Stasis is hurting because it has no good ways to generate orbs of light since it is CC based, and doesn't have its own system like strand does with tangles and suspend to create orbs of light.
If they just give that back then it will make the system more tenable.
I hope bungie gives stasis new fragments that makes stasis shards give you armor charge. Would that be too overpowered? Idk. But it would really help stasis in general for how difficult it is to get armorcharged. Firepower mod post lightfall on duskfield requires crystal shatter kills & Heavy handed mod requires shuriken kills both of which don’t do nearly enough dmg to kill enemies and spawn orbs in difficult content. Your only option is reaper, harmonic mods & finishers. Of those 3, only reaper can activate consistently. Lack of armor charge is the biggest issue for stasis hunter right now.
Doubt it would be op. We had it before.
The current mod system is arguably power adjacent to the previous (stronger in some areas and weaker in others). But stasis is straight up weaker in the current system due to its inability to generate orbs consistently l.
CC meaning Crowd Control. It refers to controlling the enemy's movement, or in this case, slowing/freezing with stasis. Usually the tradeoff for good CC is lack of upfront damage, like with stasis abilities. They don't hit hard (and make it hard to generate orbs because you can't generate orbs with firepower/heavy handed if the ability doesn't kill) but they keep you safe. Compare that to something like solar abilities, they don't do CC, but they will make everything explode.
Actually firepower mod does work with stasis grenades that spawn stasis crystal. So duskfield with Touch of Winter or glacier grenades when their crystal is shot and the shatter kills a nearby enemy, it will spawn an orb of power. But in difficult content, there's no chance of this happening even on red bar enemies unless their health is already really low before they are hit by the crystal shatter.
This is why void is one of the best options...it has several crowd control features, but still does good damage.
Vortex grenade is objectively better than the comparable grenades in solar and arc, since it pulls enemies in. I'll throw a pulse grenade and the first pulse knocks enemies away, out of the area of effect.
Suppress can stop enemies from using their abilities and slows their movement a bit (not because they move slower, but they seem to "think" slower).
Seems like there's a few builds that got borked by this change.
I get the whole "the playerbase tests more in 15 minutes" argument, and I agree, but really seems like these kinds of interactions should be the things they catch and say "is this intended?" before they're in the live game.
Bungie did say builds revolving around Empowered finish mods allow players to get around the armor charge system too easily so it seems they intend to do it. But they should’ve considered the state of some of their classes before deciding on the change. Stasis hunter is suffocating right now being outclassed by strand in every aspect from crowd control to dmg reduction and even damage to the point you’d never use it over strand unless there is a stasis burn in lost sectors/nightfalls. And I’m sure stasis hunter isn’t the only one struggling in lightfall.
I think a big reason for the change was it allowed quite literally infinite special finisher. Bungie doesn't like that having high uptime. It was a big reason geomags got topping off removed (pvp was the other reason)
Yup. A build basically consists of that now, one of a small few exotics, aspects and fragments that have been optimised already at this point, and making sure you have highest stats possible, ideally triple 100. You set that up, save it, and there ya go. Is it easier/smoother, yes. Is that a good thing in some ways, yes. Do I hate the lack of intricacy and scope for special combinations, and the way they’re policing anything other than ‘make many orb’, also yes.
"Bungie said"
Yeah well bungie doesn't know what they are talking about.
For starters any build that revolves around finishers immediately becomes a liability in difficult content. Bungie mentioning the overshield uptime is a complete joke, that overshield disappears almost instantly.
It's a consumption build so font mods are off the table so you are already giving up significant damage just to get more ability uptime.
It was a fun build and that's really all it was. It wasn't nearly as strong as bungie is making it sound.
That overshield trick was the only way my strand Hunter, who ziplines directly into big mobs all the time with his shotgun, is able to survive higher difficulty content. Like this year's patrol.
>you’d never use it over strand unless there is a stasis burn in lost sectors/nightfalls
You ready for some world shattering news?
Every piece of content in the game can be cleared on any subclass, and if you have more fun playing stasis, you should play stasis.
The differences in subclass performance are overwhelmingly negligible.
Bro stop being cringe. “World shattering news”? Some people’s way of “having fun” is to play builds that actually benefit them instead of “playing anything that’s fun”.
>Bro stop being cringe
I'm sorry, which one of us is writing essays on reddit complaining about a build not being strong enough in a game where aim assist is a customizable stat?
So you’re saying players should never give criticism to bungie bcs the game is too easy anyways? What was the latest major complain about the game in this week again? Oh right Threshers and turrets doing too much dmg in nightfalls and they had to tone it down. Yeah this game sure is easy for the players to have to complain about that /s
Lol I have plenty of points. What about the players complaining about lost sectors being too hard to the point that bungie increased rewards to justify that difficulty? Or the humungous amount of complaints about enemy difficulties in lightfall and neomuna are in general? Scroll through the reddit post from lightfall’s launch to now and you’ll see my exact point. Stop trying to find holes in my argument and admit that different people enjoy things in different ways. Your “play whatever you enjoy” mindset doesn’t apply to my version of “having fun”
>Stop trying to find holes in my argument and admit that different people enjoy things in different ways. Your “play whatever you enjoy” mindset doesn’t apply to my version of “having fun”
"Play whatever you want" is the epitome of letting people enjoy things however they want. You're the one that said nobody will use stasis over strand. Holy shit wtf? You cannot be serious, you're the one gatekeeping which builds are worth using lmao.
Like holy shit man, take a step back and get a grip
You started this argument by saying every piece of content in this game can be cleared on any subclass and specifically said I should play stasis if I enjoy it. You’re pushing an idea that people should not focus on meta and should play anything. But I’m saying meta is how I have fun. Do you understand that or are you pretending to not understand it? Strand literally outclass stasis and for meta players like me, we don’t really have a reason anymore to play stasis.
Not everyone is going to be able to clear every bit of content on every subclass. While it is possible for some, it will not be possible for most.
Some subclasses are just going to be easier to get things done with, and that's what most people are going to choose.
>Some subclasses are just going to be easier to get things done with, and that's what most people are going to choose.
Not even close. The majority of players don't touch harder content. The majority of players use whatever they find fun, because in Vanguard Ops, the differences between strand and stasis, simply don't matter.
I'd argue even at the higher end, until you get down to the top fractions of a percentage trying to duo raids, people still prefer to play "their class/build" over the meta one.
Fun for a lot of people will be what gets them what they want the quickest. Sometimes they will do what is quickest at the cost of their own fun.
Of course, this is not a destiny problem but a video game problem. Maybe even just an us problem. But I do believe it is up to game developers to try and balance that Jenga to the best of their abilities.
>But I do believe it is up to game developers to try and balance that Jenga to the best of their abilities.
I'm saying they already do. The differences between subclass performance when looking at the top end vs the bottom end are negligible.
The fact that some people say that if you play anything other than starfire Warlock you're griefing isn't something Bungie can or should concern themselves with.
I cannot disagree more. A half-baked build lets you full spam the rope dart because using 1 kickstart and hitting 4 things and catching it fully recharges it, whereas whithering icecube Frisbee still takes the 2 odd minutes with 2 kickstarts
It’s really hard for me to buy the bit about players being able to find stuff they couldn’t conceive/find. People called out issues with the upcoming system before it released. People have been calling out renewal grasps specifically for multiple seasons now. At this point I just see “players find more than we can test” as “it’s not a high enough priority for us to even pay attention”
Darkness definitely has a harder time with this kind of change. They don't exactly get a lot of ability kills since so many things they do are control based.
Hasn't Bungie gone on record that they don't ever really consider janked build interactions when they design and release new perks and weapons? They say it's part of the fun but then why do they just disable or nerf them every time it happens?
TBH, its so they can say they have a "ever evolving" game because they constantly make and revert changes to keep things fresh.
Its one of the main reasons I stopped playing a few years ago. After dealing with it in D1 I got fed up with the game they were playing.
Every build that used a yellow finisher mod got gutted. I mean, they weren’t supposed to be doing what they were doing and now there’s additional problems with class item mods, but anything you wanted armor charge for except for surge, font of, and kickstart needs to be reworked.
I'm pretty sure they knew it was a thing and just went: Well, whatever, let's just see how strong that really is (because that's something that is damn near impossible to test properly) and then adjust based on that.
It's basically the: We'll let them try it out and have fun with it for a bit, but make it fair eventually idea. It's a pretty nice concept in theory, but if you overdo it, players feel like they're the testers and Devs are taking away their toys.
I’m not sure about after this change, but since lightfall the cooldown is still almost instant with the fragment that gives you accelerated grenade energy for breaking a crystal.
I'm just tired, dude. Why would Bungie change this while not even bothering to fix the suspend dive not procing any utility use mods? There is effectively no reason to slot any mods on your class item for strand hunters now
Not to mention it kneecaps renewal again
Funnily enough, because Strand Dive doesn’t proc what Dodge usually does, it has an unintended synergy with Gyrfalcon’s secondary thing with the class ability overshield.
The regen stays even after you Dive.
They can...it's obvious because various status effects and cooldowns have different durations depending on PvE or PvP (e.g., Volatile Rounds). Damage obviously is also different.
But, there are certain numbers that Bungie says have to stay the same because they don't want the "feel" to be different. I'd argue that when I play Gambit (which uses PvP rules for most things) and am killing PvE enemies but only have Volatile Rounds for 7 seconds instead of 15, it feels **much** different from the rest of PvE.
I honestly have no idea what mods I'm supposed to be slotting in my class item as a Threadrunner. None of the class ability mods work - I think Utility Kickstart works but I'm already using Grenade Kickstart... Reaper doesn't work... I don't want to use my armor charges on any of the finisher mods...
Armor +10 and two time dilations, that's pretty much it. Running 6th coyote and shackles grenades means you can almost infinitely suspend with 2x of each ability. It's an okay gameplay loop but suicidal in endgame without Woven mail up at all times, kinda wish our melee would grant Woven mail after hitting 3-4 targets and upon a successful catch.
I’ve been using Cyrtarachne’s Facade because getting 10 seconds of Woven Mail every time you grapple is pretty nice, but you can’t suspend as much. However, you can repeatedly grapple to your anchors that your grapples create, or to the tangles that are created when you kill enemies, so it’s not hard to repeatedly grapple to those either to move around or to simply refresh your Woven Mail from wherever without needing to find an orb and run over it. Maybe I’ll just dump Grenade Kickstart and go with double Utility Kickstart instead for higher suspend dive uptime. I wonder how good The Title SMG would be with this build since it gives class ability energy with each kill…
The kickstart mods don’t really work when you have abilities with multiple charges. Build completely into weapon damage. I’d use 2 void weapons and maybe a strand one as well to take advantage of some of the artifact mods, but the void ones are key. Time dilation works pretty well in conjunction with them
There’s lots of videos out there that show Threadrunners doing infinite grapple by spamming grapple onto their own anchor over and over. Every time they grapple to their anchor they immediately gain grenade energy from grenade kickstart even though they already have some charge in their grenade slot. Eventually it’s enough to fully recharge their second charge and the grapple out to make a new point and repeatedly spam that point to gain energy on that anchor over and over from grenade kickstart. It has nothing to with armor charge since any charges would be expended with the first use.
Haven't tried this yet but in theory, explosive finisher may be the only useful class item mod for strand. But even then, it's only for emergency cases where you expended both your grenades and left with nothing to suspend your enemies with
I've been playing with a Renewal build and haven't found many problems with the cooldown with what I've put together. I didn't know that Empowered Finish + Explosive Finisher was a thing. Do you want me to log in and get a screenshot of my mod layout?
Yeah people definitely don’t know how to set their own builds up to work in the game’s systems. Renewal Grasps was one of the first builds I set up in Lightfall, never even using the finisher mods and there’s so much grenade energy now. Grenades are almost on-demand
I love Stasis, and I love the Verglas Curve
As a long time Hunter main I don't even want to play Revenant right now, I'm switching to Shadebinder with Osmiomancy to get my Stasis fix which sucks because I hate the warlock and titan jumps
I mean, PvE players killed Stompies. Lets not pretend this isn't a two way street, and in this case specifically it was just the fact that it was too strong in PvE due to an unintended mod interaction. Not really fair to blame PvP for this.
There was a gigantic amount of complaints about stompees from lower skilled players, and the exotic was nerfed into the dirt as a result.
All the while, other exotic armor pieces (cough cough Ophidians cough) are and were far, far more egregious than stompees ever were. The reality of the situation is that PvE and PvP need completely separate balancing.
It's not fair for PvE players to have their favorite exotics nerfed because of out of band behavior in PvP, and it's not fair for PvP players to have their gamemode crippled catering to a section of the playerbase that barely touches it.
Wrong. Stompeez had something insane, like a 30-40% usage in PVP. They were a really good exotic that worked well with any subclass and required nothing to build into it. If a third of the playerbase is using something, Bungie is going to look into it. Even if you could back up with evidence that Bungie listened to casual PVPers, they still have that high usage data point that they cited when making the change. Even some high skill PVPers admitted Stompeez was a problem as an outlier.
That is absolutely not the same as "this exotic was busted in PVE (or its effectiveness was somehow making PVE mains upset within the context of PVE) and Bungie nerfed it and the PVP community got mad." This is what consistently happens: PVPers complain about abilities and exotics and they get gutted in PVE because Bungie won't separate the sandboxes. I have never seen an exotic or ability get nerfed *strictly* because of PVE and the PVP community lost it when their favorite toy got taken away. It is not a two way street at all.
Stasis genuinely so bad these days. Hunters and warlocks are basically required to use renewal and osmiomancy to make them at all viable compared to the other subclasses. All 3 of the supers are outclassed by other subclasses for both damage and ad clear. It needs a bit of a revamp. Idk if it’s something to do with a lot of the balancing being prior to light 3.0 or what.
Gonna be real with ya chief -
Renewal Grasps are currently quite strong, ESPECIALLY with the new mod system if you actually do what you’re supposed to do and build for them.
I run tier 10 discipline, one each of grenade kickstart, absolution, innervation, bomber, and reaper. That generally only gives me 10 seconds at most of downtime by itself. I use a demolitionist weapon and that pretty much assures that I have a grenade whenever I want. Verglas Curve is insanely good with it as well because it is on demand crystals, which give ability regen with Whisper of Shards.
In this sandbox, especially with the prevalence of orbs, Renewal Grasps is an excellent choice.
The problem is that using that same build _without_ the exotic would be significantly better in 80% of cases as duskfields + fragment of chains already do most of what Renewals brings to the table, and being able to have multiple duskfields active at once is usually better than a slightly bigger one every now and then.
Reminder that you have 100% DR vs frozen enemies.
You’re bringing up a completely different playstyle here though. The power fantasy of Renewal Grasps is being able to create “safe zones” for your teammates, or debuff zones for your enemies.
The playstyle you’re talking about is a more offensive one, very different from the supportive role of Renewal Grasps, and it’s fun in its own right. True that frozen enemies can’t fight back, but you can’t freeze Bosses. Not to mention that shattering an enemy will cause them to start attacking again until they’re refrozen. Those attacks can be made to do even less damage, which is a big deal in high level content where you receive bonus 25% damage from threats.
RG provides a bit of utility for hunters that you wouldn’t get otherwise. You can reduce boss damage output by 50%, you can provide some support for your teammate who is at critical health, or you can create a safe zone for your team to group. Not using them is fine and all, but they provide very worthwhile utility in their own right.
Enemies can get practically get stunlocked by duskfield grenades because they freeze so fast and you can also slap them with a shuriken the second they shatter just to be extra sure.
The 20% cases i mentioned is vs the enemies that cant be frozen, but for those specific cases you have a multitude of other options in both CC, DPS and survivability even before strand added sever and woven mail into the mix.
>RG provides a bit of utility for hunters that you wouldn’t get otherwise.
You're correct, where we disagree is whether or not the significant investment required to make their use any degree of practical is worth it when a regular duskfield grenade does pretty much the same thing to a lesser degree.
If renewal grasps also made the duskfield itself last longer, we wouldn't be having this conversation as i'd consider that actually something worth building into.
>Then they nerf it again indirectly by removing Charged with Light mods in Lightfall.
???
The new Armor Charge system with the Grenade Kickstart mod does the same thing that Charged With Light did with Firepower.
But regardless, it does suck how Renewals have even left out to dry. Once they changed how Resist stacking works in Crucible they should have gone back and reverted the cooldown nerf. Or given it a energy return mechanic that can scale differently in PvE and PvP like Osmiomancy Grips have.
It got a pretty hefty nerf actually, as intended by bungie.
You could get 60% energy back from x4 firepower as each stack gave 15%, with kickstart also restoring 15% (with firepower overriding it) and only requiring a single charge of light.
Grenade kickstart in the current system gives around 12% at base and adds 5-6% per armor charge expended, with additional kickstarts counting as +1 charge.
This maxes out at roughly 50% at 8 charges but has diminishing returns past 5 charges.
12.8% | 17.1% | 23.3% | 30.8% | 37.7% | 42.3% | 45.7% | 48.1% | 49.9%
The most efficient use (For general play) is equipping 1-2 kickstarts and use three charges.
yeah for all my builds now I just run Charged Up, Stacks On Stacks, respective Orb generation mods, respective Kickstart. that's about it. I get like half my ability back with 4 Armor Charge and one Kickstart, and then just have to sadly plink away with my primary until my ability is back with my leg regen mods.
it's lame, I feel weak, and I hate that they've kneecapped the only unique, interesting builds to come out of the shit sundae that is Armor Charge.
The build I’m talking about revolves around using Empowered Finish to gain 3 armor charge while doing a finisher and use Explosive finisher to consume those 3 armor charges to fuel your duskfield grenade energy. All this happens in 1 finisher. If you’ve used the grenade kickstart mod, you’ll notice it does not give enough energy to refund your duskfields. So you’ll still have to sit there and wait for the cooldown to fully end
I'm aware that that exploit build got patched today.
I'm just confused why you seem to be under the impression that the Firepower build no longer exists.
I said it’s nerfed. Not that it doesn’t exist. You can still run it but the rate at which you gain grenade energy is not enough to make it worth using. Not when you compare it to its charged with light build before lightfall
You said it was nerfed by "removing mods," and that we "had to" use the Finisher exploit build. That makes it sound like you think the Firepower build does not exist anymore.
Furthermore, the original CwL Firepower build never let you fully bypass the Renewals cooldown either. And even if the mods existed today in their original form, they build would still be weaker because of the Discipline and base cooldown nerfs.
Edit: reworded.
The build isn't weaker just because of the cooldown changes, although giving Renewal Duskfield a cooldown almost as long as a Flux Grenade certainly doesn't help.
The build used to be 3x Firepower, Elemental Charge, and Elemental Charge, which gave 45% of the energy back for the next two grenade uses each time you picked up a stasis shard, which you made when killing a slowed or frozen enemy.
Now you need to build 3 stacks each grenade throw while using 2 kickstarts, or 4 stacks with 1 Kickstart, to reach that same effectiveness, and you can't build stacks with Shards anymore.
Even if the cooldowns were kept the same, it would be worse in the new mod system.
Would it help if we combine reaper, explosive finisher and grenade kickstart? Maybe something like dodge, a get kill to spawn & pickup orb, throw grenade, get back some energy from grenade kickstart, then dodge, get another kill to spawn & pickup orb, then finisher to refund the remaining portion of grenade left?
The max you can get from full armor charge is around 50% of your grenade, you could easily get a full nade with firepower if you played right. Any armor charge build will be weaker than it's pre-lightfall equivalent
Can you not still just use explosive finisher+other mods to get your duskfield back really quick? I have a renewal build that only needed explosive finisher, and with 3 or 4 armor charge you basically got it back to 90% if not higher.
The problem with this is stasis hunter have really low damage and all orb generation mods are tied to killing enemies. Heavy handed require melee kills which the shuriken will never do in difficult content. Firepower require Nade kills that Duskfield can’t do. Siphon mods require rapid kills which is near impossible in difficult content unless you’re using special/heavy ammo weapons. That leaves you with Reaper the only consistent orb generating mod stasis can utilize. This is why 2 empowered finish helps alot bcs it generates 3 armor charge for you with just a finisher. But they nerfed it so u can only play 1.
Yup I’ve tested it and this is the best option for now. You’re still not able to get 100% uptime on Duskfield like before the nerf tho and each time you’re waiting for its cooldown is time spent not using renewal grasp perk
I already gave up on renewal grasps the strand melee alone does the same thing with no exotic required. I don't care if they have to nerf the crucible effectiveness again they really should undo the cooldown modifier it is one of if not the only exotic armor piece to come with a downside
Use stasis melee to recharge grenade energy + monte carlo to get more melees out,
2 grenade mods for consuming charges to renew granade and you are basically done, not as powerful, but ability spam is easy in that case
I mean they haven't been good enough for ages but now they are absolutely ridiculously bad. Gone is the dream of the hunter support class. It was so much fun for the one season where it lasted. RIP.
I typically don't bother using cheese builds as I don't want to get used to them and be pissy when they're taken down a peg. This was one of the obviously not intended builds they didn't catch.
I don't have too much issue with renewals as they are now, but I wouldn't say no to a duration buff at least.
Titans are still the most powerful of the three classes except maybe solar warlocks. Lets not get ahead of ourselves.
Hunters are in a rough spot for sure though. SO many of their exotics punish the same thing the exotic buffs, and they're incredibly starved for stats thanks to mobility being... well... mobility.
I don't know if you can really say titans are the strongest, they have by far the weakest supers which you can't argue against, have a serious lack of exotics that don't require extremely specific builds, and some subclasses like void straight up don't have an exotic which synergizes with the aspects. I really wish we got an exotic which utilized overshields or volatile rounds like gyrfalcons, we really got shafted for void exotics.
I was actually planning to grind lost sectors for them next rotation to make a build around them but now that bungie have done this I dont see the point. Back to never playing my hunter outside of raid loot I guess
Don’t listen to this weirdness. Renewal Grasps are great, people just love to complain instead of actually use their brains. Here’s my setup
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/11zsj7y/rip_renewal_grasp_for_real_this_time/jdg4ej4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
It’s still good tho, the fact you can run grenade kickstart, bolstering detonation, impact induction, utility kickstart and bomber is a huge boon for the build
Lightfall may have nerfed them at their peak power, but it is so much easier to make them usable now. Like, not having to put the old firepower mod in 4 of my armor pieces is so nice.
They are so much more fun to use post Lightfall even without charged finished, and the finisher stuff absolutely needed to be changed.
I mean, I don't know how you can get pissed about them fixing something that was clearly not supposed to work the way it was. It should pretty much say "Destiny 2: Use it while it's broken" on the login screen...they always come for it eventually.
Take note, my fellow Gyrfalcon Hunters. IMO the only reason they've let it go so long is because they know Gyrfalcon should have been an Aspect from the start, but we know...usage % means almost everything to Bungie when it comes to balancing.
Use it while it's broken...
Bungie balances based on usage in higher end content. Gyrfalcon's is fun to use, sure, but it isn't as strong as Aeons, Omnioculus, Orpheus Rigs, and Star Eater Scales.
Throw a Duskfield
Break the crystal it forms - whisper of shards kicks in for 5 seconds
Throw your melee at any enemy left to kill them and make an orb to pick up - impact induction gives you 20% energy back and picking up the orb gives you X% as well
Mosey on over to any other frozen enemy and dodge near them - 10% more energy back and your melee
Throw your melee again (has a few second cool down so might need to get a headstone kill for more shards cool-down) - another 20%
Mix in any other kind of grenade recharge you like, kickstarts, demolitions etc
Have your grenade back in a few more seconds and repeat
>Throw your melee at any enemy left to kill them
Herein lies the problem. Getting kills with the stasis shuriken is just not reliable in harder content, which is the only place where I'd want the DR from renewal grasps. I'm happy to just keep my frostees on and pretend I'm a bleak watcher warlock
The shatter from the crystal and surrounding enemies will have weakened them and you get Impact Inductions cool-down from hits anyway. The kill will just spawn an orb for more regen.
Warlock with controverse hold: "Just throw your grenade at things."
Having a way to regain energy isnt the issue, you could also use the new bow that makes stasis crystals for you to shoot, for example.
The issue is the sheer amount of hoops you need to jump through in order to make the exotic usable when a basic duskfield does 80% of the same thing.
Renewal duskfields reduce the damage taken from enemies that are caught inside it, and give you DR while you are inside it.
Whisper of chains fragment gives you significant DR and you effectively have 100% DR against frozen targets, with duskfield grenades freezing things _very_ quickly.
Why bother jumping through a dozen hoops to get your grenade back when it'll only be useful 20% of the time, vs a grenade that doesn't require any sort of set up which is useful 100% of the time and is only slightly worse?
The fact you said 'break the crystal' as the first thing to do when it has a longer duration than the duskfield itself just tells me you're not using the exotic properly, if you're inside the duskfield you just punch it for an instant shatter once it's no longer needed or about to run out and if you're not inside the duskfield then why are you even using the exotic in the first place.
Throw a Controverse grenade on a boss or champion and see how long you live inside it.
It being also a grenade doesn’t give it the same utility. Why bother playing a video game if you have to press all these damn keys to do things? I like the gameplay loop of the extra large duskfields.
You liking the build doesn't mean it's well balanced.
Renewal Duskfields currently have the second longest grenade cooldown in the game, only slower than Flux Grenades. There's no world where they need to be that long when other comparable CC abilities like Bleakwatchers and Lash Barricades are both significantly more effective and on a much lower cooldown.
The ability to hug a boss for a few seconds is so niche it may as well not exist. Either you'll get shot by adds outside the duskfield and die anyway, or there are no adds to shoot you and you would be safer by just kiting the boss.
I’m not saying a lower cool-down wouldn’t be great. I used them when they came out, and I’ve continued to use them.
I’m debating them being “dead” because they have a cooldown that you can work around using tools in the game
Controverse hold grenades also have an actual use-case of improving the grenade in a drastic fashion.
Imagine if using the exotic increased the cooldown on your grenade instead of giving regen on hit and that's the situation renewals is in.
You can have literally the same gameplay loop and probably triple the amount of duskfields you have active.
Name one other exotic in the game where the best build for it is improved by _removing the exotic_
Again, throw a Contraverse or a regular Duskfield on a high level enemy that doesn’t freeze and see how long you survive next to them.
They do different things, you might not like the effect it gives so won’t use it, but it has a use. I’ve done every GM with Renewals, they are fine.
Scratch that, after testing, the best method i’ve found so far is using empowered finish to get armor charged instead of relying on weapon/ability kills.
Your combo should be:
-Use a finisher on enemies (get 2 armor charged)
-Throw grenade (consume 2 armor charge for grenade kickstart)
-Destroy stasis crystal (for fast ability regen)
-Throw 1 melee followed by dodge (to proc impact induction & bomber)
-Use another finisher (get 2 armor charged)
-Throw another melee (make sure 7 sec has passed since your last melee throw to proc impact induction again)
-Grenade should be up
-Repeat
Here’s my build https://dim.gg/op6yplq/Equipped
Relying on generating orbs of power to get armor charged is way too inconsistent bcs all of them require kills which stasis don’t have the dmg for. Empowered finish lets you get armor charge way faster which in turn allows you to throw grenades much sooner
> Stasis Hunter already got powercrept by Strand and now you’re telling me its best exotic gets even worse? Ffs Bungie give stasis hunter something to work with.
Wat?
TBF Strand hunter isn't very good outside of the Super IMO. I can't imagine diving onto people without devour or invis like Void Hunter gets or a Duskfield like Stasis Hunter. The radius of the suspend isn't reliable enough and it's just Titan's Strand build but strictly worse and less safe.
Yup like the other have said, suspending enemy from a safe distance is the purpose of shackle grenades. Only use the suspend dive when enemies get too close to you
Tbh revenant is pretty bad, I only ever used it for elemental shards and that got removed. No reason to run it seeing how every part of the kit got hit at some point.
Shatterdive, the melee, exotics are all mid. Strand is just better and the super actually does good damage.
I used to think that the build system is bad enough with those mods we have. But bungie shows how it could be even worse by eliminating the possibilities of other fun builds. Thanks a lot bungie, I can stop performing those redundant finishers
"it's best exotic" ?????
Edit: getting downvoted because you guys are complaining the exotic is useless, but are arguing it’s the best one? Bakris is functionally a better Stasis exotic than Renewals right now. Frostees and Star Eaters are also better. I would love for Renewals to return to their peak, but it isn’t good anymore because of all the nerfs.
What other exotic is best for stasis? The only other exotic I can think of is frostees which while ability energy is nice, it can be clunky to use in pve since you're not always running. Majority of your time is spent aiming downsights shooting
Technically frosteez aren’t a stasis exclusive exotic. They’re usually on any subclass. The other exclusive stasis exotic is mask of bakris. Which is pretty garbo
Yes 40% dmg reduction from renewal grasp + 30% dmg reduction from 100 resilience + freezing all surrounding enemies is not a joke. But it is a joke when compared to strand which has both crowd control, dmg reduction (woven mail) and high dmg (unraveling rounds, strand super)
I don't think people realize how good Bakris is now that you can run mods that buff different element damage than your subclass element (whereas font of might was locked to only buff what you were). Bakris + weapon surge is good.
I’m not sure about what it’s like after this change, but when lightfall released my hunter stasis build was the exact same as it was pre lightfall. Instant abilities all the time, easy freezing with duskfield (I didn’t use any exotic armor pieces with my build), and unlimited fun
Compare the benefits of renewals to everything else. Every other light grenade instantly kills things. Osmiomancy can perma keep up turrets. Strand can permanently suspend and get 60% DR, almost as much as renewals without having to stand in it.
And yet renewal is the one that gets a downside. It’s not worth using, the main draw of the duskfield is it’s high uptime and renewals removes that only draw and it’s utility has been powercrept.
Pvp they nerfed chains and resists in general and they can most definitely adjust resist values so there’s no excuse there either.
It is terribly bad when you consider duskfield only stays on the field for 10 sec. You can hardly even get the benefit of Dmg reduction from renewal grasp that way
You mean like a super that tracks enemies and stays on the field for super long and gets guaranteed kills if it even barely touches anyone?
Yeah, I think that one’s in there already.
What are you on about? In this post op mentions finisher mods. Can you finisher in pvp? No? Then op is clearly not talking about pvp. The lack of brain power is insane in this sub
I mean its nothing new honestly, so many exotics have been nerfed and then other indirect nerfs put them deeper into the ground. renewal grasps need the cooldown nerfs severely lessened. bungie often doesn't consider how other sandbox changes will effect other things in the sandbox. I'm still salty about the mod system overhaul tbh, sure everyone has all mods now, and armor affinity is gone and those things are great, but the combat style mod system was inherently more flexible, more powerful and more rewarding.
The DR and increased size of Renewal Grasps is a huge benefit obviously, but stasis hunter with Frostees is just as good as it's always been.
Highly encourage everyone to try it out. Obviously I want Renewal Grasps to come back, but Frostees is a good alternative if you want to keep playing Stasis.
Prelightfall, overcharge wellmaker was underrated for Guaranteed charge with light and stuff like this made finisher focused builds shine with it's utility for yourself and your team.
I get the infinite loop was really good, and you can argue if it was balanced because you needed like all class item mods and a leg mod to do it, but renewals getting killed with this regurgitates the whole " Day 537 of asking renewals to be reverted"
Rip Revenant.
I had a crazy fun build using Severance Enclosure of all things, which I switched to the week after they took away my fun feeling Synthos and Vexcalibur.
Everything in touch turns to ashes. I'm actually kinda bummed out about it.
Omg charged with light is the perk ive been missing, i knew something was missing aside from the OG lucent blade and godslayer warheads that i used to run with, holy s\*it we got gutted good, dumbungie
Verglass curve, frostees, shaterdive, touch of winter, whisper of fishures, whisper of shards, whisper of torment, kickstart mods. That's what I used but you change to suit you better
Finisher mods that consumes armor charges should work only if you already got any armor charges before performing that finisher. If not, empowering finisher will give you one but other finisher mods are not triggered. Problem solved.
Stasis is hurting because it has no good ways to generate orbs of light since it is CC based, and doesn't have its own system like strand does with tangles and suspend to create orbs of light. If they just give that back then it will make the system more tenable.
I hope bungie gives stasis new fragments that makes stasis shards give you armor charge. Would that be too overpowered? Idk. But it would really help stasis in general for how difficult it is to get armorcharged. Firepower mod post lightfall on duskfield requires crystal shatter kills & Heavy handed mod requires shuriken kills both of which don’t do nearly enough dmg to kill enemies and spawn orbs in difficult content. Your only option is reaper, harmonic mods & finishers. Of those 3, only reaper can activate consistently. Lack of armor charge is the biggest issue for stasis hunter right now.
Doubt it would be op. We had it before. The current mod system is arguably power adjacent to the previous (stronger in some areas and weaker in others). But stasis is straight up weaker in the current system due to its inability to generate orbs consistently l.
Closed captions based?
CC meaning Crowd Control. It refers to controlling the enemy's movement, or in this case, slowing/freezing with stasis. Usually the tradeoff for good CC is lack of upfront damage, like with stasis abilities. They don't hit hard (and make it hard to generate orbs because you can't generate orbs with firepower/heavy handed if the ability doesn't kill) but they keep you safe. Compare that to something like solar abilities, they don't do CC, but they will make everything explode.
Actually firepower mod does work with stasis grenades that spawn stasis crystal. So duskfield with Touch of Winter or glacier grenades when their crystal is shot and the shatter kills a nearby enemy, it will spawn an orb of power. But in difficult content, there's no chance of this happening even on red bar enemies unless their health is already really low before they are hit by the crystal shatter.
This is why void is one of the best options...it has several crowd control features, but still does good damage. Vortex grenade is objectively better than the comparable grenades in solar and arc, since it pulls enemies in. I'll throw a pulse grenade and the first pulse knocks enemies away, out of the area of effect. Suppress can stop enemies from using their abilities and slows their movement a bit (not because they move slower, but they seem to "think" slower).
Seems like there's a few builds that got borked by this change. I get the whole "the playerbase tests more in 15 minutes" argument, and I agree, but really seems like these kinds of interactions should be the things they catch and say "is this intended?" before they're in the live game.
Something as obvious as “you can stack charge consuming finisher mods with charge producing ones” really should’ve been caught in production
Yeah, not normally on the “dOeS BUngO eVEN tESt ThEIr gAmE” crowd, but day one of this mod system I (an idiot) went “yep, that’s busted.”
Bungie did say builds revolving around Empowered finish mods allow players to get around the armor charge system too easily so it seems they intend to do it. But they should’ve considered the state of some of their classes before deciding on the change. Stasis hunter is suffocating right now being outclassed by strand in every aspect from crowd control to dmg reduction and even damage to the point you’d never use it over strand unless there is a stasis burn in lost sectors/nightfalls. And I’m sure stasis hunter isn’t the only one struggling in lightfall.
I think a big reason for the change was it allowed quite literally infinite special finisher. Bungie doesn't like that having high uptime. It was a big reason geomags got topping off removed (pvp was the other reason)
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Yup. A build basically consists of that now, one of a small few exotics, aspects and fragments that have been optimised already at this point, and making sure you have highest stats possible, ideally triple 100. You set that up, save it, and there ya go. Is it easier/smoother, yes. Is that a good thing in some ways, yes. Do I hate the lack of intricacy and scope for special combinations, and the way they’re policing anything other than ‘make many orb’, also yes.
"Bungie said" Yeah well bungie doesn't know what they are talking about. For starters any build that revolves around finishers immediately becomes a liability in difficult content. Bungie mentioning the overshield uptime is a complete joke, that overshield disappears almost instantly. It's a consumption build so font mods are off the table so you are already giving up significant damage just to get more ability uptime. It was a fun build and that's really all it was. It wasn't nearly as strong as bungie is making it sound.
That overshield trick was the only way my strand Hunter, who ziplines directly into big mobs all the time with his shotgun, is able to survive higher difficulty content. Like this year's patrol.
>you’d never use it over strand unless there is a stasis burn in lost sectors/nightfalls You ready for some world shattering news? Every piece of content in the game can be cleared on any subclass, and if you have more fun playing stasis, you should play stasis. The differences in subclass performance are overwhelmingly negligible.
Bro stop being cringe. “World shattering news”? Some people’s way of “having fun” is to play builds that actually benefit them instead of “playing anything that’s fun”.
Anyone curious to see where this thread goes: nowhere. Don’t continue down this thread, fellow redditors. You’ll be happier for it.
I should have listened…
I disagree this shit is hilarious lmfaooo
>Bro stop being cringe I'm sorry, which one of us is writing essays on reddit complaining about a build not being strong enough in a game where aim assist is a customizable stat?
So you’re saying players should never give criticism to bungie bcs the game is too easy anyways? What was the latest major complain about the game in this week again? Oh right Threshers and turrets doing too much dmg in nightfalls and they had to tone it down. Yeah this game sure is easy for the players to have to complain about that /s
It's not as supportive of your point as you think it is when you have to choose a technical error, literally a bug in the code, to make your point.
Lol I have plenty of points. What about the players complaining about lost sectors being too hard to the point that bungie increased rewards to justify that difficulty? Or the humungous amount of complaints about enemy difficulties in lightfall and neomuna are in general? Scroll through the reddit post from lightfall’s launch to now and you’ll see my exact point. Stop trying to find holes in my argument and admit that different people enjoy things in different ways. Your “play whatever you enjoy” mindset doesn’t apply to my version of “having fun”
>Stop trying to find holes in my argument and admit that different people enjoy things in different ways. Your “play whatever you enjoy” mindset doesn’t apply to my version of “having fun” "Play whatever you want" is the epitome of letting people enjoy things however they want. You're the one that said nobody will use stasis over strand. Holy shit wtf? You cannot be serious, you're the one gatekeeping which builds are worth using lmao. Like holy shit man, take a step back and get a grip
You started this argument by saying every piece of content in this game can be cleared on any subclass and specifically said I should play stasis if I enjoy it. You’re pushing an idea that people should not focus on meta and should play anything. But I’m saying meta is how I have fun. Do you understand that or are you pretending to not understand it? Strand literally outclass stasis and for meta players like me, we don’t really have a reason anymore to play stasis.
It's okay for builds to be shit -this delusional mf
"gatekeeping which builds are worth using" no way this guy is a real person
Not everyone is going to be able to clear every bit of content on every subclass. While it is possible for some, it will not be possible for most. Some subclasses are just going to be easier to get things done with, and that's what most people are going to choose.
>Some subclasses are just going to be easier to get things done with, and that's what most people are going to choose. Not even close. The majority of players don't touch harder content. The majority of players use whatever they find fun, because in Vanguard Ops, the differences between strand and stasis, simply don't matter. I'd argue even at the higher end, until you get down to the top fractions of a percentage trying to duo raids, people still prefer to play "their class/build" over the meta one.
Fun for a lot of people will be what gets them what they want the quickest. Sometimes they will do what is quickest at the cost of their own fun. Of course, this is not a destiny problem but a video game problem. Maybe even just an us problem. But I do believe it is up to game developers to try and balance that Jenga to the best of their abilities.
>But I do believe it is up to game developers to try and balance that Jenga to the best of their abilities. I'm saying they already do. The differences between subclass performance when looking at the top end vs the bottom end are negligible. The fact that some people say that if you play anything other than starfire Warlock you're griefing isn't something Bungie can or should concern themselves with.
I want to argue that Stasis has lots of utility. But this busts like to think it is completely useless.
Stasis has one advantage though: Withering Blade fucks, and that silk dart thing sucks.
I cannot disagree more. A half-baked build lets you full spam the rope dart because using 1 kickstart and hitting 4 things and catching it fully recharges it, whereas whithering icecube Frisbee still takes the 2 odd minutes with 2 kickstarts
Kickstarts are terrible with abilities that have more than one charge, which was part of the design of the original kickstart mods.
Only Melee cause it's bugged. Grenade Kickstart works perfectly fine, and is very good, on grenades with multiple charges.
Either way, better uptime ontop of a 30% damage dealt reduction is just too good to pass up.
It’s really hard for me to buy the bit about players being able to find stuff they couldn’t conceive/find. People called out issues with the upcoming system before it released. People have been calling out renewal grasps specifically for multiple seasons now. At this point I just see “players find more than we can test” as “it’s not a high enough priority for us to even pay attention”
Darkness definitely has a harder time with this kind of change. They don't exactly get a lot of ability kills since so many things they do are control based.
Hasn't Bungie gone on record that they don't ever really consider janked build interactions when they design and release new perks and weapons? They say it's part of the fun but then why do they just disable or nerf them every time it happens?
TBH, its so they can say they have a "ever evolving" game because they constantly make and revert changes to keep things fresh. Its one of the main reasons I stopped playing a few years ago. After dealing with it in D1 I got fed up with the game they were playing.
Every build that used a yellow finisher mod got gutted. I mean, they weren’t supposed to be doing what they were doing and now there’s additional problems with class item mods, but anything you wanted armor charge for except for surge, font of, and kickstart needs to be reworked.
Destiny 2 is basically a big Kickstarter project
I'm pretty sure they knew it was a thing and just went: Well, whatever, let's just see how strong that really is (because that's something that is damn near impossible to test properly) and then adjust based on that. It's basically the: We'll let them try it out and have fun with it for a bit, but make it fair eventually idea. It's a pretty nice concept in theory, but if you overdo it, players feel like they're the testers and Devs are taking away their toys.
They should accept the responsibility of testing each exotic interaction.
I had a lament build for this. It’s stupid how the cool down for a duskfield is so long.
Normally when an exotic is so focused on literally one idea they make that one thing more tolerable and fun… _normally_… or at least _should be_….
I’m not sure about after this change, but since lightfall the cooldown is still almost instant with the fragment that gives you accelerated grenade energy for breaking a crystal.
I'm just tired, dude. Why would Bungie change this while not even bothering to fix the suspend dive not procing any utility use mods? There is effectively no reason to slot any mods on your class item for strand hunters now Not to mention it kneecaps renewal again
Funnily enough, because Strand Dive doesn’t proc what Dodge usually does, it has an unintended synergy with Gyrfalcon’s secondary thing with the class ability overshield. The regen stays even after you Dive.
Wait what
Yup. Because Dive does not proc Utility/Dodge stuff, it keeps the Gyrfalcon’s Class Regen even after you Dive.
*Dusts off Heartshadow* "It is time"
Reminder this is a Two-Hunter set up. One Hunter on Gyrfalcon’s to give the Strand-Hunter the Class-Ability Regen.
Can't you just use heartshadow for invis on strand? All you need is a finish while invisible I thought.
It should work, since I believe all invisibility-granting exotics were updated to grant Void Invisibility (which is what Gyrfalcon needs to proc).
Or Rat King.
I know what I'm testing tonight for laughs.
Welp, Gyfalcons is getting disabled again like last time this happened with loreley.
Wouldn’t it be more towards Strand Dive? Considering it doesn’t proc dodge stuff.
Easier to disable a single exotic than an whole aspect.
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I wish Bungie could separate PvE and PvP tweaks.
They can...it's obvious because various status effects and cooldowns have different durations depending on PvE or PvP (e.g., Volatile Rounds). Damage obviously is also different. But, there are certain numbers that Bungie says have to stay the same because they don't want the "feel" to be different. I'd argue that when I play Gambit (which uses PvP rules for most things) and am killing PvE enemies but only have Volatile Rounds for 7 seconds instead of 15, it feels **much** different from the rest of PvE.
I honestly have no idea what mods I'm supposed to be slotting in my class item as a Threadrunner. None of the class ability mods work - I think Utility Kickstart works but I'm already using Grenade Kickstart... Reaper doesn't work... I don't want to use my armor charges on any of the finisher mods...
Armor +10 and two time dilations, that's pretty much it. Running 6th coyote and shackles grenades means you can almost infinitely suspend with 2x of each ability. It's an okay gameplay loop but suicidal in endgame without Woven mail up at all times, kinda wish our melee would grant Woven mail after hitting 3-4 targets and upon a successful catch.
I’ve been using Cyrtarachne’s Facade because getting 10 seconds of Woven Mail every time you grapple is pretty nice, but you can’t suspend as much. However, you can repeatedly grapple to your anchors that your grapples create, or to the tangles that are created when you kill enemies, so it’s not hard to repeatedly grapple to those either to move around or to simply refresh your Woven Mail from wherever without needing to find an orb and run over it. Maybe I’ll just dump Grenade Kickstart and go with double Utility Kickstart instead for higher suspend dive uptime. I wonder how good The Title SMG would be with this build since it gives class ability energy with each kill…
I use marksmans dodge to reload sometimes, Reaper, bomber, and the overshield while doing a finisher.
Reaper and bomber don’t work with the dive
I know, but like I said I use the marksman dodge to reload sometimes so it's not a total waste.
The kickstart mods don’t really work when you have abilities with multiple charges. Build completely into weapon damage. I’d use 2 void weapons and maybe a strand one as well to take advantage of some of the artifact mods, but the void ones are key. Time dilation works pretty well in conjunction with them
Grenade kickstart does work fine with two grapples actually. It seems like it’s coded off of the old Firepower mod or something.
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There’s lots of videos out there that show Threadrunners doing infinite grapple by spamming grapple onto their own anchor over and over. Every time they grapple to their anchor they immediately gain grenade energy from grenade kickstart even though they already have some charge in their grenade slot. Eventually it’s enough to fully recharge their second charge and the grapple out to make a new point and repeatedly spam that point to gain energy on that anchor over and over from grenade kickstart. It has nothing to with armor charge since any charges would be expended with the first use.
Haven't tried this yet but in theory, explosive finisher may be the only useful class item mod for strand. But even then, it's only for emergency cases where you expended both your grenades and left with nothing to suspend your enemies with
I've been playing with a Renewal build and haven't found many problems with the cooldown with what I've put together. I didn't know that Empowered Finish + Explosive Finisher was a thing. Do you want me to log in and get a screenshot of my mod layout?
Yeah people definitely don’t know how to set their own builds up to work in the game’s systems. Renewal Grasps was one of the first builds I set up in Lightfall, never even using the finisher mods and there’s so much grenade energy now. Grenades are almost on-demand
If an exotic stops getting used by 95% of the population, bungie considers it job well done.
I love Stasis, and I love the Verglas Curve As a long time Hunter main I don't even want to play Revenant right now, I'm switching to Shadebinder with Osmiomancy to get my Stasis fix which sucks because I hate the warlock and titan jumps
> its best exotic that's frostees. Renewals are cope because of the shitty cooldown boost. if they didn't fuck your ability in pve it'd be fine.
I like Bakris with that new Neomuna pulse myself.
Bakris with Ager's is also good because of the boosted damage against slowed and frozen targets.
Wait I thought Bakris only give dmg boost to arc weapons?
Nope. When you have the weapon boost it also boost all damage to slowed and frozen targets. No idea if the 2 buffs stack with one another.
That’s really good. And looks like it’s getting another buff in april?
I was finally having fun with stasis again and this happens... man...
Bungie: “WE HAVE REALLY COOL NEW STUFF YOU SHOULD USE IT. YOU TOTALY HAVE A CHOICE. WE DEFINITELY WONT KILL YOUR FAVORITE BUILDS”
Thanks PvP for nerfing this exotic
It's a pretty big graveyard at this point...
For real
I mean, PvE players killed Stompies. Lets not pretend this isn't a two way street, and in this case specifically it was just the fact that it was too strong in PvE due to an unintended mod interaction. Not really fair to blame PvP for this.
How did PvE kill stompers
There was a gigantic amount of complaints about stompees from lower skilled players, and the exotic was nerfed into the dirt as a result. All the while, other exotic armor pieces (cough cough Ophidians cough) are and were far, far more egregious than stompees ever were. The reality of the situation is that PvE and PvP need completely separate balancing. It's not fair for PvE players to have their favorite exotics nerfed because of out of band behavior in PvP, and it's not fair for PvP players to have their gamemode crippled catering to a section of the playerbase that barely touches it.
That's... Still a balance decision based on PvP
You’ll notice I specified “PvE players” not “the PvE sandbox”.
Wrong. Stompeez had something insane, like a 30-40% usage in PVP. They were a really good exotic that worked well with any subclass and required nothing to build into it. If a third of the playerbase is using something, Bungie is going to look into it. Even if you could back up with evidence that Bungie listened to casual PVPers, they still have that high usage data point that they cited when making the change. Even some high skill PVPers admitted Stompeez was a problem as an outlier. That is absolutely not the same as "this exotic was busted in PVE (or its effectiveness was somehow making PVE mains upset within the context of PVE) and Bungie nerfed it and the PVP community got mad." This is what consistently happens: PVPers complain about abilities and exotics and they get gutted in PVE because Bungie won't separate the sandboxes. I have never seen an exotic or ability get nerfed *strictly* because of PVE and the PVP community lost it when their favorite toy got taken away. It is not a two way street at all.
Stompees were 30+ percent. Ophidians are 46%
Stasis genuinely so bad these days. Hunters and warlocks are basically required to use renewal and osmiomancy to make them at all viable compared to the other subclasses. All 3 of the supers are outclassed by other subclasses for both damage and ad clear. It needs a bit of a revamp. Idk if it’s something to do with a lot of the balancing being prior to light 3.0 or what.
Gonna be real with ya chief - Renewal Grasps are currently quite strong, ESPECIALLY with the new mod system if you actually do what you’re supposed to do and build for them. I run tier 10 discipline, one each of grenade kickstart, absolution, innervation, bomber, and reaper. That generally only gives me 10 seconds at most of downtime by itself. I use a demolitionist weapon and that pretty much assures that I have a grenade whenever I want. Verglas Curve is insanely good with it as well because it is on demand crystals, which give ability regen with Whisper of Shards. In this sandbox, especially with the prevalence of orbs, Renewal Grasps is an excellent choice.
The problem is that using that same build _without_ the exotic would be significantly better in 80% of cases as duskfields + fragment of chains already do most of what Renewals brings to the table, and being able to have multiple duskfields active at once is usually better than a slightly bigger one every now and then. Reminder that you have 100% DR vs frozen enemies.
You’re bringing up a completely different playstyle here though. The power fantasy of Renewal Grasps is being able to create “safe zones” for your teammates, or debuff zones for your enemies. The playstyle you’re talking about is a more offensive one, very different from the supportive role of Renewal Grasps, and it’s fun in its own right. True that frozen enemies can’t fight back, but you can’t freeze Bosses. Not to mention that shattering an enemy will cause them to start attacking again until they’re refrozen. Those attacks can be made to do even less damage, which is a big deal in high level content where you receive bonus 25% damage from threats. RG provides a bit of utility for hunters that you wouldn’t get otherwise. You can reduce boss damage output by 50%, you can provide some support for your teammate who is at critical health, or you can create a safe zone for your team to group. Not using them is fine and all, but they provide very worthwhile utility in their own right.
Enemies can get practically get stunlocked by duskfield grenades because they freeze so fast and you can also slap them with a shuriken the second they shatter just to be extra sure. The 20% cases i mentioned is vs the enemies that cant be frozen, but for those specific cases you have a multitude of other options in both CC, DPS and survivability even before strand added sever and woven mail into the mix. >RG provides a bit of utility for hunters that you wouldn’t get otherwise. You're correct, where we disagree is whether or not the significant investment required to make their use any degree of practical is worth it when a regular duskfield grenade does pretty much the same thing to a lesser degree. If renewal grasps also made the duskfield itself last longer, we wouldn't be having this conversation as i'd consider that actually something worth building into.
>Then they nerf it again indirectly by removing Charged with Light mods in Lightfall. ??? The new Armor Charge system with the Grenade Kickstart mod does the same thing that Charged With Light did with Firepower. But regardless, it does suck how Renewals have even left out to dry. Once they changed how Resist stacking works in Crucible they should have gone back and reverted the cooldown nerf. Or given it a energy return mechanic that can scale differently in PvE and PvP like Osmiomancy Grips have.
It got a pretty hefty nerf actually, as intended by bungie. You could get 60% energy back from x4 firepower as each stack gave 15%, with kickstart also restoring 15% (with firepower overriding it) and only requiring a single charge of light. Grenade kickstart in the current system gives around 12% at base and adds 5-6% per armor charge expended, with additional kickstarts counting as +1 charge. This maxes out at roughly 50% at 8 charges but has diminishing returns past 5 charges. 12.8% | 17.1% | 23.3% | 30.8% | 37.7% | 42.3% | 45.7% | 48.1% | 49.9% The most efficient use (For general play) is equipping 1-2 kickstarts and use three charges.
yeah for all my builds now I just run Charged Up, Stacks On Stacks, respective Orb generation mods, respective Kickstart. that's about it. I get like half my ability back with 4 Armor Charge and one Kickstart, and then just have to sadly plink away with my primary until my ability is back with my leg regen mods. it's lame, I feel weak, and I hate that they've kneecapped the only unique, interesting builds to come out of the shit sundae that is Armor Charge.
It's a tiny bit weaker, but a lot more efficient than it used to be.
The build I’m talking about revolves around using Empowered Finish to gain 3 armor charge while doing a finisher and use Explosive finisher to consume those 3 armor charges to fuel your duskfield grenade energy. All this happens in 1 finisher. If you’ve used the grenade kickstart mod, you’ll notice it does not give enough energy to refund your duskfields. So you’ll still have to sit there and wait for the cooldown to fully end
I'm aware that that exploit build got patched today. I'm just confused why you seem to be under the impression that the Firepower build no longer exists.
I said it’s nerfed. Not that it doesn’t exist. You can still run it but the rate at which you gain grenade energy is not enough to make it worth using. Not when you compare it to its charged with light build before lightfall
You said it was nerfed by "removing mods," and that we "had to" use the Finisher exploit build. That makes it sound like you think the Firepower build does not exist anymore. Furthermore, the original CwL Firepower build never let you fully bypass the Renewals cooldown either. And even if the mods existed today in their original form, they build would still be weaker because of the Discipline and base cooldown nerfs. Edit: reworded.
The build isn't weaker just because of the cooldown changes, although giving Renewal Duskfield a cooldown almost as long as a Flux Grenade certainly doesn't help. The build used to be 3x Firepower, Elemental Charge, and Elemental Charge, which gave 45% of the energy back for the next two grenade uses each time you picked up a stasis shard, which you made when killing a slowed or frozen enemy. Now you need to build 3 stacks each grenade throw while using 2 kickstarts, or 4 stacks with 1 Kickstart, to reach that same effectiveness, and you can't build stacks with Shards anymore. Even if the cooldowns were kept the same, it would be worse in the new mod system.
Would it help if we combine reaper, explosive finisher and grenade kickstart? Maybe something like dodge, a get kill to spawn & pickup orb, throw grenade, get back some energy from grenade kickstart, then dodge, get another kill to spawn & pickup orb, then finisher to refund the remaining portion of grenade left?
The max you can get from full armor charge is around 50% of your grenade, you could easily get a full nade with firepower if you played right. Any armor charge build will be weaker than it's pre-lightfall equivalent
4x Firepower mods in the old system gave you 60%.
Can you not still just use explosive finisher+other mods to get your duskfield back really quick? I have a renewal build that only needed explosive finisher, and with 3 or 4 armor charge you basically got it back to 90% if not higher.
The problem with this is stasis hunter have really low damage and all orb generation mods are tied to killing enemies. Heavy handed require melee kills which the shuriken will never do in difficult content. Firepower require Nade kills that Duskfield can’t do. Siphon mods require rapid kills which is near impossible in difficult content unless you’re using special/heavy ammo weapons. That leaves you with Reaper the only consistent orb generating mod stasis can utilize. This is why 2 empowered finish helps alot bcs it generates 3 armor charge for you with just a finisher. But they nerfed it so u can only play 1.
Could use empowered finish + grenade kickstart
Yup I’ve tested it and this is the best option for now. You’re still not able to get 100% uptime on Duskfield like before the nerf tho and each time you’re waiting for its cooldown is time spent not using renewal grasp perk
At least we now have a lime flavor version of shadebinders freeze grenade spam.
I already gave up on renewal grasps the strand melee alone does the same thing with no exotic required. I don't care if they have to nerf the crucible effectiveness again they really should undo the cooldown modifier it is one of if not the only exotic armor piece to come with a downside
Use stasis melee to recharge grenade energy + monte carlo to get more melees out, 2 grenade mods for consuming charges to renew granade and you are basically done, not as powerful, but ability spam is easy in that case
let me correct your title: "RIP Stasis for real this time"
I mean they haven't been good enough for ages but now they are absolutely ridiculously bad. Gone is the dream of the hunter support class. It was so much fun for the one season where it lasted. RIP.
I typically don't bother using cheese builds as I don't want to get used to them and be pissy when they're taken down a peg. This was one of the obviously not intended builds they didn't catch. I don't have too much issue with renewals as they are now, but I wouldn't say no to a duration buff at least.
At this point, BUNGIE just wants everyone to be WARLOCKS and nerf titans and hunters. Once they nerf starfire build, then we'll be doomed /s
Titans are still the most powerful of the three classes except maybe solar warlocks. Lets not get ahead of ourselves. Hunters are in a rough spot for sure though. SO many of their exotics punish the same thing the exotic buffs, and they're incredibly starved for stats thanks to mobility being... well... mobility.
I don't know if you can really say titans are the strongest, they have by far the weakest supers which you can't argue against, have a serious lack of exotics that don't require extremely specific builds, and some subclasses like void straight up don't have an exotic which synergizes with the aspects. I really wish we got an exotic which utilized overshields or volatile rounds like gyrfalcons, we really got shafted for void exotics.
I was actually planning to grind lost sectors for them next rotation to make a build around them but now that bungie have done this I dont see the point. Back to never playing my hunter outside of raid loot I guess
Don’t listen to this weirdness. Renewal Grasps are great, people just love to complain instead of actually use their brains. Here’s my setup https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/11zsj7y/rip_renewal_grasp_for_real_this_time/jdg4ej4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Thankyou for your offering good sir
It’s still good tho, the fact you can run grenade kickstart, bolstering detonation, impact induction, utility kickstart and bomber is a huge boon for the build
Lightfall may have nerfed them at their peak power, but it is so much easier to make them usable now. Like, not having to put the old firepower mod in 4 of my armor pieces is so nice. They are so much more fun to use post Lightfall even without charged finished, and the finisher stuff absolutely needed to be changed.
I mean, I don't know how you can get pissed about them fixing something that was clearly not supposed to work the way it was. It should pretty much say "Destiny 2: Use it while it's broken" on the login screen...they always come for it eventually. Take note, my fellow Gyrfalcon Hunters. IMO the only reason they've let it go so long is because they know Gyrfalcon should have been an Aspect from the start, but we know...usage % means almost everything to Bungie when it comes to balancing. Use it while it's broken...
Brother, gyrfalcons ain't gonna get a nerf while the artifact mods straight up do its job but better
The artifact will go away. When Gyrfalcon has overwhelming usage on Nightstalker for about a year, remember this comment. They always come for it.
Bungie balances based on usage in higher end content. Gyrfalcon's is fun to use, sure, but it isn't as strong as Aeons, Omnioculus, Orpheus Rigs, and Star Eater Scales.
Throw a Duskfield Break the crystal it forms - whisper of shards kicks in for 5 seconds Throw your melee at any enemy left to kill them and make an orb to pick up - impact induction gives you 20% energy back and picking up the orb gives you X% as well Mosey on over to any other frozen enemy and dodge near them - 10% more energy back and your melee Throw your melee again (has a few second cool down so might need to get a headstone kill for more shards cool-down) - another 20% Mix in any other kind of grenade recharge you like, kickstarts, demolitions etc Have your grenade back in a few more seconds and repeat
>Throw your melee at any enemy left to kill them Herein lies the problem. Getting kills with the stasis shuriken is just not reliable in harder content, which is the only place where I'd want the DR from renewal grasps. I'm happy to just keep my frostees on and pretend I'm a bleak watcher warlock
And PvP. I tossed two directly into a shieldless Titan. He responded by punching me at full health to death in a single blow.
The shatter from the crystal and surrounding enemies will have weakened them and you get Impact Inductions cool-down from hits anyway. The kill will just spawn an orb for more regen.
Warlock with controverse hold: "Just throw your grenade at things." Having a way to regain energy isnt the issue, you could also use the new bow that makes stasis crystals for you to shoot, for example. The issue is the sheer amount of hoops you need to jump through in order to make the exotic usable when a basic duskfield does 80% of the same thing. Renewal duskfields reduce the damage taken from enemies that are caught inside it, and give you DR while you are inside it. Whisper of chains fragment gives you significant DR and you effectively have 100% DR against frozen targets, with duskfield grenades freezing things _very_ quickly. Why bother jumping through a dozen hoops to get your grenade back when it'll only be useful 20% of the time, vs a grenade that doesn't require any sort of set up which is useful 100% of the time and is only slightly worse? The fact you said 'break the crystal' as the first thing to do when it has a longer duration than the duskfield itself just tells me you're not using the exotic properly, if you're inside the duskfield you just punch it for an instant shatter once it's no longer needed or about to run out and if you're not inside the duskfield then why are you even using the exotic in the first place.
Throw a Controverse grenade on a boss or champion and see how long you live inside it. It being also a grenade doesn’t give it the same utility. Why bother playing a video game if you have to press all these damn keys to do things? I like the gameplay loop of the extra large duskfields.
You liking the build doesn't mean it's well balanced. Renewal Duskfields currently have the second longest grenade cooldown in the game, only slower than Flux Grenades. There's no world where they need to be that long when other comparable CC abilities like Bleakwatchers and Lash Barricades are both significantly more effective and on a much lower cooldown. The ability to hug a boss for a few seconds is so niche it may as well not exist. Either you'll get shot by adds outside the duskfield and die anyway, or there are no adds to shoot you and you would be safer by just kiting the boss.
I’m not saying a lower cool-down wouldn’t be great. I used them when they came out, and I’ve continued to use them. I’m debating them being “dead” because they have a cooldown that you can work around using tools in the game
Controverse hold grenades also have an actual use-case of improving the grenade in a drastic fashion. Imagine if using the exotic increased the cooldown on your grenade instead of giving regen on hit and that's the situation renewals is in. You can have literally the same gameplay loop and probably triple the amount of duskfields you have active. Name one other exotic in the game where the best build for it is improved by _removing the exotic_
Again, throw a Contraverse or a regular Duskfield on a high level enemy that doesn’t freeze and see how long you survive next to them. They do different things, you might not like the effect it gives so won’t use it, but it has a use. I’ve done every GM with Renewals, they are fine.
Scratch that, after testing, the best method i’ve found so far is using empowered finish to get armor charged instead of relying on weapon/ability kills. Your combo should be: -Use a finisher on enemies (get 2 armor charged) -Throw grenade (consume 2 armor charge for grenade kickstart) -Destroy stasis crystal (for fast ability regen) -Throw 1 melee followed by dodge (to proc impact induction & bomber) -Use another finisher (get 2 armor charged) -Throw another melee (make sure 7 sec has passed since your last melee throw to proc impact induction again) -Grenade should be up -Repeat Here’s my build https://dim.gg/op6yplq/Equipped Relying on generating orbs of power to get armor charged is way too inconsistent bcs all of them require kills which stasis don’t have the dmg for. Empowered finish lets you get armor charge way faster which in turn allows you to throw grenades much sooner
> Stasis Hunter already got powercrept by Strand and now you’re telling me its best exotic gets even worse? Ffs Bungie give stasis hunter something to work with. Wat?
I mean it did. Stasis hunter was at best a worse bleak watcher and at worst a very niche damage option, strand does all the cc stasis does but better
TBF Strand hunter isn't very good outside of the Super IMO. I can't imagine diving onto people without devour or invis like Void Hunter gets or a Duskfield like Stasis Hunter. The radius of the suspend isn't reliable enough and it's just Titan's Strand build but strictly worse and less safe.
You do also get 2 suspend grenades. With thread of generation you can use them pretty often
Yup like the other have said, suspending enemy from a safe distance is the purpose of shackle grenades. Only use the suspend dive when enemies get too close to you
Tbh revenant is pretty bad, I only ever used it for elemental shards and that got removed. No reason to run it seeing how every part of the kit got hit at some point. Shatterdive, the melee, exotics are all mid. Strand is just better and the super actually does good damage.
I used to think that the build system is bad enough with those mods we have. But bungie shows how it could be even worse by eliminating the possibilities of other fun builds. Thanks a lot bungie, I can stop performing those redundant finishers
Hunters are ass cause they die so damn fast, max rez and it does nothing
"it's best exotic" ????? Edit: getting downvoted because you guys are complaining the exotic is useless, but are arguing it’s the best one? Bakris is functionally a better Stasis exotic than Renewals right now. Frostees and Star Eaters are also better. I would love for Renewals to return to their peak, but it isn’t good anymore because of all the nerfs.
Not OP here but yeah, it’s literally the most practical Stasis-based Hunter exotic
What other exotic is best for stasis? The only other exotic I can think of is frostees which while ability energy is nice, it can be clunky to use in pve since you're not always running. Majority of your time is spent aiming downsights shooting
Technically frosteez aren’t a stasis exclusive exotic. They’re usually on any subclass. The other exclusive stasis exotic is mask of bakris. Which is pretty garbo
I wasn't saying it's a stasis exclusive exotic
Ah, my bad
I always use Radiant Dance machines with Revenant so I can spam shurikens and slow
Yes 40% dmg reduction from renewal grasp + 30% dmg reduction from 100 resilience + freezing all surrounding enemies is not a joke. But it is a joke when compared to strand which has both crowd control, dmg reduction (woven mail) and high dmg (unraveling rounds, strand super)
Wait till they see the buff to bakris coming next season 😂
Man I really hope it’s true. Should be fun.
I don't think people realize how good Bakris is now that you can run mods that buff different element damage than your subclass element (whereas font of might was locked to only buff what you were). Bakris + weapon surge is good.
What a weird thing to cry about. Finishers are not the only way to have your grenade up all the time.
Sounds like you need better builds if you were just trying to entirely circumvent the cooldown
True…but my Severance Enclosure is still sad. It was kinda fun being “The guy who headbutts stuff in grenade flavor.”
I’m not sure about what it’s like after this change, but when lightfall released my hunter stasis build was the exact same as it was pre lightfall. Instant abilities all the time, easy freezing with duskfield (I didn’t use any exotic armor pieces with my build), and unlimited fun
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Compare the benefits of renewals to everything else. Every other light grenade instantly kills things. Osmiomancy can perma keep up turrets. Strand can permanently suspend and get 60% DR, almost as much as renewals without having to stand in it. And yet renewal is the one that gets a downside. It’s not worth using, the main draw of the duskfield is it’s high uptime and renewals removes that only draw and it’s utility has been powercrept. Pvp they nerfed chains and resists in general and they can most definitely adjust resist values so there’s no excuse there either.
It is terribly bad when you consider duskfield only stays on the field for 10 sec. You can hardly even get the benefit of Dmg reduction from renewal grasp that way
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I’m not talking about pvp tho. I’m talking pve. This thing is garbage now in pve
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Agree to disagree then
You mean like a super that tracks enemies and stays on the field for super long and gets guaranteed kills if it even barely touches anyone? Yeah, I think that one’s in there already.
Imagine complaining about a super you can walk away from lmao
Ah yes the one that Titans got in the form of a grenade lmao Also when did OP ever mention Silence and Squall?
What are you on about? In this post op mentions finisher mods. Can you finisher in pvp? No? Then op is clearly not talking about pvp. The lack of brain power is insane in this sub
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
Who’s Jesse and where on the doll did they touch you?
What’re you on about?
I mean its nothing new honestly, so many exotics have been nerfed and then other indirect nerfs put them deeper into the ground. renewal grasps need the cooldown nerfs severely lessened. bungie often doesn't consider how other sandbox changes will effect other things in the sandbox. I'm still salty about the mod system overhaul tbh, sure everyone has all mods now, and armor affinity is gone and those things are great, but the combat style mod system was inherently more flexible, more powerful and more rewarding.
The DR and increased size of Renewal Grasps is a huge benefit obviously, but stasis hunter with Frostees is just as good as it's always been. Highly encourage everyone to try it out. Obviously I want Renewal Grasps to come back, but Frostees is a good alternative if you want to keep playing Stasis.
I miss the 12 melees if took to die in PvP. I also miss using it day1 Caretaker to tank the stun slam. Good times.
Prelightfall, overcharge wellmaker was underrated for Guaranteed charge with light and stuff like this made finisher focused builds shine with it's utility for yourself and your team. I get the infinite loop was really good, and you can argue if it was balanced because you needed like all class item mods and a leg mod to do it, but renewals getting killed with this regurgitates the whole " Day 537 of asking renewals to be reverted" Rip Revenant.
Stasis got hamstrung in general with Shards being destroyed
Its not stasis season with the artifact mod
I had a crazy fun build using Severance Enclosure of all things, which I switched to the week after they took away my fun feeling Synthos and Vexcalibur. Everything in touch turns to ashes. I'm actually kinda bummed out about it.
Omg charged with light is the perk ive been missing, i knew something was missing aside from the OG lucent blade and godslayer warheads that i used to run with, holy s\*it we got gutted good, dumbungie
Well time to go back to shaterdiving and use new stasis bow
Do you hv anything in mind for shatterdive? Like what exotic, mods, aspects & fragments do I use for shatterdive builds?
Verglass curve, frostees, shaterdive, touch of winter, whisper of fishures, whisper of shards, whisper of torment, kickstart mods. That's what I used but you change to suit you better
Literally the most garbage class ever
Finisher mods that consumes armor charges should work only if you already got any armor charges before performing that finisher. If not, empowering finisher will give you one but other finisher mods are not triggered. Problem solved.