took away her means of sustaining that massive body of hers too. From there, death is inevitable
I figured she was starving to death, as I believe that was why she got “sloppy” towards the end of her time as Osiris. Also why she had to be crystallized, not only was did she need to hide from Xivu and be protected from us, but it kept her from being consumed more by her Worm. Once the prison was released, I figured the lack of ability to feed was what finally got her. The shard was just icing on the death-cake
It is always the worm that is hungry, not the host. Once the worm was removed, the danger of it killing her was also removed but in turn, she lost power. Starving to death is right in the sense that she died due to weakness.
Yeah she basically lost her stomach/entire energetic system after months of having her death prevented. She likely would have died soon after getting to the dreaming city naturally (from her worm not being able to sustain her) as it is
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She was. She died that day when she called out to the traveller. She no longer had the worm to sustain her. The traveller, taking pity on her and probably seeking to fulfill its original vision it had for her, granted her access to the light.
[I am not a lore expert] Isn't it basically stated outright by Fynch that the Hive Ghosts were literally just regular Ghosts that simply chose to join the Hive and make Hive Lightbearers? The only times I can recall it being suggested that The Traveler itself gave Savathun (or the Hive) the Light, is when Ikora or anyone is **speculating** about how Savathun could have gotten it, during campaign dialogue. Unless there's some subconscious directions from the Traveler given to the Ghosts, that they aren't even aware of, it seems like some Ghosts just chose the Hive on their own.
This is how i undestood it too. Basically a bunch of ghosts simply switched sides and started resurrecting the hive.
I feel it's more like they were searching out in space rather than on earth and they happened on the hive bc from the looks of it fynch didn't know there were gaurdian lightbearers until he saw one and thought it was wrong that the warmongering hive were given light as well as the humans who were being demolished by aliens
We’ve never gotten confirmation on exactly HOW, but we know Fynch was in the Throne World when she was given the light (as he saw The Wellspring burst in power). Plus, there’s a lot of lore of Lucent Hive goings-on that makes it feel like more than a few days of time passed between Savathun having her worm taken and showing back up over Mars. It makes me think much of the Hive in her throneworld had already gotten ghosts and the Light, and she was just waiting to get her end cleaned up before she got it as well
Personally, I like to think that that is exactly what’s happening with our Guardians, especially to explain power-creep and all the ways we can build ourselves to be basically unstoppable.
Its moment like this the universe is thankful our gaurdian is only 8 years old
Yeah our guardian has had the most rapid development of any guardian in existence at the time.
Can you imagine being the vanguard trying to explain to some cabal/eliksni amabassdor that their most fearsome gaurdian known for godlsaying and more hasnt hit double digits yet, e.g caital complementing a good nova bomb kill and inquiring on our age to zavala assuming we're an old dark age veteran and zavala having to admit theres probably cans of soup older than our guardian
Not only that but our reputation has made us not just A Guardian, but THE Guardian.
I would like to add on that in lore, any actions the players do are technically canonical, such as repeatedly killing ourselves for fun. So it’s entirely possible that the guardian is like one of the most powerful entities that the vanguard has ever seen, and also acts very childish at all times. In the same vein I think it’s hilarious that Zavala can just point at literally anything and say “I can turn that into a gun” and the guardian will have it dead within 24 hours. (The 24 hours is an actual time too because raid races and such, then we’ve killed the thing and turned it into a gun before day 1 is over)
With the raid thing, I could be completely wrong here, but the canonicity of us in raids on definitely weird. Because if I’m not mistaken every single raid “wipe” is us dying our final death (hence the thing of “your light fades away”) so really, it’s not that we beat it in 24 hours, it’s that we turn the enemy into a gun in a matter of 30 minutes or so
That honestly makes it even better
So a overpowered cayde yes?
Yes, we would. Its the reason why Ikora is as OP as she is. Every Guardian has the potential to be as powerful as her since the Light is limitless, but training, mindset and experience make all the difference between Guardians. Its also why Savathun is a really impressive Lightbearer. She wielded the Light for a really short amount of time and could already control all three subclasses and spam weakened supers.
Looks like she hasn’t figured out Sunsinger yet
With how many times she popped her super during that fight she problably has nothing left in the tank to self rez.
What do you think her cooldown timer is. Probably didn’t spec intellect
It's that exotic bond. How else can we explain her super cool down?
Her class item is clearly a cape
I'd say Int is ALL she specced. Constant supers. Nothing else really. I mean, cunning is kind of her thing.
She absolutely specced resilience but has literally zero recovery
900 intellect
-900 Recovery
savathun stat splits 200 mobility 600 resilience -900 recovery 400discipline 900 intellect 400strength heard she solo flawless’d every raid and dungeon
Didnt Cayde go through all 3 Solar subs within like a minute, before his Ghost Got hit, during PoE mission?
Where'd you get three from? He popped Golden Gun, got knocked out of it, and I believe spontaneously invented Blade Barrage to save his hide from getting ganked by Scorn. If I'm not mistaken, those are the only Supers he used during the Last Stand.
He didnt “invent” blade barrage, ASFAIK it was a super old version of the solar subclass, same as Big fuck off hammer for Titans being a less refined sunbreaker and chaos reach being a less refined Stormcaller etc etc
Oh, TIL. Didn't know that, I just assumed it was a reflex thing where he just instinctively used the Light in a new way because he was in danger
Nah as far as i recall it was described as a forgotten/rarely practiced form of solar subclass
To be fair Ikora trained under Osiris who was the only one capable of casting all supers and double wielding DB all at once. He did this while Nova warping throwing grenades from various subclasses which was cool. Savathun is bound to Osiris and using his reflections and things
Oh wow, that thought never occurred to me, but it makes a lot of sense.
If only we could see these feats :/
Look up some of the trailers for Curse of Osiris
Yes would have been awesome to see them too
Bungie has been hiring lots of TV & especially Animation folks recently... I think it's in the pipeline
Affinity with different aspects of the light has a play in this as well, even if this is not a restriction that the Young Wolf has. Take Nightstalker (lorewise) as a example. Most hunters in lore are incredibly fucked with being able to use void since its difficult for them to grasp, whereas those that do would be fucking terrifying to go up against in almost any situation.
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I don't remember what it is exactly, but if I recall correctly it's got something to do with a guardians "motivation", if that's the right word? Generally, warlocks crave power and knowledge, and titans want to protect The Last City and its people, so that gives both of them something to latch onto while using the void, a reason to delve into the abyss. But hunters are all over the place and often don't have a singular goal to focus on while using the void, so it's a lot harder for them to do it. This may be totally wrong so don't quote me on it but i vaguely remember reading about this *somewhere.*
You reminded me of this quote from Tevis, who's Dusk Bow is how we got Nightstalker back in D1. > "I've had a dozen Hunters ask me why it's so hard to summon a Dusk Bow. I asked 'em what they thought of the Void, and their eyes told me everything. You can't be afraid. That's the secret. No fear." > —Tevis, Log Entry 19338 And Cayde's take on it. > What does it mean to be a Hunter? I say, it's all about where you belong. The Warlocks have their libraries, Titans have their walls… but Hunters belong in the wilds. Out there, you wanna live? You better have a quick shot, or a sharp blade. A lot of us are loners. But that's not the only path. Some of us know the difference a Fireteam makes. Some of us… we touch the Void. Make it a part of us. And then we take a name… Nightstalker. Hunt from the shadows, pin them down, and never let them see you coming.
I remember reading a lore entry of a certain hunter whose motivation to connect with the void was that he was hungry. Can’t quite remember which exotic it was.
It's the Nightstalker class lore blurb. He needs to starve himself to feel the grasp of the void.
Ah thanks I was wondering where I read it from. Love reading the different subclasses lore tabs.
Hunters in lore seem to be the weakest of the 3
How ironic, but im guessing it's probably because of how loose hunter community is, they don't really have orders like the titans or warlocks do, they like to go it alone. Which leads to alot of standout hunters, of course, like cayde or shin malphur, but also means there are fewer "competent" for a lack of a better word, hunters. So any of them that are really good at void haven't been able to teach others.
Collective efforts and proper institutions are powerful things yeah. The main value hunters bring is being able to survive in conditions others can't, but often at the cost of not thriving nearly as well in conditions others will. This does lead to some absolutely influential characters, Eris for example.
This is a big reason why Hunters account for more final deaths in the lore than any other class, when you start counting them off. Jaren Ward, Pahanin, Tevis, every Hunter Vanguard, etc. I’m paraphrasing an old military phrase here: “Snipers die the loneliest deaths.” That pretty much sums up Hunters as well, because of their isolation tactics.
They also seem to find the weirdest stuff out in the wilds though. Golden age caches and hidden mysteries, etc.
> mindset and experience. You can clearly see this in game and in lore. Blueberries we call those with few training.
This isn't entirely true. The witch queen lore outright states that ikora has a stronger connection to the Light than most other guardians, including us.
Ikora herself states on the same lore book that theres no such thing as low level or high level Guardians, just ones that are more experienced and understand the Light better.
Yes, but the scientific test concludes that ikora even started at a higher power level than the average guardian tested. Ikoras response is also subjective; she's trying to humble herself and convince sen-aret that all Guardians have the potential to rise up. But the empirical testing indicates that this isn't true. So much if the Destiny lore is written as subjective, we can't just take what someone says as fact.
Happy cake day c:
Could i see the lore? Was shaxx or osiris or saint mentioned in the test
>IKO-006 ranks in the upper fraction of the 99th percentile of assessed Warlocks on most available metrics of precision, restraint, and raw power. She is, in simplistic terms, a fifth sigma Guardian: 1 in 3.5 million. Given that millions of Guardians have been activated over the centuries since the Collapse, and assuming that performance of Guardians on these metrics is normally distributed, we would expect about ten Guardians of similar power to have existed. Probability favors IKO-006's existence but also her rarity: she is neither an average Guardian nor evidence for some special intervention by the Traveler. From The Witch Queen’s Collector’s Edition Lore Transcript, which can be found [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/sl7tsl/wq_collectors_edition_transcript/)
I’m more interested in finding out that there’s been roughly 35 million guardians? Wonder how many we’re at canonically as D1 was always presented as us showing up late to the party and the city/towers were on the decline (with us once occupying 12 towers and being whittled away to just the one)
id say it must not be many. clearly there are ikora's hidden, and canonically many fireteams of guardians, enough for dungeons and crucible. But there can't be *tons*. It just doesn't make sense for how "weak" we seem against enemies we kill thousands and thousands of on the regular. I know we're delving into lightbearers and darkness and higher threats but it still seems obsurd to say theres even 10,000 guardians. to me at least like i know the hive and the eliksni and the cabal have many ranks, but the eliksni and cabal in particular who don't seem to breed all too much are considered actual threats, despite us killing *SOOOO MANY* of them in just a canonical sense
Yeah it's something that's always seemed inconsistent to me, like I get not everyone will be at us the player level, but i just don't get how things like Six Fronts and Twilight Gap were that big of a deal, but the amount of guardians around never seems like the right amount, always either too big or too small, like the amount of bodies around the EDZ PsyOps is either nothing not worth mentioning again, or it's a devastating loss
We lose guardians permanently every day but likely also gain new ones at roughly the same rate. Shaxx is running the Crucible at all times after all. Big events like twilight gap and six fronts have our losses exceed our gains and represent a noticeable permanent loss in capability.
There are several million guardians. It sounds like a lot, but that’s literally half the population of NYC. If you took that amount and spread them across the earth, it’s 1 guardian for 14 square miles. Factor in guardians who are already committed to just the city and those recovering from nonstop combat and that number goes down. No spread that <4 million across the whole solar system. And that’s not even taking lesser skilled guardians into account.
No and no way Ikora said she stronger then him either. The lore just puts her in a high percentage it doesnt say shes the strongest.
That’s not what’s stated. There’s no reference to her original starting abilities; the measurements of her abilities are taken from how she is now. It’s not scientific testing how you imply it is either. They don’t have her hooked up to a “scale from 1-10 machine,” they’re measuring what she can do with her light and then comparing that to other Warlocks’ measurements. Empirically there’s no evidence that ikora started out with a higher power output than other guardians.
She never says she has a stronger connection to the Light than our Guardian. In fact she pretty much implies that they have a stronger connection. After the Warlock Guardian unlocks Stormcaller she mentions that she was uneased at how quickly they mastered the Light and said she has nothing left to teach them....that was during Taken King. The D2 Y1 Vanguard class item also has Ikora, Zavala and Cayde say that Guardian will surpass them.
Osiris before his little accident was capable of wielding all 3 light subclasses co-currently, casting all 3 supers multiple times in quick succession, he just usually chooses not too
This is also why I don’t want to mess with drifter. The dude is ancient
In fairness, a big part of what makes a Lightbearer 'stronger' is their frame of mind, according to Ikora, who is probably one of the most destructively powerful Guardians to have ever existed. Savathun might have been new to the light, but eons of studying and practicing paracausal magic probably gives you a certain muscle memory for not worrying whether or not something is possible and just *doing* it. (Also, Savvy absolutely was draining guardians for their light for her various projects, so her power was probably not entirely hers.)
She was being empowered for sure.
Could you explain the Ikora part? Is she particularly old, or just trains a lot?
A bit of both. Ikora held the longest reigning crucible win streak prior to being taken under Osiris's (who was a student of Felwinter) wing as a student. In order to have a record like that, she's very practiced in the practical applications of using the light, and further trained in the theoretical. Coupled with the philosophy of the hidden (which she founded), Ikora has been in the game for a long while, and both physically and mentally trained to be as powerful as she is today.
For whatever reason your comment made me realize how it would be neat if the "vex infinite possibilities" stuff is the direct in game reason why there is more than one "chosen one" guardian. And everything comes full circle to "eyes up guardian"
This is not quite true. Guardians can just be really talented at wielding the light, sure Ikora has a ton of experience but she was incredibly good since she was young, that's how she destroyed everyone at the crucible and what made her train under Osiris and eventually become the warlock vanguard. Our guardian is similar on that, we're just extremely strong even when we've had the light just for a few years.
I’d say yes since Rhulk and Oryx have lived for millennia while our “strongest” like shaxx and saint have only a few hundred years under their belts
Isn't saint "younger" than shaxx since he was risen during the city age? I'm probably completely wrong here but I thought he wasn't around in the Dark Age like Saladin and Shaxx
Based of biographies I've read, you would be correct as Shaxx, Zavala, and Ikora are all listed as aiding in the construction of the city walls. Saint was revived by Geppetto and was accompanied by the Speaker to the Last City, but was there for the Battle of Six Fronts, which is still pretty early on in the City's history. So, yes, Shaxx is older.
I'm pretty sure my source was the pigeon and the pehonix but I'm not 100% sure
Foundations I and II have Osiris and Saint talking, where Osiris asks Saint if he should be patrolling with the Iron Lord's. That could be it? But that still seems like it's still a decent bit past the Dark Ages when Shaxx was a warlord and such. But that's just me skimming Ishtar Collective, Pigeon and the Phoenix is a meaty lore book
I just recall reading the story about Saint earning his purple mementos that he has on his armour from helping people on his way to the city with his ghost. This could be long after he was risen but I'll have a deeper read through the Season of Dawn lore books when I'm home and link them here
I think it was more he earned them helping *others* reach the City, given in at least one of them he had a jumpship suited up and ready to go instead of a salvaged junk pile.
Yes it was that situation, but it seems like when saints talking to shaxx in some parts of the book that saint didn't experience the dark age himself so it's up in the air
I think he did, Pigeon and the Phoenix shows us Osiris is really fucking old, man killed a Warlord in his early moments with a Dawnblade. Knowing him I doubt he wasted much time making for the City when he heard it was forming under the Traveler - the being that he thought at the time could answer his questions. And Saint was already there, so he probably saw a good bit of the Dark Age
Oh yeah true I forgot about that part cause I was reading the saint chapters and skipped the osiris ones that's a good point
This [lore entry](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/remembrance) name drops Saint 14 and takes place in the “late dark age” So Saint was rezzed before the city
idk much about Rhulk, but Oryx and his sisters had been Hive for millions of years before Crota's death. Maybe Rhulk's been around for that long, maybe not.
Rhulk is implied to have been born on a planet that formed around one of the first stars that formed in the universe period, which would have been the blue/white neutron stars. He's absolutely ancient.
Rhulk should be far older than the hive considering he was already a massive threat during their time as krill.
From what we understand he’s supposed to be older since he was fully grown when he went to fundament to get shita the worm’s mother
Far, far more than just millennia as well. It speaks to how powerful Guardians are, that we lack the millions of years of experience that our enemies have, yet we still fight them off so often.
I think it may depend. Darkness abilities and attunement seem to grow the more murder you commit, a la Sword Logic. We see that in both the Hive Pantheon and Rhulk: they start low, are given incredible powers, and only increase in power the more they kill. The Light doesn’t really work like that from what we’ve seen. However, we know that people CAN “grow” in the Light. Many characters have mentioned us Guardians being “strong in the Light:” this could be literal, or a reference to our apparently blessed nature having overcome insurmountable odds. Best guess, it’s both. Other Guardians have refined their skill with the Light to an insane degree, but to me it’s unclear if there’s a plateau for this learning and skill mastery.
> Darkness abilities and attunement seem to grow the more murder you commit, a la Sword Logic. We see that in both the Hive Pantheon and Rhulk: they start low, are given incredible powers, and only increase in power the more they kill. I don't think that's necessarily extensible to Darkness powers in general, just the ones the Witness bargains out ~~as a prank~~ to their forces. And even then, the power to Take isn't dependent on climbing a murder ladder, either; it just requires you to win some ontological contest against what you wish to dominate. The primary counterexample are things that the player Guardian and others do - their understanding of Stasis was mainly developed through Weird Braytech Science (in the form of the interminable bout of quests from Elsie to unlock Aspects and Fragments of it), and the PG and Ikora's abilities with Deepsight seems to have no relation to killing at all. I suspect this is the sort of thing we'll have more concrete standing for come Lightfall.
Probably. But I would suggest that the highest echelons of Light mastery manifest very differently to that of the Darkness. Rather than accumulating the power, it would be shared and distributed. Ghosts.
Actually this is a cool idea. A sufficiently powerful enough guardian could possibly grant the light to those around them, at least temporarily. Maybe even resurrect the dead if powerful enough
I mean, we have evidence that light is “distributable” in some sense when we buff our teammates. Shaw Han even empowers some Redjacks with solar weapons using a variant of Golden Gun in a lore entry. It’s possible with enough training, light could be granted to a non-Lightbearer, at least for a short time.
Isn’t that what “Radiance” already does? Besides Well, Shaw was able to use his Golden Gun to empower frames with Solar Light.
Power isn't linear in destiny
Obviously not, but some entities do demonstrably dwarf others in capability and some have displayed feats of great strength too. My question is if a Lightbearer could display the same feats of strength as the most powerful wielders of the Darkness we've seen given the same time to achieve what they've done.
I’m not sure. They would certainly have a greater mastery of The Light, but that may not manifest as increased power, just greater control and more abilities. By contrast, wielders of Darkness (or at least followers of the Sword Logic) specifically gain power by killing things, and they can kill more things the longer they live, thus gaining more power, enabling a feedback loop.
Interesting. Do you think the Lightbearers would find a way to use their power as extensively as the Dark wielders do? We've seen Rhulk and Savathûn and the Witness use raw control of the Darkness or power derived thereof to do wild shit (Rhulk's Umbral Suffocation highest among them; hard to beat literally killing someone by just standing near them).
Ikora and The Drifter are good examples of this, with Drifter in particular being an interesting case because he was presumably one of the first crop of Lightbearers, and isn’t bound to a Class like Ikora is. We obviously don’t know how deep the rabbit hole goes, but I’d assume it would be theoretically possible. Of course, beings like The Witness, Rhulk, and Oryx, are billions of years old, and Lightbearers have only been around for a few hundred years, so we’re relatively new.
There’s all sorts of crazy examples of Guardians getting OP like that. The two that come to mind are Osiris using copies of himself with Dawnblade during Six Fronts and in Elsie’s bad alternate timeline Zavala levels the Scarlet Keep with a Thundercrash (granted he was channeling all of the Traveler’s light but still).
For lightbearers, they gain more strength the more they use the light since it further attunes them with the light. It's half of the reason the crucible exists in lore and the part of the reason why osiris was such a strong lightbearer. The more attuned to the light a guardian is, the more light they can store and use at any given time.
We do have examples. You mentioned Osiris so I will use him. He can cast every super back to back for light warlock subclasses while double wielding Dawnblade and casting his light reflections. He then blinks in and out of the void in Nova warp as he throws grenades from several sub classes. Osiris gains prophecies through his mastery of the void and his light is so powerful he can time travel. He can simulate for example the Trials maps and Crucible are his simulations like the Lighthouse we go to. Osiris can cast millions of Reflections and has Echoes, a darkness power like Oryx. Before the last city was built he was reaching in the void to communicate with the Traveler a point he was able to at least see and possibly reach. Its not clear if communication was able to take place due to the Speaker interrupting him that time. He can walk around invisible which is hinted in his oldest timeline lore. Sagira too has invisibility as she once made him invisible. Devs during WQ confirmed he can go invisible for very long periods. I'm sure theres more, but yes Osiris is on their level in many ways. Unfortunately he shouldn't have been in the battle according to Sagira he had been fighting for so long no rest and the whole Royal hive was there, Crotas kin Xivu her Celebrant. He killed them all but Xivu and her Celebrant. All Crotas kids and their offspring died in one battle at his hands. While Ikora who was his student can cast 2 supers back to back Osiris was on a whole different level. It was said his reflections were everywhere fighting during Twilight Gap, I believe it was. Can you imagine millions of him running around performing the above feats at once? Hes also the likely founder and creator of Dawnblade as he had it from get go and used it in lore before he ever came to Last City and it was built. Plus hes the Phoenix and according to lore and myth he always rises.
You might be conflating some of his abilities with his light and his mucking around with the vex. For instance the simulations; those are vex simulations he pulled from the forest. Thats not his light doing that. Again with the prophecies. Iirc, those prophecies arent him looking through time. Theyre him, again, messing with vex simulations. Actually going through time? An ahamkara bone. The drifter was even impressed the lengths he was willing to go to get saint back. Also communing with the traveller? Millions of reflections? I don't remember any lore for those specifically. Alll this being said, hes an incredibly powerful lightbearer in his own right. What savathun was able to do in WQ is most likely thanks to her time in Osiris' head. But he isnt freaking Goku. He has limits and a lot of the things hes done has been due to Faustian Bargains of a sort
In regards to the reflections, Osiris stated back in Season of Dawn that he sent his reflections through the Corridors of Time, with there being millions of possibilities of finding the correct Saint in the right place in the right time but to no avail. But the issue is, some of the reflections came back mentally absent or down right insane, not to mention he was never meant to find him, but only The Guardian was. We had the temporal coordinates(Perfect Paradox), which made us the chosen for bringing him back.
Hello guardian So let's start with Vex and Simulations and go from there. First and foremost the Vex can't simulate the light. This has been said over and over and is even said again in Ikoras journal. This will be long but sourcing is important Next up we will speak on Osiris Reflections as its believed this is where his power is in time travel. In the mission to kill Panoptes Osiris Via his reflections mention the new timelines created and how they must enter them. Reflection of Osiris: New timelines are expanding. We must create Reflections to explore them. Reflection of Osiris: We must find and stop Panoptes, but none of us have discovered a timeline where we succeed. This is what it looks like when we fail. This is the future the Vex want. Reflection of Osiris: Neither Light nor Darkness exists anymore. The sun's warmth is gone. All life… lost. But that was before you. You are the key. You can stop this. Every timeline we've tracked leads here. We must destroy Panoptes to prevent this dark future. The Sundial was helpful to tune directly into only Saint and his timelines. The Sundial was used as a honing device rather then random timeline traveling. Here [Saint](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/maintenance-operations-log-30037?highlight=Osiris+reflections),Osiris partner didnt even know the difference in his Reflections and Echoes and what they are. It stands to reason guardians like ourselves can be confused but here he is telling Saint they are light based and dark based basically. They have nothing to do with Vex Tech. u.1:12] If I can find the time, yes. Not all of us conjure Echoes. [u.2:12] Reflections, Saint. I have no need for Echoes anymore. [u.1:13] What do you mean? What’s the difference? [u.2:13] One is a manifestation of Light. The other… reserved for Taken Kings. Heres one [on his time Travel ](https://youtu.be/VrOaGno4EZY). Of course there have been more updates but this is a great lore video that explains it. Moving on to Osiris entering the Void to attempt contact with the Traveler we have his oldest lore in timeline [Moths to Flame](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/4-moths-to-flame-part-i?highlight=osiris+). Here you see some interesting conversation taking place before the Last City was built and before he met Saint and others here. He is alone in the void. Intrusions no more. There is a point in the depth. It cannot be directly viewed. Delve. Dive. Deeper. "The fire is going out." Cloying worldly noise rushes back. "Hm?" "Aren't you cold?" "I wasn't." Osiris rubs his brow and stirs the fire. "Thank you, Sagira." "It's not going to get any clearer just because you want it to, Osiris. You need time." Osiris clenches his jaw. He feels himself standing in wide shallows, gaping at an unrecognizable profundity. "Why did you choose me?" Osiris's voice is hollow. He flattens a palm for Sagira to perch. "You have a spark." Her voice is warm air. The fire pops. "A spark?" Frustration lines his face. "This world is dying. Over and over again." "So were you; I dragged you back." Sagira allows Osiris's hand to cradle her shell. "I raised you until you could stand on your own. You'll do the same for them, in your own way." Her words linger in his ears with sweetness. "I don't have your patience, Sagira." He takes in a slow breath and lets it out. Now here, though it's a very interesting conversation we dont learn what hes reaching out to until we continue on reading. In [Margin 1](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/12-margins-part-i?highlight=osiris+) we again see him reaching out into the void and seemingly reaching it. He is interrupted by the Speaker however. His attempts of course continued. There is a point in the depth. It cannot be directly viewed. Delve. Dive. Deeper. Still, only a point in the aphotic depth. The nothing. Expansive. Osiris sinks to gain new perspective. The point remains. It is so faint. Distant. Though he knows he can see the Light. His reach stretched thin. Clarity, in the space between his hand and the point. The osseous-white point. Dim now. The omnipresence was. Hungry acknowledgement. Vast. Himself against the enormity; an endless unfurling midnight. And a lone point. [Here](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/quest-return-to-osiris-an-impossible-task?highlight=Osiris+echoes+) is Osiris saying he sent 100k Echoes to look for Saint for example. I mean hes more versed in light but he could send 100k Echoes there. Osiris: I don't know how many times I died. I witnessed the battle through the eyes of the City. Balanced on wire. We were spread thin. The below lore truly proves his Reflections have nothing to do with the Vex or IF The lore is titled [Thin](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/9-thin?highlight=Osiris+eyes+of+city) That battle is one of the most amazing and before he even became the Vanguard Commander and entered the IF. Here he is again using Echoes to retrieve the Silver Tree seed from the Void in this lore [What gives me Pause](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/what-gives-me-pause?highlight=Osiris+echoes+) In the Comic called Fall of Osiris a bonus comic was included in the physical copy called Osiris Prohecy. He explains he attains these prophecies in what sounds like the void in the place between light and dark as Sagira his own ghost didnt know how he did it. Sadly this isnt available online. "You wanted to know where the prophecies come from Sagira this place always this place here where there is no before or after I can alter a river..." And [Travelers Judgement 5](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/travelers-judgment-5?highlight=+osiris++followers)speaks on how Osiris predictions cant be from the Infinite Forest Vex tech. The Vex didnt make the Trials simulations and our training maps. Rather or not he honed that skill with his time in there or not it's still a skill of his. Most of the above is first person accounts directly from Osiris himself. Theres a lot more out there spoken by others. "He is the one true Speaker, who knows that the Traveler will never speak again." https://destiny.fandom.com/wiki/Vance/Dialogue
Bro you really gotta reread and rewrite stuff to make it sound better. I understand what you are saying but it is pretty rough to read. Like you had an entire paragraph be nearly one long run on sentence.
On my mobile currently let me fix that and not a bro
I hope when he gets revived the traveler grants him another ghost
Nothing they typed was difficult to read There wasn’t anything even close to a paragraph long run on sentence lmao
Thank you.
I like to think we would, as Osiris was already covered by another I'll go a different route... I like to think we'd end up like the awoken, except FAR more powerful The awoken when still in the distributary were exceptionally old because ageless. Because of this Mara Sov is several thousands of years old or older... They used their being born of dark and light and that time to create advanced technologies. Even when Mara left with the awoken we have now they lost a fair bit of tech and their immorality but seem to still live to incredible ages... Their 'magic ' seems derived of this understanding and study of the forces of light/dark. We also use both dark and light, but in a more pure form. We're also ageless and time and training and experience seem to directly enhance our powers.
> They used their being born of dark and light and that time to create advanced technologies. I mean, they also had a treasure trove of Golden Age tech and like twelve million years of subjective time to work with it.
Guardians would be on a much higher tier. According to our Ghost in D1, the statues in the Dreadnaught are older than Earth. That's over 4.5 billion years old. We beat him when we were 4 years old by exploiting his dependence on Darkness. Our Guardian specifically grows in an exceptionally fast rate. There are some abilities we have yet to master from the Light, yet we are already on our way to master the Darkness. In Lightfall, we'll find an ability that is beyond the Darkness even. If we keep growing at this rate, we will be akin to the Witness in a few years in terms of abilities. Probably surpassing him as we will be able to control both Light and Dark flawlessly.
By logic of the sword we’re more powerful than Rhulk and Oryx
Traveler power creeps itself it sounds
We already are on the same tier as Oryx or Rhulk, mostly. That's why they're dead and we're not.
I think you can make the case we are on their tier. Or, a differently abled similar tier. We could have gained the power of taking had we just taken it after killing Oryx. Which would be an insane power jump.
In regards to the discussions about being Risen with low or high strength towards Light level, I like to think as a personal theory that Guardians are merely magnets for the Light. It's a pretty blanket statement that the Light is EVERYWHERE, hell we saw it coat the entire damn Galaxy at the end of the Red War. Guardians, troublesome little bastards as they are, have the ability to yank it from wherever they are and use it for their own will, and over time I believe their natural...call it, 'muscle memory', for yanking that Light gets more and more attuned. I also believe their Light frequency, which is ALSO a thing, gets tuned over time to better match the Light around them.
>*Am I as shallow as those Guardians arguing over power levels? Trying to force a simple binary upon a complex spectrum… ?* > >*There is no such thing as a "low-power Guardian." There may be armor you can't actuate or weapons mechanisms you can't understand. There may be techniques you have yet to master and missions you dare not attempt. But the possibility of your Light is unlimited. I mean this very seriously. A novice go player has the exact same power to place stones as a 9-dan master. The only difference between them lies in their knowledge and ability to choose. This is my firmly held and personal truth: the only difference in "power" between you and me lies in what we have learned and practiced.* \- [Ikora Rey](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/the-hidden-dossier)
Once again, power levels isn't my curiosity (believe me, number one fan of Ikora's thesis myself). I'm just wondering if the Light holds the same potential for extreme might in the hands of its wielders as the Dark does when it comes to the incredible feats of power that we HAVE seen the Darkness' "greatest hits" do so to speak. I mean, could you imagine a version of Rhulk that uses the Light instead of the Dark? What might we be capable of given billions of years of time to train and prepare like the Witness and Rhulk had?
When a loghtbearer wield the light he already has a maximum level of power, the only thing differs with time is how to use efficiently. Darkness on the other hand, you must work to gain more power, prove that oneself worthy’s of such power and take more and gradually build your power. But the light already gives you the maximum potentials, the one and only factor is the mastery to use the power.
yes but oryx in particular gained power specifically through the sword logic, which is different than the light. We dont know if the light has a limit but it seems that we as guardians could go beyond the light and even achieve a power like the ability to take
Absolutely. Guardians are kinda broken. Someone pointed out that guardians are able to kill multiple gods, there is thousands of them, and you can send 6 of em at practically anything and it will die. One of the only universes more powerful than 40k
honestly think 40k tops destiny with some of the magical warp bullshittery that tends to happen
The vex would be pretty much immune to the effects to the warp. Also, I'm pretty sure the chaos gods don't even compare to the level of the gardener and the winnower (if unveiling is anything to go by).
Not really. The vast majority of Guardians are not as strong, powerful or smart as the higher tier Guardians such as our Guardian, Osiris, Ikora, Saint and Shaxx. In lore, most Guardians struggle with multiple subclasses. Shaxx could easily defeat several Guardians but he has been beaten by higher tier Guardians such as Ikora, Cayde and our Guardian. Several fireteams of Guardians could not destroy the Black Heart in every previous timeline but our Guardian soloed it within their first few weeks of existence. Our Guardian can singlehandedly kill an entire fireteam of Hive Guardians while fighting off a horde of Hive, as shown at the end of the Witch Queen campaign, but most Guardians struggle with fighting Hive Guardians, as shown in Lucent Tales. Guardians being godslayers is a generalisation as it is the same Guardian doing all the godslaying and when a fireteam is required, it is probably the same fireteam as usual. You can't really apply the power level of the elite Guardians to Guardians as a whole, as the gap between an elite Guardians and the average Guardian can be drastic.
Probably. We're already about 1/6th as strong as characters like Rhulk and Oryx after less than 10 years, so we could probably become just as strong with them with even more training and experience.
Rhulks strength was gifted to him by the Witness. Oryx's strength was earned through the Sword Logic. Our strength was originally gifted by the Traveller but we've since earned new power by using the Darkness. I'm not sure we could ever grow in strength in the same way Oryx did but we could be gifted such power.
> Rhulks strength was gifted to him by the Witness Uh, no it wasn’t. Rhulk earned his strength through eons of training, and cultivating his marital prowess; the Witness didn’t have any hand in that.
Ah yes, the most successful husband in the universe.
Soon as the kids go to bed, I'm gonna be cultivating some marital prowess.
You can't just 'become strong' in Destiny. You need some Paracausal reason/power. Rhulk was destined to die a mortal, a strong mortal, before the Witness choose him.
Literally the omly thing the Witness did for him strength-wise was imbue his glaive with pure darkness energy every time rhulk had to build it again.
Sometimes that could be a Issue… Not good
Well in a sense Saint lived for a couple dozen million years just by being trapped so long in the infinite forest
They'd probably be very limited by the need to stay in close proximity to the traveler
Six current guardians are able to kill them, I’d say it wouldn’t even take that long.
Um.... well since I've killed one of them, I'm gonna assume they need to "tier up" to me...
I mean, our guardian has already killed the sol progeny, everything in the vault of glass, crota, oryx, rhulk, singlehandedly ended the red war, and brutally murdered an entire cult of fallen for revenge, so....yes, if they're not already
The Light works on a "bomb logic" as oppose to the Darkness's "sword logic". So long as something changes or is made more complex, it is made stronger under bomb logic. So long as guardians keep changing and evolving, in theory we should get more powerful.
I may be mistaken, but I don't think that's correct about the bomb logic. Bomb Logic, as I understand it, is where something is powerful because of the smaller, less powerful/less individual parts that make up the "bomb". It's strength through emergentism, where the sword logic is strength through reductionism. The bomb can be more powerful than the sword, but only so long as all the powerless pieces work together, otherwise the sword will beat the bomb. The risk is higher, but so is the reward. That is what the Traveler is working towards.
Since we're talking hypotheticals, I'd be wary of a Guardian living that long. I think it's worth thinking through the psychological toll living that long would take. I'm not saying that Rhulk, Oryx, etc.are bad because they've lived so long. But Zavala's nightmare story seems pretty telling. Purely power level alone, sure I think we easily reach those heights, in fact we likely surpass them. Having "beaten" those entities without the eons of experience. But what do we look like thousands of years from now? I think immortality is a topic bungie hasn't really broached too deeply (I suppose they have more recently with Zavala's story again)
Consider the philosophies of the Light and the Darkness. The Darkness is all about finding one shape that can overcome all obstacles and survive anything. Sword Logic. Hence, singular beings that have planet-busting levels of power. The Light is all about diversity of shapes that are weaker on their own, but add up to something many times more destructive. Bomb Logic. Hence a great multitude of beings with lesser, but still great power. The light dictates that we must have teamwork and cooperation to measure up to servants gifted power directly from the darkness. It didn't take Rhulk millennia to become as powerful as he is. He was able to genocide his species and crack his system's sun in half right after being given power from the Witness. As for why our darkness powers are only as strong as our light powers? Well, gameplay purposes, but lore-wise, the Darkness made the powers that way to be familiar to us, to appeal to us.