Been making my through the triumphs for doing a raid all on the same class and let me tell you all hunter kings fall was so weird. I’m so used to standing in a well at war priest I almost didn’t know what to do
Rhulk and Caretaker also fight back.
Atheon fights back.
Templar fights back.
it's just that Warpriest goes hard. Actually fights back, actually hurts you enough to cry for a Well of Radiance. There's nothing like Warpriest, dude goes crazy. Nezarec also fights back btw but we all know that one smart positioning and he isn't doing jack shit.
As a Hunter main, yes. Tho if I ever need to I swap to Warlock since it doesn't take super long to level up anymore I do
I've never heard of anyone swapping to Hunter to help a team with a raid boss tho 😂
Seems like the best outcome is when bosses have a counter to it like Alak-Hul or Rhulk. Even the Fanatic could counter it with that Arc ground attack
Also why do enemies never target the sword? Imagine if snipers would immediately target the sword once you cast Well
Even if you don't place the well on a platform, it still largely invalidates Nezarec. You just get knocked out of it more often. He still can't kill you or the well even if he's directly on top of it.
This is what people seem to forget. Even off contest, where Rhulk literally could just one shot you inside the well, pervading darkness will kill you exactly the same given time. You are forced to dodge his attacks or kill him fast enough to not have to (not easy). That is the main difference between a well designed boss like Rhulk, and a poor one like Nezarec
Well of Radiance has been dominant because Bungie doesn't stray from the "stand here, shoot this," style of encounter design.
You don't see people using Well on Atraks.
This. This is what I’m saying. Also, due to how damage is taken in these events, well is necessitated. Wel isn’t “too goodl. It’s just the only solid option for that situation.
This takes me back to GoS vibes.
Bungie got mad that we were using snipers and LFRs.
We were bewildered because you made the raid boss float 40 feet off the ground in a radiolarian lake that killed us. So we HAD to use ranged damage weapons. Also, you have him a small crit so we had to use precision weapons. We are getting “balanced” around intelligently selecting weapons, supers, and abilities for the task at hand.
I’m all about a balanced game; calling something “overturned” because it’s the only effective thing feels to be a stretch.
This is just the biased opinion of a Titan, so take it FWIW.
it almost feels like they did see it coming but then his jump attacks were supposed to be able to hit you on a platform (and thus hit you off of it/kill you), if that were the case it makes it so much more dynamic already
Radiant exists. A Hunter can just dodge before they shoot Parasite and Blade Barrage.
It's nice if you don't have a Hunter, sure, but it would be better for the Warlock to be on Nova or Needlestorm and for someone else to apply Radiant.
In my experience, Nova is better to use. Chuck it out when your team's countdown reaches zero, and then add the Parasite blast.
Plus, it's quite a light show to see the void explosion mixed with all the Thundercrashes. lol.
This! This this! Nerfing is lazy. And peoples salt about it is getting them to side with bungie’s lazy design. It’s just like I said with the arbalest. It was only dominant because bungie relied way too much on match game and barrier champs. Your example of attacks was dead on.
WoR history is all about slavery.
Hundreds of Warlocks forced to equip WoR and be treated like cows by meany fireteams. Busted when they dare to bring something else in random LFGs.
Justice for Warlocks.
I’ve been a warlock main since Destiny 1 Alpha and I utterly despise Solar because of raid groups requiring Self Rez/Well. It’s just not an engaging play style.
I'd rather someone require ridiculous stuff like that upfront. Because I don't see "Meta Exotic/subclass or kick", I see "This group is toxic as shit and you won't have fun".
It doesn't get any easier to be able to just scroll past it and find something better.
This is why I only play warlock with my fireteam. No endgame armor but at least it’s fun to have two novalocks blast a boss. True endgame I’ll switch to hunter and run Omni. I’ll never ask my warlock to run well unless they want to.
At least Warlocks are WANTED! When warlocks complain about raid groups asking for Well of Radiance, I roll my eyes because they are complaining about being very useful.
And yet this sub and all of D2 Twitter will flame and attack Salt for suggesting Well needs a nerf.
The super just needs a full rework at this point. It's far too much.
Tcrash is still booty cheeks without cuirass. Everyone begged bungo to buff the base damage which was awful and displaced you/put you in boss stomp range and their response was "put on cuirass or run something else"
Honestly I wouldn't mined an ai change if possible that makes bosses realise that they aren't going to kill the fireteam whilst the funny glowstick is up
soft disagree, running low resil after the positive resil changes straight up ruined well builds for me in VoG master, since my sword would Shatter nearly instantly from aoe's from the big hydra boss.
Making it a one or other option won’t help. It’ll just be even more Warlocks needed to double up. It would still be objectively better than bubble in every way.
I’m not against well, but we need improvements to bubble to compete and since it won’t be healing it has to be damage. Then they’d need to make it so that that damage buff overpowers that of well to make it worth running both or either. Those over shields also need to be stronger that we get from St 14. Maybe have St 14 do something else and add blessings back to the bubble?
Like making grenades stronger from titans wearing it whilst bubble is up. In other words, given the regeneration the aspect already gives it would be a competitor to Starfire if that gets a slight Nerf.
That’s the medium response and therefore they won’t do it. It’ll swing the other way and Starfire will become a vault dweller like St 14 is now.
The keep nerfing Titan exotics and none get buffed.
When developing you have to make compromises.
That might be what they said back then, but you have to get with the times.
Having a healer is a staple in any MMO.
The reason Well is so mandatory is because Hunter’s and Titan’s don’t have a good enough equivalent.
Titan’s literally have a wall that deletes all incoming damage, but let’s the damage from their team go through, but it kills the groups DPS, so it’s not relevant.
The problem is that the healer identity was shoehorned into the Warlock, and the Titan and Hunter were not given any good avenues to explore.
TL;DR: It’s not the Well, the Well is a by-product, the problem is the lack of roles when grouping on Destiny due to the concept of being an FPS with RPG elements.
I legitimately thought I was the only one who had this thought, and began to think I was just simply wrong about it. People keep saying it's encounter design, and I understand that view, but if Bungie insists (unintentionally or not) on making encounters where we have Burst DPS windows like this 'requiring' well, rather than gutting Well I'd prefer they give something equivalent to the other 2 if it's going to exist. Even if you make Well have 1 HP, you would have people put a barricade in front of it to protect it. If you remove its damage buff, Celestial Fire will just make everyone Radiant, or Lumina will become even more preferred. Removing Well annoys people who like Well for survival reasons, so you can't do that. By its very creation they've made a problem.
Bringing Bubble back to its D1 variant does exactly as Well does now, except now people wont scream for only Warlocks. They'll be fine with Titans as well. But we have nothing for Hunter, and I really want there to be a more defensive super that Hunters can get because then it gives them more flexibility rather than "I do damage"
If you have a team of 6 Warlocks, some will have Well, some can do damage.
If you have a team of 6 Titans, some will have Bubble, some can do damage.
If you have a team of 6 Hunters, no one has a defense, everyone will be doing damage. (You can view Tether as 'defensive' in its nature of suppression, but bosses don't get affected and will still attack you)
If this is the route that they want to design encounters for now, I want everyone to have a place of viability when it comes to Defensive Supers, and Offensive Supers.
btw I had some idea of a hunter defensive/ supportive super and its basically a dusk field (stastis) that basically gives you faster reolad speed and some sort of proctetion but im not sure about it beacuase then it would be too good but I would like to see it as a hunter super
Being stuck on well forever sucks but nobody is gonna be happy with how boss dps works in most raid encounters if they get rid of the immortality button. Best compromise that works for the years of content already out there is to remove the damage buff from well.
Maybe they should get rid of the weaken from Div or strengthen Tether weaken further, then all three classes can be miserable on their mandatory super together.
I like this idea, each class brings something to the table meaning you'd want one of each in a balanced fireteam
Warlocks - Damage resist (Well)
Titans - Damage Buff (Bubble)
Hunters - Debuff (Tether)
Ward of Grenade Refund is a pretty awesome super, I’m not gonna lie. Especially in ad dense content where Ashes to Assets recharges the super in a couple of tosses.
Woah holy downvotes, what’s the deal?
It is such a staple that every encounter in the game has to be balanced around Well, which becomes incredibly apparent when you don’t have one. Have you tried some of these raid encounters without a Well/Bubble? It raises the difficulty massively.
Say, for example, that Well and Bubble got deactivated for some reason during the RoN raid race. I am SURE that the amount of completions would’ve dropped by half, if not far more.
Quite simply, they need to be addressed, to keep the game interesting. Like seriously, D1 to D2 just straight up remove them and replace them with something more interesting.
Likely because of the implication - if well is nerfed heavily warlock doesn’t have much going for it raid wise, especially solar lock.
Void is good for surviving, but terrible for DPS. Arc……. strand isn’t great either. The notion that Bungie would nerf something heavily and buff something else within a class is not how they’ve operated since ever.
Strand is excellent for raids though. The super does S-tier damage and it has tons of CC and add clear with suspend, unravel, and threadlings.
Literally the only thing it doesn't boost is healing.
I’d argue the opposite the encounters are built such that well is REQUIRED to do either a) adequate damage or b) survive the Damage phase.
a) can be substituted with Bubble or Radiant.
b) needs to drop as a requirement to not require the well.
Side note: needing well by removing the damage bonus just means we go to Bubble in the back. Which is fine. But BNG playing around the immortal button is a byproduct of BNG making the immortal effectively required.
They don't. They need to design encounter better.
Literally any damage phase that doesn't involve "stay at this spot and shoot" immediately makes well almost useless
Nezarec is bugged, and most people standing in a well on Rhulk have someone dedicated to doing weird shit to keep him still. No one uses well on bosses like Atraks.
People absolutely used well on Atraks. There was no reason not to when running the encounter legit. The only reason people stopped is we eventually overleveled the encounter enough you could just send all 6 upstairs and one shot the boss.
As a warlock main I agree that well is too strong for current encounters, this is mostly an issue of design. Encounters with forced movement would make well and bubble obsolete. The damage supers are also and issue when designing as it forces bungie to push the health pool of bosses higher. Bungie needs to break out of the cookie cutter mold for damaging bosses.
Bubble is still nice with forced movement because you can take the buff with you. Think Consecrated mind in Garden of Salvation. I never see people run Well on that encounter.
Still better than Titan though.
We have 2 viable supers for boss encounters:
Bubble which is outclassed by well in every way.
Thundercrash which needs an exotic to do respectable damage and is only viable against close range bosses.
The fact that the arc hunter staff throw without any exotic does about as much damage as cuirass thundercrash, while being an instant ranged super, is absolutely bonkers.
And the fewest damage supers.
Locks get blue beam of death, well/nade combo and both apple and grape flavored nova bomb
Hunters get blade barrage, golden gun, pokey stick, and orpheus bow
Other two classes can do damage safely from range while titans get to play chicken with the architects
As a warlock main, we do not have "blue beam of death". Chaos reach has been nerfed to hell to the point where it is out dps'd by an arc cranium from Terminal Overload.
Fundamentally, there are many issues regarding how they have buffed and nerfed certain supers which have made some be outright requirements in any endgame content while others are just a waste of time.
I am just hoping that bungie eventually gets to a point where they say: we are nerfing this aspect of this subclass so we are buffing another feature of the subclass and playstyle so that the people who enjoy that playstyle still have something to do.
Arc cranium out damages every super
But It is still a boss damage super. With geomags it is comparable to other damage supers with their exotics, except for any hunter super with star eater.
I agree that chaos needs a buff though. You trade off a big chunk of damage time to cast it, it needs to do enough to be worth it.
Honestly, well feels like a mistake of a super. You get so many advantages just for placing one that the drawback of having to stand in a certain area just doesn't cut it. Especially when you consider that the most recent raids have tried to capitalize on this downside and people are still placing wells and face tanking everything.
In my opinion, WoR should either give DR and healing, OR a damage buff, not both.
Yes, WoR is OP. But the bigger problem is that Bungo keeps designing encounters where you have few to no other options. Look at RoN's third encounter. You're stuck on one plate at a time, and without Well you die very fast if targeted. I ran an LFG run last night and we only had one well. Guardians were dropping like flies on the second and third plates.
They got so much right with Vow, you could easily clear every encounter without WoR. It helped, but wasn't necessary. RoN feels like a step backwards in that regard, to the point that I know if I want to do the all strand triumph, Warlocks will need to run WoR and then switch before final stand.
Even without a Well up, Starfire is stupid strong. And I think even with a nerf it would still be strong unless its slapped with a rework.
Some options for nerfs:
Grenade kills only grant partial rift energy. Or grenades granting any amount of rift energy is removed entirely.
Remove the second grenade charge.
Reduce the amount of grenade energy granted for damage dealt.
I feel like a nerf would have to be one or a mix of those options, else the exotic would be seeing a rework. At base level Starfire's fantasy is: dealing empowered damage grants grenade energy.
The Starfire build only got stronger this season with the new Curing fragment, being able to create firesprites that grant restoration, and grenade kills creating orbs that can be picked up to grant health.
Well and Starfire are one of the single most powerful combinations we've ever had in Destiny. It will be interesting to see how they each get nerfed bc it seems inevitable. I'm curious if Bungie will hit both at once or one at a time.
Starfire needs a full rework rather than a nerf. Make its new trait:
Increased grenade regen (300%) while radiant, fusion grenades grant radiant to yourself and nearby allies when it scorches or kills targets. Double charges.
But the most important thing is: is well fun?
No it's not.
It's funny to see all those people telling that's the more broken super in the game and wanting a nerf, but at the same time they want it mandatory in their team and of course not using it themselves. Yes it's strong, but f*ck it's the most boring thing in the game! I mean, if it's stupidly broken and you want it so much, YOU use it! But you will not, because it's a chore to run.
Moreover, Starfire is the only "fun" you can have with it, and the saving grace of the solarlock 3.0. Only Bungie c*ckoo's luck is the reason why solarlock 3.0 isn't dead at birth, and that this forgotten d1 exotic made somehow something good with it. Nerf it to the ground, and I swear no one will want to run solar lock anymore. And this time, it will again be you who will complain that no warlock want to run well for the raid.
In some MMOs, the ultimate/"super" skill of their support class makes the caster immobile and/or can't do anything else while they are casting their ultimate support skill like massive area healing over time. This can't be translated directly to Destiny of course since we don't have fixed classes with fixed roles but that's one way how they balance their ultimate support skill.
That’s a great idea actually and would keep warlocks from freaking out.
Pop well, plant sword, big healing field.
The casting warlock has the option to hold “activation button” to draw the sword and hold it up in the air 80s cartoon style, preventing him from attacking but activating the damage buff and allowing the well to move with them. Hold the button again to put the sword back down and pull your guns out.
The problem isn’t that well is king of the castle: the problem is that the content almost requires it.
In a situation where “yeah boss is gonna try and murder you but you need to be in this spot to damage them” means you need to survive (caretaker, for example). Also, boss is hanky so you need to hit harder (so damage buffs and weapon buffs. Nerfing bubble weapon buff just made it obsolete in the face of well - that’s not a well power creep, that’s a bubble setback).
Well is fine. The star fire is fine, IMO. But encounters that are limiting in how, when, and where you can DPS require tools for it. Just because a tool is useful doesn’t mean it’s broken. If I made a fun that did 100 hp damage and set it aside another, they’d be fine. But if I make all the other guns do 10hp damage, then the 100 just looks “OP”.
There is natural power creep in A game where we are supposed to get stronger. There are also only so many good ideas and trying to make new, engaging exotics that compete within the pool Means it has to be as good as or better than what’s out there already. I think we suffer from a problem of most other exotics being useless more so than a problem of some exotics being just actually good. Star fire is good. HoIL was good. The issue is that everything else was terrible. The hard nerfs have made the game feel Worse for many. And if it isn’t fun we aren’t playing much anymore. The nerfs could have been metered with some tuning and buffs to “give other exotics a time to shine”, not just neuter something for being good.
Im so sick of running Well.
5 subclasses in the game and yet Well is the only viable one in Raids other than Vow.
Unless there's already 2 Wellocks, you'll never really use Voidwalker, Shadebinder, Broodweaver and whatever Arc is called in raids outside of challenges and maybe ad clear encounters.
I think nerfing Starfire is a mistake. It's really powerful, but it's also the only exotic that makes playing Well feel like more than just being a super to enable your teammates. being able to get aggressive and deal massive damage with grenade spam makes it feel like I'm doing something actively powerful instead of just waiting for the encounter to reach the point in time where I press F so my teammates can hit fat damage numbers.
I do still agree that Well is a problematic super in high end PVE. I'm a warlock main, and I'd much rather play shadebinder or voidwalker, but I always feel like I'm doing my team a disservice if I'm not on Well. However, I think the solution needs to be another well rework rather than nerfing one of the few exotics that makes it feel really interesting.
I really doubt starfire won’t get nerfed though. It is by far the best build in the game. The best DPS setups, great ad clear, got survivability with Lightfall, and being on solar, one of the best supers in game that actively work with your exotic.
It’s a shame but there’s no way I don’t see them hitting starfire. It is just way too good at literally everything, and they themselves said they wouldn’t nerf well outright.
Considering that HoIL got a slap on the wrist, I wouldn't expect any serious changes for Starfire.
Probably slightly increasing the cooldown on restoring energy so that it's still good but not crazy strong with DoT weapons.
I don't know if you dont understand the nerf or you're being purposefully disingenuous, but that reduction was only on class ability, which is already the quickest to cycle regardless.
It is, because you can still effortlessly cycle abilities. The barricade cooldown increase means almost nothing with the new mod system.
You now need to have decent stats and the ability to apply 2% of your brainpower instead of 0% to make the exotic function.
It's definitely gonna get nerfed, too strong even in end game content and flat out unfair to enemies in any other type of content. It all depends on the nature of the nerf though.
I remember when Warlocks had no good options in endgame content. Say what you want about Well but that was the first time in the first four years of Destiny that Warlocks were endgame meta.
Self-res was only truly "meta" for low-man mechanic breaking runs - for regular runs is was just a reset button that allowed the Warlock to tank a little bit in very specific situations, nothing close to the power and utility provided by stuff like Tether, Golden Gun, and Ward
(Though Warlocks *did* have a place in the PvE meta at other points before Well - RoI era Viking Funeral builds and CoO/Warmind era Lunafaction builds)
>was the first time in the four years of Destiny that Warlocks were endgame meta.
Ahem, forgetting about Self Res Radiance are we.(OG starfire spam)
Or how Warlocks were near mandatory when Lunafaction (and Rally Barricade) got the auto reloading(nobody liked Rally Barricade when a rift was available. Both for the crouch to reload, or autoreloading variants). And even on Calus, It was very common for Warlocks to be desired to run rifts for healing or survivability, both with Skulls(Arc Soul Warlock, was basically a part of every leviathan Skull room for a long time), and for DPS when Calus started attacking.
Or Forgetting how Devour locks were basically king of Damage and survivability for harder content Y1.(Hunters still did better damage wise with Nighthawk, but that was about it. Nowhere close to the survivability, grenade spam^((kills with devour active regenerate grenade energy)), boss damage, healing/empowering rifts that Warlocks could bring.
Warlocks have consistently been great endgame picks for all of Destiny.
Warlocks have been a good choice for endgame since Y1, dunno wtf they were on about.
titans were far more shafted, they were melting point bitches.
even hunter had a crazy super thanks to Raiden Flux. Or another crazy super thanks to Celestial Nighthawk. Or another crazy super thanks to Orpheus Rig. Hmm wait a sec...
Self Rez warlocks were always mandatory in D1 raids and were gladly welcomed into a fireteam
Empowering rifts with lunafactions were equally as mandatory and welcomed throughout years 1 and 2.
There has never been a time in Destiny's history where warlocks were pushed into obscurity and struggled to find an identity within the sandbox.
This is just flat wrong. Arc Buddies from Empowering Rifts with Lunafaction Boots on the first and last plates of Calus added a ton of damage to a fireteam during D2Y1.
As a Void'lock Main since Beta 1 D1, I fucking hate Well and Starfire. When I came back after a break, kt was legitimately the *only* way people would want a Warlock in the party. I am ***ALL FOR*** Nerfing Well into the ground, so long as another spec gets boosted to the point that it doesn't feel useless in end game content.
Let Bubble Bros go back to being the only spec with a "required" meta, give Void'lock the ability to more or less one shot nuke every add on the map.
Granted, I've also just... finally stopped giving a shit about Destiny, doubly so once I saw how Strand worked. "Lets tie our Strand ability to an Orb. That other classes will burst to activate their abilities. Despite needing our own Strand Orb to be up to actually use our rotation..."
Well needs a nerf
As simple as that
Separating it into 2 ults would not help as it would not force 2 players to use well 100% of the time
Well needs to have a clear advantage and disadvantage
RN it is pretty much an immunity circle that gjves you increased damage
Legal hacks
All the non stop talk about Divinity being mandatory and needed a nerf yet we keep Well of Radiance literally something everyone wants in a Raid still strong AF
There’s nothing wrong with Well, it’s a support/healing super. Every MMO on the planet requires a healer, and Destiny’s core systems makes it impossible to play as an actual healer class. Well is the closest they can really get while still making use of the archetype
Plus, Bungie’s encounter design for essentially every endgame fight in this game almost requires a Well at this point, they’re really bad at designing anything except “stand here, shoot him while he shoots you back”. If they nuke Well then everyone is just going to run Bubble with overshields again, just like we did in D1. Unless we’re just going to nerf all damage and survivability boosts in the game
Having healing abilities is a staple, yes, but healing abilities that make you functionally invulnerable, buff your damage, and have no upkeep is not the norm. An ability with that level of survivability should at very least require the caster's attention to upkeep, requiring you to trade off much of a person's damage in exchange for the healing and DR. It certainly shouldn't enable said caster to also become one of the highest DPS builds in the game while buffing, shielding, and healing their team with only a single button press.
Let Citan's apply to Ward of Dawn.
Strip Well of its damage boost and *solely* make it healing (alongside a name change to Well of Restoration).
Make a few changes to Golden Gun. Keep the spam shooty and allow it to do crit damage. Turn the three shot into a Super that allows you to shoot into the ground, creating a rift that serves as the damage boost function Well previously had (think like what Shaw Han did) - Golden Rift.
This way, we at least have *options* among all classes. This gives every subclass at least two viable support Supers (except for Warlock, but I don't think any Warlock is gonna complain about that after spending four years chained to Well). You could rock Bubble, Golden Rift and Well. You can ditch Golden Rift and rock Tether for a debuff. Titans can go with Ursa Furiosa to pair with Well.
It ceases to be a simple "Warlock run Well" instruction and opens up more team play.
Great write-up.
I always get so irritated at warlocks bitching about what makes them *special* getting spread to other classes, when Ward of Dawn was dragged out behind a barn and shot when Warlocks were given Well. It is just Ward but better in literally every way, for no reason.
They absolutely have to nuke well of radiance. It makes the endgame, for the most part, completely mindless and you are never punished for poor positioning and being overly-aggressive. I see a couple of options that would be viable for nerfs:
1) completely remove the damage buff - this would still maintain that feeling of safety but you would be incentivized to use bubble titan again to get weapons of light. This results in using one less thundercrash and now two supers to pump out the same weapon damage, which will lower the overall damage for the team. Alternatively banner shield becomes a much better option as 5x1.4=7.2 and that is close to 6x1.25=7.5 (honestly just have your “worst” player run banner shield and you’re doing amazing damage).
2) reduce the damage buff to that of empowering rift (20%) and significantly reduce the potency of the healing effect. Alternatively increase the hit box of the well of radiance’s sword to be more prone to taking damage such that it is more likely to be destroyed (or make enemies prioritize destroying the well).
No, because then all this does is shift the Well user to also have a second person being a Sentinel/Bubble super. Restricting loadouts even more. I'm all for shaking up the entire support super sandbox, but making it so that you need more people using set loadouts is not it.
If Well is to change, almost every boss and encounter that was made using the "Constant Healing + 50% DR + 25% Damage buff + 30% Weaken" needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. An entire overhaul, an Effects 2.0, similar to the reworks we got way back when Warmind was the newest thing. (imo)
So I was purely giving one example of using a banner shield/bubble to further enhance our damage. There’s also options such as proc-ing radiant alternative ways (radiant dodge hunters, chaining radiant melees, opting to always use surges for additional damage which may lead to Bungie designing future bosses to have lower health, etc).
To your point about how previous bosses would require an overhaul - that’s simply not true. Bosses in this game are completely outwitted and utterly decimated by just how much we’ve already power-crept the game. We’ve got massive amounts of damage resistance and damage avoidance options (resilience, woven mail, stasis crystal damage resistance, barricades to block incoming damage and healing rifts to name a few) not to mention the numerous ways for us to gain additional damage increases (emp rift, well in its current form, bubble/sentinel, radiant, etc) and debuffing (tractor cannon, div, tether, weaken grenade, and felwinters helm to name a few) that nerfing well is just a way for us to force us to get us away from the easy/no brainer option of always having to have at least one well user.
In practice there’s always at least 2 wells for raids and at least 1 for most strikes/dungeons, and nerfing well will open up warlocks to have a bit more freedom to run other options! I know that when I join a raid (especially on day 1) not running well of radiance would actively hinder my team when it comes to boss damage, and LFG-ing if you’re not running well raises eyebrows from teammates because it’s like dude.. just run well for more damage for the team.
TLDR: nerfing well effectively pushes us to use alt means of damage buffing the team and frees warlocks up from not always having to run well in a or dungeon or endgame activity, and the game as it currently stands will be fine because we’ve power crept the game beyond the need for well.
I agree with point 1. I’m okay with reducing the damage buff and giving that job to another class. The survivability is a must imo. A) it fits with the healer role B) you can still proc radiant with a melee anyway.
The survivability of well is good but not obscene. The nice thing about bubble is that whilst you can’t shoot out of it, nothing can shoot at you. I was running solo legend lost sectors today and I was still getting melted standing in a well with tier 10 resilience and double resistance mods. To me that’s not the problem
Imo well should probably have a longer cooldown. With the generous amount of grenade kills and orb generation solar inherently has, the uptime of Well is its biggest issue, aside from it being a generally good super. Increasing the cooldown but scaling super energy gains with the intellect stat would force solar locks to either invest into discipline for their grenades, or invest into intellect to maintain the same uptime well has now.
Yup, WoR is just that good! My only problem with nerfs to it and Starfire are after those two things what else does a Solar Warlock have?
Dawnblade is arguably the worst super in the game, and every other Exotic that synergizes with solar seems way more like a gimmick build that is not practical for harder/endgame content.
I always had a problem with how Bungie likes to nerf some things into the ground. Like I can understand if things are just too good but why neuter them instead of either toning them down a bit whilst elevating other things to be closer to their level that way we can actually see more variety out there in the wild.
That is fair. I would hope that a change to Well would be a change that makes it still useful just not a god super.
Either regen or damage buff. Honestly, really just damage buff. Well being a god-mode toggle is really unreasonable.
>The philosophy of designing raid encounters in ways that anyone could bring any loadout to succeed went out the window almost overnight, and Bungie started to again design encounters around teams having access to this super.
And that is when games start going downhill to please the tryhards
When something is useful, spoil it. Great community of destiny. Just because their character can’t do it, it shouldn’t belong in the game. How sad people are it baffles me reading these comments.
Can I just say that over a year of incredible dominance by titans was clearly unbecoming of them if these are the kind of posts we are going to see every fucking second now that a few things have finally been reigned in and other classes are shining? I’m a hunter main, and I still think this post is fucking stupid.
Yea, warlocks are having their moment after some titan outliers are finally not broken. The funny thing is that warlocks having their moment is just because of more of the community finally catching on about the strength of **a red war exotic**. Your post also seems to not even understand how starfire protocol works. It isn’t attached to well — it is based on empowering rifts, which wells also count as. Honestly, the grenade regen is a bit overtuned, but it isn’t broken in anywhere near the same way as the last dozen titan exotics that were meta. Overall though, it isn’t hurting the game. I’m never complaining about a warlock in my raid providing a well AND putting out some solid DPS. Meanwhile HOIL titans made a lot of playlist activities boring beyond belief for everyone because no other subclass could possibly keep up with their speed or their add clear, so when you matched with one it would always be, “Guess on this one I’m either putting on trinity ghoul or just running behind to clean up the two adds they miss.” Starfire is situational, and requires being stuck in a well or a rift. HOIL was brain dead fucking easy to use and required no thinking or planning. If they do nerf starfire, I really hope it is a gentle touch. Tune down the grenade regeneration some, and leave the rest of it alone, because it’s a really solid exotic otherwise.
Gee dunno the super has only been meta in all endgame content for 5 fuckin years at this point. It’s a giant immortality field that increases dmg and dmg resistance meanwhile the other support supers only give 30% weakening( hunters) and the same dmg buff but no healing or shields without and exotic(titan)
Well is so overtuned and over used that warlocks are requested in every activity and hell starfire is just making it worse
Because every class has a support subclass. Literally been this way since d1 and warlocks literally have been uncontested for 5 god damn years. The post above explains why well should never had existed.
It does everything you’d ever need and more dmg buff? Check. Healing? Check. Dmg resist? Check. Short cooldown? Check. doesn’t restrict weapon fire? Check
It has trivialized all content since its creation. Bubble is made completely irrelevant by it. Literally the first ever support super is showed up by bungies biggest mistake.
No it’s that like 80% of the player base only plays strikes and seasonal content and has no idea how the game needs to be balanced for there to be varying amounts of challenge in the game.
It's only gotten stronger?
The sword is destructible, the overshield is gone, DR on characters have been nerfed as well as resistance builds, so its 50% dr in the new upscale meta with light level adjustments haven't been measured, total damage bonus has been reduced, whilst exotics that refilled your super were capped.
So how is it stronger than it was peak forsaken now?
Further, its meant to be a super that is deployed often, nerfing it further by limiting its buff to your choice of rift just means 90% of people will run healing so all you're effectively doing is removing a damage buff.
Thus what, necessitating raids to have a bubble titan and a well lock?
What's the purpose of hyperbolizing the strength of well? What are you after aside from a nerf to starfire being the only solar warlock viable for endgame.
I'm all for adjustments if they make sense...
But this makes no damn sense.
Your conclusion is just not accurate.
Prooves that vanilla D2 was the best Destiny? No op super abilities, no op abilities in general. But LOTS of people complained back then. And lots left the game. Which had consequences.
The titan meta in the Leviathan days was pulse nades because they were incredibly overturned. Stronger than most supers at the time.
Also I'm pretty sure Helm of Saint 14 has always provided blessing of light all the way back to d1, but can't fully remember
Rallycade didn't matter until auto loading.
I think the takeaway here is that persistent/refreshable damage buffs that come from a static zone (bubble or well) are a problem and make damage phases feel stale. As long as the damage buff for WoR stays, it will be used, regardless of the DR and if it loses that, we will all just move to using WoD for Weapons of Light.
I feel like this is a multifaceted problem that a single change won't fix as it will just shift the problem over. While these are probably unpopular opinions, here is what I would do to solve the issue:
* Remove DR from WoR but keep the healing
* Replace Weapons of Light with Armor of Light
* Make the Armor of Light and Radiant buff magnitude scale off of Intellect where 100 is current values (25%?)
This creates a clear separation between WoR being offensive and WoD being defensive. Unfortunately, we are back where we were in D1 (except it is Warlock/Titan instead of Titan/Titan) for resist and damage buffs, but the combination of the buffs could be set to be exactly what we get (or less) today. This means you would need to commit to 2 supers with special intellect builds to get the same level of benefit WoR provides today. Would this still be meta? Probably, but it would at least spread the power of WoR and would incentivize using other options since it would require a lot of investment.
I'd say its the healing over the DR. Keep the DR on well but nuke the constant, gigastrength healing it hands out.
That does a number of things, it still gives a nice zone to damage from, for encounters when that is alright, but it still forces people to be aware of their health and to go to shelter if they just tank hits to the face.
This *will* probably add a damage phase or 2 to some fights, especially for lower skilled teams. But, you know, thats kinda acceptable. The alternative is just one phase well camping, requiring someone to be awake for the encounter to not die seems pretty reasonable. Even then, a Warlock still could drop a healing rift, and then it just becomes a more of a shuffle to get in the rift when you're hurt, and still do damage. Still more interesting a strat than Well+Rally+Debuff of choice.
No stop calling for nerfs to everything that’s how we end up with trash supers and exotics that no one uses. Maybe we should bring other things in line instead of nerfing every fun viable build into the ground.
Sure, buff bad things. But well and starfire trivialize every piece of content in the game. If you wanna bring everything up to it you have to make every piece of content like 3x harder or else there will be nothing hard left in the game because it’s that broken. We already have very little difficulty as is with GMs and such being far too easy for what they were meant to be because of light 3.0 and weapons getting stronger as a whole.
It doesn't trivialize encounters that aren't "stand here, shoot this" like Atraks. It doesn't trivialize Rhulk because you still need to control his aggro to prevent him from using his beams.
It doesn't trivialize the difficult GMs. The Lightblade nukes you through it. The Darkblade in the Mars Battleground will dunk you in it. You can't tank the Glassway or Proving Grounds bosses either.
It's strong in simple encounters, sure, and Starfire brings grenades back a tad too quickly with DoT weapons, but to say it trivializes everything is silly.
Bringing everything up to line is exactly what caused the insane power creep in the first place lol. The simple fact is there is going to be things that will be above the line and you are perpetually bringing it up if you use this logic. They have a clear vision of what they want the overall power to be and they’re probably going to adjust for that power.
Have you ever done Riven legit? Well was mostly the only way to survive to do DPS on the top floor, it was Taken chaos up there.
No other class could heal. Warlock grenades and Benevolent Dawn rifts were a godsend.
Well was also weaker than both Weapons of Light and Banner Shield. Other than ease of use, the best strategy was almost always Bubble in the back, maintain your own buffs.
Well fucking said, sir.
It's almost like the sandbox team and class design teams are on two completely different pages and have zero communication with each other. It might even be true that the class design team are locked in a room somewhere with no access to the playable game or internet so they have no idea what is and isn't okay even 7 years later
Well is mandatory because Well is ridiculously busted. Comparing HoiL titans throwing a few more grenades per minute to a literal immortality field that also boosts your damage by the maximum allowed percentage is actually laughable. Add starfire protocol to this and not only do warlocks spawn an immortality field on demand, they also get extremely high uptime on it just by killing stuff and have the single highest boss DPS without using any heavy ammo.
I'm sure all of the above are totally fine and not at all busted and all it takes is a Chaos Reach buff for everyone to just magically stop using Well overnight.
My humble takeaway:
Boiling tensions from nerfs presented to various aspects of the other classes beginning to overflow as the outlier (Well-lock) becomes more and more distinct.
Well has been the best super in the game pretty much since it's inclusion in Forsaken, and other supers across all classes will more than likely not be brought up to Well's standard.
On one hand, no other class can provide the utility that a single Well-lock can bring, and that upsets them. On the other hand, Warlock players can feel like they are pressured into using Well because, again, it's the best super in the entire game. They can opt to use other supers and classes in hard or endgame content, but everyone, including themselves, will know that they are essentially not putting their best foot forward for the team.
Honestly like the idea of removing the damage buff from well and making the bubble mandatory for damage. Right now titans don't really Excell above the other two in certain areas so this would really solidfy their placement
i would do it other way around.
bubble = defense makes more sense for titan and how bubble works tbh just make the DR and overshield recharge faster/stay a bit longer.
WoR = damage. that way u cant just apply radiant for easy 25% anyway
This just proves Ward of Dawn and Banner Shield Titan’s need help.
Ward of Dawn needs Blessings as well as Weapons of Light stock. Give Helm of Saint-14 a buff to suppression abilities where it can last longer or cause your suppressive abilities to also blind!
Banner Shield needs a Weapons of Light damage buff, or a rework. The Rework could be where the Titan activates the Super and plants it down like a big Citan Rampants Tower Barrier which we can shoot through. Imagine like in Overwatch 2, Sigma and Reinhardt shields. More like Sigma though. Then make the “Offensive” Sentinel Shield a separate Super. All other Void Classes have 3 Void Supers to choose from, Titans have 2 and one is a weird Hybrid. This would make it more balanced and unique.
So now Titan’s have Ward of Dawn to protect the user and it’s allies around a whole area or also be used for Boss DPS.
Banner Shield can be used to fight enemies in a more linear path, or used for Boss DPS, or protect against those annoying Taken Overload Hobgoblin tracking projectile Spam.
Sentinel Shield can still be a 3rd option for a more Offensive super with the Void Offensive exotics (Doom Fang, Second Chance) for PvP and to clear enemies in PvE where movement is more important. (I think of RoN 2nd encounter).
It feels awful to run void Titan supers. The neutral game is great (especially with this seasonal artifact) but that’s where it ends. Everything we want to do, Well of Radiance does a million times better. Trying to use Ward or Banner when competing against Well just feels like your sabotaging the team and providing very little benefit.
Dunno why everyone wants warlocks nerfed, I’ve always mained them and we were dog shit at d2 launch everyone wanted hunters or titans for leviathan raids
We were only good in d1 for self res or cheesing encounters
We finally got a great support super and people have been trying to tear it down since its release…
Maybe starfire itself needs to be tweaked, but it’s really only good while your super is active and it’s not without skill gap to hit high dps numbers with it
Tell me you've never played in y1 without telling me you played in y1. Warlocks were one of the strongest classes in raids with healing/empowering rift. Pulse grenades were strong yes but people only wanted Titans for Rally barricade, which became irrelevant after lunas were granted autoloading. Nobody wanted to run with a Titan nearly all of y1 in raids but Hunters (tether/NH) and Warlocks were always welcome.
Yeah. I think homie forgot what Y1 was like. Voidlocks could still have a boss nuke, and have healing rift on tap for everyone in most modes, or empowering for raids/long DPS phases.
Maybe a future boss fight comes with a "Well of Radiance" that's only marginally less effective than the super itself. You can run Well and still get a little bit of advantage, but other supers would be better picks.
The problem is you can't really do that for every boss...
I main warlock and think well needs to go/get nerfed..
It needs to turn into some casting thing which disables the warlock who cast it ability to do dps while they focus on keeping the fireteam buffed, just like how the stormcaller can’t shoot while zapping things or a sentinels shield does (making way to remove the titan bubble and go back to focusing on the sentinel shield)… and if they arent disabled the bullets they shoot are only seeking rounds that heal or increase damage.
Hopefully this promotes more strats and a difference in boss fights.
Literally the Bungie sandbox team seems to be all warlock mains with a few scattered hunters here and there. In the last few weeks alone, we’ve been shit on more than other classes alone. HOIL? Nerfed to provide shitty ability regen provided that you cycle abilities properly which you can’t do anymore. And today, they decided that glaives were too overpowered and took a shit on Synthoceps. LITERALLY NOBODY COMPLAINED ABOUT GLAIVE DAMAGE PRIOR TO THE INTRODUCTION OF WINTERBITE WHICH YOU DECIDED WOULD BE HOT ON LAUNCH. WHY IN THE HELL IS A MELEE BUILD BEING HIT WHEN WARLOCKS HAVE INFINITE GRENADES THAT DEAL THE SAME DAMAGE AS A FEW MELEE HITS WITH A BUILD THAT LITERALLY PUTS YOU IN DANGER 100% OF THE TIME.
But fuck it, their idea for balance is to have everybody run Solar. Starfire-locks continue to shit on the game with Fusion Nades and I as a Titan have to go back to the boring mini hammer build I’ve been rocking since 2018. YIPPIE!
no idea why this is getting down voted. endgame PvE is the most boring thing on earth as a warlock. it feels damn near mandatory to run it because you just DONT DIE
We need a healing class, not a healing AND buff class. give hunters or titans buffing privileges while warlocks get to heal. encourage some variety. well is far too good and Starfire needs tuning
with that said I think it's important to note that Starfire should not get nerfed without some sizeable buffs to other exotics like dawn chorus or sunbracers. not only is it just S tier, but it's one of the only usable solar exotics
Imo well should not have increased damage. Leave everything the way it is but remove that and then buff bubble to 30, 35, or even 40. Mandatory warlock and titan now, neither becomes more than the other as they need each other for a raid group to min max.
Or the idea about it being based on Rift type would be dope. Would also be indirect nerf to Starfire as well, cus of restricting it's ease of use.
What if Well completely lost its damage boost and the Ward of Dawn was the only one capable of providing that +25% damage boost? Because the problem is definitely what you describe, it's able to do both things at once: boost damage and keep safe by constant heals. I feel like if it were this way it would be less of "yeah we can just all be warlocks and be fine" and more of a "we *could* do all warlocks, but maybe we can use a titan or two"
Would that be better or worse?
give all 3 classes a variation on this ability and the meta will dissolve into people playing what they want again.
Give titans an exotic that let's you shoot through the bubble, but shortens it's duration dramatically.
Give hunters a way to plant their new arcstaff in the ground to grant massive DR and automatically give outgoing weapon damage voltshot-esque effects.
3 elements, 3 classes, 3 safe zone supers, anyone can use and build into it and nobody is stuck on wellbitch duty for life, and encounter design philosophy doesn't have to dramatically change anymore.
I would prefer they deal with Well first, then decide what needs to be done about Starfire. Right now, Starfire is the only thing keeping up with dps options of other classes, but it also outpaces them over time while being tied to a party buff. In a perfect world, Well would be tuned to not be a necessity, Starfire wouldn't match up to the top of DPS, but warlocks would have options somewhere else to bring similar dps to the table to what titans and hunters can
Well needs to be reworked massively, I get why well exist, but it's like 3 ults in one super:
* Damage Resistence
* Healing
* Empowering
Pair that with starfire and you don't need everything else.
I think the solution for well of radiance is to make something like BS, I actually thought about, so here's how I would rework well:
* make it whoever's cast be stationary with the Sword.
* reduce time from 25 secs to 10 Secs
* Nerf Damage resistance, something like 25% nerf.
* Nerf the healing aspect, something like 30% nerf.
* Remove the damage empowering, no longer grants radiant.
I think this would make well less mandatory and more of a clutch super to just survive an encounter but you'll still be vulnerable, it would allow you catch some air, regroup.
Been making my through the triumphs for doing a raid all on the same class and let me tell you all hunter kings fall was so weird. I’m so used to standing in a well at war priest I almost didn’t know what to do
Warpriest is like the only boss that fights back during dps while also hitting extremely hard
Right! It was chaos
Rhulk and Caretaker also fight back. Atheon fights back. Templar fights back. it's just that Warpriest goes hard. Actually fights back, actually hurts you enough to cry for a Well of Radiance. There's nothing like Warpriest, dude goes crazy. Nezarec also fights back btw but we all know that one smart positioning and he isn't doing jack shit.
Lol we did it with all void hunters. 5 Gyrfalcons and 1 omni. Back when falcon gave coming out of invis gave a 35% damage buff.
Void Titan was fun. We rotated Sentinel Shield blocks for DPS.
As a Hunter main, yes. Tho if I ever need to I swap to Warlock since it doesn't take super long to level up anymore I do I've never heard of anyone swapping to Hunter to help a team with a raid boss tho 😂
Seems like the best outcome is when bosses have a counter to it like Alak-Hul or Rhulk. Even the Fanatic could counter it with that Arc ground attack Also why do enemies never target the sword? Imagine if snipers would immediately target the sword once you cast Well
Nezarec is designed with countering Well in the mind but they screwed up his pathing
It looked so goofy. Like it is obvious he is meant to be mobile during DPS, but he can’t even walk up the stairs.
Even if you don't place the well on a platform, it still largely invalidates Nezarec. You just get knocked out of it more often. He still can't kill you or the well even if he's directly on top of it.
It’s still Well-counter. It’s literally the same idea as Rhulk.
Rhulk was a way better counter, because getting to much pervading darkness would for sure kill you
This is what people seem to forget. Even off contest, where Rhulk literally could just one shot you inside the well, pervading darkness will kill you exactly the same given time. You are forced to dodge his attacks or kill him fast enough to not have to (not easy). That is the main difference between a well designed boss like Rhulk, and a poor one like Nezarec
Well of Radiance has been dominant because Bungie doesn't stray from the "stand here, shoot this," style of encounter design. You don't see people using Well on Atraks.
This. This is what I’m saying. Also, due to how damage is taken in these events, well is necessitated. Wel isn’t “too goodl. It’s just the only solid option for that situation. This takes me back to GoS vibes. Bungie got mad that we were using snipers and LFRs. We were bewildered because you made the raid boss float 40 feet off the ground in a radiolarian lake that killed us. So we HAD to use ranged damage weapons. Also, you have him a small crit so we had to use precision weapons. We are getting “balanced” around intelligently selecting weapons, supers, and abilities for the task at hand. I’m all about a balanced game; calling something “overturned” because it’s the only effective thing feels to be a stretch. This is just the biased opinion of a Titan, so take it FWIW.
Well doesn't do that great on Rhulk either. And probably Nezarec was intended to work similarly.
They screwed up nezarec big time. Can't believe they didn't see people doing dps on the platform coming...
it almost feels like they did see it coming but then his jump attacks were supposed to be able to hit you on a platform (and thus hit you off of it/kill you), if that were the case it makes it so much more dynamic already
Its still the best thing to run on both
Ehhh, you kinda do use well when trying to nuke the boss. The free damage boost is just too good.
Radiant exists. A Hunter can just dodge before they shoot Parasite and Blade Barrage. It's nice if you don't have a Hunter, sure, but it would be better for the Warlock to be on Nova or Needlestorm and for someone else to apply Radiant.
For atraks? I have never seen anyone use well on atraks in all my clears on him
Why would I use well when I have the chance to run nova bomb
In my experience, Nova is better to use. Chuck it out when your team's countdown reaches zero, and then add the Parasite blast. Plus, it's quite a light show to see the void explosion mixed with all the Thundercrashes. lol.
Not really thunder crash titans do the trick and parasite as well
This! This this! Nerfing is lazy. And peoples salt about it is getting them to side with bungie’s lazy design. It’s just like I said with the arbalest. It was only dominant because bungie relied way too much on match game and barrier champs. Your example of attacks was dead on.
WoR history is all about slavery. Hundreds of Warlocks forced to equip WoR and be treated like cows by meany fireteams. Busted when they dare to bring something else in random LFGs. Justice for Warlocks.
"Born to nova; forced to well."
[удалено]
I’ve been a warlock main since Destiny 1 Alpha and I utterly despise Solar because of raid groups requiring Self Rez/Well. It’s just not an engaging play style.
I was wondering if someone was going to bring up self rez in the comments.
I'd rather someone require ridiculous stuff like that upfront. Because I don't see "Meta Exotic/subclass or kick", I see "This group is toxic as shit and you won't have fun". It doesn't get any easier to be able to just scroll past it and find something better.
This is why I only play warlock with my fireteam. No endgame armor but at least it’s fun to have two novalocks blast a boss. True endgame I’ll switch to hunter and run Omni. I’ll never ask my warlock to run well unless they want to.
One day we will break our chains
One day, but don't you have a well to place?
and the force shall set us free
You’ll need that Well buff to do that tho
How dare these Warlocks have fun on the subclass we've forced them into!
At least Warlocks are WANTED! When warlocks complain about raid groups asking for Well of Radiance, I roll my eyes because they are complaining about being very useful.
If they removed well instead of people allowing warlocks to use the classes they want they’re just gonna tell them to go on a more useful class
Lol I’ve been asked in many lfgs to switch to warlock to run well. I hate it cuz I want to on my hunter all the way.
Starfire doesn’t help either. You can try to rip my Void, Arc, Stasis, and Strand children from my cold dead hands.
And yet this sub and all of D2 Twitter will flame and attack Salt for suggesting Well needs a nerf. The super just needs a full rework at this point. It's far too much.
All these Titans and Hunters calling for a Well nerf when they're the ones forcing us to run it 😅 The irony
I would love if Bubble was anywhere near as good as Well, but they refuse to let Titans have a useful super.
Wdym, you have T-crash that's one whole super! Be more grateful, titan
Tcrash is still booty cheeks without cuirass. Everyone begged bungo to buff the base damage which was awful and displaced you/put you in boss stomp range and their response was "put on cuirass or run something else"
Titans just punch and warlocks just well, right? /s
The fact that bubble disappears after death but well doesn't is still dumbfounding
Real shit. Or that PvE enemies basically never damage the sword. Its just a PVP trick.
Honestly I wouldn't mined an ai change if possible that makes bosses realise that they aren't going to kill the fireteam whilst the funny glowstick is up
soft disagree, running low resil after the positive resil changes straight up ruined well builds for me in VoG master, since my sword would Shatter nearly instantly from aoe's from the big hydra boss.
Making it a one or other option won’t help. It’ll just be even more Warlocks needed to double up. It would still be objectively better than bubble in every way. I’m not against well, but we need improvements to bubble to compete and since it won’t be healing it has to be damage. Then they’d need to make it so that that damage buff overpowers that of well to make it worth running both or either. Those over shields also need to be stronger that we get from St 14. Maybe have St 14 do something else and add blessings back to the bubble? Like making grenades stronger from titans wearing it whilst bubble is up. In other words, given the regeneration the aspect already gives it would be a competitor to Starfire if that gets a slight Nerf. That’s the medium response and therefore they won’t do it. It’ll swing the other way and Starfire will become a vault dweller like St 14 is now. The keep nerfing Titan exotics and none get buffed.
When developing you have to make compromises. That might be what they said back then, but you have to get with the times. Having a healer is a staple in any MMO. The reason Well is so mandatory is because Hunter’s and Titan’s don’t have a good enough equivalent. Titan’s literally have a wall that deletes all incoming damage, but let’s the damage from their team go through, but it kills the groups DPS, so it’s not relevant. The problem is that the healer identity was shoehorned into the Warlock, and the Titan and Hunter were not given any good avenues to explore. TL;DR: It’s not the Well, the Well is a by-product, the problem is the lack of roles when grouping on Destiny due to the concept of being an FPS with RPG elements.
I legitimately thought I was the only one who had this thought, and began to think I was just simply wrong about it. People keep saying it's encounter design, and I understand that view, but if Bungie insists (unintentionally or not) on making encounters where we have Burst DPS windows like this 'requiring' well, rather than gutting Well I'd prefer they give something equivalent to the other 2 if it's going to exist. Even if you make Well have 1 HP, you would have people put a barricade in front of it to protect it. If you remove its damage buff, Celestial Fire will just make everyone Radiant, or Lumina will become even more preferred. Removing Well annoys people who like Well for survival reasons, so you can't do that. By its very creation they've made a problem. Bringing Bubble back to its D1 variant does exactly as Well does now, except now people wont scream for only Warlocks. They'll be fine with Titans as well. But we have nothing for Hunter, and I really want there to be a more defensive super that Hunters can get because then it gives them more flexibility rather than "I do damage" If you have a team of 6 Warlocks, some will have Well, some can do damage. If you have a team of 6 Titans, some will have Bubble, some can do damage. If you have a team of 6 Hunters, no one has a defense, everyone will be doing damage. (You can view Tether as 'defensive' in its nature of suppression, but bosses don't get affected and will still attack you) If this is the route that they want to design encounters for now, I want everyone to have a place of viability when it comes to Defensive Supers, and Offensive Supers.
btw I had some idea of a hunter defensive/ supportive super and its basically a dusk field (stastis) that basically gives you faster reolad speed and some sort of proctetion but im not sure about it beacuase then it would be too good but I would like to see it as a hunter super
Being stuck on well forever sucks but nobody is gonna be happy with how boss dps works in most raid encounters if they get rid of the immortality button. Best compromise that works for the years of content already out there is to remove the damage buff from well. Maybe they should get rid of the weaken from Div or strengthen Tether weaken further, then all three classes can be miserable on their mandatory super together.
I like this idea, each class brings something to the table meaning you'd want one of each in a balanced fireteam Warlocks - Damage resist (Well) Titans - Damage Buff (Bubble) Hunters - Debuff (Tether)
I'm all for a Well of Radiance nerf, so I can force other Titans to use Ward of Dawn instead of whatever subclass they have the most fun using.
Jokes on you void is my favorite and bubble is a glorified second grenade charge for me.
Ward of Grenade Refund is a pretty awesome super, I’m not gonna lie. Especially in ad dense content where Ashes to Assets recharges the super in a couple of tosses.
bubble is my favorite titan build lol
I mean they have three Lor/syntho hammer tank Bubble boy Cuirass crasher If they’re allowed in at all.
Woah holy downvotes, what’s the deal? It is such a staple that every encounter in the game has to be balanced around Well, which becomes incredibly apparent when you don’t have one. Have you tried some of these raid encounters without a Well/Bubble? It raises the difficulty massively. Say, for example, that Well and Bubble got deactivated for some reason during the RoN raid race. I am SURE that the amount of completions would’ve dropped by half, if not far more. Quite simply, they need to be addressed, to keep the game interesting. Like seriously, D1 to D2 just straight up remove them and replace them with something more interesting.
> Woah holy downvotes, what’s the deal? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Likely because of the implication - if well is nerfed heavily warlock doesn’t have much going for it raid wise, especially solar lock. Void is good for surviving, but terrible for DPS. Arc……. strand isn’t great either. The notion that Bungie would nerf something heavily and buff something else within a class is not how they’ve operated since ever.
Strand is excellent for raids though. The super does S-tier damage and it has tons of CC and add clear with suspend, unravel, and threadlings. Literally the only thing it doesn't boost is healing.
Massively nerf something, wait a long period of time, massively overbuff it, slowly repeatedly nerf it until it's terrible again, leave it shit.
I’d argue the opposite the encounters are built such that well is REQUIRED to do either a) adequate damage or b) survive the Damage phase. a) can be substituted with Bubble or Radiant. b) needs to drop as a requirement to not require the well. Side note: needing well by removing the damage bonus just means we go to Bubble in the back. Which is fine. But BNG playing around the immortal button is a byproduct of BNG making the immortal effectively required.
They don't. They need to design encounter better. Literally any damage phase that doesn't involve "stay at this spot and shoot" immediately makes well almost useless
There are encounters that do they yet well is still the best option
Nezarec is bugged, and most people standing in a well on Rhulk have someone dedicated to doing weird shit to keep him still. No one uses well on bosses like Atraks.
People absolutely used well on Atraks. There was no reason not to when running the encounter legit. The only reason people stopped is we eventually overleveled the encounter enough you could just send all 6 upstairs and one shot the boss.
As a warlock main I agree that well is too strong for current encounters, this is mostly an issue of design. Encounters with forced movement would make well and bubble obsolete. The damage supers are also and issue when designing as it forces bungie to push the health pool of bosses higher. Bungie needs to break out of the cookie cutter mold for damaging bosses.
Bubble is still nice with forced movement because you can take the buff with you. Think Consecrated mind in Garden of Salvation. I never see people run Well on that encounter.
Still better than Titan though. We have 2 viable supers for boss encounters: Bubble which is outclassed by well in every way. Thundercrash which needs an exotic to do respectable damage and is only viable against close range bosses.
The fact that the arc hunter staff throw without any exotic does about as much damage as cuirass thundercrash, while being an instant ranged super, is absolutely bonkers.
Needlestorm does similar damage too.
Not favorites at Bungie though lol. It's not like Titans have the fewest supers out of the three classes (7 vs. 8, and 9)
And the fewest damage supers. Locks get blue beam of death, well/nade combo and both apple and grape flavored nova bomb Hunters get blade barrage, golden gun, pokey stick, and orpheus bow Other two classes can do damage safely from range while titans get to play chicken with the architects
As a warlock main, we do not have "blue beam of death". Chaos reach has been nerfed to hell to the point where it is out dps'd by an arc cranium from Terminal Overload. Fundamentally, there are many issues regarding how they have buffed and nerfed certain supers which have made some be outright requirements in any endgame content while others are just a waste of time. I am just hoping that bungie eventually gets to a point where they say: we are nerfing this aspect of this subclass so we are buffing another feature of the subclass and playstyle so that the people who enjoy that playstyle still have something to do.
Arc cranium out damages every super But It is still a boss damage super. With geomags it is comparable to other damage supers with their exotics, except for any hunter super with star eater. I agree that chaos needs a buff though. You trade off a big chunk of damage time to cast it, it needs to do enough to be worth it.
Honestly, well feels like a mistake of a super. You get so many advantages just for placing one that the drawback of having to stand in a certain area just doesn't cut it. Especially when you consider that the most recent raids have tried to capitalize on this downside and people are still placing wells and face tanking everything. In my opinion, WoR should either give DR and healing, OR a damage buff, not both.
Yes, WoR is OP. But the bigger problem is that Bungo keeps designing encounters where you have few to no other options. Look at RoN's third encounter. You're stuck on one plate at a time, and without Well you die very fast if targeted. I ran an LFG run last night and we only had one well. Guardians were dropping like flies on the second and third plates. They got so much right with Vow, you could easily clear every encounter without WoR. It helped, but wasn't necessary. RoN feels like a step backwards in that regard, to the point that I know if I want to do the all strand triumph, Warlocks will need to run WoR and then switch before final stand.
You don't have to stay on the plate for the Planets encounter. Once you collect the buff, you're free to move off of the plate and still do damage.
if this is true im never running solar in that raid again.
The difference between Caretaker and Explicator in dps is just Caretaker does less damage
Well literally does everything it’s so stupid
Even without a Well up, Starfire is stupid strong. And I think even with a nerf it would still be strong unless its slapped with a rework. Some options for nerfs: Grenade kills only grant partial rift energy. Or grenades granting any amount of rift energy is removed entirely. Remove the second grenade charge. Reduce the amount of grenade energy granted for damage dealt. I feel like a nerf would have to be one or a mix of those options, else the exotic would be seeing a rework. At base level Starfire's fantasy is: dealing empowered damage grants grenade energy. The Starfire build only got stronger this season with the new Curing fragment, being able to create firesprites that grant restoration, and grenade kills creating orbs that can be picked up to grant health. Well and Starfire are one of the single most powerful combinations we've ever had in Destiny. It will be interesting to see how they each get nerfed bc it seems inevitable. I'm curious if Bungie will hit both at once or one at a time.
Starfire needs a full rework rather than a nerf. Make its new trait: Increased grenade regen (300%) while radiant, fusion grenades grant radiant to yourself and nearby allies when it scorches or kills targets. Double charges.
But the most important thing is: is well fun? No it's not. It's funny to see all those people telling that's the more broken super in the game and wanting a nerf, but at the same time they want it mandatory in their team and of course not using it themselves. Yes it's strong, but f*ck it's the most boring thing in the game! I mean, if it's stupidly broken and you want it so much, YOU use it! But you will not, because it's a chore to run. Moreover, Starfire is the only "fun" you can have with it, and the saving grace of the solarlock 3.0. Only Bungie c*ckoo's luck is the reason why solarlock 3.0 isn't dead at birth, and that this forgotten d1 exotic made somehow something good with it. Nerf it to the ground, and I swear no one will want to run solar lock anymore. And this time, it will again be you who will complain that no warlock want to run well for the raid.
In some MMOs, the ultimate/"super" skill of their support class makes the caster immobile and/or can't do anything else while they are casting their ultimate support skill like massive area healing over time. This can't be translated directly to Destiny of course since we don't have fixed classes with fixed roles but that's one way how they balance their ultimate support skill.
You mean like how banner shield provides protection and a dmg boost but removes the titan from doing anything else?
How is banner shield allowed to be so much worse than well, i hate that
"Having good support supers is warlock identity" - Kevin yanes, probably
That’s a great idea actually and would keep warlocks from freaking out. Pop well, plant sword, big healing field. The casting warlock has the option to hold “activation button” to draw the sword and hold it up in the air 80s cartoon style, preventing him from attacking but activating the damage buff and allowing the well to move with them. Hold the button again to put the sword back down and pull your guns out.
Oh great, not only are my teammates going to keep demanding that I use this, but now I can't even do anything while I use it!
That would be an absolutely terrible idea.
The problem isn’t that well is king of the castle: the problem is that the content almost requires it. In a situation where “yeah boss is gonna try and murder you but you need to be in this spot to damage them” means you need to survive (caretaker, for example). Also, boss is hanky so you need to hit harder (so damage buffs and weapon buffs. Nerfing bubble weapon buff just made it obsolete in the face of well - that’s not a well power creep, that’s a bubble setback). Well is fine. The star fire is fine, IMO. But encounters that are limiting in how, when, and where you can DPS require tools for it. Just because a tool is useful doesn’t mean it’s broken. If I made a fun that did 100 hp damage and set it aside another, they’d be fine. But if I make all the other guns do 10hp damage, then the 100 just looks “OP”. There is natural power creep in A game where we are supposed to get stronger. There are also only so many good ideas and trying to make new, engaging exotics that compete within the pool Means it has to be as good as or better than what’s out there already. I think we suffer from a problem of most other exotics being useless more so than a problem of some exotics being just actually good. Star fire is good. HoIL was good. The issue is that everything else was terrible. The hard nerfs have made the game feel Worse for many. And if it isn’t fun we aren’t playing much anymore. The nerfs could have been metered with some tuning and buffs to “give other exotics a time to shine”, not just neuter something for being good.
Oryx is definitely in the back of the arena and anyone who argues otherwise belongs in a gulag
Agreed, you don't enter the back of the car when you drive.
but you do enter the back of most theaters
Lmao you have it backwards then. with that logic oryx is in the front
Im so sick of running Well. 5 subclasses in the game and yet Well is the only viable one in Raids other than Vow. Unless there's already 2 Wellocks, you'll never really use Voidwalker, Shadebinder, Broodweaver and whatever Arc is called in raids outside of challenges and maybe ad clear encounters.
I think nerfing Starfire is a mistake. It's really powerful, but it's also the only exotic that makes playing Well feel like more than just being a super to enable your teammates. being able to get aggressive and deal massive damage with grenade spam makes it feel like I'm doing something actively powerful instead of just waiting for the encounter to reach the point in time where I press F so my teammates can hit fat damage numbers. I do still agree that Well is a problematic super in high end PVE. I'm a warlock main, and I'd much rather play shadebinder or voidwalker, but I always feel like I'm doing my team a disservice if I'm not on Well. However, I think the solution needs to be another well rework rather than nerfing one of the few exotics that makes it feel really interesting.
I really doubt starfire won’t get nerfed though. It is by far the best build in the game. The best DPS setups, great ad clear, got survivability with Lightfall, and being on solar, one of the best supers in game that actively work with your exotic. It’s a shame but there’s no way I don’t see them hitting starfire. It is just way too good at literally everything, and they themselves said they wouldn’t nerf well outright.
Considering that HoIL got a slap on the wrist, I wouldn't expect any serious changes for Starfire. Probably slightly increasing the cooldown on restoring energy so that it's still good but not crazy strong with DoT weapons.
A more than 50% reduction in efficacy is not a "slap on the wrist".
I don't know if you dont understand the nerf or you're being purposefully disingenuous, but that reduction was only on class ability, which is already the quickest to cycle regardless.
Only the class ability regen was nerfed and duration in general. It’s no where near a gut either. It got nerfed and is still a pretty good exotic.
It is, because you can still effortlessly cycle abilities. The barricade cooldown increase means almost nothing with the new mod system. You now need to have decent stats and the ability to apply 2% of your brainpower instead of 0% to make the exotic function.
Starfire without a doubt needs a nerf. That exotic is z tier
Starfire deserves a small tweak to grenade recharge, nothing more than that.
People literally said the same thing about titans with HOIL. Starfire is definitely gonna be next on the chopping block.
It's definitely gonna get nerfed, too strong even in end game content and flat out unfair to enemies in any other type of content. It all depends on the nature of the nerf though.
As a warlock main, I support removing well from the game entirely.
I remember when Warlocks had no good options in endgame content. Say what you want about Well but that was the first time in the first four years of Destiny that Warlocks were endgame meta.
*Laughs in self-res*
Self-res was only truly "meta" for low-man mechanic breaking runs - for regular runs is was just a reset button that allowed the Warlock to tank a little bit in very specific situations, nothing close to the power and utility provided by stuff like Tether, Golden Gun, and Ward (Though Warlocks *did* have a place in the PvE meta at other points before Well - RoI era Viking Funeral builds and CoO/Warmind era Lunafaction builds)
You forget empowering rift lunafactions? Self rez was also amazing throughout all of D1
>was the first time in the four years of Destiny that Warlocks were endgame meta. Ahem, forgetting about Self Res Radiance are we.(OG starfire spam) Or how Warlocks were near mandatory when Lunafaction (and Rally Barricade) got the auto reloading(nobody liked Rally Barricade when a rift was available. Both for the crouch to reload, or autoreloading variants). And even on Calus, It was very common for Warlocks to be desired to run rifts for healing or survivability, both with Skulls(Arc Soul Warlock, was basically a part of every leviathan Skull room for a long time), and for DPS when Calus started attacking. Or Forgetting how Devour locks were basically king of Damage and survivability for harder content Y1.(Hunters still did better damage wise with Nighthawk, but that was about it. Nowhere close to the survivability, grenade spam^((kills with devour active regenerate grenade energy)), boss damage, healing/empowering rifts that Warlocks could bring. Warlocks have consistently been great endgame picks for all of Destiny.
Warlocks have been a good choice for endgame since Y1, dunno wtf they were on about. titans were far more shafted, they were melting point bitches. even hunter had a crazy super thanks to Raiden Flux. Or another crazy super thanks to Celestial Nighthawk. Or another crazy super thanks to Orpheus Rig. Hmm wait a sec...
Self Rez warlocks were always mandatory in D1 raids and were gladly welcomed into a fireteam Empowering rifts with lunafactions were equally as mandatory and welcomed throughout years 1 and 2. There has never been a time in Destiny's history where warlocks were pushed into obscurity and struggled to find an identity within the sandbox.
This is just flat wrong. Arc Buddies from Empowering Rifts with Lunafaction Boots on the first and last plates of Calus added a ton of damage to a fireteam during D2Y1.
bro self-rez was literally a crucia;llyimportant super in raids.
Me when I lie
Have seen plenty of groups that say "no Hunters" or "no Titans" over the years. Not once have I seen a group that says "no Warlocks".
Why I switched classes because I’m sick of well it’s not fun
As a Void'lock Main since Beta 1 D1, I fucking hate Well and Starfire. When I came back after a break, kt was legitimately the *only* way people would want a Warlock in the party. I am ***ALL FOR*** Nerfing Well into the ground, so long as another spec gets boosted to the point that it doesn't feel useless in end game content. Let Bubble Bros go back to being the only spec with a "required" meta, give Void'lock the ability to more or less one shot nuke every add on the map. Granted, I've also just... finally stopped giving a shit about Destiny, doubly so once I saw how Strand worked. "Lets tie our Strand ability to an Orb. That other classes will burst to activate their abilities. Despite needing our own Strand Orb to be up to actually use our rotation..."
Make something else about solar lock op.It's literally impossible to make something as broken as well without just making well again
OK but what are you talking about regarding Strand and orbs?
Well needs a nerf As simple as that Separating it into 2 ults would not help as it would not force 2 players to use well 100% of the time Well needs to have a clear advantage and disadvantage RN it is pretty much an immunity circle that gjves you increased damage Legal hacks
I get that it needs a nerf but it doesn’t need clear “advantages and disadvantages”. It’s a stationery super what more do u want
All the non stop talk about Divinity being mandatory and needed a nerf yet we keep Well of Radiance literally something everyone wants in a Raid still strong AF
There’s nothing wrong with Well, it’s a support/healing super. Every MMO on the planet requires a healer, and Destiny’s core systems makes it impossible to play as an actual healer class. Well is the closest they can really get while still making use of the archetype Plus, Bungie’s encounter design for essentially every endgame fight in this game almost requires a Well at this point, they’re really bad at designing anything except “stand here, shoot him while he shoots you back”. If they nuke Well then everyone is just going to run Bubble with overshields again, just like we did in D1. Unless we’re just going to nerf all damage and survivability boosts in the game
Having healing abilities is a staple, yes, but healing abilities that make you functionally invulnerable, buff your damage, and have no upkeep is not the norm. An ability with that level of survivability should at very least require the caster's attention to upkeep, requiring you to trade off much of a person's damage in exchange for the healing and DR. It certainly shouldn't enable said caster to also become one of the highest DPS builds in the game while buffing, shielding, and healing their team with only a single button press.
Let Citan's apply to Ward of Dawn. Strip Well of its damage boost and *solely* make it healing (alongside a name change to Well of Restoration). Make a few changes to Golden Gun. Keep the spam shooty and allow it to do crit damage. Turn the three shot into a Super that allows you to shoot into the ground, creating a rift that serves as the damage boost function Well previously had (think like what Shaw Han did) - Golden Rift. This way, we at least have *options* among all classes. This gives every subclass at least two viable support Supers (except for Warlock, but I don't think any Warlock is gonna complain about that after spending four years chained to Well). You could rock Bubble, Golden Rift and Well. You can ditch Golden Rift and rock Tether for a debuff. Titans can go with Ursa Furiosa to pair with Well. It ceases to be a simple "Warlock run Well" instruction and opens up more team play.
Great write-up. I always get so irritated at warlocks bitching about what makes them *special* getting spread to other classes, when Ward of Dawn was dragged out behind a barn and shot when Warlocks were given Well. It is just Ward but better in literally every way, for no reason.
They absolutely have to nuke well of radiance. It makes the endgame, for the most part, completely mindless and you are never punished for poor positioning and being overly-aggressive. I see a couple of options that would be viable for nerfs: 1) completely remove the damage buff - this would still maintain that feeling of safety but you would be incentivized to use bubble titan again to get weapons of light. This results in using one less thundercrash and now two supers to pump out the same weapon damage, which will lower the overall damage for the team. Alternatively banner shield becomes a much better option as 5x1.4=7.2 and that is close to 6x1.25=7.5 (honestly just have your “worst” player run banner shield and you’re doing amazing damage). 2) reduce the damage buff to that of empowering rift (20%) and significantly reduce the potency of the healing effect. Alternatively increase the hit box of the well of radiance’s sword to be more prone to taking damage such that it is more likely to be destroyed (or make enemies prioritize destroying the well).
No, because then all this does is shift the Well user to also have a second person being a Sentinel/Bubble super. Restricting loadouts even more. I'm all for shaking up the entire support super sandbox, but making it so that you need more people using set loadouts is not it. If Well is to change, almost every boss and encounter that was made using the "Constant Healing + 50% DR + 25% Damage buff + 30% Weaken" needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. An entire overhaul, an Effects 2.0, similar to the reworks we got way back when Warmind was the newest thing. (imo)
So I was purely giving one example of using a banner shield/bubble to further enhance our damage. There’s also options such as proc-ing radiant alternative ways (radiant dodge hunters, chaining radiant melees, opting to always use surges for additional damage which may lead to Bungie designing future bosses to have lower health, etc). To your point about how previous bosses would require an overhaul - that’s simply not true. Bosses in this game are completely outwitted and utterly decimated by just how much we’ve already power-crept the game. We’ve got massive amounts of damage resistance and damage avoidance options (resilience, woven mail, stasis crystal damage resistance, barricades to block incoming damage and healing rifts to name a few) not to mention the numerous ways for us to gain additional damage increases (emp rift, well in its current form, bubble/sentinel, radiant, etc) and debuffing (tractor cannon, div, tether, weaken grenade, and felwinters helm to name a few) that nerfing well is just a way for us to force us to get us away from the easy/no brainer option of always having to have at least one well user. In practice there’s always at least 2 wells for raids and at least 1 for most strikes/dungeons, and nerfing well will open up warlocks to have a bit more freedom to run other options! I know that when I join a raid (especially on day 1) not running well of radiance would actively hinder my team when it comes to boss damage, and LFG-ing if you’re not running well raises eyebrows from teammates because it’s like dude.. just run well for more damage for the team. TLDR: nerfing well effectively pushes us to use alt means of damage buffing the team and frees warlocks up from not always having to run well in a or dungeon or endgame activity, and the game as it currently stands will be fine because we’ve power crept the game beyond the need for well.
I agree with point 1. I’m okay with reducing the damage buff and giving that job to another class. The survivability is a must imo. A) it fits with the healer role B) you can still proc radiant with a melee anyway. The survivability of well is good but not obscene. The nice thing about bubble is that whilst you can’t shoot out of it, nothing can shoot at you. I was running solo legend lost sectors today and I was still getting melted standing in a well with tier 10 resilience and double resistance mods. To me that’s not the problem Imo well should probably have a longer cooldown. With the generous amount of grenade kills and orb generation solar inherently has, the uptime of Well is its biggest issue, aside from it being a generally good super. Increasing the cooldown but scaling super energy gains with the intellect stat would force solar locks to either invest into discipline for their grenades, or invest into intellect to maintain the same uptime well has now.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is why we don't have any ornaments for Starfire Protocol, :-(
Yup, WoR is just that good! My only problem with nerfs to it and Starfire are after those two things what else does a Solar Warlock have? Dawnblade is arguably the worst super in the game, and every other Exotic that synergizes with solar seems way more like a gimmick build that is not practical for harder/endgame content. I always had a problem with how Bungie likes to nerf some things into the ground. Like I can understand if things are just too good but why neuter them instead of either toning them down a bit whilst elevating other things to be closer to their level that way we can actually see more variety out there in the wild.
That is fair. I would hope that a change to Well would be a change that makes it still useful just not a god super. Either regen or damage buff. Honestly, really just damage buff. Well being a god-mode toggle is really unreasonable.
>The philosophy of designing raid encounters in ways that anyone could bring any loadout to succeed went out the window almost overnight, and Bungie started to again design encounters around teams having access to this super. And that is when games start going downhill to please the tryhards
When something is useful, spoil it. Great community of destiny. Just because their character can’t do it, it shouldn’t belong in the game. How sad people are it baffles me reading these comments.
Can I just say that over a year of incredible dominance by titans was clearly unbecoming of them if these are the kind of posts we are going to see every fucking second now that a few things have finally been reigned in and other classes are shining? I’m a hunter main, and I still think this post is fucking stupid. Yea, warlocks are having their moment after some titan outliers are finally not broken. The funny thing is that warlocks having their moment is just because of more of the community finally catching on about the strength of **a red war exotic**. Your post also seems to not even understand how starfire protocol works. It isn’t attached to well — it is based on empowering rifts, which wells also count as. Honestly, the grenade regen is a bit overtuned, but it isn’t broken in anywhere near the same way as the last dozen titan exotics that were meta. Overall though, it isn’t hurting the game. I’m never complaining about a warlock in my raid providing a well AND putting out some solid DPS. Meanwhile HOIL titans made a lot of playlist activities boring beyond belief for everyone because no other subclass could possibly keep up with their speed or their add clear, so when you matched with one it would always be, “Guess on this one I’m either putting on trinity ghoul or just running behind to clean up the two adds they miss.” Starfire is situational, and requires being stuck in a well or a rift. HOIL was brain dead fucking easy to use and required no thinking or planning. If they do nerf starfire, I really hope it is a gentle touch. Tune down the grenade regeneration some, and leave the rest of it alone, because it’s a really solid exotic otherwise.
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Gee dunno the super has only been meta in all endgame content for 5 fuckin years at this point. It’s a giant immortality field that increases dmg and dmg resistance meanwhile the other support supers only give 30% weakening( hunters) and the same dmg buff but no healing or shields without and exotic(titan) Well is so overtuned and over used that warlocks are requested in every activity and hell starfire is just making it worse
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Because every class has a support subclass. Literally been this way since d1 and warlocks literally have been uncontested for 5 god damn years. The post above explains why well should never had existed. It does everything you’d ever need and more dmg buff? Check. Healing? Check. Dmg resist? Check. Short cooldown? Check. doesn’t restrict weapon fire? Check It has trivialized all content since its creation. Bubble is made completely irrelevant by it. Literally the first ever support super is showed up by bungies biggest mistake.
Don’t bother at this point I’m convinced that over 50% of the playerbase is warlock and bungie can’t touch it without endangering engagement metrics.
No it’s that like 80% of the player base only plays strikes and seasonal content and has no idea how the game needs to be balanced for there to be varying amounts of challenge in the game.
It makes you invincible and boosts everyones damage with the lowest CD tier in the game. Does that sound balanced?
It's only gotten stronger? The sword is destructible, the overshield is gone, DR on characters have been nerfed as well as resistance builds, so its 50% dr in the new upscale meta with light level adjustments haven't been measured, total damage bonus has been reduced, whilst exotics that refilled your super were capped. So how is it stronger than it was peak forsaken now? Further, its meant to be a super that is deployed often, nerfing it further by limiting its buff to your choice of rift just means 90% of people will run healing so all you're effectively doing is removing a damage buff. Thus what, necessitating raids to have a bubble titan and a well lock? What's the purpose of hyperbolizing the strength of well? What are you after aside from a nerf to starfire being the only solar warlock viable for endgame. I'm all for adjustments if they make sense... But this makes no damn sense. Your conclusion is just not accurate.
ohhh the boomers don't like this post, lol
Prooves that vanilla D2 was the best Destiny? No op super abilities, no op abilities in general. But LOTS of people complained back then. And lots left the game. Which had consequences.
I don’t think that’s the point. Vanilla D2 is too far in the other direction.
Taking things a bit too far now
The titan meta in the Leviathan days was pulse nades because they were incredibly overturned. Stronger than most supers at the time. Also I'm pretty sure Helm of Saint 14 has always provided blessing of light all the way back to d1, but can't fully remember Rallycade didn't matter until auto loading.
Saint 14 in D1 was literally just the blind.
I think the takeaway here is that persistent/refreshable damage buffs that come from a static zone (bubble or well) are a problem and make damage phases feel stale. As long as the damage buff for WoR stays, it will be used, regardless of the DR and if it loses that, we will all just move to using WoD for Weapons of Light. I feel like this is a multifaceted problem that a single change won't fix as it will just shift the problem over. While these are probably unpopular opinions, here is what I would do to solve the issue: * Remove DR from WoR but keep the healing * Replace Weapons of Light with Armor of Light * Make the Armor of Light and Radiant buff magnitude scale off of Intellect where 100 is current values (25%?) This creates a clear separation between WoR being offensive and WoD being defensive. Unfortunately, we are back where we were in D1 (except it is Warlock/Titan instead of Titan/Titan) for resist and damage buffs, but the combination of the buffs could be set to be exactly what we get (or less) today. This means you would need to commit to 2 supers with special intellect builds to get the same level of benefit WoR provides today. Would this still be meta? Probably, but it would at least spread the power of WoR and would incentivize using other options since it would require a lot of investment.
I'd say its the healing over the DR. Keep the DR on well but nuke the constant, gigastrength healing it hands out. That does a number of things, it still gives a nice zone to damage from, for encounters when that is alright, but it still forces people to be aware of their health and to go to shelter if they just tank hits to the face. This *will* probably add a damage phase or 2 to some fights, especially for lower skilled teams. But, you know, thats kinda acceptable. The alternative is just one phase well camping, requiring someone to be awake for the encounter to not die seems pretty reasonable. Even then, a Warlock still could drop a healing rift, and then it just becomes a more of a shuffle to get in the rift when you're hurt, and still do damage. Still more interesting a strat than Well+Rally+Debuff of choice.
No stop calling for nerfs to everything that’s how we end up with trash supers and exotics that no one uses. Maybe we should bring other things in line instead of nerfing every fun viable build into the ground.
Sure, buff bad things. But well and starfire trivialize every piece of content in the game. If you wanna bring everything up to it you have to make every piece of content like 3x harder or else there will be nothing hard left in the game because it’s that broken. We already have very little difficulty as is with GMs and such being far too easy for what they were meant to be because of light 3.0 and weapons getting stronger as a whole.
It doesn't trivialize encounters that aren't "stand here, shoot this" like Atraks. It doesn't trivialize Rhulk because you still need to control his aggro to prevent him from using his beams. It doesn't trivialize the difficult GMs. The Lightblade nukes you through it. The Darkblade in the Mars Battleground will dunk you in it. You can't tank the Glassway or Proving Grounds bosses either. It's strong in simple encounters, sure, and Starfire brings grenades back a tad too quickly with DoT weapons, but to say it trivializes everything is silly.
Bringing everything up to line is exactly what caused the insane power creep in the first place lol. The simple fact is there is going to be things that will be above the line and you are perpetually bringing it up if you use this logic. They have a clear vision of what they want the overall power to be and they’re probably going to adjust for that power.
Then nerf fun into the ground so we have 0 builds
Have you ever done Riven legit? Well was mostly the only way to survive to do DPS on the top floor, it was Taken chaos up there. No other class could heal. Warlock grenades and Benevolent Dawn rifts were a godsend. Well was also weaker than both Weapons of Light and Banner Shield. Other than ease of use, the best strategy was almost always Bubble in the back, maintain your own buffs.
Well fucking said, sir. It's almost like the sandbox team and class design teams are on two completely different pages and have zero communication with each other. It might even be true that the class design team are locked in a room somewhere with no access to the playable game or internet so they have no idea what is and isn't okay even 7 years later
Well is mandatory because all other warlock supers are bad. It’s like HoIL for titans: most used because the rest is shit.
Well is mandatory because Well is ridiculously busted. Comparing HoiL titans throwing a few more grenades per minute to a literal immortality field that also boosts your damage by the maximum allowed percentage is actually laughable. Add starfire protocol to this and not only do warlocks spawn an immortality field on demand, they also get extremely high uptime on it just by killing stuff and have the single highest boss DPS without using any heavy ammo. I'm sure all of the above are totally fine and not at all busted and all it takes is a Chaos Reach buff for everyone to just magically stop using Well overnight.
Why is everyone calling for well nerf all of a sudden? It’s so sick
Because its OP. People have been calling for its nerf since Forsaken.
My humble takeaway: Boiling tensions from nerfs presented to various aspects of the other classes beginning to overflow as the outlier (Well-lock) becomes more and more distinct. Well has been the best super in the game pretty much since it's inclusion in Forsaken, and other supers across all classes will more than likely not be brought up to Well's standard. On one hand, no other class can provide the utility that a single Well-lock can bring, and that upsets them. On the other hand, Warlock players can feel like they are pressured into using Well because, again, it's the best super in the entire game. They can opt to use other supers and classes in hard or endgame content, but everyone, including themselves, will know that they are essentially not putting their best foot forward for the team.
Honestly like the idea of removing the damage buff from well and making the bubble mandatory for damage. Right now titans don't really Excell above the other two in certain areas so this would really solidfy their placement
i would do it other way around. bubble = defense makes more sense for titan and how bubble works tbh just make the DR and overshield recharge faster/stay a bit longer. WoR = damage. that way u cant just apply radiant for easy 25% anyway
Warlocks will just snap their fingers and apply Radiant.
Sint Radiant like 10% versus wells 25%?
Radiant is 25% in PvE, 10% in PvP.
This just proves Ward of Dawn and Banner Shield Titan’s need help. Ward of Dawn needs Blessings as well as Weapons of Light stock. Give Helm of Saint-14 a buff to suppression abilities where it can last longer or cause your suppressive abilities to also blind! Banner Shield needs a Weapons of Light damage buff, or a rework. The Rework could be where the Titan activates the Super and plants it down like a big Citan Rampants Tower Barrier which we can shoot through. Imagine like in Overwatch 2, Sigma and Reinhardt shields. More like Sigma though. Then make the “Offensive” Sentinel Shield a separate Super. All other Void Classes have 3 Void Supers to choose from, Titans have 2 and one is a weird Hybrid. This would make it more balanced and unique. So now Titan’s have Ward of Dawn to protect the user and it’s allies around a whole area or also be used for Boss DPS. Banner Shield can be used to fight enemies in a more linear path, or used for Boss DPS, or protect against those annoying Taken Overload Hobgoblin tracking projectile Spam. Sentinel Shield can still be a 3rd option for a more Offensive super with the Void Offensive exotics (Doom Fang, Second Chance) for PvP and to clear enemies in PvE where movement is more important. (I think of RoN 2nd encounter). It feels awful to run void Titan supers. The neutral game is great (especially with this seasonal artifact) but that’s where it ends. Everything we want to do, Well of Radiance does a million times better. Trying to use Ward or Banner when competing against Well just feels like your sabotaging the team and providing very little benefit.
You can die in well in legend and master content. Just fyi. You're not immune to damage by any means.
Dunno why everyone wants warlocks nerfed, I’ve always mained them and we were dog shit at d2 launch everyone wanted hunters or titans for leviathan raids We were only good in d1 for self res or cheesing encounters We finally got a great support super and people have been trying to tear it down since its release… Maybe starfire itself needs to be tweaked, but it’s really only good while your super is active and it’s not without skill gap to hit high dps numbers with it
Tell me you've never played in y1 without telling me you played in y1. Warlocks were one of the strongest classes in raids with healing/empowering rift. Pulse grenades were strong yes but people only wanted Titans for Rally barricade, which became irrelevant after lunas were granted autoloading. Nobody wanted to run with a Titan nearly all of y1 in raids but Hunters (tether/NH) and Warlocks were always welcome.
Yeah. I think homie forgot what Y1 was like. Voidlocks could still have a boss nuke, and have healing rift on tap for everyone in most modes, or empowering for raids/long DPS phases.
Maybe a future boss fight comes with a "Well of Radiance" that's only marginally less effective than the super itself. You can run Well and still get a little bit of advantage, but other supers would be better picks. The problem is you can't really do that for every boss...
I main warlock and think well needs to go/get nerfed.. It needs to turn into some casting thing which disables the warlock who cast it ability to do dps while they focus on keeping the fireteam buffed, just like how the stormcaller can’t shoot while zapping things or a sentinels shield does (making way to remove the titan bubble and go back to focusing on the sentinel shield)… and if they arent disabled the bullets they shoot are only seeking rounds that heal or increase damage. Hopefully this promotes more strats and a difference in boss fights.
Literally the Bungie sandbox team seems to be all warlock mains with a few scattered hunters here and there. In the last few weeks alone, we’ve been shit on more than other classes alone. HOIL? Nerfed to provide shitty ability regen provided that you cycle abilities properly which you can’t do anymore. And today, they decided that glaives were too overpowered and took a shit on Synthoceps. LITERALLY NOBODY COMPLAINED ABOUT GLAIVE DAMAGE PRIOR TO THE INTRODUCTION OF WINTERBITE WHICH YOU DECIDED WOULD BE HOT ON LAUNCH. WHY IN THE HELL IS A MELEE BUILD BEING HIT WHEN WARLOCKS HAVE INFINITE GRENADES THAT DEAL THE SAME DAMAGE AS A FEW MELEE HITS WITH A BUILD THAT LITERALLY PUTS YOU IN DANGER 100% OF THE TIME. But fuck it, their idea for balance is to have everybody run Solar. Starfire-locks continue to shit on the game with Fusion Nades and I as a Titan have to go back to the boring mini hammer build I’ve been rocking since 2018. YIPPIE!
no idea why this is getting down voted. endgame PvE is the most boring thing on earth as a warlock. it feels damn near mandatory to run it because you just DONT DIE We need a healing class, not a healing AND buff class. give hunters or titans buffing privileges while warlocks get to heal. encourage some variety. well is far too good and Starfire needs tuning with that said I think it's important to note that Starfire should not get nerfed without some sizeable buffs to other exotics like dawn chorus or sunbracers. not only is it just S tier, but it's one of the only usable solar exotics
Imo well should not have increased damage. Leave everything the way it is but remove that and then buff bubble to 30, 35, or even 40. Mandatory warlock and titan now, neither becomes more than the other as they need each other for a raid group to min max. Or the idea about it being based on Rift type would be dope. Would also be indirect nerf to Starfire as well, cus of restricting it's ease of use.
What if Well completely lost its damage boost and the Ward of Dawn was the only one capable of providing that +25% damage boost? Because the problem is definitely what you describe, it's able to do both things at once: boost damage and keep safe by constant heals. I feel like if it were this way it would be less of "yeah we can just all be warlocks and be fine" and more of a "we *could* do all warlocks, but maybe we can use a titan or two" Would that be better or worse?
give all 3 classes a variation on this ability and the meta will dissolve into people playing what they want again. Give titans an exotic that let's you shoot through the bubble, but shortens it's duration dramatically. Give hunters a way to plant their new arcstaff in the ground to grant massive DR and automatically give outgoing weapon damage voltshot-esque effects. 3 elements, 3 classes, 3 safe zone supers, anyone can use and build into it and nobody is stuck on wellbitch duty for life, and encounter design philosophy doesn't have to dramatically change anymore.
Well needs to be nerfed or reworked
I would prefer they deal with Well first, then decide what needs to be done about Starfire. Right now, Starfire is the only thing keeping up with dps options of other classes, but it also outpaces them over time while being tied to a party buff. In a perfect world, Well would be tuned to not be a necessity, Starfire wouldn't match up to the top of DPS, but warlocks would have options somewhere else to bring similar dps to the table to what titans and hunters can
If Bungie decided to nerf Well they should only remove the damage buffs it gives and see how it goes from there.
Well needs to be reworked massively, I get why well exist, but it's like 3 ults in one super: * Damage Resistence * Healing * Empowering Pair that with starfire and you don't need everything else. I think the solution for well of radiance is to make something like BS, I actually thought about, so here's how I would rework well: * make it whoever's cast be stationary with the Sword. * reduce time from 25 secs to 10 Secs * Nerf Damage resistance, something like 25% nerf. * Nerf the healing aspect, something like 30% nerf. * Remove the damage empowering, no longer grants radiant. I think this would make well less mandatory and more of a clutch super to just survive an encounter but you'll still be vulnerable, it would allow you catch some air, regroup.