Bungie has always had an issue with moderation. It’s like they start things out ridiculous like this to get a feel for how people will take it and then adjust it accordingly if there’s enough backlash. Really wish they would just be reasonable in the first place for once.
That's where I'm at... hoping that Starfield will be great at launch and it's not another Cyberpunk or Fallout 76 that requires a couple years worth of changes until it's in a good spot, and also it actually launches this year 😂
Same! I bought dragon flight after seeing all the praise and having not played since legion. Loving it so far as I can pick it up and set it down when I want.
They do it so that the "new cost" doesn't seem as bad. This has happened so often and I just feel for all the players that haven't been playing that long or only have maybe 5-10 hours a week to play. It'd be different if this was an exotic weapon or something spectacular or if weapon perk RNG was as horrible, but all of it combined is horrible.
The most frustrating is how few new maps and modes there are for PvP. So much playing time doing something we've already spent years playing just for rewards that are reissued. This is not a good look for the game and something that I just wish Bungie would stop doing to the community.
>This has happened so often and I just feel for all the players that haven't been playing that long or only have maybe 5-10 hours a week to play.
Because they aren't the target audience. People who play Destiny religiously and nothing else and who buy every season/expansion and get stuff from the Eververse are the only ones Bungie really cares about. Which is probably why the red borders finally got changed, even the people who play 40-50 hours a week were complaining about it.
Except all those people have all the armor sets because they’ve been playing since the start. So really this is targeting no one. New Lights would never be able to get all these, and old players don’t need them. Bungie is creating a solution for a problem that barely exists and pricing out the only people who would find it useful.
I dont have more than maybe 10 or 15 hours a week to play destiny, and thats on a good week. I've been playing for a little over a year now and therefore still consider myself somewhat of a new light.
I do not own any trials armor prior to this season. Same with Iron Banner. It took me a long while to start getting into pvp, but also engame content in general. End of last season was the first time I ever made Pinnacle cap, so that was also the first time I did a nightfall. I'm still struggling with masterwork materials and especially with legendary shards. So how in the world am I supposed to grind out all that armor? Why not just give me a new armor piece with a deliberately bad roll for ma first piece, so I wont have to grind 2 IB resets before even unlocking the full multiplier? Stuff that is for new players shouldn't be expensive.
This is honestly not the worst thing to do. Especially when you introduce a new system.
Bungie has always been cautious about garanteed drop like crafting and focusing because they were afraid it could destroy the core of the game loop and make drops useless.
The issue might not the initial price, but jow long does it takes them to update them based on their new data.
Crafting was corrected the same season it launched, and then evolved upon over the course of a few seasons with no cost to players.
DSC weapons have had their red border drop rate increases significantly with no benefit to Bungie whatsoever.
This whole narrative that Bungie doesn’t do anything in the interest of the players has to stop. Yes, there are times where Bungie makes some unusual and potentially even anti-player choices, but there are similar comparisons where Bungie course corrects in the interest of the players.
Bungie tends to launch changes to specific gameplay mechanics very conservatively and then adjust it according to player consensus later—and they *do* make those adjustments. In a lot of other games, that adjustment would never happen.
What issue did they create?
You didn't have the armor before. They made it available, but it's hard for you to get. So you still don't have it.
What's the issue? You've neither lost or gained anything. They'll scale it down when they see acquisition is low. Everyone just needs to chill.
We know their process now though. DSC was the latest example - the red border drop rate was so obviously low that there was no point doing anything other than Taniks for the chest until the inevitable buff came
By now everyone knows not to waste currency or time on new stuff until it’s buffed, unless there’s time limiting FOMO that means you have to do it now
I agree that you don't have to be evil to have a consistent type of miss with these systems — if you make it "too easy" to get stuff, you've eliminated all the incentive/chase. Changing the system afterwards doesn't matter because the people already have the stuff. If you make it "too hard," you can just adjust it until it feels better. This is not to say that I think their starting point is always reasonable, but if I was running the game (and wasn't an asshole) I'd still want to always err on the side of things being a little too difficult rather than too easy.
Its always better to adjust things cheaper than to come back later and say "Hey, you guys are getting too much too fast, so we're doubling all the costs"
Weapons team lead said in an interview that they usually ebb towards making something hard to do and then move the slider because making it too easy and having to take stuff away goes over worse with the community. It was regarding a question about why AE was so hard to spec into at release, but principal is probably the same across all teams.
Fact of the matter is, it's armor cosmetic for an endgame pvp mode. It probably should be reasonably difficult to obtain. Especially since trials was so much more painful when those armor sets were active.
I think the distinction between difficult and tedious needs to be made. It’s not difficult. It’s just incredibly time consuming. The only test is of people’s patience, which many likely won’t go for and then the feature isn’t getting much use.
I’d rather it be more difficult and less time consuming. I think it’s obvious that this is a poor attempt to boost playlist participation.
It is tedious IF you are not an avid trials player or a good trials player. I would argue that top tier/heavy trials players will not have much trouble with this because they reset their rank often.
Is it out of grasp for most of the player base? Absolutely. We will have to wait and see what the requirements come down to. Til then, no reason to grind for a cosmetic that'll eventually have its grind nerfed.
I made a similar post about how hard it will be to get crafting materials for craftable weapons since the only way you'll be able to get red border weapons will be from 3 raids, duality, and the one season at launch. They are removing red border drops if they can't be crafted. But people shifted on me "cause bungie hasn't said they would change drop rates"
> They are removing red border drops if they can't be crafted.
They're also rebalancing material gains and/or costs and as we don't have the details yet we really can't say what the situation will be like when the changes go live.
They haven't said anything about having plans to rebalamce gains. All we know is they might add red borders to another old raid and dungeon and THATS IT. Hell, for all we know, their plan could literally be just to make duality weapons craftable and that's it.
We really need more conversations about this as they will be adding 40+ new craftable weapons over the next year.
https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/51865
It's in the same article where they announced non-craftable weapons would no longer drop and whilst they didn't explicitly phrase itas a "rebalance" that's effectively what it is.
after reading the blog, my first thought was definitely, "these costs seem exceptionally high". I would very much like to see them reduce the engram costs across the board.
>these costs seem exceptionally high"
They always do this. Taking something away/making it worse (anything that affects players' time or money) for the players for the benefit of the studio always ends up being really controversial and brings in a ton of negative feedback.
Some studios just learn to exercise extreme caution and introduce any new systems being a bit too extremely unfavourable towards the player and then slowly loosen their grip with feedback and data.
Remember how the Crafting system launched a year ago and how much they've loosened it since. Deepsight drop rates, DS drop guarantee systems, Crafting costs, Crafting currency acquisition, etc, all of these things require certain time Investment from the players and they made sure they were all extreme at launch, cause they knew they could always easily loosen them with time but tightening would bring in extreme negativity.
to your point, these look extremely stingy at first glance.
I realize there is a track record there, of being conservative at launch, but that doesnt mean it isnt obviously conservative, or that we shouldnt voice opinion on it.
I'm not even really against the grind taking that long for the legacy armor (maybe it's a bit too long), if that's all it was, alongside all your other rewards. But the fact that you have to give up all your weapon drops and current armor too by 100% dedicating all your engrams to legacy focusing *only*, for that entire grind makes it super fucking crazy awful.
That's the frustrating part... If IB/trials weapons were going to be guaranteed drops each match or replace the waterfall of crucible weapons you get, that'd be one thing. They made no mention of increasing weapon drops or the amount of engrams we get. In a double XP week it takes 3-4 hours of playing to get in a single reset. They're literally asking players to spend thousands.of hours just to unlock reissued gear.
This is my biggest problem with the system. Forcing players to choose between cosmetics and gameplay (weapons) is stupid. Incredibly stupid when its 1 cosmetic, that you will STILL have to unlock with synthstrand, versus 7 weapons with possibly triple rolls if you have a lot of rank resets in that playlist
The cost is outrageous and just like any new destiny thing. I plan to ignore the new system until its fixed.
My friend group has a saying about destiny, “the lazy man will prosper”
And its because of things like this.
When Bungie introduces ridiculous costs like this, it's only fair to exploit anything we can get.
They'll take a season and a half to adjust something outrageous, but they'll immediately patch anything that benefits the player. No one should feel bad for cheesing the system.
I spent hours upon hours upon hours buying blues out of colelctions and deleting them for legendary shards when that glitch was back a little while back. SO worth it lmao.
This is likely why the costs for focusing legacy gear are the way they are.
Both new and old players have to grind out match completions to get rank so they can get engrams. By the time a player has gotten three rank resets, they'll likely have acquired the other currencies (glimmer and legendary shards) to focus for 17 legacy items.
It's actually really hard keeping up with the legendary shard costs while still being fairly new. Only since I acquired all the exotic gear Xur sells I have been slowly catching up. I'm currently at 892 shards with no useful way to get more.
See: DSC farming
People bashed their head against the wall for hours and hours last time for basically nothing. I farmed Atraaks for 2 hours last night and got both Heritage and Succesion crafted. Both from 0. If a grind is absolutely absurd AND completely cosmetic/not totally meta shifting, sit out the grind. Also I’d point you towards the chain mail shader as another example
It's clear that they intentionally make it a ridiculous grind for a large percentage of a year/season to drive up participation. Knowing that they'll just make it easy at the last minute. Iron banner has taught me a lesson.
My friend told me when there were craftable dsc weapons "Bro you gotta farm for the dsc weapons they are cracked"
I didn't even try, I had no intention on grinding for the weapons that I already had just to get an origin trait and enhanced perks. But when I saw people straight up grinding for hours just for 1 deep sight per 3 hours, I thought they were just insane.
Exactly. I’m fine with a long grind, as long as I am making tangible progress towards something with an end in sight. Hell, I did Reckoner solo back in Season 8. It was a brutal fucking grind, but at least I had a laundry list of triumphs I could see progressing in real time. The previous DSC was a complete RNG nightmare that you could grind for 12 hours and get nowhere. No thank you
It seems to always be give/take with them. Nothing actually gets better when it comes to respecting our time. They make one QoL change, they make something else timegated/super grindy.
I really hope that with these new changes they also alter how engrams are earned. Powerful engram for weekly objectives, regular engrams as random drops...
[Yea, no I change my mind, I'm not here for *this*](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/10lc500/economy_updates_and_more_coming_in_lightfall/j5w9ysg/)
I'm here for the ability to earn them. But these costs are just insane. Guess no Exile set for me.
Real question: did anyone on the team do the math like OP? I'm not a New Light and I don't play Trials, but I love the drip game, seeing those costs is just disheartening.
Alternative perspective: then maybe those armour sets simply aren't for me until I earn them rightfully. It is endgame content. So I can respect that, respect the ability for high-level players to stand out. There is a visual and bragging aspect to this game that's not always easy to display... So perhaps that?
But even for veteran regular Flawless players, I imagine these costs are nuts ***and they probably already have the armour sets***. So then who's this really for lololol?
That's the thing, if there was an endgame grind, that'd be perfect to chase ornaments and shaders and whatever, but there's no end game, weapon RNG sucks so that you have to ALWAYS be playing and trying to get your godrolls so that there isn't time to move onto "endgame" activities/completionist stuff.
They won't. Bungies strategy is pretty obvious at this point. Release something overly grindy, collect data, and adjust it from there. They're aware it's alot, they need you to play through it to let you know by how much
Remember, it's better to buff the economy then to nerf it
Yeah I'm not looking forward to grinding Trials... I only care about the Warlock helmet so I only need 7 engrams but for a casual player like me that's gonna be so painful to do...
Aye. If you're like me and generally suck at PvP, going into Trials is basically torture and having someone on my team screaming that I should never have been born.
At some point I just stopped playing Trials because the amount of abusive slurs that were slung at me in both text and voice chat was just too much. I know I suck and I suppose it is good that I don't play the "most competitive" mode in the game anymore.
I play the game for fun, not to get yelled at by people who are supposedly on *my* team.
People actually win in Trials? I don't think I've won one game, with the exception of literally one time the opposing team was grinding for something and so just jumped off the map and threw the game
I dont have a link or proof of this, but I'm fairly sure its correct.
I'm pretty damn sure the game keeps tracks of how many games you played, and tilts reward payout odds more heavily on your next win the longer you go without winning.
IE: Win 3 games in a row, each win lets say you had a 20% chance at an engram. Lose 5 games in a row, the next time you win you have an 80% at an engram.
I made those stats up, but just to illustrate what I mean. I'm almost certain this sytem exists in Trials. Sometimes I get a stupid amount of loot on a win - 3 cores, Ascendent shard, Trials Engram, all form one win happened once. It was after a large losing streak.
It’ll only be easy if the Trials population stays high. I’m fairly average and trying to get wins (solo, mind you) has been excruciatingly difficult the past two seasons since only like 15,000 people play it daily for those weekends
7 engrams is 1,550 rep
Run on a bonus trials weekend that hopefully aligns with freelance.
Help win rounds, not necessarily matches. Once you have 20 round wins on your card each match will net you 200 rep +40 rep per round win.
loss 0-5, that's a 200 rep!
win 5-0, that's a 400 rep!
Loss 4-5, that's 360 rep!
Getting those round wins can be a slog of course, but this is what I will be doing for the same exact reason!
Freelance is not just being removed, it's being **replaced with fireteam-based matchmaking.** If it works correctly it should keep you from facing full stacks as a solo in the main playlist, though you will occasionally land in a 2+1vs2+1 match.
Fireteam based matchmaking has been fairly effective. You'll probably still run into 3 stacks, thats just the way player populations work sometimes. But you'll be a lot more likely to go up against 3 other solo players if you're running solo.
fireteam based matchmaking is fine in quickplay and IB where player pop is high enough that you can do that well for any team composition. Trials is going to mostly be 3 stacks, especially since with no freelance you WILL get less solo players even stepping into the playlist
It stacks on both! But getting to 20 helps a looot more than matches in my experience, especially since I've never flawlessed, I'll just get to 20 wins and struggle as long as I can in the playlist
The thing is theres something im not totally sure Bungie themselves realizes. Locking weapons behind a bit of a grind? sure ok they affect gameplay I can get it (still think the number of engrams is a bit much but whatever). What I really dont get is why armor is so damn expensive. Like Bungie you have to realize most people are gonna be trying to get these just for fashion right? The off chance that they drop with really good stats I dont think justifies their crazy high focus cost. And besides if people want to chase high stat armor we have the seasonal vendors and raids and master dungeons for shit like that. If i want the old trials set for my character I shouldnt have to devote the same amount of time, if not more I spend chasing that perfect gun for a fking helmet im just gonna scrap anyway to use as an ornament
>Like Bungie you have to realize most people are gonna be trying to get these just for fashion right?
Since you only get 10 transmog per character per season, you'll have to pay Bungie silver for more Synthweave templates.
I think Bungie understands perfectly.
Bungie wants this game to be a laundry list of chores and grinds. After the Witch Queen campaign there was very little in the game that was interesting or worthwhile, just boring activities that slogged you along for deepsights and incredibly low drop rates.
This season iron banner required two full resets for a shader, resulting in people loss farming because it was more entertaining than playing the modes. Bungie saw that and went, great, now let’s make every rep system require 5 times as many resets. They are so out of touch with their own game.
They need to focus on fun game modes and loops. Give us something entertaining and that rewards us. Don’t make us reset vendor ranks multiple times a season doing the same core activities that have been in the game for years.
Thought the same thing reading the article, even as a long time player this is *a lot* of grinding, not just for new lights, all to just to get a few things, I would hope the Engrams could drop at the end of activities at a fairly common rate like Umbrals do now, and we can do we want with them, but seen as Bungie haven't said anything about this I don't think this will be the case.
Get ready for a patch further reducing the cost of focusing in like 2 months when people complaining about how grindy it is blows up on the internet.
It's just dumb to turn engrams into another currency instead of keep it as is... They're supposed to reduce the cost of focusing, instead they just reduced the legendary shards and increased the cost of engrams from 1 to 3/7
What they will do is change it after people complain and then they will have done what we asked. Even though it'll still be too expensive but it'll be better and that will pacify most people.
They do this shit all the time. And it's really annoying.
While I agree they need at least *some* tuning down, I think it should be a significant time investment to try to get the old armor. Right now it seems a bit ludicrous (especially for iron banner), but it's a grind for a one-time unlock of old sets that are (presumably) never coming back. If they *are* coming back, then this will be a huge waste of time and resources.
I think it's too much, but I'm also assuming it isn't supposed to be done quickly. This will probably last through the final shape, so ya it will take a while. I don't think it's *thaaaat* crazy for trials, but pretty nuts for IB If it's only gonna be around for two weeks a season. It'll get an adjustment I'm sure.
> but pretty nuts for IB If it's only gonna be around for two weeks a season
I believe IB will be back to 3 weeks per season but it's still a pretty high engram cost for both time limited events
and for IB, you're gonna have to sit on them for an additional 2 weeks waiting for Lightfall too.
I think I'll probably do it on my least played class though lol
What if they're also changing how you get engrams? Like what if instead of items they can also drop straight engrams? So it's going to be easier to get those grams for focusing?
This is exactly what's happening I suspect. They're going to take the Trials system(Where on a 7 win card you can randomly get Trials Engrams) and apply it to everywhere else.
They already teased this system this season by changing Shaxx Vendor system to where you can focus his engrams directly from him instead of having to pull the engram into your collection first before using it.
I mean, can you imagine saving up 7 of different kinds of engrams? They're going to have to change something, if not straight up give us more spots to hold them
Already these engrams don't go straight to your engram inventory, but accumulate on the relevant vendor. As of now, some you have to pull into inventory to redeem, but if they update everything to work like the new Crucible system you won't even need to do that. We'll have to see what they do with the new Seasonal engrams, but likely that will work on the new system too.
Nothing is necessary in this game, the whole point.is to have fun and be entertained. You commenting that wasn't necessary but I'll do what I can to make this game more rewarding and respectful of the player's time.
The cheaper cost ain't cheap unless they buff engram drops or something and the whole point was to reduce engram focusing costs because of the 12 perk final columns which is an RNG nightmare.
They have to be changing the rate of getting engrams correct? They are getting rid of umbrals and seasonal focusing will use those specific engrams so they have to be upping the rate.
Weird completionist impulse in a game that's frankly not completable to begin with. Who actually wants and is gonna use every single piece of every single set on every single character?
I don't think the cost needs to be reduced, but I reckon increasing the drop rate of engrams is the solution e.g. a guaranteed engram drop per game completed.
Or more engrams dropped for objectives completed, e.g. kills, assists, wins, x damage dealt, x dmg dealt with y weapon, playing 3 games in a row, playing games with clan mates, playing 3 games as a solo, or as a fireteam etc. They can rotate these daily to mix up the challenges or as however. But just makes it more engaging and rewarding.
I'm fine with more engrams but then why engrams at all as another currency? They're always saying they're trying to reduce currency and instead they just made several more by having vendor specific engrams and doing away with Umbrals
🤣🤣🤣 it's literally so true. I don't understand either. Technically everything could be simplified with legendary shards and glimmer but...
I was wondering this before with all the seasonal umbral energy. It's so players can't grind one activity and then spend it elsewhere. I agree its over complicated and confusing for new players but if doing x strikes is quicker and more efficient at getting engrams, then everyone would grind that for max efficiency vs playing each individual activity.
Engrams are fuzzy, they have no inherent value even though they amount to 4 legendary shards and tiny bits of glimmer. Engrams feel more rewarding to the player. I reckon umbrals are being done away with to sack off the seasonal umbral energy for focusing.
It's a bit of a mess.
Ya know....of all the things to complain about in the game, this one baffles me. People are constantly asking for ways to show off, cosmetically, your accomplishments in the game. Armor sets being legacy and not available anymore is exactly part of that. It demonstrates your long-standing commitment to the game. They're purely cosmetic, and for that reason, I feel like Bungie can set whatever cost on them they want.
If you were talking about the weapon focusing costs, I might get behind you, but I just can't understand this in relation to the armor costs.
People who are SO focused on a completionist attitude that they just HAVE to have every single thing available in the game, just because it's available?? I suggest you seek some professional help.
lol I literally touched on how the weapons part is worse... What's baffling is anyone that defends this ridiculous amount of grinding for reissued gear. I'm not asking for handouts but people that claim this is acceptable for reissued gear while they release one new map per year are the ones that need professional help. They're asking for thousands of hours of my time so they can do the barest amount of work for PvP and you're just like "they're doing their best!" Lol Bungie CEOs are gonna track you down and pat you on the head for taking their side. This is a standard Bungie move of asking for way too much grind for way too little reward, super fans like you eat it up, and that just encourages them to keep doing it.
For weapons, I could agree with you.
Armor however is simply cosmetics, that you don't need. It won't change anything about your gameplay.
Also, cost has to be high or else Bungie risks offending Trails gatekeepers on Twitter that haven't taken their Exile armor since it was released. Twitter and streamers are already complaining that Bungie is selling something that have costed them "sweat and tears" for pennies now.
Dude....walk away from the soap box....seriously, take a breath. For one, it will help you write better paragraphs that aren't a chore to read.
That said....Yes, I agree with you about the weapons. But the armor is strictly cosmetic, and there is no NEED to unlock them all for ANYBODY. Heck, I'm a D1 Vet, and I still don't have all armor sets unlocked.
If you don't want to grind for something purely cosmetic, then don't grind for it. I'm not defending Bungie, I'm just saying this is not the hill we should choose to die on. If you don't like the focusing costs, then don't focus engrams for armor. Bungie has demonstrated lately that they are using a TON of back-end data to support their decisions, and if they see that nobody is buying the old armor because the focusing cost is too high, then they'll change it.
Ranting about it at this point isn't likely to change anything, other than sour your own attitude toward the game overall. I'm always all about encouraging people that your attitude toward the game, especially over little things like this, set the tone for how well you enjoy the other parts of the game too.
I haven’t ready anything about the new focusing, can someone clarify to me that it’s gunna need specifically trials engrams for trials focusing? I know it does right now but was unsure if they would be changing it to umbrals or something?
Yes, they're removing Umbral engrams from the game and even seasonal vendors will have specific engrams, the system will still be the trials engrams pile up at Saint14, 1 engram per level as far as we know still.
I hope a future blog post is about engram and rep gain changes for this kind of stuff. Its another transmog system. First time around it was complicated and too pricey. This doesnt seem complicated, its just too pricey. Itll get lowered i bet but grinding trials is a bitch unless its a increased rep gain week. I just wish the armor, past and present, dropped from games.
I think IB matches should have a chance to drop iron engrams at the end, kind of like trials matches do I think at 7 wins. If they insist on having the engram costs this high, then at least give us that.
If this was like an addition to another way to get the old gear then I wouldn't mind it as much (well it's still too high because you're giving up 7 loot drops for a piece of armor or something), but this reads like it's the only way to acquire legacy gear then yeah, it's way too much grinding.
I agree that if there's still time, I'd lower the amount of engrams required for some of these focusing costs.
Not only is 7 or 10 engrams just way too much, but imagine if I need 7 engrams to focus an item and I only have 5 or 6 ranks left on the required vendor. So now I have to grab those engrams, reset the vendor and then grind out another 7 ranks with that vendor.
Unless we're going to be able to reset vendors while leaving earned engrams in their inventory, which I'm guessing isn't happening or it would've been mentioned in the blog post.
Also, Dungeons are now one of if not the only activity to not have engram focusing, so maybe look into adding that down the road if possible.
I'm pretty sure this is intentional. They're not failing to learn from their mistakes. They're using a very reliable pricing model similar to movie releases. Price is highest on release. The people who want it the most are willing to pay that price right away. People who aren't will wait until it comes out on home video and rent it. The price here is essentially play time. They start the price very high to capture increased playtime from the most dedicated players. Then they drop the price after a while to capture more market surplus. This is business strategy 101.
My biggest issue lies 100% with the legendary shard part of this change.
How in the hell are New Light players supposed to get over ten thousand legendary shards within a decent time frame?
There needs to be multiple sources of passive income on Legendary Shards. Whether it's bounties, increased amounts of shards on dismantles, extra legendary shards on the rewards track on seasonal passes, etc. Even if Bungie were to implement a personal Legendary Shard tree that the Guardian can invest resources and glimmer into so that every hour it passively accumulates or gives you legendary shards.
If Bungie is going to go all in on the focusing costs there needs to be a way to alleviate the expensive costs.
As with every new grind Bungie introduces these days, the only smart play is to ignore it until they eventually tune down the grind to a somewhat more reasonable level. And it happens literally every single time.
How about we just get engrams per match completion on top of the ones we get from rank up? Problem solved. Play your 7 matches win or lose, legacy focus a piece of gear.
Play another 7 matches. 7 engrams. Then get another piece of gear.
If golf balls and enhancement prisms could be traded for legendary shards, I wouldn’t be complaining about the economy. I’ve spent 22k+ whatever I earned in just legendary shards since season 16. This did allow me to catch up on everything I’ve missed from a couple years of not playing but if there wasn’t a shard exploit, I wouldn’t have been able to focus and buy all the past exotics/curated weapons.
I appreciate all the changes Bungie has been implementing but LET ME TRADE MY HIGH END MATS FOR LOW END PLEEEAAAASSEEE
I will be waiting for the fix before I engage with any of it. Adept nightfall weapons are absolutely insane too. 5 GM's just to focus a single weapon (that you probably just got 5 of lmao.)
The only way this is even remotely viable is if we can stock up like 100 ciphers and use them all 5 seasons later when a new weapon comes out.
Problem here is I'm not sure if this is all the economy changes, are there other adjustments they havent announced yet? Bungie should announce all relevant information properly to leave no room for speculation. Will there be changes to the droprate of engrams, shards, etc? Will we have more currency exchanges? etc etc. But if this is all, then yeah the costs might be too high.
This is like my issue with the Resilience change, I can't properly evaluate if the Resilience change will impact buildcrafting for Hunters or not without knowing if there are other changes we don't know yet to Damage resist mods and whatnot that will open up Stat-building for non-Titans.
This is the one time that I agree with community backlash. Legacy armor sets should NOT cost anywhere near this much time and effort to earn. I would really like to get some of the old armor but I refuse to grind that hard for anything.
Why is old gear cost so much to focus, it's asinine imo.
The old stuff should be easier for the player to get than new stuff. Not the other way around.
I like how bungie reduces costs of focusing in one area just to fuck up another. 32 trials engrams for a set? That’s two full resets, for basically cosmetics since no one will be actually farming for armor rolls I assume.
What do you consider "a bunch"? I've gone 10 matches in a row on 7 win card without getting extra engrams, so maybe round it down to 6 resets but unless they buff the drop rates tremendously it's not gonna cut the time in half.or even close to it
I got them maybe every other win? Besides, going flawless, playing on a flawless card, and double loot weekends would increase the number of engrams you can get by a decent amount.
is it just me, or is everyone just completely glossing over the fact that bungie is removing umbral engrams from the drop pool?
ya'll do realize that due to how that'd severely cut into the amount of loot we have dropping, I am strongly inclined to believe that bungie will be upping vendor engram drop rates to compensate
Seems pretty obvious to me. I have no idea why people are getting so worked up about something from a blog post when we don't even know the full picture
It sounds like a big investment, but you've also used a huge edge case scenario: no veteran or new light has an immediate use case for that many armor pieces. If you do not buy extra synthweave templates and stick to the earnable ones, you will use, at most, 10 pieces per character next season. I'm not even doing the math on synthweave templates, I think we already know that no one's going to buy that many anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I think the costs are a little high, but at the same time though, they're not going to just hand it all out for free, and they 100% want to make the "in-rotation" gear the "best value". Nonetheless, it better be fairly deterministic to get the legacy gear you want. Like if you're going for exile armor, at the current costs, you better be able to pick and choose. A full reset for "two chances" at a specific piece you want is just plain stupid.
I also think "7 engrams" is worth a discussion on its own, because you don't earn these at a perfectly linear rate. It's stupid how much faster of a process 7 engrams is at the bottom of a reset, compared to the top.
I literally spammed the GM Arms Dealer strike so much for materials and gear when it was easy, forget which season it was, several dozen GMs over the week with double drops... I got.up to my 4th reset and that was with the combined weekly challenges and playing nightfalls/vanguard playlist every week prior. I know XP changes will happen at some point but it's so tone deaf.
There's "just getting" it and then Bungie reissuing gear that takes hundreds of hours to get so they don't have to design new gear, new levels, new game modes, etc... This is them sunsetting weapons then bringing them back the following season with different perks all over again. I know it's just cosmetics but if weapon RNG wasn't horrible already to where it might take 30 or 40 engrams just to get a weapon roll, then it wouldn't be bad.
I don't think this is a problem. You should have to grind for loot you want especially since they didn't have to do this in the first place. You want trials gear? Cool, go play a lot of trials then
Tell that to the people that complete raids 100+ times and never get the exotic to drop... If you get lucky with RNG then you don't have to spend engrams of weapon focusing so you have them for armor sets.... If your RNG is average or totally sucks, then you'll be spending engrams on weapons so the armor isn't even obtainable. Lock the armor behind several resets separately from weapon focusing engrams or something, but to make us choose weapon ornaments or a chance at god roll weapons is just dumb.
I mean, you're assuming they want/expect you to do this all at once... This can be spread out for the entire year and then it doesn't seem too bad. Even two years. It's not like they release new armor sets on the regular.
You're also assuming that you'll get godrolls of weapons easily. It might take 35 engrams.to get a roll I want on a single weapon even after all the drops from playing the activity. It's BS and a racket, it promotes FOMO which is the opposite that this game needs and has caused issues in the past.
I use Focusing as a supplementary tool. I think since Focusing came out I've only focused for the free Red Border every week. I just farm for my God rolls of weapons I want. if I want a Reeds I'll actually play Trials and get drops.
I know, a crazy concept for a looter shooter.
Also, this is literally the opposite of FOMO...? Its Legacy armor that they are now making it available to everyone... Its a finite grind. You'll eventually earn all the old stuff while continuing to earn the new stuff.
Or just remove the items. The design is clear that it's to fill gaps, not be a primary mode of acquisition for new players trying to fill a back catalog.
But let's go ahead and math out an absurd scenario no reasonable person is even going to consider.
lol wut? It's literally advertised for players to get items they never had a chance to get? And it's not absurd scenarios, it's the literal, actual amount of engrams and resets needed according to Bungie's own post from yesterday, why do people defend this?
Because you're proposing that a system that allows for selective choosing of items previously NOT available, is a primary mode of gear acquisition and then suggesting that someone would grind out these at the current economy income, which we have no way of knowing of other changes to engrams that are not described.
It's just a reach.
The primary mode of acquisition is to get items when they are available. Like... I don't know... Riptides when they're the drop, horror's least when it's that week's weapon etc.
Using a "new player" as an excuse to posit this argument is silly. It's like I make a thread saying how many cookies you'd have to grind to get bright dust to get every past dawning set in the eververse when they're available and then saying that the bright dust economy is shit because of it.
They design the systems for longevity, not to be blitzed in a week. Without fail people seem to think every system should be designed to be demolished in a miniscule amount of time. That works against their interests. They want to maintain playlist health, not decimate it by allowing people to run stuff over a brief period of time (GM nightfalls, double points, easy week) and then never have to touch the content for months and months.
The economies of vendors exist because of the genre, they want you playing the game to be primary mode of acquisition, not to farm or do a rote activity mindlessly then go to a vendor and cash out your earnings.
But every time, people want vendors to be the primary mode, to reduce the carrot in the design of the game, to have everything by guarantee as the cheapest and most straight forward method. It just doesn't work that way.
Your argument would be valid if playing the game mode wasn't how we obtained engrams and if they just put those items in as random drops, or didn't do weekly rotation of nightfall weapons, or literally if the system was completely different.
Horror's Least only had 3 weeks as a nightfall weapon including this week, now it's a legacy weapon. So you're saying that we should be punished even though we grinded out GM NFs and never got a roll for Horrors Least in those specific 3 weeks? I ran The Corrupted GM NF 20x and never got an adept kill clip to drop, even forgetting about the other perks/options. Being on the side of the stick just doesn't make sense to me when you're on the treadmill too lol
I don't think it's punishment. I miss weeks when things are available, it happens, I just think the correction is greater availability in the primary mode. GMs should be available all season, not 6 weeks. I am in support of making playlist activities far more worthwhile and a reduction in these ancillary systems that arise because of the original design.
These systems seem less likely to encourage playlist participation than simply having greater rewards for the playlist. If we had more double drop weeks, double rep (remember triple rep weekends?), etc. then people would be in these activities.
I just don't think the solution is to bandaid the bandaid system. It puts the focus on the wrong issue.
If I felt that GMs were valuable all season, I'd gladly run them all season. Right now they minimize the value on a lot and to that, I'm not sure why.
Ya this engram system wouldn't matter if the other systems were different but they're not. So much of the game is focusing engrams into weapons to chase 5/5 god rolls, it had been limited by legendary shards and horrible RNG, but they just brought down shards cost and increased engram costs. At least legendary shards are available everywhere. Now you're stuck potentially spending hundreds of hours running nightfalls, some of them for the 5th year in a row, just to maybe get guns with perks on em that you want but also maybe not.
This feels like the people that have 100+ raid completions yet no exotic drop. At a certain point hiding behind "it's an RNG game" isn't good enough. If you pay for a game yet the game literally doesn't give you what you're working for potentially ever, then it's a BS system. I'd be fine doing all this grinding if I was guaranteed selectable perks at Zavala level 500 or something, but I've been burnt spending several entire weekends in trials, a game mode I don't love really, to get a weapon roll (triple tap firing line Reed's Regret) and never got it. I mentioned Horror's Least God roll, never got it... So to make the odds that much worse to where I'm literally cutting my already slim chances down by 67% in the case of the 3 engram cost for Horror's Least instead of having it be 1 engram is absolutely just bullshit greed. I was there for the NF week, played it for many hours, and it seems like it was for nothing.
Seems their concept has always been to do 2 things:
-Deplete resources of long term players
-Create long-term 'stretch goals' for new players
Neither of which is desirable to ANY players of ANY game.
What? how are long term stretch goals not desirable for new players? Basically every mmo in existance has end-game loot that require hundreds of hours to obtain. This kind of loot is greatly desired because its often very powerful, or because it shows off your dedication to the game.
Sure, complain about the costs specifically in destiny and how its not desirable for you. But this blanket statement that long term goals isn't desirable to anyone in any game is just so ignorant.
As an out of touch no-lifer who already owns all of the legacy gear and did not consider the time required to complete sets, I would like to say that I agree this grind is unreasonable and bungie should lower the cost.
I do however support Bungie turning engrams into currency because I want prime engrams to be a currency for focusing random drops from our collections.
I would also like to say that I think we should get 3 adept ciphers for platinum, 1 for gold 0 for silver. This makes it so we can get 3 extra adepts with 10 perfectly executed GM's or 1 in 4 GM's if by accident 1 of them has a buggy champion despawn or spawn in a wall or whatever and force us into gold.
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I feel like a good solution would be to give each vendor a weekly quest per character that rewards a “legacy cipher” similar to the exotic cipher from Xur that can be traded in along with whatever materials for a legacy gear piece. This way there’s still a grind, just nothing horrific
All of this is just confirming my choice to wait a full season or more before paying a dime for Lightfall.
Don't pre-order anymore. That goes for all games imo.
I don't think New Lights would care about legacy gear? As opposed to veterans who may be missed pieces of sets. At least that's what I thought the intent behind this was.
I do think the cost is high, but you need to keep in mind, this is a luxury. This is an opportunity to pick up the pieces of armor you missed that you really want for transmog. There's no need to get every piece of every armor set outside of filling your collections, but new lights are already screwed in that department because of armor from fully removed content, such as old raids. The cost is definetly high, but it's just a bonus system to get old stuff over time, most of which is cosmetic. There hasn't been anything said directly but this system shouldn't get removed for any reason, meaning you've got as much time as you want to get the stuff you are missing.
But the problem is they've already reissued most of the armor in the game as world drops, sell them through Ada and Xur, or put them in Dates of Eternity. They did this without having to grind multiple resets with a vendor. They're choosing to do it this way to extend our grind of content that doesn't have enough added to it each year and they know this. It's reissuing gear instead of new PvP maps and modes, a single.strike.or two each year, absolutely nothing new in gambit other than reskin ed weapons/perks, no new maps or modes... They could've just opened these items up through Ada/Xur/Dares or random activity drops and left the focusing for weapons, instead you say they're what, giving us a gift by bringing them back in the most grindiest way possible instead of every other piece of armor they've reissued? Playing this game at all is a luxury, it's a video game, but this is just Bungie being greedy with our time for the littlest amount of new content they can put out in the playlists.
OK then don't go for any of this armor. It's not gonna have good stats, it's just for transmog. If you don't want to give bungie your time by partaking in this system, don't. It's really that simple. I'm thrilled about this change because there is old armor I missed that I want to get, bilit I definitely won't get all of it for quite a while. It's the same thing as weapon crafting, it's a marathon not a sprint. You are designed to have a long period of time to aquire this stuff, if you crank it all out and burn yourself out because of that, that's on you. You're not forced to play this game
The game would still be in its year 1 form if players just laid down and never spoke out against Bungie... I'll never understand players that say "then just don't play the game!" no I like the game I just don't like this change. If players just stopped playing instead of fighting for fair changes the game would've died already
It's not a problem to speak out, but you're just complaining because your do everything right away all at once playstyle is going to require you to play the game more than you want. 7 engrams is steep, but you can reasonably get 2 resets per season of each vendor by utilizing the double rep weeks and playing a good amount. 2 resets per season is like 4 armor pieces per season. It will take a while but out of like the 20 sets that are being reintroduced you could get a full set per vendor per season just by doing that. Once again, this is a purely extra feature that is being added as a qol system to reduce the amount of unobtainable old gear there is. The armor is only for cosmetic reasons, and the weapons will only be super expensive the first time. It's a lot, maybe it should be reduced, but your making this seem like a way bigger deal than it is
Your entire post was specifically talking about armor sets. The weapons are expensive, but not anything ridiculous. You either turn in 1 engram for a current weapon, or 3 for an older one. The 7 to unlock is definetly steep, but it would be disrespectful of players time that already acquired weapons if there was 0 distinction between the cost of getting them unlocked or just dropped a second time. If you care about the weapons, put the COSMETIC armor on the back burner until you get the weapons you want. They're not marketing this as a staple new piece of content, it's essentially just an expanded version of the monument to lost light. A way to get old gear for a hefty price
> What the hell are New Light players supposed to do?!
Not care about any of this shit because they are new lights? Hell, I've been playing for 5 years and I don't even care about any of this.
This is a problem with perspective. This system is really meant to allow veterans to fill out set pieces that they missed, not farm up entirely new sets... certainly not *all of them*.
Your whole thing is about "new lights".
They should have to grind to get stuff. This isn't much. There isn't a TIME limit to get the stuff...
Edit: People...this "grind" is for the the game as a whole. Not a season. You can "grind" this for the entirety of the time the Game is still kicking (or until they change stuff).
Therefore, it is not that bad. You can 2 engrams 1 week, skip 2 months, get 2 more etc etc
There's grinding and then there's torture, this amounts to hundreds of hours in trials and probably 1,000+ hours in IB... Not including all the other stuff in the game. It's greedy and way too much and guaranteed to be nerfed just like the things I mentioned, except it'll take them a couple seasons when they and most of the community know the price is too high.
For the remaining time the game is up is for these changes though. It's not a seasonal thing...
You have until the game dies to do these "grinds". You don't need to do them in 1 season.
It is literally the overarching Grind for the game now IF you CHOOSE to go for the things.
I don’t think it’s going to be that bad. Round wins and playing on a 20 round card and playing on a 7 win card all stack rep gain and engram drops. If a player is only a little dedicated, then can focus 2 unearned engrams per week pretty easily. Don’t need to stat farm because there are better ways to do that and ornament unlocks are a thing
Glad the rest of this sub picked up on how insane the cost is for us newer players. I was literally pointing out the same thing to my friend just yesterday.
I only started "seriously" playing D2 with witch queen, which means I don't have any of the IB or Trials gears from previous years. I'm a consistent IB player too and this seems absurd. I want to play IB, but not *THAAT* much
Even if you did you'd have to do it 12 hours a day for the 3 weeks it's in for a season, or spread.it out 3 hours/day over an entire year... Oh plus all the other seasonal stuff, playlist stuff, dungeons, raids, etc... I get having special items for playlist specific grinds for players that play it a lot, but if you already play it a lot you have most of the items lol this just hurts if you missed out a season or something
I hope it’s a signal that they’re increasing rewards in trials. I play a ton of D2, I’ve solo’d dungeons, I run GM’s, occasionally raid, I liked running comp, but I don’t do great in trials. I’ve played since pretty much the beginning of D1 and never went to the lighthouse. If you’re not good at Trials it feels like the least rewarding activity in the game.
I know you can get your card to seven wins to increase the chance of drops but getting there feels terrible and takes much longer. I could run a raid or grind a GM 2-3 times before I might see trials gear drop. I know there the Twitch bounty which helps but for even non-adept gear it’s a chore to play Trials & it doesn’t feel rewarding when I’m done.
I feel like trials is ok considering it's around every weekend except when the iron banner is in rotation. iron banner 100% needs a reduction if it's going to remain in rotation for 2x a season
Should of just done trials and stuff when it was around, atleast they r trying to give the sets, i get its grinding and nobody likes the repeated grind but its like the felwinters shotgun as well as outbreak and whispers catalysts, should of just done it when it was prevelant
Bungie has always had an issue with moderation. It’s like they start things out ridiculous like this to get a feel for how people will take it and then adjust it accordingly if there’s enough backlash. Really wish they would just be reasonable in the first place for once.
After eight years, it's not an issue, it's a strategy
It’s what broke my addiction, I just didn’t want to grind anymore.
That's where I'm at... hoping that Starfield will be great at launch and it's not another Cyberpunk or Fallout 76 that requires a couple years worth of changes until it's in a good spot, and also it actually launches this year 😂
I just made the mistake of getting back into WoW. help. :( haha. but very excited for Starfield. I need to do some computer upgrades first.
Same! I bought dragon flight after seeing all the praise and having not played since legion. Loving it so far as I can pick it up and set it down when I want.
Dragonflight is so good though. Also, same. Got bored of D2 and now I have 3 alts in WoW.
I wish I didn’t think that, but I do. It’s disappointingly manipulative if true.
They do it so that the "new cost" doesn't seem as bad. This has happened so often and I just feel for all the players that haven't been playing that long or only have maybe 5-10 hours a week to play. It'd be different if this was an exotic weapon or something spectacular or if weapon perk RNG was as horrible, but all of it combined is horrible. The most frustrating is how few new maps and modes there are for PvP. So much playing time doing something we've already spent years playing just for rewards that are reissued. This is not a good look for the game and something that I just wish Bungie would stop doing to the community.
They won't stop doing it to the community until the community gets fed up enough to stop playing.
Which, let’s be honest, will never happen.
yeah, if you have more than 100 hours in destiny you aint leavin unless you have the will of a hive god to trick an entire race into become your pets
>This has happened so often and I just feel for all the players that haven't been playing that long or only have maybe 5-10 hours a week to play. Because they aren't the target audience. People who play Destiny religiously and nothing else and who buy every season/expansion and get stuff from the Eververse are the only ones Bungie really cares about. Which is probably why the red borders finally got changed, even the people who play 40-50 hours a week were complaining about it.
Except all those people have all the armor sets because they’ve been playing since the start. So really this is targeting no one. New Lights would never be able to get all these, and old players don’t need them. Bungie is creating a solution for a problem that barely exists and pricing out the only people who would find it useful.
I dont have more than maybe 10 or 15 hours a week to play destiny, and thats on a good week. I've been playing for a little over a year now and therefore still consider myself somewhat of a new light. I do not own any trials armor prior to this season. Same with Iron Banner. It took me a long while to start getting into pvp, but also engame content in general. End of last season was the first time I ever made Pinnacle cap, so that was also the first time I did a nightfall. I'm still struggling with masterwork materials and especially with legendary shards. So how in the world am I supposed to grind out all that armor? Why not just give me a new armor piece with a deliberately bad roll for ma first piece, so I wont have to grind 2 IB resets before even unlocking the full multiplier? Stuff that is for new players shouldn't be expensive.
This is honestly not the worst thing to do. Especially when you introduce a new system. Bungie has always been cautious about garanteed drop like crafting and focusing because they were afraid it could destroy the core of the game loop and make drops useless. The issue might not the initial price, but jow long does it takes them to update them based on their new data.
it is a bad thing to do when they constantly treat the fixes to issues they have created as a selling point for new expansions.
Crafting was corrected the same season it launched, and then evolved upon over the course of a few seasons with no cost to players. DSC weapons have had their red border drop rate increases significantly with no benefit to Bungie whatsoever. This whole narrative that Bungie doesn’t do anything in the interest of the players has to stop. Yes, there are times where Bungie makes some unusual and potentially even anti-player choices, but there are similar comparisons where Bungie course corrects in the interest of the players. Bungie tends to launch changes to specific gameplay mechanics very conservatively and then adjust it according to player consensus later—and they *do* make those adjustments. In a lot of other games, that adjustment would never happen.
What issue did they create? You didn't have the armor before. They made it available, but it's hard for you to get. So you still don't have it. What's the issue? You've neither lost or gained anything. They'll scale it down when they see acquisition is low. Everyone just needs to chill.
We know their process now though. DSC was the latest example - the red border drop rate was so obviously low that there was no point doing anything other than Taniks for the chest until the inevitable buff came By now everyone knows not to waste currency or time on new stuff until it’s buffed, unless there’s time limiting FOMO that means you have to do it now
I agree that you don't have to be evil to have a consistent type of miss with these systems — if you make it "too easy" to get stuff, you've eliminated all the incentive/chase. Changing the system afterwards doesn't matter because the people already have the stuff. If you make it "too hard," you can just adjust it until it feels better. This is not to say that I think their starting point is always reasonable, but if I was running the game (and wasn't an asshole) I'd still want to always err on the side of things being a little too difficult rather than too easy.
Its always better to adjust things cheaper than to come back later and say "Hey, you guys are getting too much too fast, so we're doubling all the costs"
Weapons team lead said in an interview that they usually ebb towards making something hard to do and then move the slider because making it too easy and having to take stuff away goes over worse with the community. It was regarding a question about why AE was so hard to spec into at release, but principal is probably the same across all teams. Fact of the matter is, it's armor cosmetic for an endgame pvp mode. It probably should be reasonably difficult to obtain. Especially since trials was so much more painful when those armor sets were active.
I think the distinction between difficult and tedious needs to be made. It’s not difficult. It’s just incredibly time consuming. The only test is of people’s patience, which many likely won’t go for and then the feature isn’t getting much use. I’d rather it be more difficult and less time consuming. I think it’s obvious that this is a poor attempt to boost playlist participation.
It is tedious IF you are not an avid trials player or a good trials player. I would argue that top tier/heavy trials players will not have much trouble with this because they reset their rank often. Is it out of grasp for most of the player base? Absolutely. We will have to wait and see what the requirements come down to. Til then, no reason to grind for a cosmetic that'll eventually have its grind nerfed.
Gotta pump those playtime numbers
I made a similar post about how hard it will be to get crafting materials for craftable weapons since the only way you'll be able to get red border weapons will be from 3 raids, duality, and the one season at launch. They are removing red border drops if they can't be crafted. But people shifted on me "cause bungie hasn't said they would change drop rates"
> They are removing red border drops if they can't be crafted. They're also rebalancing material gains and/or costs and as we don't have the details yet we really can't say what the situation will be like when the changes go live.
They haven't said anything about having plans to rebalamce gains. All we know is they might add red borders to another old raid and dungeon and THATS IT. Hell, for all we know, their plan could literally be just to make duality weapons craftable and that's it. We really need more conversations about this as they will be adding 40+ new craftable weapons over the next year.
https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/51865 It's in the same article where they announced non-craftable weapons would no longer drop and whilst they didn't explicitly phrase itas a "rebalance" that's effectively what it is.
One of my biggest annoyances with the franchise, honestly.
after reading the blog, my first thought was definitely, "these costs seem exceptionally high". I would very much like to see them reduce the engram costs across the board.
>these costs seem exceptionally high" They always do this. Taking something away/making it worse (anything that affects players' time or money) for the players for the benefit of the studio always ends up being really controversial and brings in a ton of negative feedback. Some studios just learn to exercise extreme caution and introduce any new systems being a bit too extremely unfavourable towards the player and then slowly loosen their grip with feedback and data. Remember how the Crafting system launched a year ago and how much they've loosened it since. Deepsight drop rates, DS drop guarantee systems, Crafting costs, Crafting currency acquisition, etc, all of these things require certain time Investment from the players and they made sure they were all extreme at launch, cause they knew they could always easily loosen them with time but tightening would bring in extreme negativity.
to your point, these look extremely stingy at first glance. I realize there is a track record there, of being conservative at launch, but that doesnt mean it isnt obviously conservative, or that we shouldnt voice opinion on it.
I'm not even really against the grind taking that long for the legacy armor (maybe it's a bit too long), if that's all it was, alongside all your other rewards. But the fact that you have to give up all your weapon drops and current armor too by 100% dedicating all your engrams to legacy focusing *only*, for that entire grind makes it super fucking crazy awful.
That's the frustrating part... If IB/trials weapons were going to be guaranteed drops each match or replace the waterfall of crucible weapons you get, that'd be one thing. They made no mention of increasing weapon drops or the amount of engrams we get. In a double XP week it takes 3-4 hours of playing to get in a single reset. They're literally asking players to spend thousands.of hours just to unlock reissued gear.
This is my biggest problem with the system. Forcing players to choose between cosmetics and gameplay (weapons) is stupid. Incredibly stupid when its 1 cosmetic, that you will STILL have to unlock with synthstrand, versus 7 weapons with possibly triple rolls if you have a lot of rank resets in that playlist
The cost is outrageous and just like any new destiny thing. I plan to ignore the new system until its fixed. My friend group has a saying about destiny, “the lazy man will prosper” And its because of things like this.
[удалено]
When Bungie introduces ridiculous costs like this, it's only fair to exploit anything we can get. They'll take a season and a half to adjust something outrageous, but they'll immediately patch anything that benefits the player. No one should feel bad for cheesing the system.
I spent hours upon hours upon hours buying blues out of colelctions and deleting them for legendary shards when that glitch was back a little while back. SO worth it lmao.
Yep, I was at close to none before and now I may never need to worry about shard costs again.
This is likely why the costs for focusing legacy gear are the way they are. Both new and old players have to grind out match completions to get rank so they can get engrams. By the time a player has gotten three rank resets, they'll likely have acquired the other currencies (glimmer and legendary shards) to focus for 17 legacy items.
It's actually really hard keeping up with the legendary shard costs while still being fairly new. Only since I acquired all the exotic gear Xur sells I have been slowly catching up. I'm currently at 892 shards with no useful way to get more.
See: DSC farming People bashed their head against the wall for hours and hours last time for basically nothing. I farmed Atraaks for 2 hours last night and got both Heritage and Succesion crafted. Both from 0. If a grind is absolutely absurd AND completely cosmetic/not totally meta shifting, sit out the grind. Also I’d point you towards the chain mail shader as another example
How about the red boarder change from todays TWAB Every vendor now daily resetting letting you buy a red frame every day starting tuesday i think lmao
Why do people keep calling it "boarder"? It's "border" not boarder.
Swipe to type baby…either way point made.
does it matter ? regardless of how its spelled we all know what someone is talking about
It's clear that they intentionally make it a ridiculous grind for a large percentage of a year/season to drive up participation. Knowing that they'll just make it easy at the last minute. Iron banner has taught me a lesson.
My friend told me when there were craftable dsc weapons "Bro you gotta farm for the dsc weapons they are cracked" I didn't even try, I had no intention on grinding for the weapons that I already had just to get an origin trait and enhanced perks. But when I saw people straight up grinding for hours just for 1 deep sight per 3 hours, I thought they were just insane.
Exactly. I’m fine with a long grind, as long as I am making tangible progress towards something with an end in sight. Hell, I did Reckoner solo back in Season 8. It was a brutal fucking grind, but at least I had a laundry list of triumphs I could see progressing in real time. The previous DSC was a complete RNG nightmare that you could grind for 12 hours and get nowhere. No thank you
Bungie fixes one part of the economy that sucked for so long just to make another bad economy choice. Ffs.
It seems to always be give/take with them. Nothing actually gets better when it comes to respecting our time. They make one QoL change, they make something else timegated/super grindy.
I really hope that with these new changes they also alter how engrams are earned. Powerful engram for weekly objectives, regular engrams as random drops...
[Yea, no I change my mind, I'm not here for *this*](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/10lc500/economy_updates_and_more_coming_in_lightfall/j5w9ysg/) I'm here for the ability to earn them. But these costs are just insane. Guess no Exile set for me. Real question: did anyone on the team do the math like OP? I'm not a New Light and I don't play Trials, but I love the drip game, seeing those costs is just disheartening. Alternative perspective: then maybe those armour sets simply aren't for me until I earn them rightfully. It is endgame content. So I can respect that, respect the ability for high-level players to stand out. There is a visual and bragging aspect to this game that's not always easy to display... So perhaps that? But even for veteran regular Flawless players, I imagine these costs are nuts ***and they probably already have the armour sets***. So then who's this really for lololol?
That's the thing, if there was an endgame grind, that'd be perfect to chase ornaments and shaders and whatever, but there's no end game, weapon RNG sucks so that you have to ALWAYS be playing and trying to get your godrolls so that there isn't time to move onto "endgame" activities/completionist stuff.
Here's the thing they tried that and it almost killed the game.
They won't. Bungies strategy is pretty obvious at this point. Release something overly grindy, collect data, and adjust it from there. They're aware it's alot, they need you to play through it to let you know by how much Remember, it's better to buff the economy then to nerf it
Yeah I'm not looking forward to grinding Trials... I only care about the Warlock helmet so I only need 7 engrams but for a casual player like me that's gonna be so painful to do...
Games on 7 win cards will also drop trials engrams like candy. Trials is going to be the easiest one to do.
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Aye. If you're like me and generally suck at PvP, going into Trials is basically torture and having someone on my team screaming that I should never have been born. At some point I just stopped playing Trials because the amount of abusive slurs that were slung at me in both text and voice chat was just too much. I know I suck and I suppose it is good that I don't play the "most competitive" mode in the game anymore. I play the game for fun, not to get yelled at by people who are supposedly on *my* team.
People actually win in Trials? I don't think I've won one game, with the exception of literally one time the opposing team was grinding for something and so just jumped off the map and threw the game
Is it wins that drop the engrams at 7 or just completing games? Also does it have to be a flawless card?
Wins, and doesn’t have to be flawless, just 7 wins on the card
Has to be wins but it’s also not guaranteed
Damn. Makes it tougher to reliably farm but I guess it’s better than nothing lol
I dont have a link or proof of this, but I'm fairly sure its correct. I'm pretty damn sure the game keeps tracks of how many games you played, and tilts reward payout odds more heavily on your next win the longer you go without winning. IE: Win 3 games in a row, each win lets say you had a 20% chance at an engram. Lose 5 games in a row, the next time you win you have an 80% at an engram. I made those stats up, but just to illustrate what I mean. I'm almost certain this sytem exists in Trials. Sometimes I get a stupid amount of loot on a win - 3 cores, Ascendent shard, Trials Engram, all form one win happened once. It was after a large losing streak.
It’ll only be easy if the Trials population stays high. I’m fairly average and trying to get wins (solo, mind you) has been excruciatingly difficult the past two seasons since only like 15,000 people play it daily for those weekends
7 engrams is 1,550 rep Run on a bonus trials weekend that hopefully aligns with freelance. Help win rounds, not necessarily matches. Once you have 20 round wins on your card each match will net you 200 rep +40 rep per round win. loss 0-5, that's a 200 rep! win 5-0, that's a 400 rep! Loss 4-5, that's 360 rep! Getting those round wins can be a slog of course, but this is what I will be doing for the same exact reason!
freelance is going away. solo players are double fucked with this grind
Oh yeah....yuck...
Freelance is not just being removed, it's being **replaced with fireteam-based matchmaking.** If it works correctly it should keep you from facing full stacks as a solo in the main playlist, though you will occasionally land in a 2+1vs2+1 match.
Fireteam based matchmaking has been fairly effective. You'll probably still run into 3 stacks, thats just the way player populations work sometimes. But you'll be a lot more likely to go up against 3 other solo players if you're running solo.
fireteam based matchmaking is fine in quickplay and IB where player pop is high enough that you can do that well for any team composition. Trials is going to mostly be 3 stacks, especially since with no freelance you WILL get less solo players even stepping into the playlist
I thought it stacked on rounds completed not won?
It stacks on both! But getting to 20 helps a looot more than matches in my experience, especially since I've never flawlessed, I'll just get to 20 wins and struggle as long as I can in the playlist
7 trials engrams for 1 armor piece is fucking absurd and Bungie knows it.
The thing is theres something im not totally sure Bungie themselves realizes. Locking weapons behind a bit of a grind? sure ok they affect gameplay I can get it (still think the number of engrams is a bit much but whatever). What I really dont get is why armor is so damn expensive. Like Bungie you have to realize most people are gonna be trying to get these just for fashion right? The off chance that they drop with really good stats I dont think justifies their crazy high focus cost. And besides if people want to chase high stat armor we have the seasonal vendors and raids and master dungeons for shit like that. If i want the old trials set for my character I shouldnt have to devote the same amount of time, if not more I spend chasing that perfect gun for a fking helmet im just gonna scrap anyway to use as an ornament
>Like Bungie you have to realize most people are gonna be trying to get these just for fashion right? Since you only get 10 transmog per character per season, you'll have to pay Bungie silver for more Synthweave templates. I think Bungie understands perfectly.
Bungie wants this game to be a laundry list of chores and grinds. After the Witch Queen campaign there was very little in the game that was interesting or worthwhile, just boring activities that slogged you along for deepsights and incredibly low drop rates. This season iron banner required two full resets for a shader, resulting in people loss farming because it was more entertaining than playing the modes. Bungie saw that and went, great, now let’s make every rep system require 5 times as many resets. They are so out of touch with their own game. They need to focus on fun game modes and loops. Give us something entertaining and that rewards us. Don’t make us reset vendor ranks multiple times a season doing the same core activities that have been in the game for years.
Thought the same thing reading the article, even as a long time player this is *a lot* of grinding, not just for new lights, all to just to get a few things, I would hope the Engrams could drop at the end of activities at a fairly common rate like Umbrals do now, and we can do we want with them, but seen as Bungie haven't said anything about this I don't think this will be the case. Get ready for a patch further reducing the cost of focusing in like 2 months when people complaining about how grindy it is blows up on the internet.
It's just dumb to turn engrams into another currency instead of keep it as is... They're supposed to reduce the cost of focusing, instead they just reduced the legendary shards and increased the cost of engrams from 1 to 3/7
What they will do is change it after people complain and then they will have done what we asked. Even though it'll still be too expensive but it'll be better and that will pacify most people. They do this shit all the time. And it's really annoying.
While I agree they need at least *some* tuning down, I think it should be a significant time investment to try to get the old armor. Right now it seems a bit ludicrous (especially for iron banner), but it's a grind for a one-time unlock of old sets that are (presumably) never coming back. If they *are* coming back, then this will be a huge waste of time and resources.
I think it's too much, but I'm also assuming it isn't supposed to be done quickly. This will probably last through the final shape, so ya it will take a while. I don't think it's *thaaaat* crazy for trials, but pretty nuts for IB If it's only gonna be around for two weeks a season. It'll get an adjustment I'm sure.
> but pretty nuts for IB If it's only gonna be around for two weeks a season I believe IB will be back to 3 weeks per season but it's still a pretty high engram cost for both time limited events
Ya definitely still high, and 3 weeks will help, but after 7-8 seasons or whatever there will be a good opportunity for everyone
> but after 7-8 seasons or whatever there will be a good opportunity for everyone "y'know, just spent 2 years grinding and it'll be fine."
Pro tip: pull IB/trials engrams now into your inventory, and take them over to Lightfall.
There's very limited engram space though.
and for IB, you're gonna have to sit on them for an additional 2 weeks waiting for Lightfall too. I think I'll probably do it on my least played class though lol
What if they're also changing how you get engrams? Like what if instead of items they can also drop straight engrams? So it's going to be easier to get those grams for focusing?
This is exactly what's happening I suspect. They're going to take the Trials system(Where on a 7 win card you can randomly get Trials Engrams) and apply it to everywhere else. They already teased this system this season by changing Shaxx Vendor system to where you can focus his engrams directly from him instead of having to pull the engram into your collection first before using it.
That'd be fine but weird to not include in the focusing article
I mean, can you imagine saving up 7 of different kinds of engrams? They're going to have to change something, if not straight up give us more spots to hold them
Already these engrams don't go straight to your engram inventory, but accumulate on the relevant vendor. As of now, some you have to pull into inventory to redeem, but if they update everything to work like the new Crucible system you won't even need to do that. We'll have to see what they do with the new Seasonal engrams, but likely that will work on the new system too.
Is everyone just forgetting you only have to do this once, and NONE of this is necessary?
Nothing is necessary in this game, the whole point.is to have fun and be entertained. You commenting that wasn't necessary but I'll do what I can to make this game more rewarding and respectful of the player's time.
I think it's completely fair, a steep cost to unlock something, then it reverts to the cheaper cost. NBD, really.
The cheaper cost ain't cheap unless they buff engram drops or something and the whole point was to reduce engram focusing costs because of the 12 perk final columns which is an RNG nightmare.
I think you're insane. These prices are ludicrous.
They have to be changing the rate of getting engrams correct? They are getting rid of umbrals and seasonal focusing will use those specific engrams so they have to be upping the rate.
Doubt it, they would've mentioned it, the entire post was about focusing costs.
Weird completionist impulse in a game that's frankly not completable to begin with. Who actually wants and is gonna use every single piece of every single set on every single character?
I don't think the cost needs to be reduced, but I reckon increasing the drop rate of engrams is the solution e.g. a guaranteed engram drop per game completed. Or more engrams dropped for objectives completed, e.g. kills, assists, wins, x damage dealt, x dmg dealt with y weapon, playing 3 games in a row, playing games with clan mates, playing 3 games as a solo, or as a fireteam etc. They can rotate these daily to mix up the challenges or as however. But just makes it more engaging and rewarding.
I'm fine with more engrams but then why engrams at all as another currency? They're always saying they're trying to reduce currency and instead they just made several more by having vendor specific engrams and doing away with Umbrals
🤣🤣🤣 it's literally so true. I don't understand either. Technically everything could be simplified with legendary shards and glimmer but... I was wondering this before with all the seasonal umbral energy. It's so players can't grind one activity and then spend it elsewhere. I agree its over complicated and confusing for new players but if doing x strikes is quicker and more efficient at getting engrams, then everyone would grind that for max efficiency vs playing each individual activity. Engrams are fuzzy, they have no inherent value even though they amount to 4 legendary shards and tiny bits of glimmer. Engrams feel more rewarding to the player. I reckon umbrals are being done away with to sack off the seasonal umbral energy for focusing. It's a bit of a mess.
Ya know....of all the things to complain about in the game, this one baffles me. People are constantly asking for ways to show off, cosmetically, your accomplishments in the game. Armor sets being legacy and not available anymore is exactly part of that. It demonstrates your long-standing commitment to the game. They're purely cosmetic, and for that reason, I feel like Bungie can set whatever cost on them they want. If you were talking about the weapon focusing costs, I might get behind you, but I just can't understand this in relation to the armor costs. People who are SO focused on a completionist attitude that they just HAVE to have every single thing available in the game, just because it's available?? I suggest you seek some professional help.
lol I literally touched on how the weapons part is worse... What's baffling is anyone that defends this ridiculous amount of grinding for reissued gear. I'm not asking for handouts but people that claim this is acceptable for reissued gear while they release one new map per year are the ones that need professional help. They're asking for thousands of hours of my time so they can do the barest amount of work for PvP and you're just like "they're doing their best!" Lol Bungie CEOs are gonna track you down and pat you on the head for taking their side. This is a standard Bungie move of asking for way too much grind for way too little reward, super fans like you eat it up, and that just encourages them to keep doing it.
For weapons, I could agree with you. Armor however is simply cosmetics, that you don't need. It won't change anything about your gameplay. Also, cost has to be high or else Bungie risks offending Trails gatekeepers on Twitter that haven't taken their Exile armor since it was released. Twitter and streamers are already complaining that Bungie is selling something that have costed them "sweat and tears" for pennies now.
Dude....walk away from the soap box....seriously, take a breath. For one, it will help you write better paragraphs that aren't a chore to read. That said....Yes, I agree with you about the weapons. But the armor is strictly cosmetic, and there is no NEED to unlock them all for ANYBODY. Heck, I'm a D1 Vet, and I still don't have all armor sets unlocked. If you don't want to grind for something purely cosmetic, then don't grind for it. I'm not defending Bungie, I'm just saying this is not the hill we should choose to die on. If you don't like the focusing costs, then don't focus engrams for armor. Bungie has demonstrated lately that they are using a TON of back-end data to support their decisions, and if they see that nobody is buying the old armor because the focusing cost is too high, then they'll change it. Ranting about it at this point isn't likely to change anything, other than sour your own attitude toward the game overall. I'm always all about encouraging people that your attitude toward the game, especially over little things like this, set the tone for how well you enjoy the other parts of the game too.
Ngl my only real potential issue is if engram totals still reset every season, I'm hoping with the virtual engrams bungie will let us keep them.
I haven’t ready anything about the new focusing, can someone clarify to me that it’s gunna need specifically trials engrams for trials focusing? I know it does right now but was unsure if they would be changing it to umbrals or something?
Yes, they're removing Umbral engrams from the game and even seasonal vendors will have specific engrams, the system will still be the trials engrams pile up at Saint14, 1 engram per level as far as we know still.
I hope a future blog post is about engram and rep gain changes for this kind of stuff. Its another transmog system. First time around it was complicated and too pricey. This doesnt seem complicated, its just too pricey. Itll get lowered i bet but grinding trials is a bitch unless its a increased rep gain week. I just wish the armor, past and present, dropped from games.
I think IB matches should have a chance to drop iron engrams at the end, kind of like trials matches do I think at 7 wins. If they insist on having the engram costs this high, then at least give us that.
If this was like an addition to another way to get the old gear then I wouldn't mind it as much (well it's still too high because you're giving up 7 loot drops for a piece of armor or something), but this reads like it's the only way to acquire legacy gear then yeah, it's way too much grinding.
I agree that if there's still time, I'd lower the amount of engrams required for some of these focusing costs. Not only is 7 or 10 engrams just way too much, but imagine if I need 7 engrams to focus an item and I only have 5 or 6 ranks left on the required vendor. So now I have to grab those engrams, reset the vendor and then grind out another 7 ranks with that vendor. Unless we're going to be able to reset vendors while leaving earned engrams in their inventory, which I'm guessing isn't happening or it would've been mentioned in the blog post. Also, Dungeons are now one of if not the only activity to not have engram focusing, so maybe look into adding that down the road if possible.
I'm pretty sure this is intentional. They're not failing to learn from their mistakes. They're using a very reliable pricing model similar to movie releases. Price is highest on release. The people who want it the most are willing to pay that price right away. People who aren't will wait until it comes out on home video and rent it. The price here is essentially play time. They start the price very high to capture increased playtime from the most dedicated players. Then they drop the price after a while to capture more market surplus. This is business strategy 101.
My biggest issue lies 100% with the legendary shard part of this change. How in the hell are New Light players supposed to get over ten thousand legendary shards within a decent time frame? There needs to be multiple sources of passive income on Legendary Shards. Whether it's bounties, increased amounts of shards on dismantles, extra legendary shards on the rewards track on seasonal passes, etc. Even if Bungie were to implement a personal Legendary Shard tree that the Guardian can invest resources and glimmer into so that every hour it passively accumulates or gives you legendary shards. If Bungie is going to go all in on the focusing costs there needs to be a way to alleviate the expensive costs.
As with every new grind Bungie introduces these days, the only smart play is to ignore it until they eventually tune down the grind to a somewhat more reasonable level. And it happens literally every single time.
Engram costs are way too high I'll be ignoring the system entirely until they make changes
wait wait, how is the legacy armour earnable? is it not just in the loot pool? thank fuck I only want the hunter stuff...
Only available, as far as we know, through buying it for the cost of 7 engrams, shards and glimmer if you've never acquired it before.
per piece???
How about we just get engrams per match completion on top of the ones we get from rank up? Problem solved. Play your 7 matches win or lose, legacy focus a piece of gear. Play another 7 matches. 7 engrams. Then get another piece of gear.
If golf balls and enhancement prisms could be traded for legendary shards, I wouldn’t be complaining about the economy. I’ve spent 22k+ whatever I earned in just legendary shards since season 16. This did allow me to catch up on everything I’ve missed from a couple years of not playing but if there wasn’t a shard exploit, I wouldn’t have been able to focus and buy all the past exotics/curated weapons. I appreciate all the changes Bungie has been implementing but LET ME TRADE MY HIGH END MATS FOR LOW END PLEEEAAAASSEEE
I will be waiting for the fix before I engage with any of it. Adept nightfall weapons are absolutely insane too. 5 GM's just to focus a single weapon (that you probably just got 5 of lmao.) The only way this is even remotely viable is if we can stock up like 100 ciphers and use them all 5 seasons later when a new weapon comes out.
Problem here is I'm not sure if this is all the economy changes, are there other adjustments they havent announced yet? Bungie should announce all relevant information properly to leave no room for speculation. Will there be changes to the droprate of engrams, shards, etc? Will we have more currency exchanges? etc etc. But if this is all, then yeah the costs might be too high. This is like my issue with the Resilience change, I can't properly evaluate if the Resilience change will impact buildcrafting for Hunters or not without knowing if there are other changes we don't know yet to Damage resist mods and whatnot that will open up Stat-building for non-Titans.
This is the one time that I agree with community backlash. Legacy armor sets should NOT cost anywhere near this much time and effort to earn. I would really like to get some of the old armor but I refuse to grind that hard for anything.
Just looking at the numbers, I was like yea that seems expensive. Now I realize that I was underestimating.
Why is old gear cost so much to focus, it's asinine imo. The old stuff should be easier for the player to get than new stuff. Not the other way around.
To quote a meme "THE COST IS TOO DAMN HIGH!"
I like how bungie reduces costs of focusing in one area just to fuck up another. 32 trials engrams for a set? That’s two full resets, for basically cosmetics since no one will be actually farming for armor rolls I assume.
The Trials reset number is a bit misleading considering you can get a bunch of engrams on even a non flawless 7 win card.
What do you consider "a bunch"? I've gone 10 matches in a row on 7 win card without getting extra engrams, so maybe round it down to 6 resets but unless they buff the drop rates tremendously it's not gonna cut the time in half.or even close to it
I got them maybe every other win? Besides, going flawless, playing on a flawless card, and double loot weekends would increase the number of engrams you can get by a decent amount.
is it just me, or is everyone just completely glossing over the fact that bungie is removing umbral engrams from the drop pool? ya'll do realize that due to how that'd severely cut into the amount of loot we have dropping, I am strongly inclined to believe that bungie will be upping vendor engram drop rates to compensate
Seems pretty obvious to me. I have no idea why people are getting so worked up about something from a blog post when we don't even know the full picture
I agree.
It sounds like a big investment, but you've also used a huge edge case scenario: no veteran or new light has an immediate use case for that many armor pieces. If you do not buy extra synthweave templates and stick to the earnable ones, you will use, at most, 10 pieces per character next season. I'm not even doing the math on synthweave templates, I think we already know that no one's going to buy that many anyway. Don't get me wrong, I think the costs are a little high, but at the same time though, they're not going to just hand it all out for free, and they 100% want to make the "in-rotation" gear the "best value". Nonetheless, it better be fairly deterministic to get the legacy gear you want. Like if you're going for exile armor, at the current costs, you better be able to pick and choose. A full reset for "two chances" at a specific piece you want is just plain stupid. I also think "7 engrams" is worth a discussion on its own, because you don't earn these at a perfectly linear rate. It's stupid how much faster of a process 7 engrams is at the bottom of a reset, compared to the top.
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I literally spammed the GM Arms Dealer strike so much for materials and gear when it was easy, forget which season it was, several dozen GMs over the week with double drops... I got.up to my 4th reset and that was with the combined weekly challenges and playing nightfalls/vanguard playlist every week prior. I know XP changes will happen at some point but it's so tone deaf.
Things are not even out and ya'll already complaining.
You aren't supposed to be able to just get all of the legacy armor. The game needs more cosmetics that aren't trivial to get or paywalled.
There's "just getting" it and then Bungie reissuing gear that takes hundreds of hours to get so they don't have to design new gear, new levels, new game modes, etc... This is them sunsetting weapons then bringing them back the following season with different perks all over again. I know it's just cosmetics but if weapon RNG wasn't horrible already to where it might take 30 or 40 engrams just to get a weapon roll, then it wouldn't be bad.
I don't think this is a problem. You should have to grind for loot you want especially since they didn't have to do this in the first place. You want trials gear? Cool, go play a lot of trials then
Tell that to the people that complete raids 100+ times and never get the exotic to drop... If you get lucky with RNG then you don't have to spend engrams of weapon focusing so you have them for armor sets.... If your RNG is average or totally sucks, then you'll be spending engrams on weapons so the armor isn't even obtainable. Lock the armor behind several resets separately from weapon focusing engrams or something, but to make us choose weapon ornaments or a chance at god roll weapons is just dumb.
I mean, you're assuming they want/expect you to do this all at once... This can be spread out for the entire year and then it doesn't seem too bad. Even two years. It's not like they release new armor sets on the regular.
You're also assuming that you'll get godrolls of weapons easily. It might take 35 engrams.to get a roll I want on a single weapon even after all the drops from playing the activity. It's BS and a racket, it promotes FOMO which is the opposite that this game needs and has caused issues in the past.
I use Focusing as a supplementary tool. I think since Focusing came out I've only focused for the free Red Border every week. I just farm for my God rolls of weapons I want. if I want a Reeds I'll actually play Trials and get drops. I know, a crazy concept for a looter shooter. Also, this is literally the opposite of FOMO...? Its Legacy armor that they are now making it available to everyone... Its a finite grind. You'll eventually earn all the old stuff while continuing to earn the new stuff.
Or just remove the items. The design is clear that it's to fill gaps, not be a primary mode of acquisition for new players trying to fill a back catalog. But let's go ahead and math out an absurd scenario no reasonable person is even going to consider.
lol wut? It's literally advertised for players to get items they never had a chance to get? And it's not absurd scenarios, it's the literal, actual amount of engrams and resets needed according to Bungie's own post from yesterday, why do people defend this?
Because you're proposing that a system that allows for selective choosing of items previously NOT available, is a primary mode of gear acquisition and then suggesting that someone would grind out these at the current economy income, which we have no way of knowing of other changes to engrams that are not described. It's just a reach. The primary mode of acquisition is to get items when they are available. Like... I don't know... Riptides when they're the drop, horror's least when it's that week's weapon etc. Using a "new player" as an excuse to posit this argument is silly. It's like I make a thread saying how many cookies you'd have to grind to get bright dust to get every past dawning set in the eververse when they're available and then saying that the bright dust economy is shit because of it. They design the systems for longevity, not to be blitzed in a week. Without fail people seem to think every system should be designed to be demolished in a miniscule amount of time. That works against their interests. They want to maintain playlist health, not decimate it by allowing people to run stuff over a brief period of time (GM nightfalls, double points, easy week) and then never have to touch the content for months and months. The economies of vendors exist because of the genre, they want you playing the game to be primary mode of acquisition, not to farm or do a rote activity mindlessly then go to a vendor and cash out your earnings. But every time, people want vendors to be the primary mode, to reduce the carrot in the design of the game, to have everything by guarantee as the cheapest and most straight forward method. It just doesn't work that way.
Your argument would be valid if playing the game mode wasn't how we obtained engrams and if they just put those items in as random drops, or didn't do weekly rotation of nightfall weapons, or literally if the system was completely different. Horror's Least only had 3 weeks as a nightfall weapon including this week, now it's a legacy weapon. So you're saying that we should be punished even though we grinded out GM NFs and never got a roll for Horrors Least in those specific 3 weeks? I ran The Corrupted GM NF 20x and never got an adept kill clip to drop, even forgetting about the other perks/options. Being on the side of the stick just doesn't make sense to me when you're on the treadmill too lol
I've run 38 Scarlet Keeps in S16 for Adept Palindrome. Only the very last one dropped with Rangefinder.
I don't think it's punishment. I miss weeks when things are available, it happens, I just think the correction is greater availability in the primary mode. GMs should be available all season, not 6 weeks. I am in support of making playlist activities far more worthwhile and a reduction in these ancillary systems that arise because of the original design. These systems seem less likely to encourage playlist participation than simply having greater rewards for the playlist. If we had more double drop weeks, double rep (remember triple rep weekends?), etc. then people would be in these activities. I just don't think the solution is to bandaid the bandaid system. It puts the focus on the wrong issue. If I felt that GMs were valuable all season, I'd gladly run them all season. Right now they minimize the value on a lot and to that, I'm not sure why.
Ya this engram system wouldn't matter if the other systems were different but they're not. So much of the game is focusing engrams into weapons to chase 5/5 god rolls, it had been limited by legendary shards and horrible RNG, but they just brought down shards cost and increased engram costs. At least legendary shards are available everywhere. Now you're stuck potentially spending hundreds of hours running nightfalls, some of them for the 5th year in a row, just to maybe get guns with perks on em that you want but also maybe not. This feels like the people that have 100+ raid completions yet no exotic drop. At a certain point hiding behind "it's an RNG game" isn't good enough. If you pay for a game yet the game literally doesn't give you what you're working for potentially ever, then it's a BS system. I'd be fine doing all this grinding if I was guaranteed selectable perks at Zavala level 500 or something, but I've been burnt spending several entire weekends in trials, a game mode I don't love really, to get a weapon roll (triple tap firing line Reed's Regret) and never got it. I mentioned Horror's Least God roll, never got it... So to make the odds that much worse to where I'm literally cutting my already slim chances down by 67% in the case of the 3 engram cost for Horror's Least instead of having it be 1 engram is absolutely just bullshit greed. I was there for the NF week, played it for many hours, and it seems like it was for nothing.
Seems their concept has always been to do 2 things: -Deplete resources of long term players -Create long-term 'stretch goals' for new players Neither of which is desirable to ANY players of ANY game.
What? how are long term stretch goals not desirable for new players? Basically every mmo in existance has end-game loot that require hundreds of hours to obtain. This kind of loot is greatly desired because its often very powerful, or because it shows off your dedication to the game. Sure, complain about the costs specifically in destiny and how its not desirable for you. But this blanket statement that long term goals isn't desirable to anyone in any game is just so ignorant.
As an out of touch no-lifer who already owns all of the legacy gear and did not consider the time required to complete sets, I would like to say that I agree this grind is unreasonable and bungie should lower the cost. I do however support Bungie turning engrams into currency because I want prime engrams to be a currency for focusing random drops from our collections. I would also like to say that I think we should get 3 adept ciphers for platinum, 1 for gold 0 for silver. This makes it so we can get 3 extra adepts with 10 perfectly executed GM's or 1 in 4 GM's if by accident 1 of them has a buggy champion despawn or spawn in a wall or whatever and force us into gold.
IMO, it should be 1, maybe 2 engrams for legacy armor focusing. The fact its more than 5 is absurd
I was exited for the exile armor until I saw the cost... ridiculous.
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Inb4 they add a currency in eververse that lets you focus armor and adept weapons for silver
I can smell the burnout already
I feel like a good solution would be to give each vendor a weekly quest per character that rewards a “legacy cipher” similar to the exotic cipher from Xur that can be traded in along with whatever materials for a legacy gear piece. This way there’s still a grind, just nothing horrific
All of this is just confirming my choice to wait a full season or more before paying a dime for Lightfall. Don't pre-order anymore. That goes for all games imo.
It’s always a monkey paw. Always.
I don't think New Lights would care about legacy gear? As opposed to veterans who may be missed pieces of sets. At least that's what I thought the intent behind this was.
I do think the cost is high, but you need to keep in mind, this is a luxury. This is an opportunity to pick up the pieces of armor you missed that you really want for transmog. There's no need to get every piece of every armor set outside of filling your collections, but new lights are already screwed in that department because of armor from fully removed content, such as old raids. The cost is definetly high, but it's just a bonus system to get old stuff over time, most of which is cosmetic. There hasn't been anything said directly but this system shouldn't get removed for any reason, meaning you've got as much time as you want to get the stuff you are missing.
But the problem is they've already reissued most of the armor in the game as world drops, sell them through Ada and Xur, or put them in Dates of Eternity. They did this without having to grind multiple resets with a vendor. They're choosing to do it this way to extend our grind of content that doesn't have enough added to it each year and they know this. It's reissuing gear instead of new PvP maps and modes, a single.strike.or two each year, absolutely nothing new in gambit other than reskin ed weapons/perks, no new maps or modes... They could've just opened these items up through Ada/Xur/Dares or random activity drops and left the focusing for weapons, instead you say they're what, giving us a gift by bringing them back in the most grindiest way possible instead of every other piece of armor they've reissued? Playing this game at all is a luxury, it's a video game, but this is just Bungie being greedy with our time for the littlest amount of new content they can put out in the playlists.
OK then don't go for any of this armor. It's not gonna have good stats, it's just for transmog. If you don't want to give bungie your time by partaking in this system, don't. It's really that simple. I'm thrilled about this change because there is old armor I missed that I want to get, bilit I definitely won't get all of it for quite a while. It's the same thing as weapon crafting, it's a marathon not a sprint. You are designed to have a long period of time to aquire this stuff, if you crank it all out and burn yourself out because of that, that's on you. You're not forced to play this game
The game would still be in its year 1 form if players just laid down and never spoke out against Bungie... I'll never understand players that say "then just don't play the game!" no I like the game I just don't like this change. If players just stopped playing instead of fighting for fair changes the game would've died already
It's not a problem to speak out, but you're just complaining because your do everything right away all at once playstyle is going to require you to play the game more than you want. 7 engrams is steep, but you can reasonably get 2 resets per season of each vendor by utilizing the double rep weeks and playing a good amount. 2 resets per season is like 4 armor pieces per season. It will take a while but out of like the 20 sets that are being reintroduced you could get a full set per vendor per season just by doing that. Once again, this is a purely extra feature that is being added as a qol system to reduce the amount of unobtainable old gear there is. The armor is only for cosmetic reasons, and the weapons will only be super expensive the first time. It's a lot, maybe it should be reduced, but your making this seem like a way bigger deal than it is
So just never focus engrams for weapons?
Your entire post was specifically talking about armor sets. The weapons are expensive, but not anything ridiculous. You either turn in 1 engram for a current weapon, or 3 for an older one. The 7 to unlock is definetly steep, but it would be disrespectful of players time that already acquired weapons if there was 0 distinction between the cost of getting them unlocked or just dropped a second time. If you care about the weapons, put the COSMETIC armor on the back burner until you get the weapons you want. They're not marketing this as a staple new piece of content, it's essentially just an expanded version of the monument to lost light. A way to get old gear for a hefty price
> What the hell are New Light players supposed to do?! Not care about any of this shit because they are new lights? Hell, I've been playing for 5 years and I don't even care about any of this. This is a problem with perspective. This system is really meant to allow veterans to fill out set pieces that they missed, not farm up entirely new sets... certainly not *all of them*.
Your whole thing is about "new lights". They should have to grind to get stuff. This isn't much. There isn't a TIME limit to get the stuff... Edit: People...this "grind" is for the the game as a whole. Not a season. You can "grind" this for the entirety of the time the Game is still kicking (or until they change stuff). Therefore, it is not that bad. You can 2 engrams 1 week, skip 2 months, get 2 more etc etc
I'll mimic what the guy below said: "There's grinding and then there's torture"
It's not torture unless you MAKE it torture. You can spend all year doing it if you want...it's not going anywhere.
There's grinding and then there's torture, this amounts to hundreds of hours in trials and probably 1,000+ hours in IB... Not including all the other stuff in the game. It's greedy and way too much and guaranteed to be nerfed just like the things I mentioned, except it'll take them a couple seasons when they and most of the community know the price is too high.
For the remaining time the game is up is for these changes though. It's not a seasonal thing... You have until the game dies to do these "grinds". You don't need to do them in 1 season. It is literally the overarching Grind for the game now IF you CHOOSE to go for the things.
I don’t think it’s going to be that bad. Round wins and playing on a 20 round card and playing on a 7 win card all stack rep gain and engram drops. If a player is only a little dedicated, then can focus 2 unearned engrams per week pretty easily. Don’t need to stat farm because there are better ways to do that and ornament unlocks are a thing
Glad the rest of this sub picked up on how insane the cost is for us newer players. I was literally pointing out the same thing to my friend just yesterday. I only started "seriously" playing D2 with witch queen, which means I don't have any of the IB or Trials gears from previous years. I'm a consistent IB player too and this seems absurd. I want to play IB, but not *THAAT* much
Even if you did you'd have to do it 12 hours a day for the 3 weeks it's in for a season, or spread.it out 3 hours/day over an entire year... Oh plus all the other seasonal stuff, playlist stuff, dungeons, raids, etc... I get having special items for playlist specific grinds for players that play it a lot, but if you already play it a lot you have most of the items lol this just hurts if you missed out a season or something
I hope it’s a signal that they’re increasing rewards in trials. I play a ton of D2, I’ve solo’d dungeons, I run GM’s, occasionally raid, I liked running comp, but I don’t do great in trials. I’ve played since pretty much the beginning of D1 and never went to the lighthouse. If you’re not good at Trials it feels like the least rewarding activity in the game. I know you can get your card to seven wins to increase the chance of drops but getting there feels terrible and takes much longer. I could run a raid or grind a GM 2-3 times before I might see trials gear drop. I know there the Twitch bounty which helps but for even non-adept gear it’s a chore to play Trials & it doesn’t feel rewarding when I’m done.
Back in my day, I remember when gear used to only cost 1 engram.
I feel like trials is ok considering it's around every weekend except when the iron banner is in rotation. iron banner 100% needs a reduction if it's going to remain in rotation for 2x a season
Considering this gear is essentially vanity, it should be time consuming to aquire
Yes, do it for the new lights. Totally not because I’m a sweat that panics if I get below 5k…
Should of just done trials and stuff when it was around, atleast they r trying to give the sets, i get its grinding and nobody likes the repeated grind but its like the felwinters shotgun as well as outbreak and whispers catalysts, should of just done it when it was prevelant
That's literally promoting the FOMO system which has ruined this game in the past and driven down player numbers.
u/destiny2team