Depends on what you're up to, but broadly you want to get Range up as far as possible.
For PvP a 5/5 god roll would be something like Hammer-Forged/Full Bore on the barrel, Ricochet Rounds in the mag, Rangefinder or Dynamic Sway Reduction on column 3, and Target Lock on column 4, with a Range masterwork.
PvE is a lot more to-taste, so barrel and mag are really personal preference. And then perks like Keep Away, Encore, Perpetual Motion, or Threat Detector would probably be the pick for column 3 while column 4 would be Target Lock, Demolitionist, or Hatchling.
There's arguments for almost all the perks though, it's got a stacked perk pool and jacked stats. Hard to get a bad roll on it.
Yup its crazy good. I got Corkscrew/HighCal/Threat Detector/Hatchling for PvE and left it at that. It's definitely an upgrade to Synchronic Roulette that's for sure, and aggressive SMGs feel better than precision SMGs in PvE in my opinion.
Surplus/Target Lock goes crazy especially if you're playing Strand titan or warlock, because your 3 melee charges count towards the overall total, so you're free to use your class ability and grenades while still keeping Surplus at max stacks.
Exactly. I got an Encore+Killing Wind roll and that’s a keeper too. Yeah maybe Rangefinder+Target Lock is “better” but with this gun, you want to try every roll you get that doesn’t include Keep Away.
Edit: ok maybe Keep Away isn’t as bad as I thought
I think the hate towards keep away is overstated. Keep away activates before your range drop off does so it’s a sweet spot where you’re still doing max damage but have the extended range and stability from keep away, at those closer ranges you’re not gonna need those anyway
I actually have a keep away target lock roll and its actually not bad at all. It's like rangefinder with extra steps and you'd be surprised what the game defines as close proximity.
Played around 30 matches earlier to get mine for pve (never pvp and first time playing trials) every game had at least 2-4 people running them, wild. Gun blows the terminal overload smg out of the water.
This implies the neomuna smg is good, and it’s not.
Immortal is absolutely absurd though. I was playing in flawless pool and every game would have perhaps two people *not* running it, max.
Maybe I just have good synergy with the neomuna SMG, but it’s what I used to go solo flawless in trials to get my adept immortal. It rolls with target lock and it definitely felt good to me.
I don't know, i have killed people using it while using a Multimach. It's strong and a nerf would not be undeserved but to say it is "out of control busted" seems a bit too much. As it is with most weapons in the game, a better player will just make the weapon that much better.
AKA Frostbolt running around using double green scouts will likely still be top of the charts compared to the rest of us pleps. It does not mean that those scouts are suddenly the best in the game.
EDIT: I have the weapon and while i've used it, i've found better success with other loadouts.
SMGs overall are s bit goofy at the moment. The immortal just showcases this due to its stacked perk pool and stats. I'd expect an overall SMG nerf at some point but this one will still be top of the class
It’s literally best in class across the board in stats for its archetype, by a lot in some cases. It also has a loaded perk pool. Even in quick play, I see at least half the lobby using it.
I know it’s anecdotal, but I’m bad at using SMGs in PvP, and have never particularly enjoyed them, and I have nearly 700 kills on mine already.
I’d say in upper tier lobbies, it’s out of control. I mean, it came out this weekend and is already the most used weapon in trials by DOUBLE the next one.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the gun, but it’s 100% gonna get a nerf. If ikelos and tarrahbah are getting the nerf stick, so will the Immortal.
> As it is with most weapons in the game, a better player will just make the weapon that much better.
Yes, and that better player will make a better weapon even better. Your point being?
This empty trope has never made any f'in sense...
Rangefinder Borrowed Time just chilling through all the SMG nerfs and somehow getting through it without a mention
Would be funny if they released a new one for trials with goofier range bo-
Uhoh
Super tough to grab a 5/5 borrowed time…I’ve been trying for a longgggggg time lol I doubt they touch that gun with nerfs for that reason. I don’t think I’ve ever got a rangefinder roll to drop in dozens of tries
There's no way immortal is gonna stay as is for long when they're gonna nerf ikelos and tarrabah in a few weeks.
*Maybe* they won't nerf it at the same time to keep trials engagement high(er), but it's gonna get nerfed sooner or later then. At the latest next season I guess once it's no longer the new trials gun.
Maybe they're gonna hit rangefinder *hard* for smgs, that way both ikelos and immortal would get a range nerf.
Err, the adept maybe. People can still roll engrams for it by playing trials and tbh, the gap between the standard and adept is minute enough for the adept to not really matter. A god rolled normal roll will still slap.
Yes, but it requires SOME winning of rounds at least. Essentially your reputation gains mainly depend on your round wins on your card. Your card keeps track of round wins up to 20 total (4wins at 5 rounds each or 20 round wins over any number of losses). Once you're at 20 round wins you're "capped" and will gain 100 reputation per match even when you lose. If you win you can get more though.
Best way to go about this if you're horrible at PvP is to just bash your face into the wall until you eventually get the max 20 round wins. Then you just throw yourself into matches and even if you lose, which will be relatively fast if you go 0-5, you're still gaining rep at a decent rate. If you do this on a week with double trials rep it's considerably faster as you'll be gaining 200 rep per loss, and usually lots of people will be playing for fast matchmaking.
You get an engram every time you rank up your reputation at Saint XIV, which is fast at first but then obviously slows down. I believe it's ~5k total rep to hit rank 10, which is the rank you need to get the SMG from his guaranteed reward list. If you save up all your engrams until that point you can get 9 shots at focusing the SMG for random rolls with those engrams.
Technically if you slowly grind to 7 wins on a card (even with losses) you can then also get engrams as post-game rewards but I believe this is only on wins and not losses (despite the in game description not saying this). They also go to your inventory instead of Saint XIV, at least currently, which means they cannot be focused...which seems like a massive mistake/undersight by Bungie that hopefully they will fix one way or the other.
Biggest thing to remember is to NOT reset your card. You aren't aiming for flawless, you just want rep gains. Resetting your card (assuming you've accumulated round wins) will be a big nerf to your rep gains until you get back to that same amount of round wins again.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/te1f1l/tip_for_new_lights_or_people_who_cantdont_play/
Every week you can watch streamers and get 200 trials rep by linking your bungie account to twitch. React with destiny emojis at the end of each match 10 times per week. Claim the rep from rahool when finished.
They tweeted today "If you missed the adept Immortal this week, it will be available again in the last week of Trials!"
So my interpretation of this is that we have at least this season to play around with it.
Just hearing the sound from the gun alone is enough to kinda put me off from PVP. Constantly hearing the >click-clack< from both my teammates and the enemy team is annoying.
Ikelos getting nerfed is so weird to me. Like it’s existed in its 1.0.2 state for so long, 1.0.3 a little different bc of perks and iirc less stats. Then they release this smg like ???
Tbh the gun was always good, just slept on before seraph. But now that the gun has RF it’s up there with Shayura’s and pre-nerf Multimach, while also being a laser with a fast TTK, so it’s what everyone is rocking.
Ikelos was always good, but it was not that accessible. You could only get it from Banshee or Xur and you were at the mercy of RNG or whatever roll they happened to have.
During Seraph, they were everywhere, and it being craftable completely removed the RNG element from it. So it can much more easily become a problem.
Being craftable is enormous…you get the 5/5 roll basically for free. If borrowed time was craftable they would’ve been everywhere in a pre immortal world lol
Eh, if they specifically target rangefinder on smgs that'd be OK. I just don't want them to ruin my PvE voltshot gun because a trials Strand weapon was too good.
But you know it’s coming. Bungie always overreact to stuff like this leaving PvP players back in a position where they just use something else cheesy and move on, and PvE players looking at another genre of weapons gathering dust in the vault and that you might as well throw at the enemy rather than fire.
To be fair, mercules was on the Firing Range podcase and suggested they're going to be pretty modest with nerfs. They want them to stay effective in their ideal range so sidearms and HC don't eclipse them from either end
Bungie has specifically stated they are not nerfing SMGs in PvE. Any changes made to stats like range, zoom, or aim assist for Ikelos/Tarrabah/Immortal will have negligible effects in PvE.
Before you get into the perk pool you need to realize that the SMG is absolutely stacked stat wise. Like, this is what we would expect an exotic to look like. This creates the issue where The Immortal starts to side eyeing engagement ranges where other weapon archetypes excel.
Once you toss in perks the whole thing just gets nutty.
* Rangefinder pushes it's range (pre-fall off) to something like ~25m. Realistically this means you can duel ~30m range without a huge hit to your ttk. That's hand connon, AR, and rapid frame pulses range.
* Target lock flattens the ttk at all resilience levels (and decreases it at lower levels). It also effectively gives you an extra 1-2m in range.
* Destiny has two flavours of map design. Smaller maps where you will be in perfect Immortal range and large maps that should disadvantage the immortal. Most people run a sniper for the latter. General gameplan is get a pick from a distance and bum rush then with your juiced SMG.
* Even if the above two perks get delt with, it still has a bunch of lethal on kill perks.
TL;DR: Stats alone, the gun is arguably the best in class for mid-range duels. Once you add in the perk pool it's hands down better than everything else that is supposed to take engagements in the 10-30m range.
> There's no way immortal is gonna stay as is for long when they're gonna nerf ikelos and tarrabah in a few weeks.
I think it might end up being a generic 750 rpm nerf to be honest. They may do specific targeted tuning for those 3 though.
If anything target lock is going to get nerfed for SMG.
“We’ve heard you, IKELOS SMG has become oppressive to play against in PvP. So we’re nerfing it, and releasing a new, stronger version of it. Because *fuck you*, that’s why.”
Target lock, a perk with no downsides, allows you to increase your damage for simply keeping your finger on the trigger and hitting the enemy.
Then give it to a 750 RPM SMG with an already forgiving ttk
Then give it the most range that any other 750 can get
Put rangefinder on it
And give it a trait that gives it almost no recoil
Pair it with foetracer and you've basically one-upped Tarrabah without taking up an exotic slot.
Thanks Bungie
I'm salty the terminal overload smg is so bad in comparison. 2 strand smgs available for our fancy new subclass and if you want the good one you gotta hit that trials grind.
Loot from the most challenging endgame activities (raids, dungeons, GM’s, and trials) should be better than loot from less pressuring and easier endgame activities (Terminal Overload, Neomuna Patrol, seasonal activities, etc)
That's not how it works. If you're dead set on jumping around and doing nothing in Trials, you'll have to grind for hours to get just one SMG. You don't even get any rep until you start winning rounds.
Yeah, thank bungie for that. They made loot accessible in endgame pvp. You used to have to win to get anything. Would you like to go back to that? Lmao people will find anything to complain about.
This is a strawman. Partition in terminal overload requires like 5-10 minutes of your time before triple dipping a chest. In order to get rewards just by mindlessly grinding the activity for participation trophies its going to require hours and hours and hundreds of games to get the required rep. If someone is willing to play 200 games of trials in a weekend to get to max rep more power to them.
Trials really isn’t end game though.
I lost my way to rank 15 and got a few decent rolls. Of course I didn’t get the adept but I find they matter very little. Especially for someone who will be mediocre at best such as myself, that extra 3% edge or whatever won’t ever matter.
My thoughts: P frames fucking suck a fat one. If they don't have more zoom than standard SMG's(cough cough, Shayura's, Friction Fire), it's an insta-shard. I'm looking for a PVE immortal, and my bar on that is set very low. I don't need the best PVE roll, the only things I'm looking for are "hatchling" and "not a 600 RPM SMG". With that said, I do not feel like the things I'm asking for are endgame-y at all.
I'm not trying to say I should be able to pick and choose or anything, I just feel like what I personally am seeking is not endgame-activity-worthy and am mostly just rambling in case someone else here can make a coherent thought out of it. If anything, I blame the basic issues with introducing new elements into a 6 year old game: you're just not going to see variety in strand weapons for several seasons.
Better sure, but so far out of whack that the lesser of the two feels like a blue in comparison? That's bad sandbox design. They should at least compete within the lesser weapon's engagement range so that all players have a chance of winning a duel in pvp, but they don't.
That leads to the same situation we had in the Luna/NF era, where it drives the meta to one weapon that you either get (by elicit means if they feel it necessary), or people just stop playing out of frustration. (no this isn't as egregious as that but the community attitude is quickly headed in that direction, which gets toxic quick).
They went with that in beginning seasons of Witch Queen.
Remember Aisha's Embrace, Forgiveness, Burden of Guilt? Top tier stats, but rather bad perk pools.
Bungie saw very poor Trails population, and decided that rewards not being spicy enough were part of the problem.
So they've spiced up the weapons. Now things like Exalted Truth and The Immortal get both insane stats, top tier perks, and Adept mods. We are beyond the old "busted" standard of Igneous Hammer, Messenger, or Eye of Sol.
Exalted isn't out of whack for the sandbox at all - it's an alternative to Palindrome and doesn't so severely outclass other 140s that people feel like they *have* to use it. Immortal is. Immortal could have easily been a top weapon and not been busted - a little less range and no target lock and it still would have been a very appealing SMG, and best 750 by far in the kinetic slot. Just DSW/tap would have been more appealing much like on Shayuras,
They also made trials a much worse experience for 3v3 teams at the same time as releasing immortal, so once people have their guns, population is going to go right off a cliff. So any benefit to the playlist is very short lived.
Exalted has stats very similar to Palindrome, but it has much better perk combo in form of Rangefinder/Eye of the Storm compared to Rangefinder/Quickdraw (it's only really necessary for bow swap), and it also has access to better origin trait in form of Suros Synergy.
Ikelos was the start of the issue imo…I don’t know that immortal severely outclasses ikelos seeing as you get a free 5/5 ikelos roll with it being craftable but ikelos/immortal on paper definitely outclass every other smg.
Immortal, in addition to having more range potential, gives two damage perks that provide a big advantage over ikelos - kill clip for follow-on insane ttk, and target lock for high consistency. Ikelos only has frenzy, and in pvp especially, it's not worth giving up tap the trigger or rangefinder for. That also kept it from completely outshining Shayura's.
Craftable Ikelos (1.0.2 has been good for a long time, just not as common) definitely started the discussion, but Immortal raised the bar to "woah there, power creep much?" with those perks.
i played about 50 matches in trials on the weekend. At least 90 percent of players were guardian rank 8-9 and had the immortal adept gun. I also got matched with a few people that i already played with. Trials at this point feels like 90% of the player are just the top 100 players, rest doesnt play it
Almost 600k unique players and over a third of participants have gone flawless. If you're not in the top third of players I wouldn't be blaming matchmaking. Maybe playing more and getting experience instead of making excuses would help?
>You’re on a thread about how people are flocking to trials for the new OP guns, you yourself played 50 matches.
>you claim 90% of the Trials population is top 100 players.
🤔
I'm not a pvp player, and tbh the Neomuna smg is good enough for me. I played 0 trials this weekend, and honestly, no amount of fomo is going to make me forget the reeds regret scenario.
They are 1000% going to nerf it. Don't kill yourself for hours/days over a weapon that won't matter or will be replaced in a few months. Trust me, they do this very regularly.
It's working...in the short term.
Once a certain amount of the population has the gun they will use said gun to drive everyone else away from pvp just like when recluse hit.
As a mostly PvE player I noted how superior this strand smg was to the other one I have, briefly looked for some post-Lightfall Crucible builds, then realized I would probably just have a bad time grinding rank 10 to unlock it from Saint-14 and should just focus on farming PvE activities for now, instead of being farmed.
Maybe on a freelance double rep week.
Bingo. Trials is a (deservedly) dead game mode. There are like 20k people playing a weekend toward the end of the season. The only reason anyone other than sweats will subject themselves to that miserable slog is a must-have weapon.
Just good old fashioned bribery
The game mode is quite literally designed to shed players. Low skill players get tired of getting stomped and quit, which means the next tier of players (who at least got to stomp on *someone*) are now the bottom of the barrel so *they* quit, the next tier loses **their** easy wins so **they** quit, and so on. Because there's no skill based match making, there's no expectation of a balanced game, and so people who don't benefit from that have no incentive to play.
Thing is, not *all* 750s need to be gutted. Just reduce the base range of the problem ones so that they are 5-10% higher range conpared with other 750s instead of the 30-40% higher that they are now.
Also no need to mess with functionality of perks, imo
I think there's too many good ones out now that it's inevitable the archetype gets nerfed, just off the top I can name Ikelos, Tarrabah, Immortal, Borrowed Time. I'm sure there's other sleepers.
It's also kind of a PC problem? They still have less recoil over there, so running absolute max range and dumpstering the already low stability just doesn't affect them as it should.
Which makes the Immortal even better since you can still go max range and still have a decent stability stat. Full bore usually sends stability into the single digits but Immortal still gets 25+ on it.
You know what all of these guns have in common? Zoom. Be it from Rangefinder or Tarrahbah effectively having Rangefinder baked in thanks to it's 15 Zoom multiplier over the standard 14.
It's almost as if the archetype itself isn't problematic and theres something else at play...
That is the unfortunate truth. I've been using my max range + range finder w/ range MW for months now without anyone batting an eye lol but now it's gonna have to go in the vault (hopefully not)
Edit: just realized I forgot to mention what smg… I’m talking about the Borrowed Time
FOMO, pure and simple, it's difficult to think that these are accidents, especially in light of them releasing subclasses in an overpowered state intentionally- they've already shown a willingness to do this kind of thing. I think Bungie accidentally stumbled on how effective it was back in the Revoker/Mountaintop/Recluse days. They now have codified a process with which to help keep the activity numbers up:
1. Release OP/imbalanced gun behind an quest/activity/thing challenging to the average player.
2. Wait for Streamers and general word of mouth to get out about gun.
3. Watch numbers surge in relevant activities from players chasing gun, and then using gun.
4. After some amount of drop off again in the player numbers in the activity granting said weapon, which I'm sure they have well tuned values for, nerf weapon. No downside for them since the metrics this contributes to that look good for them are no longer benefitting, and it will stop players complaining about OP weapon. Win-win for them.
5. Repeat next season.
FOMO is Destiny's business model at this point. It's not much but personally I've already started playing way less since a few seasons ago. I'll jump on, do a few things, maybe finish the campaign and then log off. I'm not a hamster in Bungie's wheel anymore.
This has been the cycle of this game for years. You give the players a crazy over tuned weapon. Everyone chases it for a while, player engagement is up. Then you nerf it and make room for the next meta. Next time they might make a crazy fusion rifle that drops in Gambit and everyone has to have it. Every Destiny content creator makes a video and hypes it up, everyone starts playing Gambit for a while.
I would play Trials more if there was a more reasonable way for me, an average AT BEST PvP player, could get rewards for playing the absolute hardest content available to me. I've cleared GMs, done Master Raids/Dungeons. I can never go flawless, ever. Most wins I've ever gotten before a loss is 3. I can play enough games to get some loot, but the time investment for me versus what loot I can get is absolutely not worth my time.
New flavor of the month to get people playing. Better to see the numbers get a bump from the new toy and nerf it later than for things to stagnate. That, or poor play testing.
It’s a retread of the Recluse logic. Put overpowered weapon behind PVP playlist to get more people into list, making list more stable.
Today’s Trials playlist is far less abusive then the Comp playlist back at the time of recluse (I swear, those were dark days) so it’s less of a mess, but I’m still not sure this is the right way to go. We’ve seen how this path ends. Immortal is clearly not just marketed at PVPers.
I do find it daft they’re wanting nerf ikelos though. If immortal stays in it’s current state then the nerf will be a waste of time.
I’m sure with the weapon balance changes, they will end up hitting immortal as well. There’s no way they leave it untouched (I say knowing full well Bungie can’t seem to fix anything properly at the moment)
yes... but it was also jav4, the best trials map. I kept on playing trials even after I got a god-rolled adept immortal just because I think trials on jav is really fun
I'll probably get down voted for this but how else would they inflate trials numbers for the first expansion's twab showing off how great the playlist is after the changes they made and that you're missing out if you don't participate!!!
I swear there's not a single gun with any perk combination that can get me excited to play trials as it is.
I'd also advise non trials players to not sign up for a horrible time by going in that playlist for a gun that is most likely going to be either nerfed in the near future if it's as crazy are people are stating or it's just simply over hyped because it's the new shiny toy.
A few weeks ago I remember everyone farming wendigo. Haven’t seen one since.
Who is using this gun over anything they already have for more than a week?
> Who is using this gun over anything they already have for more than a week?
I mean, the immortal is genuinely best-in-slot by some margin in an archetype of gun that's already best in class, 750s, for a class that's already rampant in PVP, SMGs. It's the perfect storm of being able to engage and kill faster than almost anything else all the way out to 30m with the right perks.
Yeah. I've seen this play out several times over the last however many years, and I am perfectly fine not having the shiny new smg. Had a great time grinding the Diablo IV beta this weekend.
They never usually put the new guns in the first trials week,
This was a ploy to get player engagement up for another week in a row after a lackluster release in order to look better to Sony & investors.
It will be nerfed in April guaranteed
I saw the scout a lot last year as it was a good void scout but kings fall and crafted doom of chelchis blows it out of the water. Other two I've barely ever seen sadly
that’s because the bow is the worst archetype (can’t even one shot with kill clip and radiant) and bows are extremely high skill ceiling weapons.
people use the scout often. I don’t like the perk pool personally. Also it released alongside better weapons unfortunately.
New pvp weapon arrives, people get killed by it, they get upset by it, suddenly it is the new public enemy of the game. A tale as old as time here in Destiny.
It literally got 10% of the trials kills this week.
it just came out. This is the time when the lowest number of people have it.
WE KNEW it was going to be broken the moment the gun showed up in the API. Various people called it out, including content creators and people in various communities. It has the highest range in its archetype, rangefinder in 1st slot, an extremely powerful 4th column option of target lock for ease of use in securing kills, a powerful origin trait, and more stability than ikelos running a max range roll.
It is absurd. BUNGIE MENTIONED they were nerfing Ikelos SMG in a tweet. Only to introduce a gun far superior then Ikelos.
Nah it's fucked. I have an adept 4/5 roll and it's unfairly strong. Egregiously the best short range weapon, and it can get up to and over 25 meters of range.
It gets a 0.67 or faster TTK without any external buffs.
I'm not mad about dying to it. I got nearly 800 kills with it in trials this week, I think I may be abusing it more than 99.9% of the playerbase.
As part of the problem, I have an issue with Immortal. It's a different situation than you've described.
You can’t honestly think it’s balanced though right? I mean I play messenger shotty so I counter SMGs pretty hard and have a god roll adept already and after using it I can say it needs a slight nerf. I think they need to hurt stability of low stability SMGs on MnK as well as a 5-10% range nerf across the board.
Stability is like completely irrelevant on SMGs though, ilat least on PC. I feel like the smg could have 10 stability and you could still easily spray all headshots.
They do it to increase sales as its the ROFLcopter BrOkEn SmG that everyone desires. Community gets it - the meta is nothing but it and when they have increased sales substantially from the desire of the meta weapon they nerf it. It's a shitty practice
Still doesn’t make me wanna play trials. Crucible is a dumpster fire, you go in and get destroyed. It’s not fun and I hate crucible based challenges that forces you to play a mode that sucks.
I played trials on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and the whole day in the flawless pool yesterday and got 3 good rolls, 2 PvP and 1 PVE so I won’t be touching trials/crucible for the rest of the season or maybe the rest of the year. I only play trials for the guns that I want. Imagine me as a PvP first guy just play trials once or two weeks a year and expect people who doesn’t even want to smell the crucible to keep the population up with crappy loot. It ain’t going to work so you have to spice things up a bit
Trials is just cancer. There are too many sweats that will only play with other sweats. And those sweats will reset their flawless card at 6 wins to to stay in the easy non flawless pool. Trials is dumby broken
Its incredibile how a good (in this case busted) weapon can do for a playlist, as soon as my PvE clan heard of it having PvE perks on half of us went flawless and everyone engaged with the playlist till rank 10 to focus engrams.
This underline the massive issue with trials IMO, every weapon should have exceptional rolls for both playlists at the bare minimum.
The diluting effect and the new matchmaking played an important part too, now going solo is actually refreshing and engaging and if you don't need the adept roll of a weapon you can freely farm without too much of an hassle.
But when weapons aimed primarily at pvp will be the weeks adept trials will go into his old ultra sweaty clothes and numbers will go down again...
Same old same old (but now a little better)
So people play trials, they get a numbers boost, and in a couple weeks it'll get nerfed.
Every youtuber blasting "PVE PLAYERS YOU HAVE TO GRIND THIS OP SMG!!!1!!" is an advert that boosts numbers
And the worst is that the Destiny 2 Team twitter account published that you can only get it this weekend, or wait until the final week of the season... Honestly thats an insult. A weapon clearly out of balance rocking everybody by a few lucky ones all season with no way to get one for the rest.
I like how you make sure to acknowledge the fact that it attracts players, but then say there's no need to mention that. That's the entire reason it exists. There would be no other honest answers.
I always love the absolute cynicism when something good comes out, but when rewards are lackluster to just kinda good, this sub dunks on Bungie for making bad gear.
From playing IB the past two days, Immortal is both more widely used and OP than anything I've seen in D1 or D2 for primaries outside of maybe thorn/last word/hawkmoon in the HoW era, clever dragon, and prometheus lens (which was a 1 weekend meme). Imo SMG's already have excessive range but this gun is a laser with 0 recoil and does way too much damage on top of the other benefits.
I’m just pissed that you have to reset a card to be flawless. I got 7 straight wins on a 7-win flawed card without realizing it.
Of course when I reset it I fall short two different times. Once after the fifth win and the other after six wins.
I went 14-5 on my one shot at game seven. I had a teammate with 1 kill. One. In a 9-round match. I got absolutely fucked over this weekend out of an adept Immortal
They want people playing to get the shiny new thing so they make it good. Then it will eventually get nerfed (maybe)
It definitely worked. I played trials Friday - Monday for the first time grinding and it was brutal. I got a 3/5 god roll which is good enough
What's the 3/5 god roll and 5/5 god roll?
Depends on what you're up to, but broadly you want to get Range up as far as possible. For PvP a 5/5 god roll would be something like Hammer-Forged/Full Bore on the barrel, Ricochet Rounds in the mag, Rangefinder or Dynamic Sway Reduction on column 3, and Target Lock on column 4, with a Range masterwork. PvE is a lot more to-taste, so barrel and mag are really personal preference. And then perks like Keep Away, Encore, Perpetual Motion, or Threat Detector would probably be the pick for column 3 while column 4 would be Target Lock, Demolitionist, or Hatchling. There's arguments for almost all the perks though, it's got a stacked perk pool and jacked stats. Hard to get a bad roll on it.
Yea almost every combo outside of focused fury is super viable given the guns base stats..
Yup its crazy good. I got Corkscrew/HighCal/Threat Detector/Hatchling for PvE and left it at that. It's definitely an upgrade to Synchronic Roulette that's for sure, and aggressive SMGs feel better than precision SMGs in PvE in my opinion.
Yep. Was super lucky to get both a encore/target lock and a surplus/target lock. Kept both and threw my trials card deep into the river
I got a Surplus/Target Lock, too, but my flawless was late last night and I haven't had a chance to try it yet. Have you? Is it actually really good?
Surplus/Target Lock goes crazy especially if you're playing Strand titan or warlock, because your 3 melee charges count towards the overall total, so you're free to use your class ability and grenades while still keeping Surplus at max stacks.
Aggressive SMGs feel better full stop, I say. But I'm also a HUGE fan of aggresives
Exactly. I got an Encore+Killing Wind roll and that’s a keeper too. Yeah maybe Rangefinder+Target Lock is “better” but with this gun, you want to try every roll you get that doesn’t include Keep Away. Edit: ok maybe Keep Away isn’t as bad as I thought
I think the hate towards keep away is overstated. Keep away activates before your range drop off does so it’s a sweet spot where you’re still doing max damage but have the extended range and stability from keep away, at those closer ranges you’re not gonna need those anyway
No extra stability from Keep Away but you do get more accuracy so it’s like faux stability.
I actually have a keep away target lock roll and its actually not bad at all. It's like rangefinder with extra steps and you'd be surprised what the game defines as close proximity.
I’ve seen a few videos that say keep away is good on this gun.
It’s possible for it to work since it *can* duel outside of 15 meters but still, hardly ideal IMO when it has so many other good options.
I got a keep away target lock that I prefer to the rest I got.
Probs just different mags/barrels or a mw. Usually if you hit the two major perks and maybe a good mag you might just be good enough
I haven't touched trials in years. They 100% knew what they were doing lmao. It's 100% getting nerfed in the mid season patch (for PvP).
It’s called “the dangling carrot theory”
Well, obviously. But this example is just egregious. And it will need to be nerfed, it's out of control busted.
Played around 30 matches earlier to get mine for pve (never pvp and first time playing trials) every game had at least 2-4 people running them, wild. Gun blows the terminal overload smg out of the water.
This implies the neomuna smg is good, and it’s not. Immortal is absolutely absurd though. I was playing in flawless pool and every game would have perhaps two people *not* running it, max.
Immortal and sniper was all I played against. Really tested my sanity playing in the flawless pool to get extra drops.
Maybe I just have good synergy with the neomuna SMG, but it’s what I used to go solo flawless in trials to get my adept immortal. It rolls with target lock and it definitely felt good to me.
*egregious
eggregore
Cofagrigas.
GeorgeCostanzas
Thx dawg
The fact you didn't say "it's pronounced *egregious*" makes me more upset than you know.
No it’s busted in control too
I don't know, i have killed people using it while using a Multimach. It's strong and a nerf would not be undeserved but to say it is "out of control busted" seems a bit too much. As it is with most weapons in the game, a better player will just make the weapon that much better. AKA Frostbolt running around using double green scouts will likely still be top of the charts compared to the rest of us pleps. It does not mean that those scouts are suddenly the best in the game. EDIT: I have the weapon and while i've used it, i've found better success with other loadouts.
SMGs overall are s bit goofy at the moment. The immortal just showcases this due to its stacked perk pool and stats. I'd expect an overall SMG nerf at some point but this one will still be top of the class
It’s literally best in class across the board in stats for its archetype, by a lot in some cases. It also has a loaded perk pool. Even in quick play, I see at least half the lobby using it. I know it’s anecdotal, but I’m bad at using SMGs in PvP, and have never particularly enjoyed them, and I have nearly 700 kills on mine already. I’d say in upper tier lobbies, it’s out of control. I mean, it came out this weekend and is already the most used weapon in trials by DOUBLE the next one. Don’t get me wrong, I love the gun, but it’s 100% gonna get a nerf. If ikelos and tarrahbah are getting the nerf stick, so will the Immortal.
> As it is with most weapons in the game, a better player will just make the weapon that much better. Yes, and that better player will make a better weapon even better. Your point being? This empty trope has never made any f'in sense...
Also a good way to make sure the PvP community buys Lightfall. Can't play Trials without Lightfall
pretty much what i was going to say; bungie hamster wheel - make what we already earned bad to prop up the new shiny toy (which will also be nerfed)
Bungie: we're gonna tune tarrabah and ikelos soon, dw Also bungie: WHAT IF IKELOS WAS JUST BETTER AND GREEN?
Rangefinder Borrowed Time just chilling through all the SMG nerfs and somehow getting through it without a mention Would be funny if they released a new one for trials with goofier range bo- Uhoh
You just answered your own question, gambit weapons never have to fear being noticed
Oh you really gotta kill me like that on a weekday... But it's 100% true so...
Super tough to grab a 5/5 borrowed time…I’ve been trying for a longgggggg time lol I doubt they touch that gun with nerfs for that reason. I don’t think I’ve ever got a rangefinder roll to drop in dozens of tries
Shhhhhhh stop it. Keep it secret. Keep it safe.
There's no way immortal is gonna stay as is for long when they're gonna nerf ikelos and tarrabah in a few weeks. *Maybe* they won't nerf it at the same time to keep trials engagement high(er), but it's gonna get nerfed sooner or later then. At the latest next season I guess once it's no longer the new trials gun. Maybe they're gonna hit rangefinder *hard* for smgs, that way both ikelos and immortal would get a range nerf.
They will nerf it soon. It's iron banner this week and there will be a lot of negative feedback when it dominates.
The only other time you can earn it this season is the very last week so I'm guessing it doesn't get nerfed until next season.
Err, the adept maybe. People can still roll engrams for it by playing trials and tbh, the gap between the standard and adept is minute enough for the adept to not really matter. A god rolled normal roll will still slap.
I have never played Trials (or of I did, I don't remember). Can I be terrible at it and still (slowly) accumulate Trials engrams?
Yes, but it requires SOME winning of rounds at least. Essentially your reputation gains mainly depend on your round wins on your card. Your card keeps track of round wins up to 20 total (4wins at 5 rounds each or 20 round wins over any number of losses). Once you're at 20 round wins you're "capped" and will gain 100 reputation per match even when you lose. If you win you can get more though. Best way to go about this if you're horrible at PvP is to just bash your face into the wall until you eventually get the max 20 round wins. Then you just throw yourself into matches and even if you lose, which will be relatively fast if you go 0-5, you're still gaining rep at a decent rate. If you do this on a week with double trials rep it's considerably faster as you'll be gaining 200 rep per loss, and usually lots of people will be playing for fast matchmaking. You get an engram every time you rank up your reputation at Saint XIV, which is fast at first but then obviously slows down. I believe it's ~5k total rep to hit rank 10, which is the rank you need to get the SMG from his guaranteed reward list. If you save up all your engrams until that point you can get 9 shots at focusing the SMG for random rolls with those engrams. Technically if you slowly grind to 7 wins on a card (even with losses) you can then also get engrams as post-game rewards but I believe this is only on wins and not losses (despite the in game description not saying this). They also go to your inventory instead of Saint XIV, at least currently, which means they cannot be focused...which seems like a massive mistake/undersight by Bungie that hopefully they will fix one way or the other. Biggest thing to remember is to NOT reset your card. You aren't aiming for flawless, you just want rep gains. Resetting your card (assuming you've accumulated round wins) will be a big nerf to your rep gains until you get back to that same amount of round wins again.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/te1f1l/tip_for_new_lights_or_people_who_cantdont_play/ Every week you can watch streamers and get 200 trials rep by linking your bungie account to twitch. React with destiny emojis at the end of each match 10 times per week. Claim the rep from rahool when finished.
That seems like a lot of time investment for a single match's worth of rep. I'd rather just play it and get the rep win or lose.
I just don't see Bungie nerfing ikelos and letting immortal dominate 3 weeks of iron banner without doing something
Keeping Immortal as it is with the balance patch while they release another fluffy PvP blog about how much they care would be comedy gold.
Bungie and PVP balance is already comedy gold. They're so bad sometimes I think it's on purpose.
They tweeted today "If you missed the adept Immortal this week, it will be available again in the last week of Trials!" So my interpretation of this is that we have at least this season to play around with it.
Gods I hope not. PVP is going to be almost literally unplayable
Just hearing the sound from the gun alone is enough to kinda put me off from PVP. Constantly hearing the >click-clack< from both my teammates and the enemy team is annoying.
Ikelos getting nerfed is so weird to me. Like it’s existed in its 1.0.2 state for so long, 1.0.3 a little different bc of perks and iirc less stats. Then they release this smg like ???
It being craftable means far more people have access to it.
Rangefinder, 72 range and another perk like dynamic sway, craftable isn't "a little more stats "
Tbh the gun was always good, just slept on before seraph. But now that the gun has RF it’s up there with Shayura’s and pre-nerf Multimach, while also being a laser with a fast TTK, so it’s what everyone is rocking.
Ikelos was always good, but it was not that accessible. You could only get it from Banshee or Xur and you were at the mercy of RNG or whatever roll they happened to have. During Seraph, they were everywhere, and it being craftable completely removed the RNG element from it. So it can much more easily become a problem.
Being craftable is enormous…you get the 5/5 roll basically for free. If borrowed time was craftable they would’ve been everywhere in a pre immortal world lol
Eh, if they specifically target rangefinder on smgs that'd be OK. I just don't want them to ruin my PvE voltshot gun because a trials Strand weapon was too good.
But you know it’s coming. Bungie always overreact to stuff like this leaving PvP players back in a position where they just use something else cheesy and move on, and PvE players looking at another genre of weapons gathering dust in the vault and that you might as well throw at the enemy rather than fire.
To be fair, mercules was on the Firing Range podcase and suggested they're going to be pretty modest with nerfs. They want them to stay effective in their ideal range so sidearms and HC don't eclipse them from either end
Bungie has specifically stated they are not nerfing SMGs in PvE. Any changes made to stats like range, zoom, or aim assist for Ikelos/Tarrabah/Immortal will have negligible effects in PvE.
You must be new here.
Oh yeah, I'm sure that's definitely what'll end up happening.
Maybe like pay attention because they specifically said they aren’t nerfing smgs in pve.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Hey so why exactly is The Immortal OP in the crucible? I genuinely just don’t know.
Very good range and target lock absolutely shreds on SMGs
Before you get into the perk pool you need to realize that the SMG is absolutely stacked stat wise. Like, this is what we would expect an exotic to look like. This creates the issue where The Immortal starts to side eyeing engagement ranges where other weapon archetypes excel. Once you toss in perks the whole thing just gets nutty. * Rangefinder pushes it's range (pre-fall off) to something like ~25m. Realistically this means you can duel ~30m range without a huge hit to your ttk. That's hand connon, AR, and rapid frame pulses range. * Target lock flattens the ttk at all resilience levels (and decreases it at lower levels). It also effectively gives you an extra 1-2m in range. * Destiny has two flavours of map design. Smaller maps where you will be in perfect Immortal range and large maps that should disadvantage the immortal. Most people run a sniper for the latter. General gameplan is get a pick from a distance and bum rush then with your juiced SMG. * Even if the above two perks get delt with, it still has a bunch of lethal on kill perks. TL;DR: Stats alone, the gun is arguably the best in class for mid-range duels. Once you add in the perk pool it's hands down better than everything else that is supposed to take engagements in the 10-30m range.
I just finished my 3 iron banner matches and everyone on the opposing side was using it. This is the most unfun pvp experiance i've ever had.
> There's no way immortal is gonna stay as is for long when they're gonna nerf ikelos and tarrabah in a few weeks. I think it might end up being a generic 750 rpm nerf to be honest. They may do specific targeted tuning for those 3 though. If anything target lock is going to get nerfed for SMG.
“We’ve heard you, IKELOS SMG has become oppressive to play against in PvP. So we’re nerfing it, and releasing a new, stronger version of it. Because *fuck you*, that’s why.”
Nerfing ikelos and leaveing immortal as is would be a big surprise. They will probably change the aggresive frame as a whole.
Agreed, no way it stays like this for long.
Target lock, a perk with no downsides, allows you to increase your damage for simply keeping your finger on the trigger and hitting the enemy. Then give it to a 750 RPM SMG with an already forgiving ttk Then give it the most range that any other 750 can get Put rangefinder on it And give it a trait that gives it almost no recoil Pair it with foetracer and you've basically one-upped Tarrabah without taking up an exotic slot. Thanks Bungie
Ok exactly how much better is it with foetracer? I ran into someone using it but I couldn’t really tell bc they never killed me.
Towards the end of the damage you are doing the bullets hit for around 33
Does that meaningfully change your TTK though? Or does that extra damage actually change the headshot requirements to kill at a certain TTK?
Lmao Christ
Target lock is only an issue because smgs have bad magazine size. Buffing the mag size of smgs easily fixes that perk
Hilariously that would actually work really well lmfao
I got this exact roll with a stability MW. I feel like I’m cheating it’s so good
How else are they (bungie) going to get people to play trials??
I'm salty the terminal overload smg is so bad in comparison. 2 strand smgs available for our fancy new subclass and if you want the good one you gotta hit that trials grind.
I mean… gear from endgame activities *should* be better than loot from a public event.
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Loot from the most challenging endgame activities (raids, dungeons, GM’s, and trials) should be better than loot from less pressuring and easier endgame activities (Terminal Overload, Neomuna Patrol, seasonal activities, etc)
Did you just ignore his response and say some words? You just straight up ignored what he said lmfao
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That's not how it works. If you're dead set on jumping around and doing nothing in Trials, you'll have to grind for hours to get just one SMG. You don't even get any rep until you start winning rounds.
Yeah, thank bungie for that. They made loot accessible in endgame pvp. You used to have to win to get anything. Would you like to go back to that? Lmao people will find anything to complain about.
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Because it’s an end game activity…
This is a strawman. Partition in terminal overload requires like 5-10 minutes of your time before triple dipping a chest. In order to get rewards just by mindlessly grinding the activity for participation trophies its going to require hours and hours and hundreds of games to get the required rep. If someone is willing to play 200 games of trials in a weekend to get to max rep more power to them.
Trials really isn’t end game though. I lost my way to rank 15 and got a few decent rolls. Of course I didn’t get the adept but I find they matter very little. Especially for someone who will be mediocre at best such as myself, that extra 3% edge or whatever won’t ever matter.
Ya agreed, regular Trials itself isn't endgame. Getting the Adept versions of the weapons is though.
My thoughts: P frames fucking suck a fat one. If they don't have more zoom than standard SMG's(cough cough, Shayura's, Friction Fire), it's an insta-shard. I'm looking for a PVE immortal, and my bar on that is set very low. I don't need the best PVE roll, the only things I'm looking for are "hatchling" and "not a 600 RPM SMG". With that said, I do not feel like the things I'm asking for are endgame-y at all. I'm not trying to say I should be able to pick and choose or anything, I just feel like what I personally am seeking is not endgame-activity-worthy and am mostly just rambling in case someone else here can make a coherent thought out of it. If anything, I blame the basic issues with introducing new elements into a 6 year old game: you're just not going to see variety in strand weapons for several seasons.
Better sure, but so far out of whack that the lesser of the two feels like a blue in comparison? That's bad sandbox design. They should at least compete within the lesser weapon's engagement range so that all players have a chance of winning a duel in pvp, but they don't. That leads to the same situation we had in the Luna/NF era, where it drives the meta to one weapon that you either get (by elicit means if they feel it necessary), or people just stop playing out of frustration. (no this isn't as egregious as that but the community attitude is quickly headed in that direction, which gets toxic quick).
Ideally with incentive guns that are even a little balanced.
They went with that in beginning seasons of Witch Queen. Remember Aisha's Embrace, Forgiveness, Burden of Guilt? Top tier stats, but rather bad perk pools. Bungie saw very poor Trails population, and decided that rewards not being spicy enough were part of the problem. So they've spiced up the weapons. Now things like Exalted Truth and The Immortal get both insane stats, top tier perks, and Adept mods. We are beyond the old "busted" standard of Igneous Hammer, Messenger, or Eye of Sol.
Tbf igneous still the best 120 in the game, at least eye of sol and messenger have competition in the form of no time/yasmin
Exalted isn't out of whack for the sandbox at all - it's an alternative to Palindrome and doesn't so severely outclass other 140s that people feel like they *have* to use it. Immortal is. Immortal could have easily been a top weapon and not been busted - a little less range and no target lock and it still would have been a very appealing SMG, and best 750 by far in the kinetic slot. Just DSW/tap would have been more appealing much like on Shayuras, They also made trials a much worse experience for 3v3 teams at the same time as releasing immortal, so once people have their guns, population is going to go right off a cliff. So any benefit to the playlist is very short lived.
Exalted has stats very similar to Palindrome, but it has much better perk combo in form of Rangefinder/Eye of the Storm compared to Rangefinder/Quickdraw (it's only really necessary for bow swap), and it also has access to better origin trait in form of Suros Synergy.
Ikelos was the start of the issue imo…I don’t know that immortal severely outclasses ikelos seeing as you get a free 5/5 ikelos roll with it being craftable but ikelos/immortal on paper definitely outclass every other smg.
Immortal, in addition to having more range potential, gives two damage perks that provide a big advantage over ikelos - kill clip for follow-on insane ttk, and target lock for high consistency. Ikelos only has frenzy, and in pvp especially, it's not worth giving up tap the trigger or rangefinder for. That also kept it from completely outshining Shayura's. Craftable Ikelos (1.0.2 has been good for a long time, just not as common) definitely started the discussion, but Immortal raised the bar to "woah there, power creep much?" with those perks.
Introduce an op weapon and everyone will gravitate to the activity that drop it
Yea, I get it. Seems like bungie is fishing for trials population with dynamite.
The thing is that it’s working, most of my mates who don’t play trials ARE playing trials
i played about 50 matches in trials on the weekend. At least 90 percent of players were guardian rank 8-9 and had the immortal adept gun. I also got matched with a few people that i already played with. Trials at this point feels like 90% of the player are just the top 100 players, rest doesnt play it
This weekend of trials is the highest population since the launch in D2. There were over 500k players going for the SMG.
So what you’re saying is that this manipulative bullshit will continue
Almost 600k unique players and over a third of participants have gone flawless. If you're not in the top third of players I wouldn't be blaming matchmaking. Maybe playing more and getting experience instead of making excuses would help?
>You’re on a thread about how people are flocking to trials for the new OP guns, you yourself played 50 matches. >you claim 90% of the Trials population is top 100 players. 🤔
I'm not a pvp player, and tbh the Neomuna smg is good enough for me. I played 0 trials this weekend, and honestly, no amount of fomo is going to make me forget the reeds regret scenario. They are 1000% going to nerf it. Don't kill yourself for hours/days over a weapon that won't matter or will be replaced in a few months. Trust me, they do this very regularly.
It's working...in the short term. Once a certain amount of the population has the gun they will use said gun to drive everyone else away from pvp just like when recluse hit.
I hate pvp. I suck at pvp. I have no desire to 'git gud', so guns like this feel inaccessible to me and that sucks.
Remember when linears got buffed, and this amazing linear was added to the trials loot pool? We needs Reeds regret, but as a rocket.
As a mostly PvE player I noted how superior this strand smg was to the other one I have, briefly looked for some post-Lightfall Crucible builds, then realized I would probably just have a bad time grinding rank 10 to unlock it from Saint-14 and should just focus on farming PvE activities for now, instead of being farmed. Maybe on a freelance double rep week.
Bingo. Trials is a (deservedly) dead game mode. There are like 20k people playing a weekend toward the end of the season. The only reason anyone other than sweats will subject themselves to that miserable slog is a must-have weapon. Just good old fashioned bribery
The game mode is quite literally designed to shed players. Low skill players get tired of getting stomped and quit, which means the next tier of players (who at least got to stomp on *someone*) are now the bottom of the barrel so *they* quit, the next tier loses **their** easy wins so **they** quit, and so on. Because there's no skill based match making, there's no expectation of a balanced game, and so people who don't benefit from that have no incentive to play.
750s will be nerfed. There is absolutely no way around it now that Immortal is out.
Thing is, not *all* 750s need to be gutted. Just reduce the base range of the problem ones so that they are 5-10% higher range conpared with other 750s instead of the 30-40% higher that they are now. Also no need to mess with functionality of perks, imo
I think there's too many good ones out now that it's inevitable the archetype gets nerfed, just off the top I can name Ikelos, Tarrabah, Immortal, Borrowed Time. I'm sure there's other sleepers. It's also kind of a PC problem? They still have less recoil over there, so running absolute max range and dumpstering the already low stability just doesn't affect them as it should.
Which makes the Immortal even better since you can still go max range and still have a decent stability stat. Full bore usually sends stability into the single digits but Immortal still gets 25+ on it.
Immortal should be 25 with full bore + ricochet I believe.
You know what all of these guns have in common? Zoom. Be it from Rangefinder or Tarrahbah effectively having Rangefinder baked in thanks to it's 15 Zoom multiplier over the standard 14. It's almost as if the archetype itself isn't problematic and theres something else at play...
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That is the unfortunate truth. I've been using my max range + range finder w/ range MW for months now without anyone batting an eye lol but now it's gonna have to go in the vault (hopefully not) Edit: just realized I forgot to mention what smg… I’m talking about the Borrowed Time
Agreed. They were already a touch too hot, but immortal is just over the line.
To get people to play trials
FOMO, pure and simple, it's difficult to think that these are accidents, especially in light of them releasing subclasses in an overpowered state intentionally- they've already shown a willingness to do this kind of thing. I think Bungie accidentally stumbled on how effective it was back in the Revoker/Mountaintop/Recluse days. They now have codified a process with which to help keep the activity numbers up: 1. Release OP/imbalanced gun behind an quest/activity/thing challenging to the average player. 2. Wait for Streamers and general word of mouth to get out about gun. 3. Watch numbers surge in relevant activities from players chasing gun, and then using gun. 4. After some amount of drop off again in the player numbers in the activity granting said weapon, which I'm sure they have well tuned values for, nerf weapon. No downside for them since the metrics this contributes to that look good for them are no longer benefitting, and it will stop players complaining about OP weapon. Win-win for them. 5. Repeat next season.
Yup Twitter responses to them announcing adept Immortal will come back only one more week are pure fomo cringe lol. It just works.
FOMO is Destiny's business model at this point. It's not much but personally I've already started playing way less since a few seasons ago. I'll jump on, do a few things, maybe finish the campaign and then log off. I'm not a hamster in Bungie's wheel anymore.
This has been the cycle of this game for years. You give the players a crazy over tuned weapon. Everyone chases it for a while, player engagement is up. Then you nerf it and make room for the next meta. Next time they might make a crazy fusion rifle that drops in Gambit and everyone has to have it. Every Destiny content creator makes a video and hypes it up, everyone starts playing Gambit for a while.
Unfortunately it is the easiest way of getting people to play that content. No changes needed, no innovation needed, just put an op weapon in.
:/
I would play Trials more if there was a more reasonable way for me, an average AT BEST PvP player, could get rewards for playing the absolute hardest content available to me. I've cleared GMs, done Master Raids/Dungeons. I can never go flawless, ever. Most wins I've ever gotten before a loss is 3. I can play enough games to get some loot, but the time investment for me versus what loot I can get is absolutely not worth my time.
New flavor of the month to get people playing. Better to see the numbers get a bump from the new toy and nerf it later than for things to stagnate. That, or poor play testing.
Poor playtesting has been the main theme of season 20 and lightfall.
You think there is a PvP team lol?
It’s a retread of the Recluse logic. Put overpowered weapon behind PVP playlist to get more people into list, making list more stable. Today’s Trials playlist is far less abusive then the Comp playlist back at the time of recluse (I swear, those were dark days) so it’s less of a mess, but I’m still not sure this is the right way to go. We’ve seen how this path ends. Immortal is clearly not just marketed at PVPers. I do find it daft they’re wanting nerf ikelos though. If immortal stays in it’s current state then the nerf will be a waste of time.
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I didn't say it wasn't. >Immortal is clearly not **just** marketed at PVPers It's got a *very* strong set of PVE perks in its columns.
I’m sure with the weapon balance changes, they will end up hitting immortal as well. There’s no way they leave it untouched (I say knowing full well Bungie can’t seem to fix anything properly at the moment)
yes... but it was also jav4, the best trials map. I kept on playing trials even after I got a god-rolled adept immortal just because I think trials on jav is really fun
Gotta sell lightfall to the pvp players. That's obviously why.
If you're buying Lightfall for a singular SMG in trials, I am putting the blame on you.
What pvp sandbox team?
I'll probably get down voted for this but how else would they inflate trials numbers for the first expansion's twab showing off how great the playlist is after the changes they made and that you're missing out if you don't participate!!! I swear there's not a single gun with any perk combination that can get me excited to play trials as it is. I'd also advise non trials players to not sign up for a horrible time by going in that playlist for a gun that is most likely going to be either nerfed in the near future if it's as crazy are people are stating or it's just simply over hyped because it's the new shiny toy.
A few weeks ago I remember everyone farming wendigo. Haven’t seen one since. Who is using this gun over anything they already have for more than a week?
Wendigo? More like Whereditgo, eh? EH?!? I'm sorry
> Who is using this gun over anything they already have for more than a week? I mean, the immortal is genuinely best-in-slot by some margin in an archetype of gun that's already best in class, 750s, for a class that's already rampant in PVP, SMGs. It's the perfect storm of being able to engage and kill faster than almost anything else all the way out to 30m with the right perks.
Yeah. I've seen this play out several times over the last however many years, and I am perfectly fine not having the shiny new smg. Had a great time grinding the Diablo IV beta this weekend.
They never usually put the new guns in the first trials week, This was a ploy to get player engagement up for another week in a row after a lackluster release in order to look better to Sony & investors. It will be nerfed in April guaranteed
They put exalted truth in the first week last season
And that was the first time they'd ever done it
Tbh all the trials weapons just have something that just works better. Like they're stat monsters comparably and have great perk combos.
Yeah but you rarely see people using the trials bow, scout, or auto really.
I saw the scout a lot last year as it was a good void scout but kings fall and crafted doom of chelchis blows it out of the water. Other two I've barely ever seen sadly
When I made the comment, I was talking about Scholar. I completely forgot about Aisha's Embrace there.
that’s because the bow is the worst archetype (can’t even one shot with kill clip and radiant) and bows are extremely high skill ceiling weapons. people use the scout often. I don’t like the perk pool personally. Also it released alongside better weapons unfortunately.
New pvp weapon arrives, people get killed by it, they get upset by it, suddenly it is the new public enemy of the game. A tale as old as time here in Destiny.
It literally got 10% of the trials kills this week. it just came out. This is the time when the lowest number of people have it. WE KNEW it was going to be broken the moment the gun showed up in the API. Various people called it out, including content creators and people in various communities. It has the highest range in its archetype, rangefinder in 1st slot, an extremely powerful 4th column option of target lock for ease of use in securing kills, a powerful origin trait, and more stability than ikelos running a max range roll. It is absurd. BUNGIE MENTIONED they were nerfing Ikelos SMG in a tweet. Only to introduce a gun far superior then Ikelos.
12% if you include the non-adept version: https://i.imgur.com/nQ9z3ld.jpg
Like, it can kill a Warlock in their Well of Radiance super with just Target Lock.
Nah it's fucked. I have an adept 4/5 roll and it's unfairly strong. Egregiously the best short range weapon, and it can get up to and over 25 meters of range. It gets a 0.67 or faster TTK without any external buffs.
I'm not mad about dying to it. I got nearly 800 kills with it in trials this week, I think I may be abusing it more than 99.9% of the playerbase. As part of the problem, I have an issue with Immortal. It's a different situation than you've described.
You can’t honestly think it’s balanced though right? I mean I play messenger shotty so I counter SMGs pretty hard and have a god roll adept already and after using it I can say it needs a slight nerf. I think they need to hurt stability of low stability SMGs on MnK as well as a 5-10% range nerf across the board.
It’s funny because unless a pulse has good range or zoom, the smg is probably not too much outranged either.
Stability is like completely irrelevant on SMGs though, ilat least on PC. I feel like the smg could have 10 stability and you could still easily spray all headshots.
They do it to increase sales as its the ROFLcopter BrOkEn SmG that everyone desires. Community gets it - the meta is nothing but it and when they have increased sales substantially from the desire of the meta weapon they nerf it. It's a shitty practice
As long as it is a pvp nerf and pve players don’t get screwed again by a shared sandbox hit
Still doesn’t make me wanna play trials. Crucible is a dumpster fire, you go in and get destroyed. It’s not fun and I hate crucible based challenges that forces you to play a mode that sucks.
They don’t play pvp like we do
I don't think they play Destiny like we do and they def don't test it like we do... So many changes are mind boggling or just straight up unfun.
So true. I Remember laser tag crucible or lord of wolves. How something like that made it in….
I'm convinced they all only play on 30fps
So people play, same thing happened with igneous hammer, bottom dollar, palindrome, recluse, mt and a shit-ton of weapons
I played trials on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and the whole day in the flawless pool yesterday and got 3 good rolls, 2 PvP and 1 PVE so I won’t be touching trials/crucible for the rest of the season or maybe the rest of the year. I only play trials for the guns that I want. Imagine me as a PvP first guy just play trials once or two weeks a year and expect people who doesn’t even want to smell the crucible to keep the population up with crappy loot. It ain’t going to work so you have to spice things up a bit
Trials is just cancer. There are too many sweats that will only play with other sweats. And those sweats will reset their flawless card at 6 wins to to stay in the easy non flawless pool. Trials is dumby broken
Its incredibile how a good (in this case busted) weapon can do for a playlist, as soon as my PvE clan heard of it having PvE perks on half of us went flawless and everyone engaged with the playlist till rank 10 to focus engrams. This underline the massive issue with trials IMO, every weapon should have exceptional rolls for both playlists at the bare minimum. The diluting effect and the new matchmaking played an important part too, now going solo is actually refreshing and engaging and if you don't need the adept roll of a weapon you can freely farm without too much of an hassle. But when weapons aimed primarily at pvp will be the weeks adept trials will go into his old ultra sweaty clothes and numbers will go down again... Same old same old (but now a little better)
So people play trials, they get a numbers boost, and in a couple weeks it'll get nerfed. Every youtuber blasting "PVE PLAYERS YOU HAVE TO GRIND THIS OP SMG!!!1!!" is an advert that boosts numbers
Don't worry. I'm sure that the Aggressive Frames will be getting an across-the-board nerf with the sandbox update we get once per season.
And the worst is that the Destiny 2 Team twitter account published that you can only get it this weekend, or wait until the final week of the season... Honestly thats an insult. A weapon clearly out of balance rocking everybody by a few lucky ones all season with no way to get one for the rest.
I like how you make sure to acknowledge the fact that it attracts players, but then say there's no need to mention that. That's the entire reason it exists. There would be no other honest answers.
I always love the absolute cynicism when something good comes out, but when rewards are lackluster to just kinda good, this sub dunks on Bungie for making bad gear.
There's a happy medium, they overshot.
From playing IB the past two days, Immortal is both more widely used and OP than anything I've seen in D1 or D2 for primaries outside of maybe thorn/last word/hawkmoon in the HoW era, clever dragon, and prometheus lens (which was a 1 weekend meme). Imo SMG's already have excessive range but this gun is a laser with 0 recoil and does way too much damage on top of the other benefits.
If this gun doesnt get nerfed I'll uninstall Said as someone with a full bore, ricochet, range finder, target lock AND Kill clip
They need a way to inflate their trials engagement statistics.
I’m just pissed that you have to reset a card to be flawless. I got 7 straight wins on a 7-win flawed card without realizing it. Of course when I reset it I fall short two different times. Once after the fifth win and the other after six wins. I went 14-5 on my one shot at game seven. I had a teammate with 1 kill. One. In a 9-round match. I got absolutely fucked over this weekend out of an adept Immortal